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Information & Chat => Former Soviet Union History => Topic started by: Czenny on April 29, 2016, 12:06:35 AM

Title: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Czenny on April 29, 2016, 12:06:35 AM
I have a friend in Yalta, Irina, who posted a photo yesterday:

(http://gic1.mycdn.me/image?t=35&bid=834386806585&id=834386806585&plc=WEB&tkn=*ls7decVH9kaBfFibR-jgUA12xxM)

Leningrad Ballet School in evacuation.
Fortitude of russian (in those time soviet women) is incredible.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Maxx on April 29, 2016, 03:34:22 AM
I remember when I was doing all my travels to Saratov I had purchased a rather thick book in an airport lounge called "Stalingrad." In the book it mentioned that the Nazis feared this one Soviet women soldier the most. She led a platoon of other women soldiers that were known for their fierceness. Then I remembered a fact I read about women in combat. They take less prisoners than men. Then I tied this with poem I knew, Rudyard Kipling's  "The female of the species." I'll quote it for you Czenny.

Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
                           The Female of the Species

    WHEN the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
    He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
    But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
    For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
    He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can.
    But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail.
    For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
    They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
    'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
    For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    Man's timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
    For the Woman that God gave him isn't his to give away;
    But when hunter meets with husbands, each confirms the other's tale—
    The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    Man, a bear in most relations—worm and savage otherwise,—
    Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise.
    Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
    To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

    Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
    To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
    Mirth obscene diverts his anger—Doubt and Pity oft perplex
    Him in dealing with an issue—to the scandal of The Sex!

    But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
    Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same;
    And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
    The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

    She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
    May not deal in doubt or pity—must not swerve for fact or jest.
    These be purely male diversions—not in these her honour dwells—
    She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

    She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
    As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate.
    And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
    Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

    She is wedded to convictions—in default of grosser ties;
    Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies!—
    He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
    Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

    Unprovoked and awful charges—even so the she-bear fights,
    Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons—even so the cobra bites,
    Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw
    And the victim writhes in anguish—like the Jesuit with the squaw!

    So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
    With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
    Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
    To some God of Abstract Justice—which no woman understands.

    And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
    Must command but may not govern—shall enthral but not enslave him.
    And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
    That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Czenny on April 29, 2016, 07:42:56 AM
Speaking of Kipling, I like this one:


“If…” by R. Kipling (1895)

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:

If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!






Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Czenny on April 29, 2016, 07:50:16 AM
I'm afraid
Quote
fierceness
of women as soldiers has nothing to do with photo above.
Tender women of Balet, who usually are on special diet show themselves in the photo as strong and devoted to their art, even in case of War.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Ste on April 29, 2016, 09:28:34 AM
I wonder what Russian people think of this from UK perspective, for us the Second World War started in 1939 when Britain stood alone against the might of the Nazi War machine and took a hell of a bloody nose at first.

Could be argued that the Nazi Germany's first defeat was the Battle of Britain, 1940, when the RAF beat back the Luftwaffe, but every Russian person I spoke to about this doesn't seem aware.

I was asked in school in Chel, and I chose to discuss Douglas Bader, dunno why actually, just it seemed to them the war was 1942-1945...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader)

During one visit to Munich, Germany, as a guest of Adolf Galland, he walked into a room full of ex-Luftwaffe pilots and said, "My God, I had no idea we left so many of you *snip*s alive".

Haha!
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Steamer on April 29, 2016, 10:37:04 AM
To many Americans WW2 is thought of as a war that was long ago and far away. When traveling around Moscow and seeing the many memorials, parks and speaking with people I got the sense that they view WW2 as being right HERE and it was last week.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Maxx on April 29, 2016, 12:04:53 PM
I'm afraid
Quote
fierceness
of women as soldiers has nothing to do with photo above.
Tender women of Balet, who usually are on special diet show themselves in the photo as strong and devoted to their art, even in case of War.

I meant Soviet women's qualities of strength and courage under difficult conditions. I have been gone all day exploring East of Tbilisi.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Czenny on April 29, 2016, 08:57:07 PM
When traveling around Moscow and seeing the many memorials, parks and speaking with people I got the sense that they view WW2 as being right HERE and it was last week.

Yes. In Russia and Ukraine this war has been remembered again and again. We usually distinguish WW2 and Great Patriotic War in the sense that GRW was a part of WW2 .
It is just so.
It could be written pages and pages why it was and is so important to speak of that event for russians, but I think the best way to deal with peculiarities of another country is to respect them. It is in collective unconscious of former soviet people.

Especially when somebody meets a woman from FSU this question 100% will appear.  One should be wise and not touch traumatic fields of memory. One never knows what kind of reaction may be.

People have different points of views on various facts --it is axiom.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Czenny on April 29, 2016, 08:58:03 PM
I'm afraid
Quote
fierceness
of women as soldiers has nothing to do with photo above.
Tender women of Balet, who usually are on special diet show themselves in the photo as strong and devoted to their art, even in case of War.

I meant Soviet women's qualities of strength and courage under difficult conditions. I have been gone all day exploring East of Tbilisi.

OK.  :)
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: msmoby on April 29, 2016, 09:51:29 PM
I wonder what Russian people think of this from UK perspective, for us the Second World War started in 1939 when Britain stood alone against the might of the Nazi War machine and took a hell of a bloody nose at first.

Could be argued that the Nazi Germany's first defeat was the Battle of Britain, 1940, when the RAF beat back the Luftwaffe, but every Russian person I spoke to about this doesn't seem aware.

I think you might find the Serbs will point out that they also contributed to the near month delay to Barbarosa and it's failure to get to Moscow - before the autumn rains
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on April 29, 2016, 11:49:45 PM
To many Americans WW2 is thought of as a war that was long ago and far away. When traveling around Moscow and seeing the many memorials, parks and speaking with people I got the sense that they view WW2 as being right HERE and it was last week.

Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: AvHdB on April 30, 2016, 01:46:29 AM
April is the cruelest month
Breeding . . .

I would look to the writing of J. Conrad, born in Ukraine for insight into the period before and after the Second World War. And there is K. Vonnegut who also in his way portrayed war and its victims.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Steamer on April 30, 2016, 07:56:02 AM
Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:

No doubt that politicians try to spin things to their favor but the average Ivan thinks more in terms of family lost and the destruction caused in the FSU.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Annushka on April 30, 2016, 08:35:35 AM
Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:

No doubt that politicians try to spin things to their favor but the average Ivan thinks more in terms of family lost and the destruction caused in the FSU.

Объясняю на пальцах: "Нет в России семьи такой, где б не памятен был свой герой..."


Full version.

Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on April 30, 2016, 08:45:36 AM
Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:

No doubt that politicians try to spin things to their favor but the average Ivan thinks more in terms of family lost and the destruction caused in the FSU.

I respect the average Ivan and what they sacrificed very much.  Russia took a turn in the wrong direction.  Had Medvedev or another reformer been President I believe they would have made strides to improve their economy and manufacturing base, so that the average Ivan and his progeny would have a better future.  All the previous gains, for the most part, have been lost.  Russia's economy, for the most part still solely relies on oil and natural gas export.

Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Manny on April 30, 2016, 11:57:13 AM
Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:

No doubt that politicians try to spin things to their favor but the average Ivan thinks more in terms of family lost and the destruction caused in the FSU.

Yes but that doesn't fit in with Ants foaming at the mouth Russophobia.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Manny on April 30, 2016, 12:00:53 PM
Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:

No doubt that politicians try to spin things to their favor but the average Ivan thinks more in terms of family lost and the destruction caused in the FSU.

I respect the average Ivan and what they sacrificed very much.  Russia took a turn in the wrong direction.  Had Medvedev or another reformer been President I believe they would have made strides to improve their economy and manufacturing base, so that the average Ivan and his progeny would have a better future.  All the previous gains, for the most part, have been lost.  Russia's economy, for the most part still solely relies on oil and natural gas export.

You might want to take a look at the gains made in agriculture in recent years (and especially since sanctions). Or arms exports. Or the space tech that the US buys. Or the international brands like Scania that manufacture in Russia. But again, none of those things fit in with your vehement anti-Russian sentiment either. :prophead:
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: B.B. on April 30, 2016, 12:01:58 PM
I wonder what Russian people think of this from UK perspective, for us the Second World War started in 1939 when Britain stood alone against the might of the Nazi War machine and took a hell of a bloody nose at first.

They tend to gloss over that bit where they had the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact thingy.  It's a bit inconvenient, given how things turned out.   :whist11: 

Generally, I only mention it if one of my Russian friends slags off America or, when relevant, Ukraine relative to the war -- "Oh, I'm sorry...and what were you lot doing during that first bit while America was busy being the 'Arsenal of Democracy'?" Also useful, upon occasion, against uppity Swedes, Sweden having been the "Armorer of the Reich", etc.

Could be argued that the Nazi Germany's first defeat was the Battle of Britain, 1940, when the RAF beat back the Luftwaffe, but every Russian person I spoke to about this doesn't seem aware.

If you ask a Russian when WWII began, they will say "June 22, 1941", just as Americans often thing "December 7, 1941", although we are more generally aware of the Sep 1, 1939 date, because we're not invested in having "Waldheimer's Disease (http://www.blacktomflint.ca/post/Plague-of-the-Week-5-Waldheimere28099s-Disease-Spreads-to-Japan.aspx)" where you conveniently forget what you did during "ze War".

I was asked in school in Chel, and I chose to discuss Douglas Bader, dunno why actually, just it seemed to them the war was 1942-1945...

My father was a WWII vet* which is always nice to trot out when appropriate.  Russians tend to be a bit "possessive" about the war, i.e. Russia won it with just a teensy bit of help from other countries, that wasn't really necessary, so it's a bit more useful to talk about it in terms of the Pacific War, which Russians typically know very little about.  They like the bit where our code breakers, led by Cmdr. Joseph Roquefort** cracked the Japanese naval codes, thus allowing the Nimitz to lay a trap for the Japanese Imperial Navy at Midway.

They also especially dig the bit about how the 25 Marine pilots who rose to defend Midway Island, outnumbered more than 4 to 1 by an enemy flying superior aircraft, fought back so ferociously that a second attack was required to destroy the airfield.  This forced the Japs to change out the torpedoes they had just loaded on to their planes for bombs again, and allowed Navy fliers to catch them mid-switch, with fuel lines and ordnance laid out on their decks--indeed, had the USN not found them when they did, Enterprise and Hornet might well have joined Yorktown at the bottom of the sea.  So while our first two attack waves of torpedo bombers were being shredded by Japanese zeroes, our slow, lumbering dive bombers were able to make it through at higher altitude and, well, as John Lee Hooker sang, "Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom!"

On one ocassion, I was having dinner with an extended Russian family.  Only one other person there spoke English, but one of the men spoke very basic German.  I had two semesters at University, so we communicated, haltingly, in German for a bit.  He lamented that we didn't speak German better, so I quipped that I was "glad we didn't".  It took a beat or two for him to get it and then he roared with laughed, then translated the joke for everyone else at the table.  Several rounds of drinking were, at that point, mandatory.  :chuckle:

B/B

*Dad got one past the goalie when he was in his 40s, et voila! Here I am.  He once referred to me, after I had done something particularly useful, like saved his life, as "the best mistake I ever made". :chuckle:

**You guys had Alan Turing, we had Joseph Roquefort.  They were both odd ducks, in different ways, but indispensable in terms of cryptology.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Orchid on April 30, 2016, 12:36:39 PM
I have a friend in Yalta, Irina, who posted a photo yesterday:

(http://gic1.mycdn.me/image?t=35&bid=834386806585&id=834386806585&plc=WEB&tkn=*ls7decVH9kaBfFibR-jgUA12xxM)

Leningrad Ballet School in evacuation.
Fortitude of russian (in those time soviet women) is incredible.

This is an extraordinary picture!!!!
It speaks volumes about Russian culture, spirit, stamina, and an importance of Russian women in a survival situation.
Thank you,  Czenny and Irina!!
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Gipsy on April 30, 2016, 02:01:49 PM
Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:

No doubt that politicians try to spin things to their favor but the average Ivan thinks more in terms of family lost and the destruction caused in the FSU.

I respect the average Ivan and what they sacrificed very much.  Russia took a turn in the wrong direction.  Had Medvedev or another reformer been President I believe they would have made strides to improve their economy and manufacturing base, so that the average Ivan and his progeny would have a better future.  All the previous gains, for the most part, have been lost.  Russia's economy, for the most part still solely relies on oil and natural gas export.

You might want to take a look at the gains made in agriculture in recent years (and especially since sanctions). Or arms exports. Or the space tech that the US buys. Or the international brands like Scania that manufacture in Russia. But again, none of those things fit in with your vehement anti-Russian sentiment either. :prophead:

I would suggest that there are several persons on here, who would be extremely surprised to the extent of todays Russian agricultural/manufacturing/production, and just how many international brands/OEM's/1st tier/2nd tier/3rd tier there are in Russia, even more so as to the amount of product which is now exported into other countries inc the US..
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on April 30, 2016, 06:42:12 PM
Because Putin and other Russian elites use war remembrance as a way to detract from the poor economy and the corruption and greed of the ruling class.   :coffeeread:

No doubt that politicians try to spin things to their favor but the average Ivan thinks more in terms of family lost and the destruction caused in the FSU.

Yes but that doesn't fit in with Ants foaming at the mouth Russophobia.

There is no "foaming at the mouth Russophobia".  That's just you doing your best to mischaracterize what I wrote.

Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: AvHdB on April 30, 2016, 07:18:57 PM
In some respects unfortunately RUA is divided between those who view Putin as the best thing since apple pie and those who find him the devil's agent on earth.

But in reality he his neither, his loyalty is to his country and what he sees as best for the future of Russia. Russia has always been the strongest when it has a strong Czar or Czarina, a forceful head of the Supreme Soviet or President with a purpose at the helm. Certainly those American's who are interested in foreign affairs (of all sorts) may differ in opinion. But if you ask most Americans where St. Petersburg is they will say along the Gulf Coast, Odessa is some lackluster town in Texas and Moscow somewhere up north, close to Lake Wobegon, wherever ever that is.

From my observations they same holds true for the majority of Russians, they want to go on there vacations and do not care two rats asses about the foreign etiquette of France, Germany or the United States.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on May 01, 2016, 09:46:59 AM
In some respects unfortunately RUA is divided between those who view Putin as the best thing since apple pie and those who find him the devil's agent on earth.

Putin is the proverbial little boy who cried wolf.  Always blaming the USA and the EU for his own shortcomings as a leader.  Continuing to attempt to blame the lower living standards and failing Russian federal budget on some sort of Western conspiracy. 
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Gipsy on May 01, 2016, 10:29:18 AM
In some respects unfortunately RUA is divided between those who view Putin as the best thing since apple pie and those who find him the devil's agent on earth.

Putin is the proverbial little boy who cried wolf.  Always blaming the USA and the EU for his own shortcomings as a leader.  Continuing to attempt to blame the lower living standards and failing Russian federal budget on some sort of Western conspiracy.

Utter bollox Ant, you sure know nothing about your country's economics.

Look at the facts, there are far more people in the US enjoying a very low, much lower than Russian living standards.

Russia's federal budget is not failing, falling yes, but Russia has little to no external debt, unlike the US who has 19+ trillions debt.

And for sure, much of the current sanctions are in place by the EU due only to US pressures/threats.

Its not Russia who is the antagonist, its you  :censored: ers..

 
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on May 01, 2016, 09:56:07 PM
In some respects unfortunately RUA is divided between those who view Putin as the best thing since apple pie and those who find him the devil's agent on earth.

Putin is the proverbial little boy who cried wolf.  Always blaming the USA and the EU for his own shortcomings as a leader.  Continuing to attempt to blame the lower living standards and failing Russian federal budget on some sort of Western conspiracy.

Utter bollox Ant, you sure know nothing about your country's economics.

Look at the facts, there are far more people in the US enjoying a very low, much lower than Russian living standards.

Russia's federal budget is not failing, falling yes, but Russia has little to no external debt, unlike the US who has 19+ trillions debt.

And for sure, much of the current sanctions are in place by the EU due only to US pressures/threats.

Its not Russia who is the antagonist, its you  :censored: ers..

The antagonist is Putin and Russia who violated International law by invading and seizing Crimea and then went on to make the situation worse by invading and seizing land in Donetsk and Lugansk. 

Putin is a very greedy little man and no doubt he will continue to start trouble with the west by starting more wars and attempting to seize more land which does not belong to him.

If WWIII happens it will be because of Russian aggression and attempts to steal more land from others.  Once the USA and NATO decimate Russia they will be liable for war crimes and war damage against the people of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Markje on May 02, 2016, 01:15:28 AM
The antagonist is Putin and Russia who violated International law by invading and seizing Crimea and then went on to make the situation worse by invading and seizing land in Donetsk and Lugansk. 
Nobody invaded or seized Crimea.

The Crimean parliament decided themselves to break away from Ukraine after the maidan-movement turned violent and became a fully independent autonomous region.

6 days later, a referendum was held to join Russia, or to remain independent for the time being. We all know how that vote turned out.

I don't understand how you can keep on believing propaganda, whilst you have someone with family living in Crimea right here on the board.

Mark.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Gipsy on May 02, 2016, 03:55:20 AM
In some respects unfortunately RUA is divided between those who view Putin as the best thing since apple pie and those who find him the devil's agent on earth.

Putin is the proverbial little boy who cried wolf.  Always blaming the USA and the EU for his own shortcomings as a leader.  Continuing to attempt to blame the lower living standards and failing Russian federal budget on some sort of Western conspiracy.

Utter bollox Ant, you sure know nothing about your country's economics.

Look at the facts, there are far more people in the US enjoying a very low, much lower than Russian living standards.

Russia's federal budget is not failing, falling yes, but Russia has little to no external debt, unlike the US who has 19+ trillions debt.

And for sure, much of the current sanctions are in place by the EU due only to US pressures/threats.

Its not Russia who is the antagonist, its you  :censored: ers..

The antagonist is Putin and Russia who violated International law by invading and seizing Crimea and then went on to make the situation worse by invading and seizing land in Donetsk and Lugansk. 

Putin is a very greedy little man and no doubt he will continue to start trouble with the west by starting more wars and attempting to seize more land which does not belong to him.

If WWIII happens it will be because of Russian aggression and attempts to steal more land from others.  Once the USA and NATO decimate Russia they will be liable for war crimes and war damage against the people of Ukraine.

That would take something that you yanks and the majority of NATO countries do not have...    BALLS..  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: rosco on May 02, 2016, 04:49:55 AM
In some respects unfortunately RUA is divided between those who view Putin as the best thing since apple pie and those who find him the devil's agent on earth.

Putin is the proverbial little boy who cried wolf.  Always blaming the USA and the EU for his own shortcomings as a leader.  Continuing to attempt to blame the lower living standards and failing Russian federal budget on some sort of Western conspiracy.

 :Zzzzsleep:
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: rosco on May 02, 2016, 05:03:44 AM
The antagonist is Putin and Russia who violated International law by invading and seizing Crimea and then went on to make the situation worse by invading and seizing land in Donetsk and Lugansk. 

Putin is a very greedy little man and no doubt he will continue to start trouble with the west by starting more wars and attempting to seize more land which does not belong to him.

If WWIII happens it will be because of Russian aggression and attempts to steal more land from others.  Once the USA and NATO decimate Russia they will be liable for war crimes and war damage against the people of Ukraine.

You're a sick man Ant and need help fast.

I highly doubt any members here are anti-yank but many of us do feel its our place to point facts out to people like you. So it's all Putins fault and Russia are the aggressors? Do you know anything about your own countries foreign policy?

"The US is said to have carried out 32 distinct and separate bombing campaigns on 24 different countries between 1945 and 1999". "Countries the US has bombed since 1945 is in fact only the most visible aspect of US Intervention abroad. In practice, US led assassinations and overthrows of legitimate governments and interference with elections may be just as significant as the actual bombings listed here."

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/US_Bombing_campaigns_since_1945

"America Has Been At War 93% of the Time – 222 Out of 239 Years – Since 1776"

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41086.htm

So now it all comes out and you want to 'decimate Russia'? If you think you can drag the other NATO countries into yet another war with your arrogant cow boy attitude, particularly one against Russia, then I think you have seriously lost the plot.  :'(
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Maxx on May 02, 2016, 05:36:23 AM

Anteros, you've highjacked Czenny's thread and made it into a contentious issue.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on May 02, 2016, 07:58:37 AM

That would take something that you yanks and the majority of NATO countries do not have...    BALLS..  :ROFL:

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: AvHdB on May 02, 2016, 05:39:14 PM

Anteros, you've highjacked Czenny's thread and made it into a contentious issue.

I agree, but some have risen to the occasion.

Let's move back to the initial topic.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on May 02, 2016, 06:30:42 PM

Anteros, you've highjacked Czenny's thread and made it into a contentious issue.

I agree, but some have risen to the occasion.

Let's move back to the initial topic.

I don't think I have highjacked it at all.  If I were to write a ra-ra thread about US Parades in NY City celebrating our victories over Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan the UK pro-Putin bunch would be all over that thread with the usual claims that the US is a warmongering country blah blah blah.  If there isn't any balance then what is the point?

I think you actually probably agree with me that Putin and company use the Great Patriotic War aka WWII as a way to deflect away from bad economy and greed of his inner circle of Oligarchs.  Just wait till we hear the speech -- USA is evil, blah blah blah.

If some can criticize the USA incessantly (and I agree we need it sometimes) it makes no sense to have blind allegiance to Putin with never any thought behind it.  IMO.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Czenny on May 02, 2016, 07:21:40 PM
The notion democracy includes free expressions of one's views, doesn't it? So.
My opinion is as follows.
Anteros has written
Quote
I think you actually probably agree with me that Putin and company use the Great Patriotic War aka WWII as a way to deflect away from bad economy and greed of his inner circle of Oligarchs.

I do not agree with that.
In the FSU 9 May was ALWAYS a great holiday, much has been devoted to celebrate it: concerts, movies, and so on. In Russia and Ukraine it was and is the same. You may call it the tradition to immortalize memories of GRW heroes and those who dead in the war. It was a big, very big tragedy for the country, it was a lesson also, it was times when soviet people presented their strength and unity, it was a kind of examination of humanity, it was an example of existential sense of life, it was examples of sacrifices.
If for example the economy is excellent the day of 9 of May will be celebrated more intensively so to say in the country.
Putin is just a president(just!) . We have here millions of people who waits this Day, and it IS IMPORTANT for them.

Just come here and speak with ordinary people who speak of GPW with eyes full of tears and I am sure you will understand.
But being intelligent lady I understand your way of thinking and I understand why your thought are of that kind. Sometimes we need to penetrate in the subject we analyse ...we must feel the mood of analysed event  to understand this or that in this complicated life. It's not simple...ever...

With all my respect to all members of the forum.  :)
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Czenny on May 02, 2016, 07:48:52 PM
One of the most known and popular poem of GPW times, by a soviet writer Constantine Simonov.
Translation into English by Yuriy Zubovski.

Wait for me, and I’ll return.
But really truly wait,
Wait, when you are concerned
By yellow rains of late,
Wait, when the snows blow,
Wait, when it’s hot,
Wait, when others say to go,
With yesterday forgot.
Wait, when from far away
Letters don’t arrive,
Wait, when everyone might say
No hope survives.

Wait for me, and I’ll be return,
Do not wish them well
Those who have in their minds burned,
That it’s time to say farewell.
Let the mother and son believe
That I’ve from life retired,
Let friends no longer grieve,
Sit down by the fire,
Drink a bitter wine
In memory of me …
Wait. At the same time
Don’t drink free.

Wait for me, and I’ll return,
Death is who I’ll spite.
Who did not wait for me, in turn
He’ll say I’m lucky, quite.
They who did not wait can’t fathom,
How among the flames
By waiting for me, madam
Helped death be overcame.
How I survived, will consecrate
Only you and I, –
Simply: you knew how to wait,
And refused to say goodbye.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on May 02, 2016, 08:09:18 PM
The notion democracy includes free expressions of one's views, doesn't it? So.
My opinion is as follows.
Anteros has written
Quote
I think you actually probably agree with me that Putin and company use the Great Patriotic War aka WWII as a way to deflect away from bad economy and greed of his inner circle of Oligarchs.

I do not agree with that.
In the FSU 9 May was ALWAYS a great holiday, much has been devoted to celebrate it: concerts, movies, and so on. In Russia and Ukraine it was and is the same. You may call it the tradition to immortalize memories of GRW heroes and those who dead in the war. It was a big, very big tragedy for the country, it was a lesson also, it was times when soviet people presented their strength and unity, it was a kind of examination of humanity, it was an example of existential sense of life, it was examples of sacrifices.
If for example the economy is excellent the day of 9 of May will be celebrated more intensively so to say in the country.
Putin is just a president(just!) . We have here millions of people who waits this Day, and it IS IMPORTANT for them.

Just come here and speak with ordinary people who speak of GPW with eyes full of tears and I am sure you will understand.
But being intelligent lady I understand your way of thinking and I understand why your thought are of that kind. Sometimes we need to penetrate in the subject we analyse ...we must feel the mood of analysed event  to understand this or that in this complicated life. It's not simple...ever...

With all my respect to all members of the forum.  :)

What I wrote was directed at Av, not at you.  I am not surprised at your response. 

Also please understand that my criticism is of the Putin regime, not of the ordinary people who lost family members.  That is much different and on the actual day (May 9th) I will write something which is respectful and not critical.  Hope you understand the delineation of my thoughts.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Annushka on May 03, 2016, 12:25:57 AM
One of the most known and popular poem of GPW times, by a soviet writer Constantine Simonov.
Translation into English by Yuriy Zubovski.

Wait for me, and I’ll return.
But really truly wait,
Wait, when you are concerned
By yellow rains of late,
Wait, when the snows blow,
Wait, when it’s hot,
Wait, when others say to go,
With yesterday forgot.
Wait, when from far away
Letters don’t arrive,
Wait, when everyone might say
No hope survives.

Wait for me, and I’ll be return,
Do not wish them well
Those who have in their minds burned,
That it’s time to say farewell.
Let the mother and son believe
That I’ve from life retired,
Let friends no longer grieve,
Sit down by the fire,
Drink a bitter wine
In memory of me …
Wait. At the same time
Don’t drink free.

Wait for me, and I’ll return,
Death is who I’ll spite.
Who did not wait for me, in turn
He’ll say I’m lucky, quite.
They who did not wait can’t fathom,
How among the flames
By waiting for me, madam
Helped death be overcame.
How I survived, will consecrate
Only you and I, –
Simply: you knew how to wait,
And refused to say goodbye.

With your permission, a poem published in the newspaper "Pravda" (1942) is almost directly behind the poem Simonov, as a response to Soviet womens Soviet soldiers.

 ЖДУ ТЕБЯ

      Жду тебя, и ты пройдёшь
      Сквозь огонь и кровь.
      Жду тебя, и ты придёшь
      В дом родимый вновь.
      Жду, едва забрезжит свет,
      Жду в тиши ночей,
      Жду, когда полгода нет
      От тебя вестей.
      Я не знаю тех дорог,
      Где тебя найти,
      Запад, юг или восток
      На твоём пути?
      На полях ли снеговых
      Ранен ты в бою…
      Жду тебя и для других
      Рукавицы шью.
      Может, терпишь у врагов
      Горькую беду…
      Жду тебя без слёз и слов,
      Просто – очень жду.
      И ни боль, ни смерть, ни ложь
      Не разлучат нас.
      Жду тебя, и ты придёшь
      В мой счастливый час!
                                           Г. Рубинштейн, 1942 г.

Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: rosco on May 03, 2016, 03:32:03 AM
The notion democracy includes free expressions of one's views, doesn't it? So.
My opinion is as follows.
Anteros has written
Quote
I think you actually probably agree with me that Putin and company use the Great Patriotic War aka WWII as a way to deflect away from bad economy and greed of his inner circle of Oligarchs.

I do not agree with that.
In the FSU 9 May was ALWAYS a great holiday, much has been devoted to celebrate it: concerts, movies, and so on. In Russia and Ukraine it was and is the same. You may call it the tradition to immortalize memories of GRW heroes and those who dead in the war. It was a big, very big tragedy for the country, it was a lesson also, it was times when soviet people presented their strength and unity, it was a kind of examination of humanity, it was an example of existential sense of life, it was examples of sacrifices.
If for example the economy is excellent the day of 9 of May will be celebrated more intensively so to say in the country.
Putin is just a president(just!) . We have here millions of people who waits this Day, and it IS IMPORTANT for them.

Just come here and speak with ordinary people who speak of GPW with eyes full of tears and I am sure you will understand.
But being intelligent lady I understand your way of thinking and I understand why your thought are of that kind. Sometimes we need to penetrate in the subject we analyse ...we must feel the mood of analysed event  to understand this or that in this complicated life. It's not simple...ever...

With all my respect to all members of the forum.  :)

What I wrote was directed at Av, not at you.  I am not surprised at your response. 

Also please understand that my criticism is of the Putin regime, not of the ordinary people who lost family members.  That is much different and on the actual day (May 9th) I will write something which is respectful and not critical.  Hope you understand the delineation of my thoughts.

Czenny was only answering with what many others would like to convey.....but in a more informed, personal and real style. You seem to have a real hatred for anything Putin/Russia and it surprises me that you spend so much time on a forum like this.

You'll also find that the "UK-pro Putin bunch" are only telling it how they see it. A strong man with plenty to be admired, taking decisions for his countries benefit but making some mistakes from a world citizen perspective. The thing is though, Western media do their best to portray Putin as the devil and sadly folk like you lap it up, whereas he's traditionally been less problematic or intrusive than any US president. You just don't like him because he won't roll over like a submissive dog.

It's clear to see why you can't grasp this after all the debates we've had. For us, its about the truth and you, a one sided American isolated mentality.

-- Mod note: This topic has been split and the replies to this post are now here: >>here<< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,25675.0.html) to keep this topic on subject --
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Tom Cat on May 08, 2016, 12:12:19 PM
There's no denying Russia's contributions in defeating the Nazis.
Had Germany not suffered great loss courtesy of Russia, the end results may have been even more devastating.

In WWII 3 out of 4 German KIA Were by Soviet Army

WWII's Eastern Front was by far the bloodiest theater of war the world has ever seen. It cost the lives of nearly 12 million combatants of which 4.3 million Axis troops including 3.55 million Germans - death tolls far in excess of those in the west

http://russia-insider.com/en/history/wwii-3-out-4-german-kia-were-soviet-army/ri6663
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: AvHdB on May 08, 2016, 07:14:02 PM
For most today in Ukraine and Russia, is a day of remembrance but also celebration. To those who lost relatives, may you remember and hold dear what they fought for.

As many will say Victory has a terrible price.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Anteros on May 08, 2016, 09:41:47 PM
For most today in Ukraine and Russia, is a day of remembrance but also celebration. To those who lost relatives, may you remember and hold dear what they fought for.

As many will say Victory has a terrible price.

Well said.  tiphat
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: AvHdB on April 26, 2018, 05:30:22 PM
I looked for a thread regarding "The War to End all Wars" but it does not seem there is one. Sort of interesting in today's world there were slogans over 100 years ago

So I will qoute the below Twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/i/moments/989503812586164224

The images are more compelling than any words.
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Annushka on May 06, 2018, 09:53:12 PM
Happy Victory Day!!!


Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Wiz on May 07, 2018, 01:44:52 AM
Thank you Annushka for the Music and the link..... looks somebody is paying attention to my request.

Waiting to see the Presidential inauguration today...watching live RT.

And for you here another couple of Russian music ....

Slavianka ...



and this very nice one:

"Salute of Moscow" (Semeon Tchernetsky)



Enjoy today and tomorrow parade........

 tiphat
Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Annushka on May 07, 2018, 09:35:10 AM
Thank you Annushka for the Music and the link..... looks somebody is paying attention to my request.

Waiting to see the Presidential inauguration today...watching live RT.

And for you here another couple of Russian music ....

Slavianka ...



and this very nice one:

"Salute of Moscow" (Semeon Tchernetsky)



Enjoy today and tomorrow parade........

 tiphat

Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:  In Russia everyone knows and loves songs of the war years. Please, you too enjoy, medley of military songs in my video.  tiphat


And, of course, the legendary military song "Katyusha", beloved by everyone! :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Great Patriotic War ( Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna)
Post by: Wiz on May 07, 2018, 02:35:43 PM
Thank you Annushka for the Music and the link..... looks somebody is paying attention to my request.

Waiting to see the Presidential inauguration today...watching live RT.

And for you here another couple of Russian music ....

Slavianka ...



and this very nice one:

"Salute of Moscow" (Semeon Tchernetsky)



Enjoy today and tomorrow parade........

 tiphat

Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:  In Russia everyone knows and loves songs of the war years. Please, you too enjoy, medley of military songs in my video.  tiphat


And, of course, the legendary military song "Katyusha", beloved by everyone! :thumbsup:


Thank you

I enjoyed watching today the inauguration of the President and listing to many patriotic songs.

 :thumbsup: