Russian, Ukrainian & FSU Information & Manosphere Discussion Forums
Information & Chat => Russian, Ukrainian & FSU Culture and Customs => Topic started by: msmoby on July 20, 2015, 02:49:07 AM
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Bought some electric cable and fittings to mount some sockets in a more convenient place.
I was looking on the net - How to wire a type F plug - and got lots of hits on how to wire an f-connector for satellite systems :chuckle:
Am I correct in assuming that wiring the blue/ brown - neutral / live is not as important as in the UK - as it seems that the type C or F plugs can be inserted either way...
F PLUG
(http://www.iec.ch/worldplugs/img/plugs_sockets/F_3d_plug_l.png)
(http://www.iec.ch/worldplugs/img/plugs_sockets/C_3d_plug_l.png)
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It depends on the appliance, but generally speaking it is less important. For good practice if wiring sockets, I would put live so it feeds the right hand pin socket is live as you look at the front of the socket.
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It depends on the appliance, but generally speaking it is less important. For good practice if wiring sockets, I would put live so it feeds the right hand pin socket is live as you look at the front of the socket.
Thank you, Manny...
If I do not respond - you'll know you were 'wrong' :chuckle:
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Hi Mark,
You are right the blue/brown side does not matter at all. It is only preference of the person making it and/or room inside the socket for whats convenient.
Coloring can be as following inside walls:
Blue -> Return wire
Brown -> Live wire.
Black -> Live wire, after switches. (Brown is only meant for direct from provider live wire, without having met any switches)
Green/Yellow -> Earth fault protector wire, usually only attached in 'wet' rooms like bathroom, toilet, outside, etc.
Mark.
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Let's hear it for the good old British three-pronger, solid, earthed and fused.......
(http://johnlewis.scene7.com/is/image/JohnLewis/231577941?$prod_grid3$)
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Let's hear it for the good old British three-pronger, solid, earthed and fused.......
(http://johnlewis.scene7.com/is/image/JohnLewis/231577941?$prod_grid3$)
I don't care what system, but will the world finally switch over to 1 system? I run both UK and European in my house and its a PITA!
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Hi all, still alive...
I wired plug end as suggested and the light comes on on the extension end - BUT... the light does not go off ...does not matter which way it is switched ???
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_121539_zps8tdd1rjb.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_121532_zpsz6pg2pew.jpg)
I connected the brown / blue cables to the place where the existing blue / brown were located
Suggestions ... (:)
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Have you tried sticking your fingers in the socket to see if it's live?
.
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Have you tried sticking your fingers in the socket to see if it's live?
Did Afi suggest that? :chuckle:
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Plug end
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_122453_zpsxyahwv6h.jpg)
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So reversed the plug wiring and ......no difference - the socket cannot be turned off ???
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_123321_zpscz81vcyc.jpg)
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update
took apart another switched extension lead
duh... need to solder the feeds to the switch ..
:chuckle:
Thanks for all your help - will buy a solder gun and some solder, this evening...
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update
took apart another switched extension lead
duh... need to solder the feeds to the switch ..
:chuckle:
Thanks for all your help - will buy a solder gun and some solder, this evening...
Aren't you just changing the plug?
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Sorry, Aka Luke..don't understand...
I am wiring up a 10m 3 core cable to a plug one end and a 3 way switched gang t'other... it WORKs...just need to solder the feeds to the switch as it seems I am by passing them !)
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Sorry, Aka Luke..don't understand...
I am wiring up a 10m 3 core cable to a plug one end and a 3 way switched gang t'other... it WORKs...just need to solder the feeds to the switch as it seems I am by passing them !)
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I thought you had a 10m extension lead and wanted to re terminate the plug once you fed the cable through the hole. But you're making each end off yourself yes,
It sounds like you have the Line & Neutral switched around with the light issue but I could be wrong.
Удачи
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You have my aum right...but the it seems that here it matters not which way the L / N are wired..( the plug can be plugged in either way)....the issue is just I by passed the switch
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You have my aum right...but the it seems that here it matters not which way the L / N are wired..( the plug can be plugged in either way)....the issue is just I by passed the switch
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It will operate wired eitherway but I'm sure there is a set way it should be wired. I'm assuming this is the same as a schuco plug used in Europe? Some appliances are polarity sensitive and the earth pin you see IN SOME schuco sockets is what determines the way you plug it in and therefore the polarity. If you've wired it up willy nilly then it's a 50/50. It's rare to find a polarity sensitive appliance but just be aware of that.
Always connect the earth pin, it's there for a reason and will rupture the circuit much quicker under earth fault condition.
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It is an F type electric plug and the earth cable IS attached and the earth strip on the 3 way gangs and sockets are present top and bottom, to allow the plug to be inserted either way.
C-type electric plugs...without an earth prong .... also work either way
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Have you tried sticking your fingers in the socket to see if it's live?
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Make sure you are stood in a bath full of water when you do though, just to be sure :hidechair: :laugh:
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It is an F type electric plug and the earth cable IS attached and the earth strip on the 3 way gangs and sockets are present top and bottom, to allow the plug to be inserted either way.
C-type electric plugs...without an earth prong .... also work either way
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Too many plug types too much confusion.
Below is what I'm talking about. Hope that makes sense now.
(http://www.asia.ru/images/target/photo/51643741/AC_European_Standard_Power_Supply_Cord_and_Plug.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/French-power-socket.jpg/200px-French-power-socket.jpg)
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)) I posted the plug in my first post...
The socket you've posted is NOT what we have here...two yr old construction.... with cat 5e network points !!!
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(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_142805_zpsrh3avekp.jpg)
Thanks...once again..to all that have offered advice ))
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Always connect the earth pin, it's there for a reason and will rupture the circuit much quicker under earth fault condition.
What Luke said.
Abroad they seem less fussy about earths, but always connect them if available. And if bare, make sure they are sheathed.
The Y003 like Luke posted, polarity does matter. With most euro sockets it doesn't though.
I run both UK and European in my house and its a PITA!
I put British sockets in the kitchen in Estonia. Not only because I took out UK appliances, they just seem safer to me.
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1/ used three core wire - and connected earth :thumbsup:
2/ clearly polarity IS irrelevant - as type C and F PLUGS work either way ??? I have followed Manny's and Luke's advice - just in case .. I CANNOT see how I can stop folk inserting the plug, anyway they feel :-X
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Abroad they seem less fussy about earths, but always connect them if available. And if bare, make sure they are sheathed.
In NL, it has been mandatory to make all sockets with earth-connection, since 1997. Before it was only the wet-rooms like I described earlier.
Sheesh, I learned this stuff in school not 15 years ago and its already outdated!
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)) I posted the plug in my first post...
The socket you've posted is NOT what we have here...two yr old construction.... with cat 5e network points !!!
.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_142805_zpsrh3avekp.jpg)
Thanks...once again..to all that have offered advice ))
Ok, so what you have there is a legrand styled outlet which if it has been installed correctly has an earth to it (now who knows if that has been tested by doing an earth loop reading?) but hopefully its connected there some how, either way you put the plug in it should be earthed and just the poles reversed not much of a problem
The plug type you are showing here is a class 2 insulated plug and should only be attached to a class 2 insulated item thus not needing an earth.
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Spasibo !)
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Hi all, still alive...
I wired plug end as suggested and the light comes on on the extension end - BUT... the light does not go off ...does not matter which way it is switched ???
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_121539_zps8tdd1rjb.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/Mobile%20Uploads/20150720_121532_zpsz6pg2pew.jpg)
I connected the brown / blue cables to the place where the existing blue / brown were located
Suggestions ... (:)
To me it would look like you'd have to connect the blue and brown wire not where the existing brown/blue are connected in the box, but at the light itself (looks like it has some metal connectors on bottom left?). This way the light will work and it will act like an on/off switch :-) On the position of blue/brown left/right there's no real hard rule. But since most people are right handed it's more practical to put the live wire on the left in wall sockets ;-) But in reality it doesn't matter much just as long as your consistent and use proper color wiring. I rewired the whole apartment last year together with my brother who's a certified electrician :-) Put ground wire everywhere as well (TV, PC and Sub require it too :-P) and usb charging sockets, speaker, international (EU and US in 1) sockets + moved them from 105cm to 30cm height and added a few more so we have 4 sockets instead of 2 everywhere :-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
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Abroad they seem less fussy about earths, but always connect them if available. And if bare, make sure they are sheathed.
In NL, it has been mandatory to make all sockets with earth-connection, since 1997. Before it was only the wet-rooms like I described earlier.
In Russia I bet earthing to a piece of metal pole under the floor or a gas pipe is not uncommon. Like here in the 70's and 80's. :eeekk:
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Thanks Herrie!)
Bought solder and a soldering iron, last night. Will try to wire up the switch after my morning dip)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/20150721_091146_zpsbaago7jo.jpg)
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Green/Yellow -> Earth fault protector wire, usually only attached in 'wet' rooms like bathroom, toilet, outside, etc.
Mark.
You are joking, right?
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That's it, moby, with that unkempt mop looks like Eddie Izzard the cross dressing comedian.
In the pic above it even looks as though our 'Eddie' is sporting turquoise coloured ear jewelry.
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In Russia I bet earthing to a piece of metal pole under the floor or a gas pipe is not uncommon. Like here in the 70's and 80's. :eeekk:
That's a situation you may have found in more rural areas where the electrical supply comes via overhead lines, in these situations the electricity supplier doesn't provide an earth. In the past they used incoming services such as the water to provide this, but these days a metal rod is just driven into the ground and the earth connection taken from that.
You'll still find earth attached to your incoming gas and water, but this to prevent any extraneous voltages being introduced via these services.
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That's it, moby, with that unkempt mop looks like Eddie Izzard the cross dressing comedian.
In the pic above it even looks as though our 'Eddie' is sporting turquoise coloured ear jewelry.
)))
Andrewfi just called me moby!))
At least I have hair..
.
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Like this?
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Green/Yellow -> Earth fault protector wire, usually only attached in 'wet' rooms like bathroom, toilet, outside, etc.
Mark.
You are joking, right?
Nope, they changed that law only in 1997 I found out. Houses built before that (including my own) have only live/return wires in rooms like the living room, bedroom, etc.
Good thing too, if your earth-connection leaks too much you might get an earth-loop which can shock you hard, thats why initially they didn't do this. However as double-insulation in equipment became more common, nowadays it makes more sense to make all sockets earth-protected.
I once noted 100V difference between the heating-radiator and the earth-wire of my computer. I found it first without a volt-meter using my knee :-[
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Green/Yellow -> Earth fault protector wire, usually only attached in 'wet' rooms like bathroom, toilet, outside, etc.
Mark.
You are joking, right?
Nope, they changed that law only in 1997 I found out. Houses built before that (including my own) have only live/return wires in rooms like the living room, bedroom, etc.
Good thing too, if your earth-connection leaks too much you might get an earth-loop which can shock you hard, thats why initially they didn't do this. However as double-insulation in equipment became more common, nowadays it makes more sense to make all sockets earth-protected.
I once noted 100V difference between the heating-radiator and the earth-wire of my computer. I found it first without a volt-meter using my knee :-[
Earth leaks too much you might get a shock?
Earth leakage causes nuisance tripping, not shocks.
The whole idea of an Earthing system/arrangement is to rupture a circuit instantaneously or as close as possible which is how systems are designed.... cable sizes, distances, etc.
How this happens is by returning the Line current back to the centre point of a transformer which is tapped to earth....essentially a short circuit which causes a high rush of current which trips your circuit breaker or ruptures your fuse/protective device quickly and reducing your exposure to stray voltages and currents.
This return to earth can be via a dedicated earth cable, a combined neutral/earth cable or via an earth electrode as mentioned by Michael. (There are other methods also)
The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
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'Earth loop'
Down the line conductor, then down the earth back to the transformer. Earth loop resistances should be very low.. the lower they are the higher the fault current....the higher the fault current the quicker the protective device operates.
We're talking miliseconds for sockets
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The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
And to top it all off, the earth-fault-wire is meant to protect against live-wire to ground leaks, not for ground-wire to ground leaks.
Mark.
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The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
And to top it all off, the earth-fault-wire is meant to protect against live-wire to ground leaks, not for ground-wire to ground leaks.
Mark.
Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
You're taking about dry and wet skin (again)! Read what I wrote.......
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
Edit: It's not to do with grounded or no grounded circuits it's to do with extraneous and equipotential bonding. Which have been around in the UK and Europe for decades, possibly even before the 80s.
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Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
I can do a lot with my knowledge.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
We agree on 1 thing, electricity kills.
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
I just told you they weren't connected .... The grounding wire is connected to the electric company ground, which is supposedly very good (and it is). The radiator however, is connected to the earth (as in sand , dirt, rock etc.)
This difference can be 100V , i found that out myself, first by shocking myself and then by using a multi-meter (108,7V) to measure the difference.
Mark.
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The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
And to top it all off, the earth-fault-wire is meant to protect against live-wire to ground leaks, not for ground-wire to ground leaks.
Mark.
Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
You're taking about dry and wet skin (again)! Read what I wrote.......
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
Edit: It's not to do with grounded or no grounded circuits it's to do with extraneous and equipotential bonding. Which have been around in the UK and Europe for decades, possibly even before the 80s.
Don't know when it was first used, but I recall it was c.1981 when it first came into practice in the UK, when the change from the 14th to the 15th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations came in to force. I remember an electrician telling me about it for my first property we were refurbishing at the time.
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The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
And to top it all off, the earth-fault-wire is meant to protect against live-wire to ground leaks, not for ground-wire to ground leaks.
Mark.
Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
You're taking about dry and wet skin (again)! Read what I wrote.......
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
Edit: It's not to do with grounded or no grounded circuits it's to do with extraneous and equipotential bonding. Which have been around in the UK and Europe for decades, possibly even before the 80s.
Don't know when it was first used, but I recall it was c.1981 when it first came into practice in the UK, when the change from the 14th to the 15th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations came in to force. I remember an electrician telling me about it for a property we were refurbishing at the time.
Equipotential Bonding of bathrooms rads etc etc is no longer part of the regulations (17th)
-
The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
And to top it all off, the earth-fault-wire is meant to protect against live-wire to ground leaks, not for ground-wire to ground leaks.
Mark.
Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
You're taking about dry and wet skin (again)! Read what I wrote.......
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
Edit: It's not to do with grounded or no grounded circuits it's to do with extraneous and equipotential bonding. Which have been around in the UK and Europe for decades, possibly even before the 80s.
Don't know when it was first used, but I recall it was c.1981 when it first came into practice in the UK, when the change from the 14th to the 15th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations came in to force. I remember an electrician telling me about it for a property we were refurbishing at the time.
Equipotential Bonding of bathrooms rads etc etc is no longer part of the regulations (17th)
It is unless there is an RCD or an RCBO present. In which case it can be omitted.
-
Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
I can do a lot with my knowledge.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
We agree on 1 thing, electricity kills.
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
I just told you they weren't connected .... The grounding wire is connected to the electric company ground, which is supposedly very good (and it is). The radiator however, is connected to the earth (as in sand , dirt, rock etc.)
This difference can be 100V , i found that out myself, first by shocking myself and then by using a multi-meter (108,7V) to measure the difference.
Mark.
Mark Mark Mark. :hidechair:
You are telling us there was a difference of 100+V between your earth wire (Which should be at 0volts except under fault conditions) and your radiator? How do you have 100V on your Earth wire or on your radiator? DId you wire your house?
Again read what is being said 'If you had all your extraneous parts connected to the earthing system at the main earthing terminal in your electric intake (Which as been mandatory across developed Europe for decades now) then there would not be a potential difference as they (extraneous parts) are all at......wait for it....the same potential - that means no voltage difference.
:'(
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The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
And to top it all off, the earth-fault-wire is meant to protect against live-wire to ground leaks, not for ground-wire to ground leaks.
Mark.
Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
You're taking about dry and wet skin (again)! Read what I wrote.......
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
Edit: It's not to do with grounded or no grounded circuits it's to do with extraneous and equipotential bonding. Which have been around in the UK and Europe for decades, possibly even before the 80s.
Don't know when it was first used, but I recall it was c.1981 when it first came into practice in the UK, when the change from the 14th to the 15th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations came in to force. I remember an electrician telling me about it for a property we were refurbishing at the time.
Equipotential Bonding of bathrooms rads etc etc is no longer part of the regulations (17th)
It is unless there is an RCD or an RCBO present. In which case it can be omitted.
I can't recall having to do it lately as it happens, but that must be because everything is stripped out and rewired, with new consumer units (with trips) etc, the house we are doing at the moment I am told the consumers units now have to be metal again, (insulated) changed from plastic casings, is this correct?
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The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
And to top it all off, the earth-fault-wire is meant to protect against live-wire to ground leaks, not for ground-wire to ground leaks.
Mark.
Mark.
You're getting very confused. I own a computer myself, however IT expert I'm not.
Ground loop left open? If you don't have more than a basic knowledge don't keep going on about a subject. Electricity kills!
You're taking about dry and wet skin (again)! Read what I wrote.......
If you're extraneous conductive parts (radiators pipes etc) are connected to the earthing system of the house then they are at the same potential...the same voltage so there is no potential difference so no 100v potential to pass through or across your wet or dry body.
Edit: It's not to do with grounded or no grounded circuits it's to do with extraneous and equipotential bonding. Which have been around in the UK and Europe for decades, possibly even before the 80s.
Don't know when it was first used, but I recall it was c.1981 when it first came into practice in the UK, when the change from the 14th to the 15th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations came in to force. I remember an electrician telling me about it for a property we were refurbishing at the time.
Equipotential Bonding of bathrooms rads etc etc is no longer part of the regulations (17th)
It is unless there is an RCD or an RCBO present. In which case it can be omitted.
I can't recall having to do it lately as it happens, but that must be because everything is stripped out and rewired, with new consumer units (with trips) etc, the house we are doing at the moment I am told the consumers units now have to be metal again, (insulated) changed from plastic casings, is this correct?
Yes they have to be of 'Flame retardant material' or some similar phrase. That was brought in the latest amendment in January.
You wouldn't fit the bathroom bonding now as like you say RCD's or RCBO's remove the need to.
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Mark Mark Mark. :hidechair:
You are telling us there was a difference of 100+V between your earth wire (Which should be at 0volts except under fault conditions) and your radiator? How do you have 100V on your Earth wire or on your radiator? DId you wire your house?
It can, it did, i got shocked by it !
So I guess your "except under fault conditions" just kicked in, it was a faulty condition between ground and my radiator.
Again read what is being said 'If you had all your extraneous parts connected to the earthing system at the main earthing terminal in your electric intake (Which as been mandatory across developed Europe for decades now) then there would not be a potential difference as they (extraneous parts) are all at......wait for it....the same potential - that means no voltage difference.
Mandatory since 1997, in Netherlands, I just said.
And there is no voltage difference between the electrical equipment, my radiator is not part of the electrical equipment, its a huge metal conductor connected to the earth, by miles of conducting pipes.
Please read up on shielded and unshielded transformers and double-insulated equipment to see what I mean.
You can keep whining about my knowledge of electric circuits, but quite frankly, you keep answering as if to a child whilst I am using quite advanced concepts. So I think I will stop replying now, you're just trolling me.
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In Russia Ring mains contravene the regulations (:)
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Mark Mark Mark. :hidechair:
You are telling us there was a difference of 100+V between your earth wire (Which should be at 0volts except under fault conditions) and your radiator? How do you have 100V on your Earth wire or on your radiator? DId you wire your house?
It can, it did, i got shocked by it !
So I guess your "except under fault conditions" just kicked in, it was a faulty condition between ground and my radiator.
Again read what is being said 'If you had all your extraneous parts connected to the earthing system at the main earthing terminal in your electric intake (Which as been mandatory across developed Europe for decades now) then there would not be a potential difference as they (extraneous parts) are all at......wait for it....the same potential - that means no voltage difference.
Mandatory since 1997, in Netherlands, I just said.
And there is no voltage difference between the electrical equipment, my radiator is not part of the electrical equipment, its a huge metal conductor connected to the earth, by miles of conducting pipes.
Please read up on shielded and unshielded transformers and double-insulated equipment to see what I mean.
You can keep whining about my knowledge of electric circuits, but quite frankly, you keep answering as if to a child whilst I am using quite advanced concepts. So I think I will stop replying now, you're just trolling me.
Advanced concepts? Really? Miles of conducting pipe? You can verify it's miles of conducting pipe? There's no MDPE in there or any other non conducting material in those miles? It makes its way back to the supply transformer does it within a required resistance? That isn't an accepted means of earthing anywhere in the world with a clean water supply. If you understand what is being said here you'd know that and wouldn't start using unrelated jargon...shielded transformers, double insulated which are irrelevant to what's being discussed here.
Equipotential bonding serves the purpose of ensuring that the earthed metalwork (exposed conductive parts) of the installation is connected to other metalwork (extraneous conductive parts) to ensure that no dangerous potential differences can occur. The resistance of such a bonding conductor must be low enough to ensure that its volt drop when carrying the operating current of the protective device never exceeds 50 V
The definition of an extraneous-conductive-part is “a conductive part liable to introduce a potential, generally earth potential, and not forming part of the electrical installation”.
I'm still concerned that you have a potential difference of 100 volts across your earth cable/radiator. It's not right Mark.
If it was under fault conditions then it should have been at 50volts or less and it should have ruptured before you had the chance to get your volt meter out. Sounds like you have some dodgy wiring in your house and a serious lack of Extraneous bonding. Get it fixed, it could kill!
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In Russia Ring mains contravene the regulations (:)
In Russia regulations contravene you!
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In Russia Ring mains contravene the regulations (:)
Ring mains are a British/UK thing. Not used on the continent as far as I'm aware. It's all 16 Amp radials which is why European houses have more circuits then ours.
It came about after the 2nd world war and subsequent copper shortages. A ring main can spread a larger load than a radial can for typically a little extra copper.
They work and have since stuck.
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Advanced concepts? Really? Miles of conducting pipe? You can verify it's miles of conducting pipe?
Easily, many miles.... a whole city grid of conducting pipes in fact. There are about 1200 streets across 20 miles of city, all of the houses on the streets are connected by the same piping, all of them 1-solid-block of conductors touching the mass of the earth.
I'm still concerned that you have a potential difference of 100 volts across your earth cable/radiator. It's not right Mark.
Tell me something I don't know :laugh:
If it was under fault conditions then it should have been at 50volts or less and it should have ruptured before you had the chance to get your volt meter out. Sounds like you have some dodgy wiring in your house and a serious lack of Extraneous bonding. Get it fixed, it could kill!
I have had it fixed, by removing the earth-connection from the room, as it is the easiest solution.
Now my house is in pre-1997 condition again, as it was when it was built in 1972.
The ground-breaker still only protects from live -> ground leaks, not ground->ground differences.
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In Russia Ring mains contravene the regulations (:)
In Russia regulations contravene you!
Well i think thats a worldwide thing as well, i find living there a damm site easier than the UK
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In Russia Ring mains contravene the regulations (:)
Ring mains are a British/UK thing. Not used on the continent as far as I'm aware. It's all 16 Amp radials which is why European houses have more circuits then ours.
It came about after the 2nd world war and subsequent copper shortages. A ring main can spread a larger load than a radial can for typically a little extra copper.
They work and have since stuck.
Yep my house in Russia has ring mains ;)
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Is the lack of a ring main why, in one of my apartments, I could blow the circuit breaker when I had on my kettle, cooker and washing machine at the same time?
It was my understanding that apartments there were fitted with a thing called a spur which was susceptible to this overloading issue.
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Advanced concepts? Really? Miles of conducting pipe? You can verify it's miles of conducting pipe?
Easily, many miles.... a whole city grid of conducting pipes in fact. There are about 1200 streets across 20 miles of city, all of the houses on the streets are connected by the same piping, all of them 1-solid-block of conductors touching the mass of the earth.
I'm still concerned that you have a potential difference of 100 volts across your earth cable/radiator. It's not right Mark.
Tell me something I don't know :laugh:
If it was under fault conditions then it should have been at 50volts or less and it should have ruptured before you had the chance to get your volt meter out. Sounds like you have some dodgy wiring in your house and a serious lack of Extraneous bonding. Get it fixed, it could kill!
I have had it fixed, by removing the earth-connection from the room, as it is the easiest solution.
Now my house is in pre-1997 condition again, as it was when it was built in 1972.
The ground-breaker still only protects from live -> ground leaks, not ground->ground differences.
Advanced concepts? Really? Miles of conducting pipe? You can verify it's miles of conducting pipe?
Easily, many miles.... a whole city grid of conducting pipes in fact. There are about 1200 streets across 20 miles of city, all of the houses on the streets are connected by the same piping, all of them 1-solid-block of conductors touching the mass of the earth.
I'm still concerned that you have a potential difference of 100 volts across your earth cable/radiator. It's not right Mark.
Tell me something I don't know :laugh:
If it was under fault conditions then it should have been at 50volts or less and it should have ruptured before you had the chance to get your volt meter out. Sounds like you have some dodgy wiring in your house and a serious lack of Extraneous bonding. Get it fixed, it could kill!
I have had it fixed, by removing the earth-connection from the room, as it is the easiest solution.
Now my house is in pre-1997 condition again, as it was when it was built in 1972.
The ground-breaker still only protects from live -> ground leaks, not ground->ground differences.
So to fix the problem you've removed all earthing? The means of returning an Earth fault back to the transformer and rupturing the circuit and you've removed it because it was the easiest solution :'(
The ground breaker? What are you on about?
Read about equipotential and extraneous bonding they protect against the differences you've experienced, haven't you followed anything? You're the electrical expert getting electrical shocks and to prevent it happening again are removing the safety systems in place and returning to the dark ages....
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
You cannot verify that the pipes underground conduct at all (it's common to use MDPE now) and that they make a suitable connection back to the transformer. ON a good day this would be classed as bad practice at the least.
Have a little read up on Kirchoff's law Mark. It might make things a little clearer, though he's been dead over 100 years I suspect you'll already know of his work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws)
Did I tell you about this new OS I've got, DOS 3.1.
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Is the lack of a ring main why, in one of my apartments, I could blow the circuit breaker when I had on my kettle, cooker and washing machine at the same time?
It was my understanding that apartments there were fitted with a thing called a spur which was susceptible to this overloading issue.
Because it was fed by a 16 amp breaker, you can spur and run as many sockets off of it as you want but you've only got so much juice there so once it exceeds it, it then ruptures.
I'd have thought most kitchens would have more than 1 radial but then again they're not made for English folk like us to do our washing, cook a fry up and make a brew at the same time so other probably suffice with 1. circuit.
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Would a ring main have made any difference?
I was always concerned to not simply add a higher value breaker to the circuit in case the wiring was not up to the job, is that something about which to be concerned?
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Would a ring main have made any difference?
I was always concerned to not simply add a higher value breaker to the circuit in case the wiring was not up to the job, is that something about which to be concerned?
Yes instead of a 16 Amp you could fit a 32amp breaker, however you need to go to the last socket and connect it back to the consumer unit with another cable which could be ballache.
Assuming yours is a 16amp, swap it for a 20 and should solve your issue.
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You cannot verify that the pipes underground conduct at all (it's common to use MDPE now) and that they make a suitable connection back to the transformer. ON a good day this would be classed as bad practice at the least.
They're all copper, all of them, under the whole city, connections, piping, machine, all of it. I don't see how MDPE can carry 80C hot water safely, but I'll take your word for it that thats possible.
All houses have multiple live wires, each protected by a 3000W circuit breaker. If more than 16A goes through it, it shuts off the power.
They are also protected by a 2W ground-breaker, meaning that if a live-wire looses more than 2W to ground, it will shut off the power.
In my closet, I have 6 circuits. 2 are protected by the ground breaker (Bathroom, toilet (1) and garden (2)), the others are only protected by a circuit breaker.
Meaning : If a socket in a non-protected circuit looses power to the ground, it WONT break, meaning that earth-wire in that socket is a danger waiting to happen (as i found out). Removing it is the sane thing to do, until you get the ground-breaker installed on those circuits. (which can cost thousands)
Now my computer-case is 'floating' causing a bit of static on my audio, but nothing lethal like the 100V i had before.
Mark.
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Thanks, it is years since I had this issue, the current place is a new build and made to Finnish standards and so no problems - so many circuits for one apartment though!
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Would a ring main have made any difference?
I was always concerned to not simply add a higher value breaker to the circuit in case the wiring was not up to the job, is that something about which to be concerned?
If the wiring is 2,5mm you should be fine with a 20A fuse, but not more than that.
If the wiring is 1,5mm , I wouldn't increase over 16A.
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You cannot verify that the pipes underground conduct at all (it's common to use MDPE now) and that they make a suitable connection back to the transformer. ON a good day this would be classed as bad practice at the least.
They're all copper, all of them, under the whole city, connections, piping, machine, all of it. I don't see how MDPE can carry 80C hot water safely, but I'll take your word for it that thats possible.
All houses have multiple live wires, each protected by a 3000W circuit breaker. If more than 16A goes through it, it shuts off the power.
They are also protected by a 2W ground-breaker, meaning that if a live-wire looses more than 2W to ground, it will shut off the power.
In my closet, I have 6 circuits. 2 are protected by the ground breaker (Bathroom, toilet (1) and garden (2)), the others are only protected by a circuit breaker.
Meaning : If a socket in a non-protected circuit looses power to the ground, it WONT break, meaning that earth-wire in that socket is a danger waiting to happen (as i found out). Removing it is the sane thing to do, until you get the ground-breaker installed on those circuits. (which can cost thousands)
Now my computer-case is 'floating' causing a bit of static on my audio, but nothing lethal like the 100V i had before.
Mark.
So the water company have to cut a pipe out for a day.......bang there goes your earthing mechanism. No control over that whatsoever. Can't be done! I would be very surprised if it is copper past the property for 2 reasons;
Copper is never used in industrial or commercial situations with high water flow as it isn't strong enough (Soft metal)
Copper is way more expensive than steel/iron especially when you're talking of 1200 streets that's a lot of money to put in the ground. Considering lime and concrete eat copper too.
This ground breaker you talk of sounds like an RCD, we pay $120 here for a board with 2 of them in that can link to each circuit breaker or pay $300 for a board full of them for each circuit.
3000W/220 = 13.63 Amps
The earth wire in the socket is the solution not the problem. It is there to take it back to the supply transformer not hold it there for you to receive a shock. That's the point of earthing systems, forget ground breakers and what not....you have a fault from Line to Earth then you have a huge rush of current (essentially a short circuit from the peak voltage to the centre point of the Transformer) which ruptures your circuit breaker as it rushes past. That's the point of the circuit breaker (or fuse) to rupture in an earth fault (or a Neutral to Line fault also) Ground breaker or whatever you call it just does it quicker and is way more sensitive hence used in areas with water.
If you have an Earthed appliance and no path back to Earth (Zs) then you my friend, are french connectioned!
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So the water company have to cut a pipe out for a day.......bang there goes your earthing mechanism. No control over that whatsoever. Can't be done! I would be very surprised if it is copper past the property for 2 reasons;
You keep confusing the real earth (electric) with the practical earth (radiator with copper wire into the ground)
Copper is never used in industrial or commercial situations with high water flow as it isn't strong enough (Soft metal)
Yet it is ....
I know for 100% sure, because the city noted the misstake and have begun replacing the piping, but not yet in my city grid. When this all went down, the whole city was copper.
This ground breaker you talk of sounds like an RCD, we pay $120 here for a board with 2 of them in that can link to each circuit breaker or pay $300 for a board full of them for each circuit.
Material isn't the big pricing, its getting it all through the pipes in the house that have not been put according to regulations/rules. They took the shortest path basicly instead of following the wall-drawings of the nen-1010 regulations. Its always a surprise hanging a painting or other things that require drilling in walls :GRRRR: If I have the time/money I might hire someone with infrared equipment to re-map my house walls so I know where all stuff goes.
3000W/220 = 13.63 Amps
Sounds about right. ~14 amps sustained current or 16A+ peak current will break the circuit.
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Its always hard to keep up with some of this stuff. We have an electricians handbook that is updated often that specifies good practice. Luke sounds like he is up to speed on the modern acceptable values.
Our flat in Estonia is wired to a Canadian standard [no, I don't know why either]. I recall an English Sparky I had, opened up the main box, tested around a bit after saying "Sh!t, that looks complex!" and then phoned a friend for advice. In the end, he got his head around it. We have extra wiring to account for earthing standards not common in the UK and the multi polarity setup. Added to the fact that we had a washer outlet in the bathroom [normal in the FSU] which is verboten in much of the EU. :drunk:
Some of what I do day-to-day involves bringing vintage appliances up to date, and more frequently converting stuff from the US to work in the UK. Much recently has been stuff from the States that people want to make work here. This means we have to figure out US 110-120v circuit boards to work here @ 220-240v. AC appliances that run peripheral DC motors, etc., None of it is terribly complex, but some of it takes some thinking about.
I was chatting with some local sparkys recently and they had angst about running an earth to an old aluminium ground contact in what is a 12th century church against EU babble. Well it has stood there since the 12th century, and we were all taught that ali and copper running to ground is an earth. A few years ago we all obsessed about tags between cold and hot water pipes, and prior to that gas pipes. All to take current to earth. Those guys eventually ran into the old lightening conductors. Because despite what the EU says, nobody had died since the 12th century there.
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update
socket now working perfectly - soldered switch the CORRECT way around, eventually
THANKS to all who offered advice.
Now SC has realised I can 'wire a plug', she has uncovered two bare wires behind a painting - and wants me fit a wall light there and a fluorescent tube under the kitchen cupboards....
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So the water company have to cut a pipe out for a day.......bang there goes your earthing mechanism. No control over that whatsoever. Can't be done! I would be very surprised if it is copper past the property for 2 reasons;
You keep confusing the real earth (electric) with the practical earth (radiator with copper wire into the ground)
Copper is never used in industrial or commercial situations with high water flow as it isn't strong enough (Soft metal)
Yet it is ....
I know for 100% sure, because the city noted the misstake and have begun replacing the piping, but not yet in my city grid. When this all went down, the whole city was copper.
This ground breaker you talk of sounds like an RCD, we pay $120 here for a board with 2 of them in that can link to each circuit breaker or pay $300 for a board full of them for each circuit.
Material isn't the big pricing, its getting it all through the pipes in the house that have not been put according to regulations/rules. They took the shortest path basicly instead of following the wall-drawings of the nen-1010 regulations. Its always a surprise hanging a painting or other things that require drilling in walls :GRRRR: If I have the time/money I might hire someone with infrared equipment to re-map my house walls so I know where all stuff goes.
3000W/220 = 13.63 Amps
Sounds about right. ~14 amps sustained current or 16A+ peak current will break the circuit.
I highly doubt it's copper. I've seen it here in Amsterdam. The big central ones (30 or so cm in diameter) in the ground are steel or iron (for sure no copper at least) welded together. They are inside an outer shell of plastic or similar material shielding it from outside influences.
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update
socket now working perfectly - soldered switch the CORRECT way around, eventually
THANKS to all who offered advice.
Now SC has realised I can 'wire a plug', she has uncovered two bare wires behind a painting - and wants me fit a wall light there and a fluorescent tube under the kitchen cupboards....
Dont fit that, there are some super LED strip lights that you can get now in Russia around our way most shops have them "leroy merlin" have them but i see the closest to you is Krasnodar
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Thanks...can you send us a photo or link to a site?)
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http://leroymerlin.ru/
Its where we get lots of things for the house matey, bit like a big B&Q if you like and its French so you get a lot of Euro standard stuff there
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So the water company have to cut a pipe out for a day.......bang there goes your earthing mechanism. No control over that whatsoever. Can't be done! I would be very surprised if it is copper past the property for 2 reasons;
You keep confusing the real earth (electric) with the practical earth (radiator with copper wire into the ground)
Copper is never used in industrial or commercial situations with high water flow as it isn't strong enough (Soft metal)
Yet it is ....
I know for 100% sure, because the city noted the misstake and have begun replacing the piping, but not yet in my city grid. When this all went down, the whole city was copper.
This ground breaker you talk of sounds like an RCD, we pay $120 here for a board with 2 of them in that can link to each circuit breaker or pay $300 for a board full of them for each circuit.
Material isn't the big pricing, its getting it all through the pipes in the house that have not been put according to regulations/rules. They took the shortest path basicly instead of following the wall-drawings of the nen-1010 regulations. Its always a surprise hanging a painting or other things that require drilling in walls :GRRRR: If I have the time/money I might hire someone with infrared equipment to re-map my house walls so I know where all stuff goes.
3000W/220 = 13.63 Amps
Sounds about right. ~14 amps sustained current or 16A+ peak current will break the circuit.
Mark is this another wriggle??
We both agree electricity kills so why do you continue to advise when you don't know really what you're on about?
All pipes under the ground are weak expensive copper, really? You're fellow Dutchman has already confirmed your wrong.
It is you that doesn't understand the earthing I keep mentioning. I'll recap for you. Had your radiator been connected to the houses earthing system you wouldn't have had a shock due to the lack of a potential difference. :'( Keep up Mark, the city plumbing is irrelevant but again you're guessing what you don't know.
You keep talking jargon and I'll keep telling you're wrong.
If you keep digging you'll be in South Africa in no time.
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http://leroymerlin.ru/
Its where we get lots of things for the house matey, bit like a big B&Q if you like and its French so you get a lot of Euro standard stuff there
'thanks' ... now SC is waiting for a 'bad day' -weatherwise - as an excuse to go to K'dar :chuckle:
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http://leroymerlin.ru/
Its where we get lots of things for the house matey, bit like a big B&Q if you like and its French so you get a lot of Euro standard stuff there
'thanks' ... now SC is waiting for a 'bad day' -weatherwise - as an excuse to go to K'dar :chuckle:
Sounds like you're going to be a busy guy now she's discovered your DIY skills.
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'Skills' !)) I do not have the tools that I have in the UK..Taking much longer..
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'Skills' !)) I do not have the tools that I have in the UK..Taking much longer..
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A kitchen knife, sharp teeth (or tooth) and some pliers can go a long way. Bear grills style!
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)) the main issue is SC's 'perforator'.... Drill.. mine goes through concrete like a hot knife through butter...used to drill re enforced concrete on Cyprus roofs... this device weighs as much as a travel hairdrier ))
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I highly doubt it's copper. I've seen it here in Amsterdam. The big central ones (30 or so cm in diameter) in the ground are steel or iron (for sure no copper at least) welded together. They are inside an outer shell of plastic or similar material shielding it from outside influences.
You do realise, Almere has "Stadsverwarming" right? its a whole different beast than cold-water piping.
There's also a reason everyone complains about pricing of the thing!
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Green/Yellow -> Earth fault protector wire, usually only attached in 'wet' rooms like bathroom, toilet, outside, etc.
Mark.
You are joking, right?
Nope, they changed that law only in 1997 I found out. Houses built before that (including my own) have only live/return wires in rooms like the living room, bedroom, etc.
Good thing too, if your earth-connection leaks too much you might get an earth-loop which can shock you hard, thats why initially they didn't do this. However as double-insulation in equipment became more common, nowadays it makes more sense to make all sockets earth-protected.
I once noted 100V difference between the heating-radiator and the earth-wire of my computer. I found it first without a volt-meter using my knee :-[
Err nope, the whole point of double insulation is that it doesn't require earthing.
As for your 100V difference that just indicates very poor earthing arrangements.
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The 100v diference you encountered is known as a 'potential difference' (voltage difference) and it occurred because the lack of extraneous bonding as mentioned by Michaeldunha. Connect all metal items to the earthing system and they are all at the same potential then so there isn't a 100v potential difference which you would conduct should you close the circuit.
My radiator isn't connected to any earth-wire, it is connected to the real ground under my home. As its miles and miles of copper conducting pipes its bound to have better grounding than any earth-fault-wire.
The Voltage difference between my earth-wire and my radiator was 100V real voltage (not inductive load).
Since the skin is (dry) usually very high ohms, the current wasn't high enough to close the circuit breaker and shut off the power.
Gave me a nice shock though!
Thats why the law in NL was different before 1997, to prevent these kinds of situations. Had my computer used a non-grounded connection, the ground-loop would have been left open on the computers side, hence no shock.
No you got a shock because it sounds like your computer wasn't connected to earth.
By their very nature computers leak electricity to earth because filters are connected L-E & N-E that's why special rules apply to circuits with a high number of them connected.
Anything over 30mA and your probably be killed, so yes you'll be toast long before any MCB trips.
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Advanced concepts? Really? Miles of conducting pipe? You can verify it's miles of conducting pipe?
Easily, many miles.... a whole city grid of conducting pipes in fact. There are about 1200 streets across 20 miles of city, all of the houses on the streets are connected by the same piping, all of them 1-solid-block of conductors touching the mass of the earth.
I'm still concerned that you have a potential difference of 100 volts across your earth cable/radiator. It's not right Mark.
Tell me something I don't know :laugh:
If it was under fault conditions then it should have been at 50volts or less and it should have ruptured before you had the chance to get your volt meter out. Sounds like you have some dodgy wiring in your house and a serious lack of Extraneous bonding. Get it fixed, it could kill!
I have had it fixed, by removing the earth-connection from the room, as it is the easiest solution.
Now my house is in pre-1997 condition again, as it was when it was built in 1972.
The ground-breaker still only protects from live -> ground leaks, not ground->ground differences.
Nope all you've is created a situation where there is potential for to receive a fatal electric shock.
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Green/Yellow -> Earth fault protector wire, usually only attached in 'wet' rooms like bathroom, toilet, outside, etc.
Mark.
You are joking, right?
Nope, they changed that law only in 1997 I found out. Houses built before that (including my own) have only live/return wires in rooms like the living room, bedroom, etc.
Good thing too, if your earth-connection leaks too much you might get an earth-loop which can shock you hard, thats why initially they didn't do this. However as double-insulation in equipment became more common, nowadays it makes more sense to make all sockets earth-protected.
I once noted 100V difference between the heating-radiator and the earth-wire of my computer. I found it first without a volt-meter using my knee :-[
Err nope, the whole point of double insulation is that it doesn't require earthing.
As for your 100V difference that just indicates very poor earthing arrangements.
Yep
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Advanced concepts? Really? Miles of conducting pipe? You can verify it's miles of conducting pipe?
Easily, many miles.... a whole city grid of conducting pipes in fact. There are about 1200 streets across 20 miles of city, all of the houses on the streets are connected by the same piping, all of them 1-solid-block of conductors touching the mass of the earth.
I'm still concerned that you have a potential difference of 100 volts across your earth cable/radiator. It's not right Mark.
Tell me something I don't know :laugh:
If it was under fault conditions then it should have been at 50volts or less and it should have ruptured before you had the chance to get your volt meter out. Sounds like you have some dodgy wiring in your house and a serious lack of Extraneous bonding. Get it fixed, it could kill!
I have had it fixed, by removing the earth-connection from the room, as it is the easiest solution.
Now my house is in pre-1997 condition again, as it was when it was built in 1972.
The ground-breaker still only protects from live -> ground leaks, not ground->ground differences.
Nope all you've is created a situation where there is potential for to receive a fatal electric shock.
Exactly that Michael!
Imagine you put a metal radiant plug in heater in the front room in winter (e.g as your heating system has packed up and you're really cold) and you have no return earth as you've foolishly removed it.
One of your live conductors touches the chassis which is metal and earthed internally but as there is no earth connection back to the transformer it doesn't rupture and as soon as somebody touches the metal surface they're in for a big surprise and potentially dead.
Mark I hope you're able to get you're head around this before you give anyone else inaccurate and dangerous advice. Ive no doubt you have the best intentions but your advice will kill somebody. Maybe in IT if you cock up there will be downtime, lost clients or contracts. You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
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Advanced concepts? Really? Miles of conducting pipe? You can verify it's miles of conducting pipe?
Easily, many miles.... a whole city grid of conducting pipes in fact. There are about 1200 streets across 20 miles of city, all of the houses on the streets are connected by the same piping, all of them 1-solid-block of conductors touching the mass of the earth.
I'm still concerned that you have a potential difference of 100 volts across your earth cable/radiator. It's not right Mark.
Tell me something I don't know :laugh:
If it was under fault conditions then it should have been at 50volts or less and it should have ruptured before you had the chance to get your volt meter out. Sounds like you have some dodgy wiring in your house and a serious lack of Extraneous bonding. Get it fixed, it could kill!
I have had it fixed, by removing the earth-connection from the room, as it is the easiest solution.
Now my house is in pre-1997 condition again, as it was when it was built in 1972.
The ground-breaker still only protects from live -> ground leaks, not ground->ground differences.
Nope all you've is created a situation where there is potential for to receive a fatal electric shock.
Exactly that Michael!
Imagine you put a metal radiant plug in heater in the front room in winter (e.g as your heating system has packed up and you're really cold) and you have no return earth as you've foolishly removed it.
One of your live conductors touches the chassis which is metal and earthed internally but as there is no earth connection back to the transformer it doesn't rupture and as soon as somebody touches the metal surface they're in for a big surprise and potentially dead.
Mark I hope you're able to get you're head around this before you give anyone else inaccurate and dangerous advice. Ive no doubt you have the best intentions but your advice will kill somebody. Maybe in IT if you cock up there will be downtime, lost clients or contracts. You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
In a nutshell yes he's removed the part of the circuit designed to disconnect the electricity if an appliance developed a fault causing exposed metal parts to become live.
As soon as anyone touches these, they will become part of the electrical fault circuit.
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You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
Aha so now you agree with me about low voltages. :rolleye0009:
Also, I wasn't offering this up as advice, just as a personal experience of what happened to my electricity in NL.
Double insulated still require good grounding, but its less lethal if its absent.
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Nope all you've is created a situation where there is potential for to receive a fatal electric shock.
That situation was already present. I just removed one of the faulty wires from it, to make sure nobody who saw it thought it was actually grounded when it wasn't.
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I bought one of those Chinese fly killing racquets the other day - you know the ones - electrically operated, when a fly touches the wire mesh they go bbzzztttt and die.
More exercise and more productive than playing Wii Tennis. ;)
Markje, don't touch your computer, you'll make like a dying fly - bbzzztttt! :rolleye0009:
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Markje, don't touch your computer, you'll make like a dying fly - bbzzztttt! :rolleye0009:
No worries Andrew, I replaced the situation long ago. I don't know how people think a story from pre-1997 (as mentioned multiple times) still exist today (other than no faulty wire that causes the bzzzzzt part).
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Hmm, I just thought of something.
Earth goes straight back to the electric company, without it being metered (live 100v line). My heating system is the 0-return line.
Free electricity, I just need a convertor from 100 ~ 220V :ROFL:
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bbzzztttt!
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bbzzztttt!
Have fun with the racket, andrew :)
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Nope all you've is created a situation where there is potential for to receive a fatal electric shock.
Image to clarify, I hope you will agree with me, that the new situation is less dangerous than the old situation.
The computer is doubly insulated.
I also put the ideal situation on the right, but since everyone agrees on that one , its not really a biggy.
(http://cloud.oliekoets.nl/index.php/s/8b2PJ204pvVI4pI/download)
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You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
Aha so now you agree with me about low voltages. :rolleye0009:
Also, I wasn't offering this up as advice, just as a personal experience of what happened to my electricity in NL.
Double insulated still require good grounding, but its less lethal if its absent.
Double insulated equipment requires grounding? Does not the absence of an earth wire give you a clue?
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Nope all you've is created a situation where there is potential for to receive a fatal electric shock.
Image to clarify, I hope you will agree with me, that the new situation is less dangerous than the old situation.
The computer is doubly insulated.
I also put the ideal situation on the right, but since everyone agrees on that one , its not really a biggy.
(http://cloud.oliekoets.nl/index.php/s/8b2PJ204pvVI4pI/download)
Do you even know how to identify class 2 equipment/double insulated?
As I've previously said computers are fitted with voltage filters L-E and N-E
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You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
Aha so now you agree with me about low voltages. :rolleye0009:
Also, I wasn't offering this up as advice, just as a personal experience of what happened to my electricity in NL.
Double insulated still require good grounding, but its less lethal if its absent.
Low voltage = 50v>1000volt Ac. What do we agree on exactly?
Double insulated doesn't require any earth hence why it's double insulatied and has no earth pin. Even our 3 pin plugs will have a plastic earth pin for a double insulated appliance.
Keep up the howlers Markje they're funny!
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You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
Aha so now you agree with me about low voltages. :rolleye0009:
Also, I wasn't offering this up as advice, just as a personal experience of what happened to my electricity in NL.
Double insulated still require good grounding, but its less lethal if its absent.
Double insulated equipment requires grounding? Does not the absence of an earth wire give you a clue?
So, my computer is lethal without grounding, but now you deny needing it, make up your mind :drunk:
Mark.
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You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
Aha so now you agree with me about low voltages. :rolleye0009:
Also, I wasn't offering this up as advice, just as a personal experience of what happened to my electricity in NL.
Double insulated still require good grounding, but its less lethal if its absent.
Double insulated equipment requires grounding? Does not the absence of an earth wire give you a clue?
4 pages ago he said nobody connects the earth.
There is no telling the man.
Filters? Class 2 refers to the insulation and wiring.
They really should close the coffee shops down.
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You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
Aha so now you agree with me about low voltages. :rolleye0009:
Also, I wasn't offering this up as advice, just as a personal experience of what happened to my electricity in NL.
Double insulated still require good grounding, but its less lethal if its absent.
Double insulated equipment requires grounding? Does not the absence of an earth wire give you a clue?
So, my computer is lethal without grounding, but now you deny needing it, make up your mind :drunk:
Mark.
Computers arent double insulated you numpty. They have earth leakage so require an earth.
Ffs you're painful and should just admit you don't know a fraction of what you think you do.
Free electricity.. .it's fromantic your supply so it's been past your meter.
Please keep up.
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Do you even know how to identify class 2 equipment/double insulated?
As I've previously said computers are fitted with voltage filters L-E and N-E
Keep on bashing, i wont respond anymore. The picture says it all.
Now you question my knowledge of identifying double-insulated equipment.
Its easy, it says so on the appliance sticker on the back with a double square .
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Do you even know how to identify class 2 equipment/double insulated?
As I've previously said computers are fitted with voltage filters L-E and N-E
Keep on bashing, i wont respond anymore. The picture says it all.
Now you question my knowledge of identifying double-insulated equipment.
Its easy, it says so on the appliance sticker on the back with a double square .
So specialist It earthing arrangements exist to deal with earth leakage for what exact reason?
Go down to B&Q this weekend and tell a few confused looking guys what you know. Odds are you'll be reading about some if not all of them again.
It's like LFTS.
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4 pages ago he said nobody connects the earth.
Pre-1997, do keep up.
(http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/298x219x2/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg)
Dutch houses are full of them, please tell me where to connect the ground-wire.
Mark.
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So specialist It earthing arrangements exist to deal with earth leakage for what exact reason?
Go down to B&Q this weekend and tell a few confused looking guys what you know. Odds are you'll be reading about some if not all of them again.
It's like LFTS.
You just enjoy a good discussion, right ?
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4 pages ago he said nobody connects the earth.
Pre-1997, do keep up.
(http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/298x219x2/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg)
Dutch houses are full of them, please tell me where to connect the ground-wire.
Mark.
It's 2015....keep up.
So where did you remove the earth connection from then?
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4 pages ago he said nobody connects the earth.
Pre-1997, do keep up.
(http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/298x219x2/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg)
Dutch houses are full of them, please tell me where to connect the ground-wire.
Mark.
As well as type F sockets. If you plug an item that needs an earth into one of those type c sockets you are as previously stated french connectioned.
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Do you even know how to identify class 2 equipment/double insulated?
As I've previously said computers are fitted with voltage filters L-E and N-E
Keep on bashing, i wont respond anymore. The picture says it all.
Now you question my knowledge of identifying double-insulated equipment.
Its easy, it says so on the appliance sticker on the back with a double square .
The picture? That was not an electrical diagram, you either have a live, neutral and earth wire going to your computer or not.
If it's a laptop then only a low voltage dc supply actually is supplied via a transformer.
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Computers arent double insulated you numpty. They have earth leakage so require an earth.
Mine is, but I guess you couldn't have known that, I agree that standard computers are not.
Ffs you're painful and should just admit you don't know a fraction of what you think you do.
Assuming is the mother of all :censored: ups. You just don't have all the facts, therefore you do not know what I do or do not know.
Free electricity.. .it's fromantic your supply so it's been past your meter.
It was a joke, I guess the icon wasn't clear enough on that. I will remark future attempts as humour like this: (joke!).
Please keep up.
No thanks, I have other things todo than keep defending my knowledge against electricians who think they know it all.
And yes, I know just as much as I need to about electric currents, more so than normal people , and much more than computer-geeks in general.
I might not know all the building-codes, etc. by heart, but I could look them up if I thought it would help this discussion, but you seem pre-destined not to believe me, so i wont bother.
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4 pages ago he said nobody connects the earth.
Pre-1997, do keep up.
(http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/298x219x2/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg)
Dutch houses are full of them, please tell me where to connect the ground-wire.
Mark.
Yes but they will say for use with class 2 equipment ONLY
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Update: some desktops have earth connections some don't.
Here it's standard practice, considering the casings are typically metal. Mine is anyway, excuse me if plastic is the norm I'm not into IT but most of the computers chassis are metal afaik
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Computers arent double insulated you numpty. They have earth leakage so require an earth.
Mine is, but I guess you couldn't have known that, I agree that standard computers are not.
Ffs you're painful and should just admit you don't know a fraction of what you think you do.
Assuming is the mother of all :censored: ups. You just don't have all the facts, therefore you do not know what I do or do not know.
Free electricity.. .it's fromantic your supply so it's been past your meter.
It was a joke, I guess the icon wasn't clear enough on that. I will remark future attempts as humour like this: (joke!).
Please keep up.
No thanks, I have other things todo than keep defending my knowledge against electricians who think they know it all.
And yes, I know just as much as I need to about electric currents, more so than normal people , and much more than computer-geeks in general.
I might not know all the building-codes, etc. by heart, but I could look them up if I thought it would help this discussion, but you seem pre-destined not to believe me, so i wont bother.
So you're admitting you're not electrically qualified in any way?
You don't even understand earthing which is 101. You keep beating that chest and shouting about physics knowledge.
The ironic thing is naff all has changed regarding the principles of electricity so it doesn't matter how long ago you studied you should be aware.
But since you're too shy to explain your level of qualification I'm left to Assume and from what you write and how far off the mark you are ($1000s to fit an RCD) I'm assuming it was basic and a long time ago.
I'll be advising Andrewfi on the economy next week, I've been to the bank you know?
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Who mentioned building codes? Manny? Sparky? Chris?
Everyone but me then :'(
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You get this wrong and people die, even at low voltages!!
Aha so now you agree with me about low voltages. :rolleye0009:
Also, I wasn't offering this up as advice, just as a personal experience of what happened to my electricity in NL.
Double insulated still require good grounding, but its less lethal if its absent.
Double insulated equipment requires grounding? Does not the absence of an earth wire give you a clue?
4 pages ago he said nobody connects the earth.
There is no telling the man.
Filters? Class 2 refers to the insulation and wiring.
They really should close the coffee shops down.
Yes filters in order to filter out voltage spikes, again this is something that needs to be taken into consideration when designing an installation containing large amounts of IT equipment.
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So you're admitting you're not electrically qualified in any way?
Now you didn't hear me say that. Don't put words in my mouth.
You don't even understand earthing which is 101. You keep beating that chest and shouting about physics knowledge.
You don't understand the real life situation but try to apply generic rules to whats here in my house . choosing to disbelieve me. Come visit, check it out yourself if it bothers you that much.
The ironic thing is naff all has changed regarding the principles of electricity so it doesn't matter how long ago you studied you should be aware.
But since you're too shy to explain your level of qualification I'm left to Assume and from what you write and how far off the mark you are ($1000s to fit an RCD) I'm assuming it was basic and a long time ago.
I won't put it on display either, since you will disbelieve that too :smokin: $1000 to fit a ground-breaker is about right. It involves more than buying a piece of machinery in my closet which doesn't cost $1000, it also involves pushing all the earth wires through the house, modifying sockets ,etc. I am sure if you are a qualified electrician your bill will not be $150. Electricians usually cost about $60/hour, they will be busy at least 1 day, = 480 + machine $150 + wiring ($50?), Thats close to 700 euro from the top of my head, so I made a safe bet at 1000.
I'll be advising Andrewfi on the economy next week, I've been to the bank you know?
Good for you. I hope he listens.
Mark.
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Update: some desktops have earth connections some don't.
Here it's standard practice, considering the casings are typically metal. Mine is anyway, excuse me if plastic is the norm I'm not into IT but most of the computers chassis are metal afaik
Mine is a custom built 100% glass case , really pretty.
The one I had when I got that shock of 100V was metal.
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So you're admitting you're not electrically qualified in any way?
Now you didn't hear me say that. Don't put words in my mouth.
You don't even understand earthing which is 101. You keep beating that chest and shouting about physics knowledge.
You don't understand the real life situation but try to apply generic rules to whats here in my house . choosing to disbelieve me. Come visit, check it out yourself if it bothers you that much.
The ironic thing is naff all has changed regarding the principles of electricity so it doesn't matter how long ago you studied you should be aware.
But since you're too shy to explain your level of qualification I'm left to Assume and from what you write and how far off the mark you are ($1000s to fit an RCD) I'm assuming it was basic and a long time ago.
I won't put it on display either, since you will disbelieve that too :smokin: $1000 to fit a ground-breaker is about right. It involves more than buying a piece of machinery in my closet which doesn't cost $1000, it also involves pushing all the earth wires through the house, modifying sockets ,etc. I am sure if you are a qualified electrician your bill will not be $150. Electricians usually cost about $60/hour, they will be busy at least 1 day, = 480 + machine $150 + wiring ($50?), Thats close to 700 euro from the top of my head, so I made a safe bet at 1000.
I'll be advising Andrewfi on the economy next week, I've been to the bank you know?
Good for you. I hope he listens.
Mark.
So dutch houses have no earth wires anywhere? I find that hard to believe in modern Europe unless your house is very old and outdated wiring.
Even more of a reason to have extraneous bonding on your water and gas and rad pipes connected to your main incoming earth terminal. Keep them all at the same potential.
So clarify what you did when you removed the earth connection please...
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So dutch houses have no earth wires anywhere? I find that hard to believe in modern Europe unless your house is very old and outdated wiring.
You don't read obviously, I already stated where and where not earlier.
Any house pre-1997 built, will not have earth wiring in any room except the bathroom/toilet and garden.
Since my house is built 1972, thats affirmative for me.
Even more of a reason to have extraneous bonding on your water and gas and rad pipes connected to your main incoming earth terminal. Keep them all at the same potential.
That I can agree with.
So clarify what you did when you removed the earth connection please...
I removed a potentially dangerous situation from becoming a hazard by removing a live wire of 100V (coded green-yellow & attached to the ground-pins of the wallsockets, to make stuff even worse!) which touches almost all metal conductive housing of appliances.
I will still need to replace it, with a proper grounded earth wire from my electric cabinet in the hallway.
See my self-made drawing earlier for further clarification.
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Markje: We got stadsverwarming too here in our mid 70's complex. City was busy replacing some parts a couple of months ago, so I can tell you it was not copper ;-) It was brown rust on it, no green stuff you'd commonly see as oxidation on copper ;-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
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Markje: We got stadsverwarming too here in our mid 70's complex. City was busy replacing some parts a couple of months ago, so I can tell you it was not copper ;-) It was brown rust on it, no green stuff you'd commonly see as oxidation on copper ;-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
I have decided not to care if it is copper or not, they're both excellent conductors.
I am also not caring enough to dig up the street to find out :P All I know it will be copper from my house until it hits the city-street because that part was dug up when they made my 'glasvezel' internet :)
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On our grounding/earthing situation in our mid 70's apartment complex: There's a thick metal wire (8mm diameter or more) running through all floors and each "main box" is connected to it. Then from the main box you have several groups (originally 4 in my case) of 10/16A fuses running, by default only the "kitchen" and "bathroom" group had a yellow/green wire, which was connected to the thick metal wire indirectly via the main box. I "upgraded" my "main box" to a modern one with more groups and no more fuses that need replacing. Re-ran all wiring because the sockets were at 105cm and moved them to 30cm now and right away added a green/yellow wire which is properly connected in the main box. So now I can ground equipment that has a connected grounding pin (pc with metal case, Panasonic plasma, AV receiver etc). I don't know the jargon in English so I kept it in laymans terms ;-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
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I'm googling 'electricity' so I can join in, give me 10 minutes....
.
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On our grounding/earthing situation in our mid 70's apartment complex: There's a thick metal wire (8mm diameter or more) running through all floors and each "main box" is connected to it. Then from the main box you have several groups (originally 4 in my case) of 10/16A fuses running, by default only the "kitchen" and "bathroom" group had a yellow/green wire, which was connected to the thick metal wire indirectly via the main box. I "upgraded" my "main box" to a modern one with more groups and no more fuses that need replacing. Re-ran all wiring because the sockets were at 105cm and moved them to 30cm now and right away added a green/yellow wire which is properly connected in the main box. So now I can ground equipment that has a connected grounding pin (pc with metal case, Panasonic plasma, AV receiver etc). I don't know the jargon in English so I kept it in laymans terms ;-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
So you updated the work that I still need doing. And from the sound of it, your apartment was built with the same code as my house. Without proper grounding.
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On our grounding/earthing situation in our mid 70's apartment complex: There's a thick metal wire (8mm diameter or more) running through all floors and each "main box" is connected to it. Then from the main box you have several groups (originally 4 in my case) of 10/16A fuses running, by default only the "kitchen" and "bathroom" group had a yellow/green wire, which was connected to the thick metal wire indirectly via the main box. I "upgraded" my "main box" to a modern one with more groups and no more fuses that need replacing. Re-ran all wiring because the sockets were at 105cm and moved them to 30cm now and right away added a green/yellow wire which is properly connected in the main box. So now I can ground equipment that has a connected grounding pin (pc with metal case, Panasonic plasma, AV receiver etc). I don't know the jargon in English so I kept it in laymans terms ;-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
So you updated the work that I still need doing. And from the sound of it, your apartment was built with the same code as my house. Without proper grounding.
We have proper grounding ;) It's a thick wire running from ground floor up till 10th floor. Quite sure it's earthed somewhere on the ground floor but never cared to verify personally :P
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We have proper grounding ;) It's a thick wire running from ground floor up till 10th floor. Quite sure it's earthed somewhere on the ground floor but never cared to verify personally :P
I meant 2 rooms had proper grounding before your upgrades. Sorry for the confusion.
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We have proper grounding ;) It's a thick wire running from ground floor up till 10th floor. Quite sure it's earthed somewhere on the ground floor but never cared to verify personally :P
I meant 2 rooms had proper grounding before your upgrades. Sorry for the confusion.
Yeah and now all :) Anyway needed to rewire 80% so did all ;) Lost 2 sockets due to PVC being broken when they pored the concrete during build but well, other than that, all fine and working :) Added TV cable, speaker cable, usb charging sockets etc as well ;)
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Our old main box and the earthing/grounding wire :)
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Our old main box and the earthing/grounding wire :)
I had to replace one like this (though a little larger) in my house. The main part of my house was built in 1947.
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Moby, whatever you do don't start a topic on how to re-pipe or plumb in a gas fire in Russia, for gawds sake! :chuckle:
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Moby, whatever you do don't start a topic on how to re-pipe or plumb in a gas fire in Russia, for gawds sake! :chuckle:
The last wont be a problem, I don't have any gas in my house ;-)
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Moby, whatever you do don't start a topic on how to re-pipe or plumb in a gas fire in Russia, for gawds sake! :chuckle:
Hi Chris!
I had NO idea what I'd be starting...on here and on the 'ooooh he can do DIY' front..... today, it is more trunking of electric cables that I ran when adding sockets.
Have my UK TV feed and can listen to radio 5 live / Four, as I work... Madam wants me to install air con, next .. no prob - except for being a few floors up :chuckle:
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Moby, whatever you do don't start a topic on how to re-pipe or plumb in a gas fire in Russia, for gawds sake! :chuckle:
I best not be posting pictures of building Extensions in Russia :hidechair:
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I best not be posting pictures of building Extensions in Russia :hidechair:
I think it would be interesting .. Are there the RU equivs of building regs, planning permission and inspections ?
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I best not be posting pictures of building Extensions in Russia :hidechair:
I think it would be interesting .. Are there the RU equivs of building regs, planning permission and inspections ?
Dont be silly this is the land of the free :chuckle:
Although we have to get plans drawn to legalise it and the gas work has to be approved and fitted by the gas company :)
But up till now we have only ever extended or renovated a property so there was already a plan in place
The next big one will be on virgin land although designated for domestic occupancy the rules may be different when build new.......we will see in the next couple of years...got to find the land yet !!
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The next big one will be on virgin land although designated for domestic occupancy the rules may be different when build new.......we will see in the next couple of years...got to find the land yet !!
UK pension on RU living costs on the cards ? :thumbsup:
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I best not be posting pictures of building Extensions in Russia :hidechair:
I think it would be interesting .. Are there the RU equivs of building regs, planning permission and inspections ?
Yes why not, it would be of interest.
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Moby, whatever you do don't start a topic on how to re-pipe or plumb in a gas fire in Russia, for gawds sake! :chuckle:
Hi Chris!
I had NO idea what I'd be starting...on here and on the 'ooooh he can do DIY' front..... today, it is more trunking of electric cables that I ran when adding sockets.
Have my UK TV feed and can listen to radio 5 live / Four, as I work... Madam wants me to install air con, next .. no prob - except for being a few floors up :chuckle:
I have seen very creative A?C installers working though windows, up high. Just don't watch them... :hidechair:
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So you're admitting you're not electrically qualified in any way?
Now you didn't hear me say that. Don't put words in my mouth.
You don't even understand earthing which is 101. You keep beating that chest and shouting about physics knowledge.
You don't understand the real life situation but try to apply generic rules to whats here in my house . choosing to disbelieve me. Come visit, check it out yourself if it bothers you that much.
Ok one is 100% clear, although you think you have an understanding of this I can promise you that you don't.
So your computer is a class 2 double insulated piece of equipment? So why would you even try to connect and earth wire to this? There is no facility to connect earth wires to such equipment.
Where did you take the earth connection from? Your sockets don't provide a facility on the front to make such a connection.
Just because they didn't have earth wires at sockets in the past doesn't mean it was ok, that's a crazy logic.
You've stated that an earth was provided in wet locations, what we would call a special location here. Ok so why were earth connections provided in these locations?
Why is it dangerous to have them in non-wet locations?
By the way the correct term that we use for these earths at sockets is the Circuit Protective Conductor (CPC) the clue is in the name.
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Ok one is 100% clear, although you think you have an understanding of this I can promise you that you don't.
I do have a very clear understanding how this is all supposed to work.
So your computer is a class 2 double insulated piece of equipment? So why would you even try to connect and earth wire to this? There is no facility to connect earth wires to such equipment.
Because if the inside of my computer somehow connects with the first protective layer, the groundbreaker will trip. And yes, the computer does facilitate an earth connection, whereas my house alas doesn't (Never did also, since the present earth grounding was completely faulty).
Where did you take the earth connection from? Your sockets don't provide a facility on the front to make such a connection.
Just because they didn't have earth wires at sockets in the past doesn't mean it was ok, that's a crazy logic.
We agree on that part.
Why is it dangerous to have them in non-wet locations?
In my house it was dangerous, as it wasn't a true earth-connection to begin with in the room with my computer. There's a 100V difference between earth and a real earth like the radiator of my heating system.
I make no claims about other houses!
By the way the correct term that we use for these earths at sockets is the Circuit Protective Conductor (CPC) the clue is in the name.
Ok..
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Ok one is 100% clear, although you think you have an understanding of this I can promise you that you don't.
+1
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Ok one is 100% clear, although you think you have an understanding of this I can promise you that you don't.
+1
I'm glad you 2 never have to do work in my house. You seem to confuse how stuff *should* work, with how stuff works in my home.
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Ok one is 100% clear, although you think you have an understanding of this I can promise you that you don't.
I do have a very clear understanding how this is all supposed to work.
So your computer is a class 2 double insulated piece of equipment? So why would you even try to connect and earth wire to this? There is no facility to connect earth wires to such equipment.
Because if the inside of my computer somehow connects with the first protective layer, the groundbreaker will trip. And yes, the computer does facilitate an earth connection, whereas my house alas doesn't (Never did also, since the present earth grounding was completely faulty).
Where did you take the earth connection from? Your sockets don't provide a facility on the front to make such a connection.
Just because they didn't have earth wires at sockets in the past doesn't mean it was ok, that's a crazy logic.
We agree on that part.
Why is it dangerous to have them in non-wet locations?
In my house it was dangerous, as it wasn't a true earth-connection to begin with in the room with my computer. There's a 100V difference between earth and a real earth like the radiator of my heating system.
I make no claims about other houses!
By the way the correct term that we use for these earths at sockets is the Circuit Protective Conductor (CPC) the clue is in the name.
Ok..
Ok one is 100% clear, although you think you have an understanding of this I can promise you that you don't.
I do have a very clear understanding how this is all supposed to work.
So your computer is a class 2 double insulated piece of equipment? So why would you even try to connect and earth wire to this? There is no facility to connect earth wires to such equipment.
Because if the inside of my computer somehow connects with the first protective layer, the groundbreaker will trip. And yes, the computer does facilitate an earth connection, whereas my house alas doesn't (Never did also, since the present earth grounding was completely faulty).
Where did you take the earth connection from? Your sockets don't provide a facility on the front to make such a connection.
Just because they didn't have earth wires at sockets in the past doesn't mean it was ok, that's a crazy logic.
We agree on that part.
Why is it dangerous to have them in non-wet locations?
In my house it was dangerous, as it wasn't a true earth-connection to begin with in the room with my computer. There's a 100V difference between earth and a real earth like the radiator of my heating system.
I make no claims about other houses!
By the way the correct term that we use for these earths at sockets is the Circuit Protective Conductor (CPC) the clue is in the name.
Ok..
First protective layer? Which will be an insulator yes...as the title tells us 'double insulated' So how the fcuk did the casing become live with 2 layers of electrical insulation? Again more DIY I suspect or no regard for regulations. The 2 layers are there so it doesn't become live and require an earth connection.
Are you following yet?
You just don't get the earthing system do you? Clearly demonstrated by you telling us it's earthed using the cities (yes 1200 streets) hot water system which you as a dwelling owner/user have ZERO control over. Is that what you want from your electrical safety system...no control? You also said it was copper which it clearly isn't but again you assumed it was and your fellow Dutch set you straight. He said it was rusty steel, which you said was an excellent conductor. Yeah the conductor of choice in low voltage systems. :'(
Earthing, which you refer to as grounding (which tells me you've studied electronics rather than electrical but again you won't say other than 'I won't waste my time arguing with electricians who think they know better') isn't about going into the ground as such even though that is what it means.
What it means in this situation is the return of a faulty current/voltage back to the centre point of the supply transformer (in the street or up the mini wooden pylon) in order to rupture a circuit breaker/protective device as quickly as possible. It doesn't mean running around the Red light district or the canals as far as possible. It's important and that's why it's there. It's installed in the hope it is rarely used.
Ground breaker... are you refering to an RCD unit? If you are then again you're wrong about needing to rewire you're circuits and your quote of $1000 of works. They are used on the Live conductors (Line & Neutral) and how they detect a leak to earth (E.g an earth fault) is by measuring an imbalance in the 2 conductors I just mentioned.
This 100volts you're talking about. If you've got that you've got major problems and they won't be sorted by removing the earth conductor, you've just covered up an even bigger issue.
If you understood earthing, bonding and equipotential/extraneous you'd get your head around this. As an Electrical engineer you should know that there should never be more than 50 volts (Touch voltage) even under fault conditions. Kirchoffs Law hasn't changed in over a century....
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Do this, it is a start Markje!
Get everything at the same potential and stop these lethal shocks!
(https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Figures/5.13b.gif)
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Do this, it is a start Markje!
Get everything at the same potential and stop these lethal shocks!
(https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Figures/5.13b.gif)
Like i said earlier, this is the preferred solution which we all agree upon.
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Ok one is 100% clear, although you think you have an understanding of this I can promise you that you don't.
+1
I'm glad you 2 never have to do work in my house. You seem to confuse how stuff *should* work, with how stuff works in my home.
From what you've told us, you're house hasn't had any electrical work for many years so perhaps you should be less selective.
Here's the $40 Ground breaker that can be fitted into other homes with other 'stuff' - You need the 1 on the left which is single phase.
(http://www.spectrose.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/RCB.jpg)
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Here's the $40 Ground breaker that can be fitted into other homes with other 'stuff' - You need the 1 on the left which is single phase.
The previous owner of my house was a huge idiot, Everytime I would like to 'fix' something, I first need to breakdown all his work and then redo it proper, Its no surprise to me that the electric system is just as big a mess as his other 'projects'.
Don't ask me about the bathtub in my bathroom :drunk: He used duct-tape to tape it on the wall and cover that up with silicone gel. And he didn't connect the sink either, it was just emptying on the floor and let the floor sinkhole take the water out of the room :drunk:
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First protective layer? Which will be an insulator yes...as the title tells us 'double insulated' So how the fcuk did the casing become live with 2 layers of electrical insulation? Again more DIY I suspect or no regard for regulations. The 2 layers are there so it doesn't become live and require an earth connection.
Are you following yet?
You arent you keep messing up "past" and "present" situation. I was sharing a (what I thought funny) anecdote about past electric problems in my house with a computer I don't even own anymore. My current computer is glass, so there's no way in hell it will ever shock me, unless it generates over 15KV, but then I have a whole new problem.
You just don't get the earthing system do you? Clearly demonstrated by you telling us it's earthed using the cities (yes 1200 streets) hot water system which you as a dwelling owner/user have ZERO control over. Is that what you want from your electrical safety system...no control? You also said it was copper which it clearly isn't but again you assumed it was and your fellow Dutch set you straight. He said it was rusty steel, which you said was an excellent conductor. Yeah the conductor of choice in low voltage systems. :'(
You seem to misstake the current situation in my house with what *I* would think correct in any case. I am only commenting on my house, not how it should be, but somehow you missed that point.
Earthing, which you refer to as grounding (which tells me you've studied electronics rather than electrical but again you won't say other than 'I won't waste my time arguing with electricians who think they know better') isn't about going into the ground as such even though that is what it means.
No, this is a typical language-barrier problem. In Dutch there is only 1 word and I had to translate it.
This 100volts you're talking about. If you've got that you've got major problems and they won't be sorted by removing the earth conductor, you've just covered up an even bigger issue.
But whilst I wait , the problem is smaller than before until I can get it fixed properly, like I also said before.
Mark.
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Here's the $40 Ground breaker that can be fitted into other homes with other 'stuff' - You need the 1 on the left which is single phase.
The previous owner of my house was a huge idiot, Everytime I would like to 'fix' something, I first need to breakdown all his work and then redo it proper, Its no surprise to me that the electric system is just as big a mess as his other 'projects'.
Don't ask me about the bathtub in my bathroom :drunk: He used duct-tape to tape it on the wall and cover that up with silicone gel. And he didn't connect the sink either, it was just emptying on the floor and let the floor sinkhole take the water out of the room :drunk:
You need a specialist Markje. There's only 1 man for the job
(http://cdn.itv.com/uploads/editor/medium_H03vR04C6TBlgWAMTWV0L-_0j4PXmKn-JYaNijXMCH0.jpg)
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But you need not be scared Markje. He brings a rather tasty sidekick with him.
(https://whatshotwhatstrendingnow.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/page-3-girl-melinda-messenger-shows-boobs-cleavage-in-sexy-red-underwear-the-jump-competitior-2014.jpg)
Photo might still be an old 1 from her glamour modelling days but I think she's got better with age.
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The previous owner of my house was a huge idiot, Everytime I would like to 'fix' something, I first need to breakdown all his work and then redo it proper, Its no surprise to me that the electric system is just as big a mess as his other 'projects'.
We had the same in our house. He had rewired the sockets himself, with a bunch of dodgy spurs and JB's rather than a proper ring. There were random live wires chopped off under floors. It used to trip often. It wasn't rocket science to put right, but it was time consuming. Then I discovered the lighting was still on rubber. Crusty, half fried rubber at that. I had a spark redo all the lights all through the house. His doubling up of two bits of 2.5 to feed an oven and earths that went nowhere were a joy to behold.
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Earthing, which you refer to as grounding (which tells me you've studied electronics rather than electrical but again you won't say other than 'I won't waste my time arguing with electricians who think they know better') isn't about going into the ground as such even though that is what it means.
No, this is a typical language-barrier problem. In Dutch there is only 1 word and I had to translate it.
The same in my language. :biggrin:
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I added a 220v outlet for my clothes dryer four years ago and I'm still alive and the house hasn't burned down. :-))) In my first marriage we bought a huge Victorian that had wires and pipes that led to nowhere, Manny. It's crazy how they tried to fit things into those old big houses. As part of closing we had the seller rip out and replace all that crap. It was a buyers market :-)
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I added a 220v outlet for my clothes dryer four years ago and I'm still alive and the house hasn't burned down. :-))) In my first marriage we bought a huge Victorian that had wires and pipes that led to nowhere, Manny. It's crazy how they tried to fit things into those old big houses. As part of closing we had the seller rip out and replace all that crap. It was a buyers market :-)
I heard of 220v outlets in the US before, but I think they are not common? What were they typically used for?
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I added a 220v outlet for my clothes dryer four years ago and I'm still alive and the house hasn't burned down. :-))) In my first marriage we bought a huge Victorian that had wires and pipes that led to nowhere, Manny. It's crazy how they tried to fit things into those old big houses. As part of closing we had the seller rip out and replace all that crap. It was a buyers market :-)
I heard of 220v outlets in the US before, but I think they are not common? What were they typically used for?
Clothes dryers, Electric Stoves (Ovens). Water Heaters and Central Air Conditioning have 220V direct lines (no outlet).
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I added a 220v outlet for my clothes dryer four years ago and I'm still alive and the house hasn't burned down. :-))) In my first marriage we bought a huge Victorian that had wires and pipes that led to nowhere, Manny. It's crazy how they tried to fit things into those old big houses. As part of closing we had the seller rip out and replace all that crap. It was a buyers market :-)
I heard of 220v outlets in the US before, but I think they are not common? What were they typically used for?
Clothes dryers, Electric Stoves (Ovens). Water Heaters and Central Air Conditioning have 220V direct lines (no outlet).
Is that pretty universal or just in older houses?
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I added a 220v outlet for my clothes dryer four years ago and I'm still alive and the house hasn't burned down. :-))) In my first marriage we bought a huge Victorian that had wires and pipes that led to nowhere, Manny. It's crazy how they tried to fit things into those old big houses. As part of closing we had the seller rip out and replace all that crap. It was a buyers market :-)
I heard of 220v outlets in the US before, but I think they are not common? What were they typically used for?
Clothes dryers, Electric Stoves (Ovens). Water Heaters and Central Air Conditioning have 220V direct lines (no outlet).
Is that pretty universal or just in older houses?
Universal, as far as I know. Washing machines, home fridges and other appliances are 110V.
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I added a 220v outlet for my clothes dryer four years ago and I'm still alive and the house hasn't burned down. :-))) In my first marriage we bought a huge Victorian that had wires and pipes that led to nowhere, Manny. It's crazy how they tried to fit things into those old big houses. As part of closing we had the seller rip out and replace all that crap. It was a buyers market :-)
I heard of 220v outlets in the US before, but I think they are not common? What were they typically used for?
Clothes dryers, Electric Stoves (Ovens). Water Heaters and Central Air Conditioning have 220V direct lines (no outlet).
Is that pretty universal or just in older houses?
Universal, as far as I know. Washing machines, home fridges and other appliances are 110V.
Might be similar to the appliances (induction stove for example) we have here. Some require 380V if I recall correctly and they use 2x 220V for that ;-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
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The Yanks typically have centre tapped transformers which allows 110/240ish from the same supply. All those 2 pin pronged plug sockets run at half the Voltage and the power thirsty appliances such as ovens (and generally items that produce heat) run at the higher voltage.
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Universal, as far as I know. Washing machines, home fridges and other appliances are 110V.
Might be similar to the appliances (induction stove for example) we have here. Some require 380V if I recall correctly and they use 2x 220V for that ;-)
-- Sent from my TouchPad Go using Communities
The 380/400v generally requires a 3 phase supply which is uncommon in most domestic properties Some countries such as Switzerland do differ. You may have 3 phase in your home in NL?
In a situation where you have 2 terminals in a hob or oven but a single phase supply typically the manufacturer will provide a link piece of copper to join them up so they run off your 220/240 supply.
This allows the manufacturer to produce 1 unit for sale across all of Europe.
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11 pages when all you had to do is ask the "old" retired gent in the complex (or nearby) to do it for 3-500 rubles.
I tried wiring some new switches my landlord gave me to replace the old ones only to find that the switches were different than the ones I was replacing (thought i'd just put them in simply by duplicating the wiring process :chuckle:).
After a few failed attempts, and not wanting to risk bodily harm :), I called a pensioner I had met shortly after I moved into my complex. Not only did he charge me just 300 ru., he enjoyed having something to do and feeling useful, and having someone to talk to, not to mention his feeling of superiority over "helpless" me :laugh:.
Even when I have simple jobs around the flat that I can easily handle, I'll called him to take care of it. At his pension, his fee and age, it's a win-win all around for all concerned.
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11 pages when all you had to do is ask the "old" retired gent in the complex (or nearby) to do it for 3-500 rubles.
+100
That's what i used to do :)
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11 pages when all you had to do is ask the "old" retired gent in the complex (or nearby) to do it for 3-500 rubles.
I tried wiring some new switches my landlord gave me to replace the old ones only to find that the switches were different than the ones I was replacing (thought i'd just put them in simply by duplicating the wiring process :chuckle:).
After a few failed attempts, and not wanting to risk bodily harm :), I called a pensioner I had met shortly after I moved into my complex. Not only did he charge me just 300 ru., he enjoyed having something to do and feeling useful, and having someone to talk to, not to mention his feeling of superiority over "helpless" me :laugh:.
Even when I have simple jobs around the flat that I can easily handle, I'll called him to take care of it. At his pension, his fee and age, it's a win-win all around for all concerned.
Seeing the quality of work from the "locals", I prefer them not to touch things that concerns my safety ;) First hand experience at my MIL: Cable was split and twisted together, insulated with Tesa to make a branch. Connecting a too powerful device could easily lead to a short circuit and fire. No thanks ;) Other experience was floor heating which should be connected in parallel according tot the instructions, however the helpful neighbor thought that wasn't necessary. I rewired it properly after he was gone :P
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Never had problem in 11 years, even at first when the guys I called (masters) would show up drunk. The pensioners that help maintain buildings here are well versed in plumbing, electrical, etc., IMO, and are often asked for assistance by most of the building tenants. I'm not talking about pulling some "old" guy out of his daily slumber, or the "helpful" neighbor.
Your situation seemed to call for a more experienced person.
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It seems the situation is the same here, in the Stans. Russian masters do all the wiring, and it is poorly done. The floor main switch room is a real mess, and only one breaker is used for the whole flat. It would probably never trip, in case of a short or fire. Earth protection is inexistent, and the electricians do not understand it anyway. :'(
I had to ground a few appliances myself, so that it got done.