Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?

[Voyager]

 This topic has been split away from the Tatar thread

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8147.msg117085#msg117085

[mirror]

When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?   

We know that Muslim foundamentalists in Irak,Iran,Pakistan were existing for ages, but nobody said any one word about Tatars that they are terrorist just because they are Muslims. And I say more we ,Tatars, were grown up with Russian people and into Russian culture so we accept Russian culture like our own.

I can tell you one thing: sometimes Bashkirian people ( I live in Bashkiria so I see it )have something against Tatars, that Tatars came to Bashkirian territory to live and these 2 nationalities-both Muslims. You can see same in East.

[Voyager]

When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?  

We know that Muslim foundamentalists in Irak,Iran,Pakistan were existing for ages, but nobody said any one word about Tatars that they are terrorist just because they are Muslims.  

Well Mirror, I don't think your attitude that "All Ukrainians are traitors" is right, and I also don't agree with the (Americans) who think "All Muslims are terrorists". Manny was talking about a few causing all the trouble, not about all Muslims.

For us, Muslims are an alien culture. A handful don't, and want to preach extremism and other crap in the name of their religion. Hence Muslims get a bad press here because extremism is newsworthy.

And you are right, it's not Tatars that cause trouble, it's radicals from Pakistan & Saudi Arabia that are the fanatics.

We actually had dinner in Crimea with a couple, she is Tatar (Muslim) and her husband is Jewish.  They didn't have trouble with their families.

[mirror]

When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War)

Well Mirror, I don't think your attitude that "All Ukrainians are traitors" is right

Here we go again. I say about stereotypes and I repeated it many time (if to be honest I think this stereotype about Ukr is right   but it is just my private opinion) .

I can say that a stereotype about American businesmans is "they all are deceivers". You can laugh but when I see in a man's profile that he is a businessman I have some not  good suspicions.

[mirror]

Most of them have dark hair and eyes.

Like Ukrainian girls?

[Voyager]

Most of them have dark hair and eyes.

Like Ukrainian girls?

Mirror, lots of Ukrainian girls have blonde hair, blue eyes.

Lots of Russians have dark hair and eyes.

[mirror]

Mirror, lots of Ukrainian girls have blonde hair, blue eyes.

Lots of Russians have dark hair and eyes.

Ukrs (like a nationality) have dark hair and eyes more light than dark...but you can see too many Ukr with dark eyes  because they have dark color in their genes from Turks. 8)

[Voyager]

Mirror, lots of Ukrainian girls have blonde hair, blue eyes.

Lots of Russians have dark hair and eyes.

Ukrs (like a nationality) have dark hair and eyes more light than dark...but you can see too many Ukr with dark eyes  because they have dark color in their genes from Turks. 8)

Mirror, there is no one "Ukrainian typical appearance". In the far west there are many who have Polish genes. (Part of Ukraine was Polish territory before WWII). In the East (Don area) there are many with mixed Russian parentage. There are not that many Ukrainians with mixed Turkish heritage, as Ukraine does not border Turkey. Far more Russian citizens have mixed heritage (and dark features) than Ukrainians, because Russia borders the Turkish/Caucasus and central asian regions (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan etc)

[mirror]

Voyager ,
sorry,but Turkic tribes were living around Black sea always and they had a mixed marriages with Ukr for few centuries. Have a  look a hystory of 10- 11th century and come back to me.  

I found a map.It makes you easier to understand what I write about.

You can see how close Pecheneges were living with Kiev.

[Voyager]

Voyager ,
sorry,but Turkic tribes were living around Black sea always and they had a mixed marriages with Ukr for few centuries. Have a  look a hystory of 10- 11th century and come back to me.  

Yes, and the Ukrainians and Russians both intermarried, from Ukrainian & Russian territories that bordered Seljuk/Ottoman territories, and from when Russia was a vassal of the Mongols. Both Russians and Ukrainians have many people with mixed parentage, but Russia has more because of Eastern & Southern republics

[mirror]

You are right in some part.You can see that Russian,Ukr were living nearby Pechenegs but you can see also that Kiev was much closer to Pechenegs than Novgorod for example.

Everybody can understand why mixed marriage between Pechenegs and Ukr  were hapening those time:because Kipchaks were fighting with Ukr,Russ and Pechenegs were a protection and it is why they were happily married at Rus,Ukr beauties.

PS: I hope that you know Pechenegs belongs to Turkic tribes.

[Voyager]

 Mirror, do you have any data from Russian sources?

From what I understand, if you consider only EUROPEAN Russia,("Great Russians") it is about 45 - 50% blonde, while Ukraine is about 40%. However if you consider ALL of Russia, the % is more like 33% - 35% (because of large number of people whose ethnics are non-Russian but who live in Russia.

From the posted map there is an area of Russia near the Baltic (St Petersburg) that is very blonde, but most of European Russia is like Ukraine. The far west Ukraine near the Black sea coast is darker, similar to Moldova (also darker). However Asian parts of Russia are much more dark than blonde, which lowers the overall total for Russia.

Blonde Map of Europe
But really, is there anything wrong with being dark? You make is sound like dark haired Russians/Ukrainians are something "less" than blondes?  Many Tatars have very dark hair, and are very attractive.

I would be interested to see if you have any Soviet data, because it is more difficult to search in English

[mirror]

I write it because it is you who sounded like to be dark haired is something worse.

I am right  because dark hair is a dominant gene and blond hair is in recessive so you can search anything anywhere but this genetic law of domination will be there anyway if mixed marriages happened many centuries ago.

[mirror]

Your map illustrates that light hair is 20-49 % and in some part of Ukr-1-19% so who is the most? Yes,dark hair.Thank you.

[TomT]

 

[Link]

I’ve learned recently that the definition of white for some Russians is different than the western definition of whiteness.  A brunette person (dark haired) with the skin with as milk might be considered non white for some groups of Russian neo Nazis according to what I say in some videos (white green eyed brunettes being accused of being “black” and  then slaughtered ).  I even saw some attacks on one Italian (Mediterranean look) and other in an American brunette (white). It seems the color of hair and eyes (dark) and having non Slavic facial gestures plays a major role there instead of the actual colour of the skin.

My guess is (I could be wrong on this) that because there are not many truly dark skinned people in Russia in the sense we know in the west (blacks, Amerindians, Mestizos ,etc) then those groups of neo Nazis had to blame the “blackness” of a person in something else rather than the skin color (as some of the victims are indeed white skinned) and the found in the dark hair or eyes the perfect excuse.  So basically is a matter of nationalism instead of racism (as they cannot claim racial superiority when they are actually slaughtering other whites).

By the way I’ve found that some parts in Sweden people with dark hair and or eyes are far more attractive to the local population, as they are rare items among the sea of blondes. The same happens with blondes in a sea of brunettes (Peru for example), is  just nature at work, people feel attracted to the opposite.

[BCKev]

Well put

[Markje]

I'm a sucker for dark haired beauties.

I will never date a blonde  (of course, now my dating days are long gone!)

[sparky114]

Not all Russians dislike Ukrainians,

In 20 visits to different parts of Russia from St Peter to Moscow and way across to Perm Yekaterinburg up into the north Nizney Tagil and then down down south to Rostov,
 I  have never met a Russian person that has spoken badly about Ukranians, and even when asked their reply was:-

People are People and we choose to live in harmony as disdain get us nowhere.

But as always there are these people that harbor these feelings and the minority voice ends up being the one that everybody thinks is correct.

Just my two pennies.

Mark

[Boris]

Voyager,

How does your head feel from banging it up against that brick wall. 

[msmoby]

Mirror

Did your history lessons not teach you about the Byzantine era, or the Pontian ( Greek Speakers - Black sea Greeks ?)

There are MANY Russian speakers from the FSU in Cyprus and Greece who had the chance to leave Russia when the Soviet Union broke up. They were given Greek Passports.

Many folk from Odessa and the Krasnodar region claim Hellenic roots..If I'm not mistaken, weren't many victims of Beslan of Greek origin?



Re the Great Patriotic War / WWII.. when will you realise that many Ukrainians fought with the Nazis as a way to get rid of the Soviets..the Russians?  Ukraine was independent for a short period after the Revolution and then the Red Army came and "ended" it ..

Now you seem to confuse ethnic Russian folk who just happened to live in Ukraine, when the SU broke up with all Ukrainians !?

Please explain to be how ethnic Russian folk ( who still feel Russian ) are the same as "real" Ukrainians who wish to be free of Russian influence?

I've encountered this over-generalised opinion a few times and I always ask.. " How is a Russian speaker from Belgorad different from one in Kharkov ?  ..apart from the passport they hold ..

[sparky114]

?

[Boris]

?

Mark,

Moby's posts are like Jazz music. I am sure they are full of genius but sometimes I don't understand a note!

B.

[mirror]

1msmoby,

don't ask me any question because I am not going to answer in this topic.
This topic was created by Chris ( I think) so ask him.

I know mods here :they create special topic like that and then they blame me in everything bad.

When people speak about origin of the nations there always there will be someone who will complain that others treated him badly or said something specially against him (or his nationality).

This discussion is very slippery so if somebody will be interested to know my private opinion wellcome to PM me and I will tell everything openly  what I know. Kill me! I know too much.

[alenika]

By the way I’ve found that some parts in Sweden people with dark hair and or eyes are far more attractive to the local population, as they are rare items among the sea of blondes. The same happens with blondes in a sea of brunettes (Peru for example), is  just nature at work, people feel attracted to the opposite.

It is the same here. And as Georgia is mostly dark country then here even those with black hair but really white skin are called white. And those with white but dark skin are "blacks". While they are caucasians still, like southern italians. And here in Georia blondes are popular even when they are not real blondes, but dark blondes. And when dark haired girl from here went to Belarus where most people have light blonde hair she was considered very attractive while here none noticed her.