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Information & Chat => News & Political Discussion => Topic started by: Manny on March 09, 2022, 08:20:58 AM

Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 09, 2022, 08:20:58 AM
As of now, it appears that the president is willing to discuss all of the points the Russians are pushing with the exception of denazification - which from Zelenskiys point of view is probably a death warrant. Is it one or two of the original negotiating team who are now dead with a bullet in the head?

This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I did see on Twitter the other day that one of the negotiating team had been threatened and then killed, I didn't post it as I wasn't terribly sure of the source (an example to Contrarian and Tex, but I digress). The background I read to it was the negotiator was threatened by the very influential Nazi element (that some here deny exist) to do their bidding, not give in to demand X or some such. It seems the bloke didn't do as he was told and they killed him.

So it would seem that the Nazis are trying to influence the negotiating process from behind the scenes. Zelensky can't outright condemn them or they'll kill him too. So if he prevaricates and lets Russia do it, everyone wins.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 09, 2022, 08:32:16 AM
As of now, it appears that the president is willing to discuss all of the points the Russians are pushing with the exception of denazification - which from Zelenskiys point of view is probably a death warrant. Is it one or two of the original negotiating team who are now dead with a bullet in the head?

This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I did see on Twitter the other day that one of the negotiating team had been threatened and then killed, I didn't post it as I wasn't terribly sure of the source (an example to Contrarian and Tex, but I digress). The background I read to it was the negotiator was threatened by the very influential Nazi element (that some here deny exist) to do their bidding, not give in to demand X or some such. It seems the bloke didn't do as he was told and they killed him.

So it would seem that the Nazis are trying to influence the negotiating process from behind the scenes. Zelensky can't outright condemn them or they'll kill him too. So if he prevaricates and lets Russia do it, everyone wins.




Denied by the Ukrainian supporters here, even when there is evidence and not fake news..

The video about children being nazified is especially disgusting..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 09, 2022, 09:44:09 AM
Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 09, 2022, 10:25:40 AM
Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 09, 2022, 10:32:12 AM
This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I asked you to do this earlier, but you need to define what you mean as
Nazi's. Please define Nazi's for the purpose of this debate/conversation.

Nazi's are far left extremists to the right of communists and socialists
and to the left of liberals. They believe in command and control by of
state and to have considerable State/Business interaction and unified
and singular purpose.

With the exception of their racism they should feel right at home
with the Green party in every European country.

Nationalism or pride in ones country, history or achievements is not
a characteristic unique to Nazi's. China's communist government is an
example of a country that fosters extreme nationalism at the Olympics
and elsewhere.

So what is your opinion on what constitutes Nazi's? What are their ideals,
goals, desires?

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 09, 2022, 10:35:39 AM
Yes, the one I am sure about has been corroborated by the Ukrainian government.

Apparently, he was shot in the head as he 'resisted arrest' by the SBU. He was being 'arrested' for treason. It is odd that a single shot to the head was required to complete the arrest. Even USAian police do not go for a head shot in such circumstances, they understand that while fatal, a shot to the head is harder to pull off than a body shot - with the benefit that the perp might actually survive the arrest.

A cynic, and everyone knows I am not a cynic, might think it was an extrajudicial execution. For sure it is bound to have the secondary (if not primary) effect of stiffening the president's resolve. To that end, it makes me a little less concerned about the possibility of Zelenskiy being in US custody in Poland. Although, the USAian track record on assassination is not a good one I think that they might be just a tad less reckless than some of Zelenskiy's erstwhile colleagues and staff.

Bill, to help you out because you do seem a tad confused. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is very probably a duck.

However, as a guide to help you, no matter the name of the National Socialist party, often referred to as the NAZI party (which is an acronym from the German name) the party was not a socialist party, at least not in the form by which the ruling party in Germany during the war was seen. By 1934 and afterwards the policies of the party and government appealed strongly to industrialists and owners of capital. It was this grouping who provided much of the financial support and practical backing for the party -oddly enough very similar to the Nazi or neo-Nazi organisations in Ukraine. 

So, yeah, quack, quack!



Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 09, 2022, 10:39:49 AM
Young pioneers marching in Moscow
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 09, 2022, 10:47:16 AM
Young Pioneers in Russia during communism
Source TASS

(https://phototass4.cdnvideo.ru/width/1020_b9261fa1/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20200519/1267673.jpg)


 "The organization is remembered fondly today by millions of people from all over
the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe not so much as a brainwashing
system (though instilling patriotism and ideological education was part of the reason behind the creation of all such youth organizations) but as part of their growing up, where they made friends and became dynamic young souls. "

Source RT Russiapedia
https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/pioneers/

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 09, 2022, 10:58:05 AM
Modern Chinese nationalism and the awakening of self-consciousness of the Chinese Nation
https://ijae.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s41257-019-0026-6

Everyday Nationalism and Authoritarian Rule: A Case Study of North Korea
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/everyday-nationalism-and-authoritarian-rule-a-case-study-of-north-korea/861FBD98F17C36F50770291CFBD15348
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 09, 2022, 11:14:21 AM
Young Pioneers in Russia during communism
Source TASS

(https://phototass4.cdnvideo.ru/width/1020_b9261fa1/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20200519/1267673.jpg)


 "The organization is remembered fondly today by millions of people from all over
the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe not so much as a brainwashing
system (though instilling patriotism and ideological education was part of the reason behind the creation of all such youth organizations) but as part of their growing up, where they made friends and became dynamic young souls. "

Source RT Russiapedia
https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/pioneers/

There is a massive difference between Pioneers of yesteryear and Pioneers of today, they are very similar to the GG movement..
A man of your intellect level should have known/realized that, instead of posting something so stupid obviously in an attempt to challenge my previously posted videos...
It would have been more interesting if you had posted evidence to contradict me, rather than posting such "Whataboutism" claptrap...
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 09, 2022, 11:17:44 AM
This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I asked you to do this earlier, but you need to define what you mean as
Nazi's. Please define Nazi's for the purpose of this debate/conversation.

(https://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29795.0;attach=62130;image)

[attachimg=1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 09, 2022, 11:26:11 AM
Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..


Why don't you first define "Nazify" the children.

This is and has been a baseless claim by Russian Nationalists. You know, the same Nationalists who say "Russia for Russians".

As 2TallBill has pointed out, the Communist youth camps are very similar, almost completely similar, to the "Nazi" youth camps.

Back when Hitler invaded Poland and the Sudentenland, he said that he had to protect "ethnic Germans and ethnic German speakers."

Quite frankly he had a more legitimate claim in saying that, than Putin has had in claiming the same thing as his rational for invading Ukraine and annexing Crimea, then his attempts to annex the Donbas.

However this sort of activity was denounced after WWII and Europe agreed not to rewrite the boundaries of a country in these sort of disputes. Blood was shed in order to come to that conclusion.

But what has happened? A guy who is bitter, angry and jealous that the Soviet Union caved in, wants his delusional fantasy of the old World back.

He doesn't like those kulaks in Ukraine having the nerve to want Democracy. He doesn't like free will and he certainly doesn't like Freedom or Liberty; call it what you will.

So he makes up childish labels, labels which could easily be pinned on many in Russia.

He doesn't like the Ukrainians working hard and owning companies and businesses, he wants to seize those companies and businesses after invading Ukraine and starting the first War on European soil in nearly 100 years.

So he will claim he has "denazified" Ukraine, after he gives all those businesses and companies to his favorite carpet baggers.

Russia has a large country, the largest in the World with amazing resources. But for someone who is angry, bitter and jealous it isn't enough, it never is.

So instead he starts a war, kills thousands of civilians and causes over a Million refugees in Europe. He makes his own country into a pariah on the World stage and he makes baseless accusations and labels on those who he wishes to steal from.

Many experts in the West have said, this is the beginning of the end of Putin. I give it 3 years and he will be gone. Ukrainians and Russians and Europeans and really the whole world will suffer needlessly to fuel the ambitions of a Soviet relic until then.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 09, 2022, 11:27:49 AM
Easy Manny, tell Putin, to tell his Nazi buddies he installed in the east to go back to Russian
and Ukraine is denazified. Then the war can be over.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 09, 2022, 11:32:44 AM
Easy Manny, tell Putin, to tell his Nazi buddies he installed in the east to go back to Russian
and Ukraine is denazified. Then the war can be over.


Simples!


And tell all of the Russian carpet baggers, who stole businesses in the Crimea, to give them back.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world/europe/crimea-annexation-russia-ukraine.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on March 09, 2022, 11:44:29 AM
Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..
Yes its absolutely horrible.

Regardless ,
The use of this Battalion as a reason to invade Ukraine
Falls apart with russian supported Sparta  Battalion and WaGner PMC.
Wagner being used in Donbas.

Donbas  and  invasion into.mairipol was the spark  of reason the azov militia was even formed initially.


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 09, 2022, 11:45:37 AM
Easy Manny, tell Putin, to tell his Nazi buddies he installed in the east to go back to Russian
and Ukraine is denazified. Then the war can be over.

First, he needs permission from one of his advisors.  :laugh:

(https://images.firstpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/rsz_putin_hitler.jpg?impolicy=website&width=640&height=363)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 09, 2022, 11:52:37 AM

There is a massive difference between Pioneers of yesteryear and Pioneers of today, they are very similar to the GG movement..
A man of your intellect level should have known/realized that, instead of posting something so stupid obviously in an attempt to challenge my previously posted videos...
It would have been more interesting if you had posted evidence to contradict me, rather than posting such "Whataboutism" claptrap...

For starters you have totally misunderstood the purpose of my post(s).
I want people to define what Nazi's mean before debating further

I have had the argument a thousand times that Nazi's are left wing nutjobs
rather than right wing nutjobs. I asked Manny (and others) to define what
the f#ck they think Nazi's are.

One of the very first arguments that people make trying to define Nazi is
that they are patriotic/nationalistic.

Now read this.

I posted photos to show that left wing governments are patriotic/nationalistic
all the time.

I didn't even review your stuff, so my photos and posts were in reference to
me and my posts rather than to debate either you or your posts.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 09, 2022, 12:03:14 PM

There is a massive difference between Pioneers of yesteryear and Pioneers of today, they are very similar to the GG movement..
A man of your intellect level should have known/realized that, instead of posting something so stupid obviously in an attempt to challenge my previously posted videos...
It would have been more interesting if you had posted evidence to contradict me, rather than posting such "Whataboutism" claptrap...

For starters you have totally misunderstood the purpose of my post(s).
I want people to define what Nazi's mean before debating further

I have had the argument a thousand times that Nazi's are left wing nutjobs
rather than right wing nutjobs. I asked Manny (and others) to define what
the f#ck they think Nazi's are.

One of the very first arguments that people make trying to define Nazi is
that they are patriotic/nationalistic.

Now read this.

I posted photos to show that left wing governments are patriotic/nationalistic
all the time.

I didn't even review your stuff, so my photos and posts were in reference to
me and my posts rather than to debate either you or your posts.

Agreed, with the addition of white supremacist's, Nationalistic, xenophobic, racial hatred nut jobs IMHO..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 09, 2022, 12:11:21 PM
To answer the question that Bill posses, personally I see the reality that those on the political spectrum are not unlike a clock, Nazism and Communism are 10 minutes before or after midnight.

There is in my opinion a subtle difference between Nazism or Fascism and Communism the two former are driven by an individual where as Communism is driven in theory by a party or group.

Simply stated it is a battle between evil and good. Please understand that Democracy and Capitalism in my opinion are far from perfect or ideal.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 09, 2022, 12:27:15 PM
Only real Nazi here is Putin himself
look at his play book, write  out of Hilters diaries.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on March 09, 2022, 12:47:53 PM
Quote from: NS1
....
But Pro Russian folks here don't have an orignal thought
what ever Putin says, they push that narrative.
The end, "thats all folks"

It's interesting several neo nazi elements  initialized in 2014 over donbass. No?

2 Russian groups,  Sparta Battalion and the Russian funded Wagner pmc,
And the Ukrainian  militia azov battalion.


Both sides of the conflict.

I suppose it would take 5,instead if 2,  on the Russian side to.offest one on.the Ukrainian side in some.peoples minds?

Perhaps it might be interesting that Wagner heavily recruited  ukrainians in Crimea and donbas during that time and the last 8 years.
In September 21 they started refusing any recruit from donbas or Crimea.
Perhaps no longer useful idiots?

 :coffeeread:
 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 09, 2022, 02:06:12 PM
Oppsy poopy! Please delete.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 09, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Bill, to help you out because you do seem a tad confused. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is very probably a duck.

It makes sense to make sure what we are debating. You often say, if you don't
know ask, but in this case you would prefer to act like a twat. You are more than
capable of debating using facts, history and reasoning. No need to be a twat.


However, as a guide to help you, no matter the name of the National Socialist party,
often referred to as the NAZI party (which is an acronym from the German name)
the party was not a socialist party, at least not in the form by which the ruling
party in Germany during the war was seen. By 1934 and afterwards the policies
of the party and government appealed strongly to industrialists and owners of capital.

Yes, this is nearly exactly like the modern left wing parties of the West.
They engage woke corporations and woke rich people, offer them preferential
treatment from government in exchange for money, favors and political
donations etc. The modern left wing parties are total Nazi's.

You made no mention of the racist or superiority complexes of the old day
Nazi's. I don't want to assume your opinion on that, so please clarify that
if is a component in your opinion of the modern day "Nazi's."


It was this grouping who provided much of the financial support and practical backing for the party -oddly enough very similar to the Nazi or neo-Nazi organisations in Ukraine. 

The primary differences is that the Old Nazi's in Germany were mostly legitimate
businesses and made money producing things. While the Nazi's in both Ukraine
and Russia are mobsters and old KGB henchmen/klepto oligarchs, who stole their
companies and resources then siphon money off from various industries. They
engage in murder and mayhem and are every bit as prevalent in Russia as they
are in Ukraine.

Is it possible that the Russian Mobster Nazi oligarchs just wanted to steal industries
and businesses from the Ukrainian Mobster oligarchs? And Russia went to war to
make that happen?

Or did you have a different definition of the kleptocracy presiding in both Russia
and Ukraine. They are pots calling each other's kettle black.   

Also are you speaking with confidence that is what Manny meant by Nazi's? or
is it only you who define it this way?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 09, 2022, 03:52:24 PM
Bill, to help you out because you do seem a tad confused. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is very probably a duck.

It makes sense to make sure what we are debating. You often say, if you don't
know ask, but in this case you would prefer to act like a twat. You are more than
capable of debating using facts, history and reasoning. No need to be a twat.


However, as a guide to help you, no matter the name of the National Socialist party,
often referred to as the NAZI party (which is an acronym from the German name)
the party was not a socialist party, at least not in the form by which the ruling
party in Germany during the war was seen. By 1934 and afterwards the policies
of the party and government appealed strongly to industrialists and owners of capital.

Yes, this is nearly exactly like the modern left wing parties of the West.
They engage woke corporations and woke rich people, offer them preferential
treatment from government in exchange for money, favors and political
donations etc. The modern left wing parties are total Nazi's.

You made no mention of the racist or superiority complexes of the old day
Nazi's. I don't want to assume your opinion on that, so please clarify that
if is a component in your opinion of the modern day "Nazi's."


It was this grouping who provided much of the financial support and practical backing for the party -oddly enough very similar to the Nazi or neo-Nazi organisations in Ukraine. 

The primary differences is that the Old Nazi's in Germany were mostly legitimate
businesses and made money producing things. While the Nazi's in both Ukraine
and Russia are mobsters and old KGB henchmen/klepto oligarchs, who stole their
companies and resources then siphon money off from various industries. They
engage in murder and mayhem and are every bit as prevalent in Russia as they
are in Ukraine.

Is it possible that the Russian Mobster Nazi oligarchs just wanted to steal industries
and businesses from the Ukrainian Mobster oligarchs? And Russia went to war to
make that happen
?

Or did you have a different definition of the kleptocracy presiding in both Russia
and Ukraine. They are pots calling each other's kettle black.   

Also are you speaking with confidence that is what Manny meant by Nazi's? or
is it only you who define it this way?


This.

And don't forget that the "old Nazi's in Germany were mostly legitimate businesses and made money producing things".

That's a real difficult one for dishonest thieves to acknowledge.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 13, 2022, 09:35:50 AM
Here's a delightful young lady I'm sure some of you would like to look up on VK.

In 2014, French magazine Elle featured Aidar Nazi Vita Zaverukha as the Ukrainian Joan of Arc fighting against Russia.

Zaverukha is best known for her calls for genocide, posting videos of her shelling villages and for taking part in the Odessa Trade Unions House massacre.

There's some UK media coverage of her here: Teenage girl soldier hailed as Ukraine's 'Joan of Arc' by Elle magazine is revealed as neo-Nazi and is arrested over cop killing (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3073478/Teen-girl-feted-Ukraine-s-Joan-Arc-fighting-against-Russian-rebels-revealed-nasty-neo-Nazi-views-arrested-killing-cops.html).

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 13, 2022, 09:37:37 AM
I answered you three days ago

I can produce photos of individuals and groups of Neo Nazi's in the UK,
in the USA, in Germany, in Canada and elsewhere. There are far larger
groups of communists in each of those countries including Russia and Ukraine. 

I asked you to define what it is, so that we can have a discussion or debate
if we disagree. It's impossible to debate somebody who refuses to define
terms that they use.

In Chemnitz Germany
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/daca1bbb0d91f7ae01e7d3b13c833aaa9b412eae/0_116_2707_1624/master/2707.jpg?width=600&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=2bddef33c3a7b698bd2f036aed6a9ade


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheworld.org%2Fstories%2F2014-01-29%2Fso-heres-why-germany-struggling-ban-neo-nazis&psig=AOvVaw1IFPgyonQyL0Jn0t7n4ZaG&ust=1647274717704000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=2ahUKEwjrnrjUvsP2AhXngokEHZ3ABGYQjRx6BAgAEAk


In the UK

(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/12/11/11/national-action-rally.jpg?width=600)


In Canada
(https://www.nationalobserver.com/sites/nationalobserver.com/files/img/2020/01/19/befunky-collage.jpg)


In the USA
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F2017%2Fdigital%2Fnews%2Fspotify-deezer-cd-baby-nazi-bands-1202531578%2F&psig=AOvVaw3e7IyFUEnp6NM4Eb_A4j2E&ust=1647275229141000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAkQjRxqFwoTCJjL7svAw_YCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 13, 2022, 09:39:00 AM
Guess Russia should invade Canada and the UK to save Russian folks there too  (:)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 13, 2022, 09:41:07 AM
Bill, they're not embedded in the government, army and security services in other countries or dictating policy. That's the difference.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 13, 2022, 09:45:35 AM
Bill asked a fair question, I think I gave an answer. The rest of the limp members here have either ignored the question or managed to do do Moby like swerves.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 13, 2022, 09:47:27 AM
Here's a delightful young lady I'm sure some of you would like to look up on VK.

In Ukraine as in the UK, Russia, or the US they have women who are spawns
of the devil. Anecdotal evidence of such creatures does not support a widespread
movement among the general population.

I asked you to define what are Nazi's so that I can understand your point
of view. I can't debate you if I don't know where you stand.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 13, 2022, 09:56:30 AM
Putins ( phone) meeting with France and Israel didn't go great, but was said Putin
objectives no longer had denazifying Ukraine as major part of plan.
Guess he solved that already  (:)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 13, 2022, 10:34:40 AM
Bill, they're not embedded in the government, army and security services in other countries or dictating policy. That's the difference.

Define what you mean by Nazi's, politically what are their positions? 

There are 19 different political parties in Ukraine with at least
one member in the Duma.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 13, 2022, 10:51:01 AM
Putins ( phone) meeting with France and Israel didn't go great, but was said Putin
objectives no longer had denazifying Ukraine as major part of plan.
Guess he solved that already  (:)

These are two members of the Ukraine parliment that have been identified as Nazi. 
Arsen Borysovych Avakov
Oleksandr Turchynov


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 13, 2022, 10:56:59 AM
Bill, they're not embedded in the government, army and security services in other countries or dictating policy. That's the difference.

Define what you mean by Nazi's, politically what are their positions? 

There are 19 different political parties in Ukraine with at least
one member in the Duma.

There are over 130 political parties in Ukraine, you'll find among those that have Nazis in them, like Svoboda, they don't all sing from the same sheet and have identical views.

Thus, it isn't a narrow definition. You know what a Nazi is in this context, Bill. You can look up Azov or Svoboda as easily as anyone here. You can term it neo-Naziism, ethnic ultranationalism or Banderism if you prefer. I suspect you are trying to push me down this rabbit hole of specifics in order to claim that Nazis are socialists and ergo, the radical far-right in Ukraine are not Nazis. That isn't really the case as the WAPO discusses here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/).

Here is something you can get your teeth into: The Presence of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine - Russia is using the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine as a pretext for war, but the West is sweeping it under the rug (https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/medea-benjamin-nicolas-js-davies-ukraine-war-russia-ukranian-neo-nazi-fascists-azov-battalion-89292/)

Why not keep it simple using the 'quacks like a duck' theory: If they use Nazi insignia, they're Nazis. That simplifies it somewhat.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 13, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
Putins ( phone) meeting with France and Israel didn't go great, but was said Putin
objectives no longer had denazifying Ukraine as major part of plan.
Guess he solved that already  (:)

These are two members of the Ukraine parliment that have been identified as Nazi. 
Arsen Borysovych Avakov
Oleksandr Turchynov


Historically Communism has killed far far more people than Fascism.

Historically in both Ukraine and Russia Communism has killed at least 40 Million people. Most were starved, tortured and worked to death in Gulags in Siberia.

The number of people allegedly killed by Fascists is minuscule in comparison.

What business does Russia have telling Ukrainians, no matter what their party affiliation is, how to live their lives?

They don't.

Perhaps Ukrainians should be telling Russia how to live their lives and Ukrainians should be invading Russia in order to de-Communize Russia.

According to this article, there are 57 Communists in the Russian Duma. It might be old or slightly off, but you get the point.

Unless the alleged Ukrainian Fascists are invading Russia, than Russia has no business worrying about it.

You can be sure there are more Neo-Nazi's in the St. Petersburg area, working for Putin via Wagner. He likes them when they are doing dirty deeds for him.


Now let me repeat: there are 57 Communists in the Russian Duma.

Communists have tortured and murdered far more than Fascists ever dreamed of. So let's encourage Ukrainians to invade Russia and de-Communize Russia.

In the meantime let's encourage Putin to GTFO of Ukraine and mind his own Pariah business of the country he has destroyed due to his inability to live according to International Law.


Quote

"Elections for the Duma are slightly more competitive. The ruling United Russia party won 49.82% of the vote in the 2021 Duma election, which translated into a supermajority of 324 of the 450 seats in the Duma. The Communist Party, still headed by Gennady Zyuganov, is the only serious competitor – they polled 18.93% of the vote, but only won 57 seats. Other parties with more than 5% of the vote were the SRZP, LDPR and New People parties."


https://siberianlight.net/is-russia-still-communist/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Faux Pas on March 13, 2022, 02:24:46 PM
Here's a delightful young lady I'm sure some of you would like to look up on VK.

In Ukraine as in the UK, Russia, or the US they have women who are spawns
of the devil. Anecdotal evidence of such creatures does not support a widespread
movement among the general population.

I asked you to define what are Nazi's so that I can understand your point
of view. I can't debate you if I don't know where you stand.

Something that has been ignored in your query Bill, is the fact that the strongest and most powerful Nazi's are not the skinheads waving flags with eagles tattooed on their chests. No sir, the worse Nazi's don't even claim to be Nazi's. The JP Morgan's, Henry Fords, Prescott Bush's, Rothchilds, Sherf's, Goldman Sach's and even the Roosevelts. It is they and their ilk that were the worse Nazi's in WW2.

They were worse than Hitler, Himmler and the gas chambers. They financed the Hitler war machine and brought him to power for the sole purpose of doing exactly what he did. For nothing more than profit, power, world domination and death. They've done it throughout the centuries and continue to do it to this day. They are doing it again.

Personally I believe these are the people that Putin is at war with, Ukraine happens to be the staging ground and where he drew the line in the sand and it is them forcing Putin's hand. They are Nazi's, Communist, Fascist, democratic or anything else that will help them to achieve their goals. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 13, 2022, 03:03:03 PM
Here's a delightful young lady I'm sure some of you would like to look up on VK.

In Ukraine as in the UK, Russia, or the US they have women who are spawns
of the devil. Anecdotal evidence of such creatures does not support a widespread
movement among the general population.

I asked you to define what are Nazi's so that I can understand your point
of view. I can't debate you if I don't know where you stand.

Something that has been ignored in your query Bill, is the fact that the strongest and most powerful Nazi's are not the skinheads waving flags with eagles tattooed on their chests. No sir, the worse Nazi's don't even claim to be Nazi's. The JP Morgan's, Henry Fords, Prescott Bush's, Rothchilds, Sherf's, Goldman Sach's and even the Roosevelts. It is they and their ilk that were the worse Nazi's in WW2.

They were worse than Hitler, Himmler and the gas chambers. They financed the Hitler war machine and brought him to power for the sole purpose of doing exactly what he did. For nothing more than profit, power, world domination and death. They've done it throughout the centuries and continue to do it to this day. They are doing it again.

Personally I believe these are the people that Putin is at war with, Ukraine happens to be the staging ground and where he drew the line in the sand and it is them forcing Putin's hand. They are Nazi's, Communist, Fascist, democratic or anything else that will help them to achieve their goals. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
You missed one in your list, Putin.
He is more like a Nazi than any of them.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 13, 2022, 03:12:52 PM
You missed one in your list, Putin.
He is more like a Nazi than any of them.

You're really sore about that lost land of your wife's in Crimea aren't you (https://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,29863.0.html)?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 13, 2022, 03:20:39 PM
You missed one in your list, Putin.
He is more like a Nazi than any of them.

You're really sore about that lost land of your wife's in Crimea aren't you (https://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,29863.0.html)?
Not really, I like pointing out the obvious.
You like to make excuses for it tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 13, 2022, 03:25:50 PM
These are two members of the Ukraine parliment that have been identified as Nazi. 
Arsen Borysovych Avakov
Oleksandr Turchynov

They have been identified as Nazi, how what are their political views that make
them Nazi's? Do they goose step? Have a funny mustache? Tell me what & how.

I could argue that 1/3 of the Democrats in congress are Nazi's or have several
views that would qualify them as such.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 13, 2022, 03:38:34 PM
Something that has been ignored in your query Bill,

That part of my query was far from comprehensive. I need to know what
we are arguing about. I need to make sure we talking about the same thing.

There are many, many elements of Nazism. Which ones are present in the
Ukraine/Russia debate? Which ones are missing? Which ones offend Manny?
Which ones concern Putin?

Regarding your comments, I think that Prescot Bush was a piker compared
to Mark Zuckerberg or Wells Fargo Bank.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 13, 2022, 05:21:17 PM
I could argue that 1/3 of the Democrats in congress are Nazi's or have several
views that would qualify them as such.

The far out Ukrainian Party won less than 2% of the vote in the last election and
they elected ZERO members to the Rada.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Faux Pas on March 13, 2022, 06:38:44 PM
Regarding your comments, I think that Prescot Bush was a piker compared
to Mark Zuckerberg or Wells Fargo Bank.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. Manny can speak for himself. But the way I see the entire scenario is, there is a number of Nazi's in this equation. I also see the same bad actors that have fomented wars for centuries. I can't say I know what Putin's motivation is but, I have a pretty good idea who his enemy is and, it's not Ukraine. It's NATO, the West, The UN, WEF and their need for world domination.

They can call Putin a lot of names but a dummy who's over estimated his ability in Ukraine isn't one of them. He's a proven strategist and he's going to do what he believes is right for Russia, as he should. Back to the Nazi question, yes there are ample Nazi's in Ukraine and all for corners of the world. The one's wearing the tatts and shouting it from the roof tops are not the scary ones


You missed one in your list, Putin.
He is more like a Nazi than any of them.


An Authortarian very likely, a Nazi? Not in this instance. I believe you to be grasping at straws that just simply are not there. He may even be a dyed in the wool Pinko Commie *snip* but I don't think that's it either. Whatever he is, it's not what the West and NATO countries are, is it?

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on March 13, 2022, 09:37:12 PM

Western government influence and the Soros Foundation heavy presence in Ukraine are some reasons Putin wants to denazify it. Look at some of our governments totalitarian behavior during the pandemic. They showed their true colors. They were building "COVID" camps and putting out advertising for people to be trained as guards. They were forcing people to take experimental vaccines. Camps and forcing people to be part of experiments were things the Nazis did. Our governments let thugs like Antifa and BLM terrorize the streets. Fascist governments allowed black and brownshirts to do that in the 30's. Our governments haven't been good to us and they certainly won't be good for Ukraine.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrew99 on March 14, 2022, 12:38:30 AM
I have been to Ukraine in 2020

I think people need to get out in nature and turn off the TV and these nazis will disappear  from people's heads

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 14, 2022, 12:59:06 AM
I have been to Ukraine in 2020

I think people need to get out in nature and turn off the TV and these nazis will disappear  from people's heads

I wish you were right, yet you arent.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 14, 2022, 03:00:43 AM
I have been to Ukraine in 2020

I think people need to get out in nature and turn off the TV and these nazis will disappear  from people's heads

I wish you were right, yet you arent.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/

There is, I am coming to think, a structural issue here.

Although open support for the, shall we call them, far-right nationalists in Ukraine (and not just Ukraine) is relatively low, perhaps around 10%, there is a much larger proportion of people who are generally sympathetic to the ideals of these groups.

As we already know, it takes only a relatively small number of vocal supporters of a social goal, almost any social goal, to impose their will upon general society. The number is reckoned by those who know about this stuff, to be around 10% of the population.

This means that in Ukraine, and other countries close by, there are millions of people who will say or think something along the lines of 'well, there's not much wrong with what they are saying and doing.' So it isn't just a case of rooting out the hardline people who have over the past 8 years become embedded in the body politic and armed forces of Ukraine, but about influencing the general attitudes of the population as a whole - much as was attempted in Germany after the Great Patriotic War. That process, itself, tends to lead to restrictions on free speech and acceptable thought which troubled me in the past - and still do today albeit in a slightly different context.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 14, 2022, 03:04:34 AM

I have been to Ukraine in 2020

I think people need to get out in nature and turn off the TV and these nazis will disappear  from people's heads

I’m not sure that your trip to Ukraine in 2020, renders everyone else’s opinion automatically void.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrew99 on March 14, 2022, 05:15:54 AM

I have been to Ukraine in 2020

I think people need to get out in nature and turn off the TV and these nazis will disappear  from people's heads

I’m not sure that your trip to Ukraine in 2020, renders everyone else’s opinion automatically void.

I have been a place where people here seem to believe its run by nazis? Are you serious and do people even know what nazi is? Maybe little green men as well as running around kharkiv?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrew99 on March 14, 2022, 05:20:19 AM
I have been to Ukraine in 2020

I think people need to get out in nature and turn off the TV and these nazis will disappear  from people's heads

I wish you were right, yet you arent.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/

There is, I am coming to think, a structural issue here.

Although open support for the, shall we call them, far-right nationalists in Ukraine (and not just Ukraine) is relatively low, perhaps around 10%, there is a much larger proportion of people who are generally sympathetic to the ideals of these groups.

As we already know, it takes only a relatively small number of vocal supporters of a social goal, almost any social goal, to impose their will upon general society. The number is reckoned by those who know about this stuff, to be around 10% of the population.

This means that in Ukraine, and other countries close by, there are millions of people who will say or think something along the lines of 'well, there's not much wrong with what they are saying and doing.' So it isn't just a case of rooting out the hardline people who have over the past 8 years become embedded in the body politic and armed forces of Ukraine, but about influencing the general attitudes of the population as a whole - much as was attempted in Germany after the Great Patriotic War. That process, itself, tends to lead to restrictions on free speech and acceptable thought which troubled me in the past - and still do today albeit in a slightly different context.

Have you ever been to Ukraine ? who is telling you 1 out of 10 people belongs to a nazi or  right group in Ukraine? just curious?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 14, 2022, 05:39:25 AM



Have you ever been to Ukraine ? who is telling you 1 out of 10 people belongs to a nazi or  right group in Ukraine? just curious?

- Ukrainian news
- Western news ( although they suddenly downplay/deny it)
- Russian news
- Aljazeera news.
- Friends living in Kharkov/Kherson.

Here's a good starter :
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 14, 2022, 05:40:15 AM
Andrew99, I think that you need to read what I wrote. To help you with an analogy (if you do not know what an analogy is, please ask me, or check a website about grammar and syntax).

Here's the analogy: I am not a member of the Conservative party in the UK, however, I support, in general, their goals and policies. In an election, I will generally vote Conservative. I do not need to be a member of the Conservative Party in order to be a supporter.

In the UK there are many more people who have political beliefs that generally align with the Conservative party, they are sympathetic to the party's policies, but might not always vote for them. There are many more people who fall into that group. In the UK only about 200,000 people are members of the Conservative party.

The same general situation applies in Ukraine. There are relatively few, but still, a large number and many of them are armed and trained to use force in a way that is not true for Conservative voters in the UK. Then there are many, many more people, who might be persuaded to vote for them, in the right circumstances, because they cannot see much wrong with what they say. These people's sympathies are broadly in line with what they see on TV or read in newspapers - particularly when the leadership are being 'voter friendly'. So, the far-right nationalist parties tend to not get huge numbers of seats in government, but they get a fair few and seem to be overly represented within the power structures of the country. You can learn about that for yourself.

Of course, those parties, as far back as 2014 did their very best to downplay their previous overt affiliation to National Socialism. The United States, through various NGOs ran training programs to help these groups to rebrand themselves in a way that was more acceptable to the general population.

The leadership did their best to stop giving Nazi salutes (but they sometimes forget). The military wings are far less careful about abandoning Nazi-style regalia, parades, tattoos, insignia and nomenclature.

So, Andrew99, do a little bit of learning, it isn't hard to do. Then, your ability to understand the world around you and current events will be increased manifold.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 14, 2022, 05:52:24 AM
About those nazi:

Western sources:
https://forward.com/opinion/416751/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/

Ukrainian sources:
https://m.glavcom.ua/country/politics/yarosh-tyagnibok-bileckiy-taki-sformuvali-jediniy-spisok-na-vibori-600508.html
(and even one from the Ukrainian propaganda channel pravda.ua ) https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/articles/2019/07/21/7221526/

I won't list any Russian sources, you wouldn't believe it if they told you the sun is yellow and the sky blue.

Especially that last link should be very eye-opening to those that firmly believe 'there are no nazi in the rada/government' of UA.

Oh and as icing on the cake: The war in Ukraine support have 'Slava Ukrainii' as its war-cry.
You might wanna look up its origins.

Some relatively innocuous symbols like the indian sun-cross will never be seen separate again from naziism. Slava Ukrainii falls under that idiom. It was the war-cry of the criminal Bandera , his atrocities I hope have not been forgotten so easily.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 14, 2022, 09:04:24 AM

I have been to Ukraine in 2020

I think people need to get out in nature and turn off the TV and these nazis will disappear  from people's heads

I’m not sure that your trip to Ukraine in 2020, renders everyone else’s opinion automatically void.

I have been a place where people here seem to believe its run by nazis? Are you serious and do people even know what nazi is? Maybe little green men as well as running around kharkiv?

Having a FiL living in Kharkov, I have been there many times over the last how ever many years..
He tell that the city administration, and the areas government are mostly Ultra's..
On one visit, I saw the Ultra's having a recruitment drive on Freedom square, bang opposite the city administration building...
Does that answer your question??
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 14, 2022, 09:53:06 AM

There is, I am coming to think, a structural issue here.

Although open support for the, shall we call them, far-right nationalists in Ukraine (and not just Ukraine) is relatively low, perhaps around 10%, there is a much larger proportion of people who are generally sympathetic to the ideals of these groups.


Then there are many, many more people, who might be persuaded to vote
for them, in the right circumstances, because they cannot see much wrong
with what they say.

Rather than surmising, inferring or theorizing about possibilities that may or may
not have happened, we should instead look at the historical results.

"In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election all major Ukrainian right-wing parties
formed a nationwide united party list with the political parties Svoboda, National
Corps, the Governmental Initiative of Yarosh, and the Right Sector. The resulting
coalition only managed to win 2.15% of the popular vote, and since the coalition
failed to pass the 5% threshold it gained no parliamentary seats.1"

So there you have it, a tiny subsection of the population supports the radicals
enough to vote for them. An even smaller percentage of people support these
causes enough to take up arms against a superior nuclear armed super power.

There are not enough Nazi's to bother talking about, unless you were using
them as a phony pretext or excuse to invade another country. There is no
method to root out or destroy these people who are dispersed among
the population in Ukraine. You would have to destroy nearly all Ukrainians
to get rid of this tiny subset.

I would argue that Germany, Poland, the UK and even those sneaky Canadians2
have or exceed the 2.5% Nazi idiots that Ukraine has.


1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics_in_Ukraine#cite_note-2748306-cecNC-5
2. I am joking  ;D

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 14, 2022, 10:40:48 AM

"In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election all major Ukrainian right-wing parties
formed a nationwide united party list with the political parties Svoboda, National
Corps, the Governmental Initiative of Yarosh, and the Right Sector. The resulting
coalition only managed to win 2.15% of the popular vote, and since the coalition
failed to pass the 5% threshold it gained no parliamentary seats.1"

So there you have it, a tiny subsection of the population supports the radicals
enough to vote for them. An even smaller percentage of people support these
causes enough to take up arms against a superior nuclear armed super power.

There are not enough Nazi's to bother talking about, unless you were using
them as a phony pretext or excuse to invade another country. There is no
method to root out or destroy these people who are dispersed among
the population in Ukraine. You would have to destroy nearly all Ukrainians
to get rid of this tiny subset.


Bill, well stated.  tiphat

The reality, ugly as it is Russian is grasping at straws to keep it’s narrative alive, it is smoke and mirrors.

Because of Putin’s actions the Russian people will suffer and if V. Putin can maintain control of the nation it will be removed from the International arena. It is sad for those who want no part of this insanity.[

If V. Putin is still in control in a years time that is due to his cunning, otherwise there might be a reset of the relationship. Time will tell the reality./size]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on March 14, 2022, 12:02:22 PM
Quote from: 2tallbill
I would argue that Germany, Poland, the UK and even those sneaky Canadians2
have or exceed the 2.5% Nazi idiots that Ukraine has.

Or Russia.

The same group pointing out azov battalion ,becomes silent when russian funded Sparta battalion and Wagner PMC are mentioned.
Interestingly all 3 groups springing up in 2014 in the same region the one contested by Russia as being predominantly russian.

The two cultures have been interchangeable for decades,now suddenly folks want to show some clear distinction that fundamentally did not exist in language, family ties, societal norms.

They may now .

The big distinction was basically political ideals to lean towards EU,  or towards Russia.

Planted ideals,or manipulated to a degree of change , is up to each outside observers perspective.

Reality dictates that the bulk.of the population likely dint care strongly either way at that time they were more concerned with daily life like most of us.

But they likely  have a strong opinion on one side or the other now .

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on March 15, 2022, 12:21:38 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 15, 2022, 12:53:39 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..
Hopefully they'll see the loads of bodybags and aren't so eager anymore.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: redroo on March 15, 2022, 01:23:51 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..
Hopefully they'll see the loads of bodybags and aren't so eager anymore.

Oh Jeez Steve, the last thing anyone needs is more 18 year old cannon fodder. These kids will be crying for their mama's the second they realise it's not computer war games but real blood and guts  :-(
My own boy is about to turn 17, and there is no way in Hell he'll be going anywhere near Russian again until I get some certainty about this conscription issue over this year.
Let's hope this madness is over very soon.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: redroo on March 15, 2022, 01:32:34 AM
"In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election all major Ukrainian right-wing parties
formed a nationwide united party list with the political parties Svoboda, National
Corps, the Governmental Initiative of Yarosh, and the Right Sector. The resulting
coalition only managed to win 2.15% of the popular vote, and since the coalition
failed to pass the 5% threshold it gained no parliamentary seats.1"

This ^^^^^^^^^

Funny how the Putin apologists won't discuss Sparta and Wagner Group but bang on about Azov,
or how discussing "The War/Invasion" can get you 15 years in the wonderful land of the "Russcists".
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 15, 2022, 08:15:52 AM
"In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election all major Ukrainian right-wing parties
formed a nationwide united party list with the political parties Svoboda, National
Corps, the Governmental Initiative of Yarosh, and the Right Sector. The resulting
coalition only managed to win 2.15% of the popular vote, and since the coalition
failed to pass the 5% threshold it gained no parliamentary seats.1"

This ^^^^^^^^^

Funny how the Putin apologists won't discuss Sparta and Wagner Group but bang on about Azov,
or how discussing "The War/Invasion" can get you 15 years in the wonderful land of the "Russcists".

Redroo, do yourself a favour and learn what the groups that you mention are, what they do, and why they were formed. A few facts will serve to help you to have an informed opinion.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 15, 2022, 08:27:18 AM
In war we count deaths. But what really happens the very many more that are permanently injured. The cost of Viet Nam in the USA still exists today as some survivors still need medical care for war injuries. For every death there are usually three or more serious injuries.

Steve boy your kids will have a chance to fight in the next war that Russia gets into. That will likely happen a couple of years if Putin stays in power.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: chelseaboy on March 15, 2022, 09:05:18 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Yeah i bet they get all excited at the thought of killing women and children.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 15, 2022, 10:26:19 AM
Hopefully they'll see the loads of bodybags and aren't so eager anymore.

+1

Nobody wants to send flags home to their mothers in exchange for her sons.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 15, 2022, 11:04:42 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Yeah i bet they get all excited at the thought of killing women and children.

you are an a**hole.  Just because you get wet at the thought of killing women and children doesn't mean others do.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lord of the Dance on March 15, 2022, 12:23:46 PM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Comments like these are leading me to believe that this conflict will become a bitter and protracted war with many losses for both Russia and Ukraine. I can almost smell the reek of death from here.

I'm praying for peace and continuing to hope for a ceasefire that will stick.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: chelseaboy on March 15, 2022, 03:10:47 PM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Yeah i bet they get all excited at the thought of killing women and children.

you are an a**hole.  Just because you get wet at the thought of killing women and children doesn't mean others do.

Idiot.

I'm not one of those who can't wait to get into Ukraine to kill Ukrainians.. Putin Zombie.

I hope the Ukrainian troops slaughter them.

As for you  your posts reek of anti-west pro-Russian propaganda.

At least Steveboy has got the courage of his convictions and lives in Russia..why aren't you living there you hypocritical little keyboard warrior ?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 15, 2022, 03:33:29 PM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Yeah i bet they get all excited at the thought of killing women and children.

you are an a**hole.  Just because you get wet at the thought of killing women and children doesn't mean others do.

Idiot.

I'm not one of those who can't wait to get into Ukraine to kill Ukrainians.. Putin Zombie.

I hope the Ukrainian troops slaughter them.

As for you  your posts reek of anti-west pro-Russian propaganda.

At least Steveboy has got the courage of his convictions and lives in Russia..why aren't you living there you hypocritical little keyboard warrior ?

Have you ever served in the military and if so what campaigns did  you serve in?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: chelseaboy on March 15, 2022, 04:16:53 PM
I served in the Fleet Air Arm ...and i never bombed civilians.

What relevance has this got with you not having the strength of your convictions and not going to live in Russia ?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 15, 2022, 04:44:30 PM
they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

They have to do a few each year to establish a baseline to make sure they
don't bribe a doctor to say that they suddenly are not fit for service.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 15, 2022, 04:48:29 PM
Gentlemen,

Nobody who has a military age son is excited about sending him
to war. My son has been to Afghanistan and Iraq and is still in the
reserves. Please treat each other with respect and argue your points
without getting personal.

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 15, 2022, 05:51:15 PM
I served in the Fleet Air Arm ...and i never bombed civilians.

What relevance has this got with you not having the strength of your convictions and not going to live in Russia ?
With the exception of my MIL and BIL both of our familes live in the USA. Would you deny us the pleasure of living close to our familes?  We do have a flat in Russian.  We used it for three months this past summer.

I asked about your service because of your unhealty thirst for blood.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Orchid on March 15, 2022, 07:51:58 PM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Comments like these are leading me to believe that this conflict will become a bitter and protracted war with many losses for both Russia and Ukraine. I can almost smell the reek of death from here.

I'm praying for peace and continuing to hope for a ceasefire that will stick.

I have a couple of Russian patients who still keep strong connections with relatives and friends in Russia.
They said to me that Putin has unprecedented support at this time.
Russian people are ready to go through the hardship of sanction and not look at the West as their future.
My patients afraid that it will be dangerous for them to go to Russia any time soon because they are Americans.
This is new reality.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: chelseaboy on March 16, 2022, 01:53:24 AM
I served in the Fleet Air Arm ...and i never bombed civilians.

What relevance has this got with you not having the strength of your convictions and not going to live in Russia ?
With the exception of my MIL and BIL both of our familes live in the USA. Would you deny us the pleasure of living close to our familes?  We do have a flat in Russian.  We used it for three months this past summer.

I asked about your service because of your unhealty thirst for blood.

It isn't me who has the unhealthy thirst for blood..it's the 18/19 year-olds in Russia who can't wait to get into Ukraine to fight who have that...as per steveboy's report.

The fact that you won't have a word said against those blood-thirsty Russian 18/19 year-olds would suggest it's YOU that has the unhealthy thirst for blood.

As for you not living in Russia ,well if your family are as anti-western pro- Russian as you are ,what's to stop you all moving to Russia ?

With the economy crashing in Russia you can all pick up some property bargains and live the dream.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: chelseaboy on March 16, 2022, 02:12:14 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Comments like these are leading me to believe that this conflict will become a bitter and protracted war with many losses for both Russia and Ukraine. I can almost smell the reek of death from here.

I'm praying for peace and continuing to hope for a ceasefire that will stick.

I have a couple of Russian patients who still keep strong connections with relatives and friends in Russia.
They said to me that Putin has unprecedented support at this time.
Russian people are ready to go through the hardship of sanction and not look at the West as their future.
My patients afraid that it will be dangerous for them to go to Russia any time soon because they are Americans.
This is new reality.

That would explain why Russians are fleeing to Georgia,over 20,000 so far, and Finland.just to get away from Putin.



Of course the lower class,unthinking will rally round him though.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 16, 2022, 02:14:19 AM
I served in the Fleet Air Arm ...and i never bombed civilians.

What relevance has this got with you not having the strength of your convictions and not going to live in Russia ?
With the exception of my MIL and BIL both of our familes live in the USA. Would you deny us the pleasure of living close to our familes?  We do have a flat in Russian.  We used it for three months this past summer.

I asked about your service because of your unhealty thirst for blood.

It isn't me who has the unhealthy thirst for blood..it's the 18/19 year-olds in Russia who can't wait to get into Ukraine to fight who have that...as per steveboy's report.

The fact that you won't have a word said against those blood-thirsty Russian 18/19 year-olds would suggest it's YOU that has the unhealthy thirst for blood.

As for you not living in Russia ,well if your family are as anti-western pro- Russian as you are ,what's to stop you all moving to Russia ?

With the economy crashing in Russia you can all pick up some property bargains and live the dream.

This is typical WAFU bollox... If you had 1/2 a brain you would be dangerous...
Conscripts are NOT allowed to fight in Ukraine, although, admittedly some did but they have now been replaced with professionals..
Do you wish to make a comment about Ukraine now calling up and mobilizing 15-18 yr old's??
As far as the economy in Russia is concerned, its coming along pretty well oddly enough...
Property bargains!!! Where??, certainly not in any of the major cities as far as I can see, in fact they have increased in value by a min of 1/2m r this year (City/area dependent)....
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 16, 2022, 02:17:53 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Comments like these are leading me to believe that this conflict will become a bitter and protracted war with many losses for both Russia and Ukraine. I can almost smell the reek of death from here.

I'm praying for peace and continuing to hope for a ceasefire that will stick.

I have a couple of Russian patients who still keep strong connections with relatives and friends in Russia.
They said to me that Putin has unprecedented support at this time.
Russian people are ready to go through the hardship of sanction and not look at the West as their future.
My patients afraid that it will be dangerous for them to go to Russia any time soon because they are Americans.
This is new reality.

That would explain why Russians are fleeing to Georgia,over 25,000 so far, and Finland.just to get away from Putin.

Of course the lower class,unthinking will rally round him though.

Please show a link to this, as far as I am aware, the border crossings to Georgia is still limited crossings/semi-closed, as it has been for many months...
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: chelseaboy on March 16, 2022, 02:22:37 AM
I served in the Fleet Air Arm ...and i never bombed civilians.

What relevance has this got with you not having the strength of your convictions and not going to live in Russia ?
With the exception of my MIL and BIL both of our familes live in the USA. Would you deny us the pleasure of living close to our familes?  We do have a flat in Russian.  We used it for three months this past summer.

I asked about your service because of your unhealty thirst for blood.

It isn't me who has the unhealthy thirst for blood..it's the 18/19 year-olds in Russia who can't wait to get into Ukraine to fight who have that...as per steveboy's report.

The fact that you won't have a word said against those blood-thirsty Russian 18/19 year-olds would suggest it's YOU that has the unhealthy thirst for blood.

As for you not living in Russia ,well if your family are as anti-western pro- Russian as you are ,what's to stop you all moving to Russia ?

With the economy crashing in Russia you can all pick up some property bargains and live the dream.

This is typical WAFU bollox... If you had 1/2 a brain you would be dangerous...
Conscripts are NOT allowed to fight in Ukraine, although, admittedly some did but they have now been replaced with professionals..
Do you wish to make a comment about Ukraine now calling up and mobilizing 15-18 yr old's??
As far as the economy in Russia is concerned, its coming along pretty well oddly enough...
Property bargains!!! Where??, certainly not in any of the major cities as far as I can see, in fact they have increased in value by a min of 1/2m r this year (City/area dependent)....

You seem to lack basic reading comprehension .

My comments are based on steveboys wife's observations about 18/19 year-old Russians who can't wait to fight in Ukraine in post 57.

Steveboy and his wife live in St Petersburg....so are you calling them liars ?

Just done a search about your claim that Ukraine is calling up 15-18 year old's to fight and can find nothing.

Did you get this from some fabricating twitter account like most of your reports ?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: chelseaboy on March 16, 2022, 02:27:36 AM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Comments like these are leading me to believe that this conflict will become a bitter and protracted war with many losses for both Russia and Ukraine. I can almost smell the reek of death from here.

I'm praying for peace and continuing to hope for a ceasefire that will stick.

I have a couple of Russian patients who still keep strong connections with relatives and friends in Russia.
They said to me that Putin has unprecedented support at this time.
Russian people are ready to go through the hardship of sanction and not look at the West as their future.
My patients afraid that it will be dangerous for them to go to Russia any time soon because they are Americans.
This is new reality.

That would explain why Russians are fleeing to Georgia,over 25,000 so far, and Finland.just to get away from Putin.

Of course the lower class,unthinking will rally round him though.

Please show a link to this, as far as I am aware, the border crossings to Georgia is still limited crossings/semi-closed, as it has been for many months...

As i've told you before i don't do links.

Just Google Russians  fleeing to Georgia..it's all there,including an article on the BBC website three days ago "Russia faces brain drain as thousands flee abroad."
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 16, 2022, 03:19:07 AM
I served in the Fleet Air Arm ...and i never bombed civilians.

What relevance has this got with you not having the strength of your convictions and not going to live in Russia ?
With the exception of my MIL and BIL both of our familes live in the USA. Would you deny us the pleasure of living close to our familes?  We do have a flat in Russian.  We used it for three months this past summer.

I asked about your service because of your unhealty thirst for blood.

It isn't me who has the unhealthy thirst for blood..it's the 18/19 year-olds in Russia who can't wait to get into Ukraine to fight who have that...as per steveboy's report.

The fact that you won't have a word said against those blood-thirsty Russian 18/19 year-olds would suggest it's YOU that has the unhealthy thirst for blood.

As for you not living in Russia ,well if your family are as anti-western pro- Russian as you are ,what's to stop you all moving to Russia ?

With the economy crashing in Russia you can all pick up some property bargains and live the dream.

This is typical WAFU bollox... If you had 1/2 a brain you would be dangerous...
Conscripts are NOT allowed to fight in Ukraine, although, admittedly some did but they have now been replaced with professionals..
Do you wish to make a comment about Ukraine now calling up and mobilizing 15-18 yr old's??
As far as the economy in Russia is concerned, its coming along pretty well oddly enough...
Property bargains!!! Where??, certainly not in any of the major cities as far as I can see, in fact they have increased in value by a min of 1/2m r this year (City/area dependent)....

You seem to lack basic reading comprehension .

My comments are based on steveboys wife's observations about 18/19 year-old Russians who can't wait to fight in Ukraine in post 57.

Steveboy and his wife live in St Petersburg....so are you calling them liars ?

Just done a search about your claim that Ukraine is calling up 15-18 year old's to fight and can find nothing.

Did you get this from some fabricating twitter account like most of your reports ?

Info direct from a 15yr old extended family member in Kiev... that's good enough for me..
I also read Steves comments, which should be taken as they are written, i.e. with a pinch of salt, of course youngsters will wish to engage, but as the time comes to join the military, they will probably not be so anxious to fight..
FYI, I don't do twitter, never have, never will, don't even know how... Clever Dick...
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 16, 2022, 03:31:14 AM

Just Google Russians  fleeing to Georgia..it's all there,including an article on the BBC website three days ago "Russia faces brain drain as thousands flee abroad."
The story seemingly originated from Eurasianet, who are:

Eurasianet is an independent news organization that covers news from and about the South Caucasus and Central Asia, providing on-the-ground reporting and critical perspectives on the most important developments in the region. We strive to provide information useful to policymakers, scholars, and interested citizens both in and outside of Eurasia. We publish in both English and Russian.

Eurasianet is a tax-exempt [501(c)3] organization based at Columbia University’s Harriman Institute, one of the leading centers in North America of scholarship on Eurasia. We are funded by Google, the Open Society Foundations, the UK's Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office, the National Endowment for Democracy, Columbia University’s Saltzman Institute of War and Peace Studies and other grant-making institutions, and are advised by a board of trustees.

Members of the board are:

Jeffrey Trimble, former Moscow correspondent and senior official at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and U.S. international broadcasting, chair

Justin Burke, Eurasianet publisher, secretary

Rena Effendi, award-winning social documentary photographer

Valentina Izmirlieva, director of the Harriman Institute at Columbia University

Paule Robitaille, former Moscow correspondent at CBC, treasurer

David Trilling, Eurasianet managing editor

Deirdre Tynan, former Central Asia project director for International Crisis Group

Jo Weir, acting director at Al-Fanar Media

Propaganda at its best...

Although I don't doubt that some Russians have left the country, I cannot believe the numbers stated...Sorry..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 16, 2022, 08:00:55 AM
Although I don't doubt that some Russians have left the country, I cannot believe the numbers stated...Sorry..

20K is nothing when you have a population of 147 million. 20K Russians probably
fell out of bed while F#cking in 2021. It's such a small number that it's statistically  insignificant. They aren't going to pass a law for wearing helmets in bed.

Just like the percentage of Nazi's in Ukraine. 2.15% voted for Nazi's, such a small number that it's insignificant. This is probably equal to the percentage of New Zealanders
who bugger sheep


Note: To my Kiwi friends, it's just a ewe-phemism

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 16, 2022, 10:07:09 AM
Although I don't doubt that some Russians have left the country, I cannot believe the numbers stated...Sorry..

20K is nothing when you have a population of 147 million. 20K Russians probably
fell out of bed while F#cking in 2021. It's such a small number that it's statistically  insignificant. They aren't going to pass a law for wearing helmets in bed.

Just like the percentage of Nazi's in Ukraine. 2.15% voted for Nazi's, such a small number that it's insignificant. This is probably equal to the percentage of New Zealanders
who bugger sheep


Note: To my Kiwi friends, it's just a ewe-phemism

How much of that population is under thirty and educated? Of the industrialized world Russia is one country of the least educated the smallest percent of young population. Losing any Educated young people is a big lost for Russia. Putin is fighting the wrong war. The real threats to Russian security are internal not Europe. Putin is still living in the 1940 or something. He is not building Russia but rather destroying it.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on March 16, 2022, 10:10:25 AM
I actually watched Oliver Stone's 'Ukraine of Fire' yesterday, to try and get a much more in-depth information that led to the 2014 maydan. The documentary did contained more than a bit of 'nationalistic' flavor, which I'm sure was heavily slanted to 'nazism'. I think the term of the 'N' word (hahah)  is more slanted towards the history of Ukrainians who collaborated with Nazi Germany in the last WW.

The documentary I was told, is getting banned from youtube. It reminded me of the massacre at Odes(s)a and the bombing of Luhansk State Administration building in 2014 (in the subject of killing civilians).
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 16, 2022, 10:18:24 AM


How much of that population is under thirty and educated? Of the industrialized world Russia is one country of the least educated the smallest percent of young population. Losing any Educated young people is a big lost for Russia. Putin is fighting the wrong war. The real threats to Russian security are internal not Europe. Putin is still living in the 1940 or something. He is not building Russia but rather destroying it.

What is your source for this?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on March 16, 2022, 11:01:53 AM
I actually watched Oliver Stone's 'Ukraine of Fire' yesterday, to try and get a much more in-depth information that led to the 2014 maydan. The documentary did contained more than a bit of 'nationalistic' flavor, which I'm sure was heavily slanted to 'nazism'. I think the term of the 'N' word (hahah)  is more slanted towards the history of Ukrainians who collaborated with Nazi Germany in the last WW.

The documentary I was told, is getting banned from youtube. It reminded me of the massacre at Odes(s)a and the bombing of Luhansk State Administration building in 2014 (in the subject of killing civilians).
Stirlitz as a Odessa resident had given a report here on that.
His report was
Earlier in the.day.the group had shot peaceful Ukrainian protesters
 downtown  and that's ,been in several news outlets back then.
They were chased by a larger group resident Ukrainians and barricaded themselves in the building shooting and throwing gas bombs at those trying to extract them...

Things go sideways fast.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 16, 2022, 04:43:41 PM
Our oldest has National service in a couple of years ( Though looks like he can skip that now with new law coming in for kids going into IT) but anyway he went for his medical yesterday, they have to do a few each year to make sure they are fit..

Wife went along.... loads of kids 18/19 all wanting or can't wait to get into the Donbass and fight for Russia..

Comments like these are leading me to believe that this conflict will become a bitter and protracted war with many losses for both Russia and Ukraine. I can almost smell the reek of death from here.

I'm praying for peace and continuing to hope for a ceasefire that will stick.

I have a couple of Russian patients who still keep strong connections with relatives and friends in Russia.
They said to me that Putin has unprecedented support at this time.
Russian people are ready to go through the hardship of sanction and not look at the West as their future.
My patients afraid that it will be dangerous for them to go to Russia any time soon because they are Americans.
This is new reality.
COnsidering most Russians get news from state TV and there is not a war, they are rescuing
the Ukrainians as far as large majority think, why would there not be huge support for Putin.

Show the Russian population the truth, let someone take a poll besides the Regime in Russia
and I suspect numbers might be a tad bit different.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 17, 2022, 02:18:15 AM
Show the Russian population the truth, let someone take a poll besides the Regime in Russia
and I suspect numbers might be a tad bit different.
You have said that before, but I know from personal experience, many Russians see all information and know the truth.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 17, 2022, 03:54:17 AM
Show the Russian population the truth, let someone take a poll besides the Regime in Russia
and I suspect numbers might be a tad bit different.
You have said that before, but I know from personal experience, many Russians see all information and know the truth.
I expect younger generations do, Some know, some don't as far as how many who knows.
In Russia its not like you could do an accurate poll. Regardless I think some will support Putin
regardless of what he does, Like this with most leaders in most countries.
Most normal people if they knew what was acutally happening in Ukraine
would not support what is happening.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 17, 2022, 04:05:46 AM


How much of that population is under thirty and educated? Of the industrialized world Russia is one country of the least educated the smallest percent of young population. Losing any Educated young people is a big lost for Russia. Putin is fighting the wrong war. The real threats to Russian security are internal not Europe. Putin is still living in the 1940 or something. He is not building Russia but rather destroying it.

What is your source for this?

I had a quick google and couldn't find anything obvious confirming this. My problem with a lot of Tex's posts is that he makes many sweeping statements, often glued together with an assortment of MSM articles and personal opinions, and posts it as fact.

I simply dont have the time to trawl through the World Wide Web to check if what he posts is factually correct.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 17, 2022, 04:07:52 AM
Show the Russian population the truth, let someone take a poll besides the Regime in Russia
and I suspect numbers might be a tad bit different.
You have said that before, but I know from personal experience, many Russians see all information and know the truth.
I expect younger generations do, Some know, some don't as far as how many who knows.
In Russia its not like you could do an accurate poll. Regardless I think some will support Putin
regardless of what he does, Like this with most leaders in most countries.
Most normal people if they knew what was acutally happening in Ukraine
would not support what is happening.

To be fair, we cant get accurate honest polls in the west, when it comes to our own democratic issues.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 17, 2022, 08:07:29 AM
Although I don't doubt that some Russians have left the country, I cannot believe the numbers stated...Sorry..

20K is nothing when you have a population of 147 million. 20K Russians probably
fell out of bed while F#cking in 2021. It's such a small number that it's statistically  insignificant. They aren't going to pass a law for wearing helmets in bed.

Just like the percentage of Nazi's in Ukraine. 2.15% voted for Nazi's, such a small number that it's insignificant. This is probably equal to the percentage of New Zealanders
who bugger sheep


Note: To my Kiwi friends, it's just a ewe-phemism

How much of that population is under thirty and educated? Of the industrialized world Russia is one country of the least educated the smallest percent of young population. Losing any Educated young people is a big lost for Russia. Putin is fighting the wrong war. The real threats to Russian security are internal not Europe. Putin is still living in the 1940 or something. He is not building Russia but rather destroying it.

I had to return to these comments Tex...
Read and digest;;;
https://egscholars.com/2022/02/02/top-10-most-educated-countries-in-the-world-in-current_date-formaty/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 17, 2022, 11:19:47 AM
I don't know why, but Putin seems to HATE Mariupol.

I gather that's where Azov remain.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on March 17, 2022, 11:23:10 AM
I don't know why, but Putin seems to HATE Mariupol.

I gather that's where Azov remain.
Yes he is such a nazi hater he had this guy, a former GRU lieutenant  colonel  turned Wagner group leader.,invited to a Kremlin reception in 16  to honor him for performance in donbas .


Don't fret, the SS tattoos only symbolize his desire to Save baby Seals.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: NS1 on March 17, 2022, 01:28:47 PM
I don't know why, but Putin seems to HATE Mariupol.

I gather that's where Azov remain.
Yes he is such a nazi hater he had this guy, a former GRU lieutenant  colonel  turned Wagner group leader.,invited to a Kremlin reception in 16  to honor him for performance in donbas .


Don't fret, the SS tattoos only symbolize his desire to Save baby Seals.
Ya but hes a good Nazi, ask Putin  (:)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 17, 2022, 02:31:57 PM
What is your source for this?

Comedy Central? Russians are very educated as a country.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 17, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
What is your source for this?

Comedy Central? Russians are very educated as a country.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 20, 2022, 10:06:14 AM
From The Times of Israel (https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-in-ukraine-attend-marches-celebrating-nazi-ss-soldiers/) May 2021.

Hundreds in Ukraine attend marches celebrating Nazi SS soldiers

For first time ever, parade celebrating 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of SS, made up of ethnic Ukrainians, takes place in capital Kiev

[attachimg=1]
Marchers hold up the symbol of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS in Kiev, Ukraine on April 28, 2021. (AP Photo/Efrem Lukatsky)

JTA — Hundreds of Ukrainians attended marches celebrating Nazi SS soldiers, including the first such event in Kiev.

The so-called Embroidery March took place in the capital on April 28, the 78th anniversary of the establishment of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, also known as the 1st Galician. It was a force set up under German occupation auspices comprised of ethnic Ukrainian and German volunteers and conscripts. The marchers held banners displaying the unit’s symbol.

The Kiev march by about 300 people was an import from the western city of Lvov, which for several years has hosted such events. A day earlier, hundreds attended a larger Embroidery March there.

Ukraine has a large minority of ethnic Russians, who oppose the glorification of Nazi collaborators. Such actions were taboo in Ukraine until the early 2000s, when nationalists demanded and obtained state recognition for collaborators as heroes for their actions against the Soviet Union, which dominated Ukraine until 1991.

Israel’s Foreign Ministry and Ukrainian Jews, who according to a 2020 demographic study number about 47,000, have protested the veneration of the 1st Galician and other collaborators. But the collaborators’ popularity has soared following the 2014 war with Russia.

President Vlodymyr Zelensky, who is Jewish, condemned the embroidery marches, which had been conducted legally.

“We categorically condemn any manifestation of propaganda of totalitarian regimes, in particular the National Socialist, and attempts to revise truth about World War II,” he said Friday in a statement.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on March 20, 2022, 10:13:32 AM

I'm a minority and I haven't experienced any hostility in my dozen trips to Ukraine. But that doesn't mean Russia is lying about Nazis in Ukraine that our current American government is supporting.

Here is a letter 40 Democrats signed asking the Trump administration to label the Ukrainian Azov Battalion a terrorist organization since they have white supremacists neo nazis in its ranks and are recruiting Americans. Now our Democrat led government wants to give the Azov Battalion weapons to kill Russians and our media tells us neo nazis in Ukraine doesn't exist. All people in in the world should be outraged if we are supporting people who worship Hitler. I'm not a fan of Putin but he can tell the truth and our media puts out as much propaganda as the Russian media does.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200130033931/https://maxrose.house.gov/uploadedfiles/2019.10.16_rose_fto_letter_to_state.pdf
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on March 20, 2022, 01:11:33 PM
Some time back the scammers from Nigeria had relocated to Europe .. that's where all all come from now.. same people but in Europe..

It is the same for Ukraine.. so now the scammers are not living in Ukraine they are in Poland.. and soon just about every where else .. sat in some room on the social scamming as they usually do..

We added "Bomb shelter" To the key words in Chat now that will flag scammers up..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 20, 2022, 02:02:00 PM
A graphic from someone with more time on his hands than me posted on Twitter.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 20, 2022, 02:22:18 PM
Oh, no Manny, those are all fakes.
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. And any Nazis in Ukraine are good Nazis. And the good Nazis are OUR Nazis.

Just to help any challenged readers. While some Nazis in Ukraine might be trained and managed by elements of the greater west, the other statements in my post are most certainly untrue.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 20, 2022, 02:22:26 PM
Bill, they're not embedded in the government, army and security services in other countries or dictating policy. That's the difference.

Define what you mean by Nazi's, politically what are their positions? 

There are 19 different political parties in Ukraine with at least
one member in the Duma.

There are over 130 political parties in Ukraine, you'll find among those that have Nazis in them, like Svoboda, they don't all sing from the same sheet and have identical views.

Thus, it isn't a narrow definition. You know what a Nazi is in this context, Bill. You can look up Azov or Svoboda as easily as anyone here. You can term it neo-Naziism, ethnic ultranationalism or Banderism if you prefer. I suspect you are trying to push me down this rabbit hole of specifics in order to claim that Nazis are socialists and ergo, the radical far-right in Ukraine are not Nazis. That isn't really the case as the WAPO discusses here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/).

Here is something you can get your teeth into: The Presence of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine - Russia is using the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine as a pretext for war, but the West is sweeping it under the rug (https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/medea-benjamin-nicolas-js-davies-ukraine-war-russia-ukranian-neo-nazi-fascists-azov-battalion-89292/)

Why not keep it simple using the 'quacks like a duck' theory: If they use Nazi insignia, they're Nazis. That simplifies it somewhat.


2.15 % of Ukrainians voted for Nazi's, they have ZERO seats in the Duma. There
are far more Totalitarian Communists in Russia. They have 57 seats in their Duma.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 20, 2022, 02:25:38 PM
I suspect you are trying to push me down this rabbit hole of specifics
in order to claim that Nazis are socialists and ergo, the radical far-right
in Ukraine are not Nazis.

You assume too much. Sometimes I ask you a question because I want to
understand your view.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 20, 2022, 03:21:30 PM
Oh, no Manny, those are all fakes.
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. And any Nazis in Ukraine are good Nazis. And the good Nazis are OUR Nazis.

Just to help any challenged readers. While some Nazis in Ukraine might be trained and managed by elements of the greater west, the other statements in my post are most certainly untrue.

So we are going to use the belief that the NAZIs in Ukraine is a reason to destroy the country. You can not see this is more immoral that any NAZI in Ukraine was thought of being. Now lets talk about the right wing extremist in Russia that president holds the president office that is trying to kill the cultural of the Ukraine and will likely end up killing ten of thousands many of women and children before it is all over then we are talking about the real NAZIs.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 20, 2022, 04:44:52 PM
Oh, no Manny, those are all fakes.
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. And any Nazis in Ukraine are good Nazis. And the good Nazis are OUR Nazis.

Just to help any challenged readers. While some Nazis in Ukraine might be trained and managed by elements of the greater west, the other statements in my post are most certainly untrue.

So we are going to use the belief that the NAZIs in Ukraine is a reason to destroy the country. You can not see this is more immoral that any NAZI in Ukraine was thought of being. Now lets talk about the right wing extremist in Russia that president holds the president office that is trying to kill the cultural of the Ukraine and will likely end up killing ten of thousands many of women and children before it is all over then we are talking about the real NAZIs.

did you watch the vidio I posted?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 20, 2022, 04:45:15 PM
Bill, they're not embedded in the government, army and security services in other countries or dictating policy. That's the difference.

Define what you mean by Nazi's, politically what are their positions? 

There are 19 different political parties in Ukraine with at least
one member in the Duma.

There are over 130 political parties in Ukraine, you'll find among those that have Nazis in them, like Svoboda, they don't all sing from the same sheet and have identical views.

Thus, it isn't a narrow definition. You know what a Nazi is in this context, Bill. You can look up Azov or Svoboda as easily as anyone here. You can term it neo-Naziism, ethnic ultranationalism or Banderism if you prefer. I suspect you are trying to push me down this rabbit hole of specifics in order to claim that Nazis are socialists and ergo, the radical far-right in Ukraine are not Nazis. That isn't really the case as the WAPO discusses here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/).

Here is something you can get your teeth into: The Presence of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine - Russia is using the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine as a pretext for war, but the West is sweeping it under the rug (https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/medea-benjamin-nicolas-js-davies-ukraine-war-russia-ukranian-neo-nazi-fascists-azov-battalion-89292/)

Why not keep it simple using the 'quacks like a duck' theory: If they use Nazi insignia, they're Nazis. That simplifies it somewhat.


2.15 % of Ukrainians voted for Nazi's, they have ZERO seats in the Duma. There
are far more Totalitarian Communists in Russia. They have 57 seats in their Duma
.


Should Ukraine invade Russia and deCommunize Russia Bill?


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-has-credible-information-russians-are-creating-lists-of-ukrainians-to-be-killed-or-sent-to-camps-ambassador-to-un-says/ar-AAVisUC?li=BBnb7Kz
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 20, 2022, 04:48:28 PM
Oh, no Manny, those are all fakes.
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. And any Nazis in Ukraine are good Nazis. And the good Nazis are OUR Nazis.

Just to help any challenged readers. While some Nazis in Ukraine might be trained and managed by elements of the greater west, the other statements in my post are most certainly untrue.

So we are going to use the belief that the NAZIs in Ukraine is a reason to destroy the country. You can not see this is more immoral that any NAZI in Ukraine was thought of being. Now lets talk about the right wing extremist in Russia that president holds the president office that is trying to kill the cultural of the Ukraine and will likely end up killing ten of thousands many of women and children before it is all over then we are talking about the real NAZIs.

did you watch the vidio I posted?


Communists have tortured, starved and murdered far more than Fascists could even dream of.

Why don't you start researching the Holodomor and other Communist actions, including what they did to about 40 Million people in Russia proper alone.

Maybe after you do that you'll start putting things into perspective. Until then you're falling for one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 20, 2022, 04:51:27 PM
Oh, no Manny, those are all fakes.
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. And any Nazis in Ukraine are good Nazis. And the good Nazis are OUR Nazis.

Just to help any challenged readers. While some Nazis in Ukraine might be trained and managed by elements of the greater west, the other statements in my post are most certainly untrue.

So we are going to use the belief that the NAZIs in Ukraine is a reason to destroy the country. You can not see this is more immoral that any NAZI in Ukraine was thought of being. Now lets talk about the right wing extremist in Russia that president holds the president office that is trying to kill the cultural of the Ukraine and will likely end up killing ten of thousands many of women and children before it is all over then we are talking about the real NAZIs.

did you watch the vidio I posted?


Communists have tortured, starved and murdered far more than Fascists could even dream of.

Why don't you start researching the Holodomor and other Communist actions, including what they did to about 40 Million people in Russia proper alone.

Maybe after you do that you'll start putting things into perspective. Until then you're falling for one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book.

I'll take that as a no.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 20, 2022, 04:59:36 PM
Oh, no Manny, those are all fakes.
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. And any Nazis in Ukraine are good Nazis. And the good Nazis are OUR Nazis.

Just to help any challenged readers. While some Nazis in Ukraine might be trained and managed by elements of the greater west, the other statements in my post are most certainly untrue.

So we are going to use the belief that the NAZIs in Ukraine is a reason to destroy the country. You can not see this is more immoral that any NAZI in Ukraine was thought of being. Now lets talk about the right wing extremist in Russia that president holds the president office that is trying to kill the cultural of the Ukraine and will likely end up killing ten of thousands many of women and children before it is all over then we are talking about the real NAZIs.

did you watch the vidio I posted?


Communists have tortured, starved and murdered far more than Fascists could even dream of.

Why don't you start researching the Holodomor and other Communist actions, including what they did to about 40 Million people in Russia proper alone.

Maybe after you do that you'll start putting things into perspective. Until then you're falling for one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book.

I'll take that as a no.


I'll take it as a no, that you don't want to research Communism. You think Communism is A okay. You're down with it. If the Russians want to put another Million into Gulags in Siberia and torture and starve them to death you think that is a good thing, because we don't want 2% of any society to think differently than the rest of the society, no matter what.

Now just what video is it that you want me to watch. I will watch it just to make you happy.

Let's see if you will start to study how Communism works and what the end goals are.

So far you've shown yourself to be a gullible sheep type of guy.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-has-credible-information-russians-are-creating-lists-of-ukrainians-to-be-killed-or-sent-to-camps-ambassador-to-un-says/ar-AAVisUC?li=BBnb7Kz
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 20, 2022, 05:29:32 PM
A graphic from someone with more time on his hands than me posted on Twitter.

(Attachment Link)

Most of this stuff is just fake. The pictures are too small to see what they mean. Other are not Nazi symbols at all. Many with Nazi symbols have nothing you can see related to Ukraine. Just fake news. Just a group of men no reason to believe they are anything to do with NAZIs. Just the NAZIs in Russia want a reason to ethnic cleans there neighboring country. The rest of the world is going to have to denazifi Russia to stop the killing. 

All the propaganda and tactics Russia is using are very close to Hillter's.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on March 20, 2022, 07:41:37 PM
Guys, here it is again. 40 Democrats signed a letter asking the Trump administration to label white nationalists neo nazis groups in Ukraine as terrorists.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200130033931/https://maxrose.house.gov/uploadedfiles/2019.10.16_rose_fto_letter_to_state.pdf

Back in 2018-19 you can search for all kinds of left leaning media articles saying Ukraine has a real problem with far right neo nazi groups.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/

Now a Democratic led American government and American media wants YOU to believe Ukraine has NO neo nazi problems. They know we have short term memories and playing games with our heads. They are lying to you now or they lied to you in the past. Either way, they have lied to you to benefit their agenda. How many times do they have to lie to you before you stop trusting them?

So much fake news out there to distract us. Did you guys know the NY Times just admitted the Hunter Biden laptop is legit? That means the media lied to us in the past to affect an American election. Also, 50 intelligence agency officials, including former heads of FBI and CIA, lied to us when they signed a letter saying the laptop clearly is Russian disinformation. That plus Russian collusion with Trump hoax and many other things, when they need to lie about something, they blame Putin and Russia. Poke a bear and don't be surprised when sh!t happens.

I'm not concerned about what Putin is doing. I'm concerned about what the American government is doing. It's bad for America and bad for the world. We got really big problems here but the media has put the public into mass psychosis so we're focused on what is going on in Ukraine instead of what is going on at home.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on March 20, 2022, 08:17:50 PM
Billy ,
I posted the known Ukrainian militant neo nazi groups. There could be more.

I posted the known russian neo nazi militant groups ,and those recognized as the leaders of the Russian seperatist movement in donbas

So to rid Ukraine of nazis,which it has some,putin need's to first send russias neo nazis to spearhead a seperatist
movement, then invade.
Lest you've forgotten the  lead guy I posted with SS,tattoos was honored.at a Kremlin reception for his performance in donbass.
So as andrew so.liked to.put it.
It seemingly only Putins nazis he likes, he hates ukraines nazis.

Russian Wagner, Sparta,l battalion , royal.imperial legion.
Far out number azov Ballallion and some outliers like.waffen .

So its not that Ukraine doesn't have nazis,its that  Russia used russian nazis to stir the whole thing in donbas in the first place that's beyond ironic and hypocritical.
 
Pro Russians can't get away from.that no matter how hard they try.

Utkin. Withnthe SS tattoos, the former  GRU Lieutenant Colonel  and neo nazi ,  founder of wagner pmc was instrumental.in donbass.
Invited to a Kremlin reception in 2016.


First recognized war hero (posthumously) of Dpr?
, a neo nazi

So the trying to distance  themselves while pointing out Ukraines nazism is asinine as a justification.

It doesn't mean it doesn't.exist, it means it's not putins  useful.nazis.











Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on March 20, 2022, 09:47:29 PM
So the trying to distance  themselves while pointing out Ukraines nazism is asinine as a justification.


Although I don't think there is a big Nazi problem in Ukraine, there are a few Nazis and we have weaponized them. That alone is no reason for Russia to invade Ukraine but there are many other factors for the invasion. I'd like to believe Putin is a liar on all issues but that is not reality. The West made Russia many promises and the West did not keep it's promises starting with the promise that if Germany is allowed reunification, we would not expand NATO. Besides expanding, NATO began dropping bombs in the former Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan. NATO was created for defense but it's been on the offense ever since the German reunification. Putin is justifiably alarmed.

For me, the Ukrainian Nazis are not a big issue. I just wanted to remind people our government and media flip flops on facts and constantly lies about world events. We are living in dangerous times when they don't provide us facts which allows us to think for ourselves. If they did, most people would not want war, we would not want our governments to lie and go back on promises, even to Russia. If our government had integrity, I doubt there would be war in Ukraine. Based on our government's deceitful and provocative actions, we put Ukrainians in danger. We've lied to Russia and lied about Russia constantly blaming them for everything the last few years. Pointing fingers lying about Russia only made things worse. Is our government that stupid? No, they know exactly what they're doing so its what our government wanted. If I often falsely accuse you of doing wrong, you'd probably be hostile to me. If I don't want hostility, I better not falsely accuse anybody of doing wrong.

If I were living in the 60's, I would support Kennedy's blockade and eventual invasion of Cuba to remove threats to America. Fortunately for the Cuban people and the world, the USSR backed down and didn't escalate the situation. For the benefit of the Ukrainian people and the world, we need to back down. I'm all for Ukraine to be part of the free world but I'm seriously doubting our government truly cares about them. I believe we and Europe used them. Ukraine allowed itself to be used in hopes they would be accepted by the nations that's using them. This relationship isn't going to end well.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 20, 2022, 09:56:25 PM
So the trying to distance  themselves while pointing out Ukraines nazism is asinine as a justification.


Although I don't think there is a big Nazi problem in Ukraine, there are a few Nazis and we have weaponized them. That alone is no reason for Russia to invade Ukraine but there are many other factors for the invasion. I'd like to believe Putin is a liar on all issues but that is not reality. The West made Russia many promises and the West did not keep it's promises starting with the promise that if Germany is allowed reunification, we would not expand NATO. Besides expanding, NATO began dropping bombs in the former Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan. NATO was created for defense but it's been on the offense ever since the German reunification. Putin is justifiably alarmed.

For me, the Ukrainian Nazis are not a big issue. I just wanted to remind people our government and media flip flops on facts and constantly lies about world events. We are living in dangerous times when they don't provide us facts which allows us to think for ourselves. If they did, most people would not want war, we would not want our governments to lie and go back on promises, even to Russia. If our government had integrity, I doubt there would be war in Ukraine. Based on our government's deceitful and provocative actions, we put Ukrainians in danger. We've lied to Russia and lied about Russia constantly blaming them for everything the last few years. Pointing fingers lying about Russia only made things worse. Is our government that stupid? No, they know exactly what they're doing so its what our government wanted. If I often falsely accuse you of doing wrong, you'd probably be hostile to me. If I don't want hostility, I better not falsely accuse anybody of doing wrong.

If I were living in the 60's, I would support Kennedy's blockade and eventual invasion of Cuba to remove threats to America. Fortunately for the Cuban people and the world, the USSR backed down and didn't escalate the situation. For the benefit of the Ukrainian people and the world, we need to back down. I'm all for Ukraine to be part of the free world but I'm seriously doubting our government truly cares about them. I believe we and Europe used them. Ukraine allowed itself to be used in hopes they would be accepted by the nations that's using them. This relationship isn't going to end well.


You could very well be right. I am not an expert on this and basically I took my positions based on the belief that Ukrainians chose us. The whole thing gives me a headache. I feel very bad for them, for their suffering during this invasion and for the loss of life. I hope for peace and a settlement. I don't believe they are going to go back to being friends with Russia however it was a bad decision for Russia to invade.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 21, 2022, 08:48:03 AM
It appears Russia no longer want to de Nazifa Ukraine. Really what Russia is doing with the war is making more Ukraine extremist and if you are calling them Nazis, it is making more.

Prime Minister Naftali Bennett stated that the Russians are no longer demanding the removal of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky nor the complete demilitarization of Ukraine, adding that there is "still a long way to go" in mediating between Russia and Ukraine, at Ynet's "People of the State" conference on Monday.

Bennett added that Ukraine was also no longer demanding to join NATO.

"We will continue together with our other friends in the world to try to bridge [between the sides] to put an end to the war, this is the best thing that can happen," added the prime minister.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on March 21, 2022, 09:39:41 AM
Expanding on the silly 'Denazification in Ukraine'....and the near peace talk agreement:

Max Seddon posted the following: https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1505537887214968834

Quote
It is likely that a compromise would involve Kyiv making token concessions by banning certain groups or changing the names of streets named after Ukrainian partisans who fought alongside Nazi Germany against the USSR in the second world war...
Title: 2.15% Nazis in Ukraine, cause for war
Post by: 2tallbill on March 21, 2022, 11:19:14 AM
It is likely that a compromise would involve Kyiv making token concessions by banning certain groups or changing the names of streets named after Ukrainian partisans who fought alongside Nazi Germany against the USSR in the second world war.

I don't believe it. Russia has to keep all the captured land, Ukraine has to have it
back. If the is no mention of the land then there will be no agreements. 

Quote from your link.
"Turkey says Russia and Ukraine “have almost reached agreement” on:
– a neutral Ukraine with no plans for Nato
–  “demilitarising” Ukraine and security guarantees
– “denazification” (whatever that is)
– lifting restrictions on the use of Russian in Ukraine"

There are no restrictions on the use of Russian, alternate languages is
dealt with in the Ukrainian constitution. This is a fake dispute item just
like the fake deNazification of 2.15% of the population was a real thing.

Demilitarizing is never going to happen. That is the biggest joke of all,
Ukraine might as well agree to complete annexation and control by
Russia. It's only an armed Ukraine that prevents that from happening
today.
Title: Re: 2.15% Nazis in Ukraine, cause for war
Post by: Bodine on March 21, 2022, 11:42:12 AM
It is likely that a compromise would involve Kyiv making token concessions by banning certain groups or changing the names of streets named after Ukrainian partisans who fought alongside Nazi Germany against the USSR in the second world war.

I don't believe it. Russia has to keep all the captured land, Ukraine has to have it
back. If the is no mention of the land then there will be no agreements. 

Quote from your link.
"Turkey says Russia and Ukraine “have almost reached agreement” on:
– a neutral Ukraine with no plans for Nato
–  “demilitarising” Ukraine and security guarantees
– “denazification” (whatever that is)
– lifting restrictions on the use of Russian in Ukraine"

There are no restrictions on the use of Russian, alternate languages is
dealt with in the Ukrainian constitution. This is a fake dispute item just
like the fake deNazification of 2.15% of the population was a real thing.

Demilitarizing is never going to happen. That is the biggest joke of all,
Ukraine might as well agree to complete annexation and control by
Russia. It's only an armed Ukraine that prevents that from happening
today.

Ukraine legislated a language exception in the language law last January. Public & private businesses were to be conducted in Ukrainian language, with the exception of English and other EU languages. Violation of the law were to be fined. Russian language, spoken widely in Ukraine, wasn't included in their exception clause. What was the 'intent' for such a legislation?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine

As for denazification, I don't even remotely believe that is applicable in the sense of demographics, or grouped political affiliation. Elimination of anything nazi-related talk I think is likely more symbolic.

Demilitarization. Very plausible, e.g. Post-WW II Germany/Japan are fine example of demilitarizing and garnering security protection at the same time.
Title: Re: 2.15% Nazis in Ukraine, cause for war
Post by: AvHdB on March 21, 2022, 12:46:16 PM
It is likely that a compromise would involve Kyiv making token concessions by banning certain groups or changing the names of streets named after Ukrainian partisans who fought alongside Nazi Germany against the USSR in the second world war.

I don't believe it. Russia has to keep all the captured land, Ukraine has to have it
back. If the is no mention of the land then there will be no agreements. 

Quote from your link.
"Turkey says Russia and Ukraine “have almost reached agreement” on:
– a neutral Ukraine with no plans for Nato
–  “demilitarising” Ukraine and security guarantees
– “denazification” (whatever that is)
– lifting restrictions on the use of Russian in Ukraine"

There are no restrictions on the use of Russian, alternate languages is
dealt with in the Ukrainian constitution. This is a fake dispute item just
like the fake deNazification of 2.15% of the population was a real thing.

Demilitarizing is never going to happen. That is the biggest joke of all,
Ukraine might as well agree to complete annexation and control by
Russia. It's only an armed Ukraine that prevents that from happening
today.

Ukraine legislated a language exception in the language law last January. Public & private businesses were to be conducted in Ukrainian language, with the exception of English and other EU languages. Violation of the law were to be fined. Russian language, spoken widely in Ukraine, wasn't included in their exception clause. What was the 'intent' for such a legislation?


My wife in Kyiv works (sort of as a real este agent) and for the medical services of the Kyiv government. She is in a mathematician/statistician and based on reports can allocate resources to needed areas. At work she switches from Russian to Ukraine and back with her colleagues.

Only on presentations does she write in Ukraine, this makes sense to me.
Title: Re: 2.15% Nazis in Ukraine, cause for war
Post by: Texan77 on March 21, 2022, 03:25:15 PM

Ukraine legislated a language exception in the language law last January. Public & private businesses were to be conducted in Ukrainian language, with the exception of English and other EU languages. Violation of the law were to be fined. Russian language, spoken widely in Ukraine, wasn't included in their exception clause. What was the 'intent' for such a legislation?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine


They are trying to build Ukraine national identity. Ukraine Cultural and identity had been suppressing for so many centuries they are trying to bring it back. This movement had increase when it appear Russia is trying to find ways to absorb Ukraine. A song played at Putin speech included Ukraine as a part of Russia. Most Ukrainians understand it and it has been over whelming supported even in Russian speaking areas. If Russia had not taken and supported DNR and LNR and there had been an eight-year war with the constant threat of a new Russian invasion it probably would not of happen. Anybody is a hero who fights to not be a part of Russia which in in the hearts and minds of most Ukrainians is much worse than NAZI Germany ever was. The trouble pro-Russian people here have they do not appreciate how much Russia lost the information war in Ukraine.

Even Putin believe that when he showed up there would be millions of Ukrainians in the streets cheering the arrival of Russian troops. Putin so believe his own propaganda, and completely out of touch with reality of how he was viewed in Ukraine he showed up without a war plan. He ended up with miles of a convoy that look like they were more ready for a parade than a war. The whole reason for all of the is about the world's worse diplomacy of someone in power who has no idea what he is doing. At this time Putin is making Biden look smart. 

The victim, Borys Romanchenko, survived the Nazi concentration camps at Buchenwald, Peenemünde, Dora and Bergen-Belsen during World War II. The Buchenwald and Mittelbau-Dora Memorials Foundation confirmed Romanchenko's death in tweet on Monday.

The foundation said Romanchenko's granddaughter told them the multi-story building he was living in was hit by Russian shells, adding they were "deeply disturbed" by the news of his death.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on March 21, 2022, 04:54:06 PM
FTR: I'm neither a pro-Russian/Putin, nor am I pro-maidan. Just as with life for the most part, there always is something in between. I do not support the military special operation/Invasion. These are for others to ponder and argue upon.

What I am is an anti-US current political complicities and hegemony these recent years. That sentiment had largely been much more pronounced since the Clinton 'Balkan' initiatives to Obama years, to the Maidan, to the Yemen war, down US complicity in Ukraine.

As for the language issue, Texan77. I understand Ukraine's intent in establishing its right and identity- to an extent and with exception. Imagine if you will, a federal or even the State of Texas where you are, enacting a law where public and private matters requiring language communication can only be done in the English language, with the exception of Tagalog, Vietnamese, Portuguese, Italian, French and any other Asian language. Violation of such will be met with a fine.

Would you see anything wrong with this law?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 21, 2022, 05:35:33 PM
FTR: I'm neither a pro-Russian/Putin, nor am I pro-maidan. Just as with life for the most part, there always is something in between. I do not support the military special operation/Invasion. These are for others to ponder and argue upon.

What I am is an anti-US current political complicities and hegemony these recent years. That sentiment had largely been much more pronounced since the Clinton 'Balkan' initiatives to Obama years, to the Maidan, to the Yemen war, down US complicity in Ukraine.

As for the language issue, Texan77. I understand Ukraine's intent in establishing its right and identity- to an extent and with exception. Imagine if you will, a federal or even the State of Texas where you are, enacting a law where public and private matters requiring language communication can only be done in the English language, with the exception of Tagalog, Vietnamese, Portuguese, Italian, French and any other Asian language. Violation of such will be met with a fine.

Would you see anything wrong with this law?

While I can not speak to the laws of Texas in Connecticut the legal language is English. Many government services are translated in a variety of languages and interpreters are available for those who need there services.

But court and legal matters are stated in English. Do you see anything wrong with this law and process?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on March 21, 2022, 05:48:36 PM
In the event the gist of the matter was lost with you, no I will not see anything wrong with the way the language law exists where you are. It will however be wrong if it made a special exception for Mandarin, Portuguese…with the specific exclusion of its second largest language spoken, which is still Spanish.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 22, 2022, 07:07:22 AM
In the event the gist of the matter was lost with you, no I will not see anything wrong with the way the language law exists where you are. It will however be wrong if it made a special exception for Mandarin, Portuguese…with the specific exclusion of its second largest language spoken, which is still Spanish.

There is not much I can do for the brain dead who lack morals.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: redroo on March 22, 2022, 07:36:44 AM
When in Ukraine, I live in Odesa. All communication is in Russian and English, only formal documents and education are in Ukrainian. The same could pretty much be said for a line up through Vinnytsia, Zhitomir, Kyiv and everywhere east of that. Nobody ever stopped speaking Russian amongst my friends. It's a dual language country, just like Canada and New Zealand.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 22, 2022, 07:59:07 AM
redroo, what seems to have been legislated in Ukraine is a more draconian version of what exists in Estonia and elsewhere in the Baltic states. The goal is to remove Russian from daily use. It serves to restrict employment, reduce cultural access and to force language acquisition and use.

You are correct to note that on a day to day level, many people's lives are relatively unaffected. However, it does lead to discrimination and cultural isolation. The only mitigating circumstance is the similarity of Ukrainian to Russian, given that Ukrainian is a *snip*ised version of Russian.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 22, 2022, 11:23:28 AM
There are many, many elements of Nazism. Which ones are present in the
Ukraine/Russia debate? Which ones are missing? Which ones offend Manny?
Which ones concern Putin?

I'd not have this charming Ukrainian chap over for dinner.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on March 22, 2022, 01:09:41 PM
There are many, many elements of Nazism. Which ones are present in the
Ukraine/Russia debate? Which ones are missing? Which ones offend Manny?
Which ones concern Putin?

I'd not have this charming Ukrainian chap over for dinner.

(Attachment Link)

Not a nice person.. would have to use a meat cleaver on that one..  :laugh:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on March 22, 2022, 02:46:28 PM
There are many, many elements of Nazism. Which ones are present in the
Ukraine/Russia debate? Which ones are missing? Which ones offend Manny?
Which ones concern Putin?

I'd not have this charming Ukrainian chap over for dinner.

(Attachment Link)

What about this one,?
Putin had him  honored at a Kremlin reception.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lord of the Dance on March 22, 2022, 08:59:22 PM
There are many, many elements of Nazism. Which ones are present in the
Ukraine/Russia debate? Which ones are missing? Which ones offend Manny?
Which ones concern Putin?

I'd not have this charming Ukrainian chap over for dinner.

(Attachment Link)

You can tell that this guy is intelligent by the tattoos on his face.

Only smart people get those.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 22, 2022, 10:43:03 PM
There are many, many elements of Nazism. Which ones are present in the
Ukraine/Russia debate? Which ones are missing? Which ones offend Manny?
Which ones concern Putin?

I'd not have this charming Ukrainian chap over for dinner.

(Attachment Link)

 Yea I bet you have a few of those in the UK also. Maybe Russia should destroy your cities and kill thousands of your population because of it. How do you even know for sure he is Ukrainian, or the tats are real? Maybe because you found it in some Russian propaganda site that usually has fake info all over it? Is this really a reason to destroy a country who does not find these citizens a problem? This is not who Russia is complaining about when it says NAZIs anyway. They are claiming the government of Ukraine is NAZI. I bet this dude if he is even Ukrainian at all does not have a important position in Ukrainian government? This NAZI claim is completely Bogus just like the rest of the claims of the Russian Federation. Now in Peace talk Russian Federation is no longer even trying to rid country of NAZIs. More Russian speaking Ukrainian citizen have been killed by Russan Federation NAZIs than by NAZIs in Ukraine by far. The real NAZI government is in Russia trying to destroy the cultural of Ukraine. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 23, 2022, 11:40:39 AM
How do you even know for sure he is Ukrainian, or the tats are real?

Will a Kiev police officer do?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 23, 2022, 11:57:41 AM
How do you even know for sure he is Ukrainian, or the tats are real?

Will a Kiev police officer do?

(Attachment Link)

Seem to be images of the same individual. Problem not a single image proves he is a police officer or even in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 23, 2022, 01:50:21 PM
How do you even know for sure he is Ukrainian, or the tats are real?

Will a Kiev police officer do?

(Attachment Link)

Seem to be images of the same individual. Problem not a single image proves he is a police officer or even in Ukraine.

using your logic, are you sure there is a conflict in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 23, 2022, 03:21:50 PM
I have never seen a single police officer in Ukraine that had any tattoos that were visible when they were in uniform or had shaved heads. He does not look Ukrainian at all. That is why I question if the picture is real. I do not know if it is a policy or not but if they are any it is extremely rare. Maybe he is a bouncer at some night club, and they are calling him a security officer. But I really doubt he works for the national Ukrainian government. Anyway, if he worked in the UK would that be a reason to invade your country, destroy your cities and kill thousands of citizens? I know we have more than a few somebodies like that in USA and I am not interested in having dinner with them neither, but I would not want to start mass murder to be sure I got all of them.

People keep saying Russia never said what they wanted to achieve in their invasion. Denazification has been said as one objective. Russia is claiming the government is a Nazi form of government that is killing ethnic Russian and they are there to stop that. It is the same old crap they have been saying since 2014. It has been interpreted in the west at this time as meaning to overthrow the government. The main spear head of their invasion was at the city of Kiev. The other thrust was in the south. It looked like they wanted to cut the country in half, then divide it up into pieces. Russia has a history of making small dysfunctional countries on its border which it can easily control. Recently Russian has realized overthrowing the government would mean a war that would never end and is now claiming that is not an objective but in early peace talks it was.

For those who believe that Russia never stated what it wanted need to look at the points Russia made in first peace talks with the Ukraine. Those are the stated goals of the invasion. 

   
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 25, 2022, 05:42:08 AM
We understand your view, Tex. Apparently, you think all those nazis in Ukraine are all fakes or photoshopped, Azov, C14 and Right Sector don't exist and everyone in the Ukrainian military and police are Sunday School teachers. Putin is a nazi though, it must be true coz it said so on MSN blah blah.  :pointlaugh:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 25, 2022, 07:16:53 AM
We understand your view, Tex. Apparently, you think all those nazis in Ukraine are all fakes or photoshopped, Azov, C14 and Right Sector don't exist and everyone in the Ukrainian military and police are Sunday School teachers. Putin is a nazi though, it must be true coz it said so on MSN blah blah.  :pointlaugh: yea

With out doubt there are extremists in Ukraine, call them what ever flavour you wish. But in my albeit limited interactions with police in Ukraine and my observations I have NEVER seen any officer with tattoos. The last time in Ivano Frankovisk and L’viv there were a handful of right sector flags hanging about.

I am certain if one wanted to look, one could find Nazi sympathizers in Italy (okay maybe Facists) Germany, The UK, and the United States. If they stay within the bounds of the law, who cares? Russia I guess wants to rid the world of these sorts. But there is a parable from the Bible, remove the beam in your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter in another’s eye.

The Kremlin is just inventing a flimsy excuse for there actions and some posters are trying to justify the atrocities that are happening because of V. Putin.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lord of the Dance on March 25, 2022, 08:58:39 AM
How do you even know for sure he is Ukrainian, or the tats are real?

Will a Kiev police officer do?

(Attachment Link)

This sort of person appears a tough guy right up until he is strapped down to the table to have those tats seared off with an electric knife. It's great for cutting rope too... it cleanly whips both ends at once.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 25, 2022, 10:15:18 AM
How do you even know for sure he is Ukrainian, or the tats are real?

Will a Kiev police officer do?

(Attachment Link)

This sort of person appears a tough guy right up until he is strapped down to the table to have those tats seared off with an electric knife. It's great for cutting rope too... it cleanly whips both ends at once.

Having been burnt more than once with both an electric knife and a butane one, it is not pleasant. If you get the rope snot on your skin your English will not be proper.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lord of the Dance on March 25, 2022, 12:30:57 PM
Having been burnt more than once with both an electric knife and a butane one, it is not pleasant. If you get the rope snot on your skin your English will not be proper.

Same here. I've spent a few nights with a cup of ice as my best friend after getting splattered with liquid rope. But a hot knife has a million and one uses.  tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 25, 2022, 02:31:31 PM
We understand your view, Tex. Apparently, you think all those nazis in Ukraine are all fakes or photoshopped, Azov, C14 and Right Sector don't exist and everyone in the Ukrainian military and police are Sunday School teachers. Putin is a nazi though, it must be true coz it said so on MSN blah blah.  :pointlaugh:

Yea and we understand you point of view. Because someone in Ukraine might be a NAZI the whole country should be destroyed government overturned, thousand killed and the remaining people should live their complete life in poverty. This is in part because they are Ukrainian and that is how Ukrainians have always lived under Russian rule.  You have all kind of reasons written in Putin National news network to always back you up and blah, blah  :pointlaugh:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 26, 2022, 12:44:53 AM
Because someone in Ukraine might be a NAZI

Oh, you’re admitting the possibility of one are you?  :pointlaugh:
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 26, 2022, 10:26:14 AM
Oh, you’re admitting the possibility of one are you?  :pointlaugh:

Ukraine has a population of over 44 million people. They have Angels, @ssholes
and everything in between just like everybody else.

However, if 2.15% of Ukrainians like Nazi's enough to vote for them on a secret
ballot, where they could exercise their true beliefs and desires then they should
get a medal. That's a low number, compared to Europe in general Russia included.
The denazification of Ukraine is a joke.

Even Putin has stopped talking about Neo Nazi's (but you are still going strong).

You don't have a rebuttal to the 2.15% historical fact.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on March 26, 2022, 10:47:57 AM
Oh, you’re admitting the possibility of one are you?  :pointlaugh:

Ukraine has a population of over 44 million people. They have Angels, @ssholes
and everything in between just like everybody else.

However, if 2.15% of Ukrainians like Nazi's enough to vote for them on a secret
ballot, where they could exercise their true beliefs and desires then they should
get a medal. That's a low number, compared to Europe in general Russia included.
The denazification of Ukraine is a joke.

Even Putin has stopped talking about Neo Nazi's (but you are still going strong).

You don't have a rebuttal to the 2.15% historical fact.

Hello Sex tourist...... (Only teasing you) :laugh:

 Haven you not read yet, The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy (https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12414735@egNews)

I am sure you will learn a lot of things, as all of us who read it! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 26, 2022, 11:18:34 AM
I am surprised that Russia has any remaining Generals not under house arrest or dead. All he is doing is to try to justify the new scaled back goals of the Russian federation.  Many areas the Ukrainian army has more equipment than when the war started because of weapons being abounded by Russian troops. He did not seem to count them.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 26, 2022, 12:12:41 PM
Oh, you’re admitting the possibility of one are you?  :pointlaugh:

Ukraine has a population of over 44 million people. They have Angels, @ssholes
and everything in between just like everybody else.

However, if 2.15% of Ukrainians like Nazi's enough to vote for them on a secret
ballot, where they could exercise their true beliefs and desires then they should
get a medal. That's a low number, compared to Europe in general Russia included.
The denazification of Ukraine is a joke.

Even Putin has stopped talking about Neo Nazi's (but you are still going strong).

You don't have a rebuttal to the 2.15% historical fact.

Hello Sex tourist...... (Only teasing you) :laugh:

 Haven you not read yet, The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy (https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12414735@egNews)

I am sure you will learn a lot of things, as all of us who read it! :thumbsup:
WIZ  most people will not be able to read this site unless they use VPN, I had to use the  Finland hub to read it.  That is the USA version of Freedom of Speach
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on March 26, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
Oh, you’re admitting the possibility of one are you?  :pointlaugh:

Ukraine has a population of over 44 million people. They have Angels, @ssholes
and everything in between just like everybody else.

However, if 2.15% of Ukrainians like Nazi's enough to vote for them on a secret
ballot, where they could exercise their true beliefs and desires then they should
get a medal. That's a low number, compared to Europe in general Russia included.
The denazification of Ukraine is a joke.

Even Putin has stopped talking about Neo Nazi's (but you are still going strong).

You don't have a rebuttal to the 2.15% historical fact.

2TB, what's this fixation that you have about 2.15%???
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 26, 2022, 01:42:34 PM


However, if 2.15% of Ukrainians like Nazi's enough to vote for them on a secret
ballot, where they could exercise their true beliefs and desires then they should
get a medal.

Yes , but this is the core of it for you isn't it.

A) its waaaay more than 2.15 %
B) They are not hiding , they are openly advertising, having marches through streets, flagwaving in public etc. etc. etc. and the crowd cheers them on, thats the most scary part.

Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 26, 2022, 04:42:30 PM


Yes , but this is the core of it for you isn't it.

A) its waaaay more than 2.15 %

Why would they not vote that way, if that was what they wanted? 

The commies want communism so they vote that way. The Green tree humpers
vote that way, the probusiness people vote that way. However, according to you,
the freakin Nazi's vote for somebody else because that's how they roll. Total BS

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 26, 2022, 05:50:00 PM
The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy

In accordance with the decision of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief since February 24 this year. The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are conducting a special military operation.
Translate a war

Its main goal is to provide assistance to the people of the Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics, who have been subjected to genocide by the Kyiv regime for 8 years.
By planning to bring back Yanukovitch RF wanted to bring back Ukraine to a corrupted satellite totally controlled by the motherland, worse than before Maïdan.

It was impossible to achieve this goal by political means. Kiev has publicly refused to implement the Minsk agreements. The Ukrainian leadership twice in 2014 and 2015 tried to solve the so-called Donbass problem by military means, was defeated, but did not change its plans on resolving conflict by force in the East of the country. According to reliable data, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were completing the preparation of a military operation to take control of the territory of the people's republics.
Old usual fake story to justify their own invasion. Who is the stupid idiot in the Ukrainian headquarter, knowing since Autumn 2021 that the RF was massing step by step quantity of troops (from 100000 to 180000) in an arc of more than 200 degrees (N, NE, E, SE, S) all over the Ukrainian border and massing a lot of forces in Dombass so they will be rapidly encircle and cut off from the West and rapidly destroyed?

In these conditions, it was possible to help the Donetsk and Lugansk republics only by providing them with military assistance. Which Russia has done.
Has done since 2014

There were two possible courses of action.

The first is to limit the territory to only the DPR and the LPR within the administrative borders of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which is enshrined in the constitutions of the republics. But then we would be faced with constant feeding by the Ukrainian authorities of the grouping involved in the so-called joint force operation.

Therefore, the second option was chosen, which provides for actions throughout the territory of Ukraine with the implementation of measures for its demilitarization and denazification.
Denazification: there are more nazis in total in the RF than in Ukraine. With a Jew as President... what a joke.
Demilitarization, yes Russia is demilitarizing, day by day.
Ukraine has losses also but the West provides many weapons while the military Russian effort is  jeopardized by the Western sanctions


The course of the operation confirmed the validity of this decision.
As the Nazification of the Ukrainian regime has never been proved and as all Ukrainian people love their nazi regime, the lovely RF special operation will not deliver the Ukrainian army, the territorial defense, the police, the firefighters, the babuchkas, the children, the civilians of the dicature of the Ukrainian democraty, the love this dictature to the point they all fight like a hell in every city invaded by the RF

It is conducted by the General Staff in strict accordance with the approved plan.
The plan has changed around day 7 or 8 due to the fact that the plan was not valid, considering that the whole Ukraine adore her democratical dictature and prefer to die rather than to abandon her lovely internal dictature.

The tasks are carried out taking into account minimizing losses among personnel and minimizing damage to civilians.
That was true during the first week. Yes I do agree.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 26, 2022, 05:55:09 PM
The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy



With the beginning of a special military operation, air supremacy was won during the first two days.
It was never won mainly because of the Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS), a system invented by the RF that cost them a TU22M3 plus some other planes  (Backfire  in Georgia in 2008), Georgian teams were trained by Ukrainian who have high skills in IADS. Question have you seen ONE Russian strategic bomber in the sky since the 22th february? No? You know why now.

Offensive actions of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are carried out in various directions.
Yes, which grantly helped the Ukrainians to save their asses. A strategic mistake contrary to the principle of the Blitzkrieg

As a result, Russian troops blocked Kiev, Kharkov, Chernigov, Sumy and Nikolaev. Kherson and most of the Zaporozhye region are under full control.
The term blocked is correct, the RF blocked those cities to attack but the control is still disputed with local counter-attacks.

The public and individual experts are wondering what we are doing in the area of blocked Ukrainian cities.

These actions are carried out with the aim of causing such damage to military infrastructure, equipment, personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the results of which allow not only to shackle their forces and do not give them the opportunity to strengthen their grouping in the Donbass, but also will not allow them to do so until the Russian army completely liberates the territories of the DPR and LPR.
False argument due to their impossibility 1/ to seize the Ukrainian government day one and day 2 to replace it but a puppet 2/ to seize or pressure more cities like Kiev, Kharkiv, Odessa, Nikolaev i tak dale
So RF wants to seize the complete oblast of Donetsk in Lugansk, genociding the population who are now totally pro Ukrainian here because the following months of Maidan, the Ukrainian pro Ukrainians joined Ukraine while the Ukrainians pro Russians joined Russia, the DNR or Crimea.


Initially, we did not plan to storm them in order to prevent destruction and minimize losses among personnel and civilians.
The fact that more and more shelling hit civilian infrastructure (more violence) just shows that initial options chosen by RF couldn't been executed on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 26, 2022, 05:56:44 PM
The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy


And although we do not rule out such a possibility, however, as individual groups complete their tasks, and they are being solved successfully, our forces and means will concentrate on the main thing – the complete liberation of Donbass.
"They recognize here that they have last the strategic initiative and the political initiative"

Significant territories of the Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics have also been liberated. The people's militia has taken control of 276 settlements that were previously under the control of the Ukrainian army and the national battalions.
The militia? Alone? What a joke, They were supported by at least one combat division maybe two.

Demilitarization of Ukraine is achieved both by high-precision strikes on military infrastructure facilities, locations of formations and military units, airfields, control points, arsenals and warehouses of weapons and military equipment, and by the actions of troops to defeat opposing enemy grouppings.
Exact a lot of missiles have used but it comes to an end (islander type). Some mistakes happened however.
But the lack of laser guided bomb and as the low middle altitude is disputed by shoulder missile, they cannot talk about hig precision strike with just FAB

 
Currently, the Ukrainian air forces and the air defence system have been almost completely destroyed. The naval forces of the country ceased to exist.
Ukrainian navy was not existant basically. For the air defence system it's a complete lie. For the Ukrainian aviation Ukraine still have some plus some armed drones. Nothing big but still a threat.

16 main military airfields were defeated, from which combat sorties of the AFU aviation were carried out. 39 storage bases and arsenals were destroyed, which contained up to 70% of all stocks of military equipment, materiel and fuel, as well as more than 1 million 54 thousand tons of ammunition.
Maybe, time will show

All 24 formations of the Land Forces that existed before the start of the operation suffered significant losses. Ukraine has no organized reserves left.
significant? Yes sure and so? Ukraine has potentially 900000 people under mobilization, 60000 Ukrainian (to be confirmed) coming back to defend their soil and betwen 10 and 20000 men in the foreign legion (to be confirmed)

Losses are replenished at the expense of mobilized persons and personnel of the territorial defence forces who do not have the necessary training, which increases the risk of large losses.


At the time of the start of the special military operation, the Armed Forces of Ukraine, together with the National Guard, numbered 260 thousand 200 servicemen. During the month of hostilities, their losses amounted to about 30 thousand people, including more than 14 thousand - irretrievable and about 16 thousand - sanitary.
"
If Ukrainian forces have suffered 30000 soldiers KIA and wounded so RF has suffered at least 60000 KIA and wounded. Defenders all time take less losses than the attackers. I don't think that RF has suffered 60000 KIA and wounded.

Of the 2,416 tanks and other armored fighting vehicles that were in combat on February 24, 1,587 units were destroyed; 636 units out of 1,509 field artillery guns and mortars; 163 out of 535 MLRS; 112 out of 152 aircraft, 75 out of 149 helicopters; 36 Bayraktar TB2 UAVs - 35;
Maybe, generally some exageration, as usual in any wartime

180 out of 148 S-300 and Buk M1 air defence systems; 300 out of 117 radars for various purposes.
that's why RF planes don't fly they are afraid of the last 32 lasting S300, what a joke
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 26, 2022, 05:57:14 PM
The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy

The AFU continue to use high-powered weapons indiscriminately against towns in Donbass. An example of this is the strikes by the Tochka-U missile system on the civilian population of Donetsk and Makeyevka.

In this regard, they are the primary targets.

As of today, 7 Tochka-U launchers have been destroyed, and 85% of missiles are in arsenals and in the air. This significantly limited Ukraine's capabilities for their combat use.

Since the beginning of hostilities, the Western countries have supplied the Kiev regime with 109 field artillery guns, 3,800 anti-tank weapons, including Javelin, Milan, Konkurs, NLAW ATGM, M-72, Panzerfaust-3, 897 Stinger and Igla MANPADS.
RF did it with the Donbass separatists, with Tchetchenia i tak dale i chto?

We consider it a vast mistake for Western countries to supply weapons to Kiev. This delays the conflict, increases the number of victims and will not be able to influence the outcome of the operation.
some jealousy here. It massively influence the outcome of the RF operation, that's the problem.

The real purpose of such supplies is not to support Ukraine, but to drag it into a long-term military conflict "to the last Ukrainian."

We are closely monitoring the statements of the military and political leadership of individual countries about their intention to supply aircraft and air defence systems to Ukraine. In case of implementation– we will not leave it without attention.
Aircraft have not been supplied. Air defence sytem is defence system. Why Ukraine don't have the right to defend her airspace?

We also hear assurances from NATO leaders about non-interference in the conflict. At the same time, some member states of the North Atlantic Alliance propose to close the airspace over Ukraine. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will immediately respond accordingly to such attempts.
It's why it's very stupid from Ukraine to ask this no fly zone.

In order to prevent the restoration of weapons and military equipment of the AFU that have received combat damage, the Russian Armed Forces are disabling repair enterprises, arsenals, storage bases, logistics warehouses with high-precision weapons.
So why Ukraine don't have the right to send some missiles to the DNR where there are the same type of facilities?

At the moment, 30 key enterprises of the military-industrial complex have been hit by cruise missiles X-101, Kalibr, Iskander, and the Kinzhal aviation complex, which carried out repairs of 68% of weapons and equipment disabled during combat operations.
Good work

Russian modern weaponry has proven to be highly accurate, reliable and capable of operational use.
If you talk about the tanks, the RF tankers don't have the same opinion for the moment. And the KA52 pilots have now less faith in their EW system curiosly

I would like to emphasize that the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation do not strike at civilian infrastructure facilities, including the destruction of bridges across rivers.
yes for the bridge, correct. But for civilian infrastructure that's not true

127 bridges were destroyed in the area of military operations. All of them were blown up by Ukrainian nationalists in order to deter the advance of our troops.
correct

Another example of recklessness is the mining of approaches to the ports of Odessa, Ochakov, Chernomorsk and Yuzhny, where over 400 anchor mines of obsolete types are installed.
"Do you want them to welcome you with icecreams and umbrellas?"

At least 10 mines have broken anchor and are drifting in the western part of the Black Sea, which poses a real threat to warships and civilian vessels.
"It's like your missiles or your bombs when they kill civilians, the war is not so clean"

The rampant crime, looting and marauding and civilian deaths have been caused by the Ukrainian regime's massive uncontrolled distribution of tens of thousands of small arms to the civilian population, including to criminals released from prisons. The situation will only get worse in the future.
"Strangely, in Kiev, the criminality has been divided by 6 since the beginning of the struggle. Maybe you speak about the looting done by RF forces who have no food no petrol?"

The course of hostilities, the testimonies of civilians who left the blockaded settlements and captured Ukrainian servicemen show that today the AFU's ability to resist is based on fear of reprisals by neo-Nazis. Their representatives are embedded in all military units.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 26, 2022, 05:59:16 PM
The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy


The mainstay of the Kiev regime are nationalist formations such as Azov, Aidar, Right Sector and others recognized in Russia as terrorist organizations. In Mariupol alone, they include more than 7 thousand militants who are fighting under the guise of civilians, using them as a "human shield".
If such formations are so terrible, why are you calling tchetchens batallions to fight in Ukraine? A little jealous about fighting other tough bataillons maybe??? like the alpha units also?

The militants of the Azov battalion drive women and children out of the basements, threatening them with weapons, and send them towards the advancing units of the DPR in order to hinder the advance of the people's militia. This has become a common practice for them.
The last two journalist who have left Mariupol have a total different story to tell. This why you sent a commando to capture them in the hospital. Who was threatening who?

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, on the contrary, seek to avoid unnecessary losses. Before the start of the offensive, the AFU units are invited to leave the combat area and move along with equipment and weapons to the point of permanent deployment. Not to resist when the offensive begins and those who lay down their arms are guaranteed safety.

Civilians caught in a war zone are always advised to stay in their homes.
Depends on the level of shelling

Humanitarian corridors are being organized in all cities to get the population out of the area of hostilities, and their security is also maintained.
To be verified

Humanitarian corridors are being created in all towns to allow people to leave the area where the fighting is taking place, and their security is being maintained.
Normally yes

In addition, at the initiative of the Ukrainian leadership, the country has become a home to 6,595 foreign mercenaries and terrorists from 62 states.
You know the terrorist of today become the heroes of tomorrow, it all depend on who wins.

They are not subject to the rules of war and will be ruthlessly destroyed.
They know it, you make it clear

Today, the number of foreign mercenaries is declining. This was facilitated by high-precision strikes on their bases and training camps. On March 13, more than 200 militants were killed and more than 400 wounded in Starichi and at the Yavorovskii training ground alone.
Yes you performed well, some Westerners stupidely believe that this is a Tik Tok party while it's a war.

I note that not a single foreign mercenary has arrived in Ukraine in the last seven days. On the contrary, there has been an outflow. Within a week, 285 fighters escaped into Poland, Hungary and Romania, I hope without Stingers and Javelins.

Previous experience has shown that man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS) and ATGMs are spreading out fairly quickly, along with the mercenaries who return home.

In general, the main objectives of the first phase of the operation have been achieved. The combat capabilities of Ukraine's Armed Forces have been significantly reduced, which allows us, once again, to concentrate our main efforts on achieving the main goal - the liberation of Donbass.
I have already wrote taht most of the RF operations have not been achieved except the seizing of the North Crimea that allows some water to flood Crimea and seizing the Snake Island for the gaz.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 26, 2022, 06:01:03 PM
The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy

In eight years, in the area of the so-called "joint forces operation", a defence belt has been prepared that is deeply echeloned and well-fortified in engineering terms, consisting of a system of monolithic, long-term concrete structures.
some bragging here maybe?  Long term concrete structures? With the help of the wrecked military vehicules and weapons?

In this regard, in order to minimise casualties among the troops of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics, the conduct of offensive operations is preceded by a heavy fire attack on the enemy's strongholds and their reserves.
The famous soviet artillery doctrine, that's a surprising innovation, followed by the Ukrainian counter-battery associated with night raid on your rear

At the beginning of the special military operation, the LPR and DPR people's militias were confronted by a group of 59,300 people comprising the most combat-ready units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, the National Guard and nationalist formations.
And those heroes, alone, defeated 60000 professional Ukrainians soldiers severly entranched and pushed them to move back?  Wow the milicians of the DNR suddenly became all of them superman.
So when a tchetchen crosses a DNR milician on a sidewalk he runs away in fear I suppose.

 

As a result, Ukraine's security forces in the OOS zone lost about 16,000 people, or 26% of their total strength as of 24 February this year.
Maybee yes maybee not.

More than 7,000 of them were irrecoverable losses.
So you have likely lost 14000 at least, due to the fact that attackers all time lost at least twice more losses. Time to dig about this maybe?

Replacing losses is prevented by isolating the Ukrainian grouping of troops in Donbass, taking control of railway stations and key road routes with firepower.

The supply of missiles and ammunition, fuel and food to Ukrainian forces has been almost completely halted.
This sentence applies to the RF army I suppose, you have inverted "Russian" by "Ukrainian I suppose.


The field depots of missile and artillery weapons and ammunition, as well as fuel located directly in the area of the Joint Forces Operation are being hit. To date, 32 facilities have been destroyed, or 61% of the total.
Fuel, vast topic, a long convoy stucked for weeks in the north of Kiev....

All weapons and military equipment, including foreign-made, seized by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation during the special military operation are handed over to the People's Republics. Already 113 tanks and other armoured combat vehicles, 138 Javelin and 67 NLAW grenade launchers and other trophy weapons have been handed over.
"May you remind us the total of RF equipment abandonned, captured by the Ukrainian? They thank you every day to replenish their army"
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 26, 2022, 06:06:28 PM
The speech of the Colonel General Sergei Rudskoy

Units of the People's Militia of the Lugansk People's Republic have liberated 93% of the republic's territory.
"We need these DNR militians in every army, they look better than any Panzerdivision, maybe you should replace the whole RF army by few DNR militians divisions to seize Ukraine"

Fighting is currently taking place on the outskirts of Severodonetsk and Lysychansk.

The People's Militia of the Donetsk People's Rupublic controls 54% of the territory. The liberation of Mariupol continues.
"We need these DNR militians in every army, they look better than any Panzerdivision, maybe you should replace the whole RF army by few DNR militians divisions to seize Ukraine"

Units of the Russian Armed Forces together with the People's Militia of the Donetsk People's Republic are conducting an offensive to liberate settlements to the west of Donetsk.

Unfortunately, there are casualties among our comrades-in-arms during the special military operation. As of today, 1,351 servicemen have been killed and 3,825 wounded.
"Multiply by 5 at least"

All family support solutions will be taken over by the state, raising children up to higher education, full repayment of loans, housing solutions.
If they are still some rubles in the RF banks

We receive a large number of appeals from Russian citizens wishing to take part in the special military operation to liberate Ukraine from Nazism.
"Good, a lot of Ukrainian watching the RF army on their soil say "fachist", so it means that Ukraine will get more reinforcements soon, good, the fight against "fachism" has now no border, good"

In addition, more than 23,000 foreigners from 37 countries have expressed their willingness to fight on the side of the people's republics. We offered the leadership of the LPR and DPR to accept this assistance, but they said they would defend their land themselves.
"Super DNR militia what a spirit! Strangely the chief of the DNR was complaining very recently,  he was upset that RF was not forcing the RF population for a global mobilization are those super heroes a little tired now?

They have enough power and resources.
Who the DNR? the superheroes, yes they do have a paradise economy with tons of resources, it's well known yes, with  shiny brand new industries, all created by their genius skilly hands

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will continue to conduct a planned special military operation until the tasks set by the Supreme Commander-in-Chief have been completed.
The good news is that the tasks are decreasing as the RF army is plummeting day by day.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 26, 2022, 06:37:31 PM
Once more the challenge and problem that V. Putin has is not Nazis or NATO or the LPR/DPR but the contrast between the Democracy of Ukraine and Kleptocracy of Russia. Ukrainians should be free to choose a Western facing future without Hulio dictating how to kowtow to the Kremlin.

Is Ukraine perfect no, nor is Poland, Slovakia or any of the former Warsaw ~ Soviet satellite states. But the Russian general population is going to wake and say, excuse me what have we missed. This is what Putin fears the most, democracy. Ukraine has since 1991 carved its own identity. Russia returns to its Soviet ghosts and the leaders are content with this.

Is Ukraine perfect no, but I suspect better than that of Russia.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 26, 2022, 07:45:59 PM
Before this war in Ukraine started Putin made demands to not have the war. He wanted Nato out of every old USSR country including Poland. In one of these posts on this site I read Russia is claiming that there are 35 countries ready to send troops to help Russian in Ukraine. There are 30 NATO countries who would attack if one of these countries is attacked. There is a risk of this being the beginning of WW3. A Russian official may have said it correctly. There are six countries that need denazification, and they all happen to be former USSR states. This is getting back to what Putin said before the war started. So, denazification may not really have anything to do with what we call NAZIs but rather Russia's way of saying these are pro-western governments Putin wants to replace. By calling them NAZI it justifies Russia's actions.  There is no reason to believe this will be only Ukraine.

What Russia seems to be doing is now trying to make as many refugees as possible. Since the local Ukraine population is not supportive of Russia, he is happy if they are just gone. Tonight, I have read that 4.3 million people have left Ukraine and the number could reach over ten million. That would basically gut the country of most of its middle-class families. Denazification seems to have two meaning in the context of this war. One change out the government to something friendly to Russia and to get rid of the population that is unfriendly to Russia. Anything unfriendly to Russia is considered to be NAZI. It is only when you think of the word in these terms does it have any real meaning.

Now Russia uses the terms of liberating people when in reality it is destroying their homes and lives. This is all part of Russia doing the real ethnic cleansing and the people leaving Ukraine is a part of it. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BC on March 26, 2022, 11:27:00 PM


Is Ukraine perfect no, nor is Poland, Slovakia or any of the former Warsaw ~ Soviet satellite states. But the Russian general population is going to wake and say, excuse me what have we missed. This is what Putin fears the most, democracy. Ukraine has since 1991 carved its own identity. Russia returns to its Soviet ghosts and the leaders are content with this.

Is Ukraine perfect no, but I suspect better than that of Russia.


This post hits the nail on the head.  Only the Russian people can stop Putin.  The elephant in the room is whether or not they have the courage to confront Putin, as Ukraine has.

There is a good documentary series on curiositystream.com "KGB the Sword & the Shield", the puts things into perspective.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10153514/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Danchik on March 27, 2022, 02:13:00 AM


Yes , but this is the core of it for you isn't it.

A) its waaaay more than 2.15 %

Why would they not vote that way, if that was what they wanted? 

The commies want communism so they vote that way. The Green tree humpers
vote that way, the probusiness people vote that way. However, according to you,
the freakin Nazi's vote for somebody else because that's how they roll. Total BS
You're suggesting, with this question, that Rada elections are legitimate and therefore would directly reflect their constituency. OK, sure. (:)

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 27, 2022, 02:15:45 AM
Once more the challenge and problem that V. Putin has is not Nazis or NATO or the LPR/DPR but the contrast between the Democracy of Ukraine and Kleptocracy of Russia. Ukrainians should be free to choose a Western facing future without Hulio dictating how to kowtow to the Kremlin.

Is Ukraine perfect no, nor is Poland, Slovakia or any of the former Warsaw ~ Soviet satellite states. But the Russian general population is going to wake and say, excuse me what have we missed. This is what Putin fears the most, democracy. Ukraine has since 1991 carved its own identity. Russia returns to its Soviet ghosts and the leaders are content with this.

Is Ukraine perfect no, but I suspect better than that of Russia.


"Democracy is what The President of the RF fears the most". +1
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 27, 2022, 02:25:50 AM
Before this war in Ukraine started Putin made demands to not have the war. He wanted Nato out of every old USSR country including Poland. In one of these posts on this site I read Russia is claiming that there are 35 countries ready to send troops to help Russian in Ukraine. There are 30 NATO countries who would attack if one of these countries is attacked. There is a risk of this being the beginning of WW3. A Russian official may have said it correctly. There are six countries that need denazification, and they all happen to be former USSR states. This is getting back to what Putin said before the war started. So, denazification may not really have anything to do with what we call NAZIs but rather Russia's way of saying these are pro-western governments Putin wants to replace. By calling them NAZI it justifies Russia's actions.  There is no reason to believe this will be only Ukraine.

What Russia seems to be doing is now trying to make as many refugees as possible. Since the local Ukraine population is not supportive of Russia, he is happy if they are just gone. Tonight, I have read that 4.3 million people have left Ukraine and the number could reach over ten million. That would basically gut the country of most of its middle-class families. Denazification seems to have two meaning in the context of this war. One change out the government to something friendly to Russia and to get rid of the population that is unfriendly to Russia. Anything unfriendly to Russia is considered to be NAZI. It is only when you think of the word in these terms does it have any real meaning.

Now Russia uses the terms of liberating people when in reality it is destroying their homes and lives. This is all part of Russia doing the real ethnic cleansing and the people leaving Ukraine is a part of it.
I confirm that making as many refugees as possible was part of the RF plan. That's why they let opened the railways and bridges, which is military non sense.
However they are now also hit by their people leaving Russia. They could be happy with this considering that they are  citizens belonging to  the "5th column". Unfortunately in the "5th column" appear some valuable IT talents and probably top value guys who can easily relocate abroad.  Suddenly it matters because IT guys will have a special status to not become a petrifed statue in a tank. Not counting the special status of everyone that will bribe enough to avoid the conscription.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 27, 2022, 04:46:35 AM


Is Ukraine perfect no, nor is Poland, Slovakia or any of the former Warsaw ~ Soviet satellite states. But the Russian general population is going to wake and say, excuse me what have we missed. This is what Putin fears the most, democracy. Ukraine has since 1991 carved its own identity. Russia returns to its Soviet ghosts and the leaders are content with this.

Is Ukraine perfect no, but I suspect better than that of Russia.


This post hits the nail on the head.  Only the Russian people can stop Putin.  The elephant in the room is whether or not they have the courage to confront Putin, as Ukraine has.

There is a good documentary series on curiositystream.com "KGB the Sword & the Shield", the puts things into perspective.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10153514/

Never gonna happen.

Look what happened in Belarus. It never made the slightest bit of difference and the people came out of it worse off.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 27, 2022, 05:47:25 AM


Is Ukraine perfect no, nor is Poland, Slovakia or any of the former Warsaw ~ Soviet satellite states. But the Russian general population is going to wake and say, excuse me what have we missed. This is what Putin fears the most, democracy. Ukraine has since 1991 carved its own identity. Russia returns to its Soviet ghosts and the leaders are content with this.

Is Ukraine perfect no, but I suspect better than that of Russia.


This post hits the nail on the head.  Only the Russian people can stop Putin.  The elephant in the room is whether or not they have the courage to confront Putin, as Ukraine has.

There is a good documentary series on curiositystream.com "KGB the Sword & the Shield", the puts things into perspective.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10153514/

Never gonna happen.

Look what happened in Belarus. It never made the slightest bit of difference and the people came out of it worse off.

For some sheeple this is true, but look at the people of Poland or say The Czech Republic.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 27, 2022, 06:29:46 AM


Is Ukraine perfect no, nor is Poland, Slovakia or any of the former Warsaw ~ Soviet satellite states. But the Russian general population is going to wake and say, excuse me what have we missed. This is what Putin fears the most, democracy. Ukraine has since 1991 carved its own identity. Russia returns to its Soviet ghosts and the leaders are content with this.

Is Ukraine perfect no, but I suspect better than that of Russia.


This post hits the nail on the head.  Only the Russian people can stop Putin.  The elephant in the room is whether or not they have the courage to confront Putin, as Ukraine has.

There is a good documentary series on curiositystream.com "KGB the Sword & the Shield", the puts things into perspective.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10153514/

Never gonna happen.

Look what happened in Belarus. It never made the slightest bit of difference and the people came out of it worse off.

For some sheeple this is true, but look at the people of Poland or say The Czech Republic.

I wouldn't discount the sacrifices made by the people of Belarus or the willingness to get rid of Lukashenko. The reality is, Belarus and Russia can pretty much do what they want with opposition. Poland and The Czech is a completely different kettle of fish.

Suggesting the people of Belarus are sheep is pretty naive.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 27, 2022, 08:23:09 AM

This post hits the nail on the head.  Only the Russian people can stop Putin.  The elephant in the room is whether or not they have the courage to confront Putin, as Ukraine has.

Let's say that Stolichni Smirnov got 75% of the vote. He would lose the election
in a landslide and be in prison before the sun set.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Danchik on March 27, 2022, 11:13:09 AM


Is Ukraine perfect no, nor is Poland, Slovakia or any of the former Warsaw ~ Soviet satellite states. But the Russian general population is going to wake and say, excuse me what have we missed. This is what Putin fears the most, democracy. Ukraine has since 1991 carved its own identity. Russia returns to its Soviet ghosts and the leaders are content with this.

Is Ukraine perfect no, but I suspect better than that of Russia.


This post hits the nail on the head.  Only the Russian people can stop Putin.  The elephant in the room is whether or not they have the courage to confront Putin, as Ukraine has.

There is a good documentary series on curiositystream.com "KGB the Sword & the Shield", the puts things into perspective.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10153514/

No it doesn't.
 
Both of you, and many around the world keep conflating Russia with the Soviet Union. That's the first and biggest mistake you all make.

Many of you also do this with Ukraine and countries like Poland or the Czech Republic and their relationship with Russia. Again, apples and oranges.

NATO was formed to stop Soviet aggression, however, the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 and by 92' Russia had for all intents and purposes become a "democratic" country. They admitted defeat. They wanted to join the club.

Every Russian I have ever talked to speaks of the respect they have for the USA. Russians respect strength, period. 

Yeltsin, with Clinton’s very important approval, handpicked Putin as the former's successor and the US rigged (yes) the 2000 election in Russia to make sure Putin won. Putin apparently was a disciple of the WEF's Young Global leaders FWIW.


make sure to watch the ending ;D

NATO should have been dissolved after 1992, but instead kept expanding, and this is another key point. Not just because expansion was always part of the plan, but to keep the Imperialist’s war machine pumping. American doesn’t manufactured much these days, but it sure does manufacture war.

From sea to shining sea, the war machine is there to lay waste to an area and people and transfer more wealth to a select few, That shit never gets old, huh?

They needed a bad guy to keep around and Russia was an easy choice. Maybe this wasn’t the case at first, nevertheless, when Yeltsin open the door to Russia in the 90's, the West came in and helped the oligarchs destroy the country economically. Bill Browder ring a bell? They even let that POS on MSM in America as a Russian expert. (:).

Add that to the fact that the US does very little trade with Russia as opposed to China and some pieces of the puzzle start to take shape.

Another uncomfortable truth is Putin and Yeltsin wanted nothing more than to be a part of the Liberal Imperialists/NATO банда but were denied time and again. Why?

Was it because Europe would cozy up to Russia and then be much harder to control? Would it deviate the Anglosphere mafia’s/Liberal Imperialists’ plan for a unilateral governance? Would it give rise to a viable Russia on the geopolitical scene? Can’t let Nordstream 2 open now, that would  :censored:  everything up.

Do they just hate Russia? These and many more questions come to mind.

If anyone watched the video I posted from Vladimir Pozner, many of these questions were raised and answered quite well. The fact that no one watches most of the videos posted here is beyond obvious given some the comments that have been posted since.

The next uncomfortable truth is that Ukraine is by far the most corrupt country in Europe (maybe the world), but because Ukraine is portrayed 24/7 by MSM as this helpless damsel in distress with Zelensky riding in on his white horse coming to save the day (:), many have lost track of this fact.

Biden and Zelensky could end this war tomorrow. They could easily work out a compromise where everyone saves face, Ukraine remains a neutral, sovereign country (for the most part) and no more people die.

They won't because manufacturing war is profitable, the war machine needs to be fed and the oligarchs/Corporations whom are invested in Ukraine want their ROI.

Bleeding Russia economically is also on the agenda, yet could have a boomerang effect for Europe and the US.

Explaining truths doesn't mean condoning actions, only that some things need explaining. This situation didn't just start a month ago, or even 8 years ago. It's been going on for decades.

And please, stop with the "democracy' BS already. There's no more democracy where you all live than here in Russia. Don't take my word for it, ask any expat who has ever lived here.

Putin doesn't want to restore the glory days of the Soviet Union as well, nor invade the Baltics. etc.. Those are just weak regurgitated talking points.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 27, 2022, 12:26:54 PM
Well said Danchik.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 27, 2022, 01:59:53 PM
Something I keep reading here and elsewhere is, "Oh but there cant be Nazis in Ukraine because the president is Jewish".

That's like saying there couldn't be any racists in the US when Obama was president.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on March 27, 2022, 02:35:50 PM
Something I keep reading here and elsewhere is, "Oh but there cant be Nazis in Ukraine because the president is Jewish".

That's like saying there couldn't be any racists in the US when Obama was president.
You are perfectly right, but that is not what it is said.
It is said that we have never seen a regime, an organized state that controls a whole territory for years, full of nazis
in the utmost hierarchy, with a Jew topping all of them.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 27, 2022, 03:58:03 PM
Something I keep reading here and elsewhere is, "Oh but there cant be Nazis in Ukraine because the president is Jewish".

That's like saying there couldn't be any racists in the US when Obama was president.
You are perfectly right, but that is not what it is said.
It is said that we have never seen a regime, an organized state that controls a whole territory for years, full of nazis
in the utmost hierarchy, with a Jew topping all of them.

Stepan Bandara was a Jew,

http://www.zerkalov.kiev.ua/node/391 (http://www.zerkalov.kiev.ua/node/391)

STEPAN BANDERA. UNFAITHFUL SON OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE
I read it on several Ukrainian forums, dug up in the internet. Nazis, this is for your snack. That is why Tsilya (note A. - Yulia Timoshenko-Telegina-Kapitelman) is in love with you, you are of the same blood as her. Stefan Bandera is a baptized Jew, Uniate. Greek Catholic from the village of Ugryniv Stary near Kalush, born during the Austro-Hungarian rule in Galicia. Father: Adrian Bandera - a Greek Catholic from the bourgeois family of Moishe and Rosalia (nee Beletskaya, Polish Jew by nationality) Bander. Rosa is a typical Ukrainian name, but what? Mother: Miroslava Glodzinskaya is a Polish Jewess, such Jews are also called HALAKHIC, that is, after their mother. Stefan (Stefan) was the second child after his older sister Martha.

another source is
https://staryiy.livejournal.com/2623443.html (https://staryiy.livejournal.com/2623443.html)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 27, 2022, 04:19:46 PM
Something I keep reading here and elsewhere is, "Oh but there cant be Nazis in Ukraine because the president is Jewish".

That's like saying there couldn't be any racists in the US when Obama was president.

This is not what the Russia means by the word. The have called the USA a Nazi country and our allies Nazis also. This is simple Russia in calling anyone they deem against Russia Nazi because it makes good propaganda. If Russia could, they would de nazify the UK also but that is not possible now. So you keep living the life you have while the people in Ukraine do not have this luxury.

You keep making it sound you feel it is justified to destroy the whole country because someone in the country is right wing, nationalist or a real Nazi. You guys have some of all those in UK. 

UK Nazis

Newer radical right movements have distanced themselves from the overtly neo-Nazi groups of the past in an attempt to confer themselves legitimacy, with members avoiding using racially-charged slurs or dehumanising language. Yet neo-Nazism is far from dormant.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/countering-radical-right/many-faces-neo-nazism-uk/

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lon on March 27, 2022, 08:18:41 PM

Biden and Zelensky could end this war tomorrow. They could easily work out a compromise where everyone saves face, Ukraine remains a neutral, sovereign country (for the most part) and no more people die.

They won't because manufacturing war is profitable, the war machine needs to be fed and the oligarchs/Corporations whom are invested in Ukraine want their ROI.

And please, stop with the "democracy' BS already. There's no more democracy where you all live than here in Russia. Don't take my word for it, ask any expat who has ever lived here.

the war would be ended sooner if Putin were to order all military forces out of Ukraine.  try not to minimize the responsibility of all participants!
I wonder what you might be saying if the reverse were true...a great compromise would be 'return Vladivostok and Primorye to China'.  there are now more persons of Chinese descent living there than Russians

I have been quoting to many "war is good business and business is good".  everybody, but the Ukrainians, want this war...from Biden (puppet), Putin (puppeteer) and Xi (gleeful audience and perhaps puppeteer)  and where does the EU fit into this, more victims?

uh, actually, the USA is a republic.  this is important.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. the AZOV by a Ukrainian refuge
Post by: Lon on March 27, 2022, 08:22:49 PM
Olga Reznikova, a Ukrainian refugee is giving a short history of the AZOV battalion, what they are and how the Ukrainians feel about them.
a little long at 12 minutes and she is clear that this is her opinion

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on March 27, 2022, 10:30:27 PM
Only the Russian people can stop Putin. 


Only the American people can stop Biden. Unfortunately most of us been influenced by propaganda media to believe our government isn't corrupt and are anti war.

If we fix the problems in our country, I guarantee you the world will be a better place.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. the AZOV by a Ukrainian refuge
Post by: yankee on March 27, 2022, 10:55:09 PM
Olga Reznikova, a Ukrainian refugee is giving a short history of the AZOV battalion, what they are and how the Ukrainians feel about them.
a little long at 12 minutes and she is clear that this is her opinion


she is cute.  that is about all I can say.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 28, 2022, 12:57:52 AM
Something I keep reading here and elsewhere is, "Oh but there cant be Nazis in Ukraine because the president is Jewish".

That's like saying there couldn't be any racists in the US when Obama was president.
You are perfectly right, but that is not what it is said.
It is said that we have never seen a regime, an organized state that controls a whole territory for years, full of nazis
in the utmost hierarchy, with a Jew topping all of them.

And yet, Azov-Batallion was funded by Arseni Avakov (then: president/prime minister), Kholomoski (Oligarch) and Taruta ( Oligarch / Governor of Donetsk Region not under DPR control)


So where 2Tbill has no clue, Ukraine is most definately funding, choosing and even cheering on these nazi's.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. the AZOV by a Ukrainian refuge
Post by: Markje on March 28, 2022, 01:07:56 AM
Olga Reznikova, a Ukrainian refugee is giving a short history of the AZOV battalion, what they are and how the Ukrainians feel about them.
a little long at 12 minutes and she is clear that this is her opinion


Girl: The wolfsangel is not an association they made deliberatly but pure coincidence (yeah right), but it also resembles the Waffen-SS logo AND tanyibokh said it was deliberate. She definately did not research it and i won't need to watch all of it.

And: if it walks like a nazi, talks like a nazi, it must be a nazi:
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf
(United nations counsel of human rights report in 2016!)

Some quotes from the report:
OHCHR documented extensive use of civilian buildings and locations by the Ukrainian military and the Azov regiment, and looting of civilian property, leading to displacement. Prima facie civilian buildings in Donetsk city, such as residential buildings, a shelter for homeless people 16, and a former art gallery, continued to be used by armed groups, thereby endangering civilians.

On 23 December, OHCHR met with four detainees held in Mariupol SIZO for their alleged involvement in the 9 May events. They complained that they had been ill-treated by SBU officials and members of the Azov regiment in Mariupol, detained incommunicado for some time in September 2014, and that evidence extracted through torture was being used in their trial. They added that they had been denied medical assistance.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 28, 2022, 01:24:41 AM
Nobody in Ukraine has a problem with Azov battalion but everyone seems to have a problem with the Nazi hunters from Moscow which are leveling cities.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 28, 2022, 01:27:24 AM
Nobody in Ukraine has a problem with Azov battalion
And thats exactly the scary part Tex. Anyone of sound mind should be scared of Azov and condemn them.

Did you know that the USA gov't has a problem with  Azov?

Title: An amendment to prohibit use of funds to provide arms, training, or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.
https://www.congress.gov/amendment/114th-congress/house-amendment/492

Full text:
https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/2015/06/10/house-section/article/H4117-2

Quote

  This amendment that I propose this evening limits arms, training, and
other assistance to the neo-Nazi Ukrainian militia, the Azov Battalion.
  Foreign Policy magazine has characterized the 1,000-man Azov
Battalion as ``openly neo-Nazi'' and ``fascist.'' Numerous other news
organizations, including The New York Times, The Guardian, and the
Associated Press have corroborated the dominance of White supremacist
and anti-Semitic views within the group; yet Ukraine's Interior
Minister recently announced the Azov Battalion will be among the units
to receive training and arms from Western allies, including the United
States.
  Azov's founder, Andriy Biletsky, organized the neo-Nazi group the
Social-National Assembly in 2008. Azov men use neo-Nazi symbolism on
their banner.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 28, 2022, 01:34:27 AM

Biden and Zelensky could end this war tomorrow. They could easily work out a compromise where everyone saves face, Ukraine remains a neutral, sovereign country (for the most part) and no more people die.

They won't because manufacturing war is profitable, the war machine needs to be fed and the oligarchs/Corporations whom are invested in Ukraine want their ROI.

And please, stop with the "democracy' BS already. There's no more democracy where you all live than here in Russia. Don't take my word for it, ask any expat who has ever lived here.

the war would be ended sooner if Putin were to order all military forces out of Ukraine.  try not to minimize the responsibility of all participants!
I wonder what you might be saying if the reverse were true...a great compromise would be 'return Vladivostok and Primorye to China'.  there are now more persons of Chinese descent living there than Russians

I have been quoting to many "war is good business and business is good".  everybody, but the Ukrainians, want this war...from Biden (puppet), Putin (puppeteer) and Xi (gleeful audience and perhaps puppeteer)  and where does the EU fit into this, more victims?

uh, actually, the USA is a republic.  this is important.

I also think it’s been good for Zelenskiy too. As an actor, he’s got so much time centre stage, I bet his agent will be soliciting offers as we speak.

In my opinion, he could have negotiated a cease fire weeks ago, had it suited him.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BC on March 28, 2022, 01:38:27 AM

No it doesn't.

Your opinion.  The rest of your post is composed of distraction and logical fallacies and does nothing to address the OP.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 28, 2022, 01:47:39 AM

Stepan Bandara was a Jew,


WAS is right, past tense:
https://mail.derechos.org/peace/russia/doc/sbandera1.html

Quote:

One such pogrom took place in the city of Lvov. In just a few days, over 4,000 Jews were ruthlessly murdered by Bandera's forces. Pamphlets handed out by Bandera's group to the local Jewish population read "We will lay your heads at Hitler's feet."

The commemoration of Bandera has been condemned by Jewish communities in Ukraine, Russia and all over the world. Leading Jewish organizations, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Federation of Jewish Communities of Russia and the Student Union of French Jews, have issued their outrage over the award.

Ukraine's chief rabbi, Moshe Reuven Asman, has asked his attorneys to find a way he can return his Ukrainian Order of Merit award in order express his protest over the honoring.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lon on March 28, 2022, 03:02:00 AM

Did you know that the USA gov't has a problem with  Azov?

Title: An amendment to prohibit use of funds to provide arms, training, or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.
https://www.congress.gov/amendment/114th-congress/house-amendment/492

Full text:
https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/2015/06/10/house-section/article/H4117-2

Quote

  This amendment that I propose this evening limits arms, training, and
other assistance to the neo-Nazi Ukrainian militia, the Azov Battalion.
  Foreign Policy magazine has characterized the 1,000-man Azov
Battalion as ``openly neo-Nazi'' and ``fascist.'' Numerous other news
organizations, including The New York Times, The Guardian, and the
Associated Press have corroborated the dominance of White supremacist
and anti-Semitic views within the group; yet Ukraine's Interior
Minister recently announced the Azov Battalion will be among the units
to receive training and arms from Western allies, including the United
States.
  Azov's founder, Andriy Biletsky, organized the neo-Nazi group the
Social-National Assembly in 2008. Azov men use neo-Nazi symbolism on
their banner.

I could not say if the AZOV battalion is nazi or not,
but....
given a choice in trusting this Olga and her views (manipulations?)
or
what the western governments and the western main stream media (The New York Times, The Guardian, and the Associated Press) are trying to manipulate us into believing (and not just the AZOV battalion).

who to believe?  perhaps a more trusted source???
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 28, 2022, 03:39:17 AM
The far right in Ukraine in 2012 received 10 per cent of the vote in Ukraine. Then 6 per cent percent in 2014 and now only 2 percent in 2019 election and in the president race they received only 1.4 percent. The number of far-right supporters far lower than any time in recent history. Nobody in Ukraine wants to be saved by Russia.

 [attachimg=1]

The whole video for anyone who wants to see it.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 28, 2022, 03:46:52 AM
I could not say if the AZOV battalion is nazi or not,

who to believe?  perhaps a more trusted source???

How about the azov batallion's leaders, whom claim that AZOV is a nazi / neonazi regiment.

And to commemorate that fact, they are flying the SS ,wolfsangel flags, they have the hitler salute, they regularly harass jews and roma people, they use torture and medical experiments ala mengele.

No you are right, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it behaves like a duck but it most definately can be questioned whether they are a duck.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 28, 2022, 04:34:08 AM
https://thesaker.is/just-a-handful-not-relevant-yet/

Here's the reality. Anyone who denies the presence of strong Nazi tendencies in Ukraine or that they are not at the least tacitly tolerated is being either purposefully ignorant or dishonest.

The reality is that those tendencies and sympathy for them spread much further than Ukraine.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 28, 2022, 07:46:43 AM
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 28, 2022, 12:33:41 PM
Now AZOV battalion is only 1000 men. They would not exist except for Russia invasions. This invasion is not justified because of so called Nazis. All countries that Russia does not like are called Nazis at different times. This dude Marje claims still supports the Azov battalion is only work a 100 million. Though it is a lot of money for an induvial it does not buy much of an army in today's world and I am sure he did not give it all away. This is just an excuse to invade Ukraine. No one here has made any claims that would show the Nazis in Ukraine have done .01 percent of damage and death the Russian army has done. There are Nazi in every country including yours no matter which one it is. So maybe Russia should invade your home country. I do Photoshop work. Flags can be added to any picture. It is not prof of anything.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 28, 2022, 01:36:17 PM

I also think it’s been good for Zelenskiy too. As an actor, he’s got so much time center stage, I bet his agent will be soliciting offers as we speak.

In my opinion, he could have negotiated a cease fire weeks ago, had it suited him.

Sure, they only demanded that they give them the country and resign as president while they installed the president of Russia choice. Russia was not willing to budge from that stand then. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 28, 2022, 01:37:32 PM
https://thesaker.is/just-a-handful-not-relevant-yet/

Here's the reality. Anyone who denies the presence of strong Nazi tendencies in Ukraine or that they are not at the least tacitly tolerated is being either purposefully ignorant or dishonest.

The reality is that those tendencies and sympathy for them spread much further than Ukraine.

This is becoming confusing, one poster says the AVOZ group is prohibited from Western military aid and yet the link from Andrew says they are receiving it. Another poster they are considered a terrorist group sanctioned and on a list of no givey’s and yet the link say’s otherwise.

Let’s try to stay on the same page!

Yes the battalion is about 1,000 soldiers. They recaptured Mariupol in 2014 from the Russians. That must of bruised V. Putin’s, ass, ego, and image. The entire Ukraine army is +/- 100,000 men.

From the Saker article NOT one person noted is serving or has served in the last three years in government. Only 2.5 percent of the population voted for candidates associated with Right Sector/AZOV in the last election.

S. V. Nadal mayor of Ternopil has expelled the members of Right Sector/AZOV from the local government though he was elected on the platform of Svoboda, an ultra nationalist Ukraine party, this does not make the party or him Facist or Nazis.

The far right flavour how ever you wish to label them does extend across continents and seas. Often confused and simple persons latch onto a concept and ideology that sort of confirms their instincts and run with it.  :sick0002:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on March 28, 2022, 01:38:14 PM
Now AZOV battalion is only 1000 men. They would not exist except for Russia invasions. This invasion is not justified because of so called Nazis. All countries that Russia does not like are called Nazis at different times. This dude Marje claims still supports the Azov battalion is only work a 100 million. Though it is a lot of money for an induvial it does not buy much of an army in today's world and I am sure he did not give it all away. This is just an excuse to invade Ukraine. No one here has made any claims that would show the Nazis in Ukraine have done .01 percent of damage and death the Russian army has done. There are Nazi in every country including yours no matter which one it is. So maybe Russia should invade your home country. I do Photoshop work. Flags can be added to any picture. It is not prof of anything.

Ah so now AZOV are indeed neo-nazi but they are only 1000 men. We're making progress. Someone else can debunk those theories I've had enough of this nonsense. They exist, fact. They are neonazi's , fact. They themselves call themselves neonazi's , fact. Those are not in denial.

So how dangerous are 1000 men with their own high-powered rifles, army-stuff and barracks compared to ordinary men. As I see Dutch police wipe away violent protests with much less (only handguns), I'd say they are definately not ok with 1000 neonazi's on their doorstep.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 28, 2022, 05:48:39 PM
Now AZOV battalion is only 1000 men. They would not exist except for Russia invasions. This invasion is not justified because of so called Nazis. All countries that Russia does not like are called Nazis at different times. This dude Marje claims still supports the Azov battalion is only work a 100 million. Though it is a lot of money for an induvial it does not buy much of an army in today's world and I am sure he did not give it all away. This is just an excuse to invade Ukraine. No one here has made any claims that would show the Nazis in Ukraine have done .01 percent of damage and death the Russian army has done. There are Nazi in every country including yours no matter which one it is. So maybe Russia should invade your home country. I do Photoshop work. Flags can be added to any picture. It is not prof of anything.

Ah so now AZOV are indeed neo-nazi but they are only 1000 men. We're making progress. Someone else can debunk those theories I've had enough of this nonsense. They exist, fact. They are neonazi's , fact. They themselves call themselves neonazi's , fact. Those are not in denial.

So how dangerous are 1000 men with their own high-powered rifles, army-stuff and barracks compared to ordinary men. As I see Dutch police wipe away violent protests with much less (only handguns), I'd say they are definately not ok with 1000 neonazi's on their doorstep.

AZOV only has about 200 Nazis. But Russia has 200,000 pro Nazi invaders carrying out its war to cleans the Ukraine of 200. You do not see the problem!!!
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification video of prisoners being shot
Post by: Lon on March 28, 2022, 07:33:03 PM
instead of talking about ducks, posting group photos or photos of tattoos...
what is this?

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification video of prisoners being shot
Post by: yankee on March 28, 2022, 08:27:08 PM
instead of talking about ducks, posting group photos or photos of tattoos...
what is this?


youtube will not let me see it.  Perhaps you should tell me what it is.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 28, 2022, 08:35:16 PM
Russian military shooting prisoner of war.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification video of prisoners being shot
Post by: Lord of the Dance on March 28, 2022, 08:35:37 PM
youtube will not let me see it.  Perhaps you should tell me what it is.

You need to be logged into your YouTube account or a YouTube-linked google account to view. The video is purporting to show Ukrainian soldiers shooting captured Russian soldiers in the knees.

Anymore I don't know what to believe, but my (perhaps foolish) logic is to give content like this the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. I keep going back to the old saying, "All is fair in love and war." By the time you're shooting at each other, everything goes (i.e. show no mercy). It's a pity, but seems to be the way of it in these things.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lord of the Dance on March 28, 2022, 08:41:34 PM
Russian military shooting prisoner of war.

If this is in reference to the video link that Lon posted directly above, I think they're claiming the opposite of what you're saying here. These are apparently Ukrainian troops shooting Russian POWs at close range.

(here's the YouTube video title)

"GRAPHIC! This video is alleged to show Ukrainian forces SHOOTING RUSSIAN PRISONERS OF WAR"
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on March 28, 2022, 09:34:16 PM
Russian military shooting prisoner of war.

This is stooping to a new low. 
instead of talking about ducks, posting group photos or photos of tattoos...
what is this?


youtube will not let me see it.  Perhaps you should tell me what it is.

My wife has a copy of this video.  The soldiers that have been shot in the legs and beaten are russian soldiers.  the Ukrainians that have perpetrated this crime have already been identified.  Would you like me to send their pictures to you?

Oh, they are speaking Russian but with heavy Ukraine accents.

We have several other videos of Ukrainians (azov) killing/stabing/shooting Russian POWs
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on March 28, 2022, 11:46:46 PM
Guys, here it is again. 40 Democrats signed a letter asking the Trump administration to label white nationalists neo nazis groups in Ukraine as terrorists.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200130033931/https://maxrose.house.gov/uploadedfiles/2019.10.16_rose_fto_letter_to_state.pdf

Back in 2018-19 you can search for all kinds of left leaning media articles saying Ukraine has a real problem with far right neo nazi groups.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/

The politicians and media that tells us Ukraine doesn't have a neo nazi problem said in the past there is a growing neo nazi program in Ukraine and asked Trump to do something about it. The Democrats/Liberals on this forum should be happy Putin is doing something about it.

Russia has not only talked to Western nations in private about their concerns, they made it public but the Western media refused to relay it to us so many of us ignorant folk think Russia has no reason to invade Ukraine.

6 months ago Russia voiced concerns about American biolabs being built all over the world besides the ones built in Ukraine. Russia's concerns are valid. So far with the coronavirus released, the US funded biolabs have killed and harmed more people than helped.

https://tass.com/politics/1340479?utm_source=google.com&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=google.com&utm_referrer=google.com

5 months ago Putin says NATO is ignoring Russia's red lines. One can find many articles talking about Russia's concerns yet most educated by msm have never heard of these concerns. If the West has nothing to hide, they shouldn't cross red lines, keep their promise not to expand NATO towards Russia and invite Russia into the biolabs and even offer them benefit of new medicines if discovered. The denial and lack of transparency of what is going on in those labs makes Putin want to force his way in to see for himself.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/putin-accuses-nato-of-ignoring-russian-warnings-about-red-lines
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 29, 2022, 03:32:00 AM
Russian military shooting prisoner of war.

Ah so all of a sudden it’s clear to see.

I blamed your sources and the media you read but it’s simply that you don’t understand what you read. Moby had this problem too.

We can both read the same article and yet you’ll come away believing something completely different. This is a great example of that. You literally watched Ukrainian soldiers shooting Russian POW's.....and you think it’s the opposite.  :chuckle:

So I think we can now all agree that war is horrific and war crimes are allegedly being committed on all sides. That YouTube video is shocking. Shooting bound prisoners having surrendered is one way to give Russia some motivation. Recording it is even more stupid.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 29, 2022, 04:29:11 AM
There's also footage on Twitter and everywhere else of a Ukrainian soldier using a dead Russian soldier's phone to video call his family and gloat showing them his body.

Another one is a woman in a basement where they cut her hands off and carved the swastika on her dead body, or painted it on in her blood, one or the other.

There's a lot of very grim stuff perpetrated by Nazis in Ukraine circulating and some of it is even making its way into western media.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 29, 2022, 08:16:01 AM
There's also footage on Twitter and everywhere else of a Ukrainian soldier using a dead Russian soldier's phone to video call his family and gloat showing them his body.

Another one is a woman in a basement where they cut her hands off and carved the swastika on her dead body, or painted it on in her blood, one or the other.

There's a lot of very grim stuff perpetrated by Nazis in Ukraine circulating and some of it is even making its way into western media.

I heard about the phone one.

No doubt about it, some absolutely horrifying things have happened, including Polish dudes raping Ukrainian refugees they've hosted. I just think as a soldier, there would be some kind of camaraderie going on because they're just young blokes being told to serve and it could be you on the ground in cuffs, next week. When you start doing stuff like that, the other side hears about it and it goes down hill very quickly.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on March 30, 2022, 02:00:00 AM

My wife has a copy of this video.  The soldiers that have been shot in the legs and beaten are russian soldiers.  the Ukrainians that have perpetrated this crime have already been identified.  Would you like me to send their pictures to you?

Oh, they are speaking Russian but with heavy Ukraine accents.

We have several other videos of Ukrainians (azov) killing/stabing/shooting Russian POWs

NO this is just a movie that has been staged. It is something that bothered me from the beginning who would let such a video to be made. It is obvious that everyone knew this was being done and it is too perfect. It is design to scare Russia solders from giving up and to be part of the information war. It is the same with the pictures of Nazis on social media. The Nazi flag with Azov flag added to background are to make the pictures look bad when there is nothing more than a photo opt of just troops. Russia media has done this before in Donbas when they are trying to say Ukraine is killing civilians by hiring actors. In all likely hood all you have is a collection of Russian propaganda films.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 30, 2022, 02:20:02 AM
You’ve lost the plot Tex.

The BBC have run an article under their reality check section, where they attempt to proof check numerous claims made throughout the war. In this link you’ll read what the experts say regarding the shootings of POW’s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60907259

Every single thing points towards it being absolutely true, much to the annoyance of the BBC who continually try and leave a gap of uncertainty, even though the facts they find, point to war crimes by Ukrainian soldiers.

I get it, you’re upset with the Russians but FFS stop sticking your head in the sand and denying reality. You’ve become someone who’s pointless to engage with, airing bizarre fictional fantasies to align with your pre determined opinions. You’re living in a parallel universe.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 30, 2022, 03:11:34 AM
The video, among others of similar ilk have been extensively shown in Russia, China and India on public media.

Given the nature of the videos, I rather doubt that with current restrictions on media in Russia regarding the veracity of information, that the broadcasters would show them unless they had high level confirmation that the videos are genuine.

Also, we have plenty of corroborating material confirming an acceptance and support of brutality from Ukrainian broadcasters who are even more heavily controlled.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 30, 2022, 05:47:26 AM
While not a big fan of e.mail news, this one caught my eye. Some poster noted that in war, the first casualty is the truth.

Deepfake Videos Spreading Misinformation on Zelenskyy, Putin

(NewsGlobal.com)- Both pro-Russian and pro-Ukraine forces are making the most of social media to launch disinformation operations on the war in Ukraine. And while social media has tried to remove much of the disinformation disseminated in this information warfare, some online security experts fear social media will not be able to keep up with it in time to avoid any possible damage.

According to the BBC, a deep-fake video purportedly showing Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky telling the people to lay down their weapons was spotted by many Ukrainians and prompted Zelensky to post a response to his Instagram account calling the video “childish provocation.”

YouTube and Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, have removed the offending video from their platforms.

Nathanial Gleicher, Meta’s security-policy head explained in a Twitter thread that the company “quickly reviewed and removed” the Zelensky video for violating its policy prohibiting manipulated or misleading media. According to Gleicher, the video initially appeared on a “reportedly compromised website” before it went viral.

Another fake video featuring Russian President Vladimir Putin appeared on Twitter showing Putin declaring peace.

The Ukrainian Center for Strategic Communications warned that the Kremlin may try to use such videos to convince the Ukrainian people to surrender.

According to Nina Schick, the author of the book “Deepfakes,” while the current fake videos are crudely made and easy to spot, that may not be the case “in the near future.” Schick told the BBC that these videos may “erode trust in authentic media” by leading people to doubt everything they see.

The BBC’s Shayan Sardarizadeh, who analyzed the fake Zelensky video, described it as one of “the worst I’ve ever seen.” Like Schick, he warned that there will be others that make their way on social media that may not be as easy to spot as fakes.

Information warfare has always existed in war. In many ways, dropping fake videos on the social media masses is no different from dropping leaflets on civilians or soldiers during World War Two.

The social media age has simply given way to more technologically savvy versions of the same kind of information warfare. Now disinformation drops can reach millions upon millions of people without expending an ounce of fuel or a single scrap of paper.





Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on March 30, 2022, 08:58:09 AM
What if Putin Didn’t Miscalculate?
Quote from Article
"Suppose for a moment that Putin never intended to conquer all of Ukraine:
that, from the beginning, his real targets were the energy riches of Ukraine’s
east, which contain Europe’s second-largest known reserves of natural gas
(after Norway’s).

Combine that with Russia’s previous territorial seizures in Crimea (which
has huge offshore energy fields) and the eastern provinces of Luhansk and
Donetsk (which contain part of an enormous shale-gas field), as well as
Putin’s bid to control most or all of Ukraine’s coastline, and the shape of
Putin’s ambitions become clear. He’s less interested in reuniting the
Russian-speaking world than he is in securing Russia’s energy dominance.

“Under the guise of an invasion, Putin is executing an enormous heist,”
said Canadian energy expert David Knight Legg. As for what’s left of a
mostly landlocked Ukraine, it will likely become a welfare case for the West,
which will help pick up the tab for resettling Ukraine’s refugees to new
homes outside of Russian control."

read the entire article here
https://dnyuz.com/2022/03/29/what-if-putin-didnt-miscalculate/

Remember when Putin attacked Georgia he gained nearly 1/2 of the Black Sea
Coastline in the aftermath. This was always about getting more gas resources
and reserves and never about a few tattooed Nazi's marching with jackboots.

Only the extremely gullible believe that Putin cares about Nazi's in other countries.
He doesn't even care about Nazi's in Russia, rather he embraces them if they
do his bidding.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 30, 2022, 11:47:03 AM
You’ve lost the plot Tex.

The BBC have run an article under their reality check section, where they attempt to proof check numerous claims made throughout the war. In this link you’ll read what the experts say regarding the shootings of POW’s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60907259

Every single thing points towards it being absolutely true, much to the annoyance of the BBC who continually try and leave a gap of uncertainty, even though the facts they find, point to war crimes by Ukrainian soldiers.



Actually he's right on the money. This sort of thing is classic for a former KGB officer and the former Soviet routinely blamed things which they did on their enemies. The most obvious was the murder of 23,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Massacre which they attempted to blame on the Germans. They did not admit the truth until 1990. Then there were the brutal murders of about 10,000 civilians in Vinnitsya by the NKVD who the Soviets attempted to blame on the Germans. There were an additional approximate 30,000 quickly murdered mostly in West Ukraine as the Germans were advancing.

And more recently were the apartment bombings blamed on Chechens by a much younger Putin. There was obvious FSB involvement in that.

https://www.hudson.org/research/12750-vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible


Look how quickly the video was shared on TV in China, India and Russia to try to smear the Ukrainians.

If Ukrainian soldiers did do it, you can be sure they will be held to account. As opposed to receiving a medal in private back in Russia for those who participated in this "operation"; no matter how heinous their methods were.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 31, 2022, 03:33:13 AM
You’ve lost the plot Tex.

The BBC have run an article under their reality check section, where they attempt to proof check numerous claims made throughout the war. In this link you’ll read what the experts say regarding the shootings of POW’s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60907259

Every single thing points towards it being absolutely true, much to the annoyance of the BBC who continually try and leave a gap of uncertainty, even though the facts they find, point to war crimes by Ukrainian soldiers.



Actually he's right on the money. This sort of thing is classic for a former KGB officer and the former Soviet routinely blamed things which they did on their enemies. The most obvious was the murder of 23,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Massacre which they attempted to blame on the Germans. They did not admit the truth until 1990. Then there were the brutal murders of about 10,000 civilians in Vinnitsya by the NKVD who the Soviets attempted to blame on the Germans. There were an additional approximate 30,000 quickly murdered mostly in West Ukraine as the Germans were advancing.

And more recently were the apartment bombings blamed on Chechens by a much younger Putin. There was obvious FSB involvement in that.

https://www.hudson.org/research/12750-vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible


Look how quickly the video was shared on TV in China, India and Russia to try to smear the Ukrainians.

If Ukrainian soldiers did do it, you can be sure they will be held to account. As opposed to receiving a medal in private back in Russia for those who participated in this "operation"; no matter how heinous their methods were.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

I’m not suggesting that staged stuff similar to this doesn’t go into production.

I’m saying that all the available evidence points towards Russian POW abuse and/or war crimes. The Geneva conventions pretty clear on that and you’d imagine Ukraine would be trying to play with the western rule book to keep favour

Tex on the other hand watches it, automatically sees the opposite and then having been cornered, suggests it’s staged as propaganda. If anyone read the truth watch link I posted from the BBC, it’s pretty damning.

Some folks on this forum refuse to accept reality because their Ukrainian alignment is so extreme. Accepting that the above in all probability actually happened, doesn’t make you less pro Ukrainian with your support.

Instead it’s child like emotional behaviour.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 31, 2022, 03:43:07 AM
In support of the fact that Ukraine forces have been torturing Russian prisoners is that the Kiev regime has been making statements that its forces should not mistreat prisoners.

The very fact that the Ukraine government felt this was necessary stands in support of the reality of torture and killings by Ukrainian forces.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 31, 2022, 03:51:50 AM
More allegedly nonexistent Nazis.

https://twitter.com/a__alimov/status/1508733926046642177?s=21&t=Ire8IGZNqH5RBqbCBND12g

People have mixed views about Bellingcat, but this seems quite well researched:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukraines-ministry-of-veterans-affairs-embraced-the-far-right-with-consequences-to-the-u-s/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on March 31, 2022, 04:02:05 AM
Given what Bellingcat is and to whom they report, one wonders who commissioned and paid for that report?

Why would British intelligence and by extension the UK government choose to bring this stuff to the notice of the UK public?

This tells us that something is going on in the halls of power.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 31, 2022, 04:11:10 AM
You’ve lost the plot Tex.

The BBC have run an article under their reality check section, where they attempt to proof check numerous claims made throughout the war. In this link you’ll read what the experts say regarding the shootings of POW’s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60907259

Every single thing points towards it being absolutely true, much to the annoyance of the BBC who continually try and leave a gap of uncertainty, even though the facts they find, point to war crimes by Ukrainian soldiers.



Actually he's right on the money. This sort of thing is classic for a former KGB officer and the former Soviet routinely blamed things which they did on their enemies. The most obvious was the murder of 23,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Massacre which they attempted to blame on the Germans. They did not admit the truth until 1990. Then there were the brutal murders of about 10,000 civilians in Vinnitsya by the NKVD who the Soviets attempted to blame on the Germans. There were an additional approximate 30,000 quickly murdered mostly in West Ukraine as the Germans were advancing.

And more recently were the apartment bombings blamed on Chechens by a much younger Putin. There was obvious FSB involvement in that.

https://www.hudson.org/research/12750-vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible


Look how quickly the video was shared on TV in China, India and Russia to try to smear the Ukrainians.

If Ukrainian soldiers did do it, you can be sure they will be held to account. As opposed to receiving a medal in private back in Russia for those who participated in this "operation"; no matter how heinous their methods were.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

I’m not suggesting that staged stuff similar to this doesn’t go into production.

I’m saying that all the available evidence points towards Russian POW abuse and/or war crimes. The Geneva conventions pretty clear on that and you’d imagine Ukraine would be trying to play with the western rule book to keep favour

Tex on the other hand watches it, automatically sees the opposite and then having been cornered, suggests it’s staged as propaganda. If anyone read the truth watch link I posted from the BBC, it’s pretty damning.

Some folks on this forum refuse to accept reality because their Ukrainian alignment is so extreme. Accepting that the above in all probability actually happened, doesn’t make you less pro Ukrainian with your support.

Instead it’s child like emotional behaviour.


I respect your opinion however in my case I reject your statement that my response is "childlike emotional behavior".

Tex can answer back to you if he wishes. I believe that video was planned in advance to scare Russian soldiers into fighting harder.

Because Putin does not care about some guys getting injured he had Ukrainian speaking FSB guys shoot them for real and filmed the whole thing for quick release.

In fact the Russians always had NKVD who would shoot deserters during WWII. The ones in the front knew that the political ones behind them during WWII had no problem murdering them on the spot if the tried to retreat. So they were forced ahead in large numbers, mowed down and then just left there. Where as the Germans in the Wehrmacht were NOT Nazi's but were professional soldiers, had officers who would often order retreats in order to live and fight another day. Even now today the Russians are leaving their dead all over Ukraine for stray dogs to eat as they still have the mindset that the lives of their soldiers don't really matter.

IF Ukrainians did it, it was brutal and definitely wrong and they should be prosecuted.

It's fascinating to me though that you never seem to wish to admit that Putin himself is responsible for the bloodshed, he invaded a sovereign country which has a right to live in peace. Not once but three times now. First Crimea, then parts of Donbas and now the whole country.

In the video both sides are soldiers yet you ignore all the civilians deliberately murdered in cold blood.

5,000 and counting in Mariupol including over 200 children are dead by deliberate bombing of civilian targets. Over 100,000 civilians still trapped with no food, water or medicine. Have you ever really thought how that would feel? Have you ever really thought how angry you would be if another larger country did this to your family?

Lots of arrogance and indifference to human lives and suffering coming from the pro-Putin group. Lots of deflection and eagerness to believe propaganda.



Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 31, 2022, 04:14:40 AM
More allegedly nonexistent Nazis.

https://twitter.com/a__alimov/status/1508733926046642177?s=21&t=Ire8IGZNqH5RBqbCBND12g

People have mixed views about Bellingcat, but this seems quite well researched:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukraines-ministry-of-veterans-affairs-embraced-the-far-right-with-consequences-to-the-u-s/


You are desperate. You cannot see clearly.

Only one man created the situation and that's your hero, the dictator Putin who has destroyed the peace which Europe had since the end of WWII.

Just take a look at a once very beautiful city leveled to rubbish in indiscriminate bombing by your cowardly hero.

https://news.yahoo.com/photos-mariupol-before-the-war-183153935.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: rosco on March 31, 2022, 04:32:22 AM
You’ve lost the plot Tex.

The BBC have run an article under their reality check section, where they attempt to proof check numerous claims made throughout the war. In this link you’ll read what the experts say regarding the shootings of POW’s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60907259

Every single thing points towards it being absolutely true, much to the annoyance of the BBC who continually try and leave a gap of uncertainty, even though the facts they find, point to war crimes by Ukrainian soldiers.



Actually he's right on the money. This sort of thing is classic for a former KGB officer and the former Soviet routinely blamed things which they did on their enemies. The most obvious was the murder of 23,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Massacre which they attempted to blame on the Germans. They did not admit the truth until 1990. Then there were the brutal murders of about 10,000 civilians in Vinnitsya by the NKVD who the Soviets attempted to blame on the Germans. There were an additional approximate 30,000 quickly murdered mostly in West Ukraine as the Germans were advancing.

And more recently were the apartment bombings blamed on Chechens by a much younger Putin. There was obvious FSB involvement in that.

https://www.hudson.org/research/12750-vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible


Look how quickly the video was shared on TV in China, India and Russia to try to smear the Ukrainians.

If Ukrainian soldiers did do it, you can be sure they will be held to account. As opposed to receiving a medal in private back in Russia for those who participated in this "operation"; no matter how heinous their methods were.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

I’m not suggesting that staged stuff similar to this doesn’t go into production.

I’m saying that all the available evidence points towards Russian POW abuse and/or war crimes. The Geneva conventions pretty clear on that and you’d imagine Ukraine would be trying to play with the western rule book to keep favour

Tex on the other hand watches it, automatically sees the opposite and then having been cornered, suggests it’s staged as propaganda. If anyone read the truth watch link I posted from the BBC, it’s pretty damning.

Some folks on this forum refuse to accept reality because their Ukrainian alignment is so extreme. Accepting that the above in all probability actually happened, doesn’t make you less pro Ukrainian with your support.

Instead it’s child like emotional behaviour.


I respect your opinion however in my case I reject your statement that my response is "childlike emotional behavior".

Tex can answer back to you if he wishes. I believe that video was planned in advance to scare Russian soldiers into fighting harder.

Because Putin does not care about some guys getting injured he had Ukrainian speaking FSB guys shoot them for real and filmed the whole thing for quick release.

In fact the Russians always had NKVD who would shoot deserters during WWII. The ones in the front knew that the political ones behind them during WWII had no problem murdering them on the spot if the tried to retreated. So they were forced ahead in large numbers, mowed down and then just left there. Where as the Germans in the Wehrmacht, who were NOT Nazi's but were professional soldiers, had officers who would often allow or order retreats, in order to live and fight another day. Even now today the Russians are leaving their dead all over Ukraine as they still have the mindset that the lives of their soldiers don't really matter.

IF Ukrainians did it, it was brutal and definitely wrong and they should be prosecuted.

It's fascinating to me though that you never seem to wish to admit that Putin himself is responsible for the bloodshed, he invaded a sovereign country which has a right to live in peace. Not once but three times now. First Crimea, then parts of Donbas and now the whole country.

In the video both sides are soldiers yet you ignore all the civilians deliberately murdered in cold blood.

5,000 and counting in Mariopel including over 200 children are dead by deliberate bombing of civilian targets. Over 100,000 civilians still trapped with no food, water or medicine. Have you ever really thought how that would feel? Have you ever really thought how angry you would be if another larger country did this to your family?

Lots of arrogance and indifference to human lives and suffering coming from the pro-Putin group. Lots of deflection and eagerness to believe propaganda.

To be clear, my comment regarding child like emotional behaviour, was reference to Tex and a couple of others who continue to have emotional outbursts and refuse to accept facts, even when its presented via pretty accurate sources. An adult would digest and then say yea, I'm pro Ukraine but that's not right either.

I think I've also been pretty vocal when it comes to condemning the war and the huge loss of infrastructure and life, which has become the cause and effect. For your benefit I'll say it again, my heart goes out to everyone caught in the middle of the atrocities that have and are happening. I have some friends who have fled Ukraine and are in bits with the current state of their country. Having seen this never mind what the media shows us, it's impossible to support the conflict given its the innocent people who suffer.

I also said two things that are mutually exclusive. First of all I don't support the conflict or the Russian aggression. This should have been sorted out between the men at the top, over an expensive table. Secondly, I understand why we ended up with this conflict happening. This isn't simply Putin being an arsehole and anyone who believes that, is again in denial of reality.

When I see photo's of dead Ukrainians or destroyed houses, schools and hospitals, I don't automatically claim it to be propaganda or deny its existence. However, I do question the media's role in how its being reported.

Hopefully that makes sense.....
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 31, 2022, 04:53:57 AM
Given what Bellingcat is and to whom they report, one wonders who commissioned and paid for that report?

Why would British intelligence and by extension the UK government choose to bring this stuff to the notice of the UK public?

This tells us that something is going on in the halls of power.

Maybe they're preparing to throw Zelensky under the bus?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 31, 2022, 04:58:01 AM
More allegedly nonexistent Nazis.

https://twitter.com/a__alimov/status/1508733926046642177?s=21&t=Ire8IGZNqH5RBqbCBND12g

People have mixed views about Bellingcat, but this seems quite well researched:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukraines-ministry-of-veterans-affairs-embraced-the-far-right-with-consequences-to-the-u-s/


You are desperate. You cannot see clearly.

Only one man created the situation and that's your hero, the dictator Putin who has destroyed the peace which Europe had since the end of WWII.

Of course. No Nazis. No sir. Nothing to see there.  :whist11:

Just take a look at a once very beautiful city leveled to rubbish in indiscriminate bombing by your cowardly hero.

There is no "indiscriminate" bombing. You think that because you think Yahoo is news. That's where the Azov you support and/or deny are. They're digging in. There will be little left of that city probably.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Faux Pas on March 31, 2022, 06:28:39 AM

Maybe they're preparing to throw Zelensky under the bus?

Zelensky isn't a player, he's a puppet. Fodder in the conflict for his masters and a mere piece on the chess board of this conflict. IMO, for those paying attention the invasion of Ukraine has never actually been about Ukraine but, just where the confrontation is being played out. NATO is the army of the UN and more specifically the Rothchilds central bank. Russia is one of the few countries without a Rothchilds central bank but by far the most powerful country without a Rothchilds central bank. NATO has been pressing Russia since at least 2005 to come to heel and accept their petrol American dollar. Putin has refused.

Since Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Russia's own Ruble is becoming gold backed and the currency for which to purchase Russian gas and oil of which Europe desperately needs. Think of what has happened to other heads of countries who have attempted to subvert the petrol dollar and trade in gold? Chavez, Khadaffi, Hussein.

IME Puttin is attacking the Rothchilds dollar. If Putin never trades with the West again it doesn't matter. He has China, India and Brazil ready to trade in gold and Europe lusting for Russia's resources. What I see is Putin having Europe and the Rothchilds Bank by the balls. To the point that their probably last response is to lob or threaten to lob a nuke Russia's way. It's about to get very interesting.

Zelensky is just a comic and an actor playing his part. His usefulness is likely about to expire
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 31, 2022, 06:30:02 AM
Just take a look at a once very beautiful city leveled to rubbish in indiscriminate bombing by your cowardly hero.

There is no "indiscriminate" bombing. You think that because you think Yahoo is news. That's where the Azov you support and/or deny are. They're digging in. There will be little left of that city probably.

Let’s be PC and call it urban renewal.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 31, 2022, 07:12:02 AM
You’ve lost the plot Tex.

The BBC have run an article under their reality check section, where they attempt to proof check numerous claims made throughout the war. In this link you’ll read what the experts say regarding the shootings of POW’s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60907259

Every single thing points towards it being absolutely true, much to the annoyance of the BBC who continually try and leave a gap of uncertainty, even though the facts they find, point to war crimes by Ukrainian soldiers.



Actually he's right on the money. This sort of thing is classic for a former KGB officer and the former Soviet routinely blamed things which they did on their enemies. The most obvious was the murder of 23,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Massacre which they attempted to blame on the Germans. They did not admit the truth until 1990. Then there were the brutal murders of about 10,000 civilians in Vinnitsya by the NKVD who the Soviets attempted to blame on the Germans. There were an additional approximate 30,000 quickly murdered mostly in West Ukraine as the Germans were advancing.

And more recently were the apartment bombings blamed on Chechens by a much younger Putin. There was obvious FSB involvement in that.

https://www.hudson.org/research/12750-vladimir-putin-1999-russian-apartment-house-bombings-was-putin-responsible


Look how quickly the video was shared on TV in China, India and Russia to try to smear the Ukrainians.

If Ukrainian soldiers did do it, you can be sure they will be held to account. As opposed to receiving a medal in private back in Russia for those who participated in this "operation"; no matter how heinous their methods were.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

I’m not suggesting that staged stuff similar to this doesn’t go into production.

I’m saying that all the available evidence points towards Russian POW abuse and/or war crimes. The Geneva conventions pretty clear on that and you’d imagine Ukraine would be trying to play with the western rule book to keep favour

Tex on the other hand watches it, automatically sees the opposite and then having been cornered, suggests it’s staged as propaganda. If anyone read the truth watch link I posted from the BBC, it’s pretty damning.

Some folks on this forum refuse to accept reality because their Ukrainian alignment is so extreme. Accepting that the above in all probability actually happened, doesn’t make you less pro Ukrainian with your support.

Instead it’s child like emotional behaviour.


I respect your opinion however in my case I reject your statement that my response is "childlike emotional behavior".

Tex can answer back to you if he wishes. I believe that video was planned in advance to scare Russian soldiers into fighting harder.

Because Putin does not care about some guys getting injured he had Ukrainian speaking FSB guys shoot them for real and filmed the whole thing for quick release.

In fact the Russians always had NKVD who would shoot deserters during WWII. The ones in the front knew that the political ones behind them during WWII had no problem murdering them on the spot if the tried to retreated. So they were forced ahead in large numbers, mowed down and then just left there. Where as the Germans in the Wehrmacht, who were NOT Nazi's but were professional soldiers, had officers who would often allow or order retreats, in order to live and fight another day. Even now today the Russians are leaving their dead all over Ukraine as they still have the mindset that the lives of their soldiers don't really matter.

IF Ukrainians did it, it was brutal and definitely wrong and they should be prosecuted.

It's fascinating to me though that you never seem to wish to admit that Putin himself is responsible for the bloodshed, he invaded a sovereign country which has a right to live in peace. Not once but three times now. First Crimea, then parts of Donbas and now the whole country.

In the video both sides are soldiers yet you ignore all the civilians deliberately murdered in cold blood.

5,000 and counting in Mariopel including over 200 children are dead by deliberate bombing of civilian targets. Over 100,000 civilians still trapped with no food, water or medicine. Have you ever really thought how that would feel? Have you ever really thought how angry you would be if another larger country did this to your family?

Lots of arrogance and indifference to human lives and suffering coming from the pro-Putin group. Lots of deflection and eagerness to believe propaganda.

To be clear, my comment regarding child like emotional behaviour, was reference to Tex and a couple of others who continue to have emotional outbursts and refuse to accept facts, even when its presented via pretty accurate sources. An adult would digest and then say yea, I'm pro Ukraine but that's not right either.

I think I've also been pretty vocal when it comes to condemning the war and the huge loss of infrastructure and life, which has become the cause and effect. For your benefit I'll say it again, my heart goes out to everyone caught in the middle of the atrocities that have and are happening. I have some friends who have fled Ukraine and are in bits with the current state of their country. Having seen this never mind what the media shows us, it's impossible to support the conflict given its the innocent people who suffer.

I also said two things that are mutually exclusive. First of all I don't support the conflict or the Russian aggression. This should have been sorted out between the men at the top, over an expensive table. Secondly, I understand why we ended up with this conflict happening. This isn't simply Putin being an arsehole and anyone who believes that, is again in denial of reality.

When I see photo's of dead Ukrainians or destroyed houses, schools and hospitals, I don't automatically claim it to be propaganda or deny its existence. However, I do question the media's role in how its being reported.

Hopefully that makes sense.....

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 31, 2022, 07:24:44 AM
More allegedly nonexistent Nazis.

https://twitter.com/a__alimov/status/1508733926046642177?s=21&t=Ire8IGZNqH5RBqbCBND12g

People have mixed views about Bellingcat, but this seems quite well researched:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukraines-ministry-of-veterans-affairs-embraced-the-far-right-with-consequences-to-the-u-s/


You are desperate. You cannot see clearly.

Only one man created the situation and that's your hero, the dictator Putin who has destroyed the peace which Europe had since the end of WWII.

Of course. No Nazis. No sir. Nothing to see there.  :whist11:

Just take a look at a once very beautiful city leveled to rubbish in indiscriminate bombing by your cowardly hero.

There is no "indiscriminate" bombing. You think that because you think Yahoo is news. That's where the Azov you support and/or deny are. They're digging in. There will be little left of that city probably.


You are completely delusional and you lack a moral compass. I support no warmongers and I support none like you who support warmongers. I have also repeatedly denounced Bush Jr. and others.

That bombing is not only indiscriminate it is deliberate. You're like a wind-up monkey repeating the talking points for your paymaster the Kremlin which is fueled by anger, hatred, resentment and pride. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on March 31, 2022, 07:32:53 AM
I think I've also been pretty vocal when it comes to condemning the war and the huge loss of infrastructure and life, which has become the cause and effect. For your benefit I'll say it again, my heart goes out to everyone caught in the middle of the atrocities that have and are happening. I have some friends who have fled Ukraine and are in bits with the current state of their country. Having seen this never mind what the media shows us, it's impossible to support the conflict given its the innocent people who suffer.

I also said two things that are mutually exclusive. First of all I don't support the conflict or the Russian aggression. This should have been sorted out between the men at the top, over an expensive table. Secondly, I understand why we ended up with this conflict happening. This isn't simply Putin being an arsehole and anyone who believes that, is again in denial of reality.

When I see photo's of dead Ukrainians or destroyed houses, schools and hospitals, I don't automatically claim it to be propaganda or deny its existence. However, I do question the media's role in how its being reported.

Hopefully that makes sense.....

Indeed it makes sense!

Yes I believe the aggrieved party is Ukraine. Throw some intractable, stubborn and egotistical leaders in the pot and looking at Ukraine, we can see the price pawns pay.

One thing I will note Ukraine will rebuild, because that is the nature of Ukrainians.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on March 31, 2022, 10:22:40 AM
More allegedly nonexistent Nazis.

https://twitter.com/a__alimov/status/1508733926046642177?s=21&t=Ire8IGZNqH5RBqbCBND12g

People have mixed views about Bellingcat, but this seems quite well researched:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukraines-ministry-of-veterans-affairs-embraced-the-far-right-with-consequences-to-the-u-s/


You are desperate. You cannot see clearly.

Only one man created the situation and that's your hero, the dictator Putin who has destroyed the peace which Europe had since the end of WWII.

Of course. No Nazis. No sir. Nothing to see there.  :whist11:

Just take a look at a once very beautiful city leveled to rubbish in indiscriminate bombing by your cowardly hero.

There is no "indiscriminate" bombing. You think that because you think Yahoo is news. That's where the Azov you support and/or deny are. They're digging in. There will be little left of that city probably.


You are completely delusional and you lack a moral compass. I support no warmongers and I support none like you who support warmongers. I have also repeatedly denounced Bush Jr. and others.

That bombing is not only indiscriminate it is deliberate. You're like a wind-up monkey repeating the talking points for your paymaster the Kremlin which is fueled by anger, hatred, resentment and pride.

I should not have said "completely delusional" and I apologize for that. You know what you are doing.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on March 31, 2022, 10:51:23 AM

Maybe they're preparing to throw Zelensky under the bus?

Zelensky isn't a player, he's a puppet. Fodder in the conflict for his masters and a mere piece on the chess board of this conflict. IMO, for those paying attention the invasion of Ukraine has never actually been about Ukraine but, just where the confrontation is being played out. NATO is the army of the UN and more specifically the Rothchilds central bank. Russia is one of the few countries without a Rothchilds central bank but by far the most powerful country without a Rothchilds central bank. NATO has been pressing Russia since at least 2005 to come to heel and accept their petrol American dollar. Putin has refused.

Since Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Russia's own Ruble is becoming gold backed and the currency for which to purchase Russian gas and oil of which Europe desperately needs. Think of what has happened to other heads of countries who have attempted to subvert the petrol dollar and trade in gold? Chavez, Khadaffi, Hussein.

IME Puttin is attacking the Rothchilds dollar. If Putin never trades with the West again it doesn't matter. He has China, India and Brazil ready to trade in gold and Europe lusting for Russia's resources. What I see is Putin having Europe and the Rothchilds Bank by the balls. To the point that their probably last response is to lob or threaten to lob a nuke Russia's way. It's about to get very interesting.

Zelensky is just a comic and an actor playing his part. His usefulness is likely about to expire

I agree with all that. Why I thought the Bellingcat thing was interesting. He's about to be dumped perhaps. His FL mansion is waiting.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on March 31, 2022, 11:03:55 AM
To be frank, my impression is that Russia is using Nazi's as a reason to go into Ukraine, but what do they REALLY care about a small % of nazi's being in Ukraine....   I think they want resources, and to not play by the West's rules...and I don't blame them. 

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 03, 2022, 11:58:34 AM
Here's an article from 2014. I don't agree with some of the opinions entwined within, but it's accurate in terms of the basic facts (apart from McFaul being a scholar):

Yes, There Are Bad Guys in the Ukrainian Government

It's time for a frank conversation about some of the unsavory characters in Kiev.

Vladimir Putin insists Russia invaded Crimea to protect the ethnic Russians who live in that southern Ukrainian territory. Ukraine, the Russian president contends, has come under the control of "neo-Nazis and Nazis and anti-Semites," and the country’s Russian population is under threat. It is easy to dismiss Putin’s rhetoric — he is, after all, a serial fibber and fabricator who conflates gays and pedophiles and heads a state where Cossacks gas and whip punk rockers in broad daylight. But while Western governments and pundits are correct to dismiss Putin’s pretenses for invading Ukraine, they are wrong to presume his Ukrainian opponents are necessarily in the right.

The uncomfortable truth is that a sizeable portion of Kiev’s current government — and the protesters who brought it to power — are, indeed, fascists. If Western governments hope to steer Ukraine clear from the most unsavory characters in Moscow and Kiev, they will need to wage a two-pronged diplomatic offensive: against Putin’s propaganda and, at the same time, against Ukraine’s resurgent far-right.

Ukraine is home to Svoboda, arguably Europe’s most influential far-right movement today. (In the photo above, Svoboda activists seize a Ministry of Agriculture building during Kiev’s Euromaidan protests in January.) Party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is on record complaining that his country is controlled by a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia," while his deputy derided the Ukrainian-born film star Mila Kunis as a "dirty Jewess." In Svoboda’s eyes, gays are perverts and black people unfit to represent the nation at Eurovision, lest viewers come away thinking Ukraine is somewhere besides Uganda.

Svoboda began life in the mid-90s as the Social-National Party (a name deliberately redolent of the National Socialist Party, better known as Nazis), with its logo the fascist Wolfsangel. In 2004, the party gave itself an unobjectionable new name (Svoboda means "Freedom") and canned the Nazi imagery, and in the subsequent decade has seen its star swiftly rise.

Today, Svoboda holds a larger chunk of its nation’s ministries (nearly a quarter, including the prized defense portfolio) than any other far-right party on the continent. Ukraine’s deputy prime minister represents Svoboda (the smaller, even more extreme "Right Sector" coalition fills the deputy National Security Council chair), as does the prosecutor general and the deputy chair of parliament — where the party is the fourth-largest. And Svoboda’s fresh faces are scarcely different from the old: one of its freshmen members of parliament is the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and has hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history.

When the Ukraine crisis first broke in November, however, Western officialdom found itself in the dark. The end of the Cold War has occasioned a sharp drop in governmental interest in the Soviet successor states, and as Michael McFaul, a Russia scholar [Manny note: :ROFL:] and the former U.S. ambassador to Moscow, recently observed, Team America is batting with a considerably "shorter bench."

Nowhere has this dearth of nuance been more apparent than in the Ukraine crisis. In December, shortly after protests began against Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych, U.S. Senator John McCain shared a platform and an embrace with Svoboda chief Tyahnybok at a mass rally in Kiev, assuring demonstrators, "The free world is with you; America is with you." In February of this year, France and Germany oversaw a peace deal between Tyahnybok, two other opposition leaders, and Yanukovych (though soon after, protests forced Yanukovych to flee to Russia). And in early March, the U.S. State Department published a debunking of Putin’s "False Claims About Ukraine," assuring Americans that Ukraine’s far-right "are not represented" in parliament.

Western commentators have done little better. When Liz Wahl, an anchor for the Kremlin-funded TV network RT America, quit on-air on March 5, she was feted for her bravery. Granted an extended interview with CNN’s Anderson Cooper, she explained her decision by recounting her disgust at the network "painting the opposition over there in the Ukraine as having neo-Nazi elements. I think that’s very dangerous."

Meanwhile, in the lead-up to the March 16 referendum on Crimea’s annexation to Russia, Svoboda was busier than ever. One of its chief demands — that all government business be done in Ukrainian — was passed into law, instantaneously marginalizing the one-third of Ukraine’s citizens (and 60 percent of Crimeans) who speak Russian. Then for good measure, the party launched a push to repeal a law against "excusing the crimes of fascism."

So is Ukraine poised for a Nazi putsch? The good news is that opinion polls show Tyahnybok at just 5 percent approval, far behind Vitali Klitschko (the hulking, pro-Western former boxing champion) and the center-right ex-prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko. In fact, it was the same French- and German-backed peace deal that gave Svoboda its disproportionate share of the resulting government’s ministries.

Western governments, then, are at least partially complicit in facilitating Svoboda’s rise. In the short-term, they will have to be more discerning about which members of the Ukrainian leadership they engage, backing only those who genuinely hoist the flag of human rights rather than ethnic supremacy. In the medium- and long-term, those same governments, universities, and think tanks will have to get serious about re-investing in the study of Russia and its former domains.

Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Crimea must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. Its justification rings just as hollow as it did four years ago when Russia de facto annexed the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Sound policy, however, can only be based on sound analysis of the players involved. That requires conceding the point — even when made by the Kremlin — that more than a few of the protesters who toppled Yanukovych, and of the new leaders in Kiev, are fascists.

Source (https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18/yes-there-are-bad-guys-in-the-ukrainian-government/)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 03, 2022, 12:02:28 PM
Another article worth a read:

How Ukraine’s Jewish president Zelensky made peace with neo-Nazi paramilitaries on front lines of war with Russia (https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/)

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on April 06, 2022, 05:14:56 AM
The irony of it all.

https://news.yahoo.com/soldier-neo-nazi-symbols-arm-061652919.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on April 06, 2022, 06:52:57 AM
Another article worth a read:

How Ukraine’s Jewish president Zelensky made peace with neo-Nazi paramilitaries on front lines of war with Russia (https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/)
In March 2020, the English Wikipedia formally deprecated the use of The Grayzone as a source for facts in its articles, citing issues with the website's factual reliability
Usual writers:  Max Blumenthal, and her spouse Anya Parampil worked for Russia Today. Also Ben Norton1 et Aaron Maté

From Wikipedia english version:

The Grayzone has been criticized for defending authoritarian regimes.[3][10][23] Bruce Bawer, writing in Commentary, described The Grayzone as "a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel and Palestine".[23] Nerma Jelacic, writing in the Index on Censorship, described The Grayzone as "a Kremlin-connected online outlet that pushes pro-Russian conspiracy theories and genocide denial."[28] The Grayzone had previously claimed Jelacic's employer collaborated with ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra affiliates.[28] Socialist academic Gilbert Achcar asserts that The Grayzone is an example of "pro-Putin, pro-Assad 'left-wing' propaganda combined with gutter journalism."[29]

It has also been sharply criticized for its characterizations of the Xinjiang internment camps and other Chinese state abuses against Uyghurs.[3][10][30] James Bloodworth, writing in the New Statesman, commented: "n an echo of the way dictatorships publish the flattery of credulous foreign dupes in their state newspapers, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokespeople have approvingly tweeted articles from Blumenthal's online magazine The Grayzone which have sought to deny the persecution of China's Uighur population.
 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on April 06, 2022, 06:55:38 AM
Another article worth a read:

How Ukraine’s Jewish president Zelensky made peace with neo-Nazi paramilitaries on front lines of war with Russia (https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/)
In March 2020, the English Wikipedia formally deprecated the use of The Grayzone as a source for facts in its articles, citing issues with the website's factual reliability
Usual writers:  Max Blumenthal, and her spouse Anya Parampil worked for Russia Today. Also Ben Norton1 et Aaron Maté

From Wikipedia english version:

The Grayzone has been criticized for defending authoritarian regimes.[3][10][23] Bruce Bawer, writing in Commentary, described The Grayzone as "a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel and Palestine".[23] Nerma Jelacic, writing in the Index on Censorship, described The Grayzone as "a Kremlin-connected online outlet that pushes pro-Russian conspiracy theories and genocide denial."[28] The Grayzone had previously claimed Jelacic's employer collaborated with ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra affiliates.[28] Socialist academic Gilbert Achcar asserts that The Grayzone is an example of "pro-Putin, pro-Assad 'left-wing' propaganda combined with gutter journalism."[29]

It has also been sharply criticized for its characterizations of the Xinjiang internment camps and other Chinese state abuses against Uyghurs.[3][10][30] James Bloodworth, writing in the New Statesman, commented: "n an echo of the way dictatorships publish the flattery of credulous foreign dupes in their state newspapers, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokespeople have approvingly tweeted articles from Blumenthal's online magazine The Grayzone which have sought to deny the persecution of China's Uighur population.

Discredit the source, not the facts and facts cease to exist? If only it worked that way.

Grayzone is far more reputable than Wikipedia that anyone can edit without any form of authentication to it. The editors try to keep up with the crap but its unworkable.

I have decided to deprecate wikipedia as a reliable encyclopedia of facts as most articles are politically colored.

An excellent view of how Grayzone got that way on wikipedia by ..... grayzone https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/10/wikipedia-formally-censors-the-grayzone-as-regime-change-advocates-monopolize-editing/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 06, 2022, 08:14:22 AM
Zelensky obviously used azov battalion as a resource.

Not one of you supporting putin has admitted to the obvious that russia used neo nazis ,formerly out of their own military ranks, wagner pmc ,and others trained at st pete neo nazi militant camps leaders  in donbas.

Utkin was honored at the Kremlin.
Zhoga decorated by Russia.

Putins hero's:

 :'(

Girken started donbass, by his order. His account.



Neo nazi excuses are hypocritical.

If Ukraine invaded russia to get rid if neo nazis ,I'd say the same.


No discrediting the source needed.
The Kremlin honored these guys.

Neo nazis,  tattooed .
You all can pretend those are photoshopped I suppose.
Want pics of utkin at the Kremlin reception?

Paid by russia,honored by russia,former Fsb lieutenant colonel.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 06, 2022, 08:39:56 AM
Here's an article from 2014. I don't agree with some of the opinions entwined within, but it's accurate in terms of the basic facts (apart from McFaul being a scholar):

Yes, There Are Bad Guys in the Ukrainian Government

It's time for a frank conversation about some of the unsavory characters in Kiev.


Nice article.  :8)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 06, 2022, 09:38:38 AM
Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..

The one in st pete does.
Russian imperial moment and imperial guard.
You cared enough to find azov vids,if you care enough you can find
similar  RIM vids.
Internet is the greatest self bias  validation engine around.

You could find zelensky condemning galicia group in ukraine as well.
You can find pics of that glacia group in a parade in ukraine.
You could find Putin distancing himself from st Pete's RIM and RON.
Or you can find those neo nazis  y the thousands flying flags in a Moscow parade.

 :dh:

What you can't do is deny azov is neo nazi,and used by Ukraine.

anymore than you can deny the kremlin has honored and decorated various  russian neo nazi leaders in donbass separatist movement as Russian national heros.
 :whistle:


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on April 06, 2022, 10:50:14 AM
Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..

The one in st pete does.
Russian imperial moment and imperial guard.
You cared enough to find azov vids,if you care enough you can find
similar  RIM vids.
Internet is the greatest self bias  validation engine around.

You could find zelensky condemning galicia group in ukraine as well.
You can find pics of that glacia group in a parade in ukraine.
You could find Putin distancing himself from st Pete's RIM and RON.
Or you can find those neo nazis  y the thousands flying flags in a Moscow parade.

 :dh:

What you can't do is deny azov is neo nazi,and used by Ukraine.

anymore than you can deny the kremlin has honored and decorated various  russian neo nazi leaders in donbass separatist movement as Russian national heros.
 :whistle:

I do not think the Private military camps are real.  The Russians that I know have never heard of them.  Can you provided some proof?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 06, 2022, 12:21:15 PM
Yankee,

If you don't think Partizan camp exists, ok.
If you think.the  swedish bombers convicted in sweden testimony that they were trained there is u invalid,and they were lying and only on tourist for months  in st pete as their passports clearly showed,ok.

If you dont think the RIM,ruscish battalion,  imperial.guard  exists in st pete,ok.

If several world  organizations
have stated  RIM.as  being the only neo nazi group to be ranked as international terrorist doesnt convince you ,ok
If countless articles across all forms of media, prior to this ,speaking thier influence in Europe across many neo nazi organizations there dont mean anything to you ,ok

If pictures of Wagner pmc groups founder  ,a former ksb officer,  at a kremlin reception to honor him in 16 for his performance in dinnasd .dont convince you of the russian  affiliation ,then ok.
If the kremlin decorating neo nazi  Zhoga means no hypocrisy exists,ok


 I sincerely doubt anything anyone posts, be it  links,vids ,etc of all.the above which is avaiable  will convince you unless  every vid ,link is somehow documented, verified by 486 sources you trust.

I can respect that.

But I'd have to ask you in fairness-
Do you think azov exists?
Their military  training camp?
Did you get 486 verified proofs of such ?
or just a few links and vids?
To come to whatever  your decision is in that existence.

Do you think before the media hoopla of this conflict  the average European, russian, african,asian ,Australian or american heard of rim ?or azov ? or their training camps?
Maybe a blurb in the news for swedes when those bombings occured, or other blurbs.

Do you think  st Pete's neo nazi imperial guard doesn't have a place to train?

I've already posted pictures of them in a Moscow parade.

Sorry ,this kind of one sided  logic alludes me.

I easily admit azov exists and certainly had training camps.

To entertain the thought  that the neo nazi segment ts in russian ,u.s ,or the nordic movement dont also have is just mind blowing.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Halo on April 06, 2022, 01:18:42 PM
Yes, there are bad guys in the Ukrainian government.  But the cabal that controls Russia is worse.  They are all former KGB agents.  They had no issue suppressing dissent with brutality on Soviet times, and continue the tradition today by killing those who speak against them, or imprisoning them on trumped up charges reminiscent of Soviet show trials.

The difference is that the average Ukrainian knows which politicians are on the take.  The average Ukrainian will not submit to state coercion.  The average Russian, OTOH, not only submits to state coercion, but praises it.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 06, 2022, 01:30:28 PM
Yankee-
Read it if you choose.
It's not verified* signatures, as i'm.unsure how you  ,or i,could. Verify such.
 but its reasonable an photoshopped photo of the document. An establishment  of terms and  offices between Donestk peoples republic and RIM.in st pete.

One partisan camp is allegedly on an island in lake lagoda.
Rim.had office in st pete its referenced in that contract as well.

Girken former fsb officer key  in donbass, had  his rim..involvent  up on vk.and established rnp.a similar group.
He claims to have been the main reason the two  independent Republics exist.*

The Dutch courts scheduled a trial for girkin  in 2020 over the Malaysian airlines incident.
If you feel.they had no reasons  or evidence to hold  him in the trial, ok

If you think.he acted entirely on his own when moving from the operation in 14 /crimea, to donbass to start the seperatist movement,ok.


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Halo on April 06, 2022, 01:51:14 PM
You will see here

https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/soldier-neo-nazi-symbols-arm-061652919.html

halfway down the page, a Russian soldier (of the "separatist" army) receiving a military decoration for eliminating "nazis" as part of the de-Nazification of Ukraine while wearing a Totenkopf badge (an SS symbol) and a Volknut, which is identified, certainly along with the former symbol, with neo nazis.

Why is the head of the "separatist republic" giving an award for "eliminating nazis" to a soldier wearing nazi symbols?

First, this has almost nothing to do with the National Socialist ideology.  In Russia and Ukraine, nazi symbols have little to do with its racial doctrine. The ideology, to the extent one exists, is admiration for the strong and disdain for the weak.  These symbols come from a subculture of criminals, street gangs, at-risk teens, soccer fans, and fight clubs. They convey machismo, striking fear, "f*** the system", and, of course, hatred of leftists (in this regard, 90% of the posters here qualify). For them nazi symbols/far right ideology is about empowerment. Under this facade, and based on the legitimacy they derive from being those who "maintain order" where the state authorities fail, they are also recruited by politicians and oligarchs as thugs for hire, to beat up political and business rivals. Of course there are loads of such gangs, each amounting to ten men on a good day, and they all hate each other.

In the "separatist republics", the Russians have organized a "governing body" composed of local gangsters and other shady types. This is why you can find neo nazis among them, among the Russian Wagner mercenaries, the Russian Imperial Movement, "Nashi", RO, and all of the works of Kremlin advisor Alexander Dugin, among others.  Ukraine has similar organizations, but unlike in Russia, they are not funded by the government.

The infamous Azov Battalion included young men, mostly from Mariopol, as described above.  Today, it is just another military battalion with a somewhat shady history, distinct from the political movement that tries to blur this distinction in order to build itself up from the battalion’s military bravado (with the generous help of the Russians who exaggerate this story as much as possible) but with next to no electoral achievements.

None of this really has to do anything with the Kremlin’s "fighting the Nazis" narrative. There, the story is simple; As the Russians believe they (not the Soviets, which is actually the truth) "beat the Nazis", anyone who has a problem with Russia and its regime is a nazi. If they use nazi symbolism, all the better. If not, they’re still a nazi. But, using nazi symbolism and pro-Putin? Not a nazi.

Some links to Russian neo nazis -

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/putin-nazi-pretext-russia-war-ukraine-belied-white-supremacy-ties-rcna23043

https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battalion-putin-premise-war-vs-nazis/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/terrorist-label-white-supremacy-Russian-Imperial-Movement.html

Incidentally, the NYT article describes the St. Petersburg paramilitary camps.


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on April 06, 2022, 02:06:36 PM
Yankee,

If you don't think Partizan camp exists, ok.
If you think.the  swedish bombers convicted in sweden testimony that they were trained there is u invalid,and they were lying and only on tourist for months  in st pete as their passports clearly showed,ok.

If you dont think the RIM,ruscish battalion,  imperial.guard  exists in st pete,ok.

If several world  organizations
have stated  RIM.as  being the only neo nazi group to be ranked as international terrorist doesnt convince you ,ok
If countless articles across all forms of media, prior to this ,speaking thier influence in Europe across many neo nazi organizations there dont mean anything to you ,ok

If pictures of Wagner pmc groups founder  ,a former ksb officer,  at a kremlin reception to honor him in 16 for his performance in dinnasd .dont convince you of the russian  affiliation ,then ok.
If the kremlin decorating neo nazi  Zhoga means no hypocrisy exists,ok


 I sincerely doubt anything anyone posts, be it  links,vids ,etc of all.the above which is avaiable  will convince you unless  every vid ,link is somehow documented, verified by 486 sources you trust.

I can respect that.

But I'd have to ask you in fairness-
Do you think azov exists?
Their military  training camp?
Did you get 486 verified proofs of such ?
or just a few links and vids?
To come to whatever  your decision is in that existence.

Do you think before the media hoopla of this conflict  the average European, russian, african,asian ,Australian or american heard of rim ?or azov ? or their training camps?
Maybe a blurb in the news for swedes when those bombings occured, or other blurbs.

Do you think  st Pete's neo nazi imperial guard doesn't have a place to train?

I've already posted pictures of them in a Moscow parade.

Sorry ,this kind of one sided  logic alludes me.

I easily admit azov exists and certainly had training camps.

To entertain the thought  that the neo nazi segment ts in russian ,u.s ,or the nordic movement dont also have is just mind blowing.

AJ,  I wasn't saying there were not these camps in Russia.  I asked my  wife to search the Russian sites and she found out there are some.
So, have a beer and relax.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on April 06, 2022, 02:11:23 PM
https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/wolfsangel

https://www.vikingrune.com/2009/07/norse-runic-third-reich-symbols/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on April 06, 2022, 03:00:07 PM
Yes, there are bad guys in the Ukrainian government.  But the cabal that controls Russia is worse.  They are all former KGB agents.  They had no issue suppressing dissent with brutality on Soviet times, and continue the tradition today by killing those who speak against them, or imprisoning them on trumped up charges reminiscent of Soviet show trials.

The difference is that the average Ukrainian knows which politicians are on the take.  The average Ukrainian will not submit to state coercion.  The average Russian, OTOH, not only submits to state coercion, but praises it.
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on April 06, 2022, 03:00:45 PM
Yankee,

If you don't think Partizan camp exists, ok.
If you think.the  swedish bombers convicted in sweden testimony that they were trained there is u invalid,and they were lying and only on tourist for months  in st pete as their passports clearly showed,ok.

If you dont think the RIM,ruscish battalion,  imperial.guard  exists in st pete,ok.

If several world  organizations
have stated  RIM.as  being the only neo nazi group to be ranked as international terrorist doesnt convince you ,ok
If countless articles across all forms of media, prior to this ,speaking thier influence in Europe across many neo nazi organizations there dont mean anything to you ,ok

If pictures of Wagner pmc groups founder  ,a former ksb officer,  at a kremlin reception to honor him in 16 for his performance in dinnasd .dont convince you of the russian  affiliation ,then ok.
If the kremlin decorating neo nazi  Zhoga means no hypocrisy exists,ok


 I sincerely doubt anything anyone posts, be it  links,vids ,etc of all.the above which is avaiable  will convince you unless  every vid ,link is somehow documented, verified by 486 sources you trust.

I can respect that.

But I'd have to ask you in fairness-
Do you think azov exists?
Their military  training camp?
Did you get 486 verified proofs of such ?
or just a few links and vids?
To come to whatever  your decision is in that existence.

Do you think before the media hoopla of this conflict  the average European, russian, african,asian ,Australian or american heard of rim ?or azov ? or their training camps?
Maybe a blurb in the news for swedes when those bombings occured, or other blurbs.

Do you think  st Pete's neo nazi imperial guard doesn't have a place to train?

I've already posted pictures of them in a Moscow parade.

Sorry ,this kind of one sided  logic alludes me.

I easily admit azov exists and certainly had training camps.

To entertain the thought  that the neo nazi segment ts in russian ,u.s ,or the nordic movement dont also have is just mind blowing.
+1
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 06, 2022, 03:55:03 PM

Quote

AJ, I wasn't saying there were not these camps in Russia.  I asked my  wife to search the Russian sites and she found out there are some.
So, have a beer and relax.

Ok, fair enough,but I was responding to you saying:
Quote
I do not think the Private military camps are real.  The Russians that I know have never heard of them.  Can you provided some proof?

So that  sure   seed like you were saying those camps dont exist in russia ,and expecting proof
.

There is a pretty solid cintingentbhere that ignore the neo nazism.in russua,ignore putins decorated neo nazi leaders of those, amd ignore they not inly existed in the donbas seperatist movement, they WERE the Donbass seperatist movement.

The hypocracy keeps being ignored so yeah with a MIL.in direct danger it bothers me.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on April 06, 2022, 04:06:32 PM

Quote

AJ, I wasn't saying there were not these camps in Russia.  I asked my  wife to search the Russian sites and she found out there are some.
So, have a beer and relax.

Ok, fair enough,but I was responding to you saying:
Quote
I do not think the Private military camps are real.  The Russians that I know have never heard of them.  Can you provided some proof?

So that  sure   seed like you were saying those camps dont exist in russia ,and expecting proof
.

There is a pretty solid cintingentbhere that ignore the neo nazism.in russua,ignore putins decorated neo nazi leaders of those, amd ignore they not inly existed in the donbas seperatist movement, they WERE the Donbass seperatist movement.

The hypocracy keeps being ignored so yeah with a MIL.in direct danger it bothers me.

My wife thinks that the summer camps are relativly new (last decade or so).  Before she moved to the US she thinks that private military camps for children were illegal.  We have relatives and friends that live in Ukraine also.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 06, 2022, 06:15:41 PM
Yankee, your wife is likely correct on last decade or so,  and on them considered illegal for minors.

 I am unsure of when they were established, the Russian imperal movement was originally political, and alledgedly started in 02.
However I dont think the imperial guard militant faction of it was until 08 or so.
Obviously they were operating training  camps by 14 as that rucsich battalion, crucial leader in donbass ,and other leaders in donbass were from there,and trained there.

The frustration you may sense in my post regarding this ,is that this conflict seems to be so black and white to people.

Many refuse to see any grey,
 or anything negative regarding their prefered flavor.

I easily have said all along the west played games  there and bears some responcibility.
I also don't think any ukrainian leader  is above playing games,pandering to the media , using media to portray every incident in the worst light,
 making use of useful.neo nazi fragments in the country etc.
My wife being ukrainian doesn't make me blind to corruption in the usa,the west ,or ukraine. or to  factions of neo nasism.in any of those places.
 It is obvious azov gained some public support in ukraine from their  initial military success and nationilistic fervor.

   The topic of nazism is just a particular hypocracy to me,
 as it was used as  the actual spearhead of the  russian seperatist movent and russian seperatist idealogy.
To miss that is to miss the *stated * purpose behind the new republics and that seems  crucially important.

Putin supporters generally fail to acknowledge it exists at all.in russia,which it certainly does.
Have  absolute * crickets* when those groups or leaders  are mentioned ,or any mention the Kremlin decorated them. (And almost assuredly planted them)

I challenge any of them to try to understand girkens own account and his views of the republics and his vision for them and  for ukraine and all baltic states.
Read the several founding groups goals,and their leaders visions.
Pavlov ,utkin,girken ,etc.
There are a dozen neo nazi orgs in russia.
All those groups ,and particular those like rusich battalion ,RIM, ,Sparta battalion , wagner pmc, RNP, etc had clear charter with stated mantras and goals.
Those mentioned  absolutely founded the seperatist movement that made the new Republics anything close to viable.

Putins key justifications for this war
Included those republics,
and
Ukrainian nazism.


The nazism being pure hypocracy then.
And thats factual.

Granted its just my opinion that  he used useful idiot neo nazis intentionally in donbass (he had a history of doing so.as a young man in germany) then he  decorated a few that he pulled back and had the others  killed when they were liabilities.

 As far as those republics,  and thier leaders, they  have clear  visions of * new russia*.
Most were former fsb or GRU officers,or RIM members.They have been decorated by the Kremlin prior and  recently.

If anyone chooses to.support  putin in this , they should come to grips that the republics key in these ukraine actions were formed front and center by neo nazis,and their vision of those republics extends to all former imperial.Russian holdings.
They believe in  sending the populace to camps then expulsion of any non russians in any of those  former imperlist russia areas.They spell.it out clearly in their web presense,in their charters.



Obviously they dont speak for the Kremlin ,but when they were planted, funded ,and decorated by the Kremlin it bears noting what the groups chartered views are,as well as the leaders of those republics.

They seem to have the courage of their convictions , are being supported by russia extensively  ,so in this conflict their stated views seem very  important.

Since the Russian supporters fail to acknowledge their existance as neo.nazi group members , it seems unlikely they have bothered to read their goals and views or charters of the groups they founded.















Title: Enjoy, Halo!!!
Post by: Orchid on April 07, 2022, 12:07:51 AM
Yes, there are bad guys in the Ukrainian government.  But the cabal that controls Russia is worse.  They are all former KGB agents.  They had no issue suppressing dissent with brutality on Soviet times, and continue the tradition today by killing those who speak against them, or imprisoning them on trumped up charges reminiscent of Soviet show trials.

The difference is that the average Ukrainian knows which politicians are on the take.  The average Ukrainian will not submit to state coercion.  The average Russian, OTOH, not only submits to state coercion, but praises it.

That’s how it was in Bucha. I am guessing…

Enjoy, Halo, the brutality of average Ukrainian.

https://t.me/voenacher/14106
Title: Re: Enjoy, Halo!!!
Post by: Jonas! on April 07, 2022, 08:23:31 AM
Yes, there are bad guys in the Ukrainian government.  But the cabal that controls Russia is worse.  They are all former KGB agents.  They had no issue suppressing dissent with brutality on Soviet times, and continue the tradition today by killing those who speak against them, or imprisoning them on trumped up charges reminiscent of Soviet show trials.

The difference is that the average Ukrainian knows which politicians are on the take.  The average Ukrainian will not submit to state coercion.  The average Russian, OTOH, not only submits to state coercion, but praises it.

That’s how it was in Bucha. I am guessing…

Enjoy, Halo, the brutality of average Ukrainian.

https://t.me/voenacher/14106
The brutality cuts both ways I'm sure.  Wars and atrocities go hand and hand.   
Wars over money and resources may become even more commonplace as resources deplete. Of course, war is quite a misallocation of resources.   Resources are used to fight, and are destroyed in battle. 

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Halo on April 07, 2022, 11:11:38 AM
Yes, wars and brutality go hand in hand.

Incidentally, the Russian shot (a) was injured and likely dying; and (b) was shot be a Georgian fighting for Ukraine.  I'm not dismissing this, if it occurred.  The jury is still out.  I am suspicious because, how would a video, which could only have been taken by Ukrainian forces, make its way into the public domain?  That makes no sense to me. 

However, first a combatant, who has placed children on his tank to escape Kyiv (confirmed by relatives), raped children (confirmed from several locations) and used civilians as target practice (confirmed in Germany intercepted Russian communications) is not the same as a civilian.  Not surprised you would equate them, though.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Orchid on April 07, 2022, 08:21:44 PM
Yes, wars and brutality go hand in hand.

Incidentally, the Russian shot (a) was injured and likely dying; and (b) was shot be a Georgian fighting for Ukraine.  I'm not dismissing this, if it occurred.  The jury is still out.  I am suspicious because, how would a video, which could only have been taken by Ukrainian forces, make its way into the public domain?  That makes no sense to me. 

However, first a combatant, who has placed children on his tank to escape Kyiv (confirmed by relatives), raped children (confirmed from several locations) and used civilians as target practice (confirmed in Germany intercepted Russian communications) is not the same as a civilian.  Not surprised you would equate them, though.


The execution of prisoners of war makes sense for you, but how the video of the execution became available to public does not make sense for you!
Just read what you wrote!!!
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on April 08, 2022, 09:01:19 AM
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."

Joseph Goebbels
#Lying #Military #Believe

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on April 08, 2022, 03:47:16 PM
Yes, wars and brutality go hand in hand.

Incidentally, the Russian shot (a) was injured and likely dying; and (b) was shot be a Georgian fighting for Ukraine.  I'm not dismissing this, if it occurred.  The jury is still out.  I am suspicious because, how would a video, which could only have been taken by Ukrainian forces, make its way into the public domain?  That makes no sense to me. 

However, first a combatant, who has placed children on his tank to escape Kyiv (confirmed by relatives), raped children (confirmed from several locations) and used civilians as target practice (confirmed in Germany intercepted Russian communications) is not the same as a civilian.  Not surprised you would equate them, though.


The execution of prisoners of war makes sense for you, but how the video of the execution became available to public does not make sense for you!
Just read what you wrote!!!


Yes, read what you wrote, each and every day. Let's imagine for one moment that Ukraine was the aggressor, and somehow they managed to send 190,000 soldiers into Russia, to rape pillage and commit genocide against the Russian civilians, not only in the close cities but at least 10 to 15 cities and villagers. Husbands were killed in cold blood in front of their wives and then their wives were raped in front of a child.

And all the time Ukrainians were firing missiles and dropping bombs on cities and destroying them. What would the Russian soldiers do if they captured a Ukrainian soldier? They would probably torture them for a week before killing them.

IF that video is authentic, the Russian soldier is very lucky that he met a quick end, instead of the sadistic treatment he would get if he were Ukrainian and captured invading Ukraine.

None of these arguments would be happening in the first place IF a ruthless ill dictator did not order Russian soldiers to invade Ukraine and commit genoce against the population.
There is only one person responsible and that is Putin.

You say you found your country, you are happy here in the USA BUT you stab America in the back by supporting a ruthless, very ill delusional man stuck in the past who has made multiple veiled threats against the USA and other countries. 

It is very convenient for you and other Putin supporters to support him from afar. You criticize me for being patriotic, yet I live on my own soil, I was born here and my ancestors came here nearly 300 years ago.

Why not go back to your own soil where you were born? Because you and many others here are the ultimate hypocrites. You support genocide and satanic behavior or bad people.

Ukrainians now hate Putin more than they ever could have before. As Timothy Snyder says, the only crime any Ukrainian has committed is being a human who happens to have been born in Ukraine. Many Russians have also left because they do not support a fascist/communist dictator.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on April 08, 2022, 03:56:34 PM
Yes, wars and brutality go hand in hand.

Incidentally, the Russian shot (a) was injured and likely dying; and (b) was shot be a Georgian fighting for Ukraine.  I'm not dismissing this, if it occurred.  The jury is still out.  I am suspicious because, how would a video, which could only have been taken by Ukrainian forces, make its way into the public domain?  That makes no sense to me. 

However, first a combatant, who has placed children on his tank to escape Kyiv (confirmed by relatives), raped children (confirmed from several locations) and used civilians as target practice (confirmed in Germany intercepted Russian communications) is not the same as a civilian.  Not surprised you would equate them, though.


The execution of prisoners of war makes sense for you, but how the video of the execution became available to public does not make sense for you!
Just read what you wrote!!!


Yes, read what you wrote, each and every day. Let's imagine for one moment that Ukraine was the aggressor, and somehow they managed to send 190,000 soldiers into Russia, to rape pillage and commit genocide against the Russian civilians, not only in the close cities but at least 10 to 15 cities and villagers. Husbands were killed in cold blood in front of their wives and then their wives were raped in front of a child.

And all the time Ukrainians were firing missiles and dropping bombs on cities and destroying them. What would the Russian soldiers do if they captured a Ukrainian soldier? They would probably torture them for a week before killing them.

IF that video is authentic, the Russian soldier is very lucky that he met a quick end, instead of the sadistic treatment he would get if he were Ukrainian and captured invading Ukraine.

None of these arguments would be happening in the first place IF a ruthless ill dictator did not order Russian soldiers to invade Ukraine and commit genoce against the population.
There is only one person responsible and that is Putin.

You say you found your country, you are happy here in the USA BUT you stab America in the back by supporting a ruthless, very ill delusional man stuck in the past who has made multiple veiled threats against the USA and other countries. 

It is very convenient for you and other Putin supporters to support him from afar. You criticize me for being patriotic, yet I live on my own soil, I was born here and my ancestors came here nearly 300 years ago.

Why not go back to your own soil where you were born? Because you and many others here are the ultimate hypocrites. You support genocide and satanic behavior or bad people.

Ukrainians now hate Putin more than they ever could have before. As Timothy Snyder says, the only crime any Ukrainian has committed is being a human who happens to have been born in Ukraine. Many Russians have also left because they do not support a fascist/communist dictator.

Thank you for reminding me why I put you on my ignore list!
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on April 08, 2022, 05:24:50 PM
Another article worth a read:

How Ukraine’s Jewish president Zelensky made peace with neo-Nazi paramilitaries on front lines of war with Russia (https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/)
In March 2020, the English Wikipedia formally deprecated the use of The Grayzone as a source for facts in its articles, citing issues with the website's factual reliability
Usual writers:  Max Blumenthal, and her spouse Anya Parampil worked for Russia Today. Also Ben Norton1 et Aaron Maté

From Wikipedia english version:

The Grayzone has been criticized for defending authoritarian regimes.[3][10][23] Bruce Bawer, writing in Commentary, described The Grayzone as "a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel and Palestine".[23] Nerma Jelacic, writing in the Index on Censorship, described The Grayzone as "a Kremlin-connected online outlet that pushes pro-Russian conspiracy theories and genocide denial."[28] The Grayzone had previously claimed Jelacic's employer collaborated with ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra affiliates.[28] Socialist academic Gilbert Achcar asserts that The Grayzone is an example of "pro-Putin, pro-Assad 'left-wing' propaganda combined with gutter journalism."[29]

It has also been sharply criticized for its characterizations of the Xinjiang internment camps and other Chinese state abuses against Uyghurs.[3][10][30] James Bloodworth, writing in the New Statesman, commented: "n an echo of the way dictatorships publish the flattery of credulous foreign dupes in their state newspapers, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokespeople have approvingly tweeted articles from Blumenthal's online magazine The Grayzone which have sought to deny the persecution of China's Uighur population.

Discredit the source, not the facts and facts cease to exist? If only it worked that way.

Grayzone is far more reputable than Wikipedia that anyone can edit without any form of authentication to it. The editors try to keep up with the crap but its unworkable.

I have decided to deprecate Wikipedia as a reliable encyclopedia of facts as most articles are politically colored.

An excellent view of how Grayzone got that way on wikipedia by ..... grayzone https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/10/wikipedia-formally-censors-the-grayzone-as-regime-change-advocates-monopolize-editing/

 
Wikipedia is not totally reliable yes,
But guess what that was the first thing that the Russian Federation tried to modify after they had shot down the MH17,
They tried to modify the armament of the SU25 to let believe (a Ukrainian SU25 was in the surrounding) that an air sol bomber could rip off an
airliner.   
So as you see the Russian Federation values Wikipedia itself.
 
What we have seen since 2014 is that most of the facts cease to exist, because the propaganda is the one to cease things to exist and some other to not exist, depending on the day and the willingness of the authoritarian power.
 
As you will notice, in the case of the MH17, despite the conclusions of the trial, the RF has never accepted any responsibility.
Dissimulation is the RF DNA, like many authoritarian countries.
When the Iranian air defense shot down the Ukrainian plane in Teheran (flight 752), the Iranian authorities took responsibility. Quite surprising from such a regime.
Since then nobody talk about this, case closed. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on April 08, 2022, 08:11:03 PM
Yes, wars and brutality go hand in hand.

Incidentally, the Russian shot (a) was injured and likely dying; and (b) was shot be a Georgian fighting for Ukraine.  I'm not dismissing this, if it occurred.  The jury is still out.  I am suspicious because, how would a video, which could only have been taken by Ukrainian forces, make its way into the public domain?  That makes no sense to me. 

However, first a combatant, who has placed children on his tank to escape Kyiv (confirmed by relatives), raped children (confirmed from several locations) and used civilians as target practice (confirmed in Germany intercepted Russian communications) is not the same as a civilian.  Not surprised you would equate them, though.


The execution of prisoners of war makes sense for you, but how the video of the execution became available to public does not make sense for you!
Just read what you wrote!!!


Yes, read what you wrote, each and every day. Let's imagine for one moment that Ukraine was the aggressor, and somehow they managed to send 190,000 soldiers into Russia, to rape pillage and commit genocide against the Russian civilians, not only in the close cities but at least 10 to 15 cities and villagers. Husbands were killed in cold blood in front of their wives and then their wives were raped in front of a child.

And all the time Ukrainians were firing missiles and dropping bombs on cities and destroying them. What would the Russian soldiers do if they captured a Ukrainian soldier? They would probably torture them for a week before killing them.

IF that video is authentic, the Russian soldier is very lucky that he met a quick end, instead of the sadistic treatment he would get if he were Ukrainian and captured invading Ukraine.

None of these arguments would be happening in the first place IF a ruthless ill dictator did not order Russian soldiers to invade Ukraine and commit genoce against the population.
There is only one person responsible and that is Putin.

You say you found your country, you are happy here in the USA BUT you stab America in the back by supporting a ruthless, very ill delusional man stuck in the past who has made multiple veiled threats against the USA and other countries. 

It is very convenient for you and other Putin supporters to support him from afar. You criticize me for being patriotic, yet I live on my own soil, I was born here and my ancestors came here nearly 300 years ago.

Why not go back to your own soil where you were born? Because you and many others here are the ultimate hypocrites. You support genocide and satanic behavior or bad people.

Ukrainians now hate Putin more than they ever could have before. As Timothy Snyder says, the only crime any Ukrainian has committed is being a human who happens to have been born in Ukraine. Many Russians have also left because they do not support a fascist/communist dictator.

Thank you for reminding me why I put you on my ignore list!


And now you've become like Moby, putting someone on ignore and then reading it anyway.  :laugh:

No problem Yankee if you would have met a UW or a RW in Ukraine those years ago you would be on the same side.

For many others they have Stockholm syndrome and they go back to worshipping those who destroyed their ancestors lives.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on April 08, 2022, 08:36:06 PM
Yes, wars and brutality go hand in hand.

Incidentally, the Russian shot (a) was injured and likely dying; and (b) was shot be a Georgian fighting for Ukraine.  I'm not dismissing this, if it occurred.  The jury is still out.  I am suspicious because, how would a video, which could only have been taken by Ukrainian forces, make its way into the public domain?  That makes no sense to me. 

However, first a combatant, who has placed children on his tank to escape Kyiv (confirmed by relatives), raped children (confirmed from several locations) and used civilians as target practice (confirmed in Germany intercepted Russian communications) is not the same as a civilian.  Not surprised you would equate them, though.


The execution of prisoners of war makes sense for you, but how the video of the execution became available to public does not make sense for you!
Just read what you wrote!!!


Yes, read what you wrote, each and every day. Let's imagine for one moment that Ukraine was the aggressor, and somehow they managed to send 190,000 soldiers into Russia, to rape pillage and commit genocide against the Russian civilians, not only in the close cities but at least 10 to 15 cities and villagers. Husbands were killed in cold blood in front of their wives and then their wives were raped in front of a child.

And all the time Ukrainians were firing missiles and dropping bombs on cities and destroying them. What would the Russian soldiers do if they captured a Ukrainian soldier? They would probably torture them for a week before killing them.

IF that video is authentic, the Russian soldier is very lucky that he met a quick end, instead of the sadistic treatment he would get if he were Ukrainian and captured invading Russia.

None of these arguments would be happening in the first place IF a ruthless ill dictator did not order Russian soldiers to invade Ukraine and commit genoce against the population.
There is only one person responsible and that is Putin.

You say you found your country, you are happy here in the USA BUT you stab America in the back by supporting a ruthless, very ill delusional man stuck in the past who has made multiple veiled threats against the USA and other countries. 

It is very convenient for you and other Putin supporters to support him from afar. You criticize me for being patriotic, yet I live on my own soil, I was born here and my ancestors came here nearly 300 years ago.

Why not go back to your own soil where you were born? Because you and many others here are the ultimate hypocrites. You support genocide and satanic behavior or bad people.

Ukrainians now hate Putin more than they ever could have before. As Timothy Snyder says, the only crime any Ukrainian has committed is being a human who happens to have been born in Ukraine. Many Russians have also left because they do not support a fascist/communist dictator.

Thank you for reminding me why I put you on my ignore list!


And now you've become like Moby, putting someone on ignore and then reading it anyway.  :laugh:

No problem Yankee if you would have met a UW or a RW in Ukraine those years ago you would be on the same side.

For many others they have Stockholm syndrome and they go back to worshipping those who destroyed their ancestors lives.


Edit -- Please notice that the third line of my response to poster Orchid should have been:

"IF that video is authentic, the Russian soldier is very lucky that he met a quick end, instead of the sadistic treatment he would get if he were Ukrainian and captured invading Russia."


None of these heated discussions would be happening or necessary were Russia led by a man of democratic and moral principles instead of a ruthless relic of the Soviet past. The fact that so many have engaged in "what about this" and "what about that" shows how effective brainwashing and indoctrination are, regardless of the moment in history or side.


Only one man is responsible for the lack of peace in Europe now. The Russian partial victory will be short-lived and pyrrhic for the RF, Ukraine and the world at large.


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 08, 2022, 11:06:36 PM
Only one man is responsible for the lack of peace in Europe now.

The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now: Fomenting regime change in 2014, installing at least one puppet president, arming neo nazis there to prolong a civil war since then, dangling carrots at Zelensky to make him think he could pull off getting Donbass back, stuff the country with nukes and join NATO, not encouraging diplomacy that would have prevented the current conflict and arming Ukraine to prolong the current conflict.

That's your geopolitics lesson for today, Contrarian. No amount of oversized quotes, or repetitive, verbose windsockery by you from your double-wide will change any of those facts.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 08, 2022, 11:08:46 PM
how would a video, which could only have been taken by Ukrainian forces, make its way into the public domain? 

Because they're uploading all kinds of stuff to Telegram of course.  :fighting0025:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on April 08, 2022, 11:59:57 PM


As you will notice, in the case of the MH17, despite the conclusions of the trial, the RF has never accepted any responsibility.
Dissimulation is the RF DNA, like many authoritarian countries.
When the Iranian air defense shot down the Ukrainian plane in Teheran (flight 752), the Iranian authorities took responsibility. Quite surprising from such a regime.
Since then nobody talk about this, case closed.

The RF was not charged in the case of MH17. And the trial is still ongoing against the 4 individuals that were charged.
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. all about money
Post by: Lon on April 09, 2022, 12:00:51 AM
The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now: Fomenting regime change in 2014, installing at least one puppet president, arming neo nazis there to prolong a civil war since then, dangling carrots at Zelensky to make him think he could pull off getting Donbass back, stuff the country with nukes and join NATO, not encouraging diplomacy that would have prevented the current conflict and arming Ukraine to prolong the current conflict.

That's your geopolitics lesson for today, Contrarian. No amount of oversized quotes, or repetitive, verbose windsockery by you from your double-wide will change any of those facts.

no! do not put all blame for this on the U.S.A.  the whole of western world can shoulder a very large blame, including your own homelands.
not encouraging diplomacy is a two edge sword, Putin could/should have done same thing before the "special operation"
as for arming and prolonging the conflict....BS, absolute BS.  you tell me what would be done if roles are reversed or if Scotland "special operated" northern England or vice versa. 
  you do not think that one or the other would not be supplied with arms...BS
and never forget the armed neo-nazis in other nations, including Russia.

but...all of that is just smoke at of a**es.  the real reason, the same reason all wars "special operations", are waged is money.  the resources, the energy deposits, are what Putin is after.
if it was really about denazification you head directly for the head or heart of the "neo-nazis". only Kiev would matter for that conclusion, you kill of neutralize the "neo-nazi" leader.  a straight thrust from Troebortnoe, perhaps with a feint from Novye Yurkovichi, would have took care of matters (IMO)
nothing else in the country matters, if it is denazification.  not protecting Russian citizens.  not even the Azov battalion matters, in all reality, they could be mopped up later.
this "special operation" is only about controlling resources and the route to those resources.

all wars are fought for money!  and that is the economy lesson for all

note#1 all information and facts that support these conclusions are a simple inter-web search away
note#2 no amount of belittling of other members change facts
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. all about money
Post by: Gipsy on April 09, 2022, 12:31:53 AM
The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now: Fomenting regime change in 2014, installing at least one puppet president, arming neo nazis there to prolong a civil war since then, dangling carrots at Zelensky to make him think he could pull off getting Donbass back, stuff the country with nukes and join NATO, not encouraging diplomacy that would have prevented the current conflict and arming Ukraine to prolong the current conflict.

That's your geopolitics lesson for today, Contrarian. No amount of oversized quotes, or repetitive, verbose windsockery by you from your double-wide will change any of those facts.

no! do not put all blame for this on the U.S.A.  the whole of western world can shoulder a very large blame, including your own homelands.
not encouraging diplomacy is a two edge sword, Putin could/should have done same thing before the "special operation"
as for arming and prolonging the conflict....BS, absolute BS.  you tell me what would be done if roles are reversed or if Scotland "special operated" northern England or vice versa. 
  you do not think that one or the other would not be supplied with arms...BS
and never forget the armed neo-nazis in other nations, including Russia.

but...all of that is just smoke at of a**es.  the real reason, the same reason all wars "special operations", are waged is money.  the resources, the energy deposits, are what Putin is after.
if it was really about denazification you head directly for the head or heart of the "neo-nazis". only Kiev would matter for that conclusion, you kill of neutralize the "neo-nazi" leader.  a straight thrust from Troebortnoe, perhaps with a feint from Novye Yurkovichi, would have took care of matters (IMO)
nothing else in the country matters, if it is denazification.  not protecting Russian citizens.  not even the Azov battalion matters, in all reality, they could be mopped up later.
this "special operation" is only about controlling resources and the route to those resources.

all wars are fought for money!  and that is the economy lesson for all

note#1 all information and facts that support these conclusions are a simple inter-web search away
note#2 no amount of belittling of other members change facts

What was Putin supposed to do??, Backing off and allow the US move into Ukraine, I think NOT...
In reality, the US holds the responsibility for ALL the worlds problems...
Where any small country does not bow down to the mighty US, they get invaded, when a larger country stands up to be counted against the US threat, they get demonized..
Take N Ireland for example, IF the mighty US of A had stopped supplying weapons to the IRA and the Provo's, the situation would have ceased many years earlier..
To go further, do you really believe that IF S Arabia, wanted payment for oil in its own currency For example, that the US would agree, Not a chance, they would most probably invade...
Atrocities (o called) in Ukraine, well, most of them are probably fake news, instigated by the US advising how and what to do, when and where..
In other words, I feel that all of you "armchair" specialists here on the forum, should go away, sort out your own evil past, and domestic affairs before telling others what's right or wrong in your eyes...
If any of you don't like what is happening in Ukraine, then the answer is simple, shut up and put up, in other words, get of your fat arses , go to Ukraine and fight for what you think is right, but you won't will you...
I wonder why!!!!
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. all about money
Post by: dorbradavid on April 09, 2022, 05:42:51 AM
Ok, there are no clean hands in this, Russia, Ukraine and the US all contributed. US STate department (Nuland) really egged on the Ukrainian govt.


no! do not put all blame for this on the U.S.A. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. all about money in response
Post by: Lon on April 09, 2022, 12:26:06 PM
What was Putin supposed to do??, Backing off and allow the US move into Ukraine, I think NOT...
you make it sound as if Putin is being manipulated by the U.S.A.  reportedly the greatest geo-politician of the 21st century by some (my opinion is out on this topic at this time).  is he the puppet you infer?
this still does not change that is about the money (resources) not denazification.
In reality, the US holds the responsibility for ALL the worlds problems...
Where any small country does not bow down to the mighty US, they get invaded, when a larger country stands up to be counted against the US threat, they get demonized..
Take N Ireland for example, IF the mighty US of A had stopped supplying weapons to the IRA and the Provo's, the situation would have ceased many years earlier..
To go further, do you really believe that IF S Arabia, wanted payment for oil in its own currency For example, that the US would agree, Not a chance, they would most probably invade...
again, the puppet Putin (and the world) dancing to the U.S.A. swing band  :whist11:
Atrocities (o called) in Ukraine, well, most of them are probably fake news, instigated by the US advising how and what to do, when and where..
I did not mention the atrocities, that is a different thread.  hopefully the truth will out after unbiased investigation.
In other words, I feel that all of you "armchair" specialists here on the forum, should go away, sort out your own evil past, and domestic affairs before telling others what's right or wrong in your eyes...
sorting my evil past? my domestic affairs? I was not writing of right or wrong, I was writing about the motivation of Putin's 'special operation'.
I gave a amateur opinion, of tactical move that supported my statement....armchair specialist....very likely  :biggrin:
remember note#2 "no amount of belittling of other members change facts"
If any of you don't like what is happening in Ukraine, then the answer is simple, shut up and put up, in other words, get of your fat arses , go to Ukraine and fight for what you think is right, but you won't will you...
I wonder why!!!!
I hate to remind you (not really) of note#2
besides being a ignorant statement.  you have no idea what I, or any other person, has done in support of Ukraine or Russia
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on April 09, 2022, 12:45:03 PM
Who's inferring that Putin is a US puppet, I certainly didn't, and if you read my post as stating such, I feel sorry for you...
I don't know what you or anyone has done to support Ukraine, and I'm not interested in the least, BUT, you probably did it from your armchair... That's my point...
 :duh: :duh: :duh: :dh:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. all about money in response
Post by: dorbradavid on April 10, 2022, 06:26:43 AM
you make it sound as if Putin is being manipulated by the U.S.A.  reportedly the greatest geo-politician of the 21st century by some (my opinion is out on this topic at this time).  is he the puppet you infer?

Actually, the US State Dept is armpit deep in this. This could have been avoided.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 10, 2022, 10:31:31 AM
Who's inferring that Putin is a US puppet, I certainly didn't, and if you read my post as stating such, I feel sorry for you...
I don't know what you or anyone has done to support Ukraine, and I'm not interested in the least, BUT, you probably did it from your armchair... That's my point...
 :duh: :duh: :duh: :dh:

Sometimes there seem to be a higher power (not god) that is mutating governments and geo politics.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification still about the money
Post by: Lon on April 10, 2022, 05:23:02 PM
Who's inferring that Putin is a US puppet, I certainly didn't, and if you read my post as stating such, I feel sorry for you...
I don't know what you or anyone has done to support Ukraine, and I'm not interested in the least, BUT, you probably did it from your armchair... That's my point...
 :duh: :duh: :duh: :dh:
you deflect from the topic and you have forgotten note#2....and actually, I do not own an arm chair  :biggrin:
you make it sound as if Putin is being manipulated by the U.S.A.  reportedly the greatest geo-politician of the 21st century by some (my opinion is out on this topic at this time).  is he the puppet you infer?

Actually, the US State Dept is armpit deep in this. This could have been avoided.
I do not doubt that the U.S.A. is armpit deep, and I have not tried to minimize their role played. yet you/we need to look around in the cesspool at all the other playmates there. many Russians I know are putting a lot of blame on the U.K. and Boris Johnson (just repeating gossip)
there are a lot of ways that this could have been avoided and everyone has their own list.  still, to say that Putin was manipulated into attacking puts lie to "greatest geopolitician of the 21st century".
I still contend that this "special operation" has nothing or very little to do with, denazification.  it is about money and controlling the resources in that area (eastern Ukraine)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 10, 2022, 05:49:48 PM
FYI "special operation" has legal/organizational implications - just like Korea and Vietnam were "police actions".

Limits what given organizations can do. Call ups, assignments, helping newly recognized states per UN regs., etc.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 10, 2022, 05:56:25 PM
If you look at this first Russia tried to take the whole country by capturing Kiev and turnover the government. Since that did not work, they are trying to take everything valuable out of the country. All the ports, the best farmland, vast majority of the minerals, mines and most of the industrial areas. Somehow the Nazis are only where the valuable stuff is.  Ukraine is being robbed and then people here say they are 50 per cent responsible for the problem. Yes, they let Russia rob them and there would not be a war.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 11, 2022, 05:18:41 AM
If you look at this first Russia tried to take the whole country by capturing Kiev and turnover the government.

No they didn't. That was never the intention. Which bit of Yahoo did you dredge this fake news nugget from?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on April 11, 2022, 08:21:12 AM
Who's inferring that Putin is a US puppet, I certainly didn't, and if you read my post as stating such, I feel sorry for you...
I don't know what you or anyone has done to support Ukraine, and I'm not interested in the least, BUT, you probably did it from your armchair... That's my point...
 :duh: :duh: :duh: :dh:

Gipsy.... Any idea which very high peronality or name (maybe) is hiding and is protected under the underground  Marioupol shelters........by that large number of Nazi fighters AZOV or Mercenaries send by the Americans?

I just wonder where is the last head of the CIA Bill Burns ... as I have not heard much about him lately and also wonder why Putin is not attacking hard the Shelters occupied by the Azov and few Ukrainian soldiers?

Just curious.....strange things happening ........ I am sure Russia and Putin know about those very large underground size war shelters..... :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on April 11, 2022, 08:45:20 AM
Captured Wagner contractor.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on April 11, 2022, 04:15:29 PM
Only one man is responsible for the lack of peace in Europe now.

The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now: Fomenting regime change in 2014, installing at least one puppet president, arming neo nazis there to prolong a civil war since then, dangling carrots at Zelensky to make him think he could pull off getting Donbass back, stuff the country with nukes and join NATO, not encouraging diplomacy that would have prevented the current conflict and arming Ukraine to prolong the current conflict.

That's your geopolitics lesson for today, Contrarian. No amount of oversized quotes, or repetitive, verbose windsockery by you from your double-wide will change any of those facts.


Nice try bud. Here is a link for you to read a real analyst.

https://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=29932.new#new
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. all about money
Post by: dorbradavid on April 11, 2022, 05:04:14 PM

1. The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now: Fomenting regime change in 2014

2. What was Putin supposed to do??, Backing off and allow the US move into Ukraine, I think NOT...

3. In reality, the US holds the responsibility for ALL the worlds problems...

1. This is something an amazoing number of westerners conveniently ignore, including the "russia fixed the 2016 election" crowd.
2. Yeah, Putin stated in 2008 in Budapest what he would do unless the west backed off.
3. A bit strong.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. all about money
Post by: Texan77 on April 11, 2022, 05:14:03 PM


1. The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now: Fomenting regime change in 2014

2. What was Putin supposed to do??, Backing off and allow the US move into Ukraine, I think NOT...

3. In reality, the US holds the responsibility for ALL the worlds problems...

Yes If the Russian Nazis would been able to take over the Ukraine and conduct their genocide then they would not have to do it now. In donbas over two thirds of the population either died or left. Now a larger part of Ukraine will be subject to the same  fate. The pro Nazai supporters on this site seem to find that a great idea.
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on April 15, 2022, 02:27:07 PM
The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now

Horsesh!t,

The US contributed to the problems for sure. Russia and the USA have been
poking at each other since the end of WW2. The USA threw a few dollars
around and a regime change happened. The USA did not send in troops
and defeat a legitimate government and put in a Puppet. Stop implying
that we did.

Your Neo Nazi crap is pure fiction. The percentage of Ukrainians who are
Nazi's in not any higher than in Russia, Austria or the UK. They have Nazi's
in Ukraine as well as Canada. You have been totally silent about the prominent
Nazi's in Russia although it has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread.

dangling carrots at Zelensky to make him think he could pull off getting Donbass back, stuff the country with nukes and join NATO, not encouraging diplomacy that would have prevented the current conflict and arming Ukraine to prolong the current conflict.


How praytell was Zelensky going to get Donbass back? What carrot could have caused
him to believe that was possible? Whoops, there was nothing promised and nothing
that could have been promised that would make that a reality.

That's your geopolitics lesson for today, Contrarian. No amount of oversized quotes, or repetitive, verbose windsockery by you from your double-wide will change any of those facts.

Your world view has no room for opposing information, data or theories that hasn't
been officially approved by the Vladimir and his henchmen. You ignore the debate
when you lose, (obvious to everyone here) then go right back to your previously
defeated arguments a few days later as if they were still valid.

Windsockery, I am going to use that in the future somewhere.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 15, 2022, 03:22:49 PM
You're going over stuff that has already been discussed, Bill. It's in this very thread.

Windsockery, you're welcome.  tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 15, 2022, 05:18:07 PM
The US is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine now

Horsesh!t,

The US contributed to the problems for sure. Russia and the USA have been
poking at each other since the end of WW2. The USA threw a few dollars
around and a regime change happened. The USA did not send in troops
and defeat a legitimate government and put in a Puppet. Stop implying
that we did.


 

I don't think anybody was implying that the US had put troops in Ukraine. 

We in the US go about things differently.  Throwing money around is indeed often the way we spark regime changes more favorable to our interests. When our  interests are prioritized that puts us in the position to gain more money into our fold, which is then in turn used to throw more money around in another region to once again prioritize our interests.  Aside from outright bombing, money is one of our most lethal weapons in cases like Russia, where bombing isn't feasible. 
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. rehashed?
Post by: Lon on April 15, 2022, 06:33:09 PM
You're going over stuff that has already been discussed, Bill Manny. It's in this very thread.
:biggrin:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 15, 2022, 07:25:00 PM

I don't think anybody was implying that the US had put troops in Ukraine. 

We in the US go about things differently.  Throwing money around is indeed often the way we spark regime changes more favorable to our interests. When our  interests are prioritized that puts us in the position to gain more money into our fold, which is then in turn used to throw more money around in another region to once again prioritize our interests.  Aside from outright bombing, money is one of our most lethal weapons in cases like Russia, where bombing isn't feasible.

Not arguing - Nuland was especiallybrazen about this in 2014-15. I have trouble understand how we are so blatant about this, this thurn around and accuse other countires of interfering in our elections. All countries do this.
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on April 15, 2022, 07:34:45 PM
You're going over stuff that has already been discussed, Bill. It's in this very thread.

Windsockery, you're welcome.  tiphat

I thought you ignored some of them. Did I miss the rebuttal about the Nazi's
the Kremlin held in high esteem. Did I miss the rebuttal about the low
percentage of Nazi's in Ukraine being equivalent to that of other country's.
Or that not a single elected official is or represents a far right party.

If I missed it, let me know and I will reread every one of your posts in this
thread. Did you cover them in a different thread? I don't read every thread
anymore. I have a wife and a 7 year old and that is a bundle to keep up with.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 16, 2022, 08:00:26 PM
You guys have got to understand a very simple fact. It is Russia faults that the government in Ukraine leans so much to the west because Russia keeps always threaten it. WE did not install the government in Ukraine the people of Ukraine voted it in. Nato has thirty countries not because of something the USA did but rather Russia's behavior. Ukraine wants to join Nato not because of something the USA did but because how they are treated by Russia. Finland and Sweden are interested in Joining Nato not because something USA is doing but because of Russia behavior.  Now Russia is putting weapons on Finland's border which is doing the opposite of what Russia wants. It is convincing Finland they need Nato. I thought we had some bad diplomacy with some of our lunatic USA leaders, but Putin is totally out doing anything we have done.  This thing about Nazis is just a bunch of bull to justify Putin's quest to make Russia great again. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 16, 2022, 08:06:28 PM
MRGA.
 
Hmm.
Some MRGA  hats and shirts with hammer and sickle  are probably coming out any day now.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on April 16, 2022, 08:35:37 PM
You guys have got to understand a very simple fact. It is Russia faults that the government in Ukraine leans so much to the west because Russia keeps always threaten it. WE did not install the government in Ukraine the people of Ukraine voted it in. Nato has thirty countries not because of something the USA did but rather Russia's behavior. Ukraine wants to join Nato not because of something the USA did but because how they are treated by Russia. Finland and Sweden are interested in Joining Nato not because something USA is doing but because of Russia behavior.  Now Russia is putting weapons on Finland's border which is doing the opposite of what Russia wants. It is convincing Finland they need Nato. I thought we had some bad diplomacy with some of our lunatic USA leaders, but Putin is totally out doing anything we have done.  This thing about Nazis is just a bunch of bull to justify Putin's quest to make Russia great again.

It seems reading both Russian and Western sites that V. Putin does not fully grasp the rejection that the West has to his quest. He is no longer the pragmatic ex KGB politburo Colonel but rather a despot who does not see the ruin that will be left after his actions.

As some have feared and stated before this may not end well for humanity.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on April 16, 2022, 08:38:54 PM
MRGA.

MRGA = Make Russia Glow Again?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on April 17, 2022, 03:14:07 AM
You guys have got to understand a very simple fact. It is Russia faults that the government in Ukraine leans so much to the west because Russia keeps always threaten it. :laugh:
WE did not install the government in Ukraine the people of Ukraine voted it in. :ROFL:
Nato has thirty countries not because of something the USA did but rather Russia's behavior.  :ROFL:

Ukraine wants to join Nato not because of something the USA did but because how they are treated by Russia. :'(

Finland and Sweden are interested in Joining Nato not because something USA is doing but because of Russia behavior.  The area between Russia and Finland has no army bases and only wondefrul wooden houses, forests and lovely grass views. etc.....Been there and drove right on the frontiers without any problems.....had a coffeee and back to Archangelsk.

Now Russia is putting weapons on Finland's border which is doing the opposite of what Russia wants.
It is convincing Finland they need Nato. I thought we had some bad diplomacy with some of our lunatic USA leaders, but Putin is totally out doing anything we have done.  This thing about Nazis is just a bunch of bull to justify Putin's quest to make Russia great again.

Do you remember the name of the Asylum from where you have escaped..?
Maybe you will need to remember to tell the police, where to take you back, when they find you!
:dh:

Karelia  is called the the area between Russia and Finland,  has no army bases and only wondefrul wooden houses, churches, forests and lovely green grass views. etc.....Been there and drove right on the frontiers with Finland without any problems.....had a coffeee in a bar nearbuy and back to Archangelsk which is a very beautifull town.

Good luck, stop your childish hobbies and talking Porky Pies    :ROFL:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 17, 2022, 07:30:39 AM
You're going over stuff that has already been discussed, Bill. It's in this very thread.

Windsockery, you're welcome.  tiphat

I thought you ignored some of them. Did I miss the rebuttal about the Nazi's
the Kremlin held in high esteem. Did I miss the rebuttal about the low
percentage of Nazi's in Ukraine being equivalent to that of other country's.
Or that not a single elected official is or represents a far right party.

If I missed it, let me know and I will reread every one of your posts in this
thread. Did you cover them in a different thread? I don't read every thread
anymore. I have a wife and a 7 year old and that is a bundle to keep up with.

This is probably one of the best articles I have read (https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine/) that encapsulates my understanding at the moment.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 17, 2022, 08:05:49 AM

Finland and Sweden are interested in Joining Nato not because something USA is doing but because of Russia behavior.  The area between Russia and Finland has no army bases and only wondefrul wooden houses, forests and lovely grass views. etc.....Been there and drove right on the frontiers without any problems.....had a coffeee and back to Archangelsk.

Now Russia is putting weapons on Finland's border which is doing the opposite of what Russia wants.
It is convincing Finland they need Nato. I thought we had some bad diplomacy with some of our lunatic USA leaders, but Putin is totally out doing anything we have done.  This thing about Nazis is just a bunch of bull to justify Putin's quest to make Russia great again. [/size]

Ok, a reality check.

1. Karelia is the are (both in Finland and Russia) north of St. Pete.
2. Russia has had military base in Karelia since the 1940 Winter War, about 60 km from the current Finland/Russia border. Currently used for AFV storage.
3. The Georgia and Ukraine "trigger" has been trying to join NATO. Russia has labled that an "esistential threat". Not saying I agree - but they don't need you and I to agree.
Do you remember the name of the Asylum from where you have escaped..?
Maybe you will need to remember to tell the police, where to take you back, when they find you!
:dh:

Karelia  is called the the area between Russia and Finland,  has no army bases and only wondefrul wooden houses, churches, forests and lovely green grass views. etc.....Been there and drove right on the frontiers with Finland without any problems.....had a coffeee in a bar nearbuy and back to Archangelsk which is a very beautifull town.

Good luck, stop your childish hobbies and talking Porky Pies    :ROFL:

[/quote]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on April 17, 2022, 08:41:18 AM
DorbraDavid, you need to work on you quoting skills. If Wiz and I can do this so can you!
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on April 17, 2022, 02:05:31 PM

Finland and Sweden are interested in Joining Nato not because something USA is doing but because of Russia behavior.  The area between Russia and Finland has no army bases and only wondefrul wooden houses, forests and lovely grass views. etc.....Been there and drove right on the frontiers without any problems.....had a coffeee and back to Archangelsk.

Now Russia is putting weapons on Finland's border which is doing the opposite of what Russia wants.
It is convincing Finland they need Nato. I thought we had some bad diplomacy with some of our lunatic USA leaders, but Putin is totally out doing anything we have done.  This thing about Nazis is just a bunch of bull to justify Putin's quest to make Russia great again. [/size]

Ok, a reality check.

1. Karelia is the are (both in Finland and Russia) north of St. Pete.
2. Russia has had military base in Karelia since the 1940 Winter War, about 60 km from the current Finland/Russia border. Currently used for AFV storage.
3. The Georgia and Ukraine "trigger" has been trying to join NATO. Russia has labled that an "esistential threat". Not saying I agree - but they don't need you and I to agree.
Do you remember the name of the Asylum from where you have escaped..?
Maybe you will need to remember to tell the police, where to take you back, when they find you!
:dh:

Karelia  is called the the area between Russia and Finland,  has no army bases and only wondefrul wooden houses, churches, forests and lovely green grass views. etc.....Been there and drove right on the frontiers with Finland without any problems.....had a coffeee in a bar nearbuy and back to Archangelsk which is a very beautifull town.

Good luck, stop your childish hobbies and talking Porky Pies    :ROFL:


dorbradavid

1) Have you ever been abroad anywhwere ?

2) Take a look at your avatar and then comeback to talk to us about your world experience..... :'(

3) Take notice of the Kind comments made by AvHdB...... he is been very polite to you.... I am a different person. I have travelled several times to Florida , N Y, Los Angeless.

For many many years there have been no problems between Russia and Finland and is pretty obvious who is behind of all the rubish you are talking!

At least some of us have a passport and have visited many places of the ex USSR countries, enjoyed the company of many beutiful Russian or Ukrainian women, most of us married one.... while you give the impression that you need GPS to find your toilet at home!

 :evilgrin0002:
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification Wiz's reading comprehension
Post by: Lon on April 17, 2022, 05:43:00 PM
dorbradavid
1) Have you ever been abroad anywhwere ?

2) Take a look at your avatar and then comeback to talk to us about your world experience..... :'(

3) Take notice of the Kind comments made by AvHdB...... he is been very polite to you.... I am a different person. I have travelled several times to Florida , N Y, Los Angeless.

For many many years there have been no problems between Russia and Finland and is pretty obvious who is behind of all the rubish you are talking!

At least some of us have a passport and have visited many places of the ex USSR countries, enjoyed the company of many beutiful Russian or Ukrainian women, most of us married one.... while you give the impression that you need GPS to find your toilet at home!

yes, most of us have looked at his avatar and drew different conclusions on his world travel experience
some of us even read his introductory post also, unlike you.

yep, you are a very different person than most of us!  making sure that every post is insulting and belittling.  and then bragging on your own world travels to L.A., N.Y. (was that city or state) and Florida.  at least tell us somewhere interesting next time  :Zzzzsleep:

for many years there have been no problems between Finland and Russia...all the way up to the "special operation" and it is pretty obvious who is to blame.  at least to all that realize that there are no vacuums in the geopolitical world.  try to remember, Wiz, that the pigs mud hole is quite large and the U.S. (your favorite and only villain) is not the only one bathing there

he might have given you the impression of needing a GPS, but nobody else is seeing that.  only you.  can you guess what impression that everyone else is getting of you?  do you need a hint?  it does not involve his GPS
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrew99 on April 17, 2022, 05:50:59 PM
You're going over stuff that has already been discussed, Bill. It's in this very thread.

Windsockery, you're welcome.  tiphat

I thought you ignored some of them. Did I miss the rebuttal about the Nazi's
the Kremlin held in high esteem. Did I miss the rebuttal about the low
percentage of Nazi's in Ukraine being equivalent to that of other country's.
Or that not a single elected official is or represents a far right party.

If I missed it, let me know and I will reread every one of your posts in this
thread. Did you cover them in a different thread? I don't read every thread
anymore. I have a wife and a 7 year old and that is a bundle to keep up with.

This is probably one of the best articles I have read (https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine/) that encapsulates my understanding at the moment.

The author is none other than the controversial Jacques Baud .

https://www.thepostil.com/author/jacques-baud/

"While the West likes to “soften up” the battlefield with intensive and prolonged strikes, before sending in ground-troops, the Russians prefer a less destructive, but more troop-intensive approach" .

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 18, 2022, 05:59:26 AM

dorbradavid

1) Have you ever been abroad anywhwere ?

2) Take a look at your avatar and then comeback to talk to us about your world experience..... :'(

3) Take notice of the Kind comments made by AvHdB...... he is been very polite to you.... I am a different person. I have travelled several times to Florida , N Y, Los Angeless.

For many many years there have been no problems between Russia and Finland and is pretty obvious who is behind of all the rubish you are talking!

At least some of us have a passport and have visited many places of the ex USSR countries, enjoyed the company of many beutiful Russian or Ukrainian women, most of us married one.... while you give the impression that you need GPS to find your toilet at home!

 :evilgrin0002:

Buzzz .... and thank you for playing ..... Have you ever seen someone say or do something that let you know that they may be their village idiot? Or perhaps even the city idiot? (James Carr).

1. I have been abroad in the far east, Europe and the middle east for years both as a child (father was in the US military) and as an adult (also an officer in the US military). After retiring, I used to spend my summers and winters in Eastern Europe (tenured faculty.) A bit more than the 1-2 weeks most westerners can spend.

2. I would think my avatar would indicate I have some familiarity with eastern Europe, including an ex-spouse from Ukraine. We were married in the largest catholic cathedral in Kiev. Am I an "expert"? I  don't consider myself one.

3. Congrats on traveling several times to the US. I attended Oxford for a bit. Lot's of good memories of England (albeit more than 15 years ago). My bucket list included sailing across the Atlantic, then down the Rhine and Danube to the Black Sea, then up the Deniper. That's been put on hold.  :duh:

 
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on April 18, 2022, 09:51:56 AM

I don't think anybody was implying that the US had put troops in Ukraine. 

We in the US go about things differently.  Throwing money around is indeed often the way we spark regime changes more favorable to our interests. When our  interests are prioritized that puts us in the position to gain more money into our fold, which is then in turn used to throw more money around in another region to once again prioritize our interests.  Aside from outright bombing, money is one of our most lethal weapons in cases like Russia, where bombing isn't feasible.

Manny has repeatedly said that the USA overthrew the legitimate Putin puppet
Ukrainian president that Russia bought and paid for. 

Now Manny's point is that Russia has a legitimate reason to send in tanks
because the puppet government they paid for was unable to stay in power.
It was Ukrainians that removed Russia's corrupt puppet President.

Every Ukrainian official above the level of dog catcher has been corrupt
and for sale to the highest bidder since the breakup of the Soviet Union.
So now we get crocodile tears and tanks because one purchased politician
couldn't keep himself in power?

World Geopolitics isn't Amazon where you buy a politician and get a replacement
or your money back if things don't work out. Besides they've had elections since
then. You gotta buy a new politician every time there is an election. Unlike
Russia, in Ukraine you don't have life time appointments to positions of power.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 18, 2022, 10:33:56 AM

I don't think anybody was implying that the US had put troops in Ukraine. 

We in the US go about things differently.  Throwing money around is indeed often the way we spark regime changes more favorable to our interests. When our  interests are prioritized that puts us in the position to gain more money into our fold, which is then in turn used to throw more money around in another region to once again prioritize our interests.  Aside from outright bombing, money is one of our most lethal weapons in cases like Russia, where bombing isn't feasible.

Manny has repeatedly said that the USA overthrew the legitimate Putin puppet
Ukrainian president that Russia bought and paid for. 

Now Manny's point is that Russia has a legitimate reason to send in tanks
because the puppet government they paid for was unable to stay in power.
It was Ukrainians that removed Russia's corrupt puppet President.

Every Ukrainian official above the level of dog catcher has been corrupt
and for sale to the highest bidder since the breakup of the Soviet Union.
So now we get crocodile tears and tanks because one purchased politician
couldn't keep himself in power?

World Geopolitics isn't Amazon where you buy a politician and get a replacement
or your money back if things don't work out. Besides they've had elections since
then. You gotta buy a new politician every time there is an election. Unlike
Russia, in Ukraine you don't have life time appointments to positions of power.
What you say may well be true.   USA has more money (Printed) than others so we can buy much more and that ability has permitted us to gain even more wealth it would appear.   Since Russia doesn't have the ability to win in that arena, they have chosen to resort to an old way of doing things.  A ground war. If that doesn't go well enough I wouldn't be surprised if they use their smaller nukes to demolish all resistance since their options are more limited.  I don't see them permitting Ukraine to stand as independent at this point, because clearly Russia can't be forgiven by Ukrainians for what they have already done.     Now that it has reached this point, I suspect either Ukraine will be a de facto Russian possession or it will not exist at all.   Just my opinion of course, and as I'm sure you are aware I'm not always right. 

We (The USA) are able to use our weapons in numerous wars in the middle east and have destroyed entire countries also.  Normally we can get nations to bend to our will through financial pressure but that has been steadily weakening.  Nations such as Iran, Cuba, North Korea, and Venezuela have withstood our pressures for now. Others like Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan are some that have paid for ignoring US pressure.   

Maybe there is some sort of off-ramp regarding Russia-Ukraine but after so much destruction it seems to be less likely than it may have been 2 months ago. 

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on April 18, 2022, 01:32:39 PM
Since Russia doesn't have the ability to win in that arena, they have chosen to resort to an old way of doing things.

By accident or design, it seems that Russia might just have a rather significant weapon of economic warfare that does not require the printing of money and consequent inflation.

While the use of nuclear weapons is possible, I rather doubt that they will be used in this conflict. There is no need for it.

Of course, if the conflict is broadened by the collective west then all bets are off. However, it is notable that the Russians do seem to be keeping most of their forces in reserve for such a contingency.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 18, 2022, 04:29:25 PM
There is no need for tactical nukes.
It would absolutely  elicite an unknown but likely serious responce by the west which would not help russian goals.

They have weapons just as effective, 
but those are on the edge of eliciting an unknown level of response if used extensively ,so those are also doubtful.
Although it seems thry may have used one or two early in this?


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 18, 2022, 05:15:51 PM
There is no need for tactical nukes.
It would absolutely  elicite an unknown but likely serious responce by the west which would not help russian goals.
 
What type of response would you guess...

If Russia were to use tactical nukes I don't think there would be much of a military response, because once that taboo is broken, it could be broken again more and more often from Russia.   At that point, they may feel they have nothing much to lose whereas the west has everything to lose.   Insofar as goals go, they will probably wind up with Ukraine and deal with a forever problem in having it. 

Jonas!   
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrew99 on April 19, 2022, 07:16:16 AM
this thread is about nazis in ukraine which there doesnt seem to be much evidence left for this.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 19, 2022, 07:21:15 AM
this thread is about nazis in ukraine which there doesnt seem to be much evidence left for this.

You should get a job at the BBC, you'd be perfect for them.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Russia has since last night launched a continual air offensive along a 300 mile section of the border. I wonder how you "Russia is losing" folks will spin that. Final chapter in progress now.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 19, 2022, 07:29:45 AM
Jonas ,my point is they could accomplish same without the risk tactical nukes would cause.
The west absolutely would respond in some way, not nessarily a military responce but certainly something significant.
That's an escalation I don't think Russia will chance.
They are not backed into a corner as you tend to imply.
They can retreat to their border afterall,they can negotiate a stronger position economically as well.
They still hold the main points in this.

Big bite then concession to smaller bite is historically they way,and I think eventually it's what we will see

Donbas to Russia and perhaps the kherson oblast area land Bridge to crimea.

They don't need to use tactical nukes to get there.

I think the southern coast line  and ports of mikolaev to Odessa is ukraines red line.
If Russia controls that they end up like Moldova a poor fate.

So I believe Russia will have to decide just how  far this goes. Settle for consessions of the South Eastern parts of their cutrent advance puts them.in that position, . Or go for basically strangling the country at much greater cost.

Sadly in either case I think hostilities would continue off and on for decades now

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 19, 2022, 07:43:12 AM
this thread is about nazis in ukraine which there doesnt seem to be much evidence left for this.

You should get a job at the BBC, you'd be perfect for them.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Russia has since last night launched a continual air offensive along a 300 mile section of the border. I wonder how you "Russia is losing" folks will spin that. Final chapter in progress now.

No doubt they have started a large air supported offensive. Which is a more expected approach and likely far more effective.

Those trench systems have been in place for 8 years so it's still puzzling why they dint do that initially.

Russia was never losing the conflict, but certainly lost the initial advance to kyiv.

In the east and south they took the edges and Mariupol, kherson etc and controlled the black sea.
(As Ukrainian navy never really existed that's not a surprise ,but it is very significant)
They initially lost some pushes past mikolaev ,but otherwise have held their initial southern advance.

I think the view of Ukraine winning* was far more from.the fact they defended well and regime hasn't changed.

I agree that's not winning the conflict.

If Ukraine were to spin the recent russian offensive as well as russia has spun their loss of kyiv assualt and loss of moskva

They would thank Russia  for the  free spring plowing of farm fields.

They did certainly carpet bomb/shell/missle that entire entrenched donbas  area. There is hardly a spot without a crater for miles


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 19, 2022, 07:44:32 AM
Jonas ,my point is they could accomplish same without the risk tactical nukes would cause.
The west absolutely would respond in some way, not nessarily a military responce but certainly something significant.
That's an escalation I don't think Russia will chance.
They are not backed into a corner as you tend to imply.
They can retreat to their border afterall,they can negotiate a stronger position economically as well.
They still hold the main points in this.

Big bite then concession to smaller bite is historically they way,and I think eventually it's what we will see

Donbas to Russia and perhaps the kherson oblast area land Bridge to crimea.

They don't need to use tactical nukes to get there.

I think the southern coast line  and ports of mikolaev to Odessa is ukraines red line.
If Russia controls that they end up like Moldova a poor fate.

So I believe Russia will have to decide just how  far this goes. Settle for consessions of the South Eastern parts of their cutrent advance puts them.in that position, . Or go for basically strangling the country at much greater cost.

Sadly in either case I think hostilities would continue off and on for decades now

Thanks for you viewpoint.    I think at this point Russia is going to go all in for the big bite.  They are already on track to be a pariah state, so nothing much left to lose in that regard. 
One additional reason Russia may put nukes on the table is the fear factor it would induce.  If their goal is to take all of Ukraine, or most of it, they are going to want to clear the population of unfriendlys   Dropping a tactical nuke (With the threat of more) might kill tens of thousands, and scatter tens of millions into Europe or Russia.  In that sense their spin could be it would be 'saving lives'.    Just tossing it out there because given the western weaponry, tactics, and manpower, I think Russia is going to be in for very stiff resistance forever.  Completely clearing the region and walling it off ends a lot of that.   I suppose far fetched for the moment, although I can see scenarios where it comes to pass. 

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 19, 2022, 08:03:37 AM
If their goal is to take all of Ukraine,

That has never been mentioned. Nothing much has happened in the west and isn't likely to.

Russia was never losing the conflict, but certainly lost the initial advance to kyiv.

I think the view of Ukraine winning* was far more from.the fact they defended well and regime hasn't changed.

Kiev was never a takeover target, nor was regime change.

The Ukraine winning narrative comes from all the fake news they put out and western media lapping it up. They are winning the propaganda war, thats about all.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 19, 2022, 09:26:34 AM
Manny,  to me that seems a tad bit of revisionist history.

I'll have to go watch putins initial speachs again and russian defense ministries press releases.

The push towards kyiv was to dehead the snake ( or maybe those where your words? Or another posters here?)

Or to force regime to claim neutrality.
Neither occured from.that push.

Regardless ,
Kyiv wasn't a feint move.

Its purpose * wasn't to capture* kyivs  suburbs then fall back.
 It wasn't to dispersed ukrainian troops since it dispersed their own and they were not prepared to.immeduately push on the Donbass.
 They gave plenty of time for ukraine to move those troops to the south east.


It was a failed offensive.

Its noteworthy that.while russia is winning they can't admit to any mistep.

The moskva will remain a legacy of incompetence from this.

How many arrests have been made? Is that normal if things in an operation are going according to plan?

I'm sure russia will get some of it's check points accomished.






Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 19, 2022, 09:58:47 AM
If their goal is to take all of Ukraine,

That has never been mentioned. Nothing much has happened in the west and isn't likely to.

Russia was never losing the conflict, but certainly lost the initial advance to kyiv.

I think the view of Ukraine winning* was far more from.the fact they defended well and regime hasn't changed.

Kiev was never a takeover target, nor was regime change.

The Ukraine winning narrative comes from all the fake news they put out and western media lapping it up. They are winning the propaganda war, thats about all.
You are probably right although it is difficult to know for sure what is really going on.  Western media does have most people convinced Russia is getting trounced.  I'm not sure what to believe.  It would seem that Russia will start running out of weaponry if indeed new supplies are cut off.   If that were to occur, I can see a need to wrap up the goals at a more rapid pace by whatever means necessary.

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on April 19, 2022, 10:21:53 AM
Jonas! Rather than relying on what you're told to think, refer to what Mr Putin said at the outset of the operation.

The move toward Kiev was a feint, a distraction. Its purpose served, troops moved on to new objectives.

Within the possibilities available during a conflict, the Russian military has been open about their operations.

Taking over Kiev was not on the cards. There was not the manpower to do it. But tying down the Ukrainian forces in the area until it was no longer possible to move them in support of the forces in the east? Yup, that was done.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 19, 2022, 11:23:43 AM

Kiev was never a takeover target, nor was regime change.

The Ukraine winning narrative comes from all the fake news they put out and western media lapping it up. They are winning the propaganda war, thats about all.

I disagree. I think (remember Operation Market Garden/aka "a bridge too far") it was based on faulty intelligence. So it doesn't work, you move to Plan B. "Wars are uncertain things" - Queen Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 19, 2022, 01:03:39 PM
In andrews world  the north Russian troops moved on to New objectives

Where would those be?
Kharkiv? And further south.?

Finland? Africa? Kirill islands?

Why would they not stay in ,place, probe a bit and truly occupy those Ukrainian troops time? They were already.there and they can't make donbass faster than Ukraine troops


Why would the new  offensive not  have been.launched  when those troops were tied up ,versus 2 weeks later.
Why give Z time to get more aid , fortify defensive positions, and mobilize more men?


Somehow Ukrainian battalions in kyiv are shackled to chestnut trees and can't make donbass in the 2 weeks from.Russian withdrawal to.the newly launched offensive


An ineffective offensive,
 or an inefffctive  feint that wasted equipiment and more importantly experienced troops.

But no pro russian can admit that.

It doesn't take western media to spin it.

It takes the hysteria on russian news calling for anniliation of Ukrainians,and a call to media censorship like China has as being a positive thing .
 A flurry of arrests.
The loss of their flagship.

They were initially  ineffective.

Ultimately they will likely accomplish their goals .They have the shear volume of manpower and equipment.

Taking a feint at kyiv was not some brilliant play,or it would have ALREADY been acted on when the troops were occupied,not after 2 weeks when they can be relocated if need be and the very costly  feint far less effective.




Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification the 'feint'
Post by: Lon on April 19, 2022, 02:01:37 PM

Kiev was never a takeover target, nor was regime change.

The Ukraine winning narrative comes from all the fake news they put out and western media lapping it up. They are winning the propaganda war, thats about all.

nobody thinks that the Russian military could have taken over Kiev (except the persons who thought they might be welcomed with open arms and flowers). that certainly looked like a pincer move to encircle Kiev (IMO)
"nor a regime change"?  that is certainly your opinion

Jonas! Rather than relying on what you're told to think, refer to what Mr Putin said at the outset of the operation.

The move toward Kiev was a feint, a distraction. Its purpose served, troops moved on to new objectives.

Within the possibilities available during a conflict, the Russian military has been open about their operations.

Taking over Kiev was not on the cards. There was not the manpower to do it. But tying down the Ukrainian forces in the area until it was no longer possible to move them in support of the forces in the east? Yup, that was done.

and were now to believe what Putin or any world leader tells us?  he/they are going to be telling us their intentions upfront.  you are still talking about the 'denazification' of Ukraine.  is that what you are still believing?

I have read through the Russian statements regarding there 'feint'.  it certainly looked like the same moves the Russian military were doing in other parts of Ukraine, attempting to surround the city, to cut off supplies.  because it failed, now it is a 'feint'?  rather than a result of very poor planning or faulty intelligence?  Russia certainly sacrificed a lot of elite paratroopers for that feint.

quoted from article...of course, just an opinion
"Though Russia maintains that its offensive on Kyiv was merely a ruse to keep Ukrainian forces busy while degrading their combat capabilities and advancing elsewhere, and that the retreat from the Kyiv operational zone was to give space for negotiations, it doesn't take a skeptic to point out that these are mere face-saving excuses for grave military failures."
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/destination-disaster-russias-failure-at.html
the article has a few other 'opinions' about the Russian 'special operation'

(the under written being my opinion)
to have it just be the 'feint' to draw Ukrainian forces away from the main thrust in the east might be a sound doctrine.  except...now the Russian military is moving the forces from the north to the eastern front.  refitting those military forces, which may take some time.  all the while the Ukrainian forces are moving to the eastern front also, with shorter a distance to march.
now, pulling in train load after after train load of military vehicles (artillery, MRLS and tanks) from the Russian east to also bolster the attack in the Kramatorsk area.  they did not have enough forces in the beginning?  why not, if this was the main target all the time (it was, but not for denazification)?  which Russian military leader is raising his hand to take responsibility for the great achievements in Ukraine?
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on April 19, 2022, 03:23:04 PM
they can't admit to any mistep.

That sounds like several Russian women that I dated (not Angel Eyes).
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 19, 2022, 04:50:39 PM
they can't admit to any mistep.

That sounds like several Russian women that I dated (not Angel Eyes).

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on April 19, 2022, 05:00:36 PM
they can't admit to any mistep.

That sounds like several Russian women that I dated (not Angel Eyes).
:laugh: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on April 20, 2022, 12:37:47 AM
they can't admit to any mistep.

That sounds like several Russian women that I dated (not Angel Eyes).

The one whom must be obeyed. And they're never wrong. And they are no longer in my life.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on April 20, 2022, 04:07:09 AM
Guys, do not rely upon what you are told to think by people who have an interest in lying to you.

I and people who know much more than I were saying the same stuff from the outset, based upon what the Russians were saying.

There was no intention of taking Kiev. Yes, if the Ukrainian government had folded in the first few days then, of course, Russia would have been well chuffed. They might even have hoped that would be the outcome - but it was not the expectation.

There were not enough troops to attain that goal.

It is fun to have fantasies fed by people who are well paid to fluff you. There's a great website for that www.xvid.com. But it ain't the real world.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 20, 2022, 07:35:36 AM
Guys, do not rely upon what you are told to think by people who have an interest in lying to you.

I and people who know much more than I were saying the same stuff from the outset, based upon what the Russians were saying.

There was no intention of taking Kiev. Yes, if the Ukrainian government had folded in the first few days then, of course, Russia would have been well chuffed. They might even have hoped that would be the outcome - but it was not the expectation.

There were not enough troops to attain that goal.

It is fun to have fantasies fed by people who are well paid to fluff you. There's a great website for that www.xvid.com. But it ain't the real world.
My own thought is that Russia would like basically all of Ukraine at this point.   Russia has paid too much in blood and in worldwide consequences to settle now for a little sliver in the East.   If Russia were to settle for a small portion of Ukraine, it would then have a very hostile remaining part of Ukraine on it's border permanently. If that is going to be the case then why not just take it over too while they are already mobilized.... Given what has already happened, If it is not taken over, it will work fiercely against Russian interests forever now.   Ukraine will fight tooth and nail though so no option is great in the short run.  Knowing this is likely to be the case, Russia may choose to use mass casualty weaponry if that is what it takes.  Somebody mentioned chemical weapons, which do make more sense than nuclear, if Russia intends on occupying the land afterworlds. 

   Perhaps from a Russian perspective this war would have never had to happen if Ukraine wasn't moving out of Russian influence and orbit.  Once out of the Russian sphere, countries start to align and work against Russian interests, and I think Russia was sick of the West chipping away and their growing money supply winning out.   

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on April 20, 2022, 08:33:15 AM
Jonas, it is a matter of logistics. It is all about logistics. it is what I look at when evaluating a 'narrative'!

Sorry, my economist's head is on here!

From the outset, the Russians said that occupation was not a desired outcome. That makes perfect sense given the goals that they did set out.

Occupation is very, very expensive in terms of men, equipment and money. There are formulae for working the resource requirements out.

Suffice it to say that the Russian military does not have the manpower to manage an occupation.

The goal was to create an environment where the LDPR were safe and there were political and practical outcomes that would provide that environment. (denazification and demilitarisation) I would extend that and suggest that the Russians do want a form of self-occupation in the region along the black sea between Crimea and the Odessa oblast to remove Ukrainian contact to the Black Sea. In this case, the structures will be similar to those in the LDPR - hence 'self-occupation'. Some support would be needed from the RF, but the overall cost would be much, much lower as the local people would be managing their own statehood, security and economy.

So, while it might be that occupation becomes a requirement due to the situation on the ground, I am certain that it is not a desired outcome.

If the Russian military was much larger and Russia much richer, then I am sure that occupation would have been a desired outcome and in that case, decapitation of the Ukraine regime would have been carried out very early on. The fact that Kiev was surrounded but not attacked tells us that the intent was to keep the Ukrainian government in place - to have a state that could negotiate. That would legitimise any armistice and agreement between Ukraine and Russia. Taking Kiev would have rendered that impossible.

So, that tells me that the fantasies mongered by collective western media fluffers were just that - fantasies designed to program their audoences.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 20, 2022, 09:03:06 AM
I agree occupation was never the goal.
 However Denazification is an utterly false narrative for not using the words pro russian admin ,.

The pressure on kyiv was fully intended to destabilize the population , and force a change in admin  or admins policies .with  extreme immilediate physical.pressures
If Zelensky had proclaimed neutrality mission accomplished as ots a pro russian stance,he would never be reelected .
A coup would have been prefered.

However they never incircled kyiv or closed off supply lines.

The pressure wasn't great enough.

It's a failed op of this conflict

The troops openly amassi.g in Belarus now have the same effect of keeping Ukrainian troops in the north without even engagement.
They could cross 20 kilometers and do the same initially.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 20, 2022, 10:19:16 AM
Somehow Ukrainian battalions in kyiv are shackled to chestnut trees and can't make donbass in the 2 weeks from.Russian withdrawal to.the newly launched offensive

Ok, anyone with a keyboard can comment - but it doesn't necessarily follow that the comment with have merit.

FYI, a LOT of the Ukrainian Territorial units are local to an area. They don't "pick up and move". Not ture for the Russian military. OTOH, the Russian "Rossguarda" units are not "front-line" units. They are occupation troops.  tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 20, 2022, 11:20:57 AM
David,
 I did not say those battalions would move, the sarcastic point  i was making is they aren't tied down there  to.trees by Russia pulling back . My point was its main goal wasn't a.feint  and part of a brilliant plan,as some here  assert.

Additionally kyiv was not defended entirely by local.territorial.units.
 I know people serving there.


If* that territorial unit contention is accurate , and they are mostly  non mobile units,then it more than reinforces my point that.the russian thrust to  kiev wasn't  merely a feint.
The feint would be even.more impracticle if those troops arnt mobile .anyway .
The idea of it being just a  feint
is that  it tied up  Ukrainian troops in the north ,pulling them.from. deployment east and South to aid a russian offensive there. This it naturally would do ,but the retraction did not,
As no offensive was mounted for two weeks after north troop withdrawal.
So again I'd love to hear how such an effective brilliant  feint, waited to launch a new offensive until after any ukrainian  mobile troop  units in the north  ,could have been relocated to the east and west.




Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on April 20, 2022, 12:11:24 PM
David,
 I did not say those battalions would move, the sarcastic point  i was making is they aren't tied down there  to.trees by Russia pulling back . My point was its main goal wasn't a.feint  and part of a brilliant plan,as some here  assert.

Additionally kyiv was not defended entirely by local.territorial.units.
 I know people serving there.


If* that territorial unit contention is accurate , and they are mostly  non mobile units,then it more than reinforces my point that.the russian thrust to  kiev wasn't  merely a feint.
The feint would be even.more impracticle if those troops arnt mobile .anyway .
The idea of it being just a  feint
is that  it tied up  Ukrainian troops in the north ,pulling them.from. deployment east and South to aid a russian offensive there. This it naturally would do ,but the retraction did not,
As no offensive was mounted for two weeks after north troop withdrawal.
So again I'd love to hear how such an effective brilliant  feint, waited to launch a new offensive until after any ukrainian  mobile troop  units in the north  ,could have been relocated to the east and west.

FTR, like everyone else here, I too, am not privy to any of Russia's battle plans. So whatever I opine about this discussion is simply that, an outside observer's opinion.

I reside on the side of the opinion that if Russia planned on a takeover of Kyiv, and engaged in some silly 'regime change' initiative as the US have a habit of, and is really good at doing, I would like to then resort to the very same military operation the US employs during (our) their vast regime change experience.

Bomb the crap out of the target territory for days, if not weeks, before marching our troops into the fray. Works marvelously every time, don't you think?

I didn't see this happen in Kyiv.

So, could it be that their (RU) main focus really where in the territories surrounding the Donbas and port city of Mariupol and (maybe) Odessa?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 20, 2022, 12:40:45 PM
 Bodine,
Sure, i agree that is overall  main intent of the operation.
Big bite ,concession to little bite.a staple in Russian aquired.territories on most every border.🤷‍♂️

Doesn't explain a needless loss of invaluable paratroopers ,tanks, armored vehicles supplies, trucks. Pontoon bridges equipment  used in a Kyiv feint.to retain* Ukrainian troops in.the north from aided the east and south

The mobilized 20k troops in belarus right now accomplish that,and are accomplishing  that  without a single loss.

Of course we dont know russias plan.

We can watch a football play and know when the coach made a poor offensive call.in relation to.the defense after the obvious result.
It's also notable if the coaches are replaced.

If* Russia had mounted a new donbass offensive before troops could be moved a feint makes more sense.
As is no such offiensive.was mounted in.the given time frame of already played events.
Ukrainian troops had time.to.move.
Some certainly did move .
Defensive position had 2 weeks to be fortified and supplied

Western media spins it further as some big defeat ,which it wasnt.

As far as Russian spin,that's equally laughable .
They still cant admit their cruiser was attacked ,and sunk,or any casualties of its crew.
Understandable,but hardly a resource of good information
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on April 20, 2022, 03:03:42 PM
Sure, I can agree having Russians stop short of Kyiv for days as sitting ducks didn't make much sense. Although that wasn't where they suffered great losses. Again, if advancing to Kyiv was the prime objective, Kyiv would be mostly rubbles by now. I don't think anyone can argue about that plausibility.

For football analogy, a play-action-pass doesn't always bode success. There are more than plenty of times defenses can read these well enough not to bite on it. There are more than a few reasons to think nothing in this conflict makes that much sense since day 1.

Losing something as symbolic as losing Mockva is definitely a huge loss, even for Russia. It is still however simply 'symbolic' to this war. It is not a strategic loss, per se. Its presence in the black sea was in air defense support of the actual offensive ships that are bombarding the southern region of Ukraine. As for admitting it was a 'loss', who actually ever do this? We didn't accept defeat in Afghanistan nor Iraq either, did we? GWB didn't recant his premature 'victory declaration in Iraq, did he? Of course not. Somethings are better left unsaid, some simply are unnecessary. I mean the ship 'sunk', what else is there not to admit? That it was fired upon? It's engaged in a war ferchrissakes!

We seem to make so much about details in this conflict we don't yet fully understand. Ready to pounce of assumptions/presumptions according to our personal biases. It isn't surprising Russia is suffering losses in this conflict, but folks seems to easily dismiss losses from the other side. Ukraine, if given the thought, have literally just as many number of soldiers as Russia.  Likely, though without air support, is equally armed to the teeth by virtue of weaponry supplied by the west/US - yet, from my vantage point - Ukraine is losing territory.

Is Ukraine prepared to make this declaration?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 20, 2022, 05:09:18 PM
I'd say so, they  lost melitopol maruipol,kherson.
They absolutely lost ground.

But yes of course nations often ignore or are silent on losses.
The mosckva sticks out as it was quite strategic,and they gave *reasons for it's sinking ,even so far as to intentonally strike the plant alledgedly responcible for  manf. of neptunes..
The result has been those offensive ships pulled back past thier ability to shell the coastal areas.
  That allowed one battalion that I know of to move from odessa to nikolaev and start engaging  the artillery northwest of  kherson that was striking nikolaev area.

It can't be replaced easily during this conflict and as a huge umbrella to work.under it's a bigger loss than just the lose of  face.


As far as flattening kyiv.
No I dont think they could have initially.
 Their mobile artillery units got ambushed routinely,so did thier tanks.
Their air support is minimal for a reason.
They could have sent a lot more missles.
The west reactiin to a much larger city  perhaos seeing maruipols fate from.direct missle strikes throughout  is also an uncertainty.


The damage to maruipol was from having the ability to strike it from.the air while staying in russian airspace,strike it from.the.sea and strike from.local artillery units since they had it incircled and freedom of movement.
It really was in an impossible position.
It tied up Ukrainian troops but also has 12000 or more russian troops engaged in a 5 mile radius.




Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Tom Cat on April 21, 2022, 05:13:30 PM
Russia and Ukraine had made an agreement for the evacuation of civilians from Mariupol,by 2pm but as of 6pm the long line of busses sat empty as the Russian military ignored the agreement.

Putler has already declared Mariupol a success, so why not let the remaining civilians leave?
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. sub strikes
Post by: Lon on April 21, 2022, 05:44:29 PM
this person is explaining why he thinks that many of the Russian Kalibr missiles are coming from the 4 Kilo class subs in the Black sea.
a quick read with a few photos

http://www.hisutton.com/Russian-Submarines-Launching-Missiles-Ukraine.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on April 21, 2022, 05:52:12 PM
Russia and Ukraine had made an agreement for the evacuation of civilians from Mariupol,by 2pm but as of 6pm the long line of busses sat empty as the Russian military ignored the agreement.

Putler has already declared Mariupol a success, so why not let the remaining civilians leave?

Has it crossed your mind that they are refusing to leave?  or the Uk military are preventing them from leaving?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 21, 2022, 09:19:54 PM
How is the Ukraine government keeping them there? Ukraine defenders are hold up in a few tunnels under a steel mill that is completely circled.  Likely they scared to leave because what happen to others who tried to leave.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on April 22, 2022, 02:04:41 AM
How is the Ukraine government keeping them there? Ukraine defenders are hold up in a few tunnels under a steel mill that is completely circled.  Likely they scared to leave because what happen to others who tried to leave.

Yes they are afraid to leave, many have been shot in the back in those corridors. Especially close to those Azov guys.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on April 22, 2022, 09:19:56 AM
I guess now that Mariupol is literally under Russian siege ridding most if not all, of the Azov renegade army, it is technically *denazified*, yes?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on April 22, 2022, 09:28:17 AM
I guess now that Mariupol is literally under Russian siege ridding most if not all, of the Azov renegade army, it is technically *denazified*, yes?

If most of those guys and affiliated groups are decimated, then I'd say yes.

Zelenski + government imho are not nazi.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on April 22, 2022, 10:09:05 AM
I guess now that Mariupol is literally under Russian siege ridding most if not all, of the Azov renegade army, it is technically *denazified*, yes?

Mariupol is not under siege.
That part of the action is ended.

Getting rid of the nationalist forces is part of the denazification process, but not all of it.

Mark is incorrect to say that the Ukrainian government is not 'nazi'. That's not a term I particularly like given that, as with many things in life there is a scale from none to completely.
We do know that at the highest levels the nationalist groups that do strongly associate with ideas and insignia of the German National Socialist Party have significant influence and power. And, yes that includes Zelensky who appeared to have had a Damascene conversion shortly after he became president. In his case, I expect that conversion was self-serving and self-preservatory given what happened up to the point of his conversion.
Title: Denazification hoax
Post by: 2tallbill on April 23, 2022, 01:18:48 PM
This is probably one of the best articles I have read (https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine/) that encapsulates my understanding at the moment.

It could have been written by Putin himself. The article egregiously rewrites history
and vocabulary. I don't think a single sentence in the article is true. It is blatant
propaganda.


Lastly,

You've never rebutted a single argument that I laid out. You just go away from the thread
for a while and act as if your original arguments are still valid. I went back and read
every one of your posts in this thread and guess what? You ignore arguments that
don't buttress your assertions.


 
Title: Denazification hoax
Post by: 2tallbill on April 23, 2022, 01:25:11 PM
Mariupol is not under siege.

From the Oxford English dictionary.
Siege
noun
a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling the surrender of those inside.

From the BBC
"The port city of Mariupol, which has been encircled since the start of March, is now
mostly under the control of Russian forces."

"Several hundred Ukrainian troops remain in the Azovstal metal works factory in
the south of the city, but Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered his forces
to blockade the sprawling industrial complex rather than attempt to take control
of it."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 23, 2022, 01:26:47 PM
this thread is about nazis in ukraine which there doesnt seem to be much evidence left for this.

Perhaps of interest

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 24, 2022, 12:50:25 PM
This is probably one of the best articles I have read (https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine/) that encapsulates my understanding at the moment.

It could have been written by Putin himself. The article egregiously rewrites history
and vocabulary. I don't think a single sentence in the article is true. It is blatant
propaganda.

I appreciate that you folks over the pond have a dishonest media as we do, but if you move outside of the CNN bubble, even to Fox, you'll find more going on and different points of view.

As I said, I find that an excellent article. You are free to disagree.

Lastly,

You've never rebutted a single argument that I laid out. You just go away from the thread
for a while and act as if your original arguments are still valid. I went back and read
every one of your posts in this thread and guess what? You ignore arguments that
don't buttress your assertions.

You asked me a question about Nazis that I answered. You then chased me around the site claiming I hadn't, and even linking you back didn't stop you. If you asked me anything else and didn't get a reply, I either missed it or thought it not worthy of the time needed to respond to something daft. I dont always agree with you but seldom find it painful to engage with you, so if there was something I missed, feel free to link me.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on April 24, 2022, 06:00:48 PM
This is probably one of the best articles I have read (https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine/) that encapsulates my understanding at the moment.

It could have been written by Putin himself. The article egregiously rewrites history
and vocabulary. I don't think a single sentence in the article is true. It is blatant
propaganda.

I appreciate that you folks over the pond have a dishonest media as we do, but if you move outside of the CNN bubble, even to Fox, you'll find more going on and different points of view.

As I said, I find that an excellent article. You are free to disagree.

Lastly,

You've never rebutted a single argument that I laid out. You just go away from the thread
for a while and act as if your original arguments are still valid. I went back and read
every one of your posts in this thread and guess what? You ignore arguments that
don't buttress your assertions.

You asked me a question about Nazis that I answered. You then chased me around the site claiming I hadn't, and even linking you back didn't stop you. If you asked me anything else and didn't get a reply, I either missed it or thought it not worthy of the time needed to respond to something daft. I dont always agree with you but seldom find it painful to engage with you, so if there was something I missed, feel free to link me.

Manny if Putin wants to call out the alt right/Nazis in Ukraine why doesn't he get rid of the alt right/Nazis in Russia as an example for Ukraine to follow?

For instance Putin could get rid of Ramzan Kadyrov? The Head of the Chechen Republic. Putin could tell Kadyrov he has 24 hours to resign or the Russian military will remove him from office.

Then Putin could hold democrat elections in the Chechen Republic to replace Kadyrov. The elections could be observed by international monitors to ensure fairness.

Then Putin could continue purging the alt right/Nazis in Russia. It might take a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_the_Chechen_Republic
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on April 24, 2022, 07:18:03 PM
Westy, It is good to see you posting again!
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on April 24, 2022, 07:37:32 PM
Westy, It is good to see you posting again!

Thank you.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on April 24, 2022, 08:44:37 PM
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws is a human rights lawyer from the UK. Apparently she is part of a team gathering evidence of human rights violence and violations by Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

This team is gathering evidence to prosecute Russia for war crimes. It seems unlikely Putin will ever leave Russia again unless he's given ironclad guarantees of his safety. However, that doesn't mean high ranking officials in the Russian government and high ranking officers won't be charged.

This also means that Putin has much less reason to negotiate an end to the war if he knows he and other members of his government and military might face prosecution for human rights violations in international or foreign courts. It also means that there's more reason for him to invade other countries using the same tactics.

Why not invade Moldova if Russia succeeds in creating a Russian land bridge from Russia to Moldova? After all Russia might be prosecuted for its actions in Ukraine, why not do the same in Moldova?

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russian-troops-tacit-permission-rape-100253848.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2022, 08:49:51 PM
United Nations adopted a Russia initiated resolution: "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of #racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related #intolerance"
130 votes for
2 against

The two nations that were against the resolution to combat Nazism were USA and Ukraine. Seems like the US and Ukraine needed the Azov Battalion and didn't want them to go away. The UN voted on the Resolution Dec 16th, 2021 months before the war.

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1502693816796684293/photo/1

For years Russia told America in private they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. For years Russia told America publicly they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. Russia even took their case to the UN. America didn't listen. Obama and Hillary's Resetting of Relations with Russia to be their friend was a trick played on Russia so they can get involved in Ukraine. Now Ukrainians are paying a price. Obama's puppet Biden and a corrupt Congress will supply Ukraine with an endless supply of money to get more Ukrainians in the fight to punish Russia for stopping their Deep State projects. Waste of our money and waste of Ukrainian lives. In the end, Biden will abandon them like he did Afghanis.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on April 25, 2022, 12:59:59 AM
United Nations adopted a Russia initiated resolution: "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of #racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related #intolerance"
130 votes for
2 against

The two nations that were against the resolution to combat Nazism were USA and Ukraine. Seems like the US and Ukraine needed the Azov Battalion and didn't want them to go away. The UN voted on the Resolution Dec 16th, 2021 months before the war.

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1502693816796684293/photo/1

For years Russia told America in private they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. For years Russia told America publicly they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. Russia even took their case to the UN. America didn't listen. Obama and Hillary's Resetting of Relations with Russia to be their friend was a trick played on Russia so they can get involved in Ukraine. Now Ukrainians are paying a price. Obama's puppet Biden and a corrupt Congress will supply Ukraine with an endless supply of money to get more Ukrainians in the fight to punish Russia for stopping their Deep State projects. Waste of our money and waste of Ukrainian lives. In the end, Biden will abandon them like he did Afghanis.

The US voted against it because of their First Amendment, freedom of speech.

Billy if Putin is against Nazis why are there so many in power in Russia? For instance the Chechen leader Ramzan Akhmadovich Kadyrov would make the American KKK seem like alt left SJWs.

There seems to be no end to Nazis in Russia. Why, if Putin wants the world to rid itself of Nazis?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/russia-is-co-opting-angry-young-men/568741/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Gipsy on April 25, 2022, 02:52:38 AM
United Nations adopted a Russia initiated resolution: "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of #racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related #intolerance"
130 votes for
2 against

The two nations that were against the resolution to combat Nazism were USA and Ukraine. Seems like the US and Ukraine needed the Azov Battalion and didn't want them to go away. The UN voted on the Resolution Dec 16th, 2021 months before the war.

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1502693816796684293/photo/1

For years Russia told America in private they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. For years Russia told America publicly they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. Russia even took their case to the UN. America didn't listen. Obama and Hillary's Resetting of Relations with Russia to be their friend was a trick played on Russia so they can get involved in Ukraine. Now Ukrainians are paying a price. Obama's puppet Biden and a corrupt Congress will supply Ukraine with an endless supply of money to get more Ukrainians in the fight to punish Russia for stopping their Deep State projects. Waste of our money and waste of Ukrainian lives. In the end, Biden will abandon them like he did Afghanis.

1, The US voted against it because of their First Amendment, freedom of speech.

Billy if Putin is against Nazis why are there so many in power in Russia? For instance the Chechen leader Ramzan Akhmadovich Kadyrov would make the American KKK seem like alt left SJWs.

There seems to be no end to Nazis in Russia. Why, if Putin wants the world to rid itself of Nazis?

2, https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/russia-is-co-opting-angry-young-men/568741/

1, freedom of speech in the US,  :ROFL: Tell Assange that...

2, written by: M Carpenter, Senior director at the Biden center for diplomacy and Global Engagement, published by the Atlantic Council... ffs.

Is that the best that you can offer??...
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 25, 2022, 03:22:35 AM
United Nations adopted a Russia initiated resolution: "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of #racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related #intolerance"
130 votes for
2 against

The two nations that were against the resolution to combat Nazism were USA and Ukraine. Seems like the US and Ukraine needed the Azov Battalion and didn't want them to go away. The UN voted on the Resolution Dec 16th, 2021 months before the war.

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1502693816796684293/photo/1


Thank you. I did not k now this.  :8)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 25, 2022, 06:33:43 AM
Because Naziism is being used as a fake reason to invade Ukraine

UNITED NATIONS -- The United States says it was one of three countries to vote against a U.N. resolution condemning the glorification of Nazism over freedom of speech issues and concerns that Russia was using it to carry out political attacks against its neighbors.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on April 25, 2022, 07:04:40 AM
United Nations adopted a Russia initiated resolution: "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of #racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related #intolerance"
130 votes for
2 against

The two nations that were against the resolution to combat Nazism were USA and Ukraine. Seems like the US and Ukraine needed the Azov Battalion and didn't want them to go away. The UN voted on the Resolution Dec 16th, 2021 months before the war.

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1502693816796684293/photo/1

For years Russia told America in private they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. For years Russia told America publicly they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. Russia even took their case to the UN. America didn't listen. Obama and Hillary's Resetting of Relations with Russia to be their friend was a trick played on Russia so they can get involved in Ukraine. Now Ukrainians are paying a price. Obama's puppet Biden and a corrupt Congress will supply Ukraine with an endless supply of money to get more Ukrainians in the fight to punish Russia for stopping their Deep State projects. Waste of our money and waste of Ukrainian lives. In the end, Biden will abandon them like he did Afghanis.

The US voted against it because of their First Amendment, freedom of speech.

Billy if Putin is against Nazis why are there so many in power in Russia? For instance the Chechen leader Ramzan Akhmadovich Kadyrov would make the American KKK seem like alt left SJWs.

There seems to be no end to Nazis in Russia. Why, if Putin wants the world to rid itself of Nazis?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/russia-is-co-opting-angry-young-men/568741/

The Atlantic is propaganda news rag. I don't read them anymore. They once wrote when Trump visited a WW2 cemetery in France, he called the buried soldiers losers and suckers. As usual, all their sources are 'anonymous'.

Our Western propaganda news have blamed everything on Russia, even when it's not their fault. They want us to hate Russia. Now I understand they worked us up for years for this moment. There are lots of American citizens angry enough at Russia they'd be willing to send in American troops into the war escalating it into a global conflict. Their hate is based on lies. Some truth but mostly lies.

Those of you wanting to escalate the war to punish Putin and Russia, who's kids do you want to send to Ukraine and then into Russia? Yours or someone elses?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 25, 2022, 07:17:23 AM
Ukraine made request to try to evacuate steel mill of civilians under UN supervision. It is being worked on.

https://nationworldnews.com/live-updates-un-urged-to-monitor-steel-mill-clearance/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 25, 2022, 07:44:27 AM
Because Naziism is being used as a fake reason to invade Ukraine
 
I don't buy the nazi reasoning either, but from Russia's view they had good reason to invade for other reasons.  Nazi talk is a bit of a cover in my opinion. 

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 25, 2022, 08:24:13 AM
Yea if the USA tried to impose those same conditions on Russia how do you think Russia would reply?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 25, 2022, 09:13:41 AM
Yea if the USA tried to impose those same conditions on Russia how do you think Russia would reply?
I think you meant to reply to other thread. 
That is an irrelevant question.   The reality is this was between Ukraine and Russia.  Different countries would reply different based on the entire set of circumstances. 

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 25, 2022, 09:21:06 AM
Quote from: billyb
Some truth but mostly lies.

You mean like the neo nazi excuse to invade Ukraine?

Azov is neo  nazi.
There are no excuses for it.

The Ukrainian gov used the groups  ultra nationalist stance and shear numbers of trained members .

But you'll conviently  ignore that the entire foundation of the donestsk seperatist militias was neo nazi leaders ,mostly from Russia and decorated by the Kremlin in 16  for thier performance in donbass ( dimitri utkin(wagner))
If you dont know the significance of the man's call sign (wagner pmc) and paramilitary group name, paid by russia, I can't help you further.
The  leaders like utkin,pavlov etc etc the entire seperatist head was and remains neo nazi. The Kremlin just posthumously decorated another fallen dpr leader, neo nazi.

Azov formed  in mariupol after 20 some Ukraine captured soldiers were executed amd mutilated by the seperatist militias  of wagner pmc and Sparta battalions ( or a portion of rucsich battalion)

The donestk neo nazi chicken did come before the mariupol neo nazi egg.
A loose bunch of  about 50 local mafia thugs paid by and loyal.to the  cousted  corrupt president and led by neo nazis from.russia and st pete that then actively recruited thru those russian paid paramilitary.groups .

Doesn't matter, boths groups  actions are reprehensible.
However dpr would not exist or ever founded without those neo nazi militias,its the very core.

Ukrainian nationalism and troops would certainly exist without azov. Big difference.

Who drew first blood? The murdered  local pro Ukrainian admin in sloyansk,and  the 2 tortured and murderd 20yo pro ukrainian  men were killed there as well.
With intent to incite and spark the donbas conflict in 14.
The men that founded dpr ,state so in their own accounts across numerous interviews.  They were there,we weren't.

I do agree it was in responce.to maiden,which had western meddling.all over it. (The two men tortured and  killed had went to.maiden and wanted to put up a ukranian flag,in ukraine,,how dare they!)


Quote
Those of you wanting to escalate the war to punish Putin and Russia, who's kids do you want to send to Ukraine and then into Russia? Yours or someone elses?

I don't want it to esculate.

The main escalation is and remains Russia , they are not within thier international borders. This extreme escalation  started when they crossed them
If they abided by those it's incredibly unlikely those would be crossed and everyone knows it.

I dont want to punish dear kleptocrat puti ,or russua,
as Ukraine was always an equal kelptocracy.
The two cultures were identical.  Corruption was and us deep in both.
Just like in the.west
 But Again how dare ukraine try and change in any direction. Even if it's towards a different corruption.

If the west hates russia so much,why is the world banks in London so involved in russian money for ir decades to be referred to as Londongrad?

Ukraine could just fold and do as they are told by Russia .

 And that botoxed old man in Russia could have accepted that russias  control and influence in  eastern Europe was diminishing,   and might continue to,
All while being  happy with the billion dollar a day gas sales.

   Here is the kremlins donbas  hero!
Oddly from.russia ,a former lieutenant Colonel with SS epillite tattoes on his collarbones and the nazi eagle

That's only the western lies right billy?

You can always go try and take his awards away, the wagner group is still being used by russia in  the ukraine conflict.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on April 25, 2022, 07:42:08 PM
United Nations adopted a Russia initiated resolution: "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of #racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related #intolerance"
130 votes for
2 against

The two nations that were against the resolution to combat Nazism were USA and Ukraine. Seems like the US and Ukraine needed the Azov Battalion and didn't want them to go away. The UN voted on the Resolution Dec 16th, 2021 months before the war.

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1502693816796684293/photo/1

For years Russia told America in private they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. For years Russia told America publicly they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. Russia even took their case to the UN. America didn't listen. Obama and Hillary's Resetting of Relations with Russia to be their friend was a trick played on Russia so they can get involved in Ukraine. Now Ukrainians are paying a price. Obama's puppet Biden and a corrupt Congress will supply Ukraine with an endless supply of money to get more Ukrainians in the fight to punish Russia for stopping their Deep State projects. Waste of our money and waste of Ukrainian lives. In the end, Biden will abandon them like he did Afghanis.

The US voted against it because of their First Amendment, freedom of speech.


Strange the US is all about free speech. I just watch our government take our voice away which is our Constitutional right to choose our leaders. I watch social media ban 5 million people for talking about the stolen election. Then I watch social media censor and ban those that said the virus was made in a lab and don't take the vaccines. Our government not only accepted it, they promoted it.


Because Naziism is being used as a fake reason to invade Ukraine
 
I don't buy the nazi reasoning either, but from Russia's view they had good reason to invade for other reasons.  Nazi talk is a bit of a cover in my opinion. 

Jonas! 

Everybody knows there's NAZIS in Ukraine. It's just one reason for the invasion, not the main reason. It doesn't matter if Russia has their own NAZIS. They don't want American backed NAZIS next door.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: jseddy on April 25, 2022, 09:19:13 PM
Huh, it's been a very long time since I've been here. Started dating an Estonian girl in 2014 that went great for a few years until it didn't. I was curious to see what was going on in the forums since the invasion happened and thought there would be a lot of practical perspective from you guys. Jesus Christ. This place is a dumpster fire. This forum has been the most devisive spot Ive seen on the internet yet. I suppose that's interesting in a way considering I'm an epidemiologist.

Also, I can put your biolab thread to rest. I worked for the CDC and know where those facilities are/were. We don't need biolabs in other countries. You just transport the materials. Honestly, that's not what you should be worrying about.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on April 25, 2022, 09:56:31 PM
We don't need biolabs in other countries. You just transport the materials.


You're right, we don't need biolabs in other countries yet they're there. The Ukraine biolabs were working on coronaviruses and plague bacteria. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on earth. 'They' wanted a place like that to handle newly discovered biological weapons. China also a place we sent money to to create the worst pathogens known to man.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on April 26, 2022, 05:13:24 AM
Huh, it's been a very long time since I've been here. Started dating an Estonian girl in 2014 that went great for a few years until it didn't. I was curious to see what was going on in the forums since the invasion happened and thought there would be a lot of practical perspective from you guys. Jesus Christ. This place is a dumpster fire. This forum has been the most devisive spot Ive seen on the internet yet.


Ditto  tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: jseddy on April 26, 2022, 12:35:28 PM
We don't need biolabs in other countries. You just transport the materials.


You're right, we don't need biolabs in other countries yet they're there. The Ukraine biolabs were working on coronaviruses and plague bacteria. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on earth. 'They' wanted a place like that to handle newly discovered biological weapons. China also a place we sent money to to create the worst pathogens known to man.

There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on April 26, 2022, 12:42:24 PM
Quote from: billyb
Some truth but mostly lies.

You mean like the neo nazi excuse to invade Ukraine?

Azov is neo  nazi.
There are no excuses for it.

The Ukrainian gov used the groups  ultra nationalist stance and shear numbers of trained members .

But you'll conviently  ignore that the entire foundation of the donestsk seperatist militias was neo nazi leaders ,mostly from Russia and decorated by the Kremlin in 16  for thier performance in donbass ( dimitri utkin(wagner))
If you dont know the significance of the man's call sign (wagner pmc) and paramilitary group name, paid by russia, I can't help you further.
The  leaders like utkin,pavlov etc etc the entire seperatist head was and remains neo nazi. The Kremlin just posthumously decorated another fallen dpr leader, neo nazi.

Azov formed  in mariupol after 20 some Ukraine captured soldiers were executed amd mutilated by the seperatist militias  of wagner pmc and Sparta battalions ( or a portion of rucsich battalion)

The donestk neo nazi chicken did come before the mariupol neo nazi egg.
A loose bunch of  about 50 local mafia thugs paid by and loyal.to the  cousted  corrupt president and led by neo nazis from.russia and st pete that then actively recruited thru those russian paid paramilitary.groups .

Doesn't matter, boths groups  actions are reprehensible.
However dpr would not exist or ever founded without those neo nazi militias,its the very core.

Ukrainian nationalism and troops would certainly exist without azov. Big difference.

Who drew first blood? The murdered  local pro Ukrainian admin in sloyansk,and  the 2 tortured and murderd 20yo pro ukrainian  men were killed there as well.
With intent to incite and spark the donbas conflict in 14.
The men that founded dpr ,state so in their own accounts across numerous interviews.  They were there,we weren't.

I do agree it was in responce.to maiden,which had western meddling.all over it. (The two men tortured and  killed had went to.maiden and wanted to put up a ukranian flag,in ukraine,,how dare they!)


Quote
Those of you wanting to escalate the war to punish Putin and Russia, who's kids do you want to send to Ukraine and then into Russia? Yours or someone elses?

I don't want it to esculate.

The main escalation is and remains Russia , they are not within thier international borders. This extreme escalation  started when they crossed them
If they abided by those it's incredibly unlikely those would be crossed and everyone knows it.

I dont want to punish dear kleptocrat puti ,or russua,
as Ukraine was always an equal kelptocracy.
The two cultures were identical.  Corruption was and us deep in both.
Just like in the.west
 But Again how dare ukraine try and change in any direction. Even if it's towards a different corruption.

If the west hates russia so much,why is the world banks in London so involved in russian money for ir decades to be referred to as Londongrad?

Ukraine could just fold and do as they are told by Russia .

 And that botoxed old man in Russia could have accepted that russias  control and influence in  eastern Europe was diminishing,   and might continue to,
All while being  happy with the billion dollar a day gas sales.

   Here is the kremlins donbas  hero!
Oddly from.russia ,a former lieutenant Colonel with SS epillite tattoes on his collarbones and the nazi eagle

That's only the western lies right billy?

You can always go try and take his awards away, the wagner group is still being used by russia in  the ukraine conflict.

Is that your photo at the bottom?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on April 26, 2022, 12:43:42 PM
We don't need biolabs in other countries. You just transport the materials.



You're right, we don't need biolabs in other countries yet they're there. The Ukraine biolabs were working on coronaviruses and plague bacteria. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on earth. 'They' wanted a place like that to handle newly discovered biological weapons. China also a place we sent money to to create the worst pathogens known to man.

There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.


and you know this how????? 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lon on April 26, 2022, 01:05:26 PM
There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.

and you know this how?????

he did give his bona fides earlier in this thread
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 26, 2022, 01:17:21 PM
United Nations adopted a Russia initiated resolution: "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of #racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related #intolerance"
130 votes for
2 against

The two nations that were against the resolution to combat Nazism were USA and Ukraine. Seems like the US and Ukraine needed the Azov Battalion and didn't want them to go away. The UN voted on the Resolution Dec 16th, 2021 months before the war.

https://twitter.com/adamscrabble/status/1502693816796684293/photo/1

For years Russia told America in private they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. For years Russia told America publicly they didn't like certain things going on in Ukraine. Russia even took their case to the UN. America didn't listen. Obama and Hillary's Resetting of Relations with Russia to be their friend was a trick played on Russia so they can get involved in Ukraine. Now Ukrainians are paying a price. Obama's puppet Biden and a corrupt Congress will supply Ukraine with an endless supply of money to get more Ukrainians in the fight to punish Russia for stopping their Deep State projects. Waste of our money and waste of Ukrainian lives. In the end, Biden will abandon them like he did Afghanis.

The US voted against it because of their First Amendment, freedom of speech.


Strange the US is all about free speech. I just watch our government take our voice away which is our Constitutional right to choose our leaders. I watch social media ban 5 million people for talking about the stolen election. Then I watch social media censor and ban those that said the virus was made in a lab and don't take the vaccines. Our government not only accepted it, they promoted it.


Because Naziism is being used as a fake reason to invade Ukraine
 
I don't buy the nazi reasoning either, but from Russia's view they had good reason to invade for other reasons.  Nazi talk is a bit of a cover in my opinion. 

Jonas! 

Everybody knows there's NAZIS in Ukraine. It's just one reason for the invasion, not the main reason. It doesn't matter if Russia has their own NAZIS. They don't want American backed NAZIS next door.

Well the bolded I can agree with. 

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: jseddy on April 26, 2022, 01:57:17 PM
We don't need biolabs in other countries. You just transport the materials.



You're right, we don't need biolabs in other countries yet they're there. The Ukraine biolabs were working on coronaviruses and plague bacteria. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on earth. 'They' wanted a place like that to handle newly discovered biological weapons. China also a place we sent money to to create the worst pathogens known to man.

There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.


and you know this how?????

Its public knowledge. They are not some secret military bases like it's shown in the movies. Labs are typically ran through grant money and that money has to be accounted for to the stakeholders.There are around 44 BSL-4 labs with another 23 ish coming on line in the near future. I've shared information with numerous of them when I was working on genotyping Sars-CoV-2. Russia only has 2. There is one in Belarus. There are only 3 in the world that are registered to have dual use modalities of reseach and development. Only 3 labs that can even work on modifying infectious organisms and none are in Ukraine. Ukraine doesn't have a single lab equiped to work with novel infective agents. It's not that surprising if you think about it. There aren't even BSL-4 labs in all of South America. They're expensive as hell and I imagine underwriting their insurance would be a nightmare. If one is worried about these labs, here is an interactive map showing exactly where they are so you can avoid those places. https://www.globalbiolabs.org/map
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 26, 2022, 02:06:12 PM
There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.

Any more.

I rather think if you're going to have a secret biolab, you are highly unlikely to include it on traceable funding and published lists. It'd be, y'know, secret.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on April 26, 2022, 02:26:55 PM
There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.

Any more.

I rather think if you're going to have a secret biolab, you are highly unlikely to include it on traceable funding and published lists. It'd be, y'know, secret.

jseddy Manny is one of RUA's experts on everything. He knows far more about biolabs then the people who taught you. He works in retail sales or did when I was last on here. Don't know how that connects to biolabs or secret biolabs but I'm sure he'll tell you.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 26, 2022, 02:33:49 PM
....
Also, I can put your biolab thread to rest. I worked for the CDC and know where those facilities are/were. We don't need biolabs in other countries. You just transport the materials. Honestly, that's not what you should be worrying about.

I've been saying that all along here  as i used  to work in various labs.

Thanks for clearing that up.
It's good to hear  from someone that was  more directly involved.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 26, 2022, 02:38:42 PM
Quote from: billyb
Some truth but mostly lies.

You mean like the neo nazi excuse to invade Ukraine?

Azov is neo  nazi.
There are no excuses for it.

The Ukrainian gov used the groups  ultra nationalist stance and shear numbers of trained members .

But you'll conviently  ignore that the entire foundation of the donestsk seperatist militias was neo nazi leaders ,mostly from Russia and decorated by the Kremlin in 16  for thier performance in donbass ( dimitri utkin(wagner))
If you dont know the significance of the man's call sign (wagner pmc) and paramilitary group name, paid by russia, I can't help you further.
The  leaders like utkin,pavlov etc etc the entire seperatist head was and remains neo nazi. The Kremlin just posthumously decorated another fallen dpr leader, neo nazi.

Azov formed  in mariupol after 20 some Ukraine captured soldiers were executed amd mutilated by the seperatist militias  of wagner pmc and Sparta battalions ( or a portion of rucsich battalion)

The donestk neo nazi chicken did come before the mariupol neo nazi egg.
A loose bunch of  about 50 local mafia thugs paid by and loyal.to the  cousted  corrupt president and led by neo nazis from.russia and st pete that then actively recruited thru those russian paid paramilitary.groups .

Doesn't matter, boths groups  actions are reprehensible.
However dpr would not exist or ever founded without those neo nazi militias,its the very core.

Ukrainian nationalism and troops would certainly exist without azov. Big difference.

Who drew first blood? The murdered  local pro Ukrainian admin in sloyansk,and  the 2 tortured and murderd 20yo pro ukrainian  men were killed there as well.
With intent to incite and spark the donbas conflict in 14.
The men that founded dpr ,state so in their own accounts across numerous interviews.  They were there,we weren't.

I do agree it was in responce.to maiden,which had western meddling.all over it. (The two men tortured and  killed had went to.maiden and wanted to put up a ukranian flag,in ukraine,,how dare they!)


Quote
Those of you wanting to escalate the war to punish Putin and Russia, who's kids do you want to send to Ukraine and then into Russia? Yours or someone elses?

I don't want it to esculate.

The main escalation is and remains Russia , they are not within thier international borders. This extreme escalation  started when they crossed them
If they abided by those it's incredibly unlikely those would be crossed and everyone knows it.

I dont want to punish dear kleptocrat puti ,or russua,
as Ukraine was always an equal kelptocracy.
The two cultures were identical.  Corruption was and us deep in both.
Just like in the.west
 But Again how dare ukraine try and change in any direction. Even if it's towards a different corruption.

If the west hates russia so much,why is the world banks in London so involved in russian money for ir decades to be referred to as Londongrad?

Ukraine could just fold and do as they are told by Russia .

 And that botoxed old man in Russia could have accepted that russias  control and influence in  eastern Europe was diminishing,   and might continue to,
All while being  happy with the billion dollar a day gas sales.

   Here is the kremlins donbas  hero!
Oddly from.russia ,a former lieutenant Colonel with SS epillite tattoes on his collarbones and the nazi eagle

That's only the western lies right billy?

You can always go try and take his awards away, the wagner group is still being used by russia in  the ukraine conflict.

Is that your photo at the bottom?

No,it's the Kremlin decorated.hero.
Former Russian Lieutenant Colonel Dimitry Utkin, leader of wagner pmc.
SS tatts.


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 26, 2022, 02:48:02 PM
There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.

Any more.

I rather think if you're going to have a secret biolab, you are highly unlikely to include it on traceable funding and published lists. It'd be, y'know, secret.

Manny,  why would russia keep them secret ?

Your tin foil hat isn't as  tightly on as billybs, but it's getting there.

There is zero reason the build a *secret biological weapon in a country near the alleged target.
There is absolutely no reason to do so in a country with continuing 8.year  conflict.  That would be insane.
There is less reason in a country with a shared language and  culture  as it increases security bring compromised.
There is yet a huge reason not to  if the country is indeed utterly corrupt anyone can be bought by the highest bidder.

A full month after.all.these claims and not one shred of  verifiable evidence.
Russia would trot that.out front page if they had it ,they dont because it was a ridiculous premise from.day one.
They dint blow them.up. that is  an equally silly premise.

They have not been successful in blowing up anything to the degree it would  take to.elimate a true biowarfare lab. 
They would be equally happy to show such if they did


Those  trained ukrainian golubchiks are spreading the virus!  (:)

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on April 26, 2022, 02:55:39 PM
....
Also, I can put your biolab thread to rest. I worked for the CDC and know where those facilities are/were. We don't need biolabs in other countries. You just transport the materials. Honestly, that's not what you should be worrying about.

I've been saying that all along here  as i used  to work in various labs.

Thanks for clearing that up.
It's good to hear  from someone that was  more directly involved.

Bah, Humbug!

What was Fauci's excuse then?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 26, 2022, 03:02:46 PM
China had labs.

We funded research.

Is that jumping to us funding bio warfare in a Chinese lab?

Would that make sense?

At least it would be far far more lack.of it's secret being compromised  than Ukraine .


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 26, 2022, 03:04:59 PM
Quote
It doesn't matter if Russia has their own NAZIS. They don't want American backed NAZIS next door.

They had thier own nazis inserted  into ukraine.
And still do.

Big huge difference.

When exactly  was azov going to storm moscow?


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on April 26, 2022, 03:05:15 PM
There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.

Any more.

I rather think if you're going to have a secret biolab, you are highly unlikely to include it on traceable funding and published lists. It'd be, y'know, secret.

jseddy Manny is one of RUA's experts on everything. He knows far more about biolabs then the people who taught you. He works in retail sales or did when I was last on here. Don't know how that connects to biolabs or secret biolabs but I'm sure he'll tell you.
While I more or less agree with the point of biolabs probably being a trumped up excuse, your point was completely unfair as it relates to what Manny said.   His point was completely reasonable in that if a biolab were a secret it wouldn't show up on any radar screens.  Nobody needs to be an expert to make that reasonable statement.   Remember yesterday when you mentioned sometimes even the CIA may make counterfeit dollars for secret missions.  Well this subject is in the same vein.   My own opinion is it isn't likely there was a high level biolab in Ukraine. 

Jonas!   
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: jseddy on April 26, 2022, 03:19:05 PM
There are no Biosafety level 4 (BSL-4) labs in  Ukraine.

Any more.

I rather think if you're going to have a secret biolab, you are highly unlikely to include it on traceable funding and published lists. It'd be, y'know, secret.

jseddy Manny is one of RUA's experts on everything. He knows far more about biolabs then the people who taught you. He works in retail sales or did when I was last on here. Don't know how that connects to biolabs or secret biolabs but I'm sure he'll tell you.
While I more or less agree with the point of biolabs probably being a trumped up excuse, your point was completely unfair as it relates to what Manny said.   His point was completely reasonable in that if a biolab were a secret it wouldn't show up on any radar screens.  Nobody needs to be an expert to make that reasonable statement.   Remember yesterday when you mentioned sometimes even the CIA may make counterfeit dollars for secret missions.  Well this subject is in the same vein.   My own opinion is it isn't likely there was a high level biolab in Ukraine. 

Jonas!

I suppose I agree with this statement. Maybe I'm naive and operate under more ethical standards. It's just hard for me to understand how a secret lab would get their samples. Those are in public labs and tracked. The thing is you don't need a secret lab, 20 years, and millions of dollars to produce a bioweapon. Just do nothing and wait for nature to do the work for you with an emerging disease. Go get a sample, grow it, weaponize it, and develop a mass distribution method. I can go get plague samples from prarrie dogs in the Dakotas right now. Or ebola any time. I guess there is some truth that governments can't be fully trusted in this regard. The CDC continued the outrageous Tuskeegee syphilis experiments for a decade even after they were exposed.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: jseddy on April 26, 2022, 03:27:26 PM
China had labs.

We funded research.

Is that jumping to us funding bio warfare in a Chinese lab?

Would that make sense?

At least it would be far far more lack.of it's secret being compromised  than Ukraine .

AJ, I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I'm on the fence about my opinion. Suppose you lab's purpose is biodefense. How do you go about doing that research without anticipating a type of bioweapon and tying to recreate it? I don't know. That stuff was above my pay grade.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on April 26, 2022, 05:04:32 PM
I suppose I agree with this statement. Maybe I'm naive and operate under more ethical standards. It's just hard for me to understand how a secret lab would get their samples. Those are in public labs and tracked. The thing is you don't need a secret lab, 20 years, and millions of dollars to produce a bioweapon. Just do nothing and wait for nature to do the work for you with an emerging disease. Go get a sample, grow it, weaponize it, and develop a mass distribution method. I can go get plague samples from prarrie dogs in the Dakotas right now. Or ebola any time. I guess there is some truth that governments can't be fully trusted in this regard. The CDC continued the outrageous Tuskeegee syphilis experiments for a decade even after they were exposed.

Maybe you're a cautious optimist, and loyal to the benevolence of our politicians. Of course some may actually call you foolish, too. That's OK. We've all been duped at least once in our lives.

One of periods that jumped right at me when I try to explain to my wife how come folks in Frisco is a bit different than folks in LA, is I tell her this story about the US military in the '50s releasing microbes in the Bay Rea fog for weeks to over almost a million San Franciscans. That's just to 'see' how releasing bioweaponry will affect a population.

So if you ever wonder why the current generation of San Franciscans are what they are today, there you have it.  :nod:

Actually a true story. IINM, one actually was hospitalized and eventually died, much to the horror of those who attempted to treat the person.

Edit to add citation: https://www.businessinsider.com/military-government-secret-experiments-biological-chemical-weapons-2016-9#from-minneapolis-to-st-louis-1
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on April 26, 2022, 05:57:19 PM
China had labs.

We funded research.

Is that jumping to us funding bio warfare in a Chinese lab?

Would that make sense?

At least it would be far far more lack.of it's secret being compromised  than Ukraine .

AJ, I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I'm on the fence about my opinion. Suppose you lab's purpose is biodefense. How do you go about doing that research without anticipating a type of bioweapon and tying to recreate it? I don't know. That stuff was above my pay grade.

Both Russia and the US hold samples of the smallpox virus. Both countries say they keep the samples for research and in case there's ever an outbreak of smallpox and there's a need to create a vaccine for what might be a new variant.

Of course there's always the possibility that other nations also have the smallpox virus and are just waiting to use it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_virus_retention_debate#2021_Pennsylvania_discovery
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 26, 2022, 06:17:16 PM
China had labs.

We funded research.

Is that jumping to us funding bio warfare in a Chinese lab?

Would that make sense?

At least it would be far far more lack.of it's secret being compromised  than Ukraine .

AJ, I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I'm on the fence about my opinion. Suppose you lab's purpose is biodefense. How do you go about doing that research without anticipating a type of bioweapon and tying to recreate it? I don't know. That stuff was above my pay grade.

 I grant anything* could be true.

When these accusations broke various *secret labs locations where revealed *.

But the irony is none of those brought up as evidence where ever secret. The contractors ugrading them announced getting awarded the contract on their very public website at the time. I posted it here or on a similar board.


So could there be in Ukraine? Sure
There also could* be those rumored trained golubchik (pigeons) to deliver the  (slav) only virus . Lol

My take on the labs was formed from.the evidence provided initially being bogas.
The fact many of the claimed  labs were also mostly agriculture based which made sense in a high ag country ,
The shock and awe the press gets for mentioning something that common and found every  most where.
They never distinguished security levels just , omg!!! biolabs found!! Like any tabloid is proud to.
That
Coupled with zero real evidence of anything  with  security levels a biowarfare would have.
And if found * would absolutely be presented! But nothing was.

It just never rang true from.day one,by day 3 orv4 the bulk of it was debunked ,but if you throw stuff at the wall.long enough something sticks. .

Amusingly I predicted back  then that.soon they would claim dirty nuke labs were found using power plant fuel
(ridiculous )
And right on que a few days later that claim.was made with zero evidence.

Then the chemical warfare claims came etc etc ad nauseum.

Nazis!!! Biolabs!  Dirty Nukes!  Chemical weapons. .
The best hot topics to.elicit responce and press  headlines to aid in deflection from.that one  very uncomfortable word dominating the headlines then ;
INVASION !!!!
 And that tag   word - Russia

A word and accusation that had actual evidence readily apparent to anyone.

So anything to change that to

*X found in UKRIANE *!!!!!
* Y found UKRAINE*
The propaganda making on Russia is not subtle ,and doesn't need to be.

Watch their 60 minute show for a full episode. 🤷‍♂️


To be fair
the.western.propanganda was in full swing also, leaving no dead pregnant woman.or injured  baby unturned. 
Regardless if they verified anything at all about the.story.

 You see russia 1 last night?

Reporting the usa will use nuclear weapons on Russia.

 Not might, not its a possibility,not the usa threatens to (they.havnt)
but  instead the proclamation that  they will
 So..
They must act now !

On state funded and controlled  TV.

Our own MSM is just as bad,but to.their credit Russia regularly during this has alluded to the ultimate escalation.


Its like the press in both sides is looking way past public support and right to igniting a world war.

So the real question is why?
Is it for ratings?
Does ad copy go up that much with sensationalized over the top war news?


It's just sad.
Pathetic really

And civilians always pay for it dearly.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on April 26, 2022, 06:34:38 PM
General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says if Russia gets away with war on Ukraine 'cost-free,' then 'so goes' international order.

My question is what cost can be applied to Russia to compensate Ukraine and the countries that have aided Ukraine? Yes there are probably more sanctions that could be put on Russia but how much help would those sanctions be? Would they prevent Putin from invading Ukraine again? Putin's never going to be tried for crimes against humanity nor are any of his advisors and generals. Neither the US or NATO are going to invade Russia unless Russia invades a NATO country or launches nukes.

So what cost can the world place on Russia that will make sure it doesn't invade Ukraine again or invade other countries?


https://ca.yahoo.com/news/gen-mark-milley-russia-gets-181113236.html
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - quick over view by an expert
Post by: Lon on April 26, 2022, 09:39:28 PM
sky news utube
Defense Analyst Professor Michael Clarke discussing the changing tactics

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrew99 on April 27, 2022, 04:00:03 AM
China had labs.

We funded research.

Is that jumping to us funding bio warfare in a Chinese lab?

Would that make sense?

At least it would be far far more lack.of it's secret being compromised  than Ukraine .

AJ, I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I'm on the fence about my opinion. Suppose you lab's purpose is biodefense. How do you go about doing that research without anticipating a type of bioweapon and tying to recreate it? I don't know. That stuff was above my pay grade.

 I grant anything* could be true.

When these accusations broke various *secret labs locations where revealed *.

But the irony is none of those brought up as evidence where ever secret. The contractors ugrading them announced getting awarded the contract on their very public website at the time. I posted it here or on a similar board.


So could there be in Ukraine? Sure
There also could* be those rumored trained golubchik (pigeons) to deliver the  (slav) only virus . Lol

My take on the labs was formed from.the evidence provided initially being bogas.
The fact many of the claimed  labs were also mostly agriculture based which made sense in a high ag country ,
The shock and awe the press gets for mentioning something that common and found every  most where.
They never distinguished security levels just , omg!!! biolabs found!! Like any tabloid is proud to.
That
Coupled with zero real evidence of anything  with  security levels a biowarfare would have.
And if found * would absolutely be presented! But nothing was.

It just never rang true from.day one,by day 3 orv4 the bulk of it was debunked ,but if you throw stuff at the wall.long enough something sticks. .

Amusingly I predicted back  then that.soon they would claim dirty nuke labs were found using power plant fuel
(ridiculous )
And right on que a few days later that claim.was made with zero evidence.

Then the chemical warfare claims came etc etc ad nauseum.

Nazis!!! Biolabs!  Dirty Nukes!  Chemical weapons. .
The best hot topics to.elicit responce and press  headlines to aid in deflection from.that one  very uncomfortable word dominating the headlines then ;
INVASION !!!!
 And that tag   word - Russia

A word and accusation that had actual evidence readily apparent to anyone.

So anything to change that to

*X found in UKRIANE *!!!!!
* Y found UKRAINE*
The propaganda making on Russia is not subtle ,and doesn't need to be.

Watch their 60 minute show for a full episode. 🤷‍♂️


To be fair
the.western.propanganda was in full swing also, leaving no dead pregnant woman.or injured  baby unturned. 
Regardless if they verified anything at all about the.story.

 You see russia 1 last night?

Reporting the usa will use nuclear weapons on Russia.

 Not might, not its a possibility,not the usa threatens to (they.havnt)
but  instead the proclamation that  they will
 So..
They must act now !

On state funded and controlled  TV.

Our own MSM is just as bad,but to.their credit Russia regularly during this has alluded to the ultimate escalation.


Its like the press in both sides is looking way past public support and right to igniting a world war.

So the real question is why?
Is it for ratings?
Does ad copy go up that much with sensationalized over the top war news?


It's just sad.
Pathetic really

And civilians always pay for it dearly.

Russia invaded Ukraine not the other way around. Russia could leave but it doesnt want to.  Ukraine is a country not as big as Russia. Both might have chemical labs but nobody knows and no one is saying they have been deployed.
If you keep it simple then we dont get the mix of they are as  bad as each other logic
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on April 27, 2022, 11:55:42 AM
So what cost can the world place on Russia that will make sure it doesn't invade Ukraine again or invade other countries?

What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or invade other countries?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on April 27, 2022, 12:58:08 PM
So what cost can the world place on Russia that will make sure it doesn't invade Ukraine again or invade other countries?

What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or invade other countries?

We are self imploding from.within,no need to sweat that.

This is currently* about russian troops within ukraine,, not independent*  republics,not crimea.

If going thru whataboutisms ,
Ah the old British empire holds that claim to world domination fame by a landslide.
What costs did it take to break that cycle, what countries aided each other military and financially to do so and gain true* independence?

Doesn't matter , russia is the one taking direct troop action outside their borders.

Funny, dont see those Murmansk  north  based  marine special forces  headed  a few klicks  west ,since Finland is slated for nato members and the US signed security agreements until their ratification...

Nope,instead  they headed south hundreds of kilometers and took extremely high losses immediately at Kharkiv.

Warmer water is seemingly  really important.







Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on April 27, 2022, 06:49:54 PM

What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or invade other countries?

Just get the Brits to stop supporting us.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Tom Cat on May 14, 2022, 04:51:44 PM
A video of some of the Nazis still inside the Azovstal plant.
Other than the lack of tattoos and that killer swagger,  these are the individuals that Putin declared a threat to Russians.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTds4Ehmk/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 14, 2022, 05:45:12 PM
A video of some of the Nazis still inside the Azovstal plant.
Other than the lack of tattoos and that killer swagger,  these are the individuals that Putin declared a threat to Russians.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTds4Ehmk/

Why don't you go to keep them company?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 14, 2022, 06:16:48 PM

What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or invade other countries?

Just get the Brits to stop supporting us.

Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO. Russia controls Belarus. Russia has invaded Ukraine and killed thousands while demanding Ukraine submit to Russia's will. Russia will probably invade Moldova if Russia succeeds in Ukraine.

Next targets for Russia? What about Georgia?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Tom Cat on May 14, 2022, 06:48:31 PM
A video of some of the Nazis still inside the Azovstal plant.
Other than the lack of tattoos and that killer swagger,  these are the individuals that Putin declared a threat to Russians.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTds4Ehmk/

Why don't you go to keep them company?

What a splendid idea! You should come along and educate them about their evil ways.   tiphat
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. south Ossetia referendum
Post by: Lon on May 14, 2022, 08:40:11 PM

Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO. Russia controls Belarus. Russia has invaded Ukraine and killed thousands while demanding Ukraine submit to Russia's will. Russia will probably invade Moldova if Russia succeeds in Ukraine.

Next targets for Russia? What about Georgia?

seems south Ossetia will be holding a referendum, whether to join Russia or not
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 15, 2022, 07:39:48 AM

What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or invade other countries?

Just get the Brits to stop supporting us.

Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO. Russia controls Belarus. Russia has invaded Ukraine and killed thousands while demanding Ukraine submit to Russia's will. Russia will probably invade Moldova if Russia succeeds in Ukraine.

Next targets for Russia? What about Georgia?

Unless you like peaches and cotton I would say give Georgia to Russia, and for that matter California as well. After all Russia controlled most of California some 150 years ago. As far as I am concerned they can have N. Pelosi as a bonus.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: 2tallbill on May 15, 2022, 10:22:46 AM
What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not
invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or
invade other countries?

Irrelevant, this is about Russia invading and threatening to invade the
neighbors. This is not about the Brits subjugating the Indians or throwing
Gandhi in jail.

Stay on point.   

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 15, 2022, 03:37:52 PM

What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or invade other countries?

Just get the Brits to stop supporting us.

Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO. Russia controls Belarus. Russia has invaded Ukraine and killed thousands while demanding Ukraine submit to Russia's will. Russia will probably invade Moldova if Russia succeeds in Ukraine.

Next targets for Russia? What about Georgia?

Unless you like peaches and cotton I would say give Georgia to Russia, and for that matter California as well. After all Russia controlled most of California some 150 years ago. As far as I am concerned they can have N. Pelosi as a bonus.

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 15, 2022, 03:41:28 PM
So what cost can the world place on Russia that will make sure it doesn't invade Ukraine again or invade other countries?

What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or invade other countries?


One can pray and hope and dream for both outcomes!

The only US defense IMO is right here right now on American soil.

Unfortunately for the first time in 75 years Russia has completely destroyed the peace in Europe and it's up to the USA and a few other sane countries to do their best to come to the aid of Ukraine and help them rid themselves of the Russian terrorists.  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on May 15, 2022, 04:47:28 PM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.

Please show us these threats?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on May 15, 2022, 04:48:36 PM
the USA and a few other sane countries to do their best to come to the aid of Ukraine and help them rid themselves of the Russian terrorists.  :coffeeread:

Stop drinking. It does you no good.  :drunk:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on May 15, 2022, 05:03:22 PM
  and for that matter California as well. After all Russia controlled most of California some 150 years ago. As far as I am concerned they can have N. Pelosi as a bonus.[/size][/font]
There is a real tug of war of us silly Californian's.  Mexico, Russia.   I think we should secede....most of the rest of the US hates us anyway.   

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 15, 2022, 05:13:40 PM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.

Please show us these threats?

There are numerous articles about Putin threatening Finland and Sweden. Putin just doesn't say what he's going to do.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/video/russia-threatens-retaliation-finland-sweden-aim-join-nato-84705813
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/14/russia-threatens-new-nuclear-deployments-if-sweden-finland-join-nato.html

Dmitry Medvedev wrote in a Telegram post on Thursday that if the countries joined the Western military alliance, there would not be any "nuclear-free status of the Baltic". Of course it's very unlikely that the Baltic is nuclear free since many analysts say that Russia has nukes positioned in its enclave of Kaliningrad.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/14/russia-threatens-military-build-up-if-finland-or-sweden-join-nato
https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-moving-nuclear-capable-missiles-into-kaliningrad/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 15, 2022, 06:13:09 PM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.
Please show us these threats?

A month ago S. Lavrov, you know the guy who said Russia had no intention to invade Ukraine in early February, made very clear and blunt threats to Finland.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 15, 2022, 07:09:02 PM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.
Please show us these threats?

A month ago S. Lavrov, you know the guy who said Russia had no intention to invade Ukraine in early February, made very clear and blunt threats to Finland.


Let him.

The more baseless threats the inept Russians make the more territory they are going to lose when all is said and done. The moment Russia tries using Nukes or any other such highly dangerous weapons the moment they are going to find out how quickly the entire Russian power structure can disappear. Nobody is going to miss Vladdy no friends or his Fascist "friends" either.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 15, 2022, 07:13:15 PM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.

Please show us these threats?

There are numerous articles about Putin threatening Finland and Sweden. Putin just doesn't say what he's going to do.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/video/russia-threatens-retaliation-finland-sweden-aim-join-nato-84705813
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/14/russia-threatens-new-nuclear-deployments-if-sweden-finland-join-nato.html

Dmitry Medvedev wrote in a Telegram post on Thursday that if the countries joined the Western military alliance, there would not be any "nuclear-free status of the Baltic". Of course it's very unlikely that the Baltic is nuclear free since many analysts say that Russia has nukes positioned in its enclave of Kaliningrad.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/14/russia-threatens-military-build-up-if-finland-or-sweden-join-nato
https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-moving-nuclear-capable-missiles-into-kaliningrad/


Russia is quickly proving to be a paper tiger with an inept corrupt lunatic at the top.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 15, 2022, 07:56:55 PM
the USA and a few other sane countries to do their best to come to the aid of Ukraine and help them rid themselves of the Russian terrorists.  :coffeeread:

Stop drinking. It does you no good.  :drunk:


You're confusing me with yourself. I rarely touch any alcohol and when I do it's a small amount.

Unlike you when you admitted you got arrested and put in jail after a night out drinking with your mates.

So really what is your excuse for all the obviously over the top dishonest pro-Nazi Russian propaganda?

You do know that the Russian Nazi mercenaries known as Wagner committed horrible crimes in Bucha and were recorded and it was played in German parliament, don't you?

Time for somebody to face up to some cold hard truths.

This really goes to show how incompetent the Russian military is. In the international MSM the Wagner Group are always portrayed as highly professional and feared mercenaries. If they can't communicate with each other or their HQ without having their communications intercepted how professional are they?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 15, 2022, 11:25:17 PM
This really goes to show how incompetent the Russian military is. In the international MSM the Wagner Group are always portrayed as highly professional and feared mercenaries. If they can't communicate with each other or their HQ without having their communications intercepted how professional are they?
Or they're using the fine art of misdirection, publicly say A) whilst keeping their real objectives and communications well within opsec. And you would be the ass for believing that they don't in todays age.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 15, 2022, 11:51:58 PM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.

Please show us these threats?

There are numerous articles about Putin threatening Finland and Sweden. Putin just doesn't say what he's going to do.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/video/russia-threatens-retaliation-finland-sweden-aim-join-nato-84705813
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/14/russia-threatens-new-nuclear-deployments-if-sweden-finland-join-nato.html

Dmitry Medvedev wrote in a Telegram post on Thursday that if the countries joined the Western military alliance, there would not be any "nuclear-free status of the Baltic". Of course it's very unlikely that the Baltic is nuclear free since many analysts say that Russia has nukes positioned in its enclave of Kaliningrad.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/14/russia-threatens-military-build-up-if-finland-or-sweden-join-nato
https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-moving-nuclear-capable-missiles-into-kaliningrad/

I would think that you need to separate cause and effect better.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on May 15, 2022, 11:55:38 PM
Or they're using the fine art of misdirection, publicly say A) whilst keeping their real objectives and communications well within opsec. And you would be the ass for believing that they don't in todays age.

Russia is good at using the fine art of losing a lot of men and weapons. If Russia knew what they were doing, they would have won this war a long time ago and they would not need any fine art. Now Russia has lost so many men and weapons and when you add to what the west has sent Ukraine this is an evenly matched war. If Russia does not fine some kind of fine art or get really lucky they are going to lose this war. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-likely-lost-one-third-of-ground-force-in-ukraine-uk-defense/ar-AAXiIwy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b126f5dd2956458f8e00ad2fa08b4fbd
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 16, 2022, 12:06:42 AM
Or they're using the fine art of misdirection, publicly say A) whilst keeping their real objectives and communications well within opsec. And you would be the ass for believing that they don't in todays age.

Russia is good at using the fine art of losing a lot of men and weapons. If Russia knew what they were doing, they would have won this war a long time ago and they would not need any fine art. Now Russia has lost so many men and weapons and when you add to what the west has sent Ukraine this is an evenly matched war. If Russia does not fine some kind of fine art or get really lucky they are going to lose this war. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-likely-lost-one-third-of-ground-force-in-ukraine-uk-defense/ar-AAXiIwy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b126f5dd2956458f8e00ad2fa08b4fbd

do a little math, you won't even need to know it is false. You guys claimed an excess of 120.000 Russian troups near the border of Ukraine. 1/3 of that is 40.000 men.

That would mean that Russia is loosing more men / day than during the Stalin Meat-grinder in WW-II defending against the germans.

Oh that sounds believable.
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lon on May 16, 2022, 12:41:19 AM
do a little math, you won't even need to know it is false. You guys claimed an excess of 120.000 Russian troups near the border of Ukraine. 1/3 of that is 40.000 men.

That would mean that Russia is loosing more men / day than during the Stalin Meat-grinder in WW-II defending against the germans.

Oh that sounds believable.

except it does not take 40,000 Russian troopers dead to render 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective.
the sources I have been seeing are saying 20,000+ Russian soldiers KIA, WIA, MIA or POW as of now. with vehicles added in, that would be plenty enough casualties to make 1/3 of the original 120 BTGs combat ineffective.
and a 1/3 loss is the number that I have been seeing
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on May 16, 2022, 12:52:24 AM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.
Please show us these threats?

A month ago S. Lavrov, you know the guy who said Russia had no intention to invade Ukraine in early February, made very clear and blunt threats to Finland.

But they're so secret you cant link us to them, I understand.  :coffeeread:

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: patagonie on May 16, 2022, 12:56:51 AM
do a little math, you won't even need to know it is false. You guys claimed an excess of 120.000 Russian troups near the border of Ukraine. 1/3 of that is 40.000 men.

That would mean that Russia is loosing more men / day than during the Stalin Meat-grinder in WW-II defending against the germans.

Oh that sounds believable.

except it does not take 40,000 Russian troopers dead to render 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective.
the sources I have been seeing are saying 20,000+ Russian soldiers KIA, WIA, MIA or POW as of now. with vehicles added in, that would be plenty enough casualties to make 1/3 of the original 120 BTGs combat ineffective.
and a 1/3 loss is the number that I have been seeing
You can multiply by 3
From the beginning where between 180000/200000 soldiers were waiting for the invasion.
60000 are KIA, WIA, MIA, or POW.
from their 1800/2000 main battle tanks they have lost more than 50 %.(you have probably at least 2500 tankers dead not counting the other crews on all the other vehicles).

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2022, 01:06:23 AM
This really goes to show how incompetent the Russian military is. In the international MSM the Wagner Group are always portrayed as highly professional and feared mercenaries. If they can't communicate with each other or their HQ without having their communications intercepted how professional are they?
Or they're using the fine art of misdirection, publicly say A) whilst keeping their real objectives and communications well within opsec. And you would be the ass for believing that they don't in todays age.

Basically what you're saying is the Wagner Group deliberately let these particular communications be intercepted for some unknown purpose? If so then why doesn't the Wagner Group teach the regular Russian Army how to keep their communications secret?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 16, 2022, 01:27:44 AM
do a little math, you won't even need to know it is false. You guys claimed an excess of 120.000 Russian troups near the border of Ukraine. 1/3 of that is 40.000 men.

That would mean that Russia is loosing more men / day than during the Stalin Meat-grinder in WW-II defending against the germans.

Oh that sounds believable.

except it does not take 40,000 Russian troopers dead to render 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective.
the sources I have been seeing are saying 20,000+ Russian soldiers KIA, WIA, MIA or POW as of now. with vehicles added in, that would be plenty enough casualties to make 1/3 of the original 120 BTGs combat ineffective.
and a 1/3 loss is the number that I have been seeing
But they aren't talking about that. 1/3 is the mantra, that means also 1/3 of the personell.

Plus, the 20.000+ dead they are claiming is already enough to swipe Stalin out  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Lon on May 16, 2022, 02:20:23 AM

except it does not take 40,000 Russian troopers dead to render 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective.
the sources I have been seeing are saying 20,000+ Russian soldiers KIA, WIA, MIA or POW as of now. with vehicles added in, that would be plenty enough casualties to make 1/3 of the original 120 BTGs combat ineffective.
and a 1/3 loss is the number that I have been seeing
But they aren't talking about that. 1/3 is the mantra, that means also 1/3 of the personell.

Plus, the 20.000+ dead they are claiming is already enough to swipe Stalin out  :ROFL:

I do not know about anyone else's mantra.  I said what I meant, 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective
also, I did not write 20,000+ dead.  quote properly
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification. threats
Post by: Lon on May 16, 2022, 02:34:42 AM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.
Please show us these threats?

A month ago S. Lavrov, you know the guy who said Russia had no intention to invade Ukraine in early February, made very clear and blunt threats to Finland.



But they're so secret you cant link us to them, I understand.  :coffeeread:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61420185

"Finland's accession to Nato will cause serious damage to bilateral Russian-Finnish relations and the maintaining of stability and security in the Northern European region," it said.
"Russia will be forced to take retaliatory steps, both of a military-technical and other nature, in order to neutralise the threats to its national security that arise from this."


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-warns-baltic-nuclear-deployment-if-nato-admits-sweden-finland-2022-04-14/

Dmitry Medvedev, deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council, said that should Sweden and Finland join NATO then Russia would have to strengthen its land, naval and air forces in the Baltic Sea.
"There can be no more talk of any nuclear–free status for the Baltic - the balance must be restored," said Medvedev
Medvedev said he hoped Finland and Sweden would see sense. If not, he said, they would have to live with nuclear weapons and hypersonic missiles close to home.

https://www.voanews.com/a/finland-and-sweden-aim-for-nato-membership-prompting-russia-s-fury-/6565066.html
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/russia-ukraine-war/is-russia-a-genuine-threat-to-sweden-and-finland/2577953
more of the same


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/14/finland-russia-nato-ukraine-retaliation/

Already, Moscow appears to be dialing down its threats of retaliation. In a telephone call Saturday, Putin told Finnish President Sauli Niinisto that Finland’s decision to join NATO is “wrong” and could have “a negative effect” on Russian-Finnish relations — but he didn’t make specific threats, according to a readout from the Kremlin.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on May 16, 2022, 03:30:25 AM
Worth noting that until Finland chose to break the treaty with Russia (and formerly the Soviet Union), the border between the two countries was essentially open. No military on either side. Yeah, they'd go wandering around doing exercises - Finnish conscripts looked forward to those exercises as a bit of excitement.

Now, it is pretty certain that both countries will set up a more formal and militarised border between the two. That will have been one of the consequences referred to. So, costs for both Russia and Finland will increase. Considering that Finland has been a de facto member of NATO in many respects for years, I doubt much else will change.

The much-trumpeted cessation of energy flows from Russia to Finland is NOT due to Finland's choice to abrogate its treaty agreements regarding neutrality with Russia but because the Finns stopped paying for their energy with an inevitable outcome.

Of course, Finnish security has not been increased by formally applying to join NATO. I see the timing as being a distraction, a way for NATO and, to some degree, the EU to trumpet some kind of success amid the horrors they are unleashing across the continent.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 16, 2022, 04:14:13 AM
I do not know about anyone else's mantra.  I said what I meant, 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective
also, I did not write 20,000+ dead.  quote properly
Oh splitting hairs are we?
At least be a man and own up to your words:

except it does not take 40,000 Russian troopers dead to render 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective.
the sources I have been seeing are saying 20,000+ Russian soldiers KIA, WIA, MIA or POW as of now. with vehicles added in, that would be plenty enough casualties to make 1/3 of the original 120 BTGs combat ineffective.
and a 1/3 loss is the number that I have been seeing

you are using the amount of soldiers in your BTG effectiveness report. Ergo, you must see them as true.


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 16, 2022, 08:17:19 AM
Russia's threatening Finland and Sweden if either join NATO.
Please show us these threats?

A month ago S. Lavrov, you know the guy who said Russia had no intention to invade Ukraine in early February, made very clear and blunt threats to Finland.

But they're so secret you cant link us to them, I understand.  :coffeeread:


Hey Manny, it has been a long time since you claimed that Russia could take Kyiv in 72 hours.

Any new bold predictions for us? 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on May 16, 2022, 08:44:24 AM
Contrarian, I think your memory is failing you. It happens, you're old, and you're on meds.

Many people suggested that the Russian army could be at Kiev within various periods of time. I recall seeing as little as 48 hours. Guess what happened?

If your memory is not failing you, then please be honest - try it.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 16, 2022, 09:07:27 AM
Many people suggested that the Russian army could be at Kiev within various periods of time. I recall seeing as little as 48 hours. Guess what happened?

Suffering serious losses, the Russians got their asses kicked.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2022, 09:24:59 AM
Now Putin says there is no threat to Russia if Sweden and Finland join NATO. The threat to Russia comes if NATO bolsters the military infrastructure of the two countries.

From the linked article:

"As to enlargement, Russia has no problem with these states - none. And so in this sense there is no immediate threat to Russia from an expansion (of NATO) to include these countries..."

"But the expansion of military infrastructure into this territory would certainly provoke our response.."


I guess Putin thinks he's giving Finland and Sweden his approval to join NATO as if both countries needed his approval before doing any thing.

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/russia-calls-finland-sweden-joining-070020609.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 16, 2022, 10:54:35 AM
Many people suggested that the Russian army could be at Kiev within various periods of time. I recall seeing as little as 48 hours. Guess what happened?

Suffering serious losses, the Russians got their asses kicked.

 :laugh: :laugh: tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 16, 2022, 10:55:36 AM
Now Putin says there is no threat to Russia if Sweden and Finland join NATO. The threat to Russia comes if NATO bolsters the military infrastructure of the two countries.

From the linked article:

"As to enlargement, Russia has no problem with these states - none. And so in this sense there is no immediate threat to Russia from an expansion (of NATO) to include these countries..."

"But the expansion of military infrastructure into this territory would certainly provoke our response.."


I guess Putin thinks he's giving Finland and Sweden his approval to join NATO as if both countries needed his approval before doing any thing.

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/russia-calls-finland-sweden-joining-070020609.html

Poor mad Vlad. Can't make up his mind.  :)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 16, 2022, 11:00:04 AM

Contrarian, I think your memory is failing you. It happens, you're old, and you're on meds.

I am not as old as you are, nor am I on meds, nor am I so desperate that I visit Sugar Daddy sites.  :-*

Try to stay on topic Andy instead of your usual waffling deflections. Let's see if you can manage to do so.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 16, 2022, 11:19:08 AM
Notice the modification? Propagandists often modify their posts in order to deal with reality.
And according to Manny and company Putin did not want to depose Z. and put in one of his own.
This has been proven to be false due to revelations from captured soldiers at Hostomol and elsewhere.

As I recall there were pro-Putin types who were giddy that Russia could take Kyiv in 72 hours. That certainly did not happen.....

Could being the word. Going in soft with minimum casualties takes longer. They could have just flattened it but chose not to.

Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification manning up
Post by: Lon on May 16, 2022, 11:31:38 AM
I do not know about anyone else's mantra.  I said what I meant, 1/3 of the BTGs combat ineffective
also, I did not write 20,000+ dead.  quote properly
Oh splitting hairs are we?
At least be a man and own up to your words:



quite the insult "be a man and own up".  what are we, back in junior high school again?
my original post was very clear about KIA, MIA, WIA and POW.  you even quoted what I wrote in your reply.  but yet you still press forward with your agenda/propaganda
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 16, 2022, 12:37:35 PM
What cost can the world place on the US to that will make sure it does not
invade any of the dozens of countries it has invaded previously again or
invade other countries?

Irrelevant, this is about Russia invading and threatening to invade the
neighbors. This is not about the Brits subjugating the Indians or throwing
Gandhi in jail.

Stay on point.

Russia does not have the need to Invade Finland when will join NATO. All Russia will do is Near the Finish frontiers.. in the place called Karelia will create a few  ready Rocket stations for not atomic rockets but for a very new hard rocket called something like Cupa..... which will be in Finland in few minutes and the same applies for Sweden too.

May I remind you that the Baltic Sea is very narrow and Russian boats and planes cannot be stoped using the vary narrow corridor from St Peters to the North Sea, acording to international rules. The same applies for Russia boats when they go freely via Vosporus straits and the Sea of Marmara.

My guess is that America has been working for very long time to convince Sweden and Finland to join......Nato.

Soon we will know what it will happen.

 tiphat

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: andrewfi on May 16, 2022, 01:05:05 PM
Finland, much more than Sweden, has made a target of itself. However, I doubt that there are any generals in Moscow shuffling through files of planning documents to pull out the 'Invade Finland plan.

As I wrote elsewhere, the Russians will not militarise a currently unmilitarised border - and so too will Finland.

Taking the requisite steps will cost Finland in both money and manpower terms. I guess it will be proportionality more costly for Finland than for Russia, who will be able to do as Wiz suggested.

However, in the event of a spreading conflict, then Finland will be pulled into events that they really, really, do not want to be and those missiles will be hitting Finnish assets and making peasants of people whose great grandparents were peasants. Back to the forests and deer for Pekka and Paivi!

Yeah, I know; the Finns have built impressive bomb shelters under Helsinki and other population centres and, they are truly impressive. Much of the construction is currently used for shops, car parking, sports centres and many other things. Apartment blocks have nuclear shelters in the basement where people store their bikes and dirty mattresses.
But they won't need those. There won't be nuclear radiation probably not even much bombing of cities.

Finland is going to become a significantly more risky place to live than it was last week. And it's the Finns who made it happen.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 16, 2022, 01:29:00 PM
Wiz, Is correct there is a convention regarding passage in the Baltic Sea. I want to call it the Helsinki agreement but I think it has a different name.

Finland is going to become a significantly more risky place to live than it was last week. And it's the Finns who made it happen.

If Russia did not invade Ukraine in February this discussion would not be happening.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on May 16, 2022, 01:45:04 PM
Finland, much more than Sweden, has made a target of itself. However, I doubt that there are any generals in Moscow shuffling through files of planning documents to pull out the 'Invade Finland plan.

As I wrote elsewhere, the Russians will not militarise a currently unmilitarised border - and so too will Finland.

Taking the requisite steps will cost Finland in both money and manpower terms. I guess it will be proportionality more costly for Finland than for Russia, who will be able to do as Wiz suggested.

However, in the event of a spreading conflict, then Finland will be pulled into events that they really, really, do not want to be and those missiles will be hitting Finnish assets and making peasants of people whose great grandparents were peasants. Back to the forests and deer for Pekka and Paivi!

Yeah, I know; the Finns have built impressive bomb shelters under Helsinki and other population centres and, they are truly impressive. Much of the construction is currently used for shops, car parking, sports centres and many other things. Apartment blocks have nuclear shelters in the basement where people store their bikes and dirty mattresses.
But they won't need those. There won't be nuclear radiation probably not even much bombing of cities.

Finland is going to become a significantly more risky place to live than it was last week. And it's the Finns who made it happen.

No body want to have a good relationship with an aggressive Nazi government like Russia. There is no way to tell who Russia will want to invade next. Finland and Sweden see like it is.  Wake up there is nothing normal about the Russian government and it's genocide in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on May 16, 2022, 01:52:39 PM
Finland, much more than Sweden, has made a target of itself. However, I doubt that there are any generals in Moscow shuffling through files of planning documents to pull out the 'Invade Finland plan.

As I wrote elsewhere, the Russians will not militarise a currently unmilitarised border - and so too will Finland.

Taking the requisite steps will cost Finland in both money and manpower terms. I guess it will be proportionality more costly for Finland than for Russia, who will be able to do as Wiz suggested.

However, in the event of a spreading conflict, then Finland will be pulled into events that they really, really, do not want to be and those missiles will be hitting Finnish assets and making peasants of people whose great grandparents were peasants. Back to the forests and deer for Pekka and Paivi!

Yeah, I know; the Finns have built impressive bomb shelters under Helsinki and other population centres and, they are truly impressive. Much of the construction is currently used for shops, car parking, sports centres and many other things. Apartment blocks have nuclear shelters in the basement where people store their bikes and dirty mattresses.
But they won't need those. There won't be nuclear radiation probably not even much bombing of cities.

Finland is going to become a significantly more risky place to live than it was last week. And it's the Finns who made it happen.

No body want to have a good relationship with an aggressive Nazi government like Russia. There is no way to tell who Russia will want to invade next. Finland and Sweden see like it is.  Wake up there is nothing normal about the Russian government and it's genocide in Ukraine.

Tex can you give me your views on the war in Yemen ? 500,000 dead so far women and children.. what do you think about this war that has been raging for about 6 years.. Your country supplies the arms to the Saudi regime along with the UK.. How do you feel about them killing not a few hundred .. not a few thousand.. but HUNDREDS of thousands of children every day all day every week on and on.. What have you to say about that war then>>

What is going on in Ukraine? Its kids play..like playground stuff compared to Yemen..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2022, 01:58:44 PM
Finland, much more than Sweden, has made a target of itself. However, I doubt that there are any generals in Moscow shuffling through files of planning documents to pull out the 'Invade Finland plan.

How has Finland made a target of itself? Finland has already fought 2 wars with Russia (when Russia was USSR) because Russia wanted to control Finland. So Finland knows better than most what Russia wants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Quote
As I wrote elsewhere, the Russians will not militarise a currently unmilitarised border - and so too will Finland.

How do you know that Russia will not militarize a currently unmilitarised border? Russia certainly militarised its border with Ukraine.

Quote
Taking the requisite steps will cost Finland in both money and manpower terms. I guess it will be proportionality more costly for Finland than for Russia, who will be able to do as Wiz suggested.

If Finland gets some high end military tech from NATO their military will probably be far better equipped than the Russians. Their soldiers will undoubtedly be better trained. Wiz said that Russia could place their rockets in Karelia which Russia stole from Finland in the first Finland Russia war.

Quote
However, in the event of a spreading conflict, then Finland will be pulled into events that they really, really, do not want to be and those missiles will be hitting Finnish assets and making peasants of people whose great grandparents were peasants. Back to the forests and deer for Pekka and Paivi!

Remember Andy that Finland and Sweden have already signed defense agreements with the UK. If Russia fires on Finland or Sweden, the UK will step in to aid both countries. If Russia fires on the UK then NATO steps in. Putin is already being severely embarrassed in Ukraine. Taking on 2 or 3 or more than a dozen other NATO  countries in beyond Russia's abilities.

St.Petersburg and a number of other Russian cities are well within range of any missiles fired from Finnish territories.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk-strikes-new-security-agreement-with-sweden-finland-2022-05-11/

Quote
Yeah, I know; the Finns have built impressive bomb shelters under Helsinki and other population centres and, they are truly impressive. Much of the construction is currently used for shops, car parking, sports centres and many other things. Apartment blocks have nuclear shelters in the basement where people store their bikes and dirty mattresses.
But they won't need those. There won't be nuclear radiation probably not even much bombing of cities.

Finland is going to become a significantly more risky place to live than it was last week. And it's the Finns who made it happen.


Again Andy how did the Finns make it happen? By doing something Putin told them not to? Are you saying that because Finland joined NATO Putin is going to bomb Finland and risk bombing from the UK and Finland and Sweden? I doubt Putin's dementia has progressed that far.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2022, 02:42:14 PM
Sweden on Monday decided to join neighboring Finland in seeking NATO membership, ending more than two centuries of military nonalignment in a historic shift prompted by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

If Putin hadn't invaded Ukraine, Sweden would still be neutral. Invading another sovereign nation is a very good way to get other nations' attention to your genocidal ways.

More bad news for the Russian economy. McDonald's said it has started selling its business in Russia, ending a relationship that has lasted more than three decades. It cited the humanitarian crisis caused by the war, noting that staying in Russia “is no longer tenable". I'm sure some Russian company will attempt to copy McDonald's burgerS and fries but will that Russian company be able to make the same high quality Big Macs and fries?

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-stockholm-sweden-finland-f7328801f699fbb2f28826c0f14d4ef6
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russian-war-effort-runs-diplomatic-040315097.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 16, 2022, 02:52:25 PM
Finland, much more than Sweden, has made a target of itself. However, I doubt that there are any generals in Moscow shuffling through files of planning documents to pull out the 'Invade Finland plan.

As I wrote elsewhere, the Russians will not militarise a currently unmilitarised border - and so too will Finland.

Taking the requisite steps will cost Finland in both money and manpower terms. I guess it will be proportionality more costly for Finland than for Russia, who will be able to do as Wiz suggested.

However, in the event of a spreading conflict, then Finland will be pulled into events that they really, really, do not want to be and those missiles will be hitting Finnish assets and making peasants of people whose great grandparents were peasants. Back to the forests and deer for Pekka and Paivi!

Yeah, I know; the Finns have built impressive bomb shelters under Helsinki and other population centres and, they are truly impressive. Much of the construction is currently used for shops, car parking, sports centres and many other things. Apartment blocks have nuclear shelters in the basement where people store their bikes and dirty mattresses.
But they won't need those. There won't be nuclear radiation probably not even much bombing of cities.

Finland is going to become a significantly more risky place to live than it was last week. And it's the Finns who made it happen.

No body want to have a good relationship with an aggressive Nazi government like Russia. There is no way to tell who Russia will want to invade next. Finland and Sweden see like it is.  Wake up there is nothing normal about the Russian government and it's genocide in Ukraine.

Tex can you give me your views on the war in Yemen ? 500,000 dead so far women and children.. what do you think about this war that has been raging for about 6 years.. Your country supplies the arms to the Saudi regime along with the UK.. How do you feel about them killing not a few hundred .. not a few thousand.. but HUNDREDS of thousands of children every day all day every week on and on.. What have you to say about that war then>>

What is going on in Ukraine? Its kids play..like playground stuff compared to Yemen..

While tragic half a million civilians/children is not remotely what humanitarian groups report.

Roughly 15,000 civilians (killed by both sides in the war) 
yes most of those are likely from Saudis led coalition.

Starvation may have killed 85,000 children/ 70k adults
And the  ongoing war certainly increased this number on both sides.
 Starvation  and diesease was an issue for tens of thousands prior to  the last 7 years of hostilities.


The average family is 4vchildren in one if the poorest countries on earth with 3 main combatants and a dozen other  militant factions.

If Russia and the USA were to be completely uninvolved what change in these figures do.you truly believe would occur?

Iran and Saudi would play nice?

Both have plenty of resources to stabilize and enrichen Yemen.

Just curious your thoughts....
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 16, 2022, 02:55:41 PM
Westcoast.
Quality burgers and fries from Mcdonalds?

The usa could only hope all.these fast food franchises would pull out of here..
😉
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 16, 2022, 02:59:37 PM
Westcoast.
Quality burgers and fries from Mcdonalds?

The usa could only hope all.these fast food franchises would pull out of here..
😉

 :ROFL:   tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2022, 03:35:17 PM
Westcoast.
Quality burgers and fries from Mcdonalds?

The usa could only hope all.these fast food franchises would pull out of here..
😉

When I travel I like to do the McDonald's taste test. I eat at a local McDonald's in foreign countries to see if foreign McDonald's taste like McDonald's at home. I also like to try local specialties that foreign McDonald's offer.

Can't speak for Russia however I've been to most of the major cities in Europe at least once. Cities like London, Paris, Rome, Zurich, Berlin and many others. In every city during mealtime McDonald's is busy.  How is it that in cities known for world class food, McDonald's in Paris and Rome are busy during mealtimes?

Even in Asia in cities like Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Beijing, Seoul and others, the same thing, McDonald's is busy. The customers are not fat Americans or Brits, the customers are locals. If McDonald's food is so universally bad why are locals around the world eating there and not at home or at local restaurants?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 16, 2022, 04:28:42 PM
This post belongs here where it was originally made.

the USA and a few other sane countries to do their best to come to the aid of Ukraine and help them rid themselves of the Russian terrorists.  :coffeeread:

Stop drinking. It does you no good.  :drunk:


You're confusing me with yourself. I rarely touch any alcohol and when I do it's a small amount.

Unlike you when you admitted you got arrested and put in jail after a night out drinking with your mates.

So really what is your excuse for all the obviously over the top dishonest pro-Nazi Russian propaganda?

You do know that the Russian Nazi mercenaries known as Wagner committed horrible crimes in Bucha and were recorded and it was played in German parliament, don't you?

Time for somebody to face up to some cold hard truths.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on May 16, 2022, 05:53:48 PM
How is it that in cities known for world class food, McDonald's in Paris and Rome are busy during mealtimes?

Because poor people like to eat cheap.

Really, if you think Mcdonald's is a loss for Russia.  :'(

I'd be surprised if they were able to get their money out since the US stole so many Russian assets. I suspect, like Renault in Russia, they'll be nationalised, not sold.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 16, 2022, 06:36:57 PM
Westcoast.
Quality burgers and fries from Mcdonalds?

The usa could only hope all.these fast food franchises would pull out of here..
😉

When I travel I like to do the McDonald's taste test. I eat at a local McDonald's in foreign countries to see if foreign McDonald's taste like McDonald's at home. I also like to try local specialties that foreign McDonald's offer.

Can't speak for Russia however I've been to most of the major cities in Europe at least once. Cities like London, Paris, Rome, Zurich, Berlin and many others. In every city during mealtime McDonald's is busy.  How is it that in cities known for world class food, McDonald's in Paris and Rome are busy during mealtimes?

Even in Asia in cities like Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Beijing, Seoul and others, the same thing, McDonald's is busy. The customers are not fat Americans or Brits, the customers are locals. If McDonald's food is so universally bad why are locals around the world eating there and not at home or at local restaurants?

Lol i was joking!!!
And certainly one of the busiest places in many fsu cities are the McDonalds

I have tried them out of morbid curiousity. ,however i avoid the place like the plague at home,as indeed any.local sit down restuarant  or home cooking is far more appealing to me,even little hole in the wall joints

In foreign places i particularly want to search put local cuisine..

If mcdonalds fell off the face of the earth i wouldnt miss it at all.
I eat there once to twice a year max.

I recognize thats a personal.thing and that they are.indeed highly successful.for a reason. People like it.

I've just  never understood why.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 16, 2022, 11:02:55 PM
Westcoast.
Quality burgers and fries from Mcdonalds?

The usa could only hope all.these fast food franchises would pull out of here..
😉

When I travel I like to do the McDonald's taste test. I eat at a local McDonald's in foreign countries to see if foreign McDonald's taste like McDonald's at home. I also like to try local specialties that foreign McDonald's offer.

Can't speak for Russia however I've been to most of the major cities in Europe at least once. Cities like London, Paris, Rome, Zurich, Berlin and many others. In every city during mealtime McDonald's is busy.  How is it that in cities known for world class food, McDonald's in Paris and Rome are busy during mealtimes?

Even in Asia in cities like Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Beijing, Seoul and others, the same thing, McDonald's is busy. The customers are not fat Americans or Brits, the customers are locals. If McDonald's food is so universally bad why are locals around the world eating there and not at home or at local restaurants?

Lol i was joking!!!
And certainly one of the busiest places in many fsu cities are the McDonalds

I have tried them out of morbid curiousity. ,however i avoid the place like the plague at home,as indeed any.local sit down restuarant  or home cooking is far more appealing to me,even little hole in the wall joints

In foreign places i particularly want to search put local cuisine..

If mcdonalds fell off the face of the earth i wouldnt miss it at all.
I eat there once to twice a year max.

I recognize thats a personal.thing and that they are.indeed highly successful.for a reason. People like it.

I've just  never understood why.

McDonalds is probably one of the number one contributors to heart disease and intestinal issues in the USA, as are the other fast food places.

If the government really cared about your health they would have shut McDonalds down years ago or forced radical changes to their menu's.

Heart disease is the number one killer in the USA. So obviously the gov't does not care about your health as McD's remained open during the "pandemic".
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 17, 2022, 12:45:51 AM
Wiz, Is correct there is a convention regarding passage in the Baltic Sea. I want to call it the Helsinki agreement but I think it has a different name.

Finland is going to become a significantly more risky place to live than it was last week. And it's the Finns who made it happen.

If Russia did not invade Ukraine in February this discussion would not be happening.

It is my understanding that when you sign an agreement for "something" you must keep up the agreement rules you have signed!

Unfortunately the "God Fathers" who run the world, as their own back garden, they have not shown, since 1945, an honest behaviour, or have behaved in a civilised manner..... for any country that is not under their own thumb! No need to write a list of their criminal behavour over the years.

Take a look at the yesterday news in Buffalo and also in Israel......and then you will know who is responsible for the many ugly and nasty behaviours around the Globe!

A clever dickhead on this board has posted a comment, in another thread, that Kazahstan does not support or take advice and suport from Russia. Obviously he doe not have a clue how diplomacy works.

All i know, so far, the Russians always respect their signature........unlike our hegemons from over the pond!

According to AvHdB  the Americans who live in a perpetual Dept..... want to restore the Extremely high National dept by using inflationary methods...... and they are printing more toilet paper, also creating huge financial problmes for friends and enemies........ Take a look to our current living standards! AvHdB that comedian was spot on on his comments!

AvHdB also forgot to mention that Baidanopoulos (listen the speech of the President yesterday at the elcome reception for the Greek PM.) and all American Presidents use NATO to make more money for themselves and also their very rich friends are making a lot of money for their pockets....... too! :biggrin:

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 17, 2022, 01:00:31 AM
high quality Big Macs and fries?


 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Manny on May 17, 2022, 06:44:45 AM
The nazis in the steel plant have surrendered, and are all out now.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 17, 2022, 06:51:17 AM
All i know, so far, the Russians always respect their signature........unlike our hegemons from over the pond!

According to AvHdB  the Americans who live in a perpetual Dept.....

I am suspect the peoples of Czechoslovakia and Hungary would feel different about the Kremlins meddling in there affairs last century. And than there is the Budapest Memorandum with V. Putin’s signature on it. That is little more than a footnote or toilet paper for the Kremlin.

Most American households have a more or less balanced budget. As for the National and State governments it is a completely different issue.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 17, 2022, 01:03:55 PM
The nazis in the steel plant have surrendered, and are all out now.

Oh yeah? Russia had withdrawn all their illegal fascist war criminals from Ukraine?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: cufflinks on May 17, 2022, 05:55:18 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/least-300-azov-fighters-surrender-russians-azovstal-plant-ending-lengthy-siege


###
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 18, 2022, 06:05:55 AM
My Clever russian wife.... has installed in her Mobile TELEGRAM USED mostly (as far as I know in Russia) and on daily basiwsens me video of teh events in Ukraine.

Yesterday she send me  video wshowing all teh sick AZOV fighters coming out.....and today she showed me a live transmission of the Azov fighters comming out and searched by teh Russian soldiers.

I can see these video on my large screen but don't know how to convert them for Youtube etec....Any clever clock to do something so our American friends can see live the nes and stop posting porky pies...LIES.

This may healp you:

[attachimg=1]

Very interesting    to watch....
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 18, 2022, 06:28:04 AM
Westcoast.
Quality burgers and fries from Mcdonalds?

The usa could only hope all.these fast food franchises would pull out of here..
😉

When I travel I like to do the McDonald's taste test. I eat at a local McDonald's in foreign countries to see if foreign McDonald's taste like McDonald's at home. I also like to try local specialties that foreign McDonald's offer.

Can't speak for Russia however I've been to most of the major cities in Europe at least once. Cities like London, Paris, Rome, Zurich, Berlin and many others. In every city during mealtime McDonald's is busy.  How is it that in cities known for world class food, McDonald's in Paris and Rome are busy during mealtimes?

Even in Asia in cities like Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Beijing, Seoul and others, the same thing, McDonald's is busy. The customers are not fat Americans or Brits, the customers are locals. If McDonald's food is so universally bad why are locals around the world eating there and not at home or at local restaurants?

Lol i was joking!!!
And certainly one of the busiest places in many fsu cities are the McDonalds

I have tried them out of morbid curiousity. ,however i avoid the place like the plague at home,as indeed any.local sit down restuarant  or home cooking is far more appealing to me,even little hole in the wall joints

In foreign places i particularly want to search put local cuisine..

If mcdonalds fell off the face of the earth i wouldnt miss it at all.
I eat there once to twice a year max.

I recognize thats a personal.thing and that they are.indeed highly successful.for a reason. People like it.

I've just  never understood why.

I have been to the McDonalds in Moscow, long ago. But I do recall while always busy the Golden Arches in Kyiv served a rather good cup of coffee.

So far this year I have avoided McDonald and all there ilk. I find the food on so many levels unacceptable. A far better meal can be had at most dinners. The owners tend to be Greek and they can cook.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on May 18, 2022, 07:42:00 AM

I have been to the McDonalds in Moscow, long ago. But I do recall while always busy the Golden Arches in Kyiv served a rather good cup of coffee.

So far this year I have avoided McDonald and all there ilk. I find the food on so many levels unacceptable. A far better meal can be had at most dinners. The owners tend to be Greek and they can cook.


Purely a coincidence, but my favorite Diner in the Chicago area is "The Commander" - Greek owned.  :king:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 18, 2022, 08:04:17 AM

I have been to the McDonalds in Moscow, long ago. But I do recall while always busy the Golden Arches in Kyiv served a rather good cup of coffee.

So far this year I have avoided McDonald and all there ilk. I find the food on so many levels unacceptable. A far better meal can be had at most dinners. The owners tend to be Greek and they can cook.


Purely a coincidence, but my favorite Diner in the Chicago area is "The Commander" - Greek owned.  :king:

I used to like the ‘service’ from Ed Debvic’s in Chicago. Food was not so bad either.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 18, 2022, 09:25:28 AM
My Clever russian wife.... has installed in her Mobile TELEGRAM USED mostly (as far as I know in Russia) and on daily basiwsens me video of teh events in Ukraine.

Yesterday she send me  video wshowing all teh sick AZOV fighters coming out.....and today she showed me a live transmission of the Azov fighters comming out and searched by teh Russian soldiers.

I can see these video on my large screen but don't know how to convert them for Youtube etec....Any clever clock to do something so our American friends can see live the nes and stop posting porky pies...LIES.

This may healp you:

(Attachment Link)

Very interesting    to watch....

Many of us watch telegram regularly,even back.in 14 when  wagner/seperartist posted their mutilations,executions of pro ukrainians on mariupol outskirts.
(Before azov formed in responce)

So telegram like any  such platform can be used for confirmation bias of a position one already holds.

Or one can look at a wide.range of vids from there from many sources.

Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on May 18, 2022, 09:39:18 AM

I have been to the McDonalds in Moscow, long ago. But I do recall while always busy the Golden Arches in Kyiv served a rather good cup of coffee.

So far this year I have avoided McDonald and all there ilk. I find the food on so many levels unacceptable. A far better meal can be had at most dinners. The owners tend to be Greek and they can cook.


Purely a coincidence, but my favorite Diner in the Chicago area is "The Commander" - Greek owned.  :king:

I used to like the ‘service’ from Ed Debvic’s in Chicago. Food was not so bad either.

I haven't eaten at McDs for at least 10 years.  It has to be the worst hamburger ever made.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 18, 2022, 10:00:16 AM

I have been to the McDonalds in Moscow, long ago. But I do recall while always busy the Golden Arches in Kyiv served a rather good cup of coffee.

So far this year I have avoided McDonald and all there ilk. I find the food on so many levels unacceptable. A far better meal can be had at most dinners. The owners tend to be Greek and they can cook.


Purely a coincidence, but my favorite Diner in the Chicago area is "The Commander" - Greek owned.  :king:

I used to like the ‘service’ from Ed Debvic’s in Chicago. Food was not so bad either.

We had dinner at Trulucks (gold coast area of chicago) saturday .
It was truly a great meal.(seafood)
I'd say one of the best i've ever had anywhere(regardless proximity to a local ocean dock ) really impressed.

Chicago has so many great places to eat ,both small old  mom and pop places to the high end michelin chef.establishments.
Two of my good friends are such( in Chicago)
Its a wonder i don't weight 486 pounds.
 :laugh:


Dobradavid  , the commander in northwest indiana  i'm very familiar with,
If thats the one you are refering to?

There are tons of greek owned places in the region ,almost all are quite good.
:)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Contrarian on May 18, 2022, 10:09:32 AM
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification
Post by: Lon on May 18, 2022, 11:44:35 AM
My Clever russian wife.... has installed in her Mobile TELEGRAM USED mostly (as far as I know in Russia) and on daily basiwsens me video of teh events in Ukraine.

Yesterday she send me  video wshowing all teh sick AZOV fighters coming out.....and today she showed me a live transmission of the Azov fighters comming out and searched by teh Russian soldiers.

I can see these video on my large screen but don't know how to convert them for Youtube etec....Any clever clock to do something so our American friends can see live the nes and stop posting porky pies...LIES.

This may healp you:

(Attachment Link)

Very interesting    to watch....

Many of us watch telegram regularly,even back.in 14 when  wagner/seperartist posted their mutilations,executions of pro ukrainians on mariupol outskirts.
(Before azov formed in responce)

So telegram like any  such platform can be used for confirmation bias of a position one already holds.

Or one can look at a wide.range of vids from there from many sources.

Thanks for sharing

yes, my mrs. has been on telegram daily and sharing also.  very bias
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 18, 2022, 11:57:24 AM
I am surprised to hear American's fancy eating more Greek food then their usual  McDonalds  :)   

So now I will make you an offer that you cannot refuse!

All of you, who know, how to cook, you can try the recepies, that I have published on my Greek Cookery site!  It is FREE and for a week you can practice cooking a different recipe and then you decide, what to do next!

(http://www.greekcooking.uk/banner.jpg) (http://www.greekcooking.uk/index.html)

First click the Image above to visit my web site! Right in the middle there is a link  RECIPE OF THE DAY. At that section you will find a new recipe every day for the next 7 days. After you try your cooking abilities, it is up to you!

Good luck and enjoy your Greek Cooking!


[attach=1]

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 18, 2022, 12:23:31 PM
I am surprised to hear American's fancy eating more Greek food then their usual  McDonalds  :)   

So now I will make you an offer that you cannot refuse!

All of you, who know, how to cook, you can try the recepies, that I have published on my Greek Cookery site!  It is FREE and for a week you can practice cooking a different recipe and then you decide, what to do next!

(http://www.greekcooking.uk/banner.jpg) (http://www.greekcooking.uk/index.html)

First click the Image above to visit my web site! Right in the middle there is a link  RECIPE OF THE DAY. At that section you will find a new recipe every day for the next 7 days. After you try your cooking abilities, it is up to you!

Good luck and enjoy your Greek Cooking!


(Attachment Link)
Thanks wiz!

greek restaurants in my region are extremely common and always busy.  They likely outnumber any other sit down type restaurant. The more small  quicky gyro/ souvlaki type places also likely out number McDonalds.  At least in my area.

Many many people here also utilize  a med. diet. It's really really common.

Also in Chicago proper ,
many Greek.restuarants ,
and in fact there is a famous Greek section of the city with annual festivals etc. And some rather well known Greek restaurants that have been established since early 1900s
(Maybe older)

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 18, 2022, 01:02:14 PM
I am surprised to hear American's fancy eating more Greek food then their usual  McDonalds  :)   

So now I will make you an offer that you cannot refuse!

All of you, who know, how to cook, you can try the recepies, that I have published on my Greek Cookery site!  It is FREE and for a week you can practice cooking a different recipe and then you decide, what to do next!

(http://www.greekcooking.uk/banner.jpg) (http://www.greekcooking.uk/index.html)

First click the Image above to visit my web site! Right in the middle there is a link  RECIPE OF THE DAY. At that section you will find a new recipe every day for the next 7 days. After you try your cooking abilities, it is up to you!

Good luck and enjoy your Greek Cooking!


(Attachment Link)

I will vouch as long as you have medium cooking skills it is well written and quite simple. If you need a thermometer to see if you have boiled the water do not attempt these recipes.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 18, 2022, 02:45:54 PM
I am surprised to hear American's fancy eating more Greek food then their usual  McDonalds  :)   

So now I will make you an offer that you cannot refuse!

All of you, who know, how to cook, you can try the recepies, that I have published on my Greek Cookery site!  It is FREE and for a week you can practice cooking a different recipe and then you decide, what to do next!

(http://www.greekcooking.uk/banner.jpg) (http://www.greekcooking.uk/index.html)

First click the Image above to visit my web site! Right in the middle there is a link  RECIPE OF THE DAY. At that section you will find a new recipe every day for the next 7 days. After you try your cooking abilities, it is up to you!

Good luck and enjoy your Greek Cooking!


(Attachment Link)

I will vouch as long as you have medium cooking skills it is well written and quite simple. If you need a thermometer to see if you have boiled the water do not attempt these recipes.

Obviously you are talking for dummies.......who don't know how ro boild an egg!  :laugh:

I am not any special cook artist but in 1994/5 my now passed away mother came to Uk and stayed all winter here. She was an excellent cook, no fancy stuff but tasty food and in my view that is all that matters. Over the winter of 1994/5 she educated me and my ex girlfriend, who was a good secretary and was writing short hand and then typed all on my PC and by the time the food was cooked , she had ready another recipe......

At Christmas as an advertising tool for my British Clients...... was very good.

At the end of November, I used to post our new brochure together with a coplementary, cookery book to my clients, wishing them "Merry Christmas and Happy NEW YEAR"......and you can understand by the end of next May we were nearly fully booked!

I must point out that life and travelling those years was not the same as today!   

We did not have Covid 19 or similar.. big bussines for the Pharma to make billions and our Governments getting very rich. Life was simplier.



Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 19, 2022, 07:47:28 PM
That were the Telegraf picture that my wife was showing me on the 17 May.

RUSSIAN tank escort surrendered Azovstal defenders

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: cufflinks on May 20, 2022, 10:04:58 AM
Whoa Did NOT See this one Coming...  Sounds a bit like a Wizzbanger conspiracy fantasy really...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putin-s-secret-grandchild-is-a-zelensky-says-report/ar-AAXwmBY?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5daa73dca37840bf8978dd7b8331e437
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: cufflinks on May 20, 2022, 10:07:27 AM
To all the Greek Communists THANKS for posting Crooked Greek Cooking RANSOMWARE links...

Online Threat Prevention

msedge.exe attempted to establish a connection relying on an untrusted certificate to www.greekcooking.uk. We blocked the connection to keep your data safe since untrusted certificates are issued by unrecognized Certificate Authorities
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 20, 2022, 02:44:42 PM
Whoa Did NOT See this one Coming...  Sounds a bit like a Wizzbanger conspiracy fantasy really...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putin-s-secret-grandchild-is-a-zelensky-says-report/ar-AAXwmBY?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5daa73dca37840bf8978dd7b8331e437

Just wonder what kind of software you are using  and who is your Internet provider.....as I know very well that my internet provider does not use any funny programs......... and I have been with the same company since 1995 and hardly had any problems or down time.

Looks that the Big brother (CIA) in your country is checking your movements.... and maybe they are affraid that you may selll secrets to the East Europeans..... like Russia, so they keep tracks on your communications.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You should know that here in the UK will also have some special departments keeping an eye to the internet active persons with a bad smell in their mouth!

On the other thread COME TO AMERICA, I have posted the latest Video from Tucker  Carlson at FOX TV who made a statement that your country is a Dictatorship now!

Poor cufflinks you obviously choosed the wrong country to live and work, if you are still working and you are not a pensioner fronm tha secret Navy Subs......

Look how important news your secret department is publishing daily against Putin!

Now we know that his daughter of 35 is living in Germany , has a secret son and the father is/was a Ballet dancer, called Igor Zelensky so your importanst secret service makes the assumption that President Putin has a Zelensky in his famly! Very secretive and important new propaganda...  well done boys.  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I knew from my visits that your country is full of  persons with low level Mentality and Intelligencent Preople.

Looks that Putin is directing his orchestra very well.......Is been reported that USA has a 10% inflation......and your Alzeimer very clever President and his  friends are making billions printing more toilet $ paper...and your Dollar is not the worlds ONLY reserve currency anymore.

Putin is laughing all the way to the bank......as DOLLAR is going down the duspin pan very fast. Now you will start asking permission otherwise the world will have no flower.....to make bread!

Additionally anybody who is not paying their bills in Rubles will be cut off.

Looking around the various news sites and papers  it is very noticable the huge propaganda operation your Nations has organised.......but looks Putin is till elusive for your dogs!
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 20, 2022, 02:48:12 PM
To all the Greek Communists THANKS for posting Crooked Greek Cooking RANSOMWARE links...

Online Threat Prevention

msedge.exe attempted to establish a connection relying on an untrusted certificate to www.greekcooking.uk. We blocked the connection to keep your data safe since untrusted certificates are issued by unrecognized Certificate Authorities


? its a self-signed but expired certificate, if you don't trust it you can also goto http://greekcooking.uk without encryption. I mean who benefits knowing you visit some greek cooking site.

I will trust a self-signed cert with a proper trust-relationship anyday over a comodo/verisign/whatever cert.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 20, 2022, 03:06:56 PM
To all the Greek Communists THANKS for posting Crooked Greek Cooking RANSOMWARE links...

Online Threat Prevention

msedge.exe attempted to establish a connection relying on an untrusted certificate to www.greekcooking.uk. We blocked the connection to keep your data safe since untrusted certificates are issued by unrecognized Certificate Authorities


My webside has been operating since 1996 and I have never had any roblems.....

Any more complaints please refer my site to our British Relevant Authorities.  :evilgrin0002:
It is you the only one, who make this kind of comments.


I see our expert on this board has given you the answer!

Markje,  thank you vey much for the explanations to this ignoramus BS.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 20, 2022, 03:47:28 PM
Cuffy, Wiz runs his site from Microsoft95! Compliments to him.   tiphat

He probably could get today a great job managing in my opinion this shit OS. The only experience I have, it was amazingly prone to crashing.

While not an expert I suspect Cuffy your settings are set to a very high standard, in other words what are you afraid of, grilled eggplant?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 21, 2022, 06:55:26 AM
Cuffy, Wiz runs his site from Microsoft95! Compliments to him.   tiphat

He probably could get today a great job managing in my opinion this shit OS. The only experience I have, it was amazingly prone to crashing.

While not an expert, I suspect Cuffy your settings are set to a very high standard, in other words what are you afraid of, grilled eggplant?

Mr "Einstein" for your information, Yes, I designed my site on an old Laptop which was running windows "95" and later I upgrated to windows XP, but as Mark told you who cares about an old certificate that is out of date? Only devious people like you!

For your information I have windows 11 Desk top and also a Dell laptop with windows 11 etc. BUT i prefer to use my old XP and post....as I have all my old files connected to my OLD desk top XP and i have a large 19" screen....!

Now go back to your Bottle and continue your shift!

[attachimg=1]
.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on May 21, 2022, 07:20:48 AM

Mr "Einstein" for your information, Yes, I designed my site on an old Laptop which was running windows "95" and later I upgrated to windows XP, but as Mark told you who cares about an old certificate that is out of date? Only devious people like you!

(Attachment Link)
.

Ok, a reality check. An expired certificate does not inspire trust and confidence in a web site. From a 20+ year CIS professor with tenure at a public college.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Markje on May 21, 2022, 07:45:07 AM

Mr "Einstein" for your information, Yes, I designed my site on an old Laptop which was running windows "95" and later I upgrated to windows XP, but as Mark told you who cares about an old certificate that is out of date? Only devious people like you!

(Attachment Link)
.

Ok, a reality check. An expired certificate does not inspire trust and confidence in a web site. From a 20+ year CIS professor with tenure at a public college.

Expired no, it should be replaced. Selfsigned is another matter though, if you trust the ppl generating a selfsigned i consider it more secure than 3d party certs
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 21, 2022, 07:53:51 AM

Mr "Einstein" for your information, Yes, I designed my site on an old Laptop which was running windows "95" and later I upgrated to windows XP, but as Mark told you who cares about an old certificate that is out of date? Only devious people like you!

(Attachment Link)
.

Ok, a reality check. An expired certificate does not inspire trust and confidence in a web site. From a 20+ year CIS professor with tenure at a public college.

Well I respect your experience but I have to trust my own Son with a PHD in computers......and the proof is, that I have never received a complaint.........and from 10, 000 print run.... I have only 18 books left.

Thanks for your advice.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 21, 2022, 04:10:24 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on May 21, 2022, 04:32:59 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 21, 2022, 04:41:03 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

I was retired a number of years ago. Now I've gone back to work however most of the work is WFH stuff so yes lots of computer work. Not single. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on May 21, 2022, 05:55:37 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

The word is retarded not retired
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 21, 2022, 05:57:42 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

The word is retarded not retired

Yankee are you saying I made up the news? I did post a link.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on May 21, 2022, 06:47:32 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

The word is retarded not retired

Yankee are you saying I made up the news? I did post a link.

No West coast, he is saying he cannot deal with the truth. He cannot deal with the truth that real Nazi are in the Russian government and Russia is no match for Nato.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on May 21, 2022, 07:33:23 PM

Ok, a reality check. An expired certificate does not inspire trust and confidence in a web site. From a 20+ year CIS professor with tenure at a public college.

Well I respect your experience but I have to trust my own Son with a PHD in computers......and the proof is, that I have never received a complaint.........and from 10, 000 print run.... I have only 18 books left.

Thanks for your advice.
[/quote]

Ok, this is known as "deflecting".  tiphat
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 21, 2022, 07:47:26 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

The word is retarded not retired

Yankee are you saying I made up the news? I did post a link.

No West coast, he is saying he cannot deal with the truth. He cannot deal with the truth that real Nazi are in the Russian government and Russia is no match for Nato.

Texan77 that's certainly true. All he has to do is read a wide variety of news. Even senior Russian military veterans are saying the Russian military is no match for NATO. It might be uncomfortable to say Russia is no match for NATO but it is the truth. Perhaps if Putin realizes this he will keep his troops in Russia?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on May 21, 2022, 11:02:25 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

I was retired a number of years ago. Now I've gone back to work however most of the work is WFH stuff so yes lots of computer work. Not single.

How do you manage then to actually do any work? Or you just work part time? I would presume you have 0 sex life at the same time ?

If you'r not single and your out for say a dinner at a restaurant do you have to keep popping out to the toilet to check the wi fi and see if you can find any more articles about Russia? I guess when your down under the sheets your also on the tablet looking for more articles on Russia.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 21, 2022, 11:38:07 PM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

I was retired a number of years ago. Now I've gone back to work however most of the work is WFH stuff so yes lots of computer work. Not single.

How do you manage then to actually do any work? Or you just work part time? I would presume you have 0 sex life at the same time ?

If you'r not single and your out for say a dinner at a restaurant do you have to keep popping out to the toilet to check the wi fi and see if you can find any more articles about Russia? I guess when your down under the sheets your also on the tablet looking for more articles on Russia.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I don't like to check in on emails or receive texts while out unless I know something important might arrive. RUA posts aren't important. Sometimes I even turn my phone off. My g/f OTOH checks the Internet and does her job on her phone all the time. She also WFH. Sometimes it gets so bad I have to order for her.

Me I just have days where I'm online for hours on end like today. I'll be online till about 2AM today. Last night was worse. I don't think I posted anything on RUA after 6PM. When I take a break from work I check in on RUA and some other websites I'm a member of. I do this because it gives me time to relax. When the weather's good and I need a break I like to go for a ran to beat the stress. As I said in another post my work is WFH stuff. I don't have to commute to an office that often so that gives me lots of free time.

Because my work has me online I often run across articles about Russia and Ukraine. Usually they're highlighted on Yahoo, BBC and other websites so don't have to hunt for them.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 22, 2022, 01:36:14 AM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

The word is retarded not retired

Yankee are you saying I made up the news? I did post a link.

No West coast, he is saying he cannot deal with the truth. He cannot deal with the truth that real Nazi are in the Russian government and Russia is no match for Nato.

Texan77 that's certainly true. All he has to do is read a wide variety of news. Even senior Russian military veterans are saying the Russian military is no match for NATO. It might be uncomfortable to say Russia is no match for NATO but it is the truth. Perhaps if Putin realizes this he will keep his troops in Russia?

Amazing the amound of crap that is posted around here from the very "Manly" ganksters and heroes (Gun Killers)  from USA !

1)   Has any of you thought or know to tell us what was the REAL Purpose for the Creation of NATO just after the WWII?

2)   What were the conditions in the Agreement signed by the German Army Leaders with the leaders of the Allies after the capitulation of the German Army?

3)     Has any of you read the book by Gerd-Helmut Komossa (Gerd-Helmut  Komossa. DIE DEUTSCHE KARTE.

Watch this video and then go search in the interenet.....rhis rirle!

BERLIN IS WASHINGTON'S VASSAL UNTIL 2099?


Then comeback to talk about your achievemnets in Germany and teh rest of the eorld..."Killers of the people around teh world"

All you know is how to kill millions of innocent people!




Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 22, 2022, 08:25:28 AM
Yes yes Wiz, the world had no wars or people being killed prior to the estblishment of America.

The Greeks and British killed noone, just traded olive branches,  and white doves.


It seems to bother you that America simply learned from the greatest  examples of the past.

 ;D



Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on May 22, 2022, 10:05:52 AM

Texan77 that's certainly true. All he has to do is read a wide variety of news. Even senior Russian military veterans are saying the Russian military is no match for NATO. It might be uncomfortable to say Russia is no match for NATO but it is the truth. Perhaps if Putin realizes this he will keep his troops in Russia?

Amazing the amound of crap that is posted around here from the very "Manly" ganksters and heroes (Gun Killers)  from USA !

1)   Has any of you thought or know to tell us what was the REAL Purpose for the Creation of NATO just after the WWII?

2)   What were the conditions in the Agreement signed by the German Army Leaders with the leaders of the Allies after the capitulation of the German Army?

3)     Has any of you read the book by Gerd-Helmut Komossa (Gerd-Helmut  Komossa. DIE DEUTSCHE KARTE.

Watch this video and then go search in the interenet.....rhis rirle!

BERLIN IS WASHINGTON'S VASSAL UNTIL 2099?


Then comeback to talk about your achievemnets in Germany and teh rest of the eorld..."Killers of the people around teh world"

All you know is how to kill millions of innocent people!
[/quote]

Have you considered therapy? Seriously.  :8)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 10:07:33 AM
The real and true reason for the Ukraine war is just a 'rehearsal' to 'test and go up against NATO weapons'. This is according to Alexei Fenenko, a research fellow at the Institute of International Security Studies.

If this is true then by now Putin must be shaking in his boots. He must have realized how backward and old his military weapons are compared to anything NATO has. Putin must also have realized how non existent his logistics and communications between the various military branches are compared to NATO. Probably the most important thing Putin has learned by now is that his conscription military is no match for the various militaries of NATO.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-guest-says-143756652.html

Are you retired? You must be single for sure ?

The word is retarded not retired

Yankee are you saying I made up the news? I did post a link.

No West coast, he is saying he cannot deal with the truth. He cannot deal with the truth that real Nazi are in the Russian government and Russia is no match for Nato.

Texan77 that's certainly true. All he has to do is read a wide variety of news. Even senior Russian military veterans are saying the Russian military is no match for NATO. It might be uncomfortable to say Russia is no match for NATO but it is the truth. Perhaps if Putin realizes this he will keep his troops in Russia?

Amazing the amound of crap that is posted around here from the very "Manly" ganksters and heroes (Gun Killers)  from USA !

1)   Has any of you thought or know to tell us what was the REAL Purpose for the Creation of NATO just after the WWII?

2)   What were the conditions in the Agreement signed by the German Army Leaders with the leaders of the Allies after the capitulation of the German Army?

3)     Has any of you read the book by Gerd-Helmut Komossa (Gerd-Helmut  Komossa. DIE DEUTSCHE KARTE.

Watch this video and then go search in the interenet.....rhis rirle!

BERLIN IS WASHINGTON'S VASSAL UNTIL 2099?


Then comeback to talk about your achievemnets in Germany and teh rest of the eorld..."Killers of the people around teh world"

All you know is how to kill millions of innocent people!

Wiz I want to present you this award for posting a lengthy comment and not blaming anything on the Jews. Congratulations you earned this award.


(https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/number-one-1-award-ribbon-1st-first-place-medal-golden-blue-picture-id999510954?k=20&m=999510954&s=170667a&w=0&h=nJ-Nk6Nwj28-IEqtnPTnp_KxfNhpoeDVUyKqHQYE5U8=)
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 22, 2022, 10:12:22 AM
Yes yes Wiz, the world had no wars or people being killed prior to the estblishment of America.

The Greeks and British killed noone, just traded olive branches,  and white doves.


It seems to bother you that America simply learned from the greatest  examples of the past.

AJ obviously you prefer to hide the USA intentions for the 21 Century, which plans I disclosed earlier at the article I posted and titled :  The Project for the New American Century (https://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,29990.msg535855.html#msg535855)

I will never dispute what took place many centuries ago with the Greeks creating so many colonies around Med, black sea and Asia minor%u2026. Including Palestine%u2026.. Neither the creation of the British Empire, its subsequent actions, all over the world. etc%u2026..

Today we have a new century and after the WWII till today is the actions of the USA we talk about it and criticise or agree, depends on which side of the fence we are lining up or sitting ourselves.

In my previous post I expressed my opinion about the low mentality and understanding of certain people%u2026%u2026 which I find very boring.

I posted the previous comments just in case any of the current posters wake up to reality and start posting serious comments%u2026. But for now you are the only one. The big guns are having a good day in their gardens.

IMHO, the idea that the conflict in Ukraine it's not just a regional skirmish between two quarrelsome neighbours nor it is a proxy-war between NATO and Russia. We must wait for the finalresults.... and I will never stop calling your nation Gangsters and killers of the other People on the world. >:(

War on Terror.... my bloody ass.

Ukraine it's part of a broader long term plan by the USA for crushing Russia and all its competitors, Like they did in 1991 with USSR, collapsing its economy, removing its leaders, seizing its natural resources, splintering its territory, and projecting US power across Central Asia to the Pacific Rim, with the final and main target of China, where you build almost all your industrial products.

Read again the article about the "The Project for the New American Century"%u2026. it's all there. I just disclosed some extra paragraphs on the scenario to help the brainless people%u2026to see what the future will be.

Ukraine is about hegemony, empire, and pure, greed of power. Most important, Ukraine is the first battle in a Third World War, a war that was concocted and launched by Washington to ensure another unchallenged century of American primacy.

Of course I am angry with your nation US, destroying our comfortable life and spoiling the last remaining years of our comfortable life as pensioners, while the Alzheimer President , his family and friends, satisfying their greediness%u2026. At the end of the day all they will enjoy and have is 1.80 x 50 cm hole in the ground.


dorbradavid:  Obviously your suggestion fits you board personality!

Take a better look to see who is running the show in all the USA Governments!after WWII.

Actually it was your tribe who supported finnancially Hilter to come to power and then push him to start WWII with you world boycoting against his country...and we now know the result.

 ;D
Title: Re: Nazis in Russia - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 22, 2022, 10:39:01 AM
Below is a link to far right Nazi’s of Russia. Interesting read, but not pretty.

https://books.google.com/books?id=SjZyDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT190#v=onepage&q&f=false
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2022, 10:46:53 AM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 10:58:55 AM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on May 22, 2022, 11:11:32 AM
Lots of that aid money is already being stolen.. weapons are already going on the black market ..

Its not like arming and helping a normal country.. they are sending money and weapons to the most corrupt country on the planet..


Every thing comes out in the wash at some point and so will it here..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on May 22, 2022, 11:13:11 AM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Westcoast have you actually been to Russia? How many times and how long for?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 11:17:41 AM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Westcoast have you actually been to Russia? How many times and how long for?

Never been to Russia. Please tell me about Russia from your viewpoint.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on May 22, 2022, 11:37:36 AM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Westcoast have you actually been to Russia? How many times and how long for?

Never been to Russia. Please tell me about Russia from your viewpoint.

I do not think giving you my view point will help.. In fact I do not think anything will help you.. Will just let you carry on your arm chair expertise about a country you have never visited or know anything about.. keep it up :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2022, 11:46:44 AM
If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Now you're making stuff up. For years, I've criticized Putin on forums. I think the Russian people will be more prosperous without him. But even he being a bad guy, he has the right to protect his interests in his neighborhood. If you enter into a bad guy's house, he has the right to shoot you. Him being a bad guy doesn't give you the right to violate his rights.

I've listened to Putin's concerns and he has valid concerns. The West promised Russia they won't move NATO east if Russia allows for German reunification. The West lied. Putin is concerned Nazis are allowed to be armed in Ukraine. That is true and that is alarming. Putin is concerned there are biolabs funded by Soros and the American government in Ukraine, Georgia, and Kazakhstan studying dangerous pathogens such as coronaviruses and the plague. After American lab funded research caused COVID due to intentional release, Putin has the right to be concerned and I seriously doubt Putin intends to kill and make lives miserable for more people around the world than our virus has done.

I'd like to believe our government is good but truth is it's criminal and if you continue to support criminal activities, that says something about you.

I joined the Army during the first Gulf War. My dad joined the Army during the Vietnam War. May grandfather joined the Navy during WWII and my great grandfather joined the Army during WWI. I have ancestors that joined the Army during the Civil War. I come from a family that seems to only join the military when it matters most because we love this county but that doesn't mean we have to love the people running this country. When I was younger, I bought into the idea we are going to bring Democracy to Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria. We've been lied to. You're being lied to about Ukraine if you think our current government actually cares about the people there. I care about the people of Ukraine more than you do and to save lives we should back off, tell Zelensky to give up so Russia stops the war. America misbehaved in Ukraine and Putin is not taking it anymore. If Putin surrounds America with biolabs, chemical weapons factories and nuke sites in Canada, Mexico, or Cuba, we are likely to go to war too and we will stay in any of those countries as long as we like, we will do want we want, and we would win regardless if propaganda media is saying Canada, Mexico or Cuba is kicking our butts.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 12:11:35 PM
If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Now you're making stuff up. For years, I've criticized Putin on forums. I think the Russian people will be more prosperous without him. But even he being a bad guy, he has the right to protect his interests in his neighborhood. If you enter into a bad guy's house, he has the right to shoot you. Him being a bad guy doesn't give you the right to violate his rights.

No one is invading Russia although if this war continues I can see the possibility of Ukraine doing it if they get the upper hand.

Quote
I've listened to Putin's concerns and he has valid concerns. The West promised Russia they won't move NATO east if Russia allows for German reunification. The West lied. Putin is concerned Nazis are allowed to be armed in Ukraine. That is true and that is alarming. Putin is concerned there are biolabs funded by Soros and the American government in Ukraine, Georgia, and Kazakhstan studying dangerous pathogens such as coronaviruses and the plague. After American lab funded research caused COVID due to intentional release, Putin has the right to be concerned and I seriously doubt Putin intends to kill and make lives miserable for more people around the world than our virus has done.

Yes there are Nazis and other far right types in Ukraine. There are also Nazis and far right types in Russia. Why isn't Putin going after those people in Russia? There are Nazis and far right types in Poland, does that mean that Putin is going to invade Poland or Germany because there are Nazis and far right types in Germany, also in the UK?

Billy if you're going to post about biolabs you've got to also include evidence from some reputable sources.

As for NATO moving east Russia has the heavily armed and probably nuke capable enclave of Kaliningrad in the middle of the EU and NATO. Why is it acceptable to have Kaliningrad with lots of weapons and probably nukes in the middle of the EU and NATO and not acceptable to have Ukraine as a member of the EU and NATO?

Quote
I'd like to believe our government is good but truth is it's criminal and if you continue to support criminal activities, that says something about you.
Billy you realize that the Russian government is a Mafia state? You're supporting a Mafia state what does that say about you?

Quote
I joined the Army during the first Gulf War. My dad joined the Army during the Vietnam War. May grandfather joined the Navy during WWII and my great grandfather joined the Army during WWI. I have ancestors that joined the Army during the Civil War. I come from a family that seems to only join the military when it matters most because we love this county but that doesn't mean we have to love the people running this country. When I was younger, I bought into the idea we are going to bring Democracy to Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria. We've been lied to. You're being lied to about Ukraine if you think our current government actually cares about the people there. I care about the people of Ukraine more than you do and to save lives we should back off, tell Zelensky to give up so Russia stops the war. America misbehaved in Ukraine and Putin is not taking it anymore. If Putin surrounds America with biolabs, chemical weapons factories and nuke sites in Canada, Mexico, or Cuba, we are likely to go to war too and we will stay in any of those countries as long as we like, we will do want we want, and we would win regardless if propaganda media is saying Canada, Mexico or Cuba is kicking our butts.

All governments lie that's a reality. My government in Canada lies on a regular basis. If we vote in a different party they'll lie to us.

Billy even you must realize if Ukraine gives up, Russia will take over Ukraine. Prior to the war Ukraine was known as the bread basket of Europe. There's lots of oil and gas in Ukraine. Having Ukraine would mean Russia could exercise control over its off shore rights in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov.  Then of course there's Moldova. If Putin takes over Ukraine, why wouldn't he take over Moldova?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 12:34:55 PM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Westcoast have you actually been to Russia? How many times and how long for?

Never been to Russia. Please tell me about Russia from your viewpoint.

I do not think giving you my view point will help.. In fact I do not think anything will help you.. Will just let you carry on your arm chair expertise about a country you have never visited or know anything about.. keep it up :thumbsup:

Steveboy why is it that all the western members of the former USSR and Warsaw Pact joined the EU and NATO when the USSR broke up? Do you really think you know more about Russia than these countries?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on May 22, 2022, 12:49:18 PM
Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Billy was extremely hardline against Russia in the past after 2014.  It seems his mindset has evolved since then. 

 
Overall, I think this would have turned out way better if the West had let Ukraine remain a bit of a puppet for Russia.   They will now wind up being dead or destroyed instead, and in the end whatever remains will still be controlled by Russia.  Even more so then before the war actually.   The US is going to suffer serious economic consequences if gas remains at 5.81 a gallon like I paid this morning. 

Lots of wasted resources, and blown up weapons and people.  From the beginning, didn't it seem obvious that Russia would pull out all stops and go all in?

Jonas!
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 01:10:42 PM
Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Billy was extremely hardline against Russia in the past after 2014.  It seems his mindset has evolved since then. 

 
Overall, I think this would have turned out way better if the West had let Ukraine remain a bit of a puppet for Russia.   They will now wind up being dead or destroyed instead, and in the end whatever remains will still be controlled by Russia.  Even more so then before the war actually.   The US is going to suffer serious economic consequences if gas remains at 5.81 a gallon like I paid this morning. 

Lots of wasted resources, and blown up weapons and people.  From the beginning, didn't it seem obvious that Russia would pull out all stops and go all in?

Jonas!

If Ukraine had remained a puppet of Russia, why wouldn't Russia have then taken over Moldova? After all if Russia had control of Ukraine and all its resources and military taking over Moldova would be easy.

Then of course there's Finland. If Russia had taken over Ukraine and Moldova why wouldn't Putin have taken over Finland? After taking over Ukraine and Moldova with no interference from the west why wouldn't Putin have moved in and taken over Finland and perhaps maybe even moved in and taken over Sweden?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on May 22, 2022, 01:30:25 PM
If Ukraine had remained a puppet of Russia, why wouldn't Russia have then taken over Moldova? After all if Russia had control of Ukraine and all its resources and military taking over Moldova would be easy.

Then of course there's Finland. If Russia had taken over Ukraine and Moldova why wouldn't Putin have taken over Finland? After taking over Ukraine and Moldova with no interference from the west why wouldn't Putin have moved in and taken over Finland and perhaps maybe even moved in and taken over Sweden?

If Ukraine had remained as it was, 'lean russian', I don't think Russia would have felt any need to move in at all.  Once Ukraine started to lean West, and Russia saw another rival working against it's interests right on it's doorstep, this war seemed to become more inevitable. 
I don't the other nations you mentioned were in danger, had things remained as they were.   
Jonas!   
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Steveboy on May 22, 2022, 01:52:03 PM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Westcoast have you actually been to Russia? How many times and how long for?

Never been to Russia. Please tell me about Russia from your viewpoint.

I do not think giving you my view point will help.. In fact I do not think anything will help you.. Will just let you carry on your arm chair expertise about a country you have never visited or know anything about.. keep it up :thumbsup:

Steveboy why is it that all the western members of the former USSR and Warsaw Pact joined the EU and NATO when the USSR broke up? Do you really think you know more about Russia than these countries?

I do not think you have a clue about absolutely anything other than what garbage you read in the media.. its not even worth discussing anything with you it is a total waste of time.. Im not saying Russia is perfect in every way no country is.. but to be sat in an armchair 5000 miles away from a country you know NOTHING about personally about and a country that you have never even set foot in.. well what can I say.. nothing really .. Im not even going to attempt spending any time arguing the good or the bad points about Russia with you..it is totally impossible .. and that does not just apply to you.. I would also not waste my time arguing with someone about say crab fishing off the Alaska coast .. who has never even been in a boat let alone caught a crab  :laugh:

There is no hope..
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on May 22, 2022, 01:54:46 PM


All governments lie that's a reality. My government in Canada lies on a regular basis. If we vote in a different party they'll lie to us.

Billy even you must realize if Ukraine gives up, Russia will take over Ukraine. Prior to the war Ukraine was known as the bread basket of Europe. There's lots of oil and gas in Ukraine. Having Ukraine would mean Russia could exercise control over its off shore rights in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov.  Then of course there's Moldova. If Putin takes over Ukraine, why wouldn't he take over Moldova?


Professor, please give one good reason (such as Putin gave for invading Ukraine) Russia should invade Moldova.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: dorbradavid on May 22, 2022, 02:12:45 PM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

I don't agree with everything you write, but "the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war " - is sadly true.  :(
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 22, 2022, 02:26:44 PM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Westcoast have you actually been to Russia? How many times and how long for?

Never been to Russia. Please tell me about Russia from your viewpoint.

Proffesor you never visited Russia and you have the guts to lecture us about the country!

Obviously you must be the biggest BS in the world!

For this reason I retun you back the Medal you offered me as you have surrpassed me by miles...

WELL DONE NUMBER 1 BULLSHITTER IN  THE WORLD!

(https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/number-one-1-award-ribbon-1st-first-place-medal-golden-blue-picture-id999510954?k=20&m=999510954&s=170667a&w=0&h=nJ-Nk6Nwj28-IEqtnPTnp_KxfNhpoeDVUyKqHQYE5U8=)

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander!


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 22, 2022, 02:42:44 PM


All governments lie that's a reality. My government in Canada lies on a regular basis. If we vote in a different party they'll lie to us.

Billy even you must realize if Ukraine gives up, Russia will take over Ukraine. Prior to the war Ukraine was known as the bread basket of Europe. There's lots of oil and gas in Ukraine. Having Ukraine would mean Russia could exercise control over its off shore rights in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov.  Then of course there's Moldova. If Putin takes over Ukraine, why wouldn't he take over Moldova?


Professor, please give one good reason (such as Putin gave for invading Ukraine) Russia should invade Moldova.

Transnistria ,  part of moldova as you know, would not exist if not for russian troops initially, continued russian troop presence ,and russia pooring millions into it annually since 91. Thats a generation.

There is more than a tad cringe and irony in you mentioning why russia would want to interfer(or invade ) in moldova.
  (:)

Moldovia considred it an invading force then, and the battalion assigned there permenantly is an invading force in a soverign nation..



But carry on....
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on May 22, 2022, 03:02:26 PM


All governments lie that's a reality. My government in Canada lies on a regular basis. If we vote in a different party they'll lie to us.

Billy even you must realize if Ukraine gives up, Russia will take over Ukraine. Prior to the war Ukraine was known as the bread basket of Europe. There's lots of oil and gas in Ukraine. Having Ukraine would mean Russia could exercise control over its off shore rights in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov.  Then of course there's Moldova. If Putin takes over Ukraine, why wouldn't he take over Moldova?


Professor, please give one good reason (such as Putin gave for invading Ukraine) Russia should invade Moldova.

Transnistria ,  part of moldova as you know, would not exist if not for russian troops initially, continued russian troop presence ,and russia pooring millions into it annually since 91. Thats a generation.

There is more than a tad cringe and irony in you mentioning why russia would want to interfer in moldova.
  (:)

But carry on....

AJ  Thank you for answering for WestCoast but even you did not give one reason for Russia to invade.  not interfer. 
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 22, 2022, 04:16:14 PM
It's a discussion forum.
You asked a question.
You may get answers from others, it happens.

They did invade, and then left troops for 30 years there and still have them there.
 Perhaps answer us all  why they maintain the regions  entire economy on russias budget and keep troops there for decades?
This will answer why they invaded when they did previously, why they are still there,
and why they might be interested in further invasion.

As reminder:
You asked why russia,who invaded moldove previously and remains there with invasive  troops, would want to invade moldova again.

Then repeated the question.

Ask chechens or perhaps Ukrainian why russia invades twice?

You seemingly want to pretend they have no reason to do so.
If you want me to play along ,ok ,here you go.
They dont need to invade Moldova because they already did and remain there with troops.
Better?
  :'(




Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 04:39:12 PM


All governments lie that's a reality. My government in Canada lies on a regular basis. If we vote in a different party they'll lie to us.

Billy even you must realize if Ukraine gives up, Russia will take over Ukraine. Prior to the war Ukraine was known as the bread basket of Europe. There's lots of oil and gas in Ukraine. Having Ukraine would mean Russia could exercise control over its off shore rights in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov.  Then of course there's Moldova. If Putin takes over Ukraine, why wouldn't he take over Moldova?


Professor, please give one good reason (such as Putin gave for invading Ukraine) Russia should invade Moldova.

Moldova has right wing types and probably Nazis so there's a reason for Putin to invade. Moldova has a military so Russia would want to demilitarize Moldova to feel safe. Both reasons I'm sure you supported for Russia invading Ukraine.

The Russians in Transnistria will be grateful to Putin for freeing them from the yoke of democracy in Moldova. So might a few Russians in Moldova proper. With all the ethnic Russians in Transnistria it will be easy to install a puppet pro Russian government in the Moldova federal government and all regional and city governments. Because of all the ethnic Russians in Transnistria and Moldova's small size and population it will probably be far easier to control Moldova than Ukraine.

Moldova has announced they want to join the EU, another reason for Russia to invade. Moldova's constitution says it must remain neutral however there's probably a way to change the constitution so by invading Moldova before it joins NATO Russia prevents Moldova from joining NATO.

Taking over Moldova means there's more of a buffer zone between Russia and NATO states such as Romania and other more western NATO states.

Since Moldova borders Romania, a NATO state, Russia can more easily harass a NATO state much as Russia has done with Estonia.

There's probably far more reasons, those are just a few. 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220429IPR28232/grant-moldova-eu-candidate-status-say-meps
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 04:44:42 PM
Lots of that aid money is already being stolen.. weapons are already going on the black market ..

Its not like arming and helping a normal country.. they are sending money and weapons to the most corrupt country on the planet..


Every thing comes out in the wash at some point and so will it here..

Transparency International ranks corruption around the world. Russia is a number of points more corrupt than Ukraine. This was published in 2021, well before Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Imagine what Russia's ranking is now?

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 04:49:02 PM

Ukraine gave it it's best shot in Mariupol and lost. It's inevitable that they will lose the entire war but the West is injecting 40+ billion in an attempt to prolong the war and get more people killed. With the West not contributing troops, Ukraine isn't going to win but the West will reward Zelensky with a $35 million dollar mansion in Florida as long as he prolongs the war. Maybe Biden and his puppet masters want Ukraine to be the next 10 year Vietnam with no real goal to win?

Billy you're an American you know that's not the reason for the $40 billion military aid package. Along with the $40 billion aid package is going to come conditions on the US military receiving all sorts of information on how the military weapons performed in real world war conditions. Any problems with the weapons will mean the weapons can be sent to Poland and the American military can see the results first hand and perform any needed repairs and return the weapons to the battlefield in Ukraine. This is something that no amount of testing can cover.

Billy of course wants Ukraine to surrender to Russia to avoid any more Ukrainian and more importantly Russian deaths. If Russia were to invade the US Billy would say just surrender to Putin to avoid having any Americans and Russians killed.

Westcoast have you actually been to Russia? How many times and how long for?

Never been to Russia. Please tell me about Russia from your viewpoint.

Proffesor you never visited Russia and you have the guts to lecture us about the country!

Obviously you must be the biggest BS in the world!

For this reason I retun you back the Medal you offered me as you have surrpassed me by miles...

WELL DONE NUMBER 1 BULLSHITTER IN  THE WORLD!

(https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/number-one-1-award-ribbon-1st-first-place-medal-golden-blue-picture-id999510954?k=20&m=999510954&s=170667a&w=0&h=nJ-Nk6Nwj28-IEqtnPTnp_KxfNhpoeDVUyKqHQYE5U8=)

What is good for the goose is also good for the gander!
Wiz last time I was on RUA I was told you fled Greece during the times of the military junta. Apparently you had a choice be jailed by the junta or flee and for some reason you choose the UK. Somehow I doubt you were a freedom fighter trying to overthrow the junta.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2022, 04:51:28 PM
 
Yes there are Nazis and other far right types in Ukraine. There are also Nazis and far right types in Russia. Why isn't Putin going after those people in Russia? There are Nazis and far right types in Poland, does that mean that Putin is going to invade Poland or Germany because there are Nazis and far right types in Germany, also in the UK?


There are people who are far right in every country yet governments don't go after them. Just because someone is an asshole, racist or has strange beliefs doesn't mean they need to be eliminated. Name one country besides Ukraine that allows far right groups to be a top military unit armed with military grade weapons. Do you not see the difference between far right groups in Ukraine and in Russia?


Billy if you're going to post about biolabs you've got to also include evidence from some reputable sources.


I put articles announcing the funding and American government documents that show funds to biolabs in Ukraine in the link below. Obama was the main drive in building biolabs in Eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa and funding for Chinese labs.  I supplied Ukrainian websites that now have deleted their web pages. Your propaganda media has lied to you about their existence because they need your support in funding the war in Ukraine. Will you be angry at your media or will you continue to read and watch them?

https://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,29802.0.html

As for NATO moving east Russia has the heavily armed and probably nuke capable enclave of Kaliningrad in the middle of the EU and NATO. Why is it acceptable to have Kaliningrad with lots of weapons and probably nukes in the middle of the EU and NATO and not acceptable to have Ukraine as a member of the EU and NATO?


Russia didn't promise the West that they wouldn't arm Kaliningrad. The West promised Russia they wouldn't move NATO towards Russia. You don't seem upset with people who lie a lot and think they are the good guys in this case.

Billy you realize that the Russian government is a Mafia state? You're supporting a Mafia state what does that say about you?


I don't support Russia's invasion of Ukraine. You are supporting corrupt criminal governments activity in Ukraine that put them in harms way when provoking Russia. Imagine if Russia did to Canada what America done in Ukraine.

All governments lie that's a reality. My government in Canada lies on a regular basis. If we vote in a different party they'll lie to us.


Justin Trudeau, like Biden are members of the World Economic Forum. Members of the WEF are dangerous people. When criminal liars tell you it's important to send billions to Ukraine, don't trust their motives! Simple. They know we can't audit the money and they will get kickbacks. The longer the war lasts, the richer they get. Read the 1935 book called "War is a Racket". The price of a barrel of oil is 5 times higher now than when Trump was President. Biden turned off America's oil and shut down your pipeline. Russia is getting rich which helps fund their war. The Ruble is stronger now than when the war started. I seriously doubt the West wants to bankrupt Russia so they can't fund the war. Money is flowing both ways and we're all paying for it.

Then of course there's Moldova. If Putin takes over Ukraine, why wouldn't he take over Moldova?


You're speculating Putin won't stop war after Ukraine which allows you to support more war. The media has got people scared in their attempt to manipulate their minds that everybody should just join NATO. Sweden, Finland, and maybe Moldova? NATO was a defensive force created to defend against the Soviet Union. After the Soviet Union dissolved, NATO was used to go on offense dropping bombs on Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Libya. NATO is being used by corrupt politicians. Putin may be a bad guy but he has valid concerns to stop liars from moving NATO towards Russia.

You say your government lies. America's government not only lies, but is corrupt and criminal stealing the election not allowing people to choose their leaders and destiny. It's interesting for me to read people trying to save Ukraine and doing nothing to save their own country. Someone answer me this, why do you think Western governments who don't care about it's own citizens will care about strangers in Ukraine? The billions we are sending to Ukraine will prolong the war, get more people killed, and get more cities leveled. Ukraine will be in ruins and Western nations will abandon them just as fast as they abandoned Afghanistan and Vietnam.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 22, 2022, 05:30:00 PM
BillyB.
Besides ukraine?
(Which required azov to take measures to step away from the neo nazi ideology before they were recognized as a part.of the national guard, but that doesn't fit your current, or Putins narrative.)

 But you wanted another country so sure!
Russia.
Wagner pmc.(still heavily involved in ukraine)
Founder Dimitri Utkin.
Former Lt. colonel.
SS tatts on his collarbones.
Before you say its not part.of Russian military ,  he was
Decorated at the kremilin in 2016 for performance in Donbas.

Groups war crimes are reknown including carving swatzikas in thier victims.

A hero of russia.
The neo nazi leaders of dnr also recognized as heros of russia by the kremlin.
They were members also of ruscich battalion, the msntra is ethnic cleasing of all.former imperial.russian lands
and axnewxrusdia,anyone not ethnic russia should be killed or forecably put in camps and sent out of these territories.


(,nevermind Russia also allowing the  russian imperial guards  Partizan camps near st pete that trained terrorist bombers that carried out the bombings on immigrants  in sweden)
Thise camps were.still not shut down despite  russian RIM being the only neo nazi organization named as international .terrorist.)

Hows your deep state conspricies  play into  the  alleged Russian good guys wanting  ethinic cleansing ?



Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: yankee on May 22, 2022, 06:24:31 PM
It's a discussion forum.
You asked a question.
You may get answers from others, it happens.

They did invade, and then left troops for 30 years there and still have them there.
 Perhaps answer us all  why they maintain the regions  entire economy on russias budget and keep troops there for decades?
This will answer why they invaded when they did previously, why they are still there,
and why they might be interested in further invasion.

As reminder:
You asked why russia,who invaded moldove previously and remains there with invasive  troops, would want to invade moldova again.

Then repeated the question.

Ask chechens or perhaps Ukrainian why russia invades twice?

You seemingly want to pretend they have no reason to do so.
If you want me to play along ,ok ,here you go.
They dont need to invade Moldova because they already did and remain there with troops.
Better?
  :'(


I appologize.  I did not know your nick name was professor.  Since I was not specific enough I withdraw the question.

When I have questions regarding russia, cis, ussr, russian federation I ask a russian historian. 

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2022, 06:42:58 PM
BillyB.
Besides ukraine?
(Which required azov to take measures to step away from the neo nazi ideology before they were recognized as a part.of the national guard, but that doesn't fit your current, or Putins narrative.)

 But you wanted another country so sure!
Russia.
Wagner pmc.(still heavily involved in ukraine)
Founder Dimitri Utkin.
Former Lt. colonel.
SS tatts on his collarbones.
Before you say its not part.of Russian military ,  he was
Decorated at the kremilin in 2016 for performance in Donbas.

Groups war crimes are reknown including carving swatzikas in thier victims.

A hero of russia.
The neo nazi leaders of dnr also recognized as heros of russia by the kremlin.
They were members also of ruscich battalion, the msntra is ethnic cleasing of all.former imperial.russian lands
and axnewxrusdia,anyone not ethnic russia should be killed or forecably put in camps and sent out of these territories.


(,nevermind Russia also allowing the  russian imperial guards  Partizan camps near st pete that trained terrorist bombers that carried out the bombings on immigrants  in sweden)
Thise camps were.still not shut down despite  russian RIM being the only neo nazi organization named as international .terrorist.)

Hows your deep state conspricies  play into  the  alleged Russian good guys wanting  ethinic cleansing ?

You post a picture of one guy. I can assure you there are extreme right leaning and extreme left leaning soldiers in the US military although they may not advertise how they feel. The difference is Ukraine allowed an entire group of White Nationalists to be armed with military grade weapons and equipment. So what if they publicly denounce they don't want to believe in Nazi ideology anymore. You can say you're not a man anymore but you are still a man.

The Nazi elements of the Ukraine military was allowed to operate on purpose. Our Western nations never wanted to dissolve the units because we wanted to use them for this very moment. Our current goverment is supporting NAZI elements in the Ukrainian military. We can't audit the $40 billion we're going to send them just as we couldn't audit the past billions we sent Ukraine but somebody is feeding and arming them very well so they'll be the leading fighting unit of Ukraine just as the SS was for Nazi Germany.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 22, 2022, 07:16:55 PM
It's a discussion forum.
You asked a question.
You may get answers from others, it happens.

They did invade, and then left troops for 30 years there and still have them there.
 Perhaps answer us all  why they maintain the regions  entire economy on russias budget and keep troops there for decades?
This will answer why they invaded when they did previously, why they are still there,
and why they might be interested in further invasion.

As reminder:
You asked why russia,who invaded moldove previously and remains there with invasive  troops, would want to invade moldova again.

Then repeated the question.

Ask chechens or perhaps Ukrainian why russia invades twice?

You seemingly want to pretend they have no reason to do so.
If you want me to play along ,ok ,here you go.
They dont need to invade Moldova because they already did and remain there with troops.
Better?
  :'(


I appologize.  I did not know your nick name was professor.  Since I was not specific enough I withdraw the question.

When I have questions regarding russia, cis, ussr, russian federation I ask a russian historian.

I'm no expert, your question was specific.

You withdraw it when  the answer was obvious all along.Transnistria doesnt exist without a russian invasion force

It does not take a professor of Moldovan history to see that or acknowledge that.
  I'm .sure a Russian history.expert will say it was moldovas fault the ethnic russians needed protection?
There you go, one possible reason for.russian invasion.
Georgia got a taste of it  too.

Again you could have given us your answer as to why you feel there is zero reason for russia to invade moldova now , and what.reason they had in 91 and why they keep troops there


I doubt they will invade moldova, they have reasons too,but lack.the desire of the cost amd repercussions it might cause .
They are fairly busy at the moment anyway.



Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 22, 2022, 07:24:53 PM
BillyB.
Besides ukraine?
(Which required azov to take measures to step away from the neo nazi ideology before they were recognized as a part.of the national guard, but that doesn't fit your current, or Putins narrative.)

 But you wanted another country so sure!
Russia.
Wagner pmc.(still heavily involved in ukraine)
Founder Dimitri Utkin.
Former Lt. colonel.
SS tatts on his collarbones.
Before you say its not part.of Russian military ,  he was
Decorated at the kremilin in 2016 for performance in Donbas.

Groups war crimes are reknown including carving swatzikas in thier victims.

A hero of russia.
The neo nazi leaders of dnr also recognized as heros of russia by the kremlin.
They were members also of ruscich battalion, the msntra is ethnic cleasing of all.former imperial.russian lands
and axnewxrusdia,anyone not ethnic russia should be killed or forecably put in camps and sent out of these territories.


(,nevermind Russia also allowing the  russian imperial guards  Partizan camps near st pete that trained terrorist bombers that carried out the bombings on immigrants  in sweden)
Thise camps were.still not shut down despite  russian RIM being the only neo nazi organization named as international .terrorist.)

Hows your deep state conspricies  play into  the  alleged Russian good guys wanting  ethinic cleansing ?

You post a picture of one guy. I can assure you there are extreme right leaning and extreme left leaning soldiers in the US military although they may not advertise how they feel. The difference is Ukraine allowed an entire group of White Nationalists to be armed with military grade weapons and equipment. So what if they publicly denounce they don't want to believe in Nazi ideology anymore. You can say you're not a man anymore but you are still a man.

The Nazi elements of the Ukraine military was allowed to operate on purpose. Our Western nations never wanted to dissolve the units because we wanted to use them for this very moment. Our current goverment is supporting NAZI elements in the Ukrainian military. We can't audit the $40 billion we're going to send them just as we couldn't audit the past billions we sent Ukraine but somebody is feeding and arming them very well so they'll be the leading fighting unit of Ukraine just as the SS was for Nazi Germany.

There are 53  neo nazi groups in russia, thd bulk of the.worlds neo nazi groups.

Wagner group is neo nazi ,you do understand the names sgnificance?

You thibkmthr group is known for neo nazism.and mutilatimg thoer victoms from.one guy?

The one guy, is decorated by the kremlin.
Along with the dnr neo nazi leaders

Thats a pattern billy not an idolated event

Dimitry Rogozin Russian head of ministry of space.


Title: Re: Nazis in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on May 22, 2022, 07:48:26 PM
Below is another link to Neo-Nazi groups in Russia.

Certainly some Putinnistas will try to spin the reality in a different light. It is though pretty black and white.


https://lansinginstitute.org/2020/06/09/combat-training-for-european-neo-nazis-in-russia/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 09:41:48 PM
Moldovan President Maia Sandu speaks to the European Parliament. Moldova formally applied for EU membership in early March 2022. On 5 May, the European Parliament called for the country to be given EU candidate status.

So many members on RUA seem to know far more about Russia's relations with other European countries than even the senior politicians of those countries being harassed and invaded by Russia. Perhaps these RUA members should consider a career in diplomacy, politics or perhaps the intelligent services?

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2022, 10:01:59 PM
Wagner group is neo nazi ,you do understand the names sgnificance?


Wagner is not neo nazi. Wagner is a private mercenary force for hire. They are not ideology driven. Like all private mercenary forces around the world, there are soldiers in those units who are not normal. Many have extreme ideologies or none at all. Although Russia says they don't support Wagner, I don't believe that. Wagner will do the dirty work Russia needs so they can avoid bad publicity.

Guys, it doesn't matter if you claim Russia loves neo nazi forces. What they hate is neo nazi forces next door to them that want them dead. They have a right to eliminate a threat to them. They have the right to do what the West failed to do. Imagine a group in Ukraine that are extreme racists towards minorities yet they are allowed to function and grow with our tax dollars. Is that acceptable? NO and neither is neo nazi support. If our goal is to bring Democracy to Ukraine and help it grow in the right direction, we failed. The West used Ukraine and we are using them again to hurt Russia. While we are hurting Russia, it's the Ukrainian soldiers and civilians that are getting killed and their cities leveled. In the end, we will abandon Ukraine but take a few refugees in a last ditch effort to show we care. This song and dance has played out in other nations with Afghanistan being the latest.

Mark my words. Russia is going to win this war. The West's crime is their support in prolonging Ukraine's suffering. I would've supported America's invasion and spanking of Cuba in the 60's. I'm not a hypocrite so I can't blame Putin for what he's doing in protecting Russia.

If you want this Ukraine problem solved with minimum deaths and war, fix America's elections and ALL of our problems, inflation, product shortages, border crisis, war, etc... will be solved with good government. Trump didn't start wars like his predecessors and with Trump in power Putin didn't invade any of his neighbors like he did when Bush, Obama, and Biden were in power. I suspect people here will be arguing for years on how to save Ukraine which is an impossible task with a corrupt criminal American government that's taken over America. The propaganda media owned by corrupt government has manipulated your minds so much that your priorities aren't in order.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 22, 2022, 10:33:04 PM
Wagner group is neo nazi ,you do understand the names sgnificance?


Wagner is not neo nazi. Wagner is a private mercenary force for hire. They are not ideology driven. Like all private mercenary forces around the world, there are soldiers in those units who are not normal. Many have extreme ideologies or none at all. Although Russia says they don't support Wagner, I don't believe that. Wagner will do the dirty work Russia needs so they can avoid bad publicity.
[/ quote]

According to the Guardian article and others The Wagner Group are far right and associated with other far right groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists

Quote
Guys, it doesn't matter if you claim Russia loves neo nazi forces. What they hate is neo nazi forces next door to them that want them dead. They have a right to eliminate a threat to them. They have the right to do what the West failed to do. Imagine a group in Ukraine that are extreme racists towards minorities yet they are allowed to function and grow with our tax dollars. Is that acceptable? NO and neither is neo nazi support. If our goal is to bring Democracy to Ukraine and help it grow in the right direction, we failed. The West used Ukraine and we are using them again to hurt Russia. While we are hurting Russia, it's the Ukrainian soldiers and civilians that are getting killed and their cities leveled. In the end, we will abandon Ukraine but take a few refugees in a last ditch effort to show we care. This song and dance has played out in other nations with Afghanistan being the latest.

If Russia has the right to go into Ukraine to eliminate neo Nazi groups which Russia deems a threat to Russia then NATO must have the right to go into Russia to eliminate threats NATO deems a threat to member countries. Correct?

Quote
Mark my words. Russia is going to win this war. The West's crime is their support in prolonging Ukraine's suffering. I would've supported America's invasion and spanking of Cuba in the 60's. I'm not a hypocrite so I can't blame Putin for what he's doing in protecting Russia.

Russia might be able to outlast Ukraine and win against Ukraine even with the aid of western weapons. However Russia will be sanctioned for decades after the war's end. If Putin decides to invade a NATO country due to his success in Ukraine, Russia will be destroyed worse than Ukraine. Nukes or no nukes.

Quote
If you want this Ukraine problem solved with minimum deaths and war, fix America's elections and ALL of our problems, inflation, product shortages, border crisis, war, etc... will be solved with good government. Trump didn't start wars like his predecessors and with Trump in power Putin didn't invade any of his neighbors like he did when Bush, Obama, and Biden were in power. I suspect people here will be arguing for years on how to save Ukraine which is an impossible task with a corrupt criminal American government that's taken over America. The propaganda media owned by corrupt government has manipulated your minds so much that your priorities aren't in order.

So the solution to stop the war is to let Russia take Ukraine. Then of course Putin will want Moldova so Putin will get Moldova. Then Putin will want Georgia because NATO isn't going to interfere.

Billy any other countries we should let Putin have?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2022, 11:05:19 PM
So the solution to stop the war is to let Russia take Ukraine. Then of course Putin will want Moldova so Putin will get Moldova. Then Putin will want Georgia because NATO isn't going to interfere.

Billy any other countries we should let Putin have?

Hey! China wants to take Taiwan so lets initiate war to prevent a war! Putin has not gone after all of Moldova or Georgia. You're speculating and Russia already knows NATO isn't going to put boots on the ground for those nations. Your media has failed to educate you but months before this war, Russia took their complaints to the UN to find a solution to the neo nazis, encroaching NATO, and biolabs problems in Ukraine. If the West truly didn't want war, they will listen to Russia's concerns and take action. They will sit at a negotiation table and say they will disband neo nazi groups, guarantee they'll finally keep their promise and stop moving NATO East, and close the biolabs which the research could've been done in our countries unless it violated a treaty. How hard is it to take action on those issues? Imagine if we did something to relieve Russia's concerns, there wouldn't be war. And if Russia lied, then it wouldn't make a difference but we didn't even try to make a difference, did we?


According to the Guardian article and others The Wagner Group are far right and associated with other far right groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists


I don't know how many times I have to say this. Western media have become propaganda so stop educating yourself through television and media rags. Obviously that article is a hit piece. Do a quick Google search and you'll find Wagner does a lot of business in Africa working to protect black presidents and working along black soldiers. Some Wagner mercenaries may hate blacks but Wagner and their mercenaries aren't driven by ideology, they're driven by money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group#/media/File:RussiansecurityBangui.png

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/headlines/507041-analysis-wagners-actions-in-car-reflect-russias-increasing-military-presence-in-africa.html

https://www.fpri.org/article/2022/03/the-wagner-groups-playbook-in-africa-mali/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/09/wagner-group-russia-uraine-mercenaries/

You can find many more photos and articles of Wagner protecting and working along black people but what does it matter? You're set in your ways thinking Putin supports neo nazi groups in his country so he doesn't have the right to complain about hostile neo nazis next door. Imagine you're a bad father with a bad kid in your house who's a hellraiser but the kid next door is also a hellraiser who steals from you and vandalizes your property. What if I told you that you have no right to stop that kid because you have a kid like that at home. That's what you're trying to tell Putin. He's not going to listen to you and most people won't listen to you. But go on believing the propaganda media and our corrupt politicians we're the good guys that did nothing wrong in Ukraine and Putin invaded for no valid reason.

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 23, 2022, 01:13:24 AM
So the solution to stop the war is to let Russia take Ukraine. Then of course Putin will want Moldova so Putin will get Moldova. Then Putin will want Georgia because NATO isn't going to interfere.

Billy any other countries we should let Putin have?

Hey! China wants to take Taiwan so lets initiate war to prevent a war! Putin has not gone after all of Moldova or Georgia. You're speculating and Russia already knows NATO isn't going to put boots on the ground for those nations. Your media has failed to educate you but months before this war, Russia took their complaints to the UN to find a solution to the neo nazis, encroaching NATO, and biolabs problems in Ukraine. If the West truly didn't want war, they will listen to Russia's concerns and take action. They will sit at a negotiation table and say they will disband neo nazi groups, guarantee they'll finally keep their promise and stop moving NATO East, and close the biolabs which the research could've been done in our countries unless it violated a treaty. How hard is it to take action on those issues? Imagine if we did something to relieve Russia's concerns, there wouldn't be war. And if Russia lied, then it wouldn't make a difference but we didn't even try to make a difference, did we?

Quote
If Ukraine got rid of neo Nazis in Ukraine would Putin get rid of neo Nazis in Russia. I doubt it. The Russian enclave of Kaliningrad is in the middle of the EU and NATO. Is Putin going to get rid of the Russian military equipment and nukes in Kaliningrad? It seems all the negotiations are one sided. Putin wants all and is willing to give up nothing.



According to the Guardian article and others The Wagner Group are far right and associated with other far right groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists


I don't know how many times I have to say this. Western media have become propaganda so stop educating yourself through television and media rags. Obviously that article is a hit piece. Do a quick Google search and you'll find Wagner does a lot of business in Africa working to protect black presidents and working along black soldiers. Some Wagner mercenaries may hate blacks but Wagner and their mercenaries aren't driven by ideology, they're driven by money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group#/media/File:RussiansecurityBangui.png

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/headlines/507041-analysis-wagners-actions-in-car-reflect-russias-increasing-military-presence-in-africa.html

https://www.fpri.org/article/2022/03/the-wagner-groups-playbook-in-africa-mali/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/09/wagner-group-russia-uraine-mercenaries/

You can find many more photos and articles of Wagner protecting and working along black people but what does it matter? You're set in your ways thinking Putin supports neo nazi groups in his country so he doesn't have the right to complain about hostile neo nazis next door. Imagine you're a bad father with a bad kid in your house who's a hellraiser but the kid next door is also a hellraiser who steals from you and vandalizes your property. What if I told you that you have no right to stop that kid because you have a kid like that at home. That's what you're trying to tell Putin. He's not going to listen to you and most people won't listen to you. But go on believing the propaganda media and our corrupt politicians we're the good guys that did nothing wrong in Ukraine and Putin invaded for no valid reason.

Billy did you read your sources? They all say the Wagner Group lied, cheat, stole and committed human rights abuses while working in Africa. You don't like it that the US government lies to you but you're OK with the Wagner Group lying, cheating, stealing and committing human rights abuses?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Texan77 on May 23, 2022, 04:54:27 AM
Billy supports every right wing extreme pro Nazi position in the USA then complains the Ukraine is Nazi. The right wing Nazi government of Russia invade Ukraine for a land grab and wants to remove all Ukraine cultural from the remaining few people that will be left in what is the biggest attempted genocide in modern history where a country of 38 million is erased. Then claim it is all ok because there are a few Nazi in the country., AS far as the top people in the country being Nazi you have to understand Putin it extreme right wing and in control of Russia. If all right wing people nationalist are consider Nazis then you have to understand Russia is controlled by a Nazi government. This whole war is a Russian nationalist war ( a Nazi war) against Ukraine per Putin own admission in his written report before the war written for every Russian military personnel to read. All territory captured by Russia is going to be annexed to be part of Russia perinatally. Russia has filtration camps where 30 thousand Ukrainians people are being reeducated to be Russia nationalist to vote for Russian annexation of Ukraine territory when returned home. There has not been anything more extreme Nazi in my life time as Russia invasion of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 23, 2022, 08:17:39 AM
BillyB good Morning

Firstly let me congratulate you about the sensible and logical arguments you posted in reply to the BS, ignorant professor from Canada and all the other fanatic people who can't see beyond their noses. Good idea is to ask these people how many times they have visited either Ukraine or Russia or any other country of the Ex USSR?

It is clear that fanatics without logic have taken over the asylum and the only sane person appears to be only you. Sorry that I cannot join you to educate these ignoramus people because I wake up with a deep tooth pain and very large temperature, near to 39C, but you are capable to education them on your own!

These people seem to forget who started all, with the Orange revolution in 2004-5 and of course with the coup d'etat in 2014 and then signing the Minsk Agreement, in the presence of the French President Macron, which they never cared to implement as Putin asked them to respect their signature. Unfortunately the very Democratic Government of the Alzheimer President of USA and his gangsters from Washington had different plans for making  themselves more rich!

Our friend AJ is annoyed because of his MIL house in kherson and a couple more ignorant people on this thread.

Finally I agree with you that all of them forgot the French Legionnaires, the American Academy and of course the  Wagner too, all private mercenaries for hire%u2026%u2026.

I think you are talking to a brick wall%u2026%u2026wasting your useful time.

Texan you are totally ignorant and I suggest you go by the beach and take some photos or video....to keep your nights occupied  . Avoid the Big arses..... regular of the beaches in Tampa , Fort Luderale etc. Miami and also Los Angeles...... Have a good time and when you waske up....come back to tell us all your dreams.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AvHdB on May 23, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
Regarding Wagner group as is suggested some do not understand who and what R. Wagner was. Here is some background. Below is from Wikipedia while quite simple it gives a good overall picture.

For the good order I tend to dislike Romantic classical music.


Racism and antisemitism
Wagner's hostile writings on Jews, including Jewishness in Music, correspond to some existing trends of thought in Germany during the 19th century. Despite his very public views on this topic, throughout his life Wagner had Jewish friends, colleagues and supporters. There have been frequent suggestions that antisemitic stereotypes are represented in Wagner's operas. The characters of Alberich and Mime in the Ring, Sixtus Beckmesser in Die Meistersinger, and Klingsor in Parsifal are sometimes claimed as Jewish representations, though they are not identified as such in the librettos of these operas. The topic is further complicated by claims, which may have been credited by Wagner, that he himself was of Jewish ancestry, via his supposed father Geyer. However, there is no evidence that Geyer had Jewish ancestors.

Nazi appropriation
Adolf Hitler was an admirer of Wagner's music and saw in his operas an embodiment of his own vision of the German nation; in a 1922 speech he claimed that Wagner's works glorified "the heroic Teutonic nature ... Greatness lies in the heroic." Hitler visited Bayreuth frequently from 1923 onwards and attended the productions at the theatre. There continues to be debate about the extent to which Wagner's views might have influenced Nazi thinking.Houston Stewart Chamberlain (1855–1927), who married Wagner's daughter Eva in 1908 but never met Wagner, was the author of the racist book The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century, approved by the Nazi movement.  Chamberlain met Hitler several times between 1923 and 1927 in Bayreuth, but cannot credibly be regarded as a conduit of Wagner's own views.The Nazis used those parts of Wagner's thought that were useful for propaganda and ignored or suppressed the rest.

While Bayreuth presented a useful front for Nazi culture, and Wagner's music was used at many Nazi events, the Nazi hierarchy as a whole did not share Hitler's enthusiasm for Wagner's operas and resented attending these lengthy epics at Hitler's insistence. Some Nazi ideologists, most notably Alfred Rosenberg, rejected Parsifal as excessively Christian and pacifist.

Guido Fackler has researched evidence that indicates that it is possible that Wagner's music was used at the Dachau concentration camp in 1933–1934 to "reeducate" political prisoners by exposure to "national music". There has been no evidence to support claims, sometimes made, that his music was played at Nazi death camps during the Second World War, and Pamela Potter has noted that Wagner's music was explicitly off-limits in the camps.

Because of the associations of Wagner with antisemitism and Nazism, the performance of his music in the State of Israel has been a source of controversy.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Bodine on May 23, 2022, 10:32:46 AM
Lots of that aid money is already being stolen.. weapons are already going on the black market ..

Its not like arming and helping a normal country.. they are sending money and weapons to the most corrupt country on the planet..


Every thing comes out in the wash at some point and so will it here..

Transparency International ranks corruption around the world. Russia is a number of points more corrupt than Ukraine. This was published in 2021, well before Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Imagine what Russia's ranking is now?

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

Who the heck gives a flying hoot about these types of website's reporting? The US ranking at '67'?!? Are you kidding me?!


We had this moron who once was a FLOTUS, a State Secretary, a Senator, a POTUS-candidate; who engaged in an act that made Watergate seem like child's play, yet she's still out free and allowed to participate in the public's domain!!! Heck, her own campaign senior policy adviser at the time, who was part of this insidious act against her presidential opponent, Jake Sullivan, is Biden's current National Security Adviser!!!

Give Google a rest, will you...You remind me of so many forum posters in another universe who claims to know more about Somalia, despite not ever being there, than Somalians themselves
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 23, 2022, 11:07:23 AM

That is the kind of leadership that makes Amercans proud...... :sick0012:

AvHdb

Can you please explain to us what is the relevance of your post regarding the title of the Thread?

“ Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.”

Wagner's works glorified "the heroic Teutonic nature

In my view is just bloody trolling because you want to advertise to us the fact that Hitler hated Jews,,,,,, and I say who cares to listen to the fascist  farting Music?
 :fighting0025:
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 23, 2022, 11:38:18 AM
Quote from: billyb
Wagner is not neo nazi. Wagner is a private mercenary force for hire. They are not ideology driven. Like all private mercenary forces around the world, there are soldiers in those units who are not normal. Many have extreme ideologies or none at all. Although Russia says they don't support Wagner, I don't believe that. Wagner will do the dirty work Russia needs so they can avoid bad publicity.

 The name is neo nazi , the founder  and leader is neo nazi with SS tattoes. And ethnic cleansing of russian imperial.lands as his  stated intent.


Go.read his own words. Or girkins.
The russian soldiers most responcible for violent insurrection in donbas.
Read the source, listen to their interviews

Yet ukraine can't do the same?

Russia has a right* to attack ukraine to delete a threat?
Hahahahahaha
Wagner was ALREADY in ukraine and killing people,carving them.up  before azov existed
So ukraine had every right to.attack them.
This doesnt justify azov idelogy

It merely shows the deep seated russian hypocricy.

The west playing.politics in.ukraine?
Sure


Now cry a river that russia dint control ukrainian politics for decades !
Why do they get to,because geography?
Why dont they try it with estonia? Latvia?turkey?

The ukrainian  populace greatly tired of it,  the orange revolution wasnt from.feeling of being happy with the direction of thier government.
I was there then.


If the west manipultaled this already unhappy feeling ?
Then its on russua to have courted ukraine better?
They had closer ties and every opportunity to do soinstead they choose to str8ng arm,continuevtomlook.at ukrainisns as khohols and subclass citizens of thier own country.


Now they have acted out like a petulant child when they no.longer got thier way, poisoning past opposition, 
They cant accept a declining sphere of influence  thru negotiation,  so use military means.

Not all conservatives share  radical rights views either.

Ukraine had a right to security from russia, western nations and russia agreed to it.
Everyone broke that agreement

Same.with turkey

Guess which one is invaded,twice,  it sure isnt the nato member.

Our prioritoes should be on america,where have i stated otherwise?

Find it,or shove your " priorities are misaligned" BS up your bulldozers exhaust

_______________

Wiz, i dint care about the damage to her flat. There are other flats.

I  care about her being in direct danger due to Russian missles or russian troops if they take the area.

She is not in kherson,  she is in mikolaev,
I have other relatives in  occupied kherson.




Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification failed at courting
Post by: Lon on May 23, 2022, 02:58:28 PM

If the west manipultaled this already unhappy feeling ?
Then its on russua to have courted ukraine better?
They had closer ties and every opportunity to do soinstead they choose to str8ng arm,continuevtomlook.at ukrainisns as khohols and subclass citizens of thier own country.


this is important.  I have discussed this with others before (not on this forum).  Russia has absolutely fell short at courting Ukraine.  after staying in Russia and visiting many of wife's family friends, I can say that there life style is not any less than any western country.  from homes, cars, to entertainment possibilities, some better some not.  why has Russia failed at showing this to the Ukrainians and the rest of the world.  because they were/are stupid (perhaps ignorant?)!  They Were Stupid!!!
and now they compound it further (their stupidity) by attacking and still going with the same old propaganda.
and it all could have been stopped in its tracks by Russia hiring some expensive ad execs.

all of the before written is my opinion
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification failed at courting
Post by: WestCoast on May 23, 2022, 04:05:31 PM

If the west manipultaled this already unhappy feeling ?
Then its on russua to have courted ukraine better?
They had closer ties and every opportunity to do soinstead they choose to str8ng arm,continuevtomlook.at ukrainisns as khohols and subclass citizens of thier own country.


this is important.  I have discussed this with others before (not on this forum).  Russia has absolutely fell short at courting Ukraine.  after staying in Russia and visiting many of wife's family friends, I can say that there life style is not any less than any western country.  from homes, cars, to entertainment possibilities, some better some not.  why has Russia failed at showing this to the Ukrainians and the rest of the world.  because they were/are stupid (perhaps ignorant?)!  They Were Stupid!!!
and now they compound it further (their stupidity) by attacking and still going with the same old propaganda.
and it all could have been stopped in its tracks by Russia hiring some expensive ad execs.

all of the before written is my opinion

Lon it's actually much worse than that. Look at Russia's position relative to Europe and China. Why did Putin and his predecessors not attract manufacturing investment from Europe as China has done? It's a short train trip from western Russia to Europe vs a very long boat ride from China to Europe. Russia probably couldn't have competed against China on the very cheap stuff but if Russia had upgraded its education standards and produced more engineers and STEM graduates it could have competed against China on higher end items.

Also why hasn't Russia capitalized on its position to set up a train transportation system from China to Europe?  With an upgraded modern train corridor from China to Europe delivering goods by train from China to Europe has got to be faster than shipping them from China to Europe.

It almost seems as if Putin wants to keep his people behind the rest of the world in tech education such as STEM?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: WestCoast on May 23, 2022, 04:15:03 PM
Lots of that aid money is already being stolen.. weapons are already going on the black market ..

Its not like arming and helping a normal country.. they are sending money and weapons to the most corrupt country on the planet..


Every thing comes out in the wash at some point and so will it here..

Transparency International ranks corruption around the world. Russia is a number of points more corrupt than Ukraine. This was published in 2021, well before Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Imagine what Russia's ranking is now?

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

Who the heck gives a flying hoot about these types of website's reporting? The US ranking at '67'?!? Are you kidding me?!


We had this moron who once was a FLOTUS, a State Secretary, a Senator, a POTUS-candidate; who engaged in an act that made Watergate seem like child's play, yet she's still out free and allowed to participate in the public's domain!!! Heck, her own campaign senior policy adviser at the time, who was part of this insidious act against her presidential opponent, Jake Sullivan, is Biden's current National Security Adviser!!!

Give Google a rest, will you...You remind me of so many forum posters in another universe who claims to know more about Somalia, despite not ever being there, than Somalians themselves

Bodine if you're going to post at least learn to interpret the information. There are two bits of data on the Transparency International website that matter most.

The 'Score' out of 100. The closer to 100 the less corrupt the country is. In this case the score of the US is 67. Then there's the 'Rank'. There are 180 countries and the lower the number out of 180 the less corrupt the country is. In this case the US ranks 27/180 meaning there are 153 countries out of 180 countries that are more corrupt than the US.

If you're saying the research done by Transparency International doesn't matter then just imagine how little your opinion matters? Your opinion would be beyond worthless.
Title: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification education
Post by: Lon on May 23, 2022, 05:31:18 PM

Lon it's actually much worse than that. Look at Russia's position relative to Europe and China. Why did Putin and his predecessors not attract manufacturing investment from Europe as China has done? It's a short train trip from western Russia to Europe vs a very long boat ride from China to Europe. Russia probably couldn't have competed against China on the very cheap stuff but if Russia had upgraded its education standards and produced more engineers and STEM graduates it could have competed against China on higher end items.

Also why hasn't Russia capitalized on its position to set up a train transportation system from China to Europe?  With an upgraded modern train corridor from China to Europe delivering goods by train from China to Europe has got to be faster than shipping them from China to Europe.

It almost seems as if Putin wants to keep his people behind the rest of the world in tech education such as STEM?

I can not guess at Putin's motivation for not capitalization of there rail system or if that is even a thing, good or bad.  seams like it could be a profitable thing, but Russia is immense with a very varied land, and shipping is very cheap

I disagree about their education system.  most of my friends/acquaintances and their children I know there are very highly educated.  the university education is free or nearly free, with stipends payed out for good grades.  this is in the STEM and/or tech that I have personally seen and heard about.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 23, 2022, 07:22:24 PM
Wiz last time I was on RUA I was told you fled Greece during the times of the military junta. Apparently you had a choice be jailed by the junta or flee and for some reason you choose the UK. Somehow I doubt you were a freedom fighter trying to overthrow the junta.

I don'nt remember makig such a statement becaus the Junta were in power between 21 April 1967 till  Nov 1993.

For your information I left Grece in October 1978 and not for the reasons you expect me to say but for sheer need to improve my finanacial situation. I had a family to support and I was not stupid to pretend that I was going to be a hero, when I knew well enough Junta was controling everything.

For your info tourism was booming during the Junta period,  because they had opened all necessary ways to bring in foreign currency, as nobody would lent them, any money including their American bosses and they were desperately for Money.

I Kept my mouth shut, concentrated in the bussines and took good care of my family ..... and in 1979 at Xmas brought them over to UK. Few years down the line my old one got a PhD in computer science and was headhanded from USA and now live in CA.

Youger son was educated in the London School of Economics and Political Science
anf got a Master in finance...now working in thr CITY OF lONDON.


Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Tom Cat on May 24, 2022, 04:33:11 PM
Putin is actually paying Russian Nazis to fight in Ukraine.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTdnbtGyK/
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 24, 2022, 08:05:13 PM
Putin is actually paying Russian Nazis to fight in Ukraine.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTdnbtGyK/

Members of Ruscich battalion were early leaders of seperatist in Donbas  ,it always was a canard.
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Wiz on May 24, 2022, 09:53:25 PM
May I suggest to our American members...... to stop posting unproved fatcs etc....and try to deal with your own country and your latest episodes in Buffalo and now in Texas.

I was just listening the news....and heard that the dead people in Texas are at the moment 23 dead persons including the nut case who kill them.

I think it will be more appropriate to talk for something nearer to your home, where you may know or understand better the circumstances, instead of listening to Tip Toc bullshit (https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTdnbtGyK/) and by repeating it you try to make it as a FACT.

Most of you if not all of you you have not visited the EX USSR now Russian Federation and Ukaraine Nations. Some of you been lucky to find your mail order at the " Mail order sites"and tasted slim pizza .... instead of...the usual fat arses. Don't forget I have visited your country Several times and got my own impressions ...... Before opening your mouth I suggest you first count how many people you know they have divorced from the Mail order wife and how many are still with them?... If you know ???

Thank God I live in a civilised country and just wonder what could it happened to me living in your Joungle of Criminals, Druggies and Gangsters.

It is well known fact that "whatever country you" visisted ...error .. "Invaded" you left behind 1000s and million of people dead!

Do you realy, any of you, have real friends who are not part of your Criminal Nation?
Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: Jonas! on May 24, 2022, 11:36:25 PM
I was just listening the news....and heard that the dead people in Texas are at the moment 23 dead persons including the nut case who kill them.
Is there any other 'exceptional' nation that produces they mass shootings like we do?   We sent 50 billion to ukraine, we could use a lot of mental health facilities, and 50 billion could have built and staffed a lot.  Get the nutcases off the streets and keep them off the street.   


Thank God I live in a civilised country and just wonder what could it happened to me living in your Joungle of Criminals, Druggies and Gangsters.

It is well known fact that "whatever country you" visisted ...error .. "Invaded" you left behind 1000s and million of people dead!

Do you realy, any of you, have real friends who are not part of your Criminal Nation?
This view is gaining steam throughout the world. Even allies in the UK aren't happy with us.    Russia looks bad, but so do we.

Jonas! 

Title: Re: Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.
Post by: AJ on May 25, 2022, 12:01:34 PM
Jonas, it's been that way a long time,this  current situation certainly did not alienate u.s. from.its  allies

Our foreign policies for decades have at times.

But it's a  complex world.
I lived in greece  as a kid,when we had given them.2 squadrons of F4s,all maintence equipment, pilot and maintenance extensive training.My father (usaf then later marine airwing in F4s)was.there for this training purpose.

Sure it was a conditional gift to a junta government
And they were fearful.of Turkey (a nato member since early 50s) so wanted it regardless strings attached

The moment the.turks bombed cyprus,in july 74 , the greek pilots at the base jumped the base fence and left.perhaps as junta was mess.
That was a full day before the  then greek junta collapsed.
A New greek president was established and u.s.  presence was kicked out of Greece overnight ;)
The u.s had a base in athens then ,
 I was nowhere near that base ,but in the greek base far south
( we were booted in part because we did not attack turkey,a nato member, or protect cyprus,but there is a lot going on in that time)

I'm not saying the u.s actions were correct, they were not ,
nor saying  the greek actions were , just  pointing out the complexity.
The junta greek militaey junta in Cyprus had pulled a coup of the then President. Turkey responded.
 
At any rate Greeks traditionally hate the u.s.,nothing new at all.

Amusingly enough I've been back.to greece as a young adult in
NATO joint venture training greek troops .
I love the country and people and the food!!

My buddy wiz couldn't be more stereotypical  in this u.s. view from that country ,but I'd still.gladly share a bit of tea ,or Greek coffee with him anytime.

Greeks lik