De-Dollarisation.

[andrewfi]

Ant, the US dollar is not backed by gold. Do you honestly not know this stuff?

Is the fact that the US repudiated it's role in respect of Gold back in the Nixon administration news to you?
Does it really take over 40 years for  ease of 'current' affairs to reach you?

Here's some more stuff that you may have missed:
The US lost the Vietnam war.  The Soviet Union is no more. We have not been back to the moon for decades and,  while you were asleep, China has become the world's manufactury and the world's largest economy.

Much has changed while you were sleeping!

[msmoby]

Much has changed while you were sleeping!

..and it certainly doesn't include de-dollarisation' - not matter how much you might want to 'talk it up'

I must need my 'bumps felt' quoting Prof Michel Chossudovsky of global (mis) research fame - but these are his words:

"While the creation of BRICS has significant geopolitical implications, both the AIIB as well as the proposed BRICS Development Bank (NDB) and its Contingency Reserve Arrangement (CRA) are dollar denominated entities. Unless they are coupled with a multi-currency system of trade and credit, they do not threaten dollar hegemony. Quite the opposite, they tend to sustain and extend dollar denominated lending. Moreover, they replicate several features the Bretton Woods framework.

Some folk just aren't getting the memos 

[WestCoast]

Ant, the US dollar is not backed by gold. Do you honestly not know this stuff?

Nor is the ruble, the UK pound or the Chinese yuan. I've never heard of Russia's gold reserve being publicly audited, have you? I haven't heard Putin say the ruble is now backed by gold, have you?

If any large country such as the US, UK, Russia, China etc could only have a money supply that was 100% backed by their gold reserves their economy would be far smaller than it is today.

[WestCoast]

Much has changed while you were sleeping!

..and it certainly doesn't include de-dollarisation' - not matter how much you might want to 'talk it up'

I must need my 'bumps felt' quoting Prof Michel Chossudovsky of global (mis) research fame - but these are his words:

"While the creation of BRICS has significant geopolitical implications, both the AIIB as well as the proposed BRICS Development Bank (NDB) and its Contingency Reserve Arrangement (CRA) are dollar denominated entities. Unless they are coupled with a multi-currency system of trade and credit, they do not threaten dollar hegemony. Quite the opposite, they tend to sustain and extend dollar denominated lending. Moreover, they replicate several features the Bretton Woods framework.

Some folk just aren't getting the memos 

Moby, Andrew and Manny think because Putin says it, it will be or must be true. What neither understands is in organizations such as the BRICS and the AIIB Russia is a bit player , its economy is not that large compared to others in the group especially China. In these organizations China calls the shots and Putin either agrees or shuts up.

[Manny]

Even if that were the case, I'd rather have China calling the shots than the US.

[andrewfi]

Westcoast, moby, try the thinking and then do the learning.

Why do you think that Russia and China would be saying that they are engaged in reducing the impact of the dollar in their economies and then acting to do just that if their intention was not to reduce the impact of the dollar in their economies?

The leadership of neither country is reputed to be insane or stupid. So, please do tell.

While you are about it you might want to comment upon just why the volume of dollar trade is falling - even in your neck of the woods Westy, surely as a banker you know about the declining use of the dollar in Sino-Canadian trade? Go, on, shock yourself, look up the numbers and see the trend.

Even the quoted words pasted by moby support the point, but he just did not understand well enough.
Moby probably thinks that the Bretton Woods agreement is still in place as Anteros does. Going to something akin to Bretton Woods would make a whole heap of sense and that this is under consideration is borne out by the actions of the Russians and Chinese as well as several other governments. If the US had not defaulted and the agreement was still in place the US would not be in the situation it now finds itself. Nixon may be infamous for the Watergate affair, but it was under his watch that the US dollar was rendered valueless. History will not look kindly upon the US default on its obligations at that time.

[WestCoast]

Even if that were the case, I'd rather have China calling the shots than the US.

How are your book sales in China? I'll bet the US is a far better customer for you at least judging by members on RUA.

If you really believe China would do better as the dominant global player than the US than you don't know China. Having done a single trip to China has shown you virtually nothing about the country. Learn the language and listen to their own news, TV broadcasts in Chinese. Read about China in Chinese. Speak to Chinese who live abroad.

China is still a one party state, does that sound like a good idea?

[Manny]

Even if that were the case, I'd rather have China calling the shots than the US.

How are your book sales in China? I'll bet the US is a far better customer for you at least judging by members on RUA.

Well, duh. I have no titles written in Chinese. 

Stop trolling and see what Andrew taught you above.

[WestCoast]

Even if that were the case, I'd rather have China calling the shots than the US.

How are your book sales in China? I'll bet the US is a far better customer for you at least judging by members on RUA.

Well, duh. I have no titles written in Chinese. 

Stop trolling and see what Andrew taught you above.

This from the man who says that gold isn't priced in US dollars because the gold trade is older than the US. Manny what grade did you stop attending school? Grade 10? Earlier?

Andrew, Manny gold is priced in US dollars.

No.

Trading in gold is older than America. 

[Manny]

If I buy and sell gold in the UK (as I used to do once upon a time as it goes), I don't do it in dollars.

If the US or its dollar ceased to exist tomorrow, gold would still be valuable. As it was before the US existed, as it will be when the dollar is gone from world trade.

The subject here is countries de-dollarising. Which they are. Sales of English language books in China and gold prices are unconnected.

You are making yourself look really daft here Westy, and you have used up my allotted time for trolls for today that Moby normally sucks up.

[WestCoast]

If I buy and sell gold in the UK (as I used to do once upon a time as it goes), I don't do it in dollars.

If the US or its dollar ceased to exist tomorrow, gold would still be valuable. As it was before the US existed, as it will be when the dollar is gone from world trade.

The subject here is countries de-dollarising. Which they are. Sales of English language books in China and gold prices are unconnected.

You are making yourself look really daft here Westy, and you have used up my allotted time for trolls for today that Moby normally sucks up.

You buy and sell gold and you don't understand that gold is priced in US dollars? Of course gold dealers will take UK pounds for gold sales but the initial price of gold is set in US dollars. If you don't understand this you can't be doing much business in gold.

[leslied]

The USA only accounts for about 10% of world trade in gold.  India is the largest gold market with about 22% of world trade. The middle east accounts for approx 15% + in total and China rivaling both.  (Source is UN world trade statistics)

Gold has not been "priced" in USD since the 1970s and the demise of Bretton Woods Agreement. The Indian, Chinese and middle eastern markets are priced in local currency and this sometimes results in a disparity of +/- 8%++ in USD terms.  It should be noted that this situation is for physical gold not Fiat (paper) gold like the Exchange traded Fund - GLD which regularly trades at a 5%+ discount to the price of physical gold.

The reason for this is simple.  Many countries impose volume restrictions / tariffs on the import and export of gold.  So the New York or London price fix is not directly relevant to those markets because it relates to the price of gold in those domestic markets.  This is especially true in China where an import tariff of 10% and a volume restriction have inflated domestic gold prices.

 

[msmoby]

If I buy and sell gold in the UK (as I used to do once upon a time as it goes), I don't do it in dollars.

I'd agree - if you were taking in the likes of andrewfi's gold bracelet - if he needed cash...BUT.. if you were - seriously trading  - it's in usd .. just like other commodities...

http://www.goldtradingexperts.com/

You are making yourself look really daft here Westy, and you have used up my allotted time for trolls for today that Moby normally sucks up.

Your time is 'wasted' attempting to 'talk up' something that makes you appear somewhat silly.. easily led, even..


If your time is so precious, don't waste my time altering folks avatars...

[B.B.]

As it was before the US existed, as it will be when the dollar is gone from world trade.

When should we expect this?  I should want to be shorting them when it happens.

B/B

[AvHdB]

Mark, You are correct, but try to pay for your groceries at Albert with a chunk of gold. Av

Try to buy them with Dollars. Equally moot point.

If you buy groceries via Albert at a Stop & Shop you generally use Dollars.

[Manny]

As it was before the US existed, as it will be when the dollar is gone from world trade.

When should we expect this?  I should want to be shorting them when it happens.

B/B

Hang on, I'll just polish my crystal ball...............

[B.B.]

As it was before the US existed, as it will be when the dollar is gone from world trade.

When should we expect this?  I should want to be shorting them when it happens.

B/B

Hang on, I'll just polish my crystal ball...............

Bummer.  You seemed so certain. 

Meanwhile I am KILLING it shorting China of an on over the past month. 

Doo-dah, doo-dah! 

B/B

[leslied]

For UK tax resident investors the most attractive form of gold investment is post 1837 sovereigns and gold Britannia coins.  As these coins are legal tender they are NOT subject to capital gains tax.  Try to buy in bulk to minimize the premium to the physical gold price. Less than 5% is good.

Same goes for silver, coins are  CGT exempt.  Silver bullion trades are subject to 20% VAT!  This explains why the silver bullion trade in UK is confined to the Jewelry market.

I think similar rules apply in other countries.  Max was professionally involved in the bullion trade before he retired.  Perhaps you can enlighten us Max?

[msmoby]

For UK tax resident investors the most attractive form of gold investment is post 1837 sovereigns and gold Britannia coins.  As these coins are legal tender they are NOT subject to capital gains tax.  Try to buy in bulk to minimize the premium to the physical gold price. Less than 5% is good.

What a coincidence..

2 days ago we were talking about this... An accountant - specialising in investments warned us that HMRC were looking at the definition of legal tender

''a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender'

The Royal Mint lists coins covered

''Notes:
In England and Wales the £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount. However, they are not legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Coins:
Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:

£100 - for any amount

£20 - for any amount

£5 (Crown) - for any amount

£2 - for any amount

£1 - for any amount

50p - for any amount not exceeding £10

25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding £10

20p - for any amount not exceeding £10

10p - for any amount not exceeding £5

5p - for any amount not exceeding £5

2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p''

Note no mention of ''Sovereigns''

This - possibly - conflicts with Leslied's and this article's advice

http://moneyweek.com/why-you-should-buy-british-gold-sovereigns-16088/

So best check.

[Markje]

Mark, You are correct, but try to pay for your groceries at Albert with a chunk of gold. Av

Try to buy them with Dollars. Equally moot point.

If you buy groceries via Albert at a Stop & Shop you generally use Dollars.

In Netherlands?

[andrewfi]

Ughhh! The level of misinform is very high here.

Banker that doesn't understand the medium that is the foundation of his business.
Debtor who wants to pay his fines in pennies.
Same debtor whose 'accountant' specialising in 'investments' is unaware of the concept of bullion coins and their tax status.
Ants who live in a time warp where the past 45 years did not happen.
Lawyers who do not understand the difference between inevitable and imminent.
There's more but looking is just so depressing. 

When writing or discussing one makes assumptions about the stuff that people know. On this forum it is customary for one to purposefully underestimate that level in order to accommodate the greater number of readers. This thread has burst the bounds of that personal convention wide open and revealed the dark underbelly of this community.

[msmoby]

Ughhh! The level of misinform is very high here.

Correct - that is the consequence of typing a 'riposte', before engaging one's 'sensible brain'.. but thanks for the continued entertainment..

Kindly find us 'your version' of what a Court -  In England and Wales - would define as legal tender in regard to coins and notes

[B.B.]

Lawyers who do not understand the difference between inevitable and imminent.

Actually, I do; it was, in fact, central to my point.  Perhaps you read my riposte to Manny as being more literal than I intended? 

B/B

[leslied]

Capital gains Tax rules are set by HM Revenue and Customs.  The high courts role is to resolve ambiguity in the relevant legislation.

Here is the pertinent page from the HMRC Capital Gains Tax Manual -

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cgmanual/cg78305.htm

There is no ambiguity here. These coins are CGT exempt.  Period.

I post about things I know about unlike some others here...

[andrewfi]

Moby, there's stuff I know. Obviously your accountant who specializes in investments does not know his stuff - does he even exist outside your imagination?

Assuming that he exists but is incompetent it took me about 60 seconds to find the HMRC page that gave guidance specifically excluding certain types of coins. Same site as Les linked to, different page.
You might want to reconsider your investment adviser and at the same time if you now have money to invest (and have paid off the money you scammed off others) it is worthwhile doing some learning for yourself so that you do not end up being scammed by incompetent or dishonest advisers.

bb, usually readers try to give credence to the words people use. Do you wish that we who read your words should NOT give them credence? If not, why write stuff that you know to be incorrect?