Miracles do happen.

[sharonhaber00]

You are developping interesting clues, but probably because of language, it is difficult to understand you.

For this I'm here, and if you didn't understand something, you can ask and I will clarify for you.

If i understand you through the lines i would correct some issues about what you "told" us :

I meant exactly what I "told" you.

The only way to attract is to be yourself / unfortunately in western countries this is not enough and doesn't fit with the true (TRUE has to be shifted) expectations of WM.

It is a condition. I mean to behave naturally. It maybe not enough and require more skills, but I meant it is the basic.

Pick up experts say when someone is comfort he can attract women without notice / absolutely true but comfort is only one of the piece of attraction.

Sure there is more, but not possible without comfort.

You have surely noticed that sometime when you are not interested by a woman you show her the appropriate behavior which attracts her.

This is exactly what I mean. 

They try to be liked and nice and this is false / Who ? PUA, surely not, absolutely not. A lot guys, nice guys yes.

Will you excuse me, I don't know what PUA is. I talked about guys who feel uncomfortable to approach women who attract them and start conversation, even though they want it, but they luck of experience. If they would behave naturally they could do it. If somebody try to be nice it's not a natural nice.

/ you are right self esteem and confidence is the KEY.

I know, self esteem follows the right actions. It something you must earn. Being rejected makes bad to the self esteem for many guys. The difference between low self esteem and the high one is that the last doesn't care to be rejected and therefore try over and over again. The pick up experts compare it to a baby who learns to walk.



 



 

 

[TomT]

Interestingly, the ones who were intimate the first week they met are not together.  The guys who waited are.  Most fall in the middle.   

Most relationships fail whether people consummate them or not, however.

[Mark Davis]

Most relationships fail whether people consummate them or not, however.

That's not statistically true - at least not with international marriages.  And 99% consummate long before the wedding day.

[shakespear]

That's not statistically true - at least not with international marriages.  And 99% consummate long before the wedding day. 

Mark:

The US divorce rate is somewhere close to 50%.  With all the language and cultural difference, one would assume that the international marriage divorce rate would be higher (especially the WM-FSU woman marriage).

Are you advocating this is not true?

Shakey

[Manny]

I have had guys who waited until the wedding night. 

Most people would consider that extremely foolish. I have yet to meet any woman who would go for that either. Women are not stupid; they want to make sure a guy is not a dud in the sack. No woman wants to marry Mr Floppy.

I've had a few who became intimate their first week that they met.  Interestingly, the ones who were intimate the first week they met are not together.  The guys who waited are.  Most fall in the middle.   

I call BS here. Here in Europe, intimacy within the first week would be quite normal in any country and across any age and social group with well adjusted people who had healthy attitudes to sex. In the FSU also; if not more so. You are trying to create 'norms' here that might sit well with your clients that actually are completely untrue.

However, men who are more socially awkward around women, or those who seek huge age gaps, will end up waiting longer due to inexperience. Religious types may like to wait until a wedding.

I have yet to see anything anywhere that supports your theory that those who got intimate within a week have shorter relationships as a result. In fact, if you use the forum demographic, the converse is the case. Men who come back after the first trip still with a full box of condoms are more often than not those who become train crashes. Because the woman simply wasn't that into him and the guy couldn't read it.

[NS1]

There is no statistics on on FSUW / WM
But I went looking last  year and found a small study from a University
in US 36% divorce rate and a larger study form the UK which was 41 or 42 %
Don't have the sites now and this was based on International relationships.
They were both very reputable Universities.
Not sure how much that helps, but both numbers were lower than US and Canada
which is over 50%.

Only logic, I could put to this is if you get to the point of marriage and all it takes to
accomplish, that if there is a problem you will likely work harder to resolve it!
Than to just walk away, which seems to be common place in north America now.

I do think we had a discussion on this last year, some where.

[NS1]

I have had guys who waited until the wedding night. 

Most people would consider that extremely foolish. I have yet to meet any woman who would go for that either. Women are not stupid; they want to make sure a guy is not a dud in the sack. No woman wants to marry Mr Floppy.

I've had a few who became intimate their first week that they met.  Interestingly, the ones who were intimate the first week they met are not together.  The guys who waited are.  Most fall in the middle.   

I call BS here. Here in Europe, intimacy within the first week would be quite normal in any country and across any age and social group with well adjusted people who had healthy attitudes to sex. In the FSU also; if not more so. You are trying to create 'norms' here that might sit well with your clients that actually are completely untrue.

However, men who are more socially awkward around women, or those who seek huge age gaps, will end up waiting longer due to inexperience. Religious types may like to wait until a wedding.

I have yet to see anything anywhere that supports your theory that those who got intimate within a week have shorter relationships as a result. In fact, if you use the forum demographic, the converse is the case. Men who come back after the first trip still with a full box of condoms are more often than not those who become train crashes. Because the woman simply wasn't that into him and the guy couldn't read it.

I would never wait till married, not only does she want to know about MR floppy.
I want to know if she is into it, good at or whatever, before I make serious commitment.
Levels of compatibility include sexual IMO

[shakespear]

I call BS here. Here in Europe, intimacy within the first week would be quite normal in any country and across any age and social group with well adjusted people who had healthy attitudes to sex. In the FSU also; if not more so. You are trying to create 'norms' here that might sit well with your clients that actually are completely untrue.

However, men who are more socially awkward around women, or those who seek huge age gaps, will end up waiting longer due to inexperience. Religious types may like to wait until a wedding.

I have yet to see anything anywhere that supports your theory that those who got intimate within a week have shorter relationships as a result. In fact, if you use the forum demographic, the converse is the case. Men who come back after the first trip still with a full box of condoms are more often than not those who become train crashes. Because the woman simply wasn't that into him and the guy couldn't read it.

I have to agree 100% with Manny on every single point.

In fact, from a cultural perspective a well-mannered FSU woman would not take any outward action to insult or hurt someone she considers a guest to her city.  Neophytes in the process usually mistakenly interpret this polite avoidance of intimacy as thinking "she needs more time" when that is almost always never the case.  Almost always it is "she's just not that in to you"!

For the record Mark, Olga and I were intimate during the "fourth" date.  Our 10 year wedding anniversary is in July.  That's one you'll know of anyway 

[patagonie]

There is no statistics on on FSUW / WM
But I went looking last  year and found a small study from a University
in US 36% divorce rate and a larger study form the UK which was 41 or 42 %
Don't have the sites now and this was based on International relationships.
They were both very reputable Universities.
Not sure how much that helps, but both numbers were lower than US and Canada
which is over 50%.

Only logic, I could put to this is if you get to the point of marriage and all it takes to
accomplish, that if there is a problem you will likely work harder to resolve it!
Than to just walk away, which seems to be common place in north America now.

I do think we had a discussion on this last year, some where.

"Only logic, I could put to this is if you get to the point of marriage and all it takes to
accomplish, that if there is a problem you will likely work harder to resolve it!
Than to just walk away, which seems to be common place in north America now."

I think it is a big factor in success. When you have invest a huge time, a huge amount of money, and invest a lot of emotion, you are really ready to do your best to keep this marriage. And for her i imagine this is the same. You learn to be patient because of the difference of culture, of language, in economics. So you would do your best  in your country too.

[TomT]

Men who come back after the first trip still with a full box of condoms are more often than not those who become train crashes.

That's a bad example because it doesn't account for the guys who didn't bring 'em, didn't use 'em and, perhaps, wish that they had used 'em.

[Halo]

There is no statistics on on FSUW / WM

Yes, there are.  I cited one in the past, which was published in both Russian and American academic journals that found a higher divorce rate than for domestic marriages.  Further, the divorce "rate" in the US is not 50%.  I've provided links to this in the past.

Another forum commissioned a study in 2008-2009 (I believe), with a fair number of respondents from a number of sources (all starting online).  All were FSUW/WM, and a statistician was hired to compile the data.  The overall divorce rate was, I think, a little over 40%.  However, Jooky (who makes rare appearances here) broke down the data further because he said "new" marriages (the year of the survey or the preceding year) skewed the results.  These responses are from male respondents only, and the percentages are divorce rates.

Married 2009 4 /26 15%
Married 2008 9 / 118 07%
Married 2007 16 / 138 11%
Married 2006 22 / 129 17%
Married 2005 14 / 49 28%
 
Married 2004 22 / 47 46%
Married 2003 18 / 25 72%
Married 2002 20 / 30 67%
Married 2001 23 / 41 56%
Married 2000 25 / 28 89%
Married 1999 61 / 81 75% (1999 and before)
 

[Manny]

Men who come back after the first trip still with a full box of condoms are more often than not those who become train crashes.

That's a bad example because it doesn't account for the guys who didn't bring 'em, didn't use 'em and, perhaps, wish that they had used 'em.

I was using a polite metaphor. 

Much of the one-to-one phone consultation my wife and/or I have done has been on this subject. Typically, a guy will have visited two or three times. Nothing much has happened. If he has broached the subject with the woman, the 'reasons' vary from time of the month through to religion and even 'good girls don't'. The prognosis is always the same: she just isn't that into you.

It has been said often: When a Russian speaking woman is into you, you will know about it sooner rather than later.

Assuming the guy is socially capable and experienced with women, if it hasn't happened on the first visit (and we'll assume the first visit comprises at least seven dates), - devout religion excepted - its relatively safe to assume it isn't going to. There is no shortage of available women, so even if the odd good one gets away using that criteria, like a bus, another will be along in a moment.

The thing is, socially capable men and those who are experienced with women generally, learn the ropes of this endeavour - by books, forums, school of hard knocks or whatever means - and take a crack at going it alone. Those who are shy, lack confidence, are socially awkward or lack experience with women will find comfort in a group/tour/social setting or a wingman/mentor setting and generally need more um... guidance. Those are the blokes who will buy piffle like:

I've had a few who became intimate their first week that they met.  Interestingly, the ones who were intimate the first week they met are not together.  The guys who waited are.  Most fall in the middle.   

This makes the guy from a different culture, who might not be super confident with women feel OK about not having early success. He will believe from piffle like this that those who "rush" get it wrong. This may lull him into a false sense of security. This may make him depend on his chosen wing-people even more hoping to achieve success. 

On one of the websites recently linked about Mark and his wife, I saw their respective ages in brackets after their names. By so highlighting it, it suggested to me not only that this was their targetted USP (easy meat), but suggests to Joe Sixpack that he can pull off the same age gap with ease. That demonstrably isn't the case. Mark had the attributes his wife was looking for at that time and in her situation - and vice versa. That they are still together and happy makes them the exception rather than the norm.

My advice to those that are not sufficiently au fait with women generally is to practice at home until you know what you are doing. If you cant get it right at home, you wont pull it off with a language barrier, a cultural barrier and especially with a decade or two between you. No amount of wing-people, dollars, webinars, succinct marketing or free ebooks is a substitute for feet-on-the-ground experience and taking the slow road of learning about the society and culture you seek to delve into.

[TomT]

Assuming the guy is socially capable and experienced with women, if it hasn't happened on the first visit (and we'll assume the first visit comprises at least seven dates), - devout religion excepted - its relatively safe to assume it isn't going to.

Speaking of that, I wonder how it went for Chris.

[2tallbill]

Speaking of that, I wonder how it went for Chris.

I am only speculating but I would match any bet that he is back home
and the plastic is still around the full pack of Condoms.

[2tallbill]

Men who come back after the first trip still with a full box of condoms are more often than not those who become train crashes.

If you are speaking about WOVO I agree.

If a guy visits many then depending on the length of the trip especially one week
trippers, there is a chance that he won't narrow things down quickly enough on
the first trip.

[Justmd]

Mark Davis,

You are 49 and your wife is 23...my son is 23! I have nothing else to say on this TR.

[AvHdB]

There is no statistics on on FSUW / WM

Yes, there are.  I cited one in the past, which was published in both Russian and American academic journals that found a higher divorce rate than for domestic marriages.  Further, the divorce "rate" in the US is not 50%.  I've provided links to this in the past.

Another forum commissioned a study in 2008-2009 (I believe), with a fair number of respondents from a number of sources (all starting online).  All were FSUW/WM, and a statistician was hired to compile the data.  The overall divorce rate was, I think, a little over 40%.  However, Jooky (who makes rare appearances here) broke down the data further because he said "new" marriages (the year of the survey or the preceding year) skewed the results.  These responses are from male respondents only, and the percentages are divorce rates.

Married 2009 4 /26 15%
Married 2008 9 / 118 07%
Married 2007 16 / 138 11%
Married 2006 22 / 129 17%
Married 2005 14 / 49 28%
 
Married 2004 22 / 47 46%
Married 2003 18 / 25 72%
Married 2002 20 / 30 67%
Married 2001 23 / 41 56%
Married 2000 25 / 28 89%
Married 1999 61 / 81 75% (1999 and before)

I read a report from an interfaith group a couple years back. What struck me was those who married outside there own faith but inside there own religion managed percentage wise make a go of it. I do not remember how far back it went, but it was long term.

The odd thing & that was what I studied, was people who married outside there own culture but within there own religion. So i.e. Slavic with Caucasian or Hispanic with Slavic or what ever that these relationships seemed to last longer. I know if you read a site such as AFA they insist that the cross cultural relationships last longer and are more stable.

Looking at the numbers above they are sobering, especially over the long term.

[TomT]

Mark Davis,

You are 49 and your wife is 23...my son is 23! I have nothing else to say on this TR.

I'm sure that Mark would have chosen a different wife if he had known that you would object to Anna.

[Larry]

Mark Davis,

You are 49 and your wife is 23...my son is 23! I have nothing else to say on this TR.

Looks like Mark will have to get some friends with younger sons.

[Justmd]

Mark Davis,

You are 49 and your wife is 23...my son is 23! I have nothing else to say on this TR.

Looks like Mark will have to get some friends with younger sons.

or older daughters.

[PBRstreetg]

To TomT: 10-9 but I get it 

To Manny: yo comprendo and that's a big 10-4

[Halo]

I read a report from an interfaith group a couple years back. What struck me was those who married outside there own faith but inside there own religion managed percentage wise make a go of it. I do not remember how far back it went, but it was long term.

The odd thing & that was what I studied, was people who married outside there own culture but within there own religion. So i.e. Slavic with Caucasian or Hispanic with Slavic or what ever that these relationships seemed to last longer. I know if you read a site such as AFA they insist that the cross cultural relationships last longer and are more stable.

Looking at the numbers above they are sobering, especially over the long term.

That statistic marries up to what I have observed locally.  Of all the couples I have known, the FSUW- WM marriages that have lasted are either of the same religion (Jewish), or FSUW (including RW) who married ethnically UM, which is a large community where I live (Alberta). 

One of the reasons I suggest men avoid Ukraine is because so many Ukrainians wish to emigrate, due to the economy, corruption, and political uncertainty.  When those are factors, you don't really know if the woman is marrying you or looking for an escape.  However, those figures are rising for Russia as well, even if the economy is more stable.

[Halo]

Mark Davis,

You are 49 and your wife is 23...my son is 23! I have nothing else to say on this TR.

I'm sure that Mark would have chosen a different wife if he had known that you would object to Anna.

I suspect it is just how much weight should be given to the advice of such a couple (as I understand, their advice is "as a couple"). 

If married six years, was she 17 when they married?

[Justmd]

Mark Davis,

You are 49 and your wife is 23...my son is 23! I have nothing else to say on this TR.

I'm sure that Mark would have chosen a different wife if he had known that you would object to Anna.

So you approve of such a age difference? Tom...you are a fraud.

[Justmd]

Mark Davis,

You are 49 and your wife is 23...my son is 23! I have nothing else to say on this TR.

I'm sure that Mark would have chosen a different wife if he had known that you would object to Anna.

I suspect it is just how much weight should be given to the advice of such a couple (as I understand, their advice is "as a couple"). 

If married six years, was she 17 when they married?

My thoughts also...sad! Ward and these guys should hook up.