Do you think Ukrainians and Russians are similar or different?

[Manny]

Topic prompted by a comment from Tom today:

Russians and Ukrainians are ethnically the same?

They aren't the same; after the breakup of Kievan Rus', they evolved differently.

I wondered if Tom wanted to expand on that, and if anyone else has a view?

Does the shared history, geography and alphabet/language [mostly] make Ukrainians and Russians the same peoples?

Can they be considered generally one and the same? (Politics aside - this is not a political topic)

Or has twenty odd years of independence [and whatever that brought or didn't bring] made Ukrainians somehow different?

What say you?

[Halo]

The language and alphabet are not shared.

Any Ukrainian over 20 is the same as a Russian because they both are still products of the USSR.  You would see the difference if you knew Ukrainians, or Russians, for that matter, who did not grow up in the Soviet Union.  It will take a generation for that to subside, IMHO.

[sashathecat]

As an American I find the nationalities to be very similar. I suppose it depends on the region of Ukraine and Russia. Someone from Eastern or Southern Ukraine may have more in common with a Western Russian than that same person has with an Eastern Russian.

Would be interesting to hear the opinions of members who are Russian and Ukrainian on this. Think we have discussed this briefly in another thread, no?

[Manny]

The language and alphabet are not shared.

Please read what I actually said:

alphabet/language [mostly]

Russian is widely spoken in Ukraine. And pretty universally understood (same in any FSU place). The languages are very similar. Both use the Cyrillic alphabet. Although the odd letter may have regional variants, I think its safe to say they are broadly as similar as American and British English. Speakers of both/either understand each other.

My wife has been translating for women in Ukraine and men in the west for many years. She never learned Ukrainian, yet she never really had communication problems. Know what I mean? 

Please dont split non-existent hairs because of your anti-Russian bias and prejudices.

[Halo]

I don't have an anti Russian bias.  Unlike you, I do speak Ukrainian.  And Russian.  I can also understand Polish, though I can't speak it.  I studied Bulgarian, and can understand it, though I can't speak it.

There are other Slavic languages which use Cyrillic alphabets (besides the East Slavs, the South Slavs).  We could say those are simliar as well.  Further, even those Slavs who use Latin letters have similar, often identical words to either Russian, Ukrainian, or both. 

My husband, who learned Ukrainian on his own because he believed he should speak the language of the republic in which he lives.  He had Polish neighbours, and learned Polish as a child.  He can speak Polish, Serbo-Croatian, Czech, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Belarussian, though most Belarussians speak Russian.  That doesn't mean the languages are all the same.

Point is, they are not the same language, nor are the alphabets the same, though they are similar. 

[Manny]

I do speak Ukrainian.  And Russian. 

I never saw any evidence of that here. Not that it matters.

I can also understand Polish, though I can't speak it.  I studied Bulgarian, and can understand it, though I can't speak it.

My wife can also understand a lot of Polish, Bulgarian and seems to get by well enough in Czech. Because the languages are very similar.

There are other Slavic languages which use Cyrillic alphabets (besides the East Slavs, the South Slavs).  We could say those are simliar as well.  Further, even those Slavs who use Latin letters have similar, often identical words to either Russian, Ukrainian, or both. 

I travel eastern Europe. Probably more than you the last 15 years. You are teaching Granny to suck eggs here.

Point is, they are not the same language, nor are the alphabets the same, though they are similar.

Which is pretty much what I said originally. Can we move on from language now we both almost agree? Your closing statement is almost the same as my original line but using different words. You are splitting hairs for the sake of it.

Those who wish to read the differences in alphabet can do so here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_alphabets

Those who wish to read on the minor language variants (where even speakers of both disagree) can do so here: http://masterrussian.net/f42/ukrainian-russian-alphabet-diffs-3689/

Do you have an opinion on the topic subject?

[Halo]

I gave you my opinion.  They are both products of the Soviet Union,  If you knew Russians or  Ukrainians who escaped the USSR as children (and were born before teh 1920's), or who came from Western Ukraine after WWII, you would note the differences between them, and current generations, immediately.

I also doubt you've been to Ukraine more times than I have been in the past 15 years.

[Manny]

They are both products of the Soviet Union,  If you knew Russians or  Ukrainians who escaped the USSR as children (and were born before the 1920's), or who came from Western Ukraine after WWII, you would note the differences between them, and current generations, immediately.

By 'current generations' do you mean the children of those who left the USSR then? It is unclear from what you wrote.

[mendeleyev]

These two nations have been intertwined for centuries and as Russia grew, the capital moved. That is over simplistic, but also very true. The real split between identities sprouted at the opportunity for independence with the Bolshevik revolution. Up to that point, the Tsar was the Tsar whether his family was summering in Yalta or at Tsarskoye Selo, the Orthodox Church was the Orthodox Church whether in Vladimir or Kharkov, and those sort of ties bound the whole thing together. The threat of the sword was a fairly good glue, too.

The civil war following events in deposing the Tsar allowed a long subliminal desire for independence to emerge from the shadow, and while the Communists won the civil war, the idea of political, linguistic, and cultural independence has been there since--under the surface and waiting to flower again. Today we are watching the great divorce of that shared history.

The differences in Ukraine we see are in some ways those we've always seen: the Ruthenians, the Carpathians, Crimeans, Hutsels, etc. Those distinct cultures have survived in spite of Soviet hegemony. You can also argue the same of Russia: the Tatars, Chechens, the Ingush, Yakuts, the Buryats, etc. Where you have separate languages, you have differences in culture. Eventually, they seek independence, a la Chechnya. That principle just flows as surely as water flows with gravity. It is why someday, who knows when, Russia will lose much of the eastern territories. They're not only too far, but they're too different.

Today there are as many differences between a Muscovite and a Buryat, as between a Hollywood film producer and a Kentucky coal miner. The Muscovite and the Buryat occupy a common country, as do the Hollywood producer and the hillbilly. In both examples they speak common languages, but at heart they are as different as night and day.

Halo is 1000 percent correct when she says that the product of the failed Soviet experiment are very different in worldview from new post-Soviet generations.

[Fashionista]

These two nations have been intertwined for centuries and as Russia grew, the capital moved. That is over simplistic, but also very true. The real split between identities sprouted at the opportunity for independence with the Bolshevik revolution. Up to that point, the Tsar was the Tsar whether his family was summering in Yalta or at Tsarskoye Selo, the Orthodox Church was the Orthodox Church whether in Vladimir or Kharkov, and those sort of ties bound the whole thing together. The threat of the sword was a fairly good glue, too.

The civil war following events in deposing the Tsar allowed a long subliminal desire for independence to emerge from the shadow, and while the Communists won the civil war, the idea of political, linguistic, and cultural independence has been there since--under the surface and waiting to flower again. Today we are watching the great divorce of that shared history.

The differences in Ukraine we see are in some ways those we've always seen: the Ruthenians, the Carpathians, Crimeans, Hutsels, etc. Those distinct cultures have survived in spite of Soviet hegemony. You can also argue the same of Russia: the Tatars, Chechens, the Ingush, Yakuts, the Buryats, etc. Where you have separate languages, you have differences in culture. Eventually, they seek independence, a la Chechnya. That principle just flows as surely as water flows with gravity. It is why someday, who knows when, Russia will lose much of the eastern territories. They're not only too far, but they're too different.

Today there are as many differences between a Muscovite and a Buryat, as between a Hollywood film producer and a Kentucky coal miner. The Muscovite and the Buryat occupy a common country, as do the Hollywood producer and the hillbilly. In both examples they speak common languages, but at heart they are as different as night and day.

Halo is 1000 percent correct when she says that the product of the failed Soviet experiment are very different in worldview from new post-Soviet generations.

Mendy, I always enjoy your posts, you are very knowledgeable about many aspects of living in Russia, and have an interesting perspective, but have you just jammed Buryats together with Kentucky coal miners, while Moscovites turned out to be Hollywood producers ?   Buryat isn't a profession or a place of residence, it's an ethnic group. Buryats could be Moscovites too, you know  . Some of them even live in NYC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irina_Pantaeva I doubt she knows how to mine.

By the way, the failed Soviet experiment is the reason Buryats know how to read, believe it or not (ideological mantras aside). In this respect it brought them closer to what modern world is.

On the subject. I am not sure what differences we are talking about here. Can one difference be named explicitly? There is a lot more differences within a nation between people with different education, background and personal experiences than between some abstract averaged spherical citizens living in different countries (and in vacuum at the same time). I have a lot more in common with my Canadian friends than with a hillbilly from... Moscow 

[Ste]

Are Canadians and Americans ethnically different? I think not - equally for Ukrainians and Russians but I suppose it depends on how one defines ethnicity.

In this day and age it seems everyone is claiming they are ethnically different in some way, and using it as an excuse to wage war, claim asylum or just to appear cool.

On the other hand, coming from Bolton as I do, am I ethnically different from the Wiganers 4 miles away, because they pronounce 'weight' as 'wait'? No, it's just stupid silo'ing IMHO....

[NS1]

Ste, big difference between Canadians & Americans.
But then again, there is a big difference in Canadians.
I suspect you could say the same about Americans.
The country is big and quite different from place to place.
Very few Canadians could ever even claim to have seen most of Canada.
The fact we come from so many different parts of the world.
Thats what made Canada what it is, so many backgrounds with idea of better life.

[Ste]

Ste, big difference between Canadians & Americans.
But then again, there is a big difference in Canadians.
I suspect you could say the same about Americans.
The country is big and quite different from place to place.
Very few Canadians could ever even claim to have seen most of Canada.
The fact we come from so many different parts of the world.
Thats what made Canada what it is, so many backgrounds with idea of better life.

But ethnic differences? Suppose it's how you define 'ethnically different'.......

[NS1]

Ste, big difference between Canadians & Americans.
But then again, there is a big difference in Canadians.
I suspect you could say the same about Americans.
The country is big and quite different from place to place.
Very few Canadians could ever even claim to have seen most of Canada.
The fact we come from so many different parts of the world.
Thats what made Canada what it is, so many backgrounds with idea of better life.

But ethnic differences? Suppose it's how you define 'ethnically different'.......

True, but consider most of Canada is made up of ethnically different backgrounds.

[Fashionista]

In this day and age it seems everyone is claiming they are ethnically different in some way, and using it as an excuse to wage war, claim asylum or just to appear cool.

I'll take appearing cool vs waging a war any time  . It's not the ethnic differences that are used to wage wars IMO, it's cultural mythology typically professing some variety of superiority (moral or otherwise). It exists in every culture, so an inquisitive mind always has something to work with if so desires 

[Markje]

Any Ukrainian over 20 is the same as a Russian because they both are still products of the USSR. 

I beg to disagree on this.

Many Russians I find are more Agressive, ego-centric and downride Ruder than Ukrainians.

That said:
Many Ukrainians are far more materialistic and money-grubbers than Russians.

There are more differences, but those 2 come to mind as a casual observasion of Ukrainian/Russian tourists when sitting in a Restaurant near them. And i observed a lot the last 2 weeks 

[2tallbill]

What say you?

I think that you are instigating a big ole scrap 

[Jeffery]

I beg to disagree on this.

Many Russians I find are more Agressive, ego-centric and downride Ruder than Ukrainians.

That's funny. I share the same sentiments.
In other words, I notice a difference. 

[sashathecat]

I find Russians more reserved than Ukrainians.

[Jeffery]

Are Canadians and Americans ethnically different? I think not - equally for Ukrainians and Russians but I suppose it depends on how one defines ethnicity.

Ste, although your comment that helped spawn this thread mentioned "ethnically different", Manny chose not to include it in the title.

There is a big difference between
" Do you think Ukrainians and Russians are similar or different? "  and
" Do you think Ukrainians and Russians are ethnically similar or different ? "

And then you transfer this to Americans and Canadians! 

I will answer both questions as they pertain to Americans and Canadians, even though it is hijacking the thread.

" Do you think Americans and Canadians are ethnically similar or different ? "
The peoples who founded our nations were quite similar ethnically.
Since then however, major changes have taken place and now they are quite different.

" Do you think Americans and Canadians are similar or different? "
Different in many ways.

[Ste]

Are Canadians and Americans ethnically different? I think not - equally for Ukrainians and Russians but I suppose it depends on how one defines ethnicity.

Ste, although your comment that helped spawn this thread mentioned "ethnically different", Manny chose not to include it in the title.

There is a big difference between
" Do you think Ukrainians and Russians are similar or different? "  and
" Do you think Ukrainians and Russians are ethnically similar or different ? "

And then you transfer this to Americans and Canadians! 

I will answer both questions as they pertain to Americans and Canadians, even though it is hijacking the thread.

" Do you think Americans and Canadians are ethnically similar or different ? "
The peoples who founded our nations were quite similar ethnically.
Since then however, major changes have taken place and now they are quite different.

" Do you think Americans and Canadians are similar or different? "
Different in many ways.

Define 'ethnically'?

Sources silo this to the extreme, whereas IMHO its less broad, Ukrainians, Russians, Czechs, Poles et al are all Slavs. The English are Saxon, the Scots and Welsh are Celts, there's more of a difference there but no immediate urge to fight, down aeroplanes or kill each other.

Yet I don't feel ethnically different than my Scots, Welsh and Irish brethren, this is new term to attempt to categorise people, divide and conquer etc..

A load of shite, Ukraine has only existed for about 40 years, it was never a separate state before fall of USSR, it was always some part of what was Rus' and what became the USSR, added to that the USSR moved Soviet Citizens around the USSR so much so Nadia's mother is from Kazakhstan but is Russian ethnically, she has family in Kiev too, all ethnic Russian whatever that means but they are all former Soviets.

Can you be ethnically Soviet?

[Inferno]

A lot of millions ethnic Ukrainian live in Russia , speak Russian and have Russian citisenchip, so they are Russian.)))

[Annushka]

A lot of millions ethnic Ukrainian live in Russia , speak Russian and have Russian citisenchip, so they are Russian.)))

All the rest - hohols!

[2tallbill]

All the rest - hohols!

Annushka, I didn't expect rudeness from you.

Hohol₁
A derogatory term used to describe a Ukrainian . One is usually tall, has a
high pitched voice, and has small balls. They enjoy making a beet soup
known as Borsch.

"Hey man did you hear that high pitched scream in the middle of the night?"

"Ya that must have been Serhiy the hohol spilling boiling Borsch all over his balls"

Russians and Poles commonly use the word khokhol (Polish: chochoł or chachoł) as an ethnic slur for Ukrainians, as it was a common haircut of Cossacks.
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khokhol#cite_note-1

[Manny]

Russians and Poles commonly use the word khokhol (Polish: chochoł or chachoł)

No, that cant be right. Halo tells us all these languages are as different as night and day.