How the story turned out for American man & Russian woman: Don't touch me, marry

[andrewfi]

For what it is worth twice I have realized the kids are nicer than the mothers.

Just be careful about where THAT thought leads you!

[andrewfi]

Phil, there is nothing you can do.

There is nothing that you NEED to do.

There is nothing that you should do.

This woman found a good 'host' - you. Good because you want things to be right, probably not just in respect of this woman, but the rest of your life too.
This is bad for you because people like this can take without limit.

You can not make the world right. This woman is not going to accept responsibility for her actions and nothing will get better until either she does this OR she reaches 40 and is still alive. It is reckoned that around 75% of women with BPD find their BPD issues are vastly reduced, or sometimes gone by that age, but a good number of women by that time will be dead or destroyed by their addictions and poor lifestyle choices.

You have a problem - it is I think similar to that which I faced. Apart from the relationship, the sex (oh yes the sex!) and the feeling of being loved absolutely all of which are reasons that some guys have been known to seek out women with BPD what might be happening is that this woman gave purpose to your life and bought a measure of excitement into it. In itself this might be an addiction.

Remember, you and this woman will not be together. She WILL try to recontact you and you will give in because of the sex and the excitement and the feelings she knows very well how to bring out in you.

Here's what to do:
Stop communicating with her directly or indirectly. Cut off your relationship with 'Scout' he is not your friend. Change your phone number. Block this woman's email address, or better yet change yours AND block hers. Forget about the kid, she has many years more experience of dealing with her mother, but will have learned much from her and that will do you and 'Scout' no good whatsoever.

Find another woman, several women. Remove the imprint of this woman's sexuality from your mind. (Going out on a limb here, but guessing you have not had sex since she and you parted?)
Get rid of pictures of this woman. Make her an unperson.
This is not easy, really! It is bloody hard. For sure I am not entirely successful, but the imprint fades. But, if you ain't getting good sex with nice women it'll be harder!

[mobyone]

Find another woman, several women. Remove the imprint of this woman's sexuality from your mind. (Going out on a limb here, but guessing you have not had sex since she and you parted?)

To the OP... andrewfi's advice was spot on up to here .. move on..

But that doesn't mean you need to answer andrewfi's question re your sexual activities... It's none of his / our business.

Sex without love can be a very unrewarding - if not saddening  experience - it is rather typical of our perennially single 'expert' to seem to suggest it might be just what you need !

You're going to find it REALLY hard to find a new partner if you discuss this past relationship in too much detail.

A tip I've learnt- and still forget -  Breakups and their circumstances are most important to those directly involved and NOT the subject of pre-dating or first date conversations..they are more likely to be a BIG turn off.


Good luck, matey

[andrewfi]

hmmm... I think that most literate people would understand the question was rhetorical - a technique in writing used, in this case, to lead to demonstrate an identification with the reader.

Imprinting of a former lover on one's mind is a significant issue with moving on. With BPD sex is usually something of a core competence of the sufferer and is used to strong effect in binding a contact to her; thus it becomes important to change that imprint to enable moving on. This is stuff you'd know about if you had 'been there' or bothered to do a little learning before criticising. 
In fact, in normal life, this is why we have and refer to 'rebound relationships' and why they are rarely ever long term. They form a transition from one serious relationship to another.

Welcome back moby, I hope your troubles are sorted and that you will henceforth not post like a twat. All you need do is 'do the learning' and not jump to conclusions.

[mobyone]

hmmm... I think that most literate people would understand the question was rhetorical - a technique in writing used, in this case, to lead to demonstrate an identification with the reader.

Most literate (sensible - inferring 'normal') people would not even dean to pose the question at all...

Imprinting of a former lover on one's mind is a significant issue with moving on. With BPD sex is usually something of a core competence of the sufferer and is used to strong effect in binding a contact to her; thus it becomes important to change that imprint to enable moving on. This is stuff you'd know about if you had 'been there' or bothered to do a little learning before criticising. 
In fact, in normal life, this is why we have and refer to 'rebound relationships' and why they are rarely ever long term. They form a transition from one serious relationship to another.

Andrewfi, your inability to realise that you frequently cross the Rubicon of reasonableness with you advice, which is so opt coupled with suggestions of a lack of intelligence on the part of your 'advisory' needs constant highlighting - your 'advice' frequently has most folk in a long-term monogamous relationship rolling in the isles.

Sadly, I doubt it's going to relieve the lugubriousness of the OP's posts and would be counter to his 'recovery'.

I actually doubt you care about the poster, too much - you simply enjoy posting what you assume to be 'good advise'

Welcome back moby, I hope your troubles are sorted and that you will henceforth not post like a twat. All you need do is 'do the learning' and not jump to conclusions.

Your 'welcome -  like this latest 'advice' -  is as insincere as most of your posts....

Mostly, they entertain - but too often they are ramblings of a guy who - let's not forget - gives 'advice', but we have yet to see you in a stable relationship - so you'll 'forgive' me if I smile when you refer to me as a part of a female's genitalia
 .... 

[Philnatseaman]

Find another woman, several women. Remove the imprint of this woman's sexuality from your mind. (Going out on a limb here, but guessing you have not had sex since she and you parted?)

To the OP... andrewfi's advice was spot on up to here .. move on..

But that doesn't mean you need to answer andrewfi's question re your sexual activities... It's none of his / our business.

Sex without love can be a very unrewarding - if not saddening  experience - it is rather typical of our perennially single 'expert' to seem to suggest it might be just what you need !

You're going to find it REALLY hard to find a new partner if you discuss this past relationship in too much detail.

A tip I've learnt- and still forget -  Breakups and their circumstances are most important to those directly involved and NOT the subject of pre-dating or first date conversations..they are more likely to be a BIG turn off.

Good luck, matey

For the record, I've had more sex since she left than I did while she was here.  Recall I went back to an ex-girlfriend and she helped me find the resolve to get the restraining order and get this woman out of my house.

But AndrewFi's advice to me is spot-on here.  He understands an intimate relationship with a BPD woman in ways that few others seem able to.  I've noticed it's one of those things where only those with direct personal experience really "get it" about what it's like dealing with such a woman. 

Your advice is helpful too.  I will avoid the temptation to share the train-wreck juicy details of this with other future relationships until well into the relationship, if ever. 

In the grand scheme of things, I was very fortunate to get this woman out of my life before she did much damage to me personally, other than financially in the cost of bringing her here.

[Philnatseaman]

I posted the following summary at VJ, and they removed the post and suspended me for 48 hours.  It baffles/amuses me how they can be such a great resource on Visa-related things, but on other things, like dealing with a psycho-fiancee gone wild, they can be such a bunch of scaredy-cat numb-nuts, and have such a bunch of idiots who post cynical and ignorant things.  I was not surprised *this time* by their actions, as it is starting to be a pattern.  Here is what I posted, and it serves as a good summary of the whole episode to date.  Apologies if this is somewhat redundant here.
=========================================================================================

Posted Today, 03:36 AM
OMG, the moderators are going to hate me even more... but it's immigration related, and people need to be aware of the twists and turns this can take.
Now we have a fraudulent "U" visa application in the works, accepted by USCIS, and she's legally here as a result even though the K-1 expired in early October 2011.

For the full history, epic threads parts I and II go here:
Part I: www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/319747-has-this-story-ever-turned-out-well-for-american-man-and-russian-woman/
Part II: http://www.visajourn...-russian-woman/

People should know it didn't end as I thought it had, and it's now like a bad horror movie where the monster moves on to a new victim. Remember that movie, "The Orphan"? Or the movie, "The Stepfather"? In those movies, the (cute little girl/hunky 30-something man) would get a new family (to adopt her/by romancing a single mother), and then kill the family? Well, thankfully, nobody has died here, though three of us came close in our villain's steering wheel grab-and-yank at 60mph, described in part I. I'm going to summarize and keep it brief and to the point as best I can. I think it's relevant FROM AN IMMIGRATION STANDPOINT, because YOUR FIANCE/EE has options, never mind whether you marry them or not.
I will summarize it from the top, so you don't have to cope with the nearly 30 pages of the other thread, if you are new to this mess:

1) Fiancee and 15 year old daughter arrived in early July 2011. They are from Kishinev, Moldova. That is about 2 hours from Odessa, Ukraine. My fiancee and her daughter are primarily Russian/Ukrainian.

2) Things went bad in a hurry. Fiancee, who is fluent in English and worked as an English/Russian interpreter and translator, began a habit of cursing at me in Russian in front of her daughter whenever I displeased her. She had wild mood swings and also was prone to hitting and physical violence. I told her not OK. She sort of listened and partially observed this limit, for a while, anyway.

3) I asked for help on VJ forums. People suggested my fiancee was bipolar. I looked. She didn't fit bipolar. I ran across info on Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) in my searching. BPD seemed to accurately describe her behavior and way of being.

4) I confronted my fiancee with my concerns involving BPD, and asked her to get an assessment, and then participate in any recommendations that came out of that. My fiancee decided that I was the one with BPD, and that she would only get an assessment if I first did. Then she decided she would agree to get assessed for BPD promptly AFTER we were married.

5) I managed to video-record a few minutes of her Russian tirades, using my smartphone camera. I've since had them translated, and the content is interesting, to say the least. She was saying some very unkind things to me. Her performance in these videos would have been very problematic to anyone who thinks she is a sweet, innocent sympathetic victim and I'm an evil villain. She says things in Russian like "you wont be able to pick up ur pieces with ur ####" and "Too bad I don’t have anything to f-- you with otherwise I would. " and "That emotional state that you drive me today is a nothing compare to what I’m capable for. You will “fly” in an apartments like a ball... I will be kicking you off all walls, f---." and "I want you to go and shoot yourself, f---. I hate you so much. If you just knew how much I hate you. And even if you saying that you don’t understand what I’m saying – you should feel hate I feel to you, without words. Understand? Capisce? "

6) I began seeing a previous girlfriend. Yes, go ahead and bash me. I was a bad boy, and my fiancee was not sleeping in the same room, not keeping USA hours, not speaking to me in English for days at a time. This was my way of trying to avoid getting sucked into her BPD alternate reality. It's very psychologically battering living with a BPD.

7) Things became unsalvageable. While we were driving on freeway at 60mph, returning from visiting her girlfriend who married an American man, my fiancee grabbed and yanked the steering wheel, car swerved wildly and I barely regained control. She endangered my life and life of her 15 year old daughter. Fiancee saw nothing wrong with her actions and blamed me as the cause, I made her angry, as she was convinced I "hated her friends". Fiancee told me she was not ready to go back to her country, I should not change the tickets to earlier, and she would not go back unless I gave her a lot of money.

8) I realized the situation had become very dangerous to me, from assorted threats and violent behaviors by fiancee, to concerns about being set up for false allegations by fiancee. I went to court and got a domestic violence restraining order. My fiancee was removed from my house by police, and I arranged accommodations for her and her daughter at a local hotel. Fiancee disappeared from hotel after two days, and her friends disavowed all knowledge of her whereabouts. I had no idea where she (they) were and who was taking care of them.

9) Two weeks later, fiancee shows up in family court to fight the restraining order, with coaching from the man, for whom she had worked as an interpreter back in her country. There was a contentious 45-minute contested hearing in family court. I prevailed, there was a finding of domestic violence against my fiancee, and the restraining order was made permanent, at least through her scheduled departure date of early October.

10) Fiancee's American friend acknowledged he had been taking care of her the whole time, and his earlier statements disavowing all knowledge were untrue. He demanded that I pay him money for my (ex) fiancee's living expenses between time of restraining order and her return flight in early October.

11) I did not send money to her American friend. After reflecting on the lies, I decided he could pay for his own effort at chivalry, and for their own nice vacation time together.

12) After about a month of her being gone from my house, I got a call from the county sheriff's department. It was from their lead sex crimes investigator. They wanted to talk to me about allegations my ex-fiancee had made against me. She had alleged that I had kept her and her daughter prisoner in my house, and that I had forced myself on her non-consensually, aka "rape". The allegations were, of course, desperate lies, some sort of Hail-Mary pass, possibly angling for a "U' or "T" visa for crime victims or trafficking victims. Or possibly just spiteful to try to damage me and cause me expense and difficulty.

13) I met with the sex crimes detective. The allegations of being "imprisoned" that she described, the detective had already told her were not crimes. My failure to provide 24x7 taxi service to a fiancee who was still operating on Ukraine time, rising at 1pm, to bed at 3 am, did not rise to the level of a crime. All that was left from her allegations was one specific claim which was about 2 weeks before I got the restraining order and had her removed, belatedly alleging that she said "no" and I proceeded anyway. With no physical evidence, corroborating witnesses, etc., it was a he-said, she-said case. The detective said he would forward his report to the county prosecutor for a charging decision. I supplied the detective with additional information about witness credibility problems the state would have at trial, if they charged me. I later heard the county prosecutor had explicitly declined to take the case to the charging stage.

14) Oct. 4, 2011 the return date of my ex-fiancee's ticket arrived, which was also the 90th day of her K-1 visa. I called the airlines, they confirmed that she and her daughter had boarded the scheduled flight.

=============================================================
PART III: The serial false accuser moves on to a new family.
This has gotten confusing keeping track of persons. So I will give pseudonyms to the parties involved.
My ex-fiancee: Nastya Bordelinakova
Her teenage daughter: Daria Bordelinakova
Ex-fiancee's American friend: Scout
Nastya's lifelong "friend", Scout's wife: Alla
Scout's 25 year old adult son: Rusty
Rusty's wife, mother of new infant: Crystal

15) EARLY FEB 2012: I received an email from the American friend who had helped my ex-fiance. SHE'S STILL IN THE USA!! THE AIRLINES LIED!! LIARS!! MY EX-FIANCEE WAS NOT ON THE PLANE!! I'm sure the airline was just clueless and answered me incorrectly, and no actual malice on their part.

Nastya is still in the USA, and on track for a "U" Visa, as a result of her false allegation of rape against me, which law enforcement declined to charge. Except Scout, her American friend, wrote to me that now she has bragged about her cleverness, that she made up the rape accusation, how clever she is, how stupid American officials are and how easy it was to get them to believe her and for her to manipulate the system. She was thrown out of two different places for her behavior in lying and creating drama that pitted people against each other, and went to California. Now, from California, she is making allegations against this man who helped her.

Nastya applied for a "U" crime victims visa, with the help of Scout. Recall that after I had her removed from my house on Aug. 12, 2011 with a Domestic Violence Restraining Order, which she contested and lost on Aug. 25, she belatedly accused me of "raping" her. The county sheriff's lead sex crimes investigator interviewed me. At the time, he acknowledged that they had a rather weak case with no evidence, simply he said/she said, and the fact the charges came after I got her removed made it look questionable. Well, apparently she was a good enough actress as she told him how rotten and evil I was, and he felt sorry for her, and he decided to fill out the law enforcement part of the U Visa for her. So she has a "U" Visa in process.

So, she and her teenage daughter Daria stayed at Scout's house for a month or two, overstaying the K-1 Visa and skipping out of the Oct. 4, 2011 return flight. Things were sort of OK for those couple months, but things did get stressful at times. Daria asked Scout about her biological father, and Scout urged Nastya to level with her daughter about who her father was, since he knew that Nastya had lied to Daria about who her father was. Recall that Nastya displays pervasive Borderline Personality Disorder behaviors, and Daria is her "constant object", so anything that would risk her being losing/being abandoned by Daria will trigger intense hatred from Nastya. So Nastya "split" Scout at that point, from being her rescuer, to being the devil with horns. All good or all bad, no in-between, and now Scout is on Nastya's split-bad list.

Then Scout's young adult son, call him Rusty, and his wife, call her Crystal, decided that perhaps Nastya could be their live-in nanny for their infant daughter, and brought Nastya and Daria to live at their home, which is in the same city as me, a little over an hour's drive away from Scout. Over the course of 3 months, Nastya alienated Rusty and Crystal, by, among other things, attempting to give Crystal lessons in how to be a good wife and mother, and refusing to follow Crystal's instructions in how situations with the baby would be handled. During her time there, Nasty also bragged to Rusty and Crystal, on separate occasions, about how she made up the story about the rape, and fooled the stupid detective into sign on to the "U" Visa application.

After a month at Rusty and Crystal's, Nastya made up a story that Scout and her 15 year old daughter Daria were having some sort of inappropriate relationship, and managed to briefly convince them there was some substance to her claim. The result was hatred of Rusty and Crystal towards Rusty's father Scout, and a split family. Rusty and Crystal decided to secretly monitor communications, and discovered there was no substance to Nastya's allegations. They were so angry at Nastya and her lies, and the drama she created, they told her to get out of the house NOW and she and Daria had to pack up their stuff. Scout then drove down and picked up Nastya and Darya, took them to a hotel near the train station, and the next day Nastya and Daria were on the train to Los Angeles, to stay with some friends Nastya knows there.

Scout and Daria stayed in touch, always initiated by Daria, after she and Nastya were in Los Angeles. Within a couple days, Nastya went to the local police, and complained that Scout was cyber-stalking her daughter, and shared this story with her new hosts, creating a crisis and enlisting the more committed help of her new hosts, to protect this damsel-in-distress and her daughter from this evil cyber-stalker.

It was at this point Scout contacted me, and shared the story of how Nastya had bragged about her false rape accusations against me, and had used this trick to successfully get a "U" visa accepted and in process. It turns out that Scout's Russian wife, Alla, also knew the allegations were false, as Nastya spoke to her in Russian about how she was making the rape story up, and asked Alla for ideas for details to flesh out the fabrication, while they were all together and Scout was wroting down the English words for Nastya's "U" visa narrative. So Alla, Rusty, and Crystal all have heard Nastya brag firsthand about her cleverness in fooling the stupid American authorities with her false rape story.

Scout now understands that everything I told him before about Nastya was 100% correct. He refused to believe me. He did not think any woman capable of such things. He just got a crash course in Borderline Personality Disorder... He is in absolute dismay at how thoroughly and easily he was played by this woman. Her ability to lie convincingly and with appropriate emotional affect is a talent she has honed over many years, and she knows how to use her daughter as a pawn in her damsel-in-distress routine.

Here is a quick summary that gives some flavor of the BPD experience: http://tearsandheali...ty-disorder.htm

I have told Scout I expect she will wear out her current hosts hospitality within a month, if not sooner. The house-guest footprint of her and and her daughter is quite large, in terms of the amount of food they eat. Nastya is 6'1", and according to Scout, now is up to 250 lbs, having gained a bit since being in the USA. I think she was closer to 200 on arrival in USA. And Daria is not a small girl either, about 5'9" and an active teen with a normal healthy appetite. So of course Nastya had to pull her current hosts into the drama by creating a "crisis" with the accusations against Scout, which has beneficial dual effects for her. First, it gets more enthusiastic support from the new, duped hosts, for the damsel-and-daughter-in-distress-running-from-an-abuser. Second, her strategy also cuts off communication, so that the last people she played don't talk to the current people she is leeching off, and it cuts down the risk of getting caught in her own web of lies. Clever! She's been running these games for at least a couple decades.

Scout called the detective who took Nastya's report, to pursue charges of filing a false police report, for the false rape report against me. The detective called him back and left him a voice mail indicating the authorities have zero interest in pursuing charges against false allegants in situations like this, given that charges were not filed. (Of course no interest... they are funded and politicized only for certain classes of victims) Scout then contacted ICE, and they also expressed disinterest, saying it is a USCIS matter. ICE also dismissed him saying he sounded like someone who didn't get paid for helping put the packet together and was trying to derail it.

HOW EASY IT IS FOR A CONNIVING RUSSIAN-MOLDAVIAN WOMAN TO DEFRAUD OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM!! AND NOW SHE BRAGS AND GLOATS ABOUT IT!!
So, will ICE have any interest in this case? Did Scout just not contact the right people and frame the question correctly? Is there anything that can be done to prevent this fraud and abuse? Or is it just a runaway train that has already left the station?

[AvHdB]

WOW ~ If you read this stuff you can almost imagine this in some updated story of Dostoyevsky. But it becomes tragic when you realize there is a 15 year old being used as a pawn.
 

[AvHdB]

For what it is worth twice I have realized the kids are nicer than the mothers.

Just be careful about where THAT thought leads you!

Oh so true ~ but a woman with a child is usually a package.

[mobyone]

a woman with a child is usually a package.

Hmm, AvHdB...

Can you make it clear, please ?

Are you inferring 'the package' brings more negatives than positives - i.e. baggage?

It's just that if you are, I'd like to suggest to the contrary

[AvHdB]

a woman with a child is usually a package.

Hmm, AvHdB...

Can you make it clear, please ?

Are you inferring 'the package' brings more negatives than positives - i.e. baggage?

It's just that if you are, I'd like to suggest to the contrary

Neither positive nor negative. It just is that a woman with a child is not going to leave her offspring behind to live with some "bloke" in the West. They are a package.

I have asked before would you move a child ~ youth aged 13 or so who is becoming an adult to a radically different system where she will be burdened with most likely a new language, a new social network (that established members might look upon her/him with disdain) and her mother trying to build a new relationship. Most of the opinions thought that the child would not have a problem. I tend to doubt that.

NB: It is refreshing to see you back Moby!

[mobyone]

Neither positive nor negative. It just is that a woman with a child is not going to leave her offspring behind to live with some "bloke" in the West. They are a package.

Quite, but this package CAN be a positive.. !

I have asked before would you move a child ~ youth aged 13 or so who is becoming an adult to a radically different system where she will be burdened with most likely a new language, a new social network (that established members might look upon her/him with disdain) and her mother trying to build a new relationship. Most of the opinions thought that the child would not have a problem. I tend to doubt that.

NB: It is refreshing to see you back Moby!

Well, having worn the t-shirt - kid was 4 years older - I'm still saying it was worth it.. and the lad wouldn't go back !

[mobyone]

Sorry, AvHdb - forgot to thank you for the welcome back 

[Philnatseaman]

Neither positive nor negative. It just is that a woman with a child is not going to leave her offspring behind to live with some "bloke" in the West. They are a package.

Quite, but this package CAN be a positive.. !

I have asked before would you move a child ~ youth aged 13 or so who is becoming an adult to a radically different system where she will be burdened with most likely a new language, a new social network (that established members might look upon her/him with disdain) and her mother trying to build a new relationship. Most of the opinions thought that the child would not have a problem. I tend to doubt that.

NB: It is refreshing to see you back Moby!

Well, having worn the t-shirt - kid was 4 years older - I'm still saying it was worth it.. and the lad wouldn't go back !

By all accounts the 15 year old daughter was doing very well in schools here and enjoying making new friends.  In fact, she decided that since schools here are so much easier, she would be able to get straight A's all through high school.
Unfortunately, due to her mother's difficulty in maintaining stable relationships, she has now experienced 3 different high schools this year, or at least 2 in Washington and I presume one in California now, as she's been there a month.
I also understand that the daughter very much wants to run away from the mother, but realizes it would cause more problems overall than it would solve.
The mother is very clever at using the daughter as a pawn in her sick game to gain the sympathy of others.  She is like a "professional victim". Her MO is very clever in the small sense, but very stupid in the overall long term sense, especially in the health and wellness of her daughter.  People are so much more sympathetic to a "single mother" and it makes so much more actionable of a victim story. 

[2tallbill]

Dewd, somehow through sheer dumb luck and without using a single cell in your
brain or using any of the good advice given to you by others you managed to
escape this incident with your wallet, your freedom and your life.

She is a crazy bitch witch girl , you need to avoid cRaZy crazy
bitch witch girls forever !! 




In addition you need to quit psychoanalyzing the situation and move on, before you
miss your next opportunity.

The lessons you should have learned are
1. AVOID crazy bitch witch girl 
2. Once you find a crazy bitch witch girl  run the other way

[Philnatseaman]

2TallBill, you are quite the know-it all. A primary point here was to SHARE this story so that others looking at a situation with similar elements will know how it turns out.  You seem to get some weird satisfaction out of crapping on threads and sharing middle-schoolish "advice".  Since you've already shared everything you know here, can you please restrain yourself from future thread-crapping?

FWIW, I did get some very good advice from people on VJ and also here. The UW/RW who posted on VJ clearly told me I was not dealing with a "cultural difference", and I should not follow through on marrying her unless and until things got sorted out. One of the early posters there suggested I was dealing with a bipolar disordered woman. I followed up on both responses, and the data led me to BPD, which her subsequent behavior, and everything that happened later, confirmed in spades.

I married young and lived a charmed life with regard to my romantic relationships. I did not have crazy biatches in my close personal life to see the patterns enough and be able to recognize the signs.  (My wicked stepmother who I avoided shows all the signs of BPD, now that I know the signs) There are a lot of different flavors of crazy biatches out there.  It helps to know what you're dealing with. 

During the past year, I have pointed 2 female coworkers to the fact that their boss showed signs of BPD/NPD. That boss turned out to be a Narcissist. Another gal from work I dated, at first I thought she was just being a reactive blamer about her frustrations with her boss, and told her so, but as more of the story came out, it became clear her boss showed all the signs of BPD, and was trying to prevent her from "abandoning" him, i.e., moving to a different job with a non-personality-disordered boss.  In each case there were the same signs of being beaten down by a BPD/NPD until they were so distressed they didn't know which way was up!

BPDs and NPDs have a clear pattern of how they conduct their lives and the effects they have on those around them.  If you Google "bpd percent of population" and "npd percent of population" you will find sources that suggest that about 6% of the general population is affected by each.  Toss in another 4-5% for bipolar (BPD is often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder, according to several studies I've seen), allow for a little overlap (people affected by more than one such issue) and it should be clear that somewhere around 10% of the general population is affected, to varying degrees.  Given some of the "train wreck" stories here, I would not be surprised if a study were conducted that concluded that the rate is somewhat higher among those women searching for a partner on international dating sites.

One of the things I hope this story shows to those who read it is that as the "non" involved in a BPD or NPD's life, you will often be ridiculed and attacked when you share your story, and be ready for that. Some people will refuse to believe that another human being is doing the things your BPD/NPD is doing to you.  This disbelief is even more likely if those other people know your BPD/NPD *casually* in a setting where the BPD/NPD is not close enough to them to show their dark side. The BPD/NPD will seem "normal", and some people will conclude you are the crazy one because they cannot believe your BPD/NPD would be capable of such behavior behind closed doors.  Others will ridicule you and give useless "advice".  So be ready for that.

"Scout" has contacted me a couple times over the past year, but I haven't really talked more than a couple minutes with him.  At last check, my ex-fiancee was living somewhere in the greater Los Angeles area and is probably on track to get a "U" visa in another couple years as a "crime victim" for "cooperating" with the "investigation".  And with Obama as president, and his expressed disinterest in immigration issues that involve sending people back to their country, she's probably in like  Flynn on this one.  I do not know much about the daughter's situation. Since she has grown up with a BPD mother, she will be nothing if not adaptable, so I expect she is having some success and doing well in school wherever she is.  Since she is the mother's sympathy and resources meal ticket, as well as her mom's BPD "constant object" I expect mom has kept her close and under tight wraps.

[AvHdB]

Phil,

While some have been less than kind of your situation. I appreciate that you have kept this thread alive. As for Bill's derailing it was more tongue and cheek and some times a bit of humour helps, some times allot.

I think the only wisdom that can come out of your debacle is get to know your future bride before going down this road.

AvHdB

NB: It will be interesting to see how the daughter develops. I suspect she will rebel and how that ends may not be a pretty ending. Especially if in the LA region.

[mobyone]

To the OP... andrewfi's advice was spot on up to here .. move on..

But that doesn't mean you need to answer andrewfi's question re your sexual activities... It's none of his / our business.

Sex without love can be a very unrewarding - if not saddening  experience - it is rather typical of our perennially single 'expert' to seem to suggest it might be just what you need !

You're going to find it REALLY hard to find a new partner if you discuss this past relationship in too much detail.

A tip I've learnt- and still forget -  Breakups and their circumstances are most important to those directly involved and NOT the subject of pre-dating or first date conversations..they are more likely to be a BIG turn off.

Good luck, matey

Rule number one....  do as I say.. not as I do  

[TomT]

The precise nature of Nastya's disorder is irrelevant. She wasn't right for you on a grand scale; the beast is gone; that's all that matters, as far as she is concerned. Personally, I would have felt pretty good about letting such a woman slip through my fingers, not that it would be possible, at her size. The only important issues that need to be examined are why you were so easily duped and brought her here in the first place. Until you get this worked out, history could repeat itself.

[andrewfi]

The precise nature of Nastya's disorder is irrelevant. She wasn't right for you on a grand scale; the beast is gone; that's all that matters, as far as she is concerned. Personally, I would have felt pretty good about letting such a woman slip through my fingers, not that it would be possible, at her size. The only important issues that need to be examined are why you were so easily duped and brought her here in the first place. Until you get this worked out, history could repeat itself.

Tom, if this woman was BPD then it is very, very easy to understand how Phil was duped, as you put it. The woman was obviously functioning in her home environment. The couple did not share native language. These issues only show up over time.

Specifically again to BPD, and, of course we do not know for sure that this was her overriding issue - but my layman's opinion agrees with Phil's, BPD has been suggested to be, at core, inappropriate reactions to stress. This is absolutely key because of all the things that lead to stress changing country is pretty much at the top of the list. Chances are that Phil would not have seen most of the behaviours that caused problems later and would have missed some cues that might have alerted him because of lack of knowledge and lack of language.

In respect of stress, when I learned about BPD I found that managing the effects of BPD meant managing stress in her life and I learned mechanisms for breaking stress patterns, tricks that might take only a few seconds but that worked very well. In the end though one can not easily live in this way and Phil is better off without this woman in his life.

Also, if Phil's experience is congruent with mine, then in more normal circumstances she will have come across, to Phil, as being almost the perfect woman in many ways. I can tell you that not a day goes by that I do not regret letting my former fiancee 'slip through my fingers' even as I know of the terrible stuff that went down around her and between she and I. Again, reading suggests this is not at all uncommon. I can also say that this has never, ever happened to me before in other relationships.

[AJ]

Its courageous for Phil to share and help others, I feel bad for him.

However the lesson here really seems to be:

Expect the exact same behavior  in your country  that you received in hers?

From the OP's  original post on VJ
**
I visited her twice in Ukraine, (Odessa area) in the last 18 months. First time in April 2010 for a week, and I proposed to her at the end of the visit. Second time was in April 2011 for two weeks, and this time the relationship turned intimate, sort of. After a few times early in the visit, she created arguments, and slept in with her daughter for several nights. She was very nervous and emotional for much of the visit. It was only when I told her I had lost interest in her with only a few days to go that she "rediscovered" what a desirable man I am. I decided to bring her to the USA anyway, and see if she could just be a normal calm woman here.
**

She din't.
In fact she acted pretty much exactly like he experienced there.

Whether she is truly Bipolar doesn't factor in nearly as much ,as the fact that she acted
the same when he visited her.
There were no surprises here?
Other than the OP expecting her to be a normal calm woman  once *here* ,
when she was sure to face culture shock and relocation pressures .
She hadn't acted in a way he was comfortable with, when in her own environment.

I'm not trying to beat Phil up , everyone makes mistakes and sharing them helps others.

I just think the clear message is being downplayed or completely over looked.

Its clear to not expect a persons behavior to fundamentally change,
(certainly not for the better) simply because they relocated.

 

andrewfi- what did she hide?

In his second visit after  engagement-
She created drama ,not to be intimate, and slept in her daughters room.
Isn't that the exact same scenario that started when she first arrived in the USA?
In recounting the first ten days in the USA,  the OP states she was behaving exactly as she did , on his last visit to her in Ukraine.
 

[TomT]

I thought that she had bipolar disorder symptoms, Phil's diagnosis was that it was borderline personality disorder. Whatever... the results were the same.

[Rasputin]

AJ, nice summary and analysis. It is wishful thinking at best, delusional at worst, to expect someone to change for the better...

[andrewfi]

AJ, I doubt she hid anything.

The behaviour about which he was concerned in the US may well have had some aspects of similarity to back in Ukraine but those baheviours would have been much more normal in the context of her in her home environment with a stranger. In the US with her future husband? Not the same.

Should those things have been talked about? Probably but what would have come of it?

Learning of the scale and extent of the issues takes time. I know that if I had known almost 8 years ago what I learned about 4 years ago then things would have been very different, but I didn't and the scale and extent were different. Both women were functioning in ther own environment and problems came when they changed their respective worlds. They were both ill before but nobody knew. In both cases I am sure that family would have known there was something a little off, but not more.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but prescience, whilst wonderful is mainly an imaginary trait.

Tom BPD is almost always associated with some other illness and often is misdiagnosed as being the primary illness, this is called comorbidity and is a bit of a bugger. Sadly the outcomes are different.

[AJ]

andrewfi- agree she likely dint try to hide anything,
if she  truly suffers a disorder she would be oblivious to it in many cases.

The OP complained about her acting this way when they were engaged and
he was visiting her in Ukraine.
She relocated on a K1, so as a fiancee in the states, engaged,
he posted and complained that she was acting exactly has she had on his last visit in Ukraine.

I understand your point well, that if men were  dating within a culture they understood
,and knew the language well, had the time to be around and interact with friends and family,
these issues would have a better chance of being known.

Of course i agree, it's common sense , and within my grasp of reasoning even if i might do the opposite

My point was this thread just seemed to be missing the forest, for all the trees.
It really doesn't matter why she acted like she did?
Her behavior was already not compatible with the OP after they were engaged in her country.
She then ,not at all surprisingly, acted exactly the same when they were engaged and in his country.
There just dint seem to be a need to dig deeper than the obvious.

This isn't about looking back differently with 20/20 hindsight,  or there  being a need to be prescient?

This is about staring at incompatible behavior, completely  acknowledging it at the time,
and with absolutely no reason whatsoever to think it might change,.
to then expect it to be different when she relocates.

It isn't cultural, it is incompatible behavior.
It wasn't buried in any circumstances that could cloud it, it was right in his face.
In her country, then exactly the same in his.

 That seems a lesson guys need to hear.

The points about   not being able to see the problems clearly as she might have had BPD which is hard to diagnose, or how they will have more difficulty sorting out behaviors in another language and culture? While true,  and those points have their own merit, that was not really the fundamental  issue here?

He could tell, it was plain as day tio him , and he somehow expected a different result.

unrealistic expectations do a lot of these  relationships  in, both from the men and the women involved.

That just seems  the real lesson here?