Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?

[sparky114]

The ONLY *relevant* difference to WM *MIGHT* be the UA based lady *MIGHT* have had more contact with WM...  

And that is not a good thing IMO.

I am beginning to agree with you. 

One of reasons I chose not to fish that pond!!!!!

[fireeater]

LOL.  Well, your "superior Soviet education" is certainly demonstrable.  

How old are you? I wonder who was teaching you while you were getting your degree, nor Soviet professors?

The same question goes to Ed... Weren't you brainwashed while you were growing up in Russia? You were not taken out of SU at birth, you parents are products of Soviet propaganda as mush as mine are..  Why always jump on this "she is brainwashed" wagon? Propaganda exists everywhere and you are affected by it as much as any Russian person.

Russia has only won once, for Miss Universe, and she ended her reign early.

Russia won Miss World twice.


Ukraine is independent for 18 years, but instead of moving forward it keeps blaming Russia for all it's misfortunes past and present and even Big Brother that payed for Orange revolution can't help it. Too bad..  :

What would you call a second generation Canadian. One who's parents were born in Russia, but the child was born here. Russian or Canadian. ?

If Canadian girl of Chinese descent would win Miss Universe would you say that it is Canadian  beauty? If there is no mixed blood in the girl and she was born in Russia as far as her looks are concerned she is Russian. I was told recently that i have Russian face, Australian citizenship didn't change it much. 

You must have special powers. Our Current Miss world is of Chinese descent, but born in this city, in 1987.    But what is a Canadian, or American, we all came from somewhere else, at some time in the past.  But I also expects she identifies with her original culture as well. As for me, I doubt if I could figure out if one had a Russian face or was from another country. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Ma

[msmoby]

Moby, I'm not going to have a conversation with a man who IMO lacks in deeper intelligence.

That's a KOP out answer - plain and simple.. my questions put to you were VERY simple..

You've made a few trips and base all of your opinions on that and on "I asked my wife and she told me..." If I had a one on one conversation with your wife her and I might agree on a lot more points than we would disagree. You on the other hand consistently call any opinion that I express "nonesense" which is disrespectful and childish.

Well, Ed. IF you'd read my "white noise" you'd have realised that I'd made more than a few trips.. as I have - over the last eight years had a business that derives income from Russia... I have Russian and UA based business partners and have travelled EXTENSIVELY in the FSU.  I have lived with and worked with Russian speakers for all that time. We discuss Politics and Cultural differences ALL the time.. we have plenty of heated after dinner debates..

I have studied your nations history and literature since 15 years old. So my interest in your part of the world is NOT confined to ladies!

I don't disagree with "EVERYTHING" you say.. mainly it is your Ru v UA women generalisations with which I have "issues"...


There is nothing "childish" about contesting SOME of those

Most of what you post is like white noise to me that I rarely bother to read or sometimes when I do start reading I quit after a few sentences. A lot of white noise, Moby.
If you want some one to have a debate with you:
1. show some respect
2. try to focus on one topic at a time and not bundle up 10 different topics in one post which makes it impossible to address for any one who's got limited time, got things to do and a family to attend to.

Oh dear Ed,

I think you'll find my questions are EXTREMELY precise - it's just you make a big song and dance - questioning my intelligence - rather than addressing them

[Chris]

Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?

Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.

Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.

You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.

Can you deny the fact that Americans think that all Russians-communists and there are a red threat from Russia ?

First I didn't create this thread, you will probably not have noticed but I have not been around for most of August as I have been travelling abroad.

Second I will debate the rest of your comments on this thread with you once I have had time to catch up, but I see others are already streets ahead of you though and doing a good job anyway  

I am only glad my wife is not here to read this as she would give you Mirror some not very nice first hand accounts of life in Ukraine, specifically Western Ukraine under Soviet occupation and the affect it had on her and many thousands of other families.

[msmoby]

YES.. it IS a silly question...given the choice most ethnic Ukrainians didn't WANT the Red Army marching back into Kiev (1920 and 1943) to "save" them from independence !

That's what happened when you live in a place that called Ukraine (Okraina - on the border, on the outskirts). Outskirts of what? It is not like Red Army barged to India or South Africa or Egypt or Sudan or Indochina or many other countries that England made itself at home. If Okraina was Okraina of Russia, why couldn't Red army get in there?

Whoops WO,

1/ I'm Irish - not British

2/ Britain has handed back it's colonies ( conquests)... most of them exist as equal partners within the Commonwealth.. or as partners - like Ireland within the EU..

3/ WHAT has the name - "border lands" -  of a nation got to do with another nation ( Russia)  constantly trying to undermine the first nations DEMOCRATICALLY elected government .. ? ..and attempting to dictate which "club" ( EU, UN ) it joins..?

4/ What the heck has THAT to do with UA women - many of them who feel as Russian as you, and would LIKE to be thought of as Russian - not Ukrainian ?

[mirror]

I don't find this thread usefull for people who took Ukr nationalist's side already or for people like me , who has Russian mentality.

I have limited English to be equal to somebody who uses fluent English so I reserve the right  to make my own conclusions about winners and won in this thread.

[Chris]

Gentlemen, please don't be too critical of Mirror. She is a product of Soviet indoctrination that started at age 3 as soon as kids go to day care. We were brainwashed from the very young age to think that there is only one truth and one version of history - communist history books. "Grandpa" Lenin was made into a "Jesus Christ" figure with representation of his image in practically every room of every building (either portrait or a statue). As soon as we turned 7 years old and went to school we were forced to become an "Oktyabrenok" and wear a little star with Lenin's image in the middle. The history we were taught was off course very one sided and designed to glorify the communist party. There was no internet or access to any other information/books from abroad other than what was approved by the communist party. We were taught that Soviet Union won the war and there was hardly any mention that other Western countries participated in the war against Germany. We were taught that the Soviet Army "liberated" the Baltic states, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. and that those peoples were "grateful" to get their "freedom" and were happy to be part of the Socialist block. When there was an uprising in Czech republic in the 60s the Soviet version was that a bunch of thugs tried to create a disturbance...

It is really difficult for a person to get a different perspective in that kind of atmosphere and brainwashing/indoctrination was unbelievable! Hence you have people like Mirror who "know what they know" think it's the only "truth" and even though they now have access to so much information and can get a different perspective on history, that old Soviet school of thought is so deeply ingrained in them that they are having a difficult time separating with it.

Luckily I escaped the USSR at a younger age and was exposed to different points of view early enough to realise a lot of this, but people like Mirror are kind of "stuck" in the time warp and unless they make a real effort to break down the walls of indoctrination ignorance they are going to continue to think that the version of history taught in Soviet schools was the only real "truth". and that the people of the Baltics shouldn't hate Russians for occupying them for so many years, but should be thankful to Russians for liberating them...
Yes, I do know that they do hate Russians for that, which is also missguided IMO. If any one is to blame that would be the Communist party elite which was made of many different ethnic groups.
I will repeat again that the worst communist leader who terrorised Russians alone with all other ethnic groups and nations was Stalin - a Georgian, who's ethnic background culturally was more similar to Saddam Husein's than it was Russian...

There is a lot of truth in this Ed and thanks for pointing it out again, it is not hard to understand why the likes of Mirror et al see the world as they do, but their stubborn relentless chanting of the party line mantra after so many years and despite the weight of information that is now freely available and for the most part giving a contra argument is what is most annoying to those of us who have alternative views.

[msmoby]

I don't find this thread usefull for people who took Ukr nationalist's side already or for people like me , who has Russian mentality.

I have limited English to be equal to somebody who uses fluent English so I reserve the right  to make my own conclusions about winners and won in this thread.

Mirror, I understand that this is not your first language.

BUT.. please try to listen to our points.. we aren't all married to Ukrainians -  many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Let's be honest.. the messes of Ukraine, Georgia are relics of times when Soviet leaders changed boundaries WITHIN the SSR - never realising the the SSR would break-up.. [ Stalin integrating Abkhazia with Georgia and Kruschev making Crimea part of Ukraine SSR, being prime examples..]

[skiingandrunning]

OK, I have a bad feeling that this post will be pouring fire on this debate, but I thought there might be of some value.  

First, I have only met one Ukrainian who did not like Russians and she was in Lvov (to be expected).  I have met a number (OK, less than a dozen) Russians who have complained about Ukrainians (funny as it usually revolves around the topic of trust and usually came up in the letter writing stage so it could be taken as something of a pitch to see them and not someone else).  Unfortunately, I have not saved those letters so it's just my word on this one.

But, the friction is not just between Ukraine and Russia as some in the Baltic states look at Russia as a big bully.  This letter that I'll share came from a Lithuanian friend who is against my Russian adventures.  Now a little background is needed as her family lost a lot after the Soviets took over the country so her family has reasons to maintain a bias.

Lastly, these are not my words or my feelings as I do not agree with them at all.   I'm just using it as an example that friction does exist and often it's the history and not the people who are blamed.  In this case she believes it's the Soviet system that is to blame.  Also, when reading it, it almost reminded me of the actions of GCG's that she was describing, so if not for the blanket statement that all women are like this, you could use it as a warning that one should be careful.

Hi Mark,

I have day off today from my work  I want to share with you what kind of experience I have about Russians.
You always lived in free country and you have no idea how Russian system damage peoples brains. My parents work very hard to protect us as kids from that damage. And I think they succeeded. I know there is that myth flying in the air that Russian women are very good wives and etc, but you need to understand that you will get a package of damage brain, absolutely different point of view to life and values and for you will take more like your life trying to figure out what is wrong with her. And it's true for all Soviet Union countries where you can feel Russian influence most, especially Ukraine, Belarus.

From my experience when I was living in Lithuania I know that Russian women do everything I mean EVERYTHING to please a man from beginning just to get him and later on a they became very cold, closed inside and they have some kind of sadness inside of them, that even for Lithuanians very hard to understand. Russian womens always wanted to get Lithuanian guys, because Lithuania was so much advanced country compare to Russia. They usually got Lithuanian guys by getting pregnant. So, watch out! However, very few Lithuanian men married Russian women, because everybody knew it how tricky they are. They have all Wikipedia how to get guys. They will make situation were you think you are chasing girl, but actually they arranged that for you. They come to guys with a lot of affection, love and understanding and a lot of good sex. However, that fantasy usually don't last very long after marriage. They targets usually are very lonely guys.

I know for you will sounds weird and I know you think that I'm Russian women, but if you call me that name directly to my face I will feel very insulted. I'm sorry to tell you that but that's what kind of experience I have and that's how bad reputation of Russian women's are in Lithuania.

 I would be happy to continue this discussion with you if you had different experience, during your visits in the Russia but don’t forget that you were foreigner-visiting country for short time and people around you behaved different way they really are in real life.

For me even worst American women is much better because she is who she is and she is not pretending to be somebody else and she has pretty same life values.

Anyway, I felt very responsible to share this information with you. I know you are living in Russian fantasy and I'm sorry this info probably disappointed you and I'm even more sorry to tell you as American guy you never will find a happiness with Russian women it just to much unrepairable brain damage they have from the system that goes already throw many generations.

Must run,

Take care my friend,

[mendeleyev]

I know for you will sounds weird and I know you think that I'm Russian women, but if you call me that name directly to my face I will feel very insulted. I'm sorry to tell you that but that's what kind of experience I have and that's how bad reputation of Russian women's are in Lithuania.

Very telling. Very real life experience. Her feelings are not rare, you can find this all over the FSU.

However as Moby points out, Soviet leaders used forced immigration to "dilute" the local populations they were conquering. Russians were moved in among locals to blend and help "russianize" an area. Today Russians remain in those places and so many ladies in places like Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, etc, do "feel themselves" very much Russian.

I would be happy to continue this discussion with you if you had different experience, during your visits in the Russia but don’t forget that you were foreigner-visiting country for short time and people around you behaved different way they really are in real life.

From God's lips to our ears.   We'd do well to keep this always in mind.

[AkMike]

many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Actually my first hand knowledge is the opposite.  Very few if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

I see it more along the lines of the KKK and blacks, today.  The KKK doesn't represent the majority of whites  in the US. But they wish they did and they talk like they do. Much like the women here do.

[Voyager]

  Very few UW if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

This is what I have found too. In the West, Russians quickly realize that nobody really understands them, different language, different culture, different quisine, different humour, different history.

The only other groups that have a common heritage (ie Soviet era) are from Ukraine & FSU.

[sparky114]

  Very few UW if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

This is what I have found too. In the West, Russians quickly realize that nobody really understands them, different language, different culture, different quisine, different humour, different history.

The only other groups that have a common heritage (ie Soviet era) are from Ukraine & FSU.

OK adding my vote for the above, but then again I think I have said that about !!!! pages back. :

Talk about polls lets add one to this and see the outcome of opinion here 8)

[AkMike]

A poll will show that these women are a minority in their opinion but they don't care. Just like the KKK.

[fireeater]

As with skiingandrunning I also have received comments in correspondence with unflattering remarks concerning one side or the other.  My usual response is that I do not hold the same ideas as they might. But softened by the statement, we do not have the same deep history, nor have truly experienced war, or other events, in our cities as they have.
No one here can relate to what they or their families may have experienced, living here.

Now Altmike. I had a neighbour, lived right next door, who I knew quite well for many years. Nice friendly lady, be the life of any party you are at. After about ten years, She made a statement about blacks, that was truly venomous. What was very strange in that, a group of us got together quite often, and one couple was black. Never a sign she felt that way ever, till that statement that blew me away. Sometimes you may never know what someones true feelings are until something triggers them out.    

Just because they do not say it, does not mean they do not think it.          

[AkMike]

Very possible.
 But I have asked this direct question to many of the ladies here. I was baffled because of a incident here with an old russian ladies attitude. She had a `tude towards us when  we went to her shoppe to rent russian movies. She acted fine when we were 1 on 1, but when another russian woman was there.. She commented that" Oh, Never mind her,she is just a Ukrainian"

 That puzzled me so I have made it a routine question to all of the ladies from the FSU we meet. It's a very small minority that has this attitude, thus I can equate it to the KKK.

[fireeater]

Now I could ask that question of any group of a hundred here, and get 95 politically correct answers and five truthfull ones. 

The bottom line comes down to whether those you asked, gave a PC answer, or what that really felt about it. I do not advocate it is all, just that it does exist.  And one should wonder at the reasons they feel that way, rather then just say they cannot, or insult their intelligence because of it. Did you ever ask that shop lady the question "why" ?

     

 

[AkMike]

Good point! I assume that someone's being honest with answers. When they're proved to be a 'teller of fiction' they'll be suspect forever. Just ask the one mentioned in my sig lines.! 

[fireeater]

Good point! I assume that someone's being honest with answers. When they're proved to be a 'teller of fiction' they'll be suspect forever. Just ask the one mentioned in my sig lines.! 

But your shop lady indicates they are not tellers of fiction, but of real life. 

[AkMike]

Maybe 1 out of 50 that's truthful?

 Why isn't it done the other way around? This seems to be a one way street..

 History shows that the Ukrainians have suffered much more at the hands of the powers in Moscow than the russians suffered at the hands of Kiev.

[Eduard]

Gentlemen, please don't be too critical of Mirror. She is a product of Soviet indoctrination that started at age 3 as soon as kids go to day care. We were brainwashed from the very young age to think that there is only one truth and one version of history - communist history books. "Grandpa" Lenin was made into a "Jesus Christ" figure with representation of his image in practically every room of every building (either portrait or a statue). As soon as we turned 7 years old and went to school we were forced to become an "Oktyabrenok" and wear a little star with Lenin's image in the middle. The history we were taught was off course very one sided and designed to glorify the communist party. There was no internet or access to any other information/books from abroad other than what was approved by the communist party. We were taught that Soviet Union won the war and there was hardly any mention that other Western countries participated in the war against Germany. We were taught that the Soviet Army "liberated" the Baltic states, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. and that those peoples were "grateful" to get their "freedom" and were happy to be part of the Socialist block. When there was an uprising in Czech republic in the 60s the Soviet version was that a bunch of thugs tried to create a disturbance...

It is really difficult for a person to get a different perspective in that kind of atmosphere and brainwashing/indoctrination was unbelievable! Hence you have people like Mirror who "know what they know" think it's the only "truth" and even though they now have access to so much information and can get a different perspective on history, that old Soviet school of thought is so deeply ingrained in them that they are having a difficult time separating with it.

Luckily I escaped the USSR at a younger age and was exposed to different points of view early enough to realise a lot of this, but people like Mirror are kind of "stuck" in the time warp and unless they make a real effort to break down the walls of indoctrination ignorance they are going to continue to think that the version of history taught in Soviet schools was the only real "truth". and that the people of the Baltics shouldn't hate Russians for occupying them for so many years, but should be thankful to Russians for liberating them...
Yes, I do know that they do hate Russians for that, which is also missguided IMO. If any one is to blame that would be the Communist party elite which was made of many different ethnic groups.
I will repeat again that the worst communist leader who terrorised Russians alone with all other ethnic groups and nations was Stalin - a Georgian, who's ethnic background culturally was more similar to Saddam Husein's than it was Russian...

There is a lot of truth in this Ed and thanks for pointing it out again, it is not hard to understand why the likes of Mirror et al see the world as they do, but their stubborn relentless chanting of the party line mantra after so many years and despite the weight of information that is now freely available and for the most part giving a contra argument is what is most annoying to those of us who have alternative views.

Chris, as you I'm annoyed by them therefor I never bother to engage in a conversation with them since I know it's going to be nothing but a waste of time... If they don't have the capacity of opening their mind to new ideas and the need to learn there's nothing one can do to change that. Let them live in their own world the way they percieve it and the rest of us can live in our's 

[AkMike]

Chris, as you I'm annoyed by them therefor I never bother to engage in a conversation with them since I know it's going to be nothing but a waste of time... If they don't have the capacity of opening their mind to new ideas and the need to learn there's nothing one can do to change that. Let them live in their own world the way they percieve it and the rest of us can live in our's 

Good answer Eduard!

[fireeater]

Maybe 1 out of 50 that's truthful?

 Why isn't it done the other way around? This seems to be a one way street..

 History shows that the Ukrainians have suffered much more at the hands of the powers in Moscow than the russians suffered at the hands of Kiev.

Altmike it is the other way as well, some of those Ukrainian women I have talked to are against the Russians in the same manner. And their comments are not very flattering to the Russians. Who is talking only one way. I keep saying it is both ways, not just a one way issue. Skiingandrunnng confirmed that as well.  The only difference is we do not have a Ukrainian women being vocal about it, at least not yet. And from what I saw some of our Ukrainian ladies seem quite capable of throwing back similar comments.    

The only thing that should matter to those with Ukrainian wives, is that you know who she is. If you cannot stand some comment made about her country , how are you going to survive those directed at you, from people you know, of a more personal attack.  If you figure out why it may not have the same impact as it does without it.  

[AkMike]

All I can remark on is what I've seen and heard personally and that's what I've relayed. Maybe we have a milder sort of women here for the most part?

[msmoby]

many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Actually my first hand knowledge is the opposite.  Very few if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

?

I'm pretty sure you've not grasped my point - I'm sorry for not making it clearer..  - so I'll rephrase it.. Many Russians have an "attitude" that Ukrainians are "foxy", "crafty" ...  If you doubt what I say, you must surely detect it in some the responses of Mirror, WO and Anjutka.. although the strength of feeling is vastly different

Recent spats re Georgia, and the Gas issue, Crimean Naval bases and many other issues keep the "pot boiling"..

The attitude of Ukrainians to Russians largely depends on their ethnic origins and their age.  But broadly speaking the further EAST you go, ( notable  exceptions being Odessa and Crimea) the more "Russian" the ladies feel  ..  The Party of Regions ( Pro Russian) has been  ( broadly speaking)   strongest in the East , Crimea and Odessa.

I see it more along the lines of the KKK and blacks, today.  The KKK doesn't represent the majority of whites  in the US. But they wish they did and they talk like they do. Much like the women here do.

Sorry, don't agree with this analogy ..    the RU v UA "thing" is FAR more prevalent than KKK like extremes of feelings  to blacks... well I HOPE so !