Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?

[Wild Orchid]

And interestingly enough since I've been with both RW and UW, when I was with my ex-RW wife her Russian friends were forever sniping at each other, bragging about how much money they had or their husband had.  With my UW friends, I almost never see this. 

Absolutely opposite situation for me, that is why I said I can speak only about my own experience, that is why I'm not very fond of UW, I've never met UW that won't talk about money and that someone is rich, other husband is poor. I have Russian friends and we talk about kids, work, trips to Russia etc, etc, but not money.

[Eduard]

Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman? 

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?

I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.

[hemingway]

Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman? 

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?

I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.

Ed:
Do you see the "overall materialistic attitude" as something driven by poverty, or something inherent in Ukrainian culture?

[Eduard]

Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?

I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.

Ed:
Do you see the "overall materialistic attitude" as something driven by poverty, or something inherent in Ukrainian culture?

I wouldn't categorise the living condition of people in Ukraine as poverty.. Yes the salaries are small but people in Ukraine were always used to hustling for money (yes, even during the USSR times. And they manage to make money one way or another and in my experience  ON AVERAGE are more driven to make money than people in Russia. This actually would be a good thing IMO if people were doing it in ethical ways, but in Ukraine it seems like anything goes and one needs to watch out. They still even extort money from you at some airports in Ukraine!
I said it before and since some people don't seem to get it I will say it again. I don't think that this has anything to do with people's ethnicity. It's just "the law of tha land" seems like, the culture of the place and has nothing to do wether they are Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, Tatar, Greek, German, Uzbek or even Irish...

[supranatural]

And interestingly enough since I've been with both RW and UW, when I was with my ex-RW wife her Russian friends were forever sniping at each other, bragging about how much money they had or their husband had.  With my UW friends, I almost never see this. 

Absolutely opposite situation for me, that is why I said I can speak only about my own experience, that is why I'm not very fond of UW, I've never met UW that won't talk about money and that someone is rich, other husband is poor. I have Russian friends and we talk about kids, work, trips to Russia etc, etc, but not money.

WO you would probably like my wife.  She never talks about money with her friends although she has RW and UW friends some of which (both on the RW and UW side) who talk to her about how much money they have.  My wife never mentions to them how much money I make on Wall street...ever.  She prefers to talk about hiking, funny stories, what kind of trouble some of her friends back in UA get into, good jokes she's heard, etc.  I've never caught her ever talking to friends about money or how much we have or don't have.  And she is UW...

[hemingway]

I can't remember if I posted this before, but it is from p. 67 of the Bradt Ukraine guide:
"Ukrainians freely admit that they don't trust their own countrymen, a general fear which contributes to nationwide tension...." Bradt doesn't have a Russia guide for comparison, but I don't have any indication that Russians believe the same, generally speaking, about their own countrymen.

[supranatural]

Come on.. it's all about "ease" of travel to UA over RU

I would agree that is part of the reason.

I think the more important reason is that Ukraine is much more economically depressed that Russia.  Therefore many more ladies are willing to exchange their looks and intelligence to a man old enough to be their father for a chance at escape from their financial hopelessness with no foreseeable end to the plight.

It's much more about escape than it is ease of travel.  But the two do seem to compliment each other. 

Shakespear, how much current experience do you have with UW and travel there?  I've been there 8 times in the two years or so, including a 5 week stay.  I've met plenty of UW including the time I initally went on a "tour" to meet UW.  Far fewer women are so eager to leave at this time - you may not believe it but except for the current world financial crises that affects every country, most are doing far better than you think you know.  I've heard a lot of your anti-UW bias on other forums and I can respect that you have an opinion, but I have a LOT more  current in country experience than you do and unless you can back up what you say with actual experience I will take my actual experience over yours thank you.

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more infomation.

When I was there I was in several different cities and I saw a lot of new construction, new western style malls, and more and more amenties for travelers.  My wife's family has plenty of money, and the friends I have there also have plenty of money.  One of my friends bought a $50,000 car for cash to add to his two other cars, replete with in car entertainment system, navigation, etc.  and is building a 3 story house in the Crimea.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.

[fireeater]

Sorry Msmoby Voyager gets priority since he requested it first. But if on all, seems you did not pay attention to what was occurring.  

A check of another site Ukraine 12,625  Russia 1582 Ones available for paid video chat Ukraine 6299, Russia 294.
For both of these sites the figures are out of proportion for the size and population in the country. The only saving grace is that most will be found only on high price sites, and are on more then one site. Since cultural differences are similar, as well as other factors, they should be at least equal in numbers.

Now some cities, Kevi, Kerch, Krivoi Rog, Lusansk, Mariupol, Nikolayev, Odessa, Poltava, Simferpol, Sevastopol, Zaporzhie. Yet for Russia Pskov, and St Pertersburg would be the only two I would list. All of these had a massive numbers of unsolicited letters sent in the dead of night (for the women's dead of night). A lot of them sent within seconds of each other, and would appear in your mailbox all in a row. All sent by agency personal to solicit your business, since the ladies would be fast asleep On that subject the age range starts at 18, and heads toward your own regardless of what your profile states for this. Volume for the two fake profiles was around 500-600 letters, in a couple of weeks. The letters would be the same in all profiles. some even had seconds and thirds sent as well, while I left them active. Some of these ladies are real, some may not be.


Now one city had one group of ladies disappear, while another stayed put. But both groups had those a paid women working there. For the group that disappeared that was the one agency Julie identified here, with branches in a lot of cities. and mainly Ukraine. So there is more then one agency that uses this in any city. But for a lot of those paid ladies you can verify they are real, by using the web cam with or without their knowledge. Now any women who can spend 10 hours in a room, then go to work the next morning and reappear after work back in the agency is a paid worker. Since in that time frame she has had no sleep by anyones calculation. I could monitor this and not even sign on to the site to do that. Before the meltdown in the economy only about 100 would be on line when they should be sleeping, today three times the number. This is a business that includes payment for emails sent, gifts, chats, etc. And Ukraine has been leading the way in it, or else the number for women on these site would be less then it is.      
          

[supranatural]

Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?

I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.

Ed:
Do you see the "overall materialistic attitude" as something driven by poverty, or something inherent in Ukrainian culture?

I wouldn't categorise the living condition of people in Ukraine as poverty.. Yes the salaries are small but people in Ukraine were always used to hustling for money (yes, even during the USSR times. And they manage to make money one way or another and in my experience  ON AVERAGE are more driven to make money than people in Russia. This actually would be a good thing IMO if people were doing it in ethical ways, but in Ukraine it seems like anything goes and one needs to watch out. They still even extort money from you at some airports in Ukraine!
I said it before and since some people don't seem to get it I will say it again. I don't think that this has anything to do with people's ethnicity. It's just "the law of tha land" seems like, the culture of the place and has nothing to do wether they are Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, Tatar, Greek, German, Uzbek or even Irish...

Eduard you bring up a good point.  I've seen a lot of Ukrainians who hustle and work hard.  My wife's brothers became the largest distributor of electrical supplies in their region because they hustled and worked hard (and still work long 10-12 hour days) to make it that way.  They started with nothing and they are very very successful.

[shakespear]

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more information.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.

Dude, where have you been for the last 2 years?  Economic figures from 2007 are meaningless now.  They became meaningless after September 2008.   In 2007 western hotel rooms at the Ritz and Hyatt in Moscow cost over $1000 per night.  Now you can get them for $300 or less on weekends.  `

The Russian Open golf tournament was cancelled in 2009 for lack of a sponsor.  New building construction is at a virtual standstill because capital is just not available.  Every business owner I spoke with reported business down from 35-60% compared to 2007.  I was just there a week ago pal, so don't tell me what I know and don't know.   

Things are horrible in Russia right now.  And since the Ukrainian economy is a lesser reflection of their major trading partner, Russia, that means it must be downright unbearable in Ukraine. 

[supranatural]

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more information.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.

Dude, where have you been for the last 2 years?  Economic figures from 2007 are meaningless now.  They became meaningless after September 2008.   In 2007 western hotel rooms at the Ritz and Hyatt in Moscow cost over $1000 per night.  Now you can get them for $300 or less on weekends.  `

The Russian Open golf tournament was cancelled in 2009 for lack of a sponsor.  New building construction is at a virtual standstill because capital is just not available.  Every business owner I spoke with reported business down from 35-60% compared to 2007.  I was just there a week ago pal, so don't tell me what I know and don't know.  

Where have I been?  Shakespear, I am intimately familiar with the economic client - my clients include Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, and many other fortune 100 company.  The last 2 years I've been making money hand over fist as I've tripled my company income during that time period from financial and pharma companies.  My brother manages the traders in one of the biggest banks in HK, several of my close friends are bond and equities managers in the major financial companies in NYC, etc.  I think I'm pretty aware of the economic climate.  As I said before, EVERY country was affected by the economic downturn.  Or did you gloss over that part in your rush to post a response?  Both Russia and Ukraine are affected as I said but I addressed your statement that Ukraine is "much" more economically depressed than Russia.  It isn't, it's similarly depressed as Russia no more so, considering its GDP was increasing faster than Russia before the downturn.  And now that the economy is recovering, there is little doubt that Ukraine's GDP growth will be on the upswing again.  I am in Ukraine a lot, so don't tell me what's going in Ukraine, pal.  So I will tell you what you don't know, and that's Ukraine.  It's like me going to Florida and claiming I know about California.  It's a long stretch buddy.  How many times have you been in Ukraine in the past 2 years?

You report construction as being down in Russia.  That's RUSSIA, not Ukraine.  Your in country experience is in Russia.  You have no current (or from what I understand) and very little, if any , experience in Ukraine.  One of my friends does government construction projects for Ukraine and he is making a lot of money even now.

Things are horrible in Russia right now.  And since the Ukrainian economy is a lesser reflection of their major trading partner, Russia, that means it must be downright unbearable in Ukraine.  

Wow, "means it must be downright unbearable" sounds an awful lot like you're making a big assumption there pal.  And you know what happens when you assume.  You somehow extend your visits to Russia as meaning you know about Ukraine.  I'll tell you, from your posts in the past, you know very little about the realities in Ukraine, and that's being generous on my part.  To use your agument, I've been in Ukraine, you haven't.  Compared to you I'm an expert on Ukraine if we use your supporting argument that you're an expert on Russia because you were there last week.  Yeah it's so unbearable that my wife's family (mom, dad, brothers, nieces, nephews, etc) is in Turkey enjoying a 2 week vacation, with a side trip to Cyprus Greece.  They tell me every day it's simply awful how they have to make do with a 5 star hotel, spending time on the beach, swimming in 88 degree waters...it's horrible man.

[Wild Orchid]

My wife never mentions to them how much money I make on Wall street...ever. 

was it a hint? 

[fireeater]

Msmoby

If western man has created this in Ukraine, then in turn Ukraine is now capitalizing on it. Manny has already confirmed those threads, and has the same results overall I have noticed
over time as a pattern that is more common in one place. Visa free makes it easier for most, but that same lure could also be used in other countries. Keep in mind the idea of sex sells, is a lure that all can use to get him there. But only one predominates the market. So if we  Westerners created it, then we also need to recognize that this is a spoiled territory, and is much harder to wade now though all the pitfalls, and come out without massive scars at the end of it. A lot may have also found their other half before things became the way it is today. The problem is not that you won't. only that it is will be so much harder with all the false trails, that have to be trodden on first. If those ethic Russians in Ukraine are the ones doing it, then you just defeated your own argument, that they should not be included in this friction between the countries. That would make a Russian in Ukraine no different then a Ukrainian.        


I like the new nickname you and Fo must be exchanging ideas.    

[supranatural]

My wife never mentions to them how much money I make on Wall street...ever. 

was it a hint? 

No, no hints.  The only thing she will say is that I work in NY/NJ area.

[shakespear]

[Both Russia and Ukraine are affected as I said but I addressed your statement that Ukraine is "much" more economically depressed than Russia.  It isn't, it's similarly depressed as Russia no more so, considering its GDP was increasing faster than Russia before the downturn.  And now that the economy is recovering, there is little doubt that Ukraine's GDP growth will be on the upswing again. 

Funny how none of the experts seem to agree with your observations

Here's the facts: 

However Ukraine was greatly affected by the economic crisis of 2008 and as a result the World Bank expects Ukraine`s economy is to shrink 15% in 2009 with inflation being 16.4%. The Ukrainian government predicts GDP growth of 0.4% in 2009 and a slowdown in inflation to 9.5% (also in 2009), although the overwhelming majority of economists consider this forecast to be excessively optimistic. In 2008 the hryvnia (Ukraine's currency) has dropped 38% against the US dollar, eclipsed only by the Icelandic krona and the Seychelles rupee.  According to a forecast by the State Employment Center unemployment in Ukraine will triple to 9% in 2009 (there was 3% unemployment at the end of 2008), which would mean about 3 million people will apply for employment services.  I understand their government debt rating was cut to CCC+ by S&P.

http://www.gmfus.org/publications/article.cfm?id=592

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0206/p07s03-woeu.html

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/ukraine-delicate-balancing-act

http://seekingalpha.com/article/123462-ukrainian-economy-getting-ugly

And look at these graphs.  Yep, the Ukrainian economy is clearly recovering.  Just where did you get your business degree anyway?  Want to make sure my kid doesn't go there. 

[Wild Orchid]

No, no hints.  The only thing she will say is that I work in NY/NJ area.

my post wasn't about what she says, it was about what you said 

[Boris]

Supra,

I have been in Ukraine 5 times in the last year. Things are difficult for a lot of people there. Most construction projects are sitting idle. Almost all of the large plants in Kharkov are operating at minimal capacity or are shut down completely. The largest industrial employer in Kherson is paying 1/2 wages and has laid off many workers.  I am glad your wife's family is doing well but they are the exception in my experience.

B.

[BCKev]

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

I was just reading a recent topic about a scammer from Ivanovo, Russia
Here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8530.msg121529#msg121529

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.

I took you up on the offer, and tallied up the stories in our Train Wreck Room. A total of 10 stories there. (I excluded the threads on Leo, Loyal, and SVOrookie)  
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=46.0

The results?  7 Russian train wrecks, 3 Ukrainian train wrecks. Clearly not an overwhelming majority of Ukrainian train wrecks as you suggest.

Based on the above, I disagree with your generalizations.

[supranatural]

[Both Russia and Ukraine are affected as I said but I addressed your statement that Ukraine is "much" more economically depressed than Russia.  It isn't, it's similarly depressed as Russia no more so, considering its GDP was increasing faster than Russia before the downturn.  And now that the economy is recovering, there is little doubt that Ukraine's GDP growth will be on the upswing again.  

Funny how none of the experts seem to agree with your observations

Here's the facts:  

However Ukraine was greatly affected by the economic crisis of 2008 and as a result the World Bank expects Ukraine`s economy is to shrink 15% in 2009[6] with inflation being 16.4%. The Ukrainian government predicts GDP growth of 0.4% in 2009 and a slowdown in inflation to 9.5% (also in 2009), although the overwhelming majority of economists consider this forecast to be excessively optimistic. In 2008 the hryvnia (Ukraine's currency) has dropped 38% against the US dollar, eclipsed only by the Icelandic krona and the Seychelles rupee.  According to a forecast by the State Employment Center unemployment in Ukraine will triple to 9% in 2009 (there was 3% unemployment at the end of 2008), which would mean about 3 million people will apply for employment services.  I understand their government debt rating was cut to CCC+ by S&P.

http://www.gmfus.org/publications/article.cfm?id=592

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0206/p07s03-woeu.html

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/ukraine-delicate-balancing-act

http://seekingalpha.com/article/123462-ukrainian-economy-getting-ugly

And look at these graphs.  Yep, the Ukrainian economy is clearly recovering.  Just where did you get your business degree anyway?  Want to make sure my kid doesn't go there.  

Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem Shakey.  All you've produced is graphs for Ukraine, and not current ones at that since they stop at late 2008 early 2009.  You need to compare to Russia as you stated that it is "much" more depressed than Russia.  You have not proven that whereas I've proven that they have been experiencing faster GDP growth than Russia.

And again, you have not addressed how YOU are an expert on Ukraine when you never visit Ukraine.  You know next to nothing about Ukraine based on your in country experience.  Please answer that point Shakey.

I couldn't care less where your kid goes to school Shakey.  My education in finance comes from the some of the best financial poeple in the industry who's financial income would dwarf yours.

[supranatural]

Supra,

I have been in Ukraine 5 times in the last year. Things are difficult for a lot of people there. Most construction projects are sitting idle. Almost all of the large plants in Kharkov are operating at minimal capacity or are shut down completely. The largest industrial employer in Kherson is paying 1/2 wages and has laid off many workers.  I am glad your wife's family is doing well but they are the exception in my experience.

B.

Understood but my point is that Ukraine is no more depressed than Russia, and that some people are still making money.  Shakey's statement that Ukraine is suffering much more than Russia in comparison is erroneous and sophomoric.  Everyone is hurting everywhere...my wife's family business is not making the same money they made 2 years ago but they are still doing okay.

[supranatural]

No, no hints.  The only thing she will say is that I work in NY/NJ area.

my post wasn't about what she says, it was about what you said 

Simply stating a fact to support my post. 

[shakespear]

And again, you have not addressed how YOU are an expert on Ukraine when you never visit Ukraine.  You know next to nothing about Ukraine based on your in country experience.  Please answer that point Shakey. 

I've never been to the moon but I know it's not made of green cheese.   

I've never been to the Gobi Desert but I know it's hot there.   

I've never been to the North Pole but I know it's cold there.   

Just because you've not been to a place doesn't mean you can't understand basic economic data and statistics about the place.  Ukraine's major trading partner is Russia.  You don't dispute that do you?  Over 35% of their imports and exports are sourced to Russia.  Why is it obvious to every economist but you that when you have such a large dependence on one trading partner, your economy will be a conclave mirror image of their economy?  The Ukrainian indicators will never be as high on the good side and will always be lower on the bad side than their Russian counterparts.  If Russian GDP is up 20% , Ukraine will be up 15%.  If Russian inflation is 15%, Ukraine will be 20%.  It's basic Economics 200 theory at most colleges.  You must have slept thru that class.     

[supranatural]

And again, you have not addressed how YOU are an expert on Ukraine when you never visit Ukraine.  You know next to nothing about Ukraine based on your in country experience.  Please answer that point Shakey.  

I've never been to the moon but I know it's not made of green cheese.  

I've never been to the Gobi Desert but I know it's hot there.  

I've never been to the North Pole but I know it's cold there.  

Just because you've not been to a place doesn't mean you can't understand basic economic data and statistics about the place.  Ukraine's major trading partner is Russia.  You don't dispute that do you?  Over 25% of their imports and exports are sourced to Russia.  Why is it obvious to every economist but you that when you have such a large dependence on one trading partner, your economy will be a conclave mirror image of their economy?  The Ukrainian indicators will never be as high on the good side and will always be lower on the bad side than their Russian counterparts.  If Russian GDP is up 20% , Ukraine will be up 15%.  If Russian inflation is 15%, Ukraine will be 20%.  It's basic Economics 200 theory at most colleges.  You must have slept thru that class.    

Shakey again you are being sophomoric and it's hilarious.  You can only depend on knowing the Gobi desert is hot because someone else has been there and reported it back. Of course some things you don't have to be there but you were the one who stated his expertise because you were in "Russia just last week."  You can't throw that out as your source of "expertise" and then say you don't have to be in Ukraine to know what it's like there.  False logic at work here.  "I am an expert because I noted hotel prices in Moscow last week so therefore I know the economic climate.  Now, I have NOT been to Ukraine ever, but I hear it's economically depressed."  See the dichotomy in your logic here?  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  So again I call bullsh*t on your supposed Ukraine expertise unless you can produce evidence that Ukraine is "MUCH more depressed than Russia."  Prove it or you simply are pulling things out of your arse as usual.

Economics 101?  Come on shakey.  If that was all that was required to know how economies work we'd all go to class, listen and become multi millionaires.  It isn't because economics is not so simple.  In fact economics is as defined "the science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses."  Your error is in thinking it is about money and finances.  Realize that it's an inexact science.  It's why it's very difficult to predict what people will do and why good earnings reports sometimes boosts a stock or depresses it unpredictably.  Again you have NOT produce evidence that Ukraine is depressed MORE than Russia.  None. Nada.

Let's say this again.  Please provide evidence that Ukraine is much more economically depressed than Russia.  Otherwise you are full of it. Provide some real correlation and evidence and I'll listen with rapt attention.

[shakespear]

[
Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem Shakey.  All you've produced is graphs for Ukraine, and not current ones at that since they stop at late 2008 early 2009.  You need to compare to Russia as you stated that it is "much" more depressed than Russia.  You have not proven that whereas I've proven that they have been experiencing faster GDP growth than Russia.

You haven't proven anything since you haven't provided any Russian data.  Let me do it for you here -

From current economic statistics -

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%

Unemployment Rate:
Russia:    7.1%
Ukraine:  9.0%

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%

Clearly virtually ALL economic indicators are currently worse in Ukraine than they are in Russia.  Hmmmm, not bad for never having been in Ukraine don't you think?  Balls in your court smart guy.

[supranatural]

[
Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem Shakey.  All you've produced is graphs for Ukraine, and not current ones at that since they stop at late 2008 early 2009.  You need to compare to Russia as you stated that it is "much" more depressed than Russia.  You have not proven that whereas I've proven that they have been experiencing faster GDP growth than Russia.

You haven't proven anything since you haven't provided any Russian data.  Let me do it for you here -

From current economic statistics -

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%

Clearly virtually ALL economic indicators are currently worse in Ukraine than they are in Russia.  Hmmmm, not bad for never having been in Ukraine don't you think?  Balls in your court smart guy.

Sources?  I've quoted my sources what are yours.

Regardless, the difference is around 10% between Russia and Ukraine.  That is not "much" more depressed to support your argument that there are more desperate women in Ukraine.  If the difference was 30-40% I'd give you that you have something there.  You don't.  Regardless, the original argument was that you said Ukrainian women are more desperate and your supporting argument was the that Ukraine was "much" more economically depressed.  You have yet to prove that.  And, you have not been to Ukraine to witness firsthand if the women are desperate.  I have and you are wrong there as well. 

And if we follow your argument about the worldwide economic crises as cause and effect, then there should, according to you, been desperate Ukrainian women only in the last year or so.  But you've harped on and on since, oh, around 2001 at least, that Ukrainian women are desperate and UA is not a good place to look for wife, yet during the time period from 2001 to 2007 the growth in GDP in UA outstripped GDP growth in Russia percentage wise.  Your whole argument falls apart their pal.

So the ball is again in your court pal.  How about your logic that you know Russia since you were there last week and somehow that confers you expertise in all things Ukraine?  You conveniently sidestep that particular question -