The Insanity of US Warmongers pushing Confrontation w/ Russia

[Contrarian]

First of all before some twit and mental midget says that this is Russian propaganda, the author is American and a highly competent military specialist.

The basic truth is that if the current administration in the White House continues to provoke Russia it doesn't bode well for the US military, nor does it bode well for peace on the European continent.

Please note that in the portion of the article I am quoting here, he is speaking of defense of Article 5, specifically defense of Ukraine, should the USA ever be foolish enough to somehow allow Ukraine into NATO.

Quote

"Just what would this defense entail? As someone who once trained to fight the Soviet Army, I can attest that a war with Russia would be unlike anything the US military has experienced – ever. The US military is neither organized, trained, nor equipped to fight its Russian counterparts. Nor does it possess doctrine capable of supporting large-scale combined arms conflict. If the US was to be drawn into a conventional ground war with Russia, it would find itself facing defeat on a scale unprecedented in American military history. In short, it would be a rout.

Don’t take my word for it. In 2016, then-Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, when speaking about the results of a study – the Russia New Generation Warfare – he had initiated in 2015 to examine lessons learned from the fighting in eastern Ukraine, told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington that the Russians have superior artillery firepower, better combat vehicles, and have learned sophisticated use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for tactical effect. “Should US forces find themselves in a land war with Russia,” McMaster said, “they would be in for a rude, cold awakening.”

In short, they would get their asses kicked."


https://www.rt.com/op-ed/548322-war-russia-us-nato/

[Gipsy]

And the winners of the USAsians warmongering with Russia are.....

https://inthesetimes.com/article/ukraine-russia-raytheon-lockheed-martin-general-dynamics-weapons-industry

[2tallbill]

In short, they would get their asses kicked."

There is a reason that the USA and Russia don't fight each other directly.
It would end with countless and endless nuclear exchanges.

People need to look at things with a clear head and ignore the chicken hawks.

[Contrarian]

In short, they would get their asses kicked."

There is a reason that the USA and Russia don't fight each other directly.
It would end with countless and endless nuclear exchanges.

People need to look at things with a clear head and ignore the chicken hawks.

Not exactly. The USA is not capable of fighting toe to toe with Russia in a conventional war if the war was based in Europe. We would quickly get our asses kicked.

That is when some psychopath in the USA (and that's much of Congress as well as whoever is controlling Biden) would decide to use Nukes.

But the ass kicking where are forces were decimated would come prior.

[yankee]

In short, they would get their asses kicked."

There is a reason that the USA and Russia don't fight each other directly.
It would end with countless and endless nuclear exchanges.

People need to look at things with a clear head and ignore the chicken hawks.

Not exactly. The USA is not capable of fighting toe to toe with Russia in a conventional war if the war was based in Europe. We would quickly get our asses kicked.

That is when some psychopath in the USA (and that's much of Congress as well as whoever is controlling Biden) would decide to use Nukes.

But the ass kicking where are forces were decimated would come prior.

That's why we have nukes.

[Contrarian]

In short, they would get their asses kicked."

There is a reason that the USA and Russia don't fight each other directly.
It would end with countless and endless nuclear exchanges.

People need to look at things with a clear head and ignore the chicken hawks.

Not exactly. The USA is not capable of fighting toe to toe with Russia in a conventional war if the war was based in Europe. We would quickly get our asses kicked.

That is when some psychopath in the USA (and that's much of Congress as well as whoever is controlling Biden) would decide to use Nukes.

But the ass kicking where are forces were decimated would come prior.

That's why we have nukes.

Yes however our people in Congress and the Biden administration should not be reckless!

Nuclear warfare would end up taking out millions of people and usher in insane suffering. 

[Wiz]

Taking into consideration the historical events in Ukraine can somebody explain to me why since the collapse of the USSR and Ukraine declaring its independence in 1991 the two countries, were still cooperating normally without many big problems like the current situation, until the year 2014 ?

More importantly if we check the history we will find that Russia and the Republic of Ukraine during the USSR years together they created a large system of pipelines into Ukraine and also extended to several European counties, both making money and both countries before and after were benefiting. Take a look and read this post in Wikipedia.
Natural gas transmission system of Ukraine

Take also into your consideration who were/are the main protagonists who exert so much control over the events in USA and also Ukraine!

Don’t forget that Putin is in power in Russia since 2000.

I am sure all of you must know, or guess what was/is the common denominator for the situation to change the situation so dramatically!

[BillyB]

I somehow believe the Obama/Hillary/Biden dynasty wants war with Russia. They duped Putin into buying our Uranium and skimmed some off the pile to make a dirty bomb to use on a Western city and blame it on Putin after the investigation of isotopes would lead back to the pile we sold Russia. When it comes to war, public support is huge. In WWII, American citizens wanted to stay out of the fight but got fired up after Pearl Harbor. 9/11 fired us up. They know what to do to get America and our allies fired up for WW3.

I think Putin knows what the Deep State is up to but he'll try to get as much as he can out of this without getting lured into war.

[Wiz]

I somehow believe the Obama/Hillary/Biden dynasty wants war with Russia. They duped Putin into buying our Uranium and skimmed some off the pile to make a dirty bomb to use on a Western city and blame it on Putin after the investigation of isotopes would lead back to the pile we sold Russia. When it comes to war, public support is huge. In WWII, American citizens wanted to stay out of the fight but got fired up after Pearl Harbor. 9/11 fired us up. They know what to do to get America and our allies fired up for WW3.

I think Putin knows what the Deep State is up to but he'll try to get as much as he can out of this without getting lured into war.

Billy you are at the right direction  I would suggest you take closer look at the  personalities, their background and actions of the various governments since the end of WWII and you will find who has been controlling firstly your economy and in extension your foreign policies too.

I agree with you that V. Putin is not stupid to embroil Russia in an extended war with NATO & Ukraine,  and destroy what he has achieved for his country during the paste 20+ years in power and destroy his fame of the best leader Russia ever had!

I read that while visiting China for the Olympics, he was asked from Xi Jinping not to do anything until the Olympics finish and they have also signed an agreement of Support between their countries!

I also suggest you check and have a look about the comments made by Jim Rogers, legendary investor and co-founder of the Quantum Fund alongside George Soros. He says that the actual debt amount topped $30 trillion for the first time in history last month and it's likely to be much higher than Washington admits.

“That is just what they admit. It is the on-balance sheet debt, but there’s dozens of trillions more debt off-balance sheet,” Rogers said. The actual debt volume is difficult to calculate, especially since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic and all the pressures it brought about. Still, the investor “once figured it out as over $200 trillion,” nearly seven times more than the officially recognized sum!

For your info: China buys huge swathe of Ukraine in grab for farmland

 

[andrewfi]

This whole 'The Russians Are Coming' hysteria has been going on for years. The longer it goes on, the less credibility the propaganda programmers in The West will have.

We seem to be moving to a tipping point in this regard with signs of revolt in Europe against USAian hysteria.

A few days ago something prompted me to try to stand back a little and look at the bigger picture. I was looking primarily at the Russian (and to some degree the Chinese) situation.

I have long held that China and Russia have been seeking to manage the decline of the USA in such a way that the decline did not lead to massive disruption and destruction. I think I first mentioned this on this forum in around 2005.

So, if we assume that hypothesis to be close to true, where is the win for Russia from proving the hysteria mongers correct? There is none.

In fact, Russia's purpose is best served by a continual process of propaganda and hysteria from the US. A process that never actually turns out to be true.

Coincidentally, Maria Zakharova, Director of the Information and Press Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation, posted something on Facebook a few hours ago that seems to support my point.

Yes, I follow her on Facebook, so I find out about her cats as well as more substantive stuff!

In another composition, the famous psychological phobias of the western media about "Russian aggression against Ukraine" is developing.

However, time is passing, Russia does not attack Ukraine. The calculations of those who ordered this "music" of the United States and the British are clear: they invented a "Russian threat", they themselves gathered for a "heroic" fight against it, to then provoke and announce their "victory".

Here's an opportunity to distract you from your own political crises, and a chance to drain billions into the arms of "strengthened democracy", and a way to revive the image of "invincible" after the Afghan failure.

As far as the European Union is concerned, we, in fact, have no doubt that it is not an impartial party in the Ukrainian conflict. It defends its field of influence, which was established back in 2013. , when in Brussels, without spraying means and crossing the objections of the legal government of the country, desperately sold the association of Ukraine with the European Union.

This is an excerpt from a longer post that is interesting as a whole. https://www.facebook.com/maria.zakharova.167/posts/10227651307657924

This idea hangs together with another idea, that of honesty. I absolutely understand that no government or state's representatives can be 100% honest all the time. There are good reasons for that and I have no disagreement with the concept.

However, we can see and talk about relative honesty. And here we know that the USA is far from honest. Dishonesty is a major part of the modus operandum of many organs of state and their representatives. In essence, the USA is untrustworthy,

Russia has long referred to this issue in a negative way, criticising the USA and referring to them as being 'non-agreement capable' because they are so untrustworthy.

Here's the rub, Russian comments about dishonestly and a lack of trustworthiness would mean nothing if the Russians were anything like as bad. And they are not.
Russia needs to be, and seems to be, at the state level, reliable and trustworthy. They do what they say they will do. So, when they say they have no intention to invade Ukraine, here is a second strong reason why it is unlikely to happen - to do so would undo a huge amount of credibility built up over many years. Not necessarily with us, the great unwashed, but with our 'betters' - our military, economic and political leaders.

However, there is a third point.
In the process of destabilising the USA and to some degree European countries, it is in the interest of Russia to keep the flow of propaganda flowing. They may not like it on one level, but on another level it serves the useful task of continuing to fuel the decline of the US by decreasing their soft power, their credibility and even by forcing them to spend money and allocate resources that could be better, from the perspective of the USA, elsewhere.

Russia is forcing the United States to expend its economic and political capital at a greater rate than it can be replaced. From the Russian perspective, this process is almost free of charge.

[justadude]

Taking into consideration the historical events in Ukraine can somebody explain to me why since the collapse of the USSR and Ukraine declaring its independence in 1991 the two countries, were still cooperating normally without many big problems like the current situation, until the year 2014 ?

More importantly if we check the history we will find that Russia and the Republic of Ukraine during the USSR years together they created a large system of pipelines into Ukraine and also extended to several European counties, both making money and both countries before and after were benefiting. Take a look and read this post in Wikipedia.
Natural gas transmission system of Ukraine

Take also into your consideration who were/are the main protagonists who exert so much control over the events in USA and also Ukraine!

Don’t forget that Putin is in power in Russia since 2000.

I am sure all of you must know, or guess what was/is the common denominator for the situation to change the situation so dramatically!

For me The scary version of this story is that Putin is more ideologue than pragmatist. As I understand it, Ukraine and Russia have been United more often in history than they have been separate. Furthermore, there has never been a country with the same borders as modern Ukraine. I think Putin wants his girl back, and is willing to sacrifice a lot to achieve that.

My two cents. But as has been well established on this board, I'm not so smart)

[Manny]

I think Putin wants his girl back, and is willing to sacrifice a lot to achieve that.

Why didn't they take it in 2014 then?

[NS1]

Report from a few people I know in Ukraine.
Basic word  on the street, they do not want a war with Russia, PERIOD!
They like the idea of help from the west, but do not want it because of war.
Will take it if war happens.

I think the most interesting thing I was told, is they will fight until
they have nothing left. Ultimately they do not want to be taken by anyone.
Proud Ukrainians.

IMO this bodes well for no one. If war happens, even if Russia takes Ukraine
Ukrainians will never truely be Russian. So I ask, how does this work?
To this day, many in Ukraine have family and friends in Russia and vice versa.

Most believe the people on either side do not want this. They Beleive
Putin wants this. He has everything, now he wants this as part of his legacy.
If that is true, its not a good road for any side.

[Contrarian]

Report from a few people I know in Ukraine.
Basic word  on the street, they do not want a war with Russia, PERIOD!
They like the idea of help from the west, but do not want it because of war.
Will take it if war happens.

I think the most interesting thing I was told, is they will fight until
they have nothing left. Ultimately they do not want to be taken by anyone.
Proud Ukrainians.

IMO this bodes well for no one. If war happens, even if Russia takes Ukraine
Ukrainians will never truely be Russian. So I ask, how does this work?
To this day, many in Ukraine have family and friends in Russia and vice versa.

Most believe the people on either side do not want this. They Beleive
Putin wants this. He has everything, now he wants this as part of his legacy.
If that is true, its not a good road for any side.

About 30% of people in Ukraine are ethnic Russians and they might wish to be part of Russia again, sort of like Crimea.

But the Russian bear would probably not be satisfied with 30%, they want Kiev so that they can install a Russian friendly government.

It would be nice if the USA would give Russia the assurances they want that Ukraine will never become part of Nato.

Macron of France is going to Russia, or he might be there already, on a diplomatic mission. Let's hope that he is successful.

[NS1]

Report from a few people I know in Ukraine.
Basic word  on the street, they do not want a war with Russia, PERIOD!
They like the idea of help from the west, but do not want it because of war.
Will take it if war happens.

I think the most interesting thing I was told, is they will fight until
they have nothing left. Ultimately they do not want to be taken by anyone.
Proud Ukrainians.

IMO this bodes well for no one. If war happens, even if Russia takes Ukraine
Ukrainians will never truely be Russian. So I ask, how does this work?
To this day, many in Ukraine have family and friends in Russia and vice versa.

Most believe the people on either side do not want this. They Beleive
Putin wants this. He has everything, now he wants this as part of his legacy.
If that is true, its not a good road for any side.

About 30% of people in Ukraine are ethnic Russians and they might wish to be part of Russia again, sort of like Crimea.

But the Russian bear would probably not be satisfied with 30%, they want Kiev so that they can install a Russian friendly government.

It would be nice if the USA would give Russia the assurances they want that Ukraine will never become part of Nato.

Macron of France is going to Russia, or he might be there already, on a diplomatic mission. Let's hope that he is successful.

Likely higher than 30% if you allow all family connections.
but for sake of argument how many Russians have Ukrianian blood? or ties?
Either way, far more than most realize is my bet.
We have to remember the 1991 the Soviet Union fell.
If you were living in Ukraine at that time, regardless of where you were
born, you got a Ukraine Passport. My wife being and example of this.

She considers herself Ukrainian.

[andrewfi]

Those who think that Russia wants to conquer Ukraine, please riddle me this: how do you think that Russia would
1) pay for the conquest? There's no spoils of war to be had from the poorest country in Europe.
2) have the manpower to keep Ukraine under subjugation?

It's easy to believe fantasies based on your girlfriend mandated opinions, prejudices or propaganda. In the real world there are costs and prices to be paid.

I saw some person suggest Putin is an idealogue. I think that person either has no knowledge of recent history or does not understand the meaning of the words he tries to use.

[B.B.]

It would be nice if the USA would give Russia the assurances they want that Ukraine will never become part of Nato.

Why should Russia have veto power over NATO membership?  It's not particularly in the offing, ofc, no should it be, but after Russia violated the 1994 Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's borders, it's even more laughable that he would demand it.  He assumes we would keep our word where he did not. 

I think Putin wants his girl back, and is willing to sacrifice a lot to achieve that.

Why didn't they take it in 2014 then?

You eat an elephant one bite at a time.

B/B

[Wiz]

[andrewfi]

Vladimir Putin speaking, I think, today.
https://www.facebook.com/100064412120729/posts/309003484590053/?app=fbl

More from Mr Putin;
https://www.facebook.com/Putin.President

[NS1]

Ukriane's resources 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjf59eT-e_1AhU1k4kEHZ94DlgQFnoECAYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldatlas.com%2Farticles%2Fwhat-are-the-major-natural-resources-of-ukraine.html&usg=AOvVaw264mhfbEolw2oJQghZexy9

[Manny]

This whole 'The Russians Are Coming' hysteria has been going on for years.

Indeed.

[AvHdB]

The last number I saw was 130,000 soldiers. Indeed it is a bit tiring. On the other side there is the Budapest Treaty document, that Putin also signed and has discarded it seems.

Such is global politics and love.

[andrewfi]

Manny, it goes back much further than that, but yes.

Here's a thought, where else would the people tasked with defending a country's borders be stationed?

From the perspective of the USA and NATO, ideally, Russia would have no armed forces, or at the least, not station them in places from where the defence of the country would be impossible. That's clear even to a moron, so we can be certain that all this hoohaa is not for Russian consumption, nobody with power outside of Russia expects that Russia is going to demobilise its armed forces or withdraw them from where they are needed.

A problem for Russia arises is that when the leaders of other countries make moronic statements then Russia must deal with them as morons. We see some of that understanding with recent patronising and trolling statements from Russia. That also rather feeds into my hypothesis that the Russian leadership is well aware of what's going on and is using the words and actions of USAian and European political and military leaders against them.

The trolling is for real, the goal is to do what trolls do: force their audience to respond and thus waste time and energy on the responses. Whatever one says to a troll makes no difference to the troll, apart possibly from encouraging them! Look at what used to happen with Mark Smyth (Moby) back in the day.

In this case, by doing nothing, Russia is stoking up the USAian rhetoric. Stoking up divisions between The US and EU and between the EU and NATO. Look what is happening. A regular parade of callers on the Kremlin from across Europe.

Putin, on a personal level is being pragmatic and didactic. The former because that's his background, training and personality. The latter because he is having to teach non-professionals and incompetents about the real world. Notice in his press conference with French press reps yesterday.

Putin needed to explain to the assembled press corps just what was implicit in Ukraine joining NATO. He told them that given what is in Ukraine's public policy doctrine documents should Ukraine join NATO that a war between European countries (NATO) and the Russian Federation was inevitable. They seemingly did not know about either NATO or Ukrainian doctrine or treaty documents.

[andrewfi]

AvHdB, check before you post. You are, unless referring to patent law, which is, embodied in part in the Budapest Treaty, somewhat wide of the mark.

You are perhaps referring to the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. After the coup in 2014 a new state arose in the country of Ukraine. The previous state having been ended illegally with the coup and overthrow of the previous government. Note the differences between nation, country and state - they are not synonyms.

Where a new state arises, the obligations of the previous one are not continued. I am not a lawyer, I am not discussing the content of the memorandum, merely its ending with the creation of a successor state to the signatory state.

Finally, under international law, a treaty holds legal force while a memorandum does not.

This is a short forum post, not a paper. If you want to find out more then you can do the learning and share it with us, if you so choose.

[Wiz]

Thanks Andrew for your post! 

Unfotunaly my friend AvHdB is following the standard instructions from his Masters to dispute everything, also try and derail any thread, post and finally make a bloody mess of any post and any subjects that is not to his liking.

I suggest to him to stop talking about the  Budapest Treaty document, because his Chazarian Jew ex-President of Ukraine,  Petro Poroshenko's on the 5 September 2014,
signed the Minsk Agreement II, which largely resembled his own 20 June "fifteen-point peace plan.

For his education I suggest him to read: Minsk Protocol process and drafting

Edited by your kind moderator.