Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?

[fireeater]

None of the maps represent the full picture. Both Miss Universe and Miss World, have been around since 1952, and 1951. That is just short of sixty years, yet one has data for only 19 years and the other for only 15 years.   

[hemingway]

1msmoby,

yes,I can't keep talking to you because I need to learn how to use English words "bullshit, stupid, silly,HATE,  f. off,etc" .

Wait, I will come back to you when I will learn and we will talk.

[Boris]

None of the maps represent the full picture. Both Miss Universe and Miss World, have been around since 1952, and 1951. That is just short of sixty years, yet one has data for only 19 years and the other for only 15 years.   

I think Link might have only been interested in going back to approximately the time Ukraine became independent. Just a guess.

[jb]

you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.

On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.

NONSENSE.. you have made this statement before.. the border with Russia is relatively new.. please tell us how  an ethnic "Russian" lady from Belgorad is "culturally" different from Kharkov ?  A Ukrainian who feels Ukrainian ethnically - is likely to feel VERY differently than a Ukrainian ethnic Russian - who may actively REJECT Ukrainian "culture"

Veta has an old school friend who married a Russian guy and they ended up in UA ( Kiev) for 19 years.. are you saying they / the kids would be culturally different, now ?

It's not like the borders are hard to cross

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15975620@N00/23686645/

Probally for exactly the same reasons an astute Texans feels the tension; and is out of his elemit. or feeling "Out of sorts", on stage when he crosses the same state lines between LA, or OKLAHOMA.

[msmoby]

moby, you are so thick-sculled...not a surprise to see you coming out with a statement like this!It takes a native to understand cultural differences because they are not as obvious to a westerner, particularly a westerner with a thick skull who "thinks" he knows it all!

Hello, Ed !

thanks for your "rational" response..

I don't see one objective counter to my point, either... I wonder WHY?

Lastly, this "thick skulled westener" has lived, and worked with Russian and Ukrainian speakers for the last nine years - has worked and travelled EXTENSIVELY in the FSU and the view I posted are also the views of my Wife and my best mate Alexey - a former officer in the Red and Russian Army ... Last time you expressed such views - if you remember - they were brought up over a meal with FSU friends.. UA / RU based ...they didn't agree with you EITHER...

[TomT]

Interested readers ought to research the Holodomor of 1933.

[mirror]

When I see a term "Holodomor" it means that it was written by somebody - proukrainian foreigner,who knows nothing about Russian hystory or who doesn't want to get a truth.

[fireeater]

When I see a term "Holodomor" it means that it was written by somebody - proukrainian foreigner,who knows nothing about Russian hystory or who doesn't want to get a truth.

Mirror

I would say it is one reason Ukrainians may not like Russians, and I am sure there are similar events, that Russians have for their feelings about Ukrainians.  Neither country would have a clean slate for different events, considering the different types of rulership in both countries, that have occurred over the last century.     

[mirror]

Holodomor is not a reason.

Read a sentence in my previous post. 

[mirror]

For people who doesn't know Russian hystory a term "Holodomor" makes feel sorry for Ukr and makes to hate Russians.
You can find everything in internet so read before to say something against Russians.

[fireeater]

Mirror

I would say this statement gives reason for Holodomor to cause friction between the two countires. 

The reasons of the famine are the subject of intense scholarly and political debate. Some historians claim the famine was purposely engineered by the Soviet authorities to attack Ukrainian nationalism, while others view it as an unintended consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during Soviet industrialization.


In another words, intentional ? or just an unfortunate natural event   ?

[mirror]

Holodomor is a Ukr term so who uses this term is Ukr or proukrainian. We,Russians,name  : " A hunger".
It is not a friction between the two countires like a reason why this term came on a political scene.

I don't want to sound like an expert but I take this argument differently from you-Westerns.

[fireeater]

Mirror

Considering the Ukrainian Government has passed a motion calling it genocide, yet the Russians claim another side to this, I would say some friction occurs over it. I do know it is a Ukrainian word, not a a Russian one from what I read.  I like the sound of the hunger better, it represent the event.   

But considering experts can not agree on the cause, I doubt if us Westerners have any clue as to what was the cause. Other then the fact a lot of people died, which can be acknowledge as a tragedy, in any ones mind, including Russians.   

[2tallbill]

Mirror is jealous of Ukrainian women. It's as simple as that. She
feels superior to them for reasons that are apparent only to her.
Men tend to go to Ukraine because of easier visa restrictions and
that really grinds her gears. So....

She tells us that Ukrainian women are all tramps blah, blah, blah.
They all have wombs filled with radiation yada, yada yada. They
are all traitors and so on and so forth.

I kinda wonder how this Ukrainian defamation campaign program
is working. I doubt that she has attracted many followers that now
say "Yeah I need to find a warm, pleasant, sweet and loving woman
just like angry offensive old Milaya Mirror.

[anjutka]

Bill...i thought you a kind guy))))....mirror represent here opinion which russian people have 8)...may be the way how she put it you foreigners cant except)))) but when we think deep about topic -she just says all kind of stereotypes which exists in Russia among russian......are you all dont see obvious things and ready to blame for such stereotypes one particular person?)))

holodomor is sensitive topic which can create a lot missunderstanding...same as great patriotic war II, soviet army in soviet time in baltics,politic of Russia ......etc etc etc....before start to argue, really all -take mirror's advice and study history that's will help

[Manny]

mirror represent here opinion which russian people have

No. She represents here the opinion that *some* Russian people have. Quite different.

For others, Wiki says about Holodomor this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

This was almost 80 years ago, and during Soviet times. To hold a grudge because of it today is akin to a European holding a grudge against Germany today for the actions of the Nazis. For a Russian to hold a grudge against Ukraine because of it today, seems odd as it was Ukrainians and Moldovans that suffered?

[Voyager]

...mirror represent here opinion which russian people have 8)..

And you are Russian, yet very polite to Ukrainian girls. Why is that?

[anjutka]

mirror represent here opinion which russian people have

No. She represents here the opinion that *some* Russian people have. Quite different.

 
 

what?)))))how do you know)))) who russian from russia -you or  me ?)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[anjutka]

...mirror represent here opinion which russian people have 8)..

And you are Russian, yet very polite to Ukrainian girls. Why is that?

well....if you may be dont well know russian...i remain you))))..we are very friendly to all nations)) very very)))....until we notice that they are in fact not friends for us)) we always pay back same what we got :biggrin:that's it)) no more no less )) 

[Eduard]

As far as Holodomor, I'm not sure why Ukraine would blame Russian people. Soviet government, communist elite are the ones to blame IMHO. And this elite included all former USSR ethnic groups or as they called it during Soviet time "nationalities". Ukrainians were just as involved in the Soviet movement as Russians and if we are going to play this "ethnic blame game" then why not blame Georgians??? Holodomor happened during the time Stalin (I mean Joseph, not Dan) was in power and Stalin was responsible for millions of deaths of ethnic Russians, Ukrainians alone with all other ethnic groups who happened to be subjects of the USSR. Once this paranoid, narcissistic maniac - Stalin ceased power Russian people had just as little say (or no say would be more accurate) as Ukrainians or any other nationality of the USSR, so the only logical thing would be to blame him and the political regime that put him there and not the ordinary people who had absolutely no power.

[mirror]

But considering experts can not agree on the cause, I doubt if us Westerners have any clue as to what was the cause. Other then the fact a lot of people died, which can be acknowledge as a tragedy, in any ones mind, including Russians.  

In Russia people died much more than in Ukr so why should we take a Holodomor like a genocide?

In Volga area people were eating each other from a hunger in a period 1919-1924,it was a Bashkirian territory also. I know  about "a hunger" from my grandparents.
2tallball,yes,you are right,pity I am not Ukr to blame Russians  for this "a hunger" and to ask United Nations to recognise me as a victim of genocidy.

[mirror]

Of course I am jealous of Ukr women they being prost., having radiation,
being traitors, even having Holodomor (2Tallball,you forgot to remind it ) .
Bravo,2tallball,you got to the core me.

[mirror]

Manny ,

I see you don't know anything about Russian hystory also.You have an opportunity to ask your wife's grandparents about this time of "Prodrasverstka" and "Collectivisation".Why not to use this opportunity? If they were living in an area around Volga they should know more about it.

[Wild Orchid]

Wild Orchid

Marke may be right about that competition results Checking on Canada's history with Miss World, we only started in 2003 having a contestant.

That is how you are checking? From the time when Canada started participating? I don't follow Canada involvement in beauty contests, and that is exactly what i was talking about - ANY beauty contests, where the most beautiful women of Ukraine are destined to win but for some "strange" reason not winning. 

The Miss World pageant is the oldest surviving major international beauty pageant. It was created in the United Kingdom by Eric Morley in 1951. Since his death in 2000, Morley's wife, Julia Morley, co-chairs the pageant.

Miss Universe contest started in 1952. Canada won it twice in 1982 and 2005. The winner of 2005 is Natalie Glebova - Russian Canadian born in Tuapse Russia , so her beauty is Russian any way.

Miss Earth 2007 is Canadian Jessica Trisko, her father is father is of Ukrainian-Russian heritage, and her mother is Filipino.

Miss Ukraine 2001 is quite famous, she was a semi-finalist  in Miss Universe, didn't win anything except for the heart of aging millionaire.  He was 72 and she was 26 when they got married, but kind of  predictable, don't you think? 



Back to when it all started for Ukraine

Miss Ukraine is a national beauty contest in Ukraine and was first held in 1991 in the "Palace of Ukraine".

Trying for 18 years now, and no winners so far.. It doesn't say Ukrainians aren't beautiful, it just says that they don't have anything to prove that they are 

The reasons of the famine are the subject of intense scholarly and political debate. Some historians claim the famine was purposely engineered by the Soviet authorities to attack Ukrainian nationalism, while others view it as an unintended consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during Soviet industrialization.

Let's read...

About 40 million people were affected by the food shortages including areas near Moscow where mortality rates increased by 50%. The center of the famine, however, was Ukraine and surrounding regions, including the Don, the Kuban, the Northern Caucasus and Kazakhstan where the toll was one million dead.

How Don and Kuban, Caucasus and Kazakhstan all became parts of Ukraine but not big parts of Russia, Kazakhstan obliviously and other independent regions I don't know. The famine (not proUkrainiane holodomor) happened in Russia as well, it was the result of Soviet government at that time, and I'm tired of stressing out that most of that Government wasn't Russian to start with but it is easier to blame Russia for everything that happened in the past.

this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union explains that there was no area in Soviet Union not affected by those tactics. All nations suffered, not only Ukrainians, but this point of view doesn't suit Ukrainians what so ever.

Lets talk instead about who rebuilt Ukraine after WWII and changed her from agricultural country of peasants into industrial country. Did Russian people get any credit for that? Silly question, I know  :

[Wild Orchid]

Mirror is jealous of Ukrainian women. It's as simple as that. She
feels superior to them for reasons that are apparent only to her.
Men tend to go to Ukraine because of easier visa restrictions and
that really grinds her gears. So....

Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous? Because you can go to Ukraine without visa and for that reason she missed out on men like you? I don't think it is her loss. Seriously, if you made your decision only on visa regulations, it says a lot about you.

Personally I have more respect for men who were not stopped by some remote places like Barnaul for example, or Vladivostok, if that is where woman happened to live. If you choose to go the road that thousands before you walked, I don't know who is really missing out . All that situation with attracting foreigners to visit Ukraine without visa reminds me after Christmas sale

And this elite included all former USSR ethnic groups or as they called it during Soviet time "nationalities". Ukrainians were just as involved in the Soviet movement as Russians

I agree with Ed... It wasn't like Red army from Siberia was send to rob Ukrainians of their harvest, it was done by their local Ukrainian communists. And you know who was the most active in all this raskulachivanie - the laziest and most unsuccessful people, who didn't have anything of their own but wanted to have somebody else's.