The Insanity of US Warmongers pushing Confrontation w/ Russia

[AvHdB]

AvHdB, check before you post. You are, unless referring to patent law, which is, embodied in part in the Budapest Treaty, somewhat wide of the mark.

You are perhaps referring to the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. After the coup in 2014 a new state arose in the country of Ukraine. The previous state having been ended illegally with the coup and overthrow of the previous government. Note the differences between nation, country and state - they are not synonyms.

Where a new state arises, the obligations of the previous one are not continued. I am not a lawyer, I am not discussing the content of the memorandum, merely its ending with the creation of a successor state to the signatory state.

Finally, under international law, a treaty holds legal force while a memorandum does not.

This is a short forum post, not a paper. If you want to find out more then you can do the learning and share it with us, if you so choose.

Andrew you are correct the common name is indeed, Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.

You are incorrect even if you use the very convoluted logic that ithe memorandum ceased to be effective in 2014. Both Ukraine and Russia have invoked the terms in the last 15 years. The memorandum is binding on successor states.

Keep on trying, but consider what a quagmire the world would be if one can not count on ones guarantees and promises.

[andrewfi]

AvHdB, whatever you might want to imagine, you are wrong.
One might argue about whether there is a successor state or not, but the evidence and commentary on the amendments to the constitution in 2014 suggest that is the case. However, the point is that a memorandum is not a binding document in the way that a treaty is.

I won't argue the point with you because if you choose to take a counterfactual view through lack of knowledge then I cannot help you and there's no point in discussing because an opinion not based upon fact is valueless. One might discuss what the facts mean, but you are not at that point.

[B.B.]

AvHdB, check before you post. You are, unless referring to patent law, which is, embodied in part in the Budapest Treaty, somewhat wide of the mark.

You are perhaps referring to the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. After the coup in 2014 a new state arose in the country of Ukraine. The previous state having been ended illegally with the coup and overthrow of the previous government. Note the differences between nation, country and state - they are not synonyms.

Where a new state arises, the obligations of the previous one are not continued. I am not a lawyer, I am not discussing the content of the memorandum, merely its ending with the creation of a successor state to the signatory state.

Finally, under international law, a treaty holds legal force while a memorandum does not.

This is a short forum post, not a paper. If you want to find out more then you can do the learning and share it with us, if you so choose.

Andrew you are correct the common name is indeed, Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.

You are incorrect even if you use the very convoluted logic that ithe memorandum ceased to be effective in 2014. Both Ukraine and Russia have invoked the terms in the last 15 years. The memorandum is binding on successor states.

Keep on trying, but consider what a quagmire the world would be if one can not count on ones guarantees and promises.

Av is, indeed, correct here and our resident Putin apologists are not, however, like Russia, they insist on taking the view that Russia's illegal occupation and annexation of Crimea is fully justified, no matter how plainly false this is. 

Imagine, if you will, if the EU or the USA decided that treaties signed with the USSR have no validity now, because it's a different state. 

They would be screaming "NO FAIR!" like little piggies.

Bear in mind that I have no particular beef with Russia, other than based on the actions of Putin's government.  I enjoyed my time there and look forward to visiting again.  It makes me sad to see "brother wars" in Europe.  But such decisions take place above my pay grade.

B/B

[Wiz]

A) Av is, indeed, correct here and our resident Putin apologists are not, however, like Russia, they insist on taking the view that Russia's illegal occupation and annexation of Crimea is fully justified, no matter how plainly false this is. 

B) Imagine, if you will, if the EU or the USA decided that treaties signed with the USSR have no validity now, because it's a different state. 

They would be screaming "NO FAIR!" like little piggies.

C) Bear in mind that I have no particular beef with Russia, other than based on the actions of Putin's government.  I enjoyed my time there and look forward to visiting again.  It makes me sad to see "brother wars" in Europe.  But such decisions take place above my pay grade.

B/B

A) I am not Putin’s apologist and only express my own objective views. The fact of the matter you and all pro Americans like to listen to your own Propaganda and while you suppose to think by your selves you do not take into consideration certain facts.

B) Crimea was an Autonomous Republic and not under the Kiev Government Jurisdiction. The Crimea Government followed international standards for the referendum, but the US asked its friends in NATO not to send any observers!
Any how it is all done and dusted now, Crimea is back where they belonged to and you can curry on sucking your fingers.   

The Russians do not trust the Americans as they constantly accused you for not following any agreement, from the end of WWII till today. How many times Putin has accused US openly that you do not keep your signed agreements?

By signing the MINSK 2 agreement it is clear that the new agreement supersedes any previous articles of the Budapest Agreement.
 
C) Russia does not want to take over Ukraine neither start a war. They only want a friendly Pro Russia Government and a solution to the Dombas and East Ukraine Area. Ukraine's position will always be as an extra buffer zone for any attacks from NATO or USA.

Russia will not Invade Ukraine, which under current circumstances can take them no more than 72 hours to be in KIEV.

The American and NATO cannot afford to have a war with Russia in Ukraine. Germany your Vassal is started getting fed up with your Occupational Supervision…..etc.

[Contrarian]

A) Av is, indeed, correct here and our resident Putin apologists are not, however, like Russia, they insist on taking the view that Russia's illegal occupation and annexation of Crimea is fully justified, no matter how plainly false this is. 

B) Imagine, if you will, if the EU or the USA decided that treaties signed with the USSR have no validity now, because it's a different state. 

They would be screaming "NO FAIR!" like little piggies.

C) Bear in mind that I have no particular beef with Russia, other than based on the actions of Putin's government.  I enjoyed my time there and look forward to visiting again.  It makes me sad to see "brother wars" in Europe.  But such decisions take place above my pay grade.

B/B

A) I am not Putin’s apologist and only express my own objective views. The fact of the matter you and all pro Americans like to listen to your own Propaganda and while you suppose to think by your selves you do not take into consideration certain facts.

B) Crimea was an Autonomous Republic and not under the Kiev Government Jurisdiction. The Crimea Government followed international standards for the referendum, but the US asked its friends in NATO not to send any observers!
Any how it is all done and dusted now, Crimea is back where they belonged to and you can curry on sucking your fingers.   

The Russians do not trust the Americans as they constantly accused you for not following any agreement, from the end of WWII till today. How many times Putin has accused US openly that you do not keep your signed agreements?

By signing the MINSK 2 agreement it is clear that the new agreement supersedes any previous articles of the Budapest Agreement.
 
C) Russia does not want to take over Ukraine neither start a war. They only want a friendly Pro Russia Government and a solution to the Dombas and East Ukraine Area. Ukraine's position will always be as an extra buffer zone for any attacks from NATO or USA.

Russia will not Invade Ukraine, which under current circumstances can take them no more than 72 hours to be in KIEV.

The American and NATO cannot afford to have a war with Russia in Ukraine. Germany your Vassal is started getting fed up with your Occupational Supervision…..etc.

Russia has already invaded Ukraine and has no intention of giving back Crimea or the Donbas.

Yes you actually are a Putin apologist, despite your protestations. International law should be sacrosanct, it's only Russia and apologists like you, Andy and others who refuse to acknowledge that.

When you and Andy learn how to read and comprehend English get back to us, until then this is mostly a waste of time.

[Wiz]

Russia has already invaded Ukraine and has no intention of giving back Crimea or the Donbas.

Yes you actually are a Putin apologist, despite your protestations. International law should be sacrosanct, it's only Russia and apologists like you, Andy and others who refuse to acknowledge that.

When you and Andy learn how to read and comprehend English get back to us, until then this is mostly a waste of time.

Are you wearing glasses or you have gone gaga .

I never claimed I speak perfect English but......Refering to Andrew by telling to learn how to read English is the joke of the last century.

Any how you are bored and have nothing else to do
apart from teasing me and playing with your ......... imagination!

I agree that "International law should be sacrosanct" But its only USA and friends who do not respect it and invade any country they want to!
Lastl you invaded Afghanistan and look the results..... The taliban made an ass of your 20 years fighting" 
Putin had stick it up yours and soon you will cry Mama mama....

Andrew do learn English and teach the American clowns how to speak your/their Ancestors Language!

 

[AvHdB]

By signing the MINSK 2 agreement it is clear that the new agreement supersedes any previous articles of the Budapest Agreement.

Please inform and entertain us by explaining this ‘logic’ above.

[B.B.]

{Words}

Wiz, don't bother to reply to my posts; I find yours so dense, chaotic and unintelligible that I don't bother to read them.

Regards,

B/B

[NS1]

Regardless of Crimea, Russia invaded Ukraine.
A sovereign Nation.

No person from a proper free nation should support this,
no matter who you favour. Accepting this type of behaviour
from any world power is unacceptable.

So the folks here that defend Russia because they favour Russia
are idiots, if the day comes they do it to the country you live in
its ok.

Saying the US did this or did that does not make it excusable.

[Contrarian]

Russia has already invaded Ukraine and has no intention of giving back Crimea or the Donbas.

Yes you actually are a Putin apologist, despite your protestations. International law should be sacrosanct, it's only Russia and apologists like you, Andy and others who refuse to acknowledge that.

When you and Andy learn how to read and comprehend English get back to us, until then this is mostly a waste of time.

Are you wearing glasses or you have gone gaga .

I never claimed I speak perfect English but......Refering to Andrew by telling to learn how to read English is the joke of the last century.

Any how you are bored and have nothing else to do
apart from teasing me and playing with your ......... imagination!

I agree that "International law should be sacrosanct" But its only USA and friends who do not respect it and invade any country they want to!
Lastl you invaded Afghanistan and look the results..... The taliban made an ass of your 20 years fighting" 
Putin had stick it up yours and soon you will cry Mama mama....

Andrew do learn English and teach the American clowns how to speak your/their Ancestors Language!

 

{Words}

Wiz, don't bother to reply to my posts; I find yours so dense, chaotic and unintelligible that I don't bother to read them.

Regards,

B/B

Ditto.


Notice he didn't attempt to dispute that Russia has already invaded Ukraine,

neither has Russia's obligations for signing the original Budapest Memorandum change,

he simply resorted to the usual "what aboutisms" w/ some added gibberish.

[Contrarian]

Regardless of Crimea, Russia invaded Ukraine.
A sovereign Nation.

No person from a proper free nation should support this,
no matter who you favour. Accepting this type of behaviour
from any world power is unacceptable.

So the folks here that defend Russia because they favour Russia
are idiots, if the day comes they do it to the country you live in
its ok.

Saying the US did this or did that does not make it excusable.

This may sound strange to some who make political views a way of proving loyalty, however I definitively favor Russia, in that I find the culture and history of Russia to be very beautiful and in many ways I like Putin standing up to some of the West's nonsense.

This doesn't change the fact that I don't want to see a "brothers war" on European soil, yet again. Besides the enormous bloodshed it won't bring Russia closer to Ukraine, it will only keep them further apart and ruin Russia's image abroad for decades.

[Contrarian]

By signing the MINSK 2 agreement it is clear that the new agreement supersedes any previous articles of the Budapest Agreement.

Please inform and entertain us by explaining this ‘logic’ above.

Yeah when I bought a lottery ticket today I entered into an agreement with the Lottery Commission which makes all other US laws null and void. 

[Wiz]

By signing the MINSK 2 agreement it is clear that the new agreement supersedes any previous articles of the Budapest Agreement.

Please inform and entertain us by explaining this ‘logic’ above.

Yeah when I bought a lottery ticket today I entered into an agreement with the Lottery Commission which makes all other US laws null and void.

Despite you make fun of any logic, what do you think was the purpose  of the meeting in Minsk, of the 4 leaders, Poroshenko, Putin, Merkel and Macron and why they signed an agreement to stop the war, which started after the weekend visit by the Head of  CIA John Brennan ? Don't forget 15000 people lost their lives, after that!

Just to have a nice weekend under the umbrella of Alexander Lukashenko or to find a solution to stop the war ravaging mostly east Ukraine?

From Wikipedia: The Minsk Protocol is an agreement which sought to end war in the Donbas region of Ukraine. It was written in 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, consisting of Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), with mediation by the leaders of France and Germany in the so-called Normandy Format.

The agreement, which followed multiple previous attempts to stop the fighting in the Donbas, aimed to implement an immediate ceasefire. It failed to stop fighting in Donbas, and was thus followed with a new package of measures, called Minsk II, which was signed on 12 February 2015.

This too failed to stop the fighting, but the Normandy Format parties agreed that it remains the basis for any future resolution to the conflict.

[Contrarian]

I somehow believe the Obama/Hillary/Biden dynasty wants war with Russia. They duped Putin into buying our Uranium and skimmed some off the pile to make a dirty bomb to use on a Western city and blame it on Putin after the investigation of isotopes would lead back to the pile we sold Russia. When it comes to war, public support is huge. In WWII, American citizens wanted to stay out of the fight but got fired up after Pearl Harbor. 9/11 fired us up. They know what to do to get America and our allies fired up for WW3.

I think Putin knows what the Deep State is up to but he'll try to get as much as he can out of this without getting lured into war.

This is an interesting conspiracy which I recall reading about before.

I certainly would not doubt that the creatures behind supporting the Clinton attempt to become President would stoop to such an evil false flag.

Hopefully you're right that Putin backs down and doesn't go to war against Ukraine. Keeping so many troops on the border no doubt causes anxiety to Ukrainian citizens and it would be better if Russia would withdraw these troops and find better ways to renew relationships.

[Contrarian]

By signing the MINSK 2 agreement it is clear that the new agreement supersedes any previous articles of the Budapest Agreement.

Please inform and entertain us by explaining this ‘logic’ above.

Yeah when I bought a lottery ticket today I entered into an agreement with the Lottery Commission which makes all other US laws null and void.

Despite you make fun of any logic, what do you think was the purpose  of the meeting in Minsk, of the 4 leaders, Poroshenko, Putin, Merkel and Macron and why they signed an agreement to stop the war, which started after the weekend visit by the Head of  CIA John Brennan ? Don't forget 15000 people lost their lives, after that!

Just to have a nice weekend under the umbrella of Alexander Lukashenko or to find a solution to stop the war ravaging mostly east Ukraine?

From Wikipedia: The Minsk Protocol is an agreement which sought to end war in the Donbas region of Ukraine. It was written in 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, consisting of Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), with mediation by the leaders of France and Germany in the so-called Normandy Format.

The agreement, which followed multiple previous attempts to stop the fighting in the Donbas, aimed to implement an immediate ceasefire. It failed to stop fighting in Donbas, and was thus followed with a new package of measures, called Minsk II, which was signed on 12 February 2015.

This too failed to stop the fighting, but the Normandy Format parties agreed that it remains the basis for any future resolution to the conflict.

You are still deflecting.

Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum and sent in their "little green men" who they initially denied were Russian military troops to seize a huge chunk of Ukrainian land, held a bogus referendum at gun point which was against the Ukrainian Constitution and against their previous assurances to uphold Ukrainian territory after Ukraine gave up Nukes.

Then later on the RF gave medals for participating in this military action, after they had claimed they were not Russian soldiers. It's all a joke to the chauvinistic Russians, wink wink.

Carpetbaggers were sent in from Russia to loot Crimean banks and businesses, similar to how Yanks sent in Carpetbaggers at the end of the US civil war.

However unlike many other Americans on this forum, I am willing to be truly objective and fair in my analysis. I acknowledge that the likes of Soros did indeed finance unrest in Ukraine and financed the overthrow of Yanukovych, which was probably approved by the CIA who are a bunch of treasonous ratfu*& weasels if there ever were such. I agree that it was most likely a color revolution.

Those same weasels and their allies in the US Congress whine about an alleged "insurrection" in the US Capitol on January 6th, 2020. They used that CIA cutout jackass Ray Epps to lure good Patriotic citizens into the Capitol building a little more than a year ago, and those Patriots have languished in jail without proper representation, with poor medical care and have been abused by black criminal thugs masquerading as prison guards. It is both outrageous and extremely hypocritical.

And now to add insult to injury that weasel with dementia who was part of the greatest election theft in the USA wants to whine about the sovereignty of Ukraine while he has done everything in his limited power to go along with the destruction of US sovereignty. Our border is a joke and to make matters worse there are airlines flying in low IQ gimme dats from Africa to further destabilize the USA and steal from honest hard working Americans.

Overall I don't care about Ukraine, I care about the USA and I want our rotten corrupt crooked politicians who have been in charge of the current mess to either hang in a public square or spend life in prison with the same thuggish hateful "guards" who have been mistreating real Patriots.

None of this changes the fact that Russia did in fact invade Ukraine by seizing Crimea. And they continued their invasion by sending in artillery, special forces and massive military supplies into the Donbas.

They could have been happy with matters such as they were, but no it seems the Russian bear wants more.

Back to matters at hand:

If I had the power to offer Russia assurances that the USA would do it's best to never allow Ukraine into NATO providing that Russia would send their troops back to their bases and never invade I would.

Obviously such a dream of peace on my part has no basis in reality, however it's an honest opinion of a Conservative American who would like better relations with Russia.

If there are any independent Russians reading this forum they are getting an independent opinion here without any BS.

[Wiz]

However unlike many other Americans on this forum, I am willing to be truly objective and fair in my analysis. I acknowledge that the likes of Soros did indeed finance unrest in Ukraine and financed the overthrow of Yanukovych, which was probably approved by the CIA who are a bunch of treasonous ratfu*& weasels if there ever were such. I agree that it was most likely a colour revolution.

And now to add insult to injury that weasel with dementia who was part of the greatest election theft in the USA wants to whine about the sovereignty of Ukraine while he has done everything in his limited power to go along with the destruction of US sovereignty. Our border is a joke and to make matters worse there are airlines flying in low IQ gimme dats from Africa to further destabilize the USA and steal from honest hard working Americans.

Overall I don't care about Ukraine, I care about the USA and I want our rotten corrupt crooked politicians who have been in charge of the current mess to either hang in a public square or spend life in prison with the same thuggish hateful "guards" who have been mistreating real Patriots.

If there are any independent Russians reading this forum they are getting an independent opinion here without any BS.

I would like to accept your NOT sincere expression of regret but as we say in Greece,
" The wolf, even if he grew old and whitened his hair, neither changed his mind, nor his head"

I provided you with the evidence and facts to support my comments........while you have NOT admitted that the Orange revolution and the coup d'etat  were organised and financed by the USA agents as MS Victoria Nulan together with her partner G. Payat executed, as she accepted on the video I posted earlier in her speech, and that USA spent 5 Billion Toilet Paper..err.. Dollars! Remember that?

Personally I wish and  hope that USA will not push via your stooges in Kiev to provoke Russia up to the point not to have any more patients with your destructive behaviour.

Like it or lump it Putin will protect the interests of Russia..... and now he is prepared to do it . .without any fear for your "superior" Offensive armaments.

My dislike of the USA and more exactly your governments is that since 1947 you have invaded , in various ways my birth Country Greece not to our benefit but to your own and the last one is the Criminal ambassador G. Payat from Kiev he has been running around our country and created more bases in the centre and NE Greece and now we know that you have atomic rockets in North of Greece. Pretty obvious that the Russians know all about it and have adjusted their own rockets to hit your bases in Greece and destroy our country.

So far, since the US arrived in Greece, us Greeks have not seen any of your actions to benefit our country apart for your policy of divide and rule, that you inherited from GB. In 1947 we had a civil war between Left and Right, helped by the Americans, a dictator ship in 1967 and on and on and the final was the Bankruptcy of the country in 2010.

So I am a bit sensitive about Anerican Policies towards our country!

Think about it?

 
 

[Contrarian]

" The wolf, even if he grew old and whitened his hair, neither changed his mind, nor his head"

So that is what is wrong with you, Wiz!

[AvHdB]

By signing the MINSK 2 agreement it is clear that the new agreement supersedes any previous articles of the Budapest Agreement.

Please inform and entertain us by explaining this ‘logic’ above.

Yeah when I bought a lottery ticket today I entered into an agreement with the Lottery Commission which makes all other US laws null and void.

Despite you make fun of any logic, what do you think was the purpose  of the meeting in Minsk, of the 4 leaders, Poroshenko, Putin, Merkel and Macron and why they signed an agreement to stop the war, which started after the weekend visit by the Head of  CIA John Brennan ? Don't forget 15000 people lost their lives, after that!

Just to have a nice weekend under the umbrella of Alexander Lukashenko or to find a solution to stop the war ravaging mostly east Ukraine?

From Wikipedia: The Minsk Protocol is an agreement which sought to end war in the Donbas region of Ukraine. It was written in 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, consisting of Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), with mediation by the leaders of France and Germany in the so-called Normandy Format.

The agreement, which followed multiple previous attempts to stop the fighting in the Donbas, aimed to implement an immediate ceasefire. It failed to stop fighting in Donbas, and was thus followed with a new package of measures, called Minsk II, which was signed on 12 February 2015.

This too failed to stop the fighting, but the Normandy Format parties agreed that it remains the basis for any future resolution to the conflict.

Wiz, Thank you for confirming what we all have assumed for quite a while. You are the forum dolt (idiot).

For the good order there is NO connection between The Budapest Agreement and The Minsk Protocols*. With both papers Russia has subverted on numerous points. If you wish I can dig up the Russian language versions and a patient soul can explain them to you. It is obvious your English fails you.

So you understand NATO has not attacked Russia and there are no NATO or for that matter US troops presently on Ukraine soil. There are hybrid Russian forces operating in the East of Russia. Further there are surrounding Ukraine over 100,000 Russian offensive troops on three borders. So please share who is the aggressive and confrontational party?

*Well there is one common attribute, they both were drafted in capitols.

[Markje]

So you understand NATO has not attacked Russia and there are no NATO or for that matter US troops presently on Ukraine soil. There are hybrid Russian forces operating in the East of Russia. Further there are surrounding Ukraine over 100,000 Russian offensive troops on three borders. So please share who is the aggressive and confrontational party?

I have no problem with hybrid forces of russia inside of russia.

Did you catch the meeting of Lavrov last time? as a warmer-upper he asked if they would respect Sovereignety of Russia over 2 oblasts that are very much in the heartland of Russia.

The stupid woman didn't even know that , she said they would not.

Of course, in western news they only relayed the Insult but not how he came there.
https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-crisis-russias-sergei-lavrov-and-uk-foreign-secretary-liz-truss-hold-tense-news-conference-12538501

Andrew had more details on this:

I just saw some comments about the outcome of the meeting today, 10/2/22, between Lavrov and Truss in Moscow. It did not go well.

Lavrov commented that the British side was poorly prepared. During the meeting, he apparently did a sanity test. He asked Liz Truss if the UK was willing to recognise the sovereignty of the Russian Federation over the Voronezh and Rostov regions. Truss replied in the negative.

The more astute readers will recall that these are heartland regions of Russia. That Liz Truss was so poorly prepared that she did not even know these areas were not part of the areas disputed by the UK displayed a high level of incompetence that led Lavrov to later comment that the talks were "Like A Mute Talking To A Deaf Person".

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5207486

What is the point in these people going to Moscow if they have nothing to add to the dialogue? It looks more akin to posturing for a few media soundbites in the UK than any diplomatic purpose.

[2tallbill]

You are incorrect even if you use the very convoluted logic that ithe memorandum ceased to be effective in 2014. Both Ukraine and Russia have invoked the terms in the last 15 years. The memorandum is binding on successor states.

Keep on trying, but consider what a quagmire the world would be if one can not count on ones guarantees and promises.

Ukraine has had several free elections since 2014 when they decided to free themselves of the Putin puppet
government. Neither Putin nor his puppet government in Kiev was in place when the memorandum was signed.
So when the puppet government fell, it has no relationship to ending the memorandum and security agreement.

Arguing otherwise is illogical

[2tallbill]

Did you catch the meeting of Lavrov last time? as a warmer-upper he asked if they would
respect Sovereignty of Russia over 2 oblasts that are very much in the heartland of Russia.

The stupid woman didn't even know that , she said they would not.

Angel Eyes was a bit fired up about it initially, but we later had a laugh about how
frequently stupid people rise to stations far above their abilities.

[yankee]

Keep on trying, but consider what a quagmire the world would be if one can not count on ones guarantees and promises. [/size][/font]

You mean like Biden's promises?

[AvHdB]

Did you catch the meeting of Lavrov last time? as a warmer-upper he asked if they would
respect Sovereignty of Russia over 2 oblasts that are very much in the heartland of Russia.

The stupid woman didn't even know that , she said they would not.

Angel Eyes was a bit fired up about it initially, but we later had a laugh about how
frequently stupid people rise to stations far above their abilities.

Sadly there is truth to this G. W. Bush perhaps should of been President of the local Chamber of Commerce, instead . . .

[Contrarian]

Did you catch the meeting of Lavrov last time? as a warmer-upper he asked if they would
respect Sovereignty of Russia over 2 oblasts that are very much in the heartland of Russia.

The stupid woman didn't even know that , she said they would not.

Angel Eyes was a bit fired up about it initially, but we later had a laugh about how
frequently stupid people rise to stations far above their abilities.

Sadly there is truth to this G. W. Bush perhaps should of been President of the local Chamber of Commerce, instead . . .

Not even that good IMO. I always thought of him as a failed country and western singer. A really bad one. 

[AvHdB]

Did you catch the meeting of Lavrov last time? as a warmer-upper he asked if they would
respect Sovereignty of Russia over 2 oblasts that are very much in the heartland of Russia.

The stupid woman didn't even know that , she said they would not.

Angel Eyes was a bit fired up about it initially, but we later had a laugh about how
frequently stupid people rise to stations far above their abilities.

Sadly there is truth to this G. W. Bush perhaps should of been President of the local Chamber of Commerce, instead . . .

Not even that good IMO. I always thought of him as a failed country and western singer. A really bad one. 

Please tell me he did not try to sing. As I recall he became a portrait painter.

It was amazingly . . . bad.