international Dating Dead?

[NS1]

Since I originally came here, everyone said the business is dying.
Is it really? or is it just changing?
A few have stuck to the same old line, likely because they can't adjust to change or admit they are wrong.

Few years ago, I read in 2005, 5% of relationships started from the internet.
In 2012 it was 18%, they were predicting by 2020 85% would start there.
I am not sure of current statistics, but you can bet it's high.

I believe the traditional MOB business is likely dead, but I believe international dating
is growing. Travel easier than ever, internet and endless apps allow for easy communication.

So the question is, what do you think?

[dcguyusa]

Yes, I agree that online dating numbers have increased since the mid-1990s. It allows you to an expanded number of potential mates than just dating locally.  Just as with electronic filing of tax returns, it was below 10% back in the early 1990s.  Now it is around 90%.

The MOB business in this country was dead after the transcontinental railroad was built and connected all regions of the country.  However, in many third world countries, MOB industry still thrives and is the standard where dowry and arranged marriages are still practiced.  However, there are still some men in the western world with the "Tarzan" mentality.   

[Omega1982]

Allow me to quote Manny in several phrases.  I think all of the below which is 100% accurate has made Americans less interesting. 

"Americans have lost their cache" 

"The US isn't making any friends" 

"De dollarization"

"Sunset on the US and the dollar" 

"China is the world's largest economy" 

[Guile]

that's just media talk...have you actually been in Russia lately and get people's reaction when you tell them you are American?

[msmoby]

Those knowing folks who rent out properties and have FREQUENT USians wife-hunting in the FSU would smile and be glad of the reality.

Steveboy has plenty of 'clients' - so many he can toss 'em out - knowing they'll STILL be back

I wonder how many of his clients actually get on the plane ..


In the meantime who knows how many right swipes are happening with dating apps ..

[NS1]

that's just media talk...have you actually been in Russia lately and get people's reaction when you tell them you are American?

Thats the point, we focus on the FSU as that's where most of us looked.
Even 90 day finance visa a few years ago were ladies from Eastern Europe.
It's now all over the world. Many are using apps and not traditional dating sites.

Must be dead if I can't see it, is the mentality. I suspect its changing, not shrinking.
I also suspect less people come to  places like this because of the feedback they get.

[2tallbill]

Since I originally came here, everyone said the business is dying.
Is it really? or is it just changing?
A few have stuck to the same old line, likely because they can't adjust to change or admit they are wrong.

Few years ago, I read in 2005, 5% of relationships started from the internet.
In 2012 it was 18%, they were predicting by 2020 85% would start there.
I am not sure of current statistics, but you can bet it's high.

I believe the traditional MOB business is likely dead, but I believe international dating
is growing. Travel easier than ever, internet and endless apps allow for easy communication.

So the question is, what do you think?

I posted a long thoughtful post and it disappeared

F#ck! F#ck! F#ck! F#ck!



Cliff notes version of my long thoughtful post.

Point One
There will always be international dating for the socially skilled adventurous
men around the world. It's the inept neophytes that are going to struggle mightily.

Point Two
There will always be places plagued with socialism, corruption, graft, etc.
As long as that exists there will always be women who want to better their
circumstances.

I will have to come back later and make all the subtle points that I wanted to
make that disappeared.

[Dogsoldier]

 Globalisation, the availability of cheap air travel and the internet has made the world a smaller place.
Peoples exposure to other places and cultures has expanded at an astonishing pace.
This will only greatly increase the dating pool as men ( and women) move around the world, both physically and virtually, interact with each other and forge relationships apace.

The international dating scene is alive and well.

[andrewfi]

While people move around more than they did, the number who do so, other than as refugees, is still tiny. In the EU this is a matter of some concern at high levels.
I think that the number of people who actively engage in travel to further, or start, some kind of romantic relationship is tiny and will remain so. The idea of 'increasing one's dating pool' is a myth that some people cling to in order to rationalise failure. There's no magic that makes people in a different country easier or better, or more likely to engage in a romantic relationship with some random foreign guy (or girl). What I think happens is that we succeed at the things we put effort into.

What does happen is that people who find themselves in new countries, for whatever reason, seek romance, love, sex. Modern technologies do make that much easier than in even the recent past. I have been very pleasantly surprised by that. The tools I used didn't exist 10 years ago, or didn't have the required network effect to be effective.

I'd bet that if one were to look at, for example, US K1 visas issued to women to settle with men who were not from the same country as themselves, that the numbers will not have shifted in any meaningful way. In 2014 fewer than 36,000 K1 visas were issued to fiancées of either sex. That's a tiny number.
The trend is showing upward but are tiny in absolute terms. The numbers in this table include kids and all other K1 subgroups.

[NS1]

Andrew you maybe correct in some aspects.
When I began it was a bit of a holiday / slash adventure.
Not really thinking long term, what I realized is, in todays world
why limit myself to my city?

I then put together a realistic plan based on current times and
I could not leave where I was, because of my work. ( not easily transferable)
So I looked at only people willing to relocate.

When you compare  the US visa's they may have gone down, consider how many in the world view
the US at certain times that number is likely to change often. Also many people are coming visa for school
work etc, then decide to stay because they found love.

I have met 3 couple in last few months, ( yes small sample ) also small town.
But two were men and one women, who came because of meeting someone,
from US to Canada.

Point being when you look it from a Global perspective, the number could be quite big.
I think people are looking much further afield for romance. From many countries.
The internet and all the new ways for people to connect only make that easier and likely
to grow. Along with as said above the relative ease of travel and information.

[andrewfi]

As I said, people have relationships where they are. Two people meeting in the USA are not engaged in international dating. They are dating in the United States.

A K1 visa requires at least one meeting of the partners outside the USA. That's international.

If we, we very generously, assume that ALL the people arriving in the USA on a K1 got married, that's 36,000 in 2014 and we know that in 2014, in the United States there were around 2.4 million marriages then we can see that marriage as the result of international dating represents less than 1.5% of marriages.

We also know from government analysis of visa applications that a large proportion of K1 visa applications are for people who are from the same country that the USAian originally came from. Poles import Poles, Latvians import Latvians, again, hardly international dating. But this reduces the maximum 1.5% even further.

While I have not plotted a trend, and can't be arsed to do so, it is blindingly obvious that very, very, few people are actively indulging in international dating. They might fantasise about it but they clearly take no action.

Is international dating dead?
In the USA, at least, it might not be dead, but the doctors caring for the patient are discussing, in hushed tones, whether to turn off the life support machines. While the hospital administration urges them to keep the machines on in order to keep revenues coming into the business.

[BillyB]

I believe the traditional MOB business is likely dead, but I believe international dating
is growing. Travel easier than ever, internet and endless apps allow for easy communication.

You are correct. People can do it themselves on the internet without a marriage agency. International dating is growing. America is issuing more spousal and fiancée visas over the years. In one chart below, it shows k-1's issued the last couple years is down but the pending k-1s went way up. Trump's immigration office has been very busy doing other things but according to the chart, they are catching up and approvals are up and pending is going down.

https://rapidvisa.com/k1-visa-report/#5_1

[andrewfi]

Billy, the report writers do not agree with your conclusion in respect of the numbers of people using K1 visas to migrate to the United States and the evidence of their data (the same as the US Government's data) is clear.

Here is what the report writers say on the matter:

K-1 visa applications have remained steady but flat over the years. Moreover, they constitute a tiny fraction of overall visa admissions.

Worth noting when considering who are the sponsors is that the sample used by Rapidvisa is limited to their own clients, a self-selected group and may well not be typical of the overall universe of sponsors - indeed there are good reasons to think that might be the case. People who are familiar with the process by association are unlikely to use a 3rd party agency given that they already have the skills and knowledge available to them from within their community.

By the way, NS1, your original question is based upon a faulty premise. You are claiming that people here have said that international dating is dying out. That's not correct. I and others have pointed out that the mail order bride business in the United States was dying and that has clearly proven to be true.

'International dating' the process whereby people travel to another country specifically to meet and woo people from another country is at the same low level as it has been for many, many years. In the case of the USA, we can use K1 visa issuance as a proxy for international dating because living together is the general and hoped-for outcome of a successful dating process.
Unless there is evidence to suggest that the number of people traveling to find a life partner is increasing but that the success rate of the relationship initiated in this way has fallen then the only rational conclusion is that the overall levels of love-seekers traveling internationally from the USA has remained the same for many years.

What we can suggest is that the mode of meeting has changed from an agency-based approach toward an individual approach, albeit still mediated by some form of paid-for service.

[msmoby]

Indeed you have suggested the 'death of the Russian Bride', but the veracity of not a few of your 'gut feelings' and 'research' has hardly been stellar.

You 'backed' a web based platform and dating apps came along and now potential couples have even less middle-men feeding from the trough.

In the mean time, real people from the west are still meeting real people from the FSU, in the FSU.




 

[Dogsoldier]

The numbers of People travelling for the specific purpose of finding a partner may be stagnant but I would venture that the numbers of people finding partners internationally as a result of greater travel opportunities, increased job opportunities, easily available information is much higher than a few decades back.
People are on the move and putting down roots in far flung places.

[Steveboy]

International Dating is still alive and kicking and will be for a long time yet!

As for FSU women dating yeah that is well and truly dead now if your looking for a women your grand daughters age.. and probably if your a guy under 40 years old you will struggle.

For serious men seeking a FSU women actually it is as easy as 1-2-3 if you providing the following :

1. You're a min of 45/50 years old.. probably the other side of 50 is best .. late 50's early 60's you can find endless women if your realistic in your search criteria.

2. You search for a women 10 years younger than yourself easy as 1-2-3 you can do it within 6 months! 15 years depends.. 20 years that is near finished now..

3. Just in case your not so luck in chatting some women up , maybe don't look like brad pit.. that's no big problem either, just be prepared to spend 2/3 years seeking your ideal partner .. stick at it and again its as easy as 1-2-3

4. Sign up to a reputable dating site..

5. Forget about the CNN news and Hollywood your NOT going to marry a young beauty queen!

I would say best chances are if your 50-60 and realistic, lots of beautiful mature women out their in their 40's .. if that is not good enough for you, you may as give up this very minute..

And lastly if your a bit tubby , maybe not looking like a super star maybe lack in communication skills maybe been living with mom for 35 years, remember there is always some one for everyone..   https://bridesandlovers.com/women-ukraine-brides-weight-chubby

It is also very important when starting your search that you will NOT be rescuing the women from a life of poverty making her in debt to you for ever, and foreever ready to do your cooking and cleaning, many men are thinking along these lines, they generally stay single for ever..

[andrewfi]

The numbers of People travelling for the specific purpose of finding a partner may be stagnant but I would venture that the numbers of people finding partners internationally as a result of greater travel opportunities, increased job opportunities, easily available information is much higher than a few decades back.
People are on the move and putting down roots in far flung places.

I doubt that's true. At least not in any meaningful sense. I read a while back about the concerns of the EU about the low levels of real mobility within the EU. yet the EU is about the easiest group of countries in the world in which to move around. I'd be surprised if anywhere else in the world had greater movement that then EU, with the exception of some specific pairings of countries for economic reasons.

The richest EU economies have the lowest propensity to move and the poorest the greatest. Poland with more than 2,000,000 people migrated out of the country dominates in terms of numbers. But in percentage terms, the rich countries are, on the whole significantly lower than 2%. How many of those Poles are actually marrying people other than Poles? A whole load of them move individually and send money back to their families, same for the other countries with large(ish) migrant populations.

Very few people actually do as you suggest. Of course, when one is in the middle of an expat community it probably feels different!

[BillyB]

Billy, the report writers do not agree with your conclusion in respect of the numbers of people using K1 visas to migrate to the United States and the evidence of their data (the same as the US Government's data) is clear.

Here is what the report writers say on the matter:

K-1 visa applications have remained steady but flat over the years. Moreover, they constitute a tiny fraction of overall visa admissions.

I don't care what their conclusion in the quote says. This thread isn't talking about the amount of k-1 visas compared to tourist, business, student, and other visas. This thread is talking about international relationships. The charts in the link I provided are clear. If anybody wants to call the number of K-1s applied for per year flat over the years, that is fine but the number of spousal visas have skyrocketed. Way more Americans are marrying foreigners today than a few years ago. The number of IR-1 spousal visas doubled in 2017 compared to 2013.

My conclusion is NS1 is correct when he says international dating is growing because more serious relationships that end in marriage are a result of it.

[andrewfi]

Billy, go read! The numbers have hardly shifted.
If you doubt me, why not write out the list of K1 visas issued, by year, and paste them in here?

The words I quoted are perfectly clear to anyone with a passing level of English comprehension.

Ask a native English speaker whether "K-1 visa applications have remained steady but flat over the years." means that there has been a significant increase in numbers or if it means they have remained almost the same.

 

[BillyB]

Billy, go read! The numbers have hardly shifted.
If you doubt me, why not write out the list of K1 visas issued, by year, and paste them in here?

Reading and COMPREHENDING are the keys! Where did I say k1 visas issued are up? I've said k1 visa issued are actually down while the pending k1s are up. Visas related to international relationships are spousal and fiancée overall are up which translate to more people getting involved in international dating. When addressing this topic, you've only discussed k1 visas so your conclusion pertaining to this topic will be flawed.

[Manny]

I would venture that the numbers of people finding partners internationally as a result of greater travel opportunities, increased job opportunities, easily available information is much higher than a few decades back.
People are on the move and putting down roots in far flung places.

I agree with that. People travelling for work, gap years, etc. Much of that is people happening to meet people while there rather than pre-planned 'international dating'. Case in point: we had a chap and his wife round we know recently that we have not seen for a while. Their two kids are now out of regular education. The daughter is studying to be a vet and has found herself in New York and has met a young American guy she is in a relationship with. The son (who studied Spanish in school) is in Spain and very involved with some Spanish girl he met. While both those are dating foreign born people, they are doing so while living abroad and didn't set out to do some 'international dating' as such.

[Manny]

The idea of 'increasing one's dating pool' is a myth that some people cling to in order to rationalise failure. There's no magic that makes people in a different country easier or better, or more likely to engage in a romantic relationship with some random foreign guy (or girl). What I think happens is that we succeed at the things we put effort into.

I disagree. As you have recently found out, the UK dating scene is full of fat fairies. It was the same 10-15 years ago. I dont find those women appealing. However, Russia was bristling with far more appealing looking women who had a more appealing mindset and similar values to me. I increased the size of my dating pool and did rather well from it. I'd still be looking in the UK to find a woman who had so many things that appealed to me. So it aint a myth.

That said.......

By the way, NS1, your original question is based upon a faulty premise. You are claiming that people here have said that international dating is dying out. That's not correct. I and others have pointed out that the mail order bride business in the United States was dying and that has clearly proven to be true.

This is true. The MOB marriage business has died pretty much (communication will remain active*). Not just in the US, either. Yes, the street cred/cache of dating an American has long since gone away. Russophobic international politics, the vulgarity of Trump, the belligerence of the US war machine abroad, the decrease of US disposable income and local media all play a tiny part in making the US, and by extension its men, less palatable. Added to which the economy of Russia and the FSU generally has grown. This means women dont have to make financial/future security choices like they once did. Why twenty odd year age gaps are mostly a thing of the past.

As for FSU women dating yeah that is well and truly dead now if your looking for a women your grand daughters age.. and probably if your a guy under 40 years old you will struggle.

For serious men seeking a FSU women actually it is as easy as 1-2-3 if you providing the following :

1. You're a min of 45/50 years old.. probably the other side of 50 is best .. late 50's early 60's you can find endless women if your realistic in your search criteria.

2. You search for a women 10 years younger than yourself easy as 1-2-3 you can do it within 6 months! 15 years depends.. 20 years that is near finished now..

Most men who enter this are reading old Elena's Models and similar nonsense from twenty odd years ago. They approach the endeavour with the same unrealistic expectations as ever. Some dude in his 50s/60s imagines he will bag some Ukrainian bird of 23 who looks like a model. Well, good luck to the sites who are parting those fools from their money. Most of those blokes dont even have a passport and imagine Sexy Olga will arrive to him. It's all the same bollox as it always was - but with fewer available women.

*The dating sites dont earn from marriages; they earn from communication. Marriage is the purported aim of the correspondents. From the odd one that might happen, it gives them something to put on their 'success' page. But I'd wager less than 1% of western dating site correspondents ever get on a plane. And that's quite handy because a similarly low number of advertised woman are actually real, single, available, looking and writing on behalf of themselves.

It's like shooting fish in barrel for the neophyte. People who do the learning can still do well. Like anything in life. But the numbers are miniscule.

[Steveboy]

The idea of 'increasing one's dating pool' is a myth that some people cling to in order to rationalise failure. There's no magic that makes people in a different country easier or better, or more likely to engage in a romantic relationship with some random foreign guy (or girl). What I think happens is that we succeed at the things we put effort into.

I disagree. As you have recently found out, the UK dating scene is full of fat fairies. It was the same 10-15 years ago. I dont find those women appealing. However, Russia was bristling with far more appealing looking women who had a more appealing mindset and similar values to me. I increased the size of my dating pool and did rather well from it. I'd still be looking in the UK to find a woman who had so many things that appealed to me. So it aint a myth.

That said.......

By the way, NS1, your original question is based upon a faulty premise. You are claiming that people here have said that international dating is dying out. That's not correct. I and others have pointed out that the mail order bride business in the United States was dying and that has clearly proven to be true.

This is true. The MOB marriage business has died pretty much (communication will remain active*). Not just in the US, either. Yes, the street cred/cache of dating an American has long since gone away. Russophobic international politics, the vulgarity of Trump, the belligerence of the US war machine abroad, the decrease of US disposable income and local media all play a tiny part in making the US, and by extension its men, less palatable. Added to which the economy of Russia and the FSU generally has grown. This means women dont have to make financial/future security choices like they once did. Why twenty odd year age gaps are mostly a thing of the past.

As for FSU women dating yeah that is well and truly dead now if your looking for a women your grand daughters age.. and probably if your a guy under 40 years old you will struggle.

For serious men seeking a FSU women actually it is as easy as 1-2-3 if you providing the following :

1. You're a min of 45/50 years old.. probably the other side of 50 is best .. late 50's early 60's you can find endless women if your realistic in your search criteria.

2. You search for a women 10 years younger than yourself easy as 1-2-3 you can do it within 6 months! 15 years depends.. 20 years that is near finished now..

Most men who enter this are reading old Elena's Models and similar nonsense from twenty odd years ago. They approach the endeavour with the same unrealistic expectations as ever. Some dude in his 50s/60s imagines he will bag some Ukrainian bird of 23 who looks like a model. Well, good luck to the sites who are parting those fools from their money. Most of those blokes dont even have a passport and imagine Sexy Olga will arrive to him. It's all bollox.

The dating sites dont earn from marriages; they earn from communication. Marriage is the purported aim of the correspondents. From the odd one that might happen, it gives them something to put on their 'success' page. But I'd wager less than 1% of western dating site correspondents ever get on a plane. And that's quite handy because a similarly low number of advertised woman are actually real, single, available, looking and writing on behalf of themselves.

It's like shooting fish in barrel for the neophyte.

There is no Russian brides dating sites left they are all now defunct@!

https://www.similarweb.com/website/*Unapproved Link*     Dead!

https://www.similarweb.com/website/bride.ru.          Dead!

https://www.similarweb.com/website/hotrussianbrides.com.   Dead!

The list goes on and on!! Even one you mentioned is near Dead!

There are less than 5 sites left..

And its not all about numbers its about offering real people in an absolute scam free environment..

https://www.similarweb.com/website/bridesandlovers.com   Top Destination for all members is the payment page..   You will not find anywhere else..those stats..

Lots have changed over the last few years as well as younger women no longer interested you now find a huge amount of registrations from Western Europe are either called Mohammed .. Rasheed ...Mustafa. .. and so on!! It must be really strange for the women seeking for example a Swedish man and seeing all these guys! Most of these men obviously like  white Caucasian women.. and clearly the locals are not interested in them.. so they watch CNN new and try to find them selves a poor desperate women to relocate to their country to do the cooking and cleaning whilst they sit on their ass all  day.. Yeah it happens all the time now, its one of the biggest changes I think..

[NS1]

Using the USA alone is not realistic. Many more countries with large populations have the internet now, LOL.
I think Steveboy is correct, the providers who keep up with the times and adjust platforms constantly,
likely do quite well. Many men and women are doing it on there own as well.
We joke about 90 day visa.
they have a show called 90 days the other way, people leaving the US and going to
country of their chosen partners. not just men, women as well.

I simply believe internationally dating is growing, name it what ever you want.
Here years ago, the MOB business. Of all the stories I have read here and other forums.
I have not read one report, where someone mailed away and a bride was sent off
( Oh doesn't mean it didn't happen ) I have just never read it.

1000's of war brides and men happened that way after 2nd world war.
this does not change, it just evolves.

[Mr strange]

The idea of 'increasing one's dating pool' is a myth that some people cling to in order to rationalise failure. There's no magic that makes people in a different country easier or better, or more likely to engage in a romantic relationship with some random foreign guy (or girl). What I think happens is that we succeed at the things we put effort into.

I disagree. As you have recently found out, the UK dating scene is full of fat fairies. It was the same 10-15 years ago. I dont find those women appealing. However, Russia was bristling with far more appealing looking women who had a more appealing mindset and similar values to me. I increased the size of my dating pool and did rather well from it. I'd still be looking in the UK to find a woman who had so many things that appealed to me. So it aint a myth.

That said.......

By the way, NS1, your original question is based upon a faulty premise. You are claiming that people here have said that international dating is dying out. That's not correct. I and others have pointed out that the mail order bride business in the United States was dying and that has clearly proven to be true.

This is true. The MOB marriage business has died pretty much (communication will remain active*). Not just in the US, either. Yes, the street cred/cache of dating an American has long since gone away. Russophobic international politics, the vulgarity of Trump, the belligerence of the US war machine abroad, the decrease of US disposable income and local media all play a tiny part in making the US, and by extension its men, less palatable. Added to which the economy of Russia and the FSU generally has grown. This means women dont have to make financial/future security choices like they once did. Why twenty odd year age gaps are mostly a thing of the past.

As for FSU women dating yeah that is well and truly dead now if your looking for a women your grand daughters age.. and probably if your a guy under 40 years old you will struggle.

For serious men seeking a FSU women actually it is as easy as 1-2-3 if you providing the following :

1. You're a min of 45/50 years old.. probably the other side of 50 is best .. late 50's early 60's you can find endless women if your realistic in your search criteria.

2. You search for a women 10 years younger than yourself easy as 1-2-3 you can do it within 6 months! 15 years depends.. 20 years that is near finished now..

Most men who enter this are reading old Elena's Models and similar nonsense from twenty odd years ago. They approach the endeavour with the same unrealistic expectations as ever. Some dude in his 50s/60s imagines he will bag some Ukrainian bird of 23 who looks like a model. Well, good luck to the sites who are parting those fools from their money. Most of those blokes dont even have a passport and imagine Sexy Olga will arrive to him. It's all the same bollox as it always was - but with fewer available women.

*The dating sites dont earn from marriages; they earn from communication. Marriage is the purported aim of the correspondents. From the odd one that might happen, it gives them something to put on their 'success' page. But I'd wager less than 1% of western dating site correspondents ever get on a plane. And that's quite handy because a similarly low number of advertised woman are actually real, single, available, looking and writing on behalf of themselves.

It's like shooting fish in barrel for the neophyte. People who do the learning can still do well. Like anything in life. But the numbers are miniscule.

As for Elena Petrova she warns against PPL, the typical expections of men who gets the age wrong thinking they can get a bride under 30.

Then how to avoid the typical scams   Main one being trying to bag a girl under 30 and get the rip of treatment.

That is part of how to stop wasting your money on dating from 2016 which is inexpensive information if you want to be a succes in Russia or Ukraine