Discussion on the "Mail Order Bride Business" Today and in the Past

[Konfushus]

Mod note: Topic split from another topic.

About the Russian MOB business. This is a huge subject that is worthy of its own thread out front, but let me try to condense the main points. It has been dead in Russia proper for years. It hung on in Ukraine, mostly as a service/scam industry.

It used to be the case that any old bloke from Idaho could go out here and marry some model-looking girl and import her to make cozy home. Alright, those relationships seldom lasted, but they lasted long enough for old guys to preen about young wives on forums. Those relationships were all about economics.

Then Russia became more affluent - maybe 7-9 years ago. The women there didnt want to settle [even temporarily] for old guys any more and "escape". Desperation factor removed, the young wife hunters moved onto poorer Ukraine. Hence why the industry is almost solely focused on Ukraine still.

When Ukraine improved a bit they moved to the Stans or remote villages. Always follow the [lack of] money. 

Meanwhile in the real world, normal guys seeking normal women who were not thirty years younger still did OK. Even today, the guys seeking a woman a little younger who don't seek to use economic advantage to create a relationship do OK anywhere in the region. The region is chock full of nice ladies. If you are a socially capable guy who is OK with women at home, you will do just fine anywhere in the region.

If you are a bloke who cant meet and make relationships with women at home, then you now wont do so in the FSU. These women are not a get-out-of-jail-free card for the socially inept. If you spent your life jacking off in your parents basement/attic, then these women are not for you. Despite the MOB marketing. Like women anywhere, they now mostly seek successful, socially capable men. Green Card girls are mostly a thing of the past now. I always cringe when guys arrive here and say "American women suck". The moment they say that, you know they will fail. If you cannot relate to women at home, the FSU isn't a cure.

The MOB "industry" is based on selling very young girls to old foreign men. On that front, yes, it is dead. Those days have gone. What we see now is the remnants of what was once a very large industry. They still use the same marketing but predictably the successes are lower because of what is stated above.

Nowadays the MOB industry is focused on Kiev and Odessa and letter writing/chat scams. Blokes who go to those places will meet a well-oiled machine that will take money from them. None of that is about finding a wife. Its all fantasy and nonsense.

Men with realistic expectations, who fish outside of the scam areas, who are socially capable, and have some smarts, will continue to do OK. As they always did. Men who buy into the MOB nonsense will fail.

Only 5% of men who write ever get on a plane, so the fantasy industry is safe for a while yet.

So yes, the MOB industry as it was is dead [currently relocating to China]. Socially capable men who learn will still find a great wife anywhere there. 98%+ will fail. The MOB industry serves the 98+%.

The men who enter this who end up married number less than 1%.

It used to be the case that any old bloke from Idaho could go out here and marry some model-looking girl and import her to make cozy home.

What year or years would you say were the peak of when this happened?

[2tallbill]

It used to be the case that any old bloke from Idaho could go out here and marry some model-looking girl and import her to make cozy home.

What year or years would you say were the peak of when this happened?

1992 through 1999?

I put a question mark for the finish date because I don't know when
it ended exactly. I was still married at the time and not looking for FSUW

[Jeffery]

Thanks Vinny and especially Manny, for taking the time to explain the goings on here. I appreciate it. It makes a lot more sense to me now.

[TomT]

I put a question mark for the finish date because I don't know when
it ended exactly. I was still married at the time and not looking for FSUW

It was circa 2005 and, coincidentally, occurred simultaneously with the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act.

[Justmd]

To quote Manny "The men who enter this who end up married number less than 1%."

Then count me into the 1%...My wife today (after we spent the morning doing yard work together)

[Manny]

It used to be the case that any old bloke from Idaho could go out here and marry some model-looking girl and import her to make cozy home.

What year or years would you say were the peak of when this happened?

Well, I remember it was in full swing in the late 90's, prior to that I couldn't say. You used to see some cringeworthy couples in airports; now you dont. Early 2000's it started to fade away and as Tom said, IMBRA put the nail in the coffin in 2005. IMBRA made many American owned sites sell up and fuelled the scam industry further.

[Konfushus]

Well, I'd say more accurately the peak of when any old dude could marry a model happened circa... NEVER... give or take a few years.

That's always been extremely rare.

The MOB business has always been driven by 'scam'. Actual marriages generated by MOB sites and tours have alway been very few compared to the number of men using the sites, maybe 1-2%.

Over the years the total of Russian + Ukrainian / American K visas have ranged from around 1500 to 2500 per year with a fraction of those being MOB drive and a fraction of the MOB driven marriages being extreme mismatches. No doubt there have been some oddball couples . There will always be some oddball couples and you can count on MOB sites to display them proudly!

In reality a lot of MOB shops in Russia have closed their doors or changed their strategies because of many factors: crackdowns on scams, women that really want to meet foreigners using non MOB  sites, the rising cost of chat girls and movement into more profitable and ethical business such as sex chat cams. These factors have yet to fully hit Ukraine yet.

[Halo]

Well, I'd say more accurately the peak of when any old dude could marry a model happened circa... NEVER... give or take a few years.

"Old" is a relative term.  There were plenty of cases of WM in their early to mid forties marrying teens/women up to their mid twenties. 

[Konfushus]

No doubt there have been some large age gap couples . There will always be some large age gap couples and you can count on MOB sites to display them proudly!

'Plenty' is also a relative term. What are you talking about, a few hundred? The key words here are any old dude marrying a model type chick.

That never happened in any significant numbers. In relation to the number of men using MOB sites, the number of resulting marriages has always been insignificant. In relation to the populations of the US, Russia and Ukraine the number of MOB marriages has always been insignificant.

The vast majority of guys using MOB sites 20 years ago 10 years ago 5 years ago and now did not and do not end up getting married to a Russian / Ukrainian woman.

The day that any old American dude could wander into Russia flashing his passport and land the model wife of his choosing happened... never.

The day that a few old and weird American dudes can find a wife in Russia or Ukraine that many would say are 'out of their league' can happen today just as it could happen years ago. It can happen in America too. It just doesn't happen very often. Never did.

[Halo]

The day that any old American dude could wander into Russia flashing his passport and land the model wife of his choosing happened... never.

I believe it happened quite often during the economic crisis in the early to mid 1990's. 

Anecdotally, I remember watching a documentary at that time that followed a dozen men in their quest for brides.  Other than the obvious closet case (never stated, it was just obvious to me) who married a Ukrainian widow close to his age, and chose her based on her domestic skills, all the marriages were age and looks disparate.  That was pretty common in documentaries of that type.  I remember seeing another one with a misogynist who said FSUW were a "dream", because when he tired of one, he could just "ship her back" and "order" another.  Could the filmmakers have chosen such couples purposefully?  Sure.  But there were enough of these couplings that they were not difficult to find.

[Konfushus]

And what is 'quite often' to you?

Let's say out of 60 million women, what would be a significant number of model looking women marrying older out of their league men to claim that it happened 'often' and that 'any old dude' could find model wife?

100? 1000? 0.001% of women?

You saw a documentary that followed 12 couples. Wow, that is statistically significant. Big surprise that they showed age and looks 'disparate' couples. 

Of course these couples aren't difficult to find, these are exactly the couples that the big players in the MOB business want 'documentaries' to show. Because something can be found doesn't make it common.

[Halo]

You can't disprove the statement any more than you expect others to prove it.  Further, you know very well, by the fact that I stated the documentaries were anectodal, that I wasn't relying on them as some sort of proof.

Even if we poll those on the forum, the number of marriages that are with spouses within five years of each other in age, or even ten years of each other, is lower than those with larger age gaps.  That is not in accordance with the majority of marriages in the West.

[Konfushus]

Halo, if any old American were marrying model Russian women in the late 90s in significant numbers there would be evidence.

For one, it would be reflected in the number of K visas. The number of K visas in the late 90s are roughly the same as now. The highest years, in the mid 2000s, reveal around 2000 visas issues, a fraction of which represent MOB marriages and a fraction of those are 'age and appearance 'disparate.

In relation to the number of MOB site users and in relation to the populations of the US and FSU countries there have never been a significant number of K visas to support the claim that 'any old dude' could pick and choose a model Russian wife.

The statement was made that 'any old dude' could marry a 'model' Russian woman in the 90s or early 2000s. Yes, the burden of proof falls on those who made and agree with the statement.

Even if we poll those on the forum, the number of marriages that are with spouses within five years of each other in age, or even ten years of each other, is lower than those with larger age gaps

Back it up with evidence and demonstrate that the numbers polled are statically significant and representative of MOB marriages.

I would assume that you read the cross cultural survey posted on the other forum. It's the only reasonably reliable survey of its kind that I have seen. The numbers roughly reflect what I have learned and what I know comes directly from people who reviewed K visas from the late 90s until the late 2000s. And that is that age gaps exceeding 20 years are rare in these marriages and that the average age gap is less than 10 years.

The MOB industry in the late 90s and 2000s made most of its money making 'any old dude' think that he could land a hot model wife. The rare cases of it actually happening were prominently displayed because they were rare. The normal case in the MOB business was for a guy to toss away his money dreaming over some hot photos and chatting with a paid 'interpreter', often a dude. Exactly as it is today.

[Halo]

The highest years, in the mid 2000s, reveal around 2000 visas issues, a fraction of which represent MOB marriages and a fraction of those are 'age and appearance 'disparate.

How do you know whether or not those marriages are, or are not, "age and appearance" disparate, or whether they are MOB related?  AFAIK, the USCIS does not keep such statistics. 

Back it up with evidence and demonstrate that the numbers polled are statically significant and representative of MOB marriages.

There are at least two similar polls on this forum, for more recent marriages, and the another forum survey was conducted in 2008.

If one reads the posts at both forums, the age gaps are generally far higher than indicated in the another forum survey.  It is evident in the disclosures of formerly married, and even the majority of currently married posters.

Finally, no one here claimed that the majority of marriages were between "some old bloke in Idaho" and a young "model looking" girl/woman (stated for exaggeration of the state of affairs, I am certain).  The statement was that it was easier at that time for older men to go to Russia, in particular, and marry someone age/looks disparate.  Manny can correct me, but I believe the gist of his statement was really that marriage to what some would define as "losers" was more common then than now.  One can still observe such disparate marriages in Ukraine, and they are evidenced on the forums, because in Ukraine, the average monthly wage before Euromaidan was US$500, and unemployment was staggeringly high.

[Konfushus]

How do you know whether or not those marriages are, or are not, "age and appearance" disparate, or whether they are MOB related.  AFAIK, the USCIS does not keep such statistics.

I know because knowing the people who reviewed these applications I am privy to unpublished information. AFAYK, you are wrong.

I do that know that criteria that would flag an application for review as being unusual and questionable included age gaps over 20 years and subjectively, appearance discrepancies.

A large number of Russian K visas are issued to couples that met outside of the MOB industry, as they are for other European countries.

Regardless, even if all K visas were MOB related, there were never enough K visas issued in a year to claim that a significant portion of MOB clients 'succeeded' or that a significant number of Russian or Ukrainian women would marry 'any American man'.

If one reads the posts at both forums, the age gaps are generally far higher than indicated in the another forum survey.

And what is more accurate? A poll of 50 forum members, your subjective interpretation of what you read on these forums, or a methodical survey? Or what was reported to me by the people who actually review K applications?

Also you are pointing to recent polls and marriages. If large age gap marriages were once common, but have died out, your 'current' information would reflect that, no?

The statement was that it was easier for old men at that time to go to Russia, in particular, and marry someone age/looks disparate.

No. The statement was

It used to be the case that any old bloke from Idaho could go out here and marry some model-looking girl and import her to make cozy home.

and it was followed by some statements I can agree with and some exaggerated and innacurate statements reiterating this forum owner's general disdain for his target audience.

Now, rather than continue your tiresome devil's advocate rumblings, why don't you focus on something you actually have some knowledge about, like Ukraine in the middle ages.

You share the forum owner's disdain for MOB men and jump at any chance to display your disgust, even it if means playing mother to a bunch of social retards (oh, I mean studs that could get any American woman, but just 'happened' to use MOB sites to find a young wife).

I get all that, if it was a one time shot. It's a bit pathetic on a daily basis. Don't you have better things to do with your time than wallow in a cesspool of men that disgust you?

[Halo]

How do you know whether or not those marriages are, or are not, "age and appearance" disparate, or whether they are MOB related.  AFAIK, the USCIS does not keep such statistics.

I know because knowing the people who reviewed these applications I am privy to unpublished information. AFAYK, you are wrong.

I do that know that criteria that would flag an application for review as being unusual and questionable included age gaps over 20 years and subjectively, appearance discrepancies.

When was the last time you heard of an application being rejected?  I believe Turbo's was rejected, but that could have been because his previous K-1, which he wrote about, was a nightmare.  But another poster, who at over 40, contacted an underage girl, had his application approved handily.  In the end, I doubt most applications are rejected on this basis.

A large number of Russian K visas are issued to couples that met outside of the MOB industry, as they are for other European countries.

How do you know this?

Also you are pointing to recent polls and marriages. If large age gap marriages were once common, but have died out, your 'current' information would reflect that, no?

I didn't state that large age gap marriages were common and died out.  I contend that large age gap marriages are still common.

Now, rather than continue your tiresome devil's advocate rumblings, why don't you focus on something you actually have some knowledge about, like Ukraine in the middle ages.

You share the forum owner's disdain for MOB men and jump at any chance to display your disgust, even it if means playing mother to a bunch of social retards (oh, I mean studs that could get any American woman, but just 'happened' to use MOB sites to find a young wife).

No, I share his disdain for men who exploit women.  There are many men here, including men in age disparate relationships, who I like and admire.  They know who they are.

Thanks for the amateur psychological assessment and "advice", but I suggest you keep your day job.  Personal attacks.  The last refuge of those with nothing cogent to argue.  Nevertheless, the message is loud and clear.  So, you won't read my posts anymore.

[Manny]

You share the forum owner's disdain for MOB men and jump at any chance to display your disgust, even it if means playing mother to a bunch of social retards (oh, I mean studs that could get any American woman, but just 'happened' to use MOB sites to find a young wife).

No, I share his disdain for men who exploit women.  There are many men here, including men in age disparate relationships, who I like and admire.  They know who they are.

Indeed, I have no disdain for "MOB men". Or else having this site and writing a well received book on the subject would be a dumb idea.

I have disdain for idiots, those who seek to use economic exploitation, declarations of seriousness and dishonest desire for marriage to inveigle women. The afore mentioned do not represent all "MOB men" as you label them.

Better to ask next time if you are unsure about something.

[Anteros]

The MOB industry in the late 90s and 2000s made most of its money making 'any old dude' think that he could land a hot model wife. The rare cases of it actually happening were prominently displayed because they were rare. The normal case in the MOB business was for a guy to toss away his money dreaming over some hot photos and chatting with a paid 'interpreter', often a dude. Exactly as it is today.

I've always felt that the number of genuine women (or men) were about the same back in the letter writing days (letters written by hand and sent by snail mail) as they are today, with perhaps a spike when Russia's economy was at it's worst.  Certainly there are few agencies remaining in Russia today, but give it a few years and after Russia's economy tanks due to economic sanctions from the West, due to Putin's refusal to stop his soft invasion of E. Ukraine, the numbers will likely go back up.   

There's still an agency, which looks legitimate, in Samara (Togliatti) which I commented on once and I believe Manny said he or his wife once did business with them, or perhaps had part ownership.

There are now quite a few women in Russia, listed on Anastasia Date, which certainly had declined to almost zero, but for whatever reason the number has jumped up.

We were told by Andrew that the MOB industry was dead, etc, but this simply never happened, it simply changed.  No doubt the cities of Odessa and Kiev are full of scammers and pro-daters, but wasn't it true in the past, even when letters were written by hand, that the cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg and other Russian cities, were full of scammers?  So they relocated, the business changed from a lot of small Mom and Pop agencies, but the MOB business is far from dead, it just relocated and actually got much larger; the technology improved.

[Konfushus]

I didn't state that visas were refused, I stated that they were flagged and reviewed as being unusual.

How do I know that many K visas are not MOB related? From the same people that reviewed these applications for many years.

Just think for a minute. Look at visa statistics for other European countries.
K-1 Visas for UK + Germany + Spain + France + Italy in 2013 = 1500 visas, population 320 m
4.7 Visas per Million
K-1 Visas for Russia = 630 visas, population 144 m
4.4 Visas per Million

Now, Ukraine is higher / Million. UK is higher than other European countries (and Russia).

We can assume that none of the K visas for residents of UK, Germany, France, etc. were not MOB related, correct?

We can thus assume that every country has some number of non MOB related K visas, correct?

If we assumed the same non MOB per capita visa rate throughout Europe, 0 Russian K visas would be MOB related in 2013. If we assumed a lower average rate such as 2.5 / million that is seen in countries like Germany, about half of Russian K visas would be attributed to the MOB. I believe the number is somewhere in between.

Even if we attribute half of K visas to MOB marriages in a peak year the MOB is going to account for maybe 10 visas per million population and maybe 1000 marriages per year on those years. Insignificant results for a an industry that boast so many clients.

Like I said, the MOB industry was never about marriages. It was about fantasies 10 years ago as it is today.

[Konfushus]

Indeed, I have no disdain for "MOB men". Or else having this site and writing a well received book on the subject would be a dumb idea.

You general disdain is the impression I get from a lot of your posts.

Comments like this

The MOB "industry" is based on selling very young girls to old foreign men. On that front, yes, it is dead. Those days have gone.

to me indicate disdain of the industry and those that use it.

And... those days haven't gone. The lure is the same. Old men 'buying' young girls was never what drove the industry. It's the illusion that did and still does and the illusion does not target only 'old men'.

If having a site and writing a book makes you money and you enjoy it, it's a good idea, regardless of how you feel about your target audience.

[Manny]

You would agree with it if I rephrased it to this?

The MOB "industry" is based on the illusion of selling very young girls to old foreign men.

I agree with that as well. It likely would have been better phrased that way.

As for my "general disdain", we'll agree to differ.

Some of your comments are rather interesting. On numbers, when I last looked at the numbers for the FSU of K visas to the US, they ran at about 4k a year. There is a topic here someplace with links and graphs.

[WestCoast]

I didn't state that visas were refused, I stated that they were flagged and reviewed as being unusual.

How do I know that many K visas are not MOB related? From the same people that reviewed these applications for many years.

Just think for a minute. Look at visa statistics for other European countries.
K-1 Visas for UK + Germany + Spain + France + Italy in 2013 = 1500 visas, population 320 m
4.7 Visas per Million
K-1 Visas for Russia = 630 visas, population 144 m
4.4 Visas per Million

Now, Ukraine is higher / Million. UK is higher than other European countries (and Russia).

We can assume that none of the K visas for residents of UK, Germany, France, etc. were not MOB related, correct?

We can thus assume that everyone country has some number of non MOB related K visas, correct?

If we assumed the same non MOB per capita visa rate throughout Europe, 0 Russian K visas would be MOB related in 2013. If we assumed a lower average rate such as 2.5 / million that is seen in countries like Germany, about half of Russian K visas would be attributed to the MOB. I believe the number is somewhere in between.

Even if we attribute half of K visas to MOB marriages in a peak year the MOB is going to account for maybe 10 visas per million population and maybe 1000 marriages per year on those years. Insignificant results for a an industry that boast so many clients.

Like I said, the MOB industry was never about marriages. It was about fantasies 10 years ago as it is today.

Konfushus you provide no links for your sources and your logic is flawed. All the EU countries you mentioned are visited regularly by Americans for business and pleasure. Citizens of those EU countries regularly come to the US. This is not true for Russians.

Americans don't visit Russia in large numbers. Russians don't come to the US in large numbers. Yet you say visa numbers are almost the same for EU and Russia. Where do the Russians and Americans meet?

As for there being no MOB between the US and EU, that's also not true. Internet romance is worldwide. There are any number of sites that can connect Americans to citizens of the EU. Flawed logic and no sources. No better than Andrew's arguments. 

[Konfushus]

You would agree with it if I rephrased it to this?
The MOB "industry" is based on the illusion of selling very young girls to old foreign men.

That's a part of it for sure. The target is any men though and I'd say the focus is on 'hot' girls not just very young.

As an illusion industry I think the MOB is poised for growth as MOB business owners realize that their potential client base extends well beyond the sterotypical old men and social rejects.

Some of your comments are rather interesting. On numbers, when I last looked at the numbers for the FSU of K visas to the US, they ran at about 4k a year. There is a topic here someplace with links and graphs.

Yes, 4 K total K visa for FSU residents during a peak year sounds about right. During the same year K visas for UK residents exceeded 1 K.  Something to think about.

How many exact visas could be attributed to MOB meetings would be interesting.

With the US Freedom of Information act, I wonder if it would be possible to obtain that information. Applicants do check if they used a MOB site and the information is entered into a database. Whether a government worker could be called on to get off their ass and query and release the data though... your guess is as good a mine. 

[Konfushus]

West Coast, the statistics can be found on travel.state.gov.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy/statistics/non-immigrant-visas.html

These are easy numbers to find.

There are over 3 Million ethnic Russians in America

There were 229,040 B-1,2 visas issued to Russians in 2013
50,000 were issued in 2003

Those are business and tourist visas alone. Taking into account Student and other non immigrant visas you can see that from 100,00 to 300,000 Russians are in the US temporarily, depending on the year.

As for there being no MOB between the US and EU. I am using MOB to refer to sites categorized as IMBs, not dating sites. I'm well aware that international relationships through dating sites and social media are on the rise. That is not the 'Mail Order Bride' industry being discussed here.

[WestCoast]

West Coast, the statistics can be found on travel.state.gov.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy/statistics/non-immigrant-visas.html

These are easy numbers to find.

There are over 3 Million ethnic Russians in America

How many Americans of British, Spanish, German French or Italian ancestry? Far, far more with EU ancestry than Russian.

There were 229,040 B-1,2 visas issued to Russians in 2013
50,000 were issued in 2003

Those are business and tourist visas alone. Taking into account Student and other non immigrant visas you can see that from 100,00 to 300,000 Russians are in the US temporarily, depending on the year.

How Eu citizens in the US temporarily? No matter how you look at it, the numbers for the EU are always far higher yet the visas issued are similar in number when looking at it on a per capita basis. You simply don't have the necessary data to form any conclusions. 

As for there being no MOB between the US and EU. I am using MOB to refer to sites categorized as IMBs, not dating sites. I'm well aware that international relationships through dating sites and social media are on the rise. That is not the 'Mail Order Bride' industry being discussed here.

Really what's the difference between meeting on Match.com or EM or AFA? It's still meeting online. The foreign spouse still has to get a visa.