Russian, Ukrainian & FSU Information & Manosphere Discussion Forums

Dating & Marriage With Women From Russia, Ukraine, Belarus & FSU => Agencies & Dating Sites => Topic started by: Manny on December 29, 2010, 02:33:32 PM

Title: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 29, 2010, 02:33:32 PM
I started a topic on here recently suggesting that there are changes coming across the mail-order-bride industry. They are now on the horizon and looming rapidly into view. Some of you will have read the topic here: The Mail Order Bride Industry and IMBRA is Changing! (At least for Americans) (http://real-deal-blog.com/2010/11/10/the-mail-order-bride-industry-and-imbra-is-changing-at-least-for-americans/)

In case you missed some of it, many states in the USA are going beyond the International Marriage Broker Act (IMBRA) and introducing their own state laws. There are some links right here about individual states as an example:


Many of you will know our member Andrewfi aka Andrew Wilson who lives in Estonia. In recent months, he has been quietly studying the changes as they happen, and contemplating what they denote for the future of both marriage agency owners and their clients. This month he has written a hard-hitting report detailing his findings. You can download a copy completely FREE of charge by clicking this link: Death of the Russian Bride (http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/go.php/132314) or by clicking on the ghoulish looking red banner you will see to your right hand side. If you are American, and especially if you are in the Russian bride industry operating from the US or catering to US clients, you want to read this.

On the site you land on, you will find a video by the man himself (In case you ever wondered what he looked and sounded like). When you have downloaded the document and digested the contents, you can use this topic for discussion about it.

I gather Andrew is also on hand to answer questions in case anyone has any.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: khersongirls on December 29, 2010, 08:18:49 PM
I have no problem with requiring a disclosure to a lady once you are engaged and starting the Visa process. In fact it is currently suppose to be part of the process that isn't disclose the lady and should be.

The same for the men, they should be given a copy of the ladies background check, criminal check and how many times she had applied for a visa.

 :GRRRR: What I don't like is being require to give the same data to a stranger just to say hello. ...   

This new law won't stop the men from using foreign owned sites. It will only stop the men and Americans from owning and using American owned sites.

Kevin
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: khersongirls on December 29, 2010, 08:27:44 PM
 :offtopic: paypal.com

It appears thanks to our Goverment that all credit card processing sites such as Paypal.com will now send out 1099's to the account owners.  Therefore all US based owners will know have to pay taxes on payments to foreign owned companies. 

This is going to put many agencies out of business as the cost is around 10 percent to get money from the USA to Ukraine/Russia though the banking system and still have to worry about setting up legal accounting to between two or more corporations tax laws.

Since paypal doesn't allow foreign owned companies to have accounts.  You can expect to see more sites going though different CC sites or no longer accepting credit cards.  This will prevent the consumer from having a means to recovering funding from scam agencies.

It not only IMBRA that is going to put agencies out of business. Congress is using the IRS to help.

For my agencies we are passing the new cost over to the clients who want to us paypal.com. No additional charge for cash, check or western union.

Anyone who is using a non-usa based credit card processing sites such as paypal please send me a link so I can look into using them in order to reduce the cost to my clients.

thanks
Kevin
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 29, 2010, 10:02:06 PM
It not only IMBRA that is going to put agencies out of business. Congress is using the IRS to help.

I think it is to be expected the US government tries to close down the monetary side along with everything else they are doing. It seems the US government has decided this industry is finished in its current form. Meanwhile, they'll squeeze some extra taxation profit from the dying corpse.  :GRAVE:

Many governments did the same with online gambling as Andrew mentioned.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 03:59:42 AM
Yes, as I noted in the report, payments will become just one of the means of control that will be, and are already being, imposed.
The weight of each successive burden will dissuade people from running their business or being clients of those that remain. The online gaming industry is actually a pretty good illustration of what is coming along over the next few months.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: curiogeo7 on December 30, 2010, 04:16:13 AM
Seems to be a error, on your page with the report.
 "page not found"
 I would like to read your report, but think I have the grist of it from the above post's.
 I do not think any one is to surprised at this, since we now have a socialist regime in the US. Lets face it the NAZI's are trying their best to take over America, and most western countrys.
 Their weapon? FEAR.
 Their tool? Money.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 04:24:33 AM
Hi Curiogeo, I just checked, the download page is working fine, can you retry the download for me?
Thanks.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: curiogeo7 on December 30, 2010, 04:56:01 AM
Ok, I did so.
 Error, page not found.
 Is the Video the report?
 At every point where it says down load, it only leads to endless loop.
  It's ok, watched video, as I wrote, I got the gist of it.
 Good enough for me.
 The owners of legitimate "dating, match services", I feel sympathy for, but since The fed gov. has been destroying small, independent business for awhile now, none should be surprised.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 05:09:22 AM
Hi curiogeo, I have sent you a PM. The report is not the video, the signup box for the report is down the page from the video.

One thing though, this is not about big V small biz. In this regard all IMBs are in the same boat. The process started several years ago and we are where we are now, in the main, due to complacency.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Maxx on December 30, 2010, 05:10:22 AM
I haven't posted here in months or lurked either. I am here on account of Andrew's email notification of the MOB industry.

I'll say this and go. It isn't just the MOB industry being affected by the new IRS ruling it also affects those in the gold industry as well. Issuing 1099s on everyone buying or selling a gold coin is going to put a real damper on my industry. People turn to gold because they do not trust the government. The last thing they want is for the god damned IRS to have their gold purchases filed in a IRS file in their name. Or to tip off the IRS that they might have a gold stash that they liquidate from time to time. And of course it's not just these two industries that are affected by this. It is everyone who buys and sells. When this takes affect on January 1st 2012 I expect a complete damper of business in America. Did you know that a certain sum of money and above being wired out of the US will not be allowed unless first the owner of those funds proves he has paid the taxes on them? Can't even get a foreign bank account unless you notify the Department of Treasury (IRS). Where is our freedom with all these capital controls? America is going down.

Adios

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: djfourmoney on December 30, 2010, 05:24:38 AM
 Yeah I went to download this too and it doesn't work.

 Until I can read it, I can't comment but this IMBRA was trouble to start with and the idea of American Feminist protecting women from evil American men (yeah right). A couple of high publicized murders (including one featured on NatGo) and a new law has to be passed when there isn't this much protection (from abuse) for American women when you think about it. Has a restraining order stopped a man determine to kill his wife or girlfriend from doing just that? - NO!

 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: djfourmoney on December 30, 2010, 05:27:42 AM
I haven't posted here in months or lurked either. I am here on account of Andrew's email notification of the MOB industry.

I'll say this and go. It isn't just the MOB industry being affected by the new IRS ruling it also affects those in the gold industry as well. Issuing 1099s on everyone buying or selling a gold coin is going to put a real damper on my industry. People turn to gold because they do not trust the government. The last thing they want is for the god damned IRS to have their gold purchases filed in a IRS file in their name. Or to tip off the IRS that they might have a gold stash that they liquidate from time to time. And of course it's not just these two industries that are affected by this. It is everyone who buys and sells. When this takes affect on January 1st 2012 I expect a complete damper of business in America. Did you know that a certain sum of money and above being wired out of the US will not be allowed unless first the owner of those funds proves he has paid the taxes on them? Can't even get a foreign bank account unless you notify the Department of Treasury (IRS). Where is our freedom with all these capital controls? America is going down.

Adios

 I couldn't agree more and this whole notion of Capitalism and Freedom is nonsense we have a Plutocracy and Corp. Welfare for the Richest among us. As Cypress Hill said "When the shhh goes down, you better be ready..."
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinitious on December 30, 2010, 06:14:03 AM
The hyping of the subject and strange method for getting the document raised my eyebrows allready ( but curiousity won ).
Also the message about sending a mail back from the given mailaddress with some kind of specific subject  seem to contradict the message in the mail received which said to click a link.
If I get any spam on this (new and virtually unused) mailadress from now, I will report this here. And it would be a good idea if others do this too, so an official complaint can be made.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 30, 2010, 06:51:09 AM
I just downloaded it again as a test just fine. It worked for me.

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 07:22:15 AM
I'm also glad I could assist you and "Manny" with retreading a path others have already tread on your joint project and venture in internet marketing. I'll be reading your text and will be happy to post thoughts and engage in discourse if you're capable of it. Thanks for taking the time to post your marketing adventure and research project. Interestingly enough had another member done so there would have been howls of 'self-promotion' etc..

I'm sure there are many other thinking people here who will have plenty of points and opinions to make about your latest missive. Good luck with the new venture. :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ste on December 30, 2010, 07:58:33 AM
Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?



Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 08:02:51 AM
Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?

Because that is how I want to do it.
This is not the only place that has an interest in the 'mail order bride' business.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: kievstar on December 30, 2010, 08:11:20 AM
Most American companies will be impacted and not a big deal. 

When I had my car business in USA and Ukraine every month one or both of these countries caused me to adjust my procedures. 

There are legal ways to get around it and not have any cost impact.  But this is not the message board to discuss things like this.  Really not a big deal.  If it is causing someone issues, they should seek out a partner who knows how to run businesses.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 08:15:38 AM
Perhaps some of the folks who have actually read it will provide some of their opinions for the authors which are from this forum and by proxy help the curious?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Herrie on December 30, 2010, 08:23:34 AM
Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?

Because that is how I want to do it.
This is not the only place that has an interest in the 'mail order bride' business.
So you mean: I can use the addresses in the "database" for some other purposes?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on December 30, 2010, 08:30:38 AM
This may be a good time to mention the many services which offer one-time or disposable email addresses. Some can be perfect when you want to obtain something that requires registration, but don't want the spam that follows.

A simple Google search will yield many options.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ste on December 30, 2010, 08:39:48 AM
Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?

Because that is how I want to do it.
This is not the only place that has an interest in the 'mail order bride' business.

I thought the mail order bride business was dead? Isn't that the subject of the report? So why the smoke and mirrors?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 09:08:08 AM
Kievstar, every regulatory change has a cost, sometimes it is not visible and sometimes the cumulative effect is akin to the fate of the frog being boiled alive. At first the wee froggy is comfortable warm, later he is uncomfortably hot and then later he dies, but he did not notice the gradual change that led to his demise.

I take it that you no longer run your business. In the bottom line, if it were still acceptably profitable to be doing so then you would be doing so, yes?
Same same here!


===========================
Whilst I realise that mithering about nothing is both easier and more fun than doing anything constructive it can be noted that (1) nobody is forcing you to download anything. (2) spam can not be sent to somebody who has agreed to receive email messages. (3) anyone can choose to not receive email messages from the current process by simply opting out of receipt. Thus there is, and will be, no spam sent from me to anyone.

I am happy to see that you have all figured out the innerneds so well. ;)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 30, 2010, 09:12:46 AM
Well, I downloaded it at work (first attempt) but had to use my email address. Fair warning, I do not expect additional spam from this.

Who uses Norton? Me. I just make sure the spam filter is updated. It works wonders. Besides, A good friend had his computer hacked twice by the same malicious ware, the first time he warned me. Well, Symantec took care of it the first time as easy as pie and the second time (if there was one) I never saw it. My friend switch to Norton. BTW, he is what you would call a geek.

Now to the report. Can you say sensationalism? From where I sit, I see no difference between this report and the "feminazis" reports.

I'll save the discussion for later when everyone has read it.

P.S. Curiogeo, what is it? A NAZI America or a Socialist America? You cannot have it both ways.

P.P.S. Somehow I didn't visualized Andrew with glasses. Everything else was in the ballpark.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 09:16:01 AM
*Warning Spoiler Alert!!!...Don't read if you're sensitive to such things or can't handle reading others thoughts of a written work.*


So here a few opinions and thoughts I had after the 21 pages of reading or so this document consists of as it's 'complete work'.


These points are a good start to get the discourse started. I'd like to hear what some of the others who have read this advertorial in it's entirety think about the content.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 30, 2010, 09:28:21 AM
I'm also glad I could assist you and "Manny" with retreading a path others have already tread on your joint project and venture in internet marketing. I'll be reading your text and will be happy to post thoughts and engage in discourse if you're capable of it. Thanks for taking the time to post your marketing adventure and research project. Interestingly enough had another member done so there would have been howls of 'self-promotion' etc..

Eric, just to clarify, this is not a "joint project" as I am not an author of this report; Andrew is. I haven't done the work and the research; Andrew has. How he chooses to distribute what is his document is up to him. Questions and discussion on the subject is most welcome and indeed invited.

Thank you for your opinions on the actual report above.  :nod:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 09:42:32 AM
I'm also glad I could assist you and "Manny" with retreading a path others have already tread on your joint project and venture in internet marketing. I'll be reading your text and will be happy to post thoughts and engage in discourse if you're capable of it. Thanks for taking the time to post your marketing adventure and research project. Interestingly enough had another member done so there would have been howls of 'self-promotion' etc..

Eric, just to clarify, this is not a "joint project" as I am not an author of this report; Andrew is. I haven't done the work and the research; Andrew has. How he chooses to distribute what is his document is up to him. Questions and discussion on the subject is most welcome and indeed invited.

Thank you for your opinions on the actual report above.

You'll have to forgive my latent cynicism and skepticism with all things 'internet marketing' related. There are numerous areas where your business and potential future business ventures intersect with where this advertorial is leading the 'masses'. Also that combined with the fact there are numerous links here in the body of the internet marketing text it doesn't take a neurophysiologist to figure out you may have contributed and or approved and or may be working on joint ventures together. If this isn't the case I'll stand happily corrected on that point.

Ultimately I wish Andrew luck and success with his business venture, IMB Consulting, etc.. I hope he makes a few billion euros doing it.

However, my ultimate opinion is he should come up with something new and unique as opposed to treading a path and using the same tired tools every 'internet marketer' uses to gain legitimacy and income.

Out Here.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Eduard on December 30, 2010, 09:50:10 AM
May I just quickly interject? : Andrew, you handsome devil!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Neo_007 on December 30, 2010, 09:54:10 AM
interesting read.

personally i think anything that puts HRB/RLM + AWEB and all the other letter/chat trading sites out of business can only be a good thing. they have cynically used IMBRA regs to their advantage to proclude people from exchanging their personal information in order to continue to propogate their desire to extract maximum revenues out of a highly margined low cost communication pyramid scheme. The fact their customers will now be required to get printed/checked removes at source the vast majority of keyboard romeos who prop up their incredibly cynical business model that isn't in any way focused on delivering successful outcomes for either man or woman.

Removing the "broker" element from all these relationships is a good thing - agencies need to go back to what they should be doing which is providing travel support services, translation and other services that are ancillary to the outcome of a relationship. Any business that has a vested interest in not seeing a positive outcome i.e making money from the journey not the destination is something that should be dealt with.

Legitimate agencies in local cities could easily work around these rules if it suited them - simply have all the girls post their profiles to a facebook group i.e "single Kiev Girls Looking for Love" and let direct communication between both parties ensue, then generate income from ancillary services providing translation, english lessons, apartments, transfers etc and all the stuff agencies used to do before the primary motivation became a dollars per letter / chat minute business.

This was ALWAYS a niche business for the genuine men/women involved, it was the cynical attempts of a few people to turn it into a megacorp cash generator with a low cost of product high margin that the rot set in, I definately agree with the appraisal that the industry has brought this situation to their own door. Unfortunately I know of many second/third generation matchmakers put out of business due to their refusal to comply with the suspect business practices of such letter factories and the willingness of shady businesspeople to set up in such places merely to facilitate them.

Countless heartache/tears has been generated by both men and woman due to the practices of these large operators and they have brought the whole thing into disrepute, the sooner they are put out to pasture the better.

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 09:55:23 AM
May I just quickly interject? : Andrew, you handsome devil!  :biggrin:

You may, I am complimented, but I have the good grace to NOT be flattered! I know that I have the perfect face for radio and a good voice for newspapers!  :8)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 09:55:57 AM
May I just quickly interject? : Andrew, you handsome devil!  :biggrin:

He did have that 'University lecturer' look didn't he? It was a nice touch, subtle and effective.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: leeholsen on December 30, 2010, 10:36:00 AM

looks to me like nothing new. its getting tougher, but its not dead; espicially if the 2008 recession didn't kill you financially.

and the Texas regulation supposedly has been in effect since 2003 and i have yet to have one site or agency stop to say, "wait, youre in Texas; you need to submit this or that first."

i imagine if a bring a foreign bride over, i might get a visit and/or fine from some state official; but i am quite sure there's a laywer out there somewhere thats has a standard fee to overcome any issue.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 30, 2010, 11:08:42 AM
The discussion about general internet security has been moved to Off Topic & Heated Discussion (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=12.0).

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=13335.0 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=13335.0)

Can we keep it on topic please as I expect this topic will get a lot of attention over the coming weeks.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 11:18:07 AM
"Manny,"

Did you read Andrew's document and if so what are your opinions about it's content, and other characteristics?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on December 30, 2010, 11:18:57 AM
Alright, although I did initially receive an error message last night, I downloaded the report this a.m. my time without a problem - no (much discussed) virus', spam or security issues and trust me if I can do it, anyone can. :chuckle:

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 11:23:50 AM
Alright, although I did initially receive an error message last night, I downloaded the report this a.m. my time without a problem - no (much discussed) virus', spam or security issues and trust me if I can do it, anyone can. :chuckle:

Brass

"Brass,"

What's your opinion-review of the material?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Turboguy on December 30, 2010, 12:27:02 PM
I had no trouble downloading it.  I just followed the directions and it downloaded fine. 

As far as the content, I think it principal it is fine and interesting.  I am not quite as pessimistic as Andrew about the outcome.  I do think it is a declining industry and that the improving economic conditions may make fewer women eager to leave Russia.  I think places like Latvia and the Czech Rep used to have a lot of women who wanted out and that has now changed.  I think the MOB industry may stay stronger for Asian and S. A. women.

I am not sure I agree that it will be a dead industry in a year or two.  I think it may continue to decline but I don't see it ending that fast. 

Andrew blames IMBRA.  Personally I hate IMBRA and don't think a man should have to have fingerprints and a background check to say hello to anyone, anywhere.  During the K-1 process, I have no problem with it.   However IMBRA has been with us for nearly 5 years now and it hasn't killed the MOB industry yet.   

IMBRA is intended to keep women from being beaten and murdered and yet to me if it has any effect it is the opposite.   Andrew says that according to his best info 7% of American women suffer abuse by their mate.  I would agree with that.   Andrew further states that in international marriages the figure is closer to 1%.  I would tend to agree with that as far as AM-RW marriages go.  We don't go though all the immigration crap to find a woman to beat.   I don't think there are accurate figures for marriages between RM & RW but I would bet the figure is much higher, lets say 12-15%.  So if IMBRA does cut the number of women marrying abroad by let's say 50% then there are twice as many women stuck in places where they have a 12-15% chance of being beaten or killed rather than coming here where the chances are 1%.   

Although I won't disagree with the 1% figure for domestic abuse with RW and AM I do not think that is necessarily true for Asian women and AM.  I do think there is a higher rate of potential abusers that are attracted to the more docile women from places like the Philippines. 

Andrew has been around the MOB business for a long time.  I have observed it over an even longer time myself.  When I wrote to my first RW there were not even some of the magazines specializing in RW like there were when he started.  I was there before and through the Club Prima days before the internet became a factor. 

I do think another accomplishment of IMBRA is to drive the MOB industry out of America.   For Example European Connections was an Atlanta based business doing 25 million a year.  It has now been sold and moved to Canada.  We don't want businesses in America anyway do we?   I wonder how long the few remaining US based business will be around but I do think there will be a MOB business for some time to come. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: kievstar on December 30, 2010, 12:39:26 PM
AndrewFi, left the car business as got bored.  It is a very profitable business for someone who wants to live in Kiev or Odessa and can relate with rich Ukraine men (customers).  To me profitable is more than $200,000 usd after paying all taxes. 

I like the energy business currently - an industry that makes a ton of money however companies that are run poorly.  I like fixing things and continuous improvement.  Give me a problem and it will go away. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Eduard on December 30, 2010, 12:43:15 PM
interesting read.

personally i think anything that puts HRB/RLM + AWEB and all the other letter/chat trading sites out of business can only be a good thing. they have cynically used IMBRA regs to their advantage to proclude people from exchanging their personal information in order to continue to propogate their desire to extract maximum revenues out of a highly margined low cost communication pyramid scheme. The fact their customers will now be required to get printed/checked removes at source the vast majority of keyboard romeos who prop up their incredibly cynical business model that isn't in any way focused on delivering successful outcomes for either man or woman.

Removing the "broker" element from all these relationships is a good thing - agencies need to go back to what they should be doing which is providing travel support services, translation and other services that are ancillary to the outcome of a relationship. Any business that has a vested interest in not seeing a positive outcome i.e making money from the journey not the destination is something that should be dealt with.

Legitimate agencies in local cities could easily work around these rules if it suited them - simply have all the girls post their profiles to a facebook group i.e "single Kiev Girls Looking for Love" and let direct communication between both parties ensue, then generate income from ancillary services providing translation, english lessons, apartments, transfers etc and all the stuff agencies used to do before the primary motivation became a dollars per letter / chat minute business.

This was ALWAYS a niche business for the genuine men/women involved, it was the cynical attempts of a few people to turn it into a megacorp cash generator with a low cost of product high margin that the rot set in, I definately agree with the appraisal that the industry has brought this situation to their own door. Unfortunately I know of many second/third generation matchmakers put out of business due to their refusal to comply with the suspect business practices of such letter factories and the willingness of shady businesspeople to set up in such places merely to facilitate them.

Countless heartache/tears has been generated by both men and woman due to the practices of these large operators and they have brought the whole thing into disrepute, the sooner they are put out to pasture the better.
well put, Neo. Maybe business will pick up for a guy like me (translator, wingman, adviser, consultant, logistics coordinator) who deals in reality rather than fantasy and who actually provides value and the results desired.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on December 30, 2010, 01:40:10 PM
What's your opinion-review of the material?

I pretty well concur with what Andrew has presented. Being Canadian IMBRA doesn't really effect me personally, however, immigration is tightening up in Canada as well so the agencies (based here) specifically and Canuck bride seekers in general are dealing with their own challenges.

I've posted in the past on one or two topics that the 'industry' has come up against a glass ceiling. As the laws/regulations tighten up worldwide, the agencies will either have to change how they do their business, bend the rules (possibly leaving their clients legally exposed if discovered) or be squeezed out (no longer viable).

As an observer, I'm not as optimistic as Turbo in regards to time frames or continued operations (even at a reduced or declining rate).  I believe the 'industry', at least in it's current form, will not exist in 2 years.

I read Ed's post above and again as an observer, I do not agree with him. I think when push comes to shove he is (will be) defined as a broker. We had a topic running a couple of years ago regarding interpreter/translation vs. broker/matchmaker (I'll try and find the topic and link it) and it's my (albeit layman's) opinion that IMBRA does apply to his business format.

[Edit: Found the relevent discussion starting here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,6600.msg93310.html#msg93310) ]

I think we may see in the near future agencies, tour operators, matchmakers etc. attempting to redefine themselves (a rose by any other name....), but again, if they don't fundamentally change how they're doing business, they'll leave their clients open to complications/refusal - in the US specifically, eventually worldwide in general (as other countries follow suite).

That's it for now...I have some observations on the IMBRA law/regs but need to put my thoughts together before/if I post to it.

Brass

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on December 30, 2010, 01:42:14 PM
I've only skimmed the 21-page report and will read it more completely this evening.

But at first glance, I'm not so sure I agree completely with Andrewfi's basic premise but do acknowledge it as a contributory factor in the decline of the Marriage Agency Business. 

My personal opinion is there are several factors equally as important as IMBRA and other government interference in the decline of he industry as a whole:

1)  women in the FSU have discovered that the general "quality" of western men involved in this pursuit is substandard

2)  improving economic conditions in Russia and a decline in western economies due to the current recession have made immigration to the west a less appealing choice for FSU women

3)  increased reports of scams by FSU women and FSU agencies have caused a decline in interest by western men 

4)  economic recession in the USA and Europe has caused a decline in western men able to afford the process

5)  journalism slant the sensational and overall negative experiences of this process has caused BOTH western men and FSU women to question this option as a viable alternative to selecting a future mate 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 30, 2010, 01:44:24 PM
Does IMBRA apply to agencies outside the US?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 01:53:19 PM
Brass, I think that you are right in that in a changing business, social and political environment how can businesses redefine themselves in such a manner that they can continue to profitably trade. This is something that has been on my mind because I DO agree with you that folks such as Ed, Jack and even Kevin Hayes are going to face significant challenges, some of which I would warrant they are unaware of as yet, or even if aware, are not alive to the significance of the changes - indeed I cover that in my report.

Shakes, this is about much more than IMBRA, in regulatory terms the state level legislation is a mind number but then add in other assaults on IMBs and their clients and the picture gets very murky.
Don't forget that IMBRA is not really being enforced at present but will likely become so soon as a result of Audit Office reports. I truth businesses and clients have been on a free ride for the past few years and almost certainly enjoying a false sense of security.
A lack of transparency has done much to break the trust between all parties in the IMB niche, including men and women. Management of expectations is a minimum, but largely unmet, requirement.

Muzh, given that a large part of the MOB business is paid for by people spending dollars it does not matter over much about jurisdiction. As you will have read, there are close analogies with another on-line business. The principal of extra territoriality is soon sacrificed on the altar of the 'mighty dollar'!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 30, 2010, 02:11:44 PM

Muzh, given that a large part of the MOB business is paid for by people spending dollars it does not matter over much about jurisdiction. As you will have read, there are close analogies with another on-line business. The principal of extra territoriality is soon sacrificed on the altar of the 'mighty dollar'!

Oh, I would not dismiss this little issue of jurisdiction because of the all mighty dollar. The last I saw out the window we still have an independent judicial system, f**cked up, but independent. It actually boils down to someone with cojones gigantescos or crazy enough to issue a legal challenge regarding this little issue of jurisdiction.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 02:15:57 PM

Muzh, given that a large part of the MOB business is paid for by people spending dollars it does not matter over much about jurisdiction. As you will have read, there are close analogies with another on-line business. The principal of extra territoriality is soon sacrificed on the altar of the 'mighty dollar'!

Oh, I would not dismiss this little issue of jurisdiction because of the all mighty dollar. The last I saw out the window we still have an independent judicial system, f**cked up, but independent. It actually boils down to someone with cojones gigantescos or crazy enough to issue a legal challenge regarding this little issue of jurisdiction.


Hmmm... Ask just how well that worked out for some senior managers of some other online businesses that aroused the ire of US legislators and interest groups. A few of those guys kinda wish they did not have to land in the USA.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 30, 2010, 02:21:13 PM

Muzh, given that a large part of the MOB business is paid for by people spending dollars it does not matter over much about jurisdiction. As you will have read, there are close analogies with another on-line business. The principal of extra territoriality is soon sacrificed on the altar of the 'mighty dollar'!

Oh, I would not dismiss this little issue of jurisdiction because of the all mighty dollar. The last I saw out the window we still have an independent judicial system, f**cked up, but independent. It actually boils down to someone with cojones gigantescos or crazy enough to issue a legal challenge regarding this little issue of jurisdiction.


Hmmm... Ask just how well that worked out for some senior managers of some other online businesses that aroused the ire of US legislators and interest groups. A few of those guys kinda wish they did not have to land in the USA.

Then we'd have to look for the similarities and the discrepancies, don't we?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on December 30, 2010, 02:34:38 PM


Oh, I would not dismiss this little issue of jurisdiction because of the all mighty dollar. The last I saw out the window we still have an independent judicial system, f**cked up, but independent. It actually boils down to someone with cojones gigantescos or crazy enough to issue a legal challenge regarding this little issue of jurisdiction.

While IMBRA clearly has no applicability to non-US based introduction services dealing with non-US customers, the simple fact is that by far the largest number of customers of any of these sites are in fact Americans. Thus, the jurisdiction that winds up counting is that which may restrict the ability of these U.S. citizens to participate in the activity at all. If they can be restricted from doing so effectively, the remaining market is so much smaller that it may be impossible for many of the foreign-owned firms to survive. I think that was what Andrew was driving at, too, although he is certainly capable of speaking for himself.

Personally, I regard the whole thing as a crock--but the numbers involved are so small in reality that it is highly unlikely to draw much attention from the U.S. Congress.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 30, 2010, 03:13:33 PM
Does IMBRA apply to agencies outside the US?

No it doesn't. US laws are applicable only in the US generally. However, it isn't as simple as being offshore. The majority of the English speaking market is in the US. That means wherever in the world one is, in this industry, one will deal mostly with Americans. That means US financial institutions and trading in dollars. In some circumstances the US can claim jurisdiction in overseas dollar transactions I recall reading. David may know more about that with a background in law.

The US enacted IMBRA and didn't bother to enforce it. Many states enacted their own versions and similarly ignored it. Now the wind of change is blowing. We have discussed that on other topics. The industry is unpopular with sectors of society (Tahirih Justice Group for example) that sway votes; all politicians care about. The US government can and probably will effectively make the industry illegal virtually overnight at the moment they see fit (when it is politically convenient). With worldwide effect. How will they do that? Easy. Here are a few possibilities:


The US government could do this in a matter of weeks. Will they? Informed sources I have spoke to say yes. Its only a matter of when.

In one swoop the above would stop the client flow by restricting the advertising, stop the money flow by taxation, over-regulation and lack of payment processing providers. Oh, and put most men off even trying it with extra checks, fingerprints and other onerous stuff.

I wrote that above in five minutes. Imagine what a team of legislators could write and dream up in a year or two. They have had a year or two already since IMBRA was introduced.

The industry in its current form will die.

From the ashes, a new industry will evolve. As always, you read it here first. Anyone who hasn't done already should read Andrews report. Stay tuned.  :)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 04:11:21 PM
The problem is that in general you guys chasing foreign brides and the businesses that serve you are a REALLY cheap target. I discussed this in the report, but almost any pol can get free votes off you guys because for years you did NOTHING.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: djfourmoney on December 30, 2010, 04:36:52 PM
 Thanks Andrew it works now... I'll report back.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 04:42:15 PM
Thanks Andrew it works now... I'll report back.

 :reading: :popcorn: :hidechair: :8)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on December 30, 2010, 05:04:11 PM
Andrew just a little tip to help you increase distribution of your undoubtedly masterpiece of research.  I entered my email address on your form and then then used a similar but not the same email address as entered on the form to send the confirmation email.  Yes I understand I was suppose to use the same email but I have several very similar email accounts and typos happen.   I received your email error notification in my email box.  So I tried the form again and entered my email address however your form won't let me submit because it states my IP address is already in the database. 

It would seem that anyone like me who has several similar email addresses and confuses them is going to be out of luck with regards to receiving you invaluable research material.  You seem to be making the receipt of this material unnecessarily difficult? 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 05:08:51 PM
Westy, sadly you don't get to set up multiple accounts from the same IP address. There's all sorts of reasons for that. Just login with the right addy, or the system will send you a reminder in a little while if you do nothing.

It is a very cunning system! ;)

And I DO want you to read the thing!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on December 30, 2010, 05:59:10 PM
Andrew just read your report, 5 full minutes and I wasn't even reading fast.  I personally don't think you're correct and are probably well off the mark.  As I've mentioned more than once, I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times and I'm sure any sources that you've used have also been there once or twice, however your report deals exclusively about the RUSSIAN bride business and mentions no other aspect of the international marriage business.

The Russian bride business is a small portion of the international marriage business.  The Asian bride business is far larger than the Russian bride business, certainly in Canada and the US, and probably in the EU and the UK.  This also doesn't include the market for other areas of the world such as the India and other countries in south central Asia.  I think you will find if you do some research into the Asia bride business you will find it far more vibrant and not at all with the same worries as the Russian bride business.  Of course since I live in Canada so I really don't have any worries about IMBRA or any other American legislation in this area.  I also don't believe that Canada would follow suit with legislation mirroring anything brought in by the US government. 

Your comments about online gambling were somewhat true and did result in banning banks and credit card companies from transferring payments to gambling websites.  However the issue is being revisited by the US Congress.  U.S. Senator Harry Reid, once an opponent of online gambling is pushing a bill that would legalize online gambling.  Will it pass before the end of the lame duck Congress, who knows but with the current economic conditions in the US, I'm sure the issue will be revisited if research finds it generates taxable income.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/5468-harry-reid-pushing-to-legalize-online-gambling 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 30, 2010, 06:02:38 PM
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times 

Westy, Andrew lives in the FSU, and has done for a number of years. Less than 200 miles from St Petersburg FWIW.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 06:02:49 PM
Just for giggles here are some numbers.. from the American Bar Association (http://new.abanet.org/domesticviolence/Pages/Statistics.aspx) which used primary source material for their 'numbers'.
Quote
Prevalence of Domestic Violence

Immigrants

    * A recent study in New York City found that 51 percent of intimate partner homicide victims were foreign-born, while 45 percent were born in the United States.

          New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, Femicide in New York City: 1995-2002 (2004), available at http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/ip/femicide1995-2002_report.pdf

    * 48% of Latinas in one study reported that their partner's violence against them had increased since they emmigrated to the United States.

          Mary Dutton et al., Characteristics of Help-Seeking Behaviors, Resources, and Services Needs of Battered Immigrant Latinas: Legal and Policy Implications, 7 Geo. J. on Poverty L. and Pol'y 245 (2000).

    * A survey of immigrant Korean women found that 60 percent had been battered by their husbands.

          Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm

    * Married immigrant women experience higher levels of physical and sexual abuse than unmarried immigrant women, 59.5 percent compared to 49.8 percent, respectively.

          Mary Dutton et al., Characteristics of Help-Seeking Behaviors, Resources, and Services Needs of Battered Immigrant Latinas: Legal and Policy Implications, 7 Geo. J. on Poverty L. and Pol'y 245 (2000).

          See also, Family Violence Prevention Fund, The Facts on Immigrant Women and Domestic Violence (2006), http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/Immigrant.pdf


Teens

    * 18-24 year-olds comprised only 11.7% of the population in 1998 and 2002, but were the majority of victims of violence committed by a boyfriend or girlfriend (42%).

          Matthew R. Durose et al., U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 207846, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Family Violence Statistics: Including Statistics on Strangers and Acquaintances, at 11 (2005), available at http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fvs.pdf

    * Approximately one in five female high school students reports being physically and/or sexually abused by a dating partner.

          Jay G. Silverman et al., Dating Violence Against Adolescent Girls and Associated Substance Use, Unhealthy Weight Control, Sexual Risk Behavior, Pregnancy, and Suicidality, 286 J. Am. Med. Ass'n 572-579 (2001).

    * In a study of eighth and ninth graders, 25 percent indicated that they had been victims of dating violence, including eight percent who disclosed being sexually abused.

          Vangie A. Foshee et al., The Safe Date Project: Theoretical Basis, Evaluation Design, and Selected Baseline Findings, 12 Am. J. of Preventive Med. 39 (1996).

    * In a survey of 232 high school girls, 17.8% of the participants indicated that they had been forced to engage in sexual activity against their will by a dating partner.

          David R. Jezl, Christian E. Molidor & Tracy L. Wright, Physical, Sexual & Psychological Abuse in High School Dating Relationships: Prevalence Rates and Self-esteem Issues, 13 Child & Adolescent Soc. Work J. 69 (1996).

    * Among female students between the ages of 15-20 who reported at least one violent act during a dating relationship, 24% reported experiencing extremely violent incidents such as rape or the use of weapons against them.

          P.Y. Symons et al., Prevalence and Predictors of Adolescent Dating Violence, 7 J. of Child & Adolescent Pediatric Nursing 14 (1994).

    * Girls who reported that they had been sexually or physically abused were more than twice as likely as non abused girls to report smoking (26% versus 10%), drinking (22% versus 12%), and using illegal drugs (30% versus 13%). In addition, 32 percent of girls who had been abused reported bingeing and purging, compared to 12 percent of girls who had not been abused.

          Cathy Schoen et al., The Commonwealth Fund, The Commonwealth Fund Survey of the Health of Adolescent Girls (1997).

    * In a study of 724 adolescent mothers between the ages of 12-18, one of every eight pregnant adolescents reported having been physically assaulted by the father of her baby during the preceding 12 months. Of these, 40 percent also reported experiencing violence at the hands of a family member or relative.

          Constance M. Wiemann et al., Pregnant Adolescents: Experiences and Behaviors Associated with Physical Assault by an Intimate Partner, 4 Maternal & Child Health J. 93 (2000).

    * Physical aggression occurs in 1 in 3 teen dating relationships.

          Sarah Avery-Leaf & Michele Cascardi, Dating Violence Education: Prevention and Early Intervention Strategies, in Preventing Violence in Relationships 82 (Paul A. Schewe ed., 2002).

    * Fifty to eighty percent of teens report knowing someone involved in a violent relationship.

          Maura O'Keefe & Laura Trester, Victims of Dating Violence Among High School Students, 4 Violence Against Women 195 (1998).

          See also Family Violence Prevention Fund, The Facts on Teenagers and Intimate Partner Violence, http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/Teenagers.pdf (2006); and National Center for Victims of Crime, Teen Dating Violence Sheet, http://www.ncvc.org/dvrc (2004).


Elders

    * According to the best available estimates, between 1 and 2 million Americans age 65 or older have been injured, exploited, or otherwise mistreated by someone on whom they depended for protection.

          Committee on Nat'l Statistics & Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education, Elder Mistreatment: Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation in an Aging America (Richard J. Bonnie & Robert B. Wallace eds., 2003).

    * Estimates of the frequency of elder abuse range from 2% to 10% based on various sampling, survey methods, and case definitions.

          Mark S. Lachs & Karl Pillemer, Elder Abuse, 364 The Lancet 1192 (2004).

    * Data on elder abuse in domestic settings suggest that 1 in 14 incidents, excluding incidents of self-neglect, come to the attention of authorities.

          Karl Pillemer & David Finkelhor, The Prevalence of Elder Abuse: A Random Sample Survey, 28 The Gerontologist 51 (1988).

    * Current estimates put the overall reporting of financial exploitation at only 1 in 25 cases, suggesting that there may be at least 5 million financial abuse victims each year.

          John F. Wasik, The Fleecing of America's Elderly, Consumers Digest, March/April 2000.

    * It is estimated that for every one case of elder abuse, neglect, exploitation, or self neglect reported to authorities, about five more go unreported.

          National Ctr. on Elder Abuse, The Am. Pub. Hum. Serv. Ass'n, The National Elder Abuse Incidence Study (1998), available at www.aoa.gov/eldfam/Elder_Rights/Elder_Abuse/ABuseReport_Full.pdf

    * In 1996, nearly 450,000 adults aged 60 and over were abused and/or neglected in domestic settings. Factoring in self neglect, the total number of incidents was approximately 551,000.

          National Ctr. on Elder Abuse, The Am. Pub. Hum. Serv. Ass'n, The National Elder Abuse Incidence Study (1998), available at www.aoa.gov/eldfam/Elder_Rights/Elder_Abuse/ABuseReport_Full.pdf

    * A University of Iowa study based on 1999 data found 190,005 domestic elder abuse reports from 17 states; 242,430 domestic elder abuse investigations from 47 states; and 102,879 substantiations from 35 states. Significantly higher investigation rates were found for states that require mandatory reporting and tracking of reports.

          Gerald J. Jogerst et al., Domestic Elder Abuse and the Law, 93 Am. J. of Pub. Health 2131 (2003).

    * In 2000, states were asked to indicate the number of elder/adult reports received in the most recent year for which data were available. Based on figures from 54 states, the total number of reports was 472,813.

          Pamela B. Teaster, The Nat'l Ctr. On Elder Abuse, et al., A Response to the Abuse of Vulnerable Adults: The 2000 Survey of State Adult Protective Services (2003).

    * In 2003, state Long Term Care Ombudsman programs nationally investigated 20,673 complaints of abuse gross neglect, and exploitation on behalf of nursing home and board and care residents. Among seven types of abuse categories, physical abuse was the most common type reported.

          U.S. Admin. on Aging, National Ombudsman Reporting System Data Tables (2003).

          See also Nat'l Ctr. on Elder Abuse, Fact Sheet: Elder Abuse Prevalence and Incidence, http://www.elderabusecenter.org/pdf/publication/FinalStatistics050331.pdf (2005).


Same-Sex Violence

Domestic violence occurs within same-sex relationships as it does in heterosexual relationships. The acronym LGBT is often used and stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender.

    * 11% of lesbians reported violence by their female partner and 15% of gay men who had lived with a male partner reported being victimized by a male partner.

          Patricia Tjaden, Symposium on Integrating Responses to Domestic Violence: Extent and Nature of Intimate Partner Violence as measured by the National Violence Against Women Survey, 47 Loy. L. Rev. 41, 54 (2003).

    * Of the LGBT victims who sought services from the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project, 36% of clients in 2003 and 38% of clients in 2004 filed police reports regarding intimate partner violence.

          Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 6 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.

    * Eighty-eight percent of victims in 2003 and 91 percent of victims in 2004 reported experiencing prior incidents of abuse, with the majority (45 percent and 47 percent, respectively) reporting having experienced more than 10 prior incidents.

          Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.

    * One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime.

          Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm

    * 15.4% of same-sex cohabiting men reported being raped, physically assaulted and/or stalked by a male partner, but 10.8% reported such violence by a female partner.

          Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm


According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs:

    * 6,523 incidence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender violence were recorded in eleven distinct cities and regions across the USA and Toronto, Ontario. 44% of the victims were men and 36% were women. This represented a 13% increase over the 5718 cases reported in 2002 by the same agencies and includes six reported deaths in the context of actual or suspected LGBT violence. Arizona reported one death and New York City reported five deaths.
    * 4,964 or about 79% of the new incidents were reported in Los Angeles. The number of LGBT incidents in other cities and states include Boston (290), New York City (501), San Francisco (388), Colorado (139) , Chicago (65), Columbus, Ohio (46) , Pennsylvania (19) , Burlington, Vermont (21), Tuscon (64).
    * 5,374 (82%) of the victims of domestic violence reported to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs identified themselves as gay; 575 (9%) were cases in which the victim declined to specify a sexual orientation or it was not recorded; 263 (4%) identified as bisexual; and 44 (0.6 %) were not sure or questioned their sexual orientation.
    * Of the 42% incidence of domestic violence where race was recorded, 1,211 or 44% were white, 684 or 25% were Latino, 413 or 15% were of African descent, 153 or 5% were Asian/Pacific Islander, 125 or 4% were multicultural; just under 36 or 0.01% were indigenous/first people and about 0.01 were Arab/Middle Easterners, Jewish and others.

          Nat'l Advoc. for Local Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Communities, Nat'l Coal. of Anti-Violence Programs, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Domestic Violence: 2003 Supplement - An Update from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (2004), at 3-8, 10, available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/reports.htm

Welfare Recipients

    * Studies consistently show that at least 50 to 60 percent of women receiving public benefits have experienced physical abuse by an intimate partner at some point during their adult lives, compared to 22 percent of the general population; some studies indicate rates as high as 82 percent. A significant number of women receiving public benefits also report a history physical and sexual abuse in childhood, and as many as 30 percent of women on public benefits report abuse in a current relationship

          Richard Tolman and Jody Raphael, A Review of the Research on Welfare and Domestic Violence, 56 J. of Soc. Iss. 655 (2000); Sharmila Lawrence, Research Forum on Children, Families, and the New Federalism, National Center for Children in Poverty, Domestic Violence and Welfare Policy: Research Findings That Can Inform Policies on Marriage and Child Well-Being, Issue Brief (2002); Eleanor Lyon, Building Comprehensive Solutions to Domestic Violence, Publ'n No. 10, Welfare, Poverty and Abused Women: New Research and Its Implications, (2000).

    * In a recent study of two California counties (Kern and Stanislaus) public benefits recipients had lifetime abuse rates of 80 percent and 83 percent, respectively.

          Joan Meisel, Daniel Chandler & Beth Menees Rienzi, Domestic Violence Prevalence and Effects on Employment in two California TANF Populations, 9 Violence Against Women 1191 (2003).

    * A Wisconsin study found that 70 percent of domestic violence victims on public benefits did not disclose abuse to their caseworker.

          Thomas Moore & Vicky Selkowe, Institute for Wisconsin's Future, Domestic Violence Victims in Transition from Welfare to Work: Barriers to Self-Sufficiency and the W-2 Response (1999).

          See also Family Violence Prevention Fund, The Facts on Welfare and Domestic Violence, http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/Welfare.pdf (last visited August 13, 2006).

Domestic Violence And The Workplace

    * Of the approximately 1.7 million incidents of workplace violence that occur in the US every year, approximately 18,700 (1.1 percent) are committed by an intimate: current or former spouse, lover, partner, or boyfriend/girlfriend.

          Detis T. Duhart, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 190076, Violence in the Workplace 1993-99, Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report (2001) available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/vw99.pdf.

    * Some abusive partners may try to stop women from working by calling them frequently during the day or coming to their place of work unannounced. Research indicates that about 50 percent of battered women who are employed are harassed at work by their abusive partners.

          U.S. Gen. Accounting Office, GAO/HEHS-99-12, Domestic Violence: Prevalence and Implications for Employment Among Welfare Recipients (1998), available at www.gao.gov/archive/1999/he99012.pdf


According to a 2004 Maine study:

    * Over three-quarters of offenders used workplace resources at least once to express remorse or anger, check up on, pressure, or threaten the victim.
    * 74% had easy access to their intimate partner's workplace, with 21% of offenders reporting that they contacted her at the workplace in violation of a no contact order.
    * 48% of offenders had difficulty concentrating at work, with 19% of offenders reporting a workplace accident or near miss from inattentiveness due to pre-occupation with their relationship.
    * 42% of offenders were late to work.

          Kim C. Lim et al., Maine Department of Labor and Family Crisis Services, Impact of Domestic Violence Offenders on Occupational Safety & Health: A Pilot Study (2004), available at http://www.state.me.us/labor/labor_stats/publications/dvreports/domesticoffendersreport.pdf

          See also Corporate Alliance to End Partner Violence, Facts and Statistics: Workplace Statistics, http://caepv.org/getinfo/facts_stats.php?factsec=3 (last visited Aug. 12, 2006)

Offender Recidivism

According to a 2000 study which interviewed the former and current partners of male batterers referred to batterer programs by the court:

    * 41% of participants reported that the men committed a re-assault during the 30-month follow-up period.
    * Nearly 2/3 of the first time re-assaults occurred in the first 6 months.
    * About 20 percent of the men repeatedly re-assaulted their partners and account for most of the reported injuries.

          Edward Gondolf, Reassault at 30-Months after Batterer Program Intake, 44 Int'l J. of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology 111 (2000), available at http://www.iup.edu/maati/publications/outcomeabstracts.shtm#outcome4

In an examination of 1,309 cases under a program mandate at the Bronx misdemeanor domestic violence court:

    * 8% of the defendants were rearrested between the initial arrest and case disposition, 35% during the program mandate period, 31% during the one year following the end of the mandate and 44% during the two years following the mandate.
    * Overall, from the moment of index arrest to two years post release, 62 % of all defendants were rearrested.

          Nora K. Puffett & Chandra Gavin, Ctr. for Ct. Innovation, Predictors of Program Outcome and Recidivism at the Bronx Misdemeanor Domestic Violence Court (2004), available at http://www.courtinnovation.org/_uploads/documents/predictorsbronxdv.pdf



Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 06:06:10 PM
Also see here: http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/
Quote
Domestic violence

One in four women (25%) has experienced domestic violence in her lifetime.
(The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and The National Institute of Justice, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence, July     2000. The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, 1999)

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend to 3 million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.
(U.S. Department of Justice, Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, March 1998. The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, 1999)

Women accounted for 85% of the victims of intimate partner violence, men for approximately 15%.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003)

Between 600,000 and 6 million women are victims of domestic violence each year, and between 100,000 and 6 million men, depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data.
(Rennison, C. (2003, Feb).  Intimate partner violence.  Us. Dpt. of Justice/Office of Justice Programs.  NXJ 197838.
Straus, M. & Gelles, R. (1990).  Physical violence in American families.  New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers.
Tjaden, P., & Thoennes, N. (2000).  Extent, nature, and consequences of intimate partner violence.  National Institute of Justice, NCJ 181867.)

Women ages 20-24 are at the greatest risk of nonfatal intimate partner violence.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

Between 1993 and 2004, intimate partner violence on average made up 22% of nonfatal intimate partner victimizations against women. The same year, intimate partners committed 3% of all violent crime against men.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

Separated and divorced males and females are at a greater risk of nonfatal intimate partner violence.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

Women of all races are about equally vulnerable to violence by an intimate partner.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, August 1995)

Average annual rates of intimate partner victimization between 1994 and 2004 are approximately the same for non-Hispanic and Hispanic females and males.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

Intimate partner violence affects people regardless of income. However, people with lower annual income (below $25K) are at a 3-times higher risk of intimate partner violence than people with higher annual income (over $50K).*
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
*Please note that those with less resources are more likely to report incidents of violence

On average between 1993 and 2004, residents of urban areas experienced highest level of nonfatal intimate partner violence. Residents in suburban and rural areas were equally likely to experience such violence, about 20% less than those in urban areas.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

Nearly 2.2 million people called a domestic violence crisis or hot line in 2004 to escape crisis situations, seek advice, or assist someone they thought might be victims.
(National Network to End Domestic Violence)

Studies show that access to shelter services leads to a 60-70% reduction in incidence and severity of re-assault during the 3-12 months’ follow up period compared to women who did not access shelter. Shelter services led to greater reduction in severe re-assault than did seeking court or law enforcement protection, or moving to a new location.
(Campbell, JC, PhD, RN, FAAN. Anna D. Wolf, Johns Hopkins University School of Nursing, Protective Action and Re-assault: Findings from the RAVE study.)

Nearly three out of four (74%) of Americans personally know someone who is or has been a victim of domestic violence. 30% of Americans say they know a woman who has been physically abused by her husband or boyfriend in the past year.
(Allstate Foundation National Poll on Domestic Violence, 2006. Lieberman Research Inc., Tracking Survey conducted for The Advertising Council and the Family Violence Prevention Fund, July – October 1996)

Domestic violence homicides

On average, more than three women and one man are murdered by their intimate partners in this country every day. In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner. Intimate partner homicides accounted for 30% of the murders of women and 5% percent of the murders of men.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003. Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

Most intimate partner homicides occur between spouses, though boyfriends/girlfriends have committed about the same number of homicides in recent years.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

The health-related costs of intimate partner violence exceed $5.8 billion each year. Of that amount, nearly $4.1 billion are for direct medical and mental health care services, and nearly $1.8 billion are for the indirect costs of lost productivity or wages.
(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States, April 2003.)

About half of all female victims of intimate violence report an injury of some type, and about 20 percent of them seek medical assistance.
(National Crime Victimization Survey, 1992-96; Study of Injured Victims of Violence, 1994)

Thirty-seven percent of women who sought treatment in emergency rooms for violence-related injuries in 1994 were injured by a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend.
(U.S. Department of Justice, Violence Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments, 1997)

Some bedside reading:
Intimate Partner Violence and Age of Victim Provides estimates of violence by intimates (current or former spouses, girlfriends, and boyfriends) with an emphasis on the victim's age using the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), 1993-99.    10/28/2001    NCJ 187635

Domestic and Sexual Violence Data Collection: A Report to Congress under the Violence Against Women Act Reports how States and the Federal government collect data on the incidence of sexual and domestic violence offenses.    7/1/1996    NCJ 161405

Profile of Intimate Partner Violence Cases in Large Urban Counties Examines the characteristics and processing of 3,750 cases of intimate partner violence, filed in the state courts of 16 large urban counties in May 2002.    10/21/2009    NCJ 228193
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 06:12:23 PM
Eric, I KNOW it is hard for you to do anything other than lists, but how many of those DV cases or studies are relevant? To whit, how many were marriages mediated between US citizens and foreign women (particularly from the FSU) and specifically mediated through IMB's?
How do they relate to the population of the US as a whole?
How do they compare to same nationality marriages in the US?

If you go back and read what I wrote you may find that in among your splurge of copy/paste are some generalised numbers that are relevant AND supportive of what I wrote. ;)

Research is generally about finding data and interpreting it. There are few prizes for the longest list; if there were, you just won a prize, of some kind...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 30, 2010, 06:14:25 PM
Lastly this one (Assisting Immigrant Victims of Domestic Violence Law Enforcement Guide (PDF))from 2010 would probably have suited our resident internet marketer best in his research and given him more primary source info for his 'analysis' as it's a USDOJ publication from 2010 <http://www.vaw.umn.edu/categories/1,8>

Battered Women's Justice Project

This law enforcement guide will explore various immigration laws and terms that officers need to know, examine the challenges immigrant victims face navigating the justice system and identify how officers can protect and assist immigrant crime victims while managing their enforcement role. (http://www.vaw.umn.edu/documents/immigrantdvleguide/immigrantdvleguide.pdf)
added 03/03/2010
Formats: PDF

Assisting Immigrant Victims of Domestic Violence Prosecutor's Guide (PDF) (http://www.vaw.umn.edu/documents/assistingimmigrantdvprosecutor/assistingimmigrantdvprosecutor.pdf)
Battered Women's Justice Project

"This guide is intended to give a brief overview of the issues prosecutors should consider when handling cases involving immigrant victims. The guide explores relevant laws, challenges immigrant crime victims face in navigating the justice system, and identifies how prosecutors can most effectively proceed with cases involving immigrant crime victims."
added 03/07/2010

This second version and similar text for prosecutors. http://www.vaw.umn.edu/documents/assistingimmigrantdvprosecutor/assistingimmigrantdvprosecutor.pdf
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 30, 2010, 06:20:00 PM
Westy, I wrote what I wrote with a decent understanding and knowledge of the online gaming situation. You should know me well enough by now to understand that I keep command of my data and facts.
  :8)

Time will likely suggest that the analogy I drew is more apposite than you could have imagined when you wrote your post above. ;)

History tends to repeat, especially for those who do not know history!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on December 30, 2010, 07:00:33 PM
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times 

Westy, Andrew lives in the FSU, and has done for a number of years. Less than 200 miles from St Petersburg FWIW.

Manny my understanding is that Andrew lives in the EU, in Estonia.  Estonia may not be quite as comfortable and law abiding as England or Germany but it is a far different country from Russia.  In Russia where Putin phones up the cops and tells them who to arrest.   

You might say to yourself that it's still a FSU country with Russians living there and still has that old time Soviet feel to the country.  Well you'd be wrong.  I know you have a house in Estonia and live there part of the year but if you're saying Estonia is still Russian in its style of government than research by some very smart and talented people says you're wrong.

Transparency International measures perceived levels of corruption in the public sector around the world.  If you take a look at the supplied link you will see that Estonia is 26th out of 178 countries (higher number is more corrupt).  Russia is 154th out of 178.  To give you some idea of how "clean" or not corrupt Estonia is the country just ahead of Estonia at 25 is France.  Estonia is actually less corrupt than Spain (#30) or Italy (#67) or Portugal (#32).  Russia on the other hand is ranked similar to Democratic Republic of the Congo (#164), Kenya (#154) or Tajikistan (#154).   

No matter how you look at it Estonia is not Russia not even close, Andrew lives in the EU.  In fact he lives in one of the less corrupt countries of the EU.   Another factor against his research is that he has stated, as you have, that he has lived in Estonia for years, yet speaks little or no Russian or Estonian.  Not exactly a good expat trying to integrate into the local community and understand the local culture. 

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: djfourmoney on December 30, 2010, 07:01:05 PM
 Well, to be honest I felt that the industry as we currently know and understand it was going to deal with some overzealous law makers at some point. I also understand the general expense and uncertainty of it all doesn't help from a client's perspective.

 I don't know what the answer is or will be. All I know is that I was already considering removing all bride tour sites from the equation, bring the cost and mistakes closer to home. Since mistakes such as making the wrong choice can be very expensive, it puts more pressure to get it right the first time.

 There are ways of having open communication without involving IMBRA at all, sites operated outside the US sphere of influence or by definition "social networking" sites and unaffected by such laws. You'll just have to do most of the work yourself. If you're a busy individual this is likely not the best way to go about it but there will remain smaller matchmaker services like Ed's and others might shift in this direction to serve a well paid clientele. For the rest of us, we'll just have to use low cost web sites, search for discounted air fare, getting all visa paperwork finished and using technology as best we can to keep that vital communication link open.

 The above is not however for the person that has never left his own city/town/berg, let alone his own country and THAT person likely is going to be a causality of the coming changes to this industry.

 What premise I don't buy however is this specter of the majority of the women involved in this are dishonest and possible prostitutes (like you would know that before hand anyway) the so-called "Dirty Barrel" theory. Are your rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago? Sure, but what about the "Dirty Barrel" theory in your own backyard?

 How many Western Women are honest brokers? Those only on Plenty of Fish and not Match.com?

 Let's look at online dating in North America for a moment. Beyond Andrew mentioning it being a billion dollar industry, powered mostly by men I should add, women have a huge advantage here. Some studies claim there's a 5-1 ratio men to women on popular web sites such as Match, Plenty of Fish, Okay Cupid, etc. Dating sites are mostly populated with women over the age of 30, many with children from a previous relationship.

 I don't think I have to tell you how the pickings are out there, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

 So which is worst?

 Having to "settle" for a neurotic women approaching menopause quickly especially if she smokes or a woman with 1,2, sometimes 3,4 children from previous relationships. Or a woman that's One and Done for mental or physical reasons.
 
 That is the reality of men over 30 in America. For those men willing to compromise on such things, they might find some happiness as not all of these women are bitchy, terrible people. But I have met some form of all the above and I don't find that appealing at all.

 What's left?

 As I have said before, if you have to have your hand-held through the process then its likely going to get more expensive and before it dies, if you fancy Eastern European women I see that drying up sooner than going to South America or Asia. Almost no organized tours go to places like Russia and that's not an accident, rumors that Andrew has mentioned plus the unfair view of Russians in general in Western Culture cast a shadow of doubt over the whole thing. Plus the fact that you don't have to pay visa fees to enter Ukraine, Moldova, etc or far flung places like Uzbekistan have cheaper fees, all spells doom for the industry as a whole to continue going to Russia, so most of them simply just don't go.

 For self-starting, enterprising folks, you can do this without the industry's invisible hand guiding you.

 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 30, 2010, 07:08:03 PM
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times 

Westy, Andrew lives in the FSU, and has done for a number of years. Less than 200 miles from St Petersburg FWIW.

Manny my understanding is that Andrew lives in the EU, in Estonia.  Estonia may not be quite as comfortable and law abiding as England or Germany but it is a far different country from Russia.  In Russia where Putin phones up the cops and tells them who to arrest.   

You might say to yourself that it's still a FSU country with Russians living there and still has that old time Soviet feel to the country.  Well you'd be wrong.  I know you have a house in Estonia and live there part of the year but if you're saying Estonia is still Russian in its style of government than research by some very smart and talented people says you're wrong.

Transparency International measures perceived levels of corruption in the public sector around the world.  If you take a look at the supplied link you will see that Estonia is 26th out of 178 countries (higher number is more corrupt).  Russia is 154th out of 178.  To give you some idea of how "clean" or not corrupt Estonia is the country just ahead of Estonia at 25 is France.  Estonia is actually less corrupt than Spain (#30) or Italy (#67) or Portugal (#32).  Russia on the other hand is ranked similar to Democratic Republic of the Congo (#164), Kenya (#154) or Tajikistan (#154).   

No matter how you look at it Estonia is not Russia not even close, Andrew lives in the EU.  In fact he lives in one of the less corrupt countries of the EU.   Another factor against his research is that he has stated, as you have, that he has lived in Estonia for years, yet speaks little or no Russian or Estonian.  Not exactly a good expat trying to integrate into the local community and understand the local culture. 

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010

Westy, Estonia is most certainly FSU (former Soviet Union). It shares a border with Russia, has at least a third ethnic Russians still there, Russian is a major language there, and Tallinn is 100 miles from the Russian border at Narva.

You have noted already that we live there part time, Andrew lives there full time, and you have never been ANYWHERE in the FSU. Yet, YOU think you can tell me about Estonia? I first went there thirteen years ago and I am able to compare it to Russia as I have been there countless times also; my wife is from Russia.

You are simply not qualified to lecture me about Estonia and the FSU from your armchair and some Googling. To continue will only make you look even more foolish.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on December 30, 2010, 07:12:31 PM
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times 

Westy, Andrew lives in the FSU, and has done for a number of years. Less than 200 miles from St Petersburg FWIW.

Manny my understanding is that Andrew lives in the EU, in Estonia.  Estonia may not be quite as comfortable and law abiding as England or Germany but it is a far different country from Russia.  In Russia where Putin phones up the cops and tells them who to arrest.   

You might say to yourself that it's still a FSU country with Russians living there and still has that old time Soviet feel to the country.  Well you'd be wrong.  I know you have a house in Estonia and live there part of the year but if you're saying Estonia is still Russian in its style of government than research by some very smart and talented people says you're wrong.

Transparency International measures perceived levels of corruption in the public sector around the world.  If you take a look at the supplied link you will see that Estonia is 26th out of 178 countries (higher number is more corrupt).  Russia is 154th out of 178.  To give you some idea of how "clean" or not corrupt Estonia is the country just ahead of Estonia at 25 is France.  Estonia is actually less corrupt than Spain (#30) or Italy (#67) or Portugal (#32).  Russia on the other hand is ranked similar to Democratic Republic of the Congo (#164), Kenya (#154) or Tajikistan (#154).   

No matter how you look at it Estonia is not Russia not even close, Andrew lives in the EU.  In fact he lives in one of the less corrupt countries of the EU.   Another factor against his research is that he has stated, as you have, that he has lived in Estonia for years, yet speaks little or no Russian or Estonian.  Not exactly a good expat trying to integrate into the local community and understand the local culture. 

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010

Westy, Estonia is most certainly FSU (former Soviet Union). It shares a border with Russia, has at least a third ethnic Russians still there, Russian is a major language there, and Tallinn is 100 miles from the Russian border at Narva.

You have noted already that we live there part time, Andrew lives there full time, and you have never been. Yet, YOU think you can tell me about Estonia? I first went there thirteen years ago and I am able to compare it to Russia as I have been there countless times also; my wife is from Russia.

You are simply not qualified to lecture me about Estonia and the FSU from your armchair and some Googling. To continue will only make you look even more foolish.

Manny I'm not lecturing you on Estonia, Transparency International is.  I'm just paraphrasing the content of Transparency International and pointing out the source material to you. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: 2tallbill on December 30, 2010, 07:14:10 PM

My personal opinion is there are several factors equally as important as IMBRA and other government interference in the decline of he industry as a whole:

1)  women in the FSU have discovered that the general "quality" of western men involved in this pursuit is substandard
 

If you consider that most men will write letters but never visit then I agree.
If you consider the men who actually get on a plane then I disagree. I think
it closer to 60-40 or 50-50. I would say a little less than  half are pathetic
losers and the other slightly more than half are solid individuals. Of course
this is only my opinion and doubt there is any way to quantify the percentage
of losers to solid individuals.

Just my two kopecks,

Bill
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: мcs on December 30, 2010, 07:41:02 PM
One thing I will admit is that I am not a professional on this subject. Being new to the whole scheme of things maybe I can add just a small tidbit to this conversation. Before I came to this site I was almost scammed by someone in the UA. I have learned alot just by reading and trying to take away as much info as I can before I go to meet a women I have been conversing with for a few months now.
Being Canadian I do agree with Westy that such legislation will not directly affect me. However, I do believe that it will over time. In fact the disappearance of a Fiancee Visa here in Canada can be evidence of such immigration reforms. There may very well be some truth to Andrew's thesis, however I believe that more time is needed to prove it to be true. On the other hand, could this be the chumming of the waters that he made reference to? I guess time will only tell.

Smitty
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on December 30, 2010, 09:41:12 PM
If you consider that most men will write letters but never visit then I agree.
If you consider the men who actually get on a plane then I disagree. I think
it closer to 60-40 or 50-50. I would say a little less than  half are pathetic
losers and the other slightly more than half are solid individuals. Of course
this is only my opinion and doubt there is any way to quantify the percentage
of losers to solid individuals. 

I was considering ALL western men that these women have come in contact with in the process of seeking an international marriage.  That would include all the Keyboard Romeos, Sex Tourists, Picky Cheapskates, Control Freaks, Social Misfits, Internet Dirty Picture Seekers and Undercapitalized Idiots.  They're contact with the universe of willing FSU females that would consider seeking an international marriage has increased the callousness of FSU woman against participating in this venture.

As to the percentage of losers that get on a plane; my agency contacts would tell you that the number of losers is closer to 80%
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: khersongirls on December 30, 2010, 10:00:19 PM
I have the option of transferring the agency into my in-laws name. Then I would have to worry about the ladies in the US Government.  I could still ensure my clients meet all requirement for the ladies to get their visa's and not harass the clients with inappropriate request.

I expect to see many agencies ownership transferring this year.

There has been no attacks in match.com or eharmony ect.. as most of them are exempt from IMBRA rules even though they have plenty of Russian/Ukraine ladies profiles.  I expect that after a while they will become a target.

Kevin
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on December 30, 2010, 10:03:36 PM
After reading Andrewfi's treatise I'd have to say that I agree with most of what he is trying to convey.  I would also agree with Eric that if he submitted this as a term paper for a college level course, his grade would probably be a C- or less.

The best analogy I can think of would be to compare the FSU Foreign Marriage Agency to a bullfight.  All the points I raised in my post up thread would be like picadores and banderillas that weakened the bull (IMB Industry) so that all that is left is the finishing tandas (IMBRA rules) to the already weakened animal by the matador to finish the fight.

I would agree with the consensus that marriage agencies that service the Asian and South American market are different because in the case of Russia, it is no longer economically depressed (Ukraine and certain other FSU republics still are economically depressed).

Concerning Estonia, I've been there twice and it is my observation that national laws applied to native Estonians are quite a bit different that laws applied to ethnic Russians remaining in that country.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that third party ratings that clearly apply to the former can be equally applied to the later.     
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on December 30, 2010, 10:30:28 PM
Five posts removed - Trolling (3rd instance), [edit: 2 ] out of context and inflammatory respectively.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on December 30, 2010, 10:49:06 PM

Are your rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago? Sure, but what about the "Dirty Barrel" theory in your own backyard?

How would you--or anyone else--know whether the "rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago?"

Speaking as someone who was actually around this scene ten years ago, I strongly doubt that. If anything, I'd think it would be the reverse...but I also cannot prove it with any sort of reliability beyond my impressions at the time compared to what I see being discussed today.



Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Sculpto on December 30, 2010, 11:22:59 PM
excellent post!!  Thanks!

interesting read.

personally i think anything that puts HRB/RLM + AWEB and all the other letter/chat trading sites out of business can only be a good thing. they have cynically used IMBRA regs to their advantage to proclude people from exchanging their personal information in order to continue to propogate their desire to extract maximum revenues out of a highly margined low cost communication pyramid scheme. The fact their customers will now be required to get printed/checked removes at source the vast majority of keyboard romeos who prop up their incredibly cynical business model that isn't in any way focused on delivering successful outcomes for either man or woman.

Removing the "broker" element from all these relationships is a good thing - agencies need to go back to what they should be doing which is providing travel support services, translation and other services that are ancillary to the outcome of a relationship. Any business that has a vested interest in not seeing a positive outcome i.e making money from the journey not the destination is something that should be dealt with.

Legitimate agencies in local cities could easily work around these rules if it suited them - simply have all the girls post their profiles to a facebook group i.e "single Kiev Girls Looking for Love" and let direct communication between both parties ensue, then generate income from ancillary services providing translation, english lessons, apartments, transfers etc and all the stuff agencies used to do before the primary motivation became a dollars per letter / chat minute business.

This was ALWAYS a niche business for the genuine men/women involved, it was the cynical attempts of a few people to turn it into a megacorp cash generator with a low cost of product high margin that the rot set in, I definately agree with the appraisal that the industry has brought this situation to their own door. Unfortunately I know of many second/third generation matchmakers put out of business due to their refusal to comply with the suspect business practices of such letter factories and the willingness of shady businesspeople to set up in such places merely to facilitate them.

Countless heartache/tears has been generated by both men and woman due to the practices of these large operators and they have brought the whole thing into disrepute, the sooner they are put out to pasture the better.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on December 30, 2010, 11:31:06 PM
Seems a determined attack by the usual suspects tonight. My Kung Fu is stronger though. :chuckle:

9 subsequent posts removed trolling, 1 post removed inflammatory, 1 post out of context.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Sculpto on December 30, 2010, 11:33:33 PM
another excellent post

Andrew just read your report, 5 full minutes and I wasn't even reading fast.  I personally don't think you're correct and are probably well off the mark.  As I've mentioned more than once, I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times and I'm sure any sources that you've used have also been there once or twice, however your report deals exclusively about the RUSSIAN bride business and mentions no other aspect of the international marriage business.

The Russian bride business is a small portion of the international marriage business.  The Asian bride business is far larger than the Russian bride business, certainly in Canada and the US, and probably in the EU and the UK.  This also doesn't include the market for other areas of the world such as the India and other countries in south central Asia.  I think you will find if you do some research into the Asia bride business you will find it far more vibrant and not at all with the same worries as the Russian bride business.  Of course since I live in Canada so I really don't have any worries about IMBRA or any other American legislation in this area.  I also don't believe that Canada would follow suit with legislation mirroring anything brought in by the US government. 

Your comments about online gambling were somewhat true and did result in banning banks and credit card companies from transferring payments to gambling websites.  However the issue is being revisited by the US Congress.  U.S. Senator Harry Reid, once an opponent of online gambling is pushing a bill that would legalize online gambling.  Will it pass before the end of the lame duck Congress, who knows but with the current economic conditions in the US, I'm sure the issue will be revisited if research finds it generates taxable income.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/5468-harry-reid-pushing-to-legalize-online-gambling
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on December 31, 2010, 12:21:32 AM
The Internet is unfortunately full of various ebooks written in the same sort of breathless prose, marketed with the same sort of hype, and often just as empty of specific references. It all seems to be out of the same "You can make money on the Internet by marketing information!" playbook.

Unfortunately, that kind of approach can mask some extremely timely and useful information.

I believe it is quite true that there are those who want to do everything possible to shut down the international marriage scene as we have known it in the past--and folks in Washington who have shown they don't much mind curtailing the rights of citizens in the U.S. to lead their own lives as they see fit.

There are several factors weighing in against being able to do much of anything effective against this as it applies to international mate seeking:

1) Those who are actually pursuing this are in reality very few in number. If you doubt this, look at the actual numbers of K1 and I130 visa applications each year. You may be surprised at how small they are in reality.

2) The people in the business are far too disorganized to mount any truly effective counter offensive that would matter much to the various government entities involved.

3) Actually doing anything effective that would in fact curb the abuses is difficult if not impossible, so instead the rather foolish shotgun approach is used in the hopes the entire industry will just go away. In that, they may well be correct.

Still, in my view it helps very little to clothe an argument in all the trappings of "Internet marketing"--if one is actually trying to be taken very seriously. Of course, the counter argument might be that without this kind of blatant approach it would be more difficult to have the argument noticed by most folks.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bones on December 31, 2010, 03:15:02 AM
If you consider that most men will write letters but never visit then I agree.
If you consider the men who actually get on a plane then I disagree. I think
it closer to 60-40 or 50-50. I would say a little less than  half are pathetic
losers and the other slightly more than half are solid individuals. Of course
this is only my opinion and doubt there is any way to quantify the percentage
of losers to solid individuals. 

I was considering ALL western men that these women have come in contact with in the process of seeking an international marriage.  That would include all the Keyboard Romeos, Sex Tourists, Picky Cheapskates, Control Freaks, Social Misfits, Internet Dirty Picture Seekers and Undercapitalized Idiots.  They're contact with the universe of willing FSU females that would consider seeking an international marriage has increased the callousness of FSU woman against participating in this venture.

As to the percentage of losers that get on a plane; my agency contacts would tell you that the number of losers is closer to 80%
I have no way of knowing for certain, but I sense that the sorry figure shakespear  gives of 80% losers may be worse now than say 10 years ago.  As someone that had made some forays into the scene back then and having another try at it now I’d guess it has gotten worse just by the sort of questions and responses I’ve received in my recent personal experiences compared to the ones back then. For example, some thought (such as the one I’m meeting in 2 weeks) it amazing that I am really making all the travel, lodging arrangements, details etc myself and she would only have to meet me at the airport & spend time with me. Others seemed overly concerned that I would only write and waste their time.  Others skeptical when I referred to our first meeting as only a relaxed “get to know you first date”. In other words I first have to reassure them that I am not a complete loser! It used to be, it seemed to me, that it was only a matter of whether or not a man could take care of his woman once a committed relationship is established. The whole feel is definitely different now.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 31, 2010, 03:59:26 AM
Thanks for some very interesting posts while I was sleeping.

Don't underestimate the value of a no cost vote winner.
As I noted, every restriction on the part of state and federal legislators on the ability of MEN to marry foreign WOMEN is going to be a vote winner with probably half the US population and the cost? No more than the cost of printing the documents.
You guys and the businesses that want to support you in the US and externally are under threat because as a common interest group you did nothing for years and years.

The on-line dating business is growing by leaps and bounds and there is no evidence to support the contention that the market for 'Mail Order Brides' is not following the same course - at least from the perspective of the paying clients - MEN.
Some service providers are having problems with the supply side - the women for all sorts of reasons, some covered in my report.
Some service providers are already feeling the pinch of stock supply and regulation. This is why we are seeing the rise of supply side aggregators.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Eduard on December 31, 2010, 07:02:15 AM
If you consider that most men will write letters but never visit then I agree.
If you consider the men who actually get on a plane then I disagree. I think
it closer to 60-40 or 50-50. I would say a little less than  half are pathetic
losers and the other slightly more than half are solid individuals. Of course
this is only my opinion and doubt there is any way to quantify the percentage
of losers to solid individuals. 

I was considering ALL western men that these women have come in contact with in the process of seeking an international marriage.  That would include all the Keyboard Romeos, Sex Tourists, Picky Cheapskates, Control Freaks, Social Misfits, Internet Dirty Picture Seekers and Undercapitalized Idiots.  They're contact with the universe of willing FSU females that would consider seeking an international marriage has increased the callousness of FSU woman against participating in this venture.

As to the percentage of losers that get on a plane; my agency contacts would tell you that the number of losers is closer to 80%
I have no way of knowing for certain, but I sense that the sorry figure shakespear  gives of 80% losers may be worse now than say 10 years ago.  As someone that had made some forays into the scene back then and having another try at it now I’d guess it has gotten worse just by the sort of questions and responses I’ve received in my recent personal experiences compared to the ones back then. For example, some thought (such as the one I’m meeting in 2 weeks) it amazing that I am really making all the travel, lodging arrangements, details etc myself and she would only have to meet me at the airport & spend time with me. Others seemed overly concerned that I would only write and waste their time.  Others skeptical when I referred to our first meeting as only a relaxed “get to know you first date”. In other words I first have to reassure them that I am not a complete loser! It used to be, it seemed to me, that it was only a matter of whether or not a man could take care of his woman once a committed relationship is established. The whole feel is definitely different now.
Bones, sounds like you only have been experiencing contact with "mailorder brides" and not much (orany) of the general population RW... The attitudes and conversations you are describing are not the norm.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 31, 2010, 07:09:41 AM
Bones and Ed, have you guys both read Andrews report? What do you think about it?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on December 31, 2010, 07:45:55 AM
Quote
2)  improving economic conditions in Russia and a decline in western economies due to the current recession have made immigration to the west a less appealing choice for FSU women

But economic conditions are not the only reason women look elsewhere. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 31, 2010, 08:18:47 AM
Quote
2)  improving economic conditions in Russia and a decline in western economies due to the current recession have made immigration to the west a less appealing choice for FSU women

But economic conditions are not the only reason women look elsewhere.

Of course not but the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the process is probably a reflection of the depth of colour in your rose coloured spectacles.

AND

As many women will tell you, they can marry a poor guy in their home town.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on December 31, 2010, 08:33:32 AM
Quote
Of course not but the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the process is probably a reflection of the depth of colour in your rose coloured spectacles.

AND

As many women will tell you, they can marry a poor guy in their home town.

Since you seem to not be able to read you should note I said it was not the ONLY reason.  There are no rose coloured glasses on here I am just not the pessimist you are.  I have heard many other reasons to look outside Russia...instability, corruption, social inequality.  Reasons to look at a western man...perceived as better family men, different culture that values woman more.  And yes...economics can come into the equation as well but they are not the singular cause.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 31, 2010, 08:43:37 AM
Froid, I can read, you missed the point. I am not a fool and so would NEVER suggest that economics is the sole reason for a person to choose to emigrate.
BUT
While there are many reasons a woman might choose to leave her community to go live with a relative stranger the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the mix, in your opinion, will be conditioned by the depth of tint of your rose coloured specs.

To be honest, if you actually look at the other reasons you suggested, most are actually about the allocation of resources - economics.

But as you did not list 'love' in there, I think that on some level you get the point.

Love is a self actualization factor and so is usually only sought when all other subsidiary aspects of life have been harmoniously dealt with. This is why men from what they perceive as being the 'richer' societies expect love and the women they meet might HOPE for love, but only after the other necessities of life - food, shelter, work, security etc have been dealt with.

When a woman can meet her needs locally then she has no need to travel and risk her life elsewhere in order to obtain them and THAT is economics.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on December 31, 2010, 08:56:56 AM
Quote
While there are many reasons a woman might choose to leave her community to go live with a relative stranger the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the mix, in your opinion, will be conditioned by the depth of tint of your rose coloured specs.

To be honest, if you actually look at the other reasons you suggested, most are actually about the allocation of resources - economics.

But as you did not list 'love' in there, I think that on some level you get the point.

Still not reading eh?  You will note I did not at any time specify my opinion as to the degree that economics might be in the mix.  I merely added to the mix. 

Anyway I am done with this thread...it only makes me feel like I am swimming IN the dirty barrel is all.  When will you be upgrading your account to "commercial member"?  Since you are obviously now involved in the marketing of information about the international marriage broker business I think regular members should be warned. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 31, 2010, 09:07:53 AM
Good point on the Commercial Member designation for 'Andrewfi', 'Froid'. That appears to be something that has been overlooked by the forum staff'.

I don't think there is any doubt about the fact that there are some men and women who approach this endeavor to gain and or exploit their potential mark for solely 'MEE' reasons and or gain. That being said that with some effort and due diligence even a half wit can find a good sincere lady to correspond with and explore a relationship.

For the those that can't even manage to come up with 'half a wit'... We'll 'you just can't fix stupid'.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 31, 2010, 09:11:59 AM
Good point on the Commercial Member designation for 'Andrewfi', 'Froid'. That appears to be something that has been overlooked by the forum staff'.

A "Commercial Member" is usually one who seeks to sell you something. Andrew is giving you a free report. There is no commercial transaction taking place between you and he. He isn't selling you anything. You are not buying anything from him. Where is the "commercial" element to that?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ste on December 31, 2010, 09:19:02 AM
Good point on the Commercial Member designation for 'Andrewfi', 'Froid'. That appears to be something that has been overlooked by the forum staff'.

A "Commercial Member" is usually one who seeks to sell you something. Andrew is giving you a free report. There is no commercial transaction taking place between you and he. He isn't selling you anything. You are not buying anything from him. Where is the "commercial" element to that?

A valid email address?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 31, 2010, 09:32:20 AM

Are your rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago? Sure, but what about the "Dirty Barrel" theory in your own backyard?

How would you--or anyone else--know whether the "rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago?"

Speaking as someone who was actually around this scene ten years ago, I strongly doubt that. If anything, I'd think it would be the reverse...but I also cannot prove it with any sort of reliability beyond my impressions at the time compared to what I see being discussed today.


As you well know David, I was around at about the same time and I disagree that it was worse back then. Of course I don't have any raw data, just my observations.

Keep in mind that 10+ years ago women were not that jaded. This was all new to them and they responded to the WM the same way they would to the RM. If they didn't liked a guy they would tell him "keep walking." As this phenomenon became more popular in the west, many men took to heart the "shopping cart" attitude of buying his "property." This is very ingrained into the Protestant work ethics.

With time they adjusted based on what they perceived was WM's naivete and IMHO the cynicism of RW towards WM is at an all time high.

No data. Just MHO.

I doubt the IMB industry is going to dissapear. As DJ4$ mentioned earlier: (I still cannot insert a damn quote)

Quote
There are ways of having open communication without involving IMBRA at all, sites operated outside the US sphere of influence or by definition "social networking" sites and unaffected by such laws. You'll just have to do most of the work yourself. If you're a busy individual this is likely not the best way to go about it but there will remain smaller matchmaker services like Ed's and others might shift in this direction to serve a well paid clientele. For the rest of us, we'll just have to use low cost web sites, search for discounted air fare, getting all visa paperwork finished and using technology as best we can to keep that vital communication link open.

Ten years ago this whole thing was just as DJ discribed it, low cost websites, etc. What may happen is that as more netbooks and desktops make their way into these women's houses they might band together and develop their own web page. I saw this ten years ago. That's how I met my wife.


Quote
The above is not however for the person that has never left his own city/town/berg, let alone his own country and THAT person likely is going to be a causality of the coming changes to this industry.

Absolutely correct.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on December 31, 2010, 09:32:40 AM
I also don't believe that Canada would follow suit with legislation mirroring anything brought in by the US government. 

Why would they. Canada already tightened up the laws years ago. First Canada got rid of the fiancé visas a decade-or-so ago and a few years ago they made it necessary to prove that you had a legitimate relationship when the spouse applied for permanent residence. Now, they are trying to clamp down on marriages of convenience. They could bar the sponsoring of spouses altogether, but that IMHO would drive away votes from large immigrant communities so I can't see that happening any time soon.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 31, 2010, 09:37:22 AM

He isn't selling you anything.

Bzzzz, wrong.


You are not buying anything from him.

Absolutely correct.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 31, 2010, 09:42:12 AM
Muzh, when I have something to sell you I will let you know. I asked for a valid email address in order to be able to notify all interested parties when the next document becomes available. I REALLY don't want to have to track everybody down. This is not the only place in the world, you guys are NOT the centre of the universe and I do not want to waste my time. You don't want to get these documents then don't sign up. SIMPLES

Rasputin, you are correct, the same forces are at work in places other than the Home of the Brave. The timing and implementations may vary slightly but the processes are very similar.

Complacency is what has allowed the MOB niche to get itself into this trouble. Changing a name or an address will not make the troubles go away.

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 31, 2010, 09:43:58 AM
Muzh, when I have something to sell you I will let you know. I asked for a valid email address in order to be able to notify all interested parties when the next document becomes available. I REALLY don't want to have to track everybody down. This is not the only place in the world, you guys are NOT the centre of the universe and I do not want to waste my time. You don't want to get these documents then don't sign up. SIMPLES

Rasputin, you are correct, the same forces are at work in places other than the Home of the Brave. The timing and implementations may vary slightly but the processes are very similar.

Complacency is what has allowed the MOB niche to get itself into this trouble. Changing a name or an address will not make the troubles go away.

For such a literati, it just flew over your head.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on December 31, 2010, 09:46:24 AM
There has been no attacks in match.com or eharmony ect.. as most of them are exempt from IMBRA rules even though they have plenty of Russian/Ukraine ladies profiles.  I expect that after a while they will become a target.

The numbers are simply too big. What are the stats now? I have read that 31% of Americans either have used an internet-dating site or know someone who has used a site. If you were to try and clamp down on online dating that could lead to a lot of people who will have an ax to grind and that may hurt in the next elections...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on December 31, 2010, 09:50:37 AM
Quote
Of course not but the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the process is probably a reflection of the depth of colour in your rose coloured spectacles.

AND

As many women will tell you, they can marry a poor guy in their home town.

Since you seem to not be able to read you should note I said it was not the ONLY reason.  There are no rose coloured glasses on here I am just not the pessimist you are.  I have heard many other reasons to look outside Russia...instability, corruption, social inequality.  Reasons to look at a western man...perceived as better family men, different culture that values woman more.  And yes...economics can come into the equation as well but they are not the singular cause.

Well said Froid  tiphat
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 31, 2010, 10:12:44 AM
"Manny,"

How can this be taken as anything other than a come on ad to promote a future pay for services routine. I'll point your attention to page 18 of the advetorial Andrew put out 'for free'. Also i'm sure you'll note there are all sorts of companies that pay for ads and materials with the sole purpose of direction your attention and currency to their products and services. As a practitioner of this very marketing strategy yourself I don't believe for a second the concept is 'lost' on you or is 'foreign' in any way.


Quote
-- Copyrighted material removed by mods after complaint --


Let's look at another comment....

Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?

Because that is how I want to do it.
This is not the only place that has an interest in the 'mail order bride' business

But wait here is yet another reference to future reports and a hint about services to come...


Quote from: Andrew
I think that you are right in that in a changing business, social and political environment how can businesses redefine themselves in such a manner that they can continue to profitably trade. This is something that has been on my mind because I DO agree with you that folks such as Ed, Jack and even Kevin Hayes are going to face significant challenges, some of which I would warrant they are unaware of as yet, or even if aware, are not alive to the significance of the changes - indeed I cover that in my report.

and

Quote from: Andrewfi
Brass, I think that you are right in that in a changing business, social and political environment how can businesses redefine themselves in such a manner that they can continue to profitably trade. This is something that has been on my mind because I DO agree with you that folks such as Ed, Jack and even Kevin Hayes are going to face significant challenges, some of which I would warrant they are unaware of as yet, or even if aware, are not alive to the significance of the changes - indeed I cover that in my report.

Shakes, this is about much more than IMBRA, in regulatory terms the state level legislation is a mind number but then add in other assaults on IMBs and their clients and the picture gets very murky.
Don't forget that IMBRA is not really being enforced at present but will likely become so soon as a result of Audit Office reports. I truth businesses and clients have been on a free ride for the past few years and almost certainly enjoying a false sense of security.
A lack of transparency has done much to break the trust between all parties in the IMB niche, including men and women. Management of expectations is a minimum, but largely unmet, requirement.


Seems pretty clear to me that even though services and fees haven't been clearly defined as of yet, they are coming and certainly the marketing and Andrew's own words clearly are pointing in that direction....

Things that make you go hmm....
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on December 31, 2010, 10:21:39 AM
Seems pretty clear to me that even though services and fees haven't been clearly defined as of yet, they are coming and certainly the marketing and Andrew's own words clearly are pointing in that direction....

Things that make you go hmm....

So, even if this is true, doesn't your keyboard have a "delete" key?  What's the big deal?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 31, 2010, 10:27:28 AM
Seems pretty clear to me that even though services and fees haven't been clearly defined as of yet, they are coming and certainly the marketing and Andrew's own words clearly are pointing in that direction....

Things that make you go hmm....

So, even if this is true, doesn't your keyboard have a "delete" key?  What's the big deal?


How about the number of other new and existing members that have been threatened with TOS disciplinary action as a result of their failure to disclose commercial interests either when they joined or as they 'got in the business'. Examples of this and warnings exist and can be easily found using the sites search function.

it certainly appears 'irregular' that staff and the admin would regularly go after others and do their utmost to ensure members who have commercial interests are clearly defined and yet seem to be quite lethargic and lackadaisical in their action and response in regards to Andrews emerging and self admission of commercial intrest 'in the business'. That's how it appears....
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on December 31, 2010, 10:35:38 AM
it certainly appears 'irregular' that staff and the admin would regularly go after others and do their utmost to ensure members who have commercial interests are clearly defined and yet seem to be quite lethargic and lackadaisical in their action and response in regards to Andrews emerging and self admission of commercial intrest 'in the business'. That's how it appears....

While I can't say for sure, I would be willing to guess that if and when Andrewfi actually starts to sell a product his status will be upgraded accordingly. 

What's he selling now Eric?  He's giving away a free report.  How does that make him a commercial member?  Your protests are really premature. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on December 31, 2010, 10:36:09 AM
Eric when I want you to reproduce copyright material of mine I will ask you.

Now even YOU can see why I choose to distribute as I have!

Forget about this forum's rules, this is unacceptable even from somebody like you.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 31, 2010, 10:48:38 AM
it certainly appears 'irregular' that staff and the admin would regularly go after others and do their utmost to ensure members who have commercial interests are clearly defined and yet seem to be quite lethargic and lackadaisical in their action and response in regards to Andrews emerging and self admission of commercial intrest 'in the business'. That's how it appears....

While I can't say for sure, I would be willing to guess that if and when Andrewfi actually starts to sell a product his status will be upgraded accordingly. 

What's he selling now Eric?  He's giving away a free report.  How does that make him a commercial member?  Your protests are really premature.


He's 'giving away' and marketing services to be 'named in the future'. Additionally this is the first attempt at creating a demand for 'services and products to be announced' as noted and stated in his own words. Additionally, does any business market or expend time and effort to bring attention to a service or product without having it?

"Shakespear," I find it hard to believe someone as business savvy as yourself can't clearly see what is wide spread and oft used business and advertising tactic. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 31, 2010, 10:51:03 AM
Eric when I want you to reproduce copyright material of mine I will ask you.

Now even YOU can see why I choose to distribute as I have!

Forget about this forum's rules, this is unacceptable even from somebody like you.


The source text and material was quoted and credit was given to the author and source using internationally accepted means of doing so. Furthermore you made it available to the public as part of your marketing campaign and you're just upset it didn't go quite as 'swimmingly' as you imagined it would.

I'd recommend you do some basic research before 'crying foul'. Additionally there is an error in the forum coding and software and that has been brought publicly and privately to the attention of the staff.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on December 31, 2010, 10:52:34 AM
"Shakespear," I find it hard to believe someone as business savvy as yourself can't clearly see what is wide spread and oft used business and advertising tactic.

I also understand that a person is not "guilty" of doing something until he actually does it. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 31, 2010, 10:58:26 AM
"Shakespear," I find it hard to believe someone as business savvy as yourself can't clearly see what is wide spread and oft used business and advertising tactic.

I also understand that a person is not "guilty" of doing something until he actually does it.

His words clearly are promoting his 'to be announced' vision and solution to the issue. Just because he hasn't released it publicly, or announced exact details does not mean it does not exist. He clearly says it does when he states multiple times that he has and is refining a 'solution' to the problems, etc...

It's not all that difficult really.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on December 31, 2010, 10:58:49 AM
First, let me say that I am not automatically adverse to anyone seeking to make an honest buck. I may not like some of the strategies involved--and I can and do avoid some "opportunities" because of that.

Second, I rather strongly doubt that Andrew is a philanthropist. If he had no commercial aspirations for his "free" report--WHY WOULD HE BE PAYING PEOPLE TO DIRECT OTHERS TO IT?

Sorry, but to maintain with a straight face that he is not "commercial" because he has not yet let the shoe drop despite all his hints seems to be absurd.

Again, please note: I am *NOT* faulting Andrew for wanting to capitalize on what he views as an opportunity.

One the the hints he drops so often might be his recurring references to the introduction business being in trouble because they have "not been organized." I suspect rather strongly that one potential part of his strategy is to offer just that sort of "organization".

The question, though, that has not been addressed is whether all of his representations of products and services to come he is, in fact, in the early but definite states of being indeed a commercial member. Just because his paid products are not yet offered but he is building a mail list and doing the preliminary spadework for just such a commercial interest--does that make him any less than "in the business" who should in fact be so designated here?

Sorry, but again I think a double standard is operating where Andrew is concerned. I think that is the basis for those who have wondered whether Manny is involved somewhat behind the scenes.

David

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: мcs on December 31, 2010, 10:59:44 AM
Easy Fellas!!!! When I subscribed to Andrew's web site I do not recall having to do so with a credit card!!

If at some point a credit card is needed then I will stop subscribing to that particular information.  :dh: :'(

Any way I do agree with Rasputin when he has stated that Canada has already tightened its immigration rules. However I do not think it's intent was to stop the MOB process. It was more to stop the marriages of convenience, the subsequent obtaining of Canadian citizenship, then you have what seems to be 3 generations of families being sponsored once the marriage fell through.

I believe Westy's point he was trying to make was the fingerprinting, mug shots etc. won't b Incorporated in Canada. IMHO

Smitty
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on December 31, 2010, 11:01:37 AM
The administration and staff should restore the quoted text you removed as it violates no laws and or policies and the source material was quoted and denotated, and credited appropriately and per internationally accepted academic and legal standards for quoting source material as part of a literary discourse.

For the ignorant they can find the applicable information by researching 'Fair use'
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on December 31, 2010, 11:17:20 AM
I also don't believe that Canada would follow suit with legislation mirroring anything brought in by the US government. 

Why would they. Canada already tightened up the laws years ago. First Canada got rid of the fiancé visas a decade-or-so ago and a few years ago they made it necessary to prove that you had a legitimate relationship when the spouse applied for permanent residence. Now, they are trying to clamp down on marriages of convenience. They could bar the sponsoring of spouses altogether, but that IMHO would drive away votes from large immigrant communities so I can't see that happening any time soon.

You (two) are not taking into consideration the strength of the lobbyists. Type in any keywords regarding Canadian immigration, women and marriage and you'll find half the results on the first page will take you to human trafficking, scam alerts, slavery, abuse, MOBs (defined in the worst possible terms), marriage fraud and other sites/organizations/government resources dedicated to 'educate' or 'inform' .

The 'special interest' societies/organizations/government departments for the most part dominate any discussion/reference to immigration for the purpose of marriage. These lobby groups/societies are powerful, well funded and employ the same tactics as their US counterparts in petitioning our politicians/governments to further their agendas (not necessarily a bad thing but still happening nonetheless).

As to the power of the immigrant voter - Immigrant voters historically have the lowest turnout at the polls. Further, they seem to vote Liberal and we all know how well they've done the last two elections. However, recent polls now suggest that even the immigrants are not for more immigration, which might suggest that  where a government to implement further restrictions (on immigration through marriage), there wouldn't be a backlash from the already existing immigrant population anyways.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on December 31, 2010, 11:19:47 AM
I believe Westy's point he was trying to make was the fingerprinting, mug shots etc. won't b Incorporated in Canada. IMHO

The main difference between Canada and the USA is that once a woman has been given her PR card, there is nothing compelling her to stay with her husband. Just as long as she doesn't dump him at the airport, she is pretty much free to leave at any point and she will be able to keep her PR status and file for citizenship even if she is separated or divorced....
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: мcs on December 31, 2010, 11:28:18 AM
Is that not what brought about the legislation in the states. Many women, not all, were forced to stay in abusive relationships to gain residency status? Or am I out to lunch on this one?

Smitty
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on December 31, 2010, 11:31:28 AM
there wouldn't be a backlash from the already existing immigrant population anyways.

I am sure the mother or grandmother of the fine lad (or occasionally lass) who is no longer able to sponsor his (or her) spouse would say otherwise  :-X

According to The Star, there are 45,000 or so spouses sponsored each year in Canada: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/836957--fastest-way-to-get-to-canada-marriage?bn=1 (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/836957--fastest-way-to-get-to-canada-marriage?bn=1) and some one thousand cases of reported frauds (spouses getting married to get their permanent residence card). Of those 1,000, The Star estimates that "70 per cent of the cases are from South Asia" (i.e. India). If their numbers are correct, this represents roughly between a quarter and a fifth of all immigrants that come to Canada. Barring the sponsoring of spouses would lead to some rancor.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 31, 2010, 11:33:47 AM
The administration and staff should restore the quoted text you removed as it violates no laws and or policies and the source material was quoted and denotated, and credited appropriately and per internationally accepted academic and legal standards for quoting source material as part of a literary discourse.

For the ignorant they can find the applicable information by researching 'Fair use'

Eric, no parts of that report will be republished here without Andrews consent. That's it. I spend enough of my time taking action against others that steal my and/or this forums copyright, I will not see it done here to others. Quote all the quasi laws you want till you are blue in the face for all I care.  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on December 31, 2010, 11:36:27 AM
Is that not what brought about the legislation in the states. Many women, not all, were forced to stay in abusive relationships to gain residency status? Or am I out to lunch on this one?

Smitty

If I understand American law correctly after reading these forums these past few years, the way a woman can get her 10-year green card and eventual citizenship if she doesn't stay with her husband for those two years is by demonstrating domestic violence. The Americans on this forum can correct me if I am wrong. This, of course, creates an incentive to claim domestic abuse even if there was none....
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on December 31, 2010, 11:42:45 AM
If I understand American law correctly after reading these forums these past few years, the way a woman can get her 10-year green card and eventual citizenship if she doesn't stay with her husband for those two years is by demonstrating domestic violence. The Americans on this forum can correct me if I am wrong. This, of course, creates an incentive to claim domestic abuse even if there was none....

That is one way.  It's not as easy or automatic as some of these forums might make it seem.  It was one of those "supposed truths" that originated in the Russian community and spread from RW to RW who over time assumed it was true.  I believe statistics will show an approval rate of about 65% for those that use the I-360 procedure. 

The more "normal" way would be to self-petition for removal of conditional status.  If submitted timely, that is virtually always approved.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on December 31, 2010, 12:03:01 PM
I am sure the mother or grandmother of the fine lad (or occasionally lass) who is no longer able to sponsor his (or her) spouse would say otherwise  :-X

It's a factor for sure. But prohibition (for lack of a better term) is not the same as gradually making the process so difficult/lengthy that for practical purposes it becomes virtually untenable.

Quote from: Misha
According to The Star, there are 45,000 or so spouses sponsored each year in Canada: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/836957--fastest-way-to-get-to-canada-marriage?bn=1 (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/836957--fastest-way-to-get-to-canada-marriage?bn=1) and some one thousand cases of reported frauds (spouses getting married to get their permanent residence card). Of those 1,000, The Star estimates that "70 per cent of the cases are from South Asia" (i.e. India). If their numbers are correct, this represents roughly between a quarter and a fifth of all immigrants that come to Canada. Barring the sponsoring of spouses would lead to some rancor.

Again agreed. I just don't think this matters though (for those opposed or involved with trying to increase/strengthen the laws/regs). All these bad things that these people/organizations say are happening is to some degree happening out there. What may come to pass is the majority of honest/real marriage/immigration apps will get caught up in the effort to catch the minority of illegal/scam apps (imo).

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on December 31, 2010, 12:14:55 PM
I am sure the mother or grandmother of the fine lad (or occasionally lass) who is no longer able to sponsor his (or her) spouse would say otherwise  :-X

It's a factor for sure. But prohibition (for lack of a better term) is not the same as gradually making the process so difficult/lengthy that for practical purposes it becomes virtually untenable.

Which is pretty much what Canada has been doing for the last decade or so. Fifteen years ago, for example, it was much more common to meet Russian women with a Canadian husband/sponsor. Now, it has become increasingly rare...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on December 31, 2010, 12:24:55 PM
ECR, it's gotten to the point now that your derailing this topic and on the wrong side of the ToS. You've made your critique of Andrew's submition a page or two back. Now let others discuss the subject matter at hand.  :)

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Noname on December 31, 2010, 12:44:43 PM
I have read the 21 page report but only 2 pages of this discussion and so my questions might already of been answered. I am a British citizen living in the UK, how does all this happening in the USA affect me ? I currently have a Russian girlfriend and if things do not work out between us i will simply go back to the website "allsinglerussiangirls" and find someone else. How do these US laws affect this website (allsinglerussiangirls) as i do not think it is foreign owned ?
       I also read in the report that the amount of women seeking a foreign husband is decreasing and the amount of men seeking a foreign bride is increasing. I personally have found the opposite happening since the world financial crisis or more women seeking a foreign husband because times are hard again and less men seeking a foreign wife because they can not afford to. Maybe some of the agency owners on this forum can answer this one.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: B.B. on December 31, 2010, 12:55:33 PM
The problem is that in general you guys chasing foreign brides and the businesses that serve you are a REALLY cheap target. I discussed this in the report, but almost any pol can get free votes off you guys because for years you did NOTHING.


This is dead on.  IMBRA and similar state laws provide the pols the opportunity to flex in front of a favored constituency (i.e. Feminist groups), at the expense of a disfavored and comparatively infinitely weaker group, lewzers who seek foreign brides (e.g. guys like us).  It is terribly important for pols to look like they are "Doing Something!" and this sort of thing is enacted with little/no regard to pesky things like the Bill of Rights, as part of the US Gov'ts ongoing program of "Citizen Harassment."

B/B
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on December 31, 2010, 01:42:01 PM
The problem is that in general you guys chasing foreign brides and the businesses that serve you are a REALLY cheap target. I discussed this in the report, but almost any pol can get free votes off you guys because for years you did NOTHING.


This is dead on.  IMBRA and similar state laws provide the pols the opportunity to flex in front of a favored constituency (i.e. Feminist groups), at the expense of a disfavored and comparatively infinitely weaker group, lewzers who seek foreign brides (e.g. guys like us).  It is terribly important for pols to look like they are "Doing Something!" and this sort of thing is enacted with little/no regard to pesky things like the Bill of Rights, as part of the US Gov'ts ongoing program of "Citizen Harassment."

B/B

Or maybe it is because there are a ton of them and very few of you.

Again how many AM, percentage wise in relation to the population in general, are looking abroad for a wife versus the "femenists?"

Not to extrapolate but how many times do you read in the papers/news that a wife beat the sh*t out of her husband or killed her husband in front of the children versus the opposite?

I can hear the gallery now asking for a lynching. But before you light up the torches, what is the percentage of the men commiting these barbaric acts in relation to the population?

So in reallity I have to agree with Andrew (gasp!) that the fault lies in the men's shoulders for not organizing and educating the same pols that the femenist educated.

So what are we doing here? Discuss this topic  :dh: and then what?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on December 31, 2010, 02:00:42 PM
I am a British citizen living in the UK, how does all this happening in the USA affect me ? I currently have a Russian girlfriend and if things do not work out between us i will simply go back to the website "allsinglerussiangirls" and find someone else. How do these US laws affect this website (allsinglerussiangirls) as i do not think it is foreign owned ?

The owner of "allsinglerussiangirls" is Grebnev Nikolay from SoftEnergo, Saint-Petersburg... in fact, these guy own 36 different sites related to Russian dating/marriage...

Since you are in UK and the business is located in Russia, these topic don't really concern you...

What can maybe happen is that the increase of expense for the agency due to the US laws will lead to a general increase of price for all customer... after all, around 50% of the males seeking a Russian bride are from US...

Business will adapt and customer will adapt... nothing will really die !!!

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on December 31, 2010, 03:21:17 PM
I am a British citizen living in the UK, how does all this happening in the USA affect me?

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

~ Pastor Martin Niemöller


Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on December 31, 2010, 07:33:49 PM
I am a British citizen living in the UK, how does all this happening in the USA affect me ? I currently have a Russian girlfriend and if things do not work out between us i will simply go back to the website "allsinglerussiangirls" and find someone else. How do these US laws affect this website (allsinglerussiangirls) as i do not think it is foreign owned ?

The owner of "allsinglerussiangirls" is Grebnev Nikolay from SoftEnergo, Saint-Petersburg... in fact, these guy own 36 different sites related to Russian dating/marriage...

Since you are in UK and the business is located in Russia, these topic don't really concern you...

What can maybe happen is that the increase of expense for the agency due to the US laws will lead to a general increase of price for all customer... after all, around 50% of the males seeking a Russian bride are from US...

Business will adapt and customer will adapt... nothing will really die !!!

Bruno who hasn't posted in three and a half years!

Welcome back Bruno!  tiphat  :party0031:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: curiogeo7 on December 31, 2010, 10:20:58 PM

MUZH,
 If you look it up NAZI, is short for National socialist party.
 So yes one can and do have both.
 But please don't take my word for it, look it up. :offtopic:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on December 31, 2010, 10:31:43 PM
I really, really hate chicken little, sky is falling marketing campaigns.  nuf said about that . . .


Regarding the so called Texas Statute which incidentally was originally filed in 2002 and became law in 2003; I asked a Harris County Assistant DA that handles DV cases that I've worked with in the past when I served as a Court Appointed Child Advocate about this 'law.'

Her first reaction was, "Never heard of it."  So I gave her the cite and she got back with me.

Basically, her response was, never knew it was there, we've never used it, why was it even enacted??  what's it for??   Special interests strikes again.


So, shoulda, coulda woulda.  .  .  Maybe the sun will come up tomorrow, maybe it won't . . .

Anybody can suppose anything can happen.  This industry isn't dead and isn't going away in spite of whatever marvelous new paradigm someone dreams up.


and back to the 'Texas Statute;' there have been literally dozens and dozens of Texas men (hundreds?) who've connected with foreign brides.  NONE have supplied the requirements of this law, and up until now, no one knew it existed.  Going forward, none will know as well.  And who cares?  Who's gonna enforce it when the prosecutors don't even know it's on the books!  Even IMBRA doesn't require a background check.

It's been over 8 years since that particular chicken little went running around squawking the sky is falling . . .   and since then, nothing has came of it . . .


Big deal.  Buncha hype about nothing . . .


-david


Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on December 31, 2010, 10:48:46 PM
Manny,

Regarding your question:
"Why is this pamphlet been published now? See below.  "

in the locked thread: "The Mail Order Bride Industry and IMBRA is Changing! (At least for Americans)."


LOL!!  You really don't know how our government works do you?  This is the pamphlet that was supposed to have been published when the law went into effect!  It's in the IMBRA law.  You have to read the WHOLE law, not just the sensational bits and pieces, it sets out requirements for others as well, not just the marriage agencies.   See our 'wonderful' *cough* *cough* bureaucracy is, well, lets just say moss moves faster . . .

Nothing sinister about publication now . . .  It's just a measure of how incompetent they are!  (Slow!)



-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 01, 2011, 12:09:26 AM
Bruno who hasn't posted in three and a half years!

Welcome back Bruno!  tiphat  :party0031:

Not really back... i have begin read these topic because one of your reply on youtube who invite to do so...

I am not more in the business of Russian bride, not more married to Russian Bride, not more seeking Russian bride... i have give up... now, i simply date without border limit...

Have made one post in 2010, these post is from 2011 ( happy new year )... next one will be in 2012  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: cufflinks on January 01, 2011, 08:05:34 AM
Read the report - outside of some formatting readability critique - I am open minded as I have no dog in the hunt and no axe to grind - always interested in novel marketing ideas etc... will be interested to see the follow up work(s)...

Curious that similar rationale for controls on behavior now emanating from the British Conservatives:

UK Government wants ISPs to block porn:

http://my.opera.com/portalnews/blog/2010/12/20/uk-government-wants-isps-to-block-porn

In another chapter in the saga of Internet censorship, British ministers are encouraging ISPs to block sexual content by default. Is this a good thing?

Ministers in the Conservative British government are suggesting that future legislation could require all major ISPs in the UK to block porn and sexual content on the website by default. This move is intended to stem the "sexualization of children" as, of course, it is becoming exceedingly difficult to shelter children from this sort of content when they are using the Web.

I think that it would be great to have an option of being able to block sex websites at the ISP level if you have children at home and are concerned about the corruption that could be committed by nonstop stream of nakedness. On the other hand, I also feel that the politicians could be taking things too far with this one.
 
Ed Vaizey, communications minister for Britain is a proponent of limiting access to pornography.

Frankly, I suspect that the majority of internet users probably willingly look at something that could be construed as being "pornographic" from time to time, and yet this is probably not something that everyone wants to openly admit to.

It might be the slightest bit embarrassing for one to have to phone up their ISP and say: "I say, old chap -- I fancy a gander at some knockers right about now. If you could be so kind and switch on the tantilizing titillation, that would be right smashing! Jolly good. Cheerio!"

Aside from the unpleasantness of this scenario, there's also the uncomfortable situation of your ISP having a list of all of the 'perverted weirdos' who opted in to watch porn - and this sounds like a step back for freedom.

It seems like a much more plausible scenario to allow parents or the prudish to specifically opt in for content blocking - for instance, when setting up their Internet accounts. I can foresee the draconian measure of blocking all porn by default as causing a lot of aggravating problems for many users. What if the method which which content is blocked is overly aggressive? Given the uncontrolled and interlinked nature of the Internet, it's pretty likely that just about any page you could be on is only a few of links away from blocked content, and you will run into "403" errors or such that your ISP has thoughtfully provided for you.

Implementing these sorts of restrictions on the Web seems to counter the very nature of what it was supposed to be - an open and free way for people to access information. For that reason, I'm not a fan of these restrictions. On the other hand, 'protecting the children' is a noble enough goal, but with today's prevalence of sexuality in all forms of media, and the virtually ubiquitous access people have to the Web from anywhere, would this sort of measure even make any real difference?

It is probably more practical for parents to use the parental controls in their operating system and search engines to achieve similar result without having to incur a potential burden on taxpayers or fellow Internet subscribers. (These things do cost money, you know).
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: fireeater on January 01, 2011, 08:07:18 AM
Quote
Of course not but the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the process is probably a reflection of the depth of colour in your rose coloured spectacles.

AND

As many women will tell you, they can marry a poor guy in their home town.

Since you seem to not be able to read you should note I said it was not the ONLY reason.  There are no rose coloured glasses on here I am just not the pessimist you are.  I have heard many other reasons to look outside Russia...instability, corruption, social inequality.  Reasons to look at a western man...perceived as better family men, different culture that values woman more.  And yes...economics can come into the equation as well but they are not the singular cause.

I will have to agree with Froid. There are many other factors why someone would choose to leave their homeland. Some he listed are valid reasons, yet at the same time not all fall under economics. Since I know a few women who have chosen the reason he did not list, love, it is
a main factor for some who gave up what they have already for who they have met. Economically they had no reason to want to move.   

Now another illustration would be a Russian couple who for five years spent an equal amount of time, in Moscow and Toronto. Upon their divorce she decided that Toronto would be her home. None of the reasons she gave freely, mentioned anything to do with economics. She would have had that choice to stay in Moscow if she wished to. Her ex stayed in Moscow, her adult son also decided on Toronto as well, and is a journalist here.

If the agency side dies, it will not stop people from communicating, meeting and making it happen. There are far too many other ways of contacting and finding each other, either locally or in another country. You do not need a business to do it. So who cares other then the owners if they die out.       
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 01, 2011, 10:34:47 AM
 Some here feel that Mr.fi is out to bleed a buck from those who sign up on his site, and read his report. 18 pages of content is lots to swallow, and it begs the curiosity as to why he'd even bother to make such a detailed account of American's looking for foreign wives. I guess you could also include American females in that, along with gay and lesbian relationships as well.
 My pursuit had problems with Europeans getting to the girl first, not American's. The last agency I used was in Rostov, and the majority of clients were western Europeans.
 American's are not jumping on planes like they once did, their economy is currently unstable, and it has changed in how they spend their money.

 I'm a Canadian so this report is completely irrelevant to me, however to satisfy others who question his motive in doing all this work, I'll ask Mr.fi some easy a read question, and wait for his reply.

   Once some time has passed and those who have read your report, will they be asked to enroll in something that will require them to give their money away at a later date?  We all here know that your doing for money, that's fair. But we all know that if the another forum inner circle did this, the RUA 3 amigos would be all over them sticking to it like bile on a blanket.
 
 I think the boys here just want some clarity, fairly simple.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 01, 2011, 10:38:51 AM

MUZH,
 If you look it up NAZI, is short for National socialist party.
 So yes one can and do have both.
 But please don't take my word for it, look it up. :offtopic:

Boy, you sure know your history, don't you?

But I agree with you this is  :offtopic:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 01, 2011, 11:34:42 AM
But we all know that if the another forum inner circle did this, the RUA 3 amigos would be all over them sticking to it like bile on a blanket.

It may surprise you to learn, another forum will be carrying ads for the report also. The only reason they are not right now is that Dan is out of town and delayed by snow somewhere I gather.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 01, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
UK Government wants ISPs to block porn:

It is probably more practical for parents to use the parental controls in their operating system and search engines to achieve similar result without having to incur a potential burden on taxpayers or fellow Internet subscribers. (These things do cost money, you know).

Funny article post not really related to the topic...

If UK Gov ask ISP to block porn OR/AND parent block porn in their own computer... it remain one parameter that everybody forget... Kids are far to be stupid...

When related to computer knowledge, the usual rule is that kids are more educated that their own parents... several of these kids know how use foreign proxy for reach blocked site...

Same thing with these IMBRA and other thing... agency AND customer will find a way to go around them...

Quote
If the agency side dies, it will not stop people from communicating, meeting and making it happen. There are far too many other ways of contacting and finding each other, either locally or in another country. You do not need a business to do it. So who cares other then the owners if they die out.

Well, more and more agency don't make their money from the girls catalogue but more from the side service : translation, organization of trip/stay, admin help for visa, gift/flower for girlfriend, and more...

Very long time ago, i have be two time owner of a marriage site related to FSU ladies... contact pages was nothing more that advert like in newspaper... free newspaper... was making between 2000 - 5000 $ month for only a few hours work by day... money was earn via services owned by others... by example, i was earning 15% if someone was buying his delta airline ticket via my site...

Point  is that the business will never die... yes, agency who don't adapt will maybe die... but it is true for any business... year after year, the world evolve and business adapt to the new conditions...

There is some true in the Andrew PDF text but it is wrote like a "end of the world" text from a "doom sayer"... it is now 20 year that people say that it is the end of the russian bride business... well, in 20 year, thing have change... sometime in a good way, sometime in a bad way... but it is not yet dead... and i don't think that it will die in 2011...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 01, 2011, 12:30:17 PM
But we all know that if the another forum inner circle did this, the RUA 3 amigos would be all over them sticking to it like bile on a blanket.

It may surprise you to learn, another forum will be carrying ads for the report also. The only reason they are not right now is that Dan is out of town and delayed by snow somewhere I gather.

Now, Manny--run it by us one more time as to why Andrew is not now classed as a "commercial member" if he's running ads and offering cash to people for referring others to register with his site--with the "free" report being the draw for folks to register there.

Please remember--I am not at all adverse to his making money online, far from it. I only think that honesty is the best policy, and everyone should acknowledge that his motivation is far from philanthropic in all this.

Sorry, but in my opinion and that of various others he should be subject to the same rules as everyone else.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 01, 2011, 12:35:31 PM
I am not more in the business of Russian bride, not more married to Russian Bride, not more seeking Russian bride... i have give up... now, i simply date without border limit...

Perhaps you might consider giving us a brief update on another thread. RW aren't all fluffy kittens, are they?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 01, 2011, 12:46:40 PM
But we all know that if the another forum inner circle did this, the RUA 3 amigos would be all over them sticking to it like bile on a blanket.

It may surprise you to learn, another forum will be carrying ads for the report also. The only reason they are not right now is that Dan is out of town and delayed by snow somewhere I gather.

Now, Manny--run it by us one more time as to why Andrew is not now classed as a "commercial member" if he's running ads and offering cash to people for referring others to register with his site--with the "free" report being the draw for folks to register there.

Please remember--I am not at all adverse to his making money online, far from it. I only think that honesty is the best policy, and everyone should acknowledge that his motivation is far from philanthropic in all this.

Sorry, but in my opinion and that of various others he should be subject to the same rules as everyone else.

David

I didn't put him as commercial member as he isn't charging for anything - he is giving it away! There is no transaction. However, as y'all want to use it as a stick to beat me with, I'll tag him as a commercial member just to keep y'all happy.

Just goes to show, some folks aren't even happy when you give stuff away!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Paul on January 01, 2011, 12:56:25 PM
Since when has RUA been a democracy? ...

I don't remember paying anyone to be a member here.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 01, 2011, 01:18:26 PM
Since when has RUA been a democracy? ...

It aint a democracy!

Don, I have no plans to hypnotise you and make you give me money! My information requirement was explained elsewhere and I have a clearly stated policy in regard to your email address.

If you are so scared of what the innerneds can make you do are you safe to use the internet on your computer?

More constructively, if you want to cause me some grief then attack my bank account - help me spread the word, see if you can hurt me.

Even more constructively:
Let us talk about the issues facing the international marriage bureau biz.
Let us talk about the things we agree on, the things we don't agree on and maybe share some new insights.

Do not for one second imagine that not being American makes you in some way immune to the processes now in play.
You are not.
The same memes that are becoming powerful in the USA exist in other places too.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 01, 2011, 06:22:54 PM

Don, I have no plans to hypnotise you and make you give me money! My information requirement was explained elsewhere and I have a clearly stated policy in regard to your email address.
Quote

 Thank you for answering, it was most welcoming. Now I just hope you have understood the question.  :coffeeread:


If you are so scared of what the innerneds can make you do are you safe to use the internet on your computer?

 My ignorance of the PC is bliss... so I've been told.  ;D


More constructively, if you want to cause me some grief then attack my bank account - help me spread the word, see if you can hurt me.

  ??? Prehaps you're taking my simple Q a tad far from the crosshairs.



Even more constructively:
Let us talk about the issues facing the international marriage bureau biz.
Let us talk about the things we agree on, the things we don't agree on and maybe share some new insights.
No interest in it at all.   :Zzzzsleep:


Do not for one second imagine that not being American makes you in some way immune to the processes now in play.
You are not.
The same memes that are becoming powerful in the USA exist in other places too.

  That I highly doubt. Our immigration MP is currently taking steps to ensure bogus marriages come to an end. Nothing has been said about restricting the movement of Canadian's abroad. The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada. Changes to obtaining a PR card are also in the table for change. Now knowing how well they move in Ottawa, I'm gonna hedge that these changes will be announced , but won't be enforced.

 Please excuse my Moby-esk quoted post.  I guess he's enjoying his New Years weekend, and hasn't had the chance to drop by on your topic yet.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 01, 2011, 11:49:27 PM

The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.

Of course Canada is far different from the US.

A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right?    :ROFL:

At the same time, one aspect of the argument is quite true--if U.S. citizens are sufficiently discouraged that their numbers decrease substantially, that will make the introduction agency business so unprofitable that it will indeed drive many to seek other business opportunities. That alone will affect bride seekers no matter where they may be from.

David

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 02, 2011, 02:42:24 AM

The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.

Of course Canada is far different from the US.

A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right?    :ROFL:

At the same time, one aspect of the argument is quite true--if U.S. citizens are sufficiently discouraged that their numbers decrease substantially, that will make the introduction agency business so unprofitable that it will indeed drive many to seek other business opportunities. That alone will affect bride seekers no matter where they may be from.

David

Yes. Apart from a basic truth that many memes are shared across national boundaries this is very important. Much of the mail order bride biz from the FSU, Latin America and Asia is financed and run by US interests.
What happens to that client base will affect clients from elsewhere.

In truth it will be easier for many service providers to do as they do now and treat all their paying clients as if they were US based, thus Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc will have to deal with legislative effects to some degree or another.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: sparky114 on January 02, 2011, 03:11:13 AM
Well after reading a little of this thread it leaves me with the feeling we should shut this forum now so we are not the last left in when the light is turned off  (:)

But for all those Americans get over now its your chance to beat the pre-sale rush and end up with the left overs that did not sell  :chuckle:

I feel sorry for our old mate Cuffy he is still saving his money to be in a good and stable position, and nobody has told him someones already shut the shop!! :-X
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 02, 2011, 03:21:46 AM
Andrew,

As you yourself pointed out either in this thread or on the other forum's, when someone provides their email account address for downloading your report they are implicitly agreeing to future mail solicitations of yours without them being technically considered to be spam.

I believe this strategy without disclosure in advance of what they may be letting themselves in for is, in this day and age, a tactical mistake.

There are various Internet sources I have deliberately chosen to provide my address to in the full knowledge that they would be using it in precisely this manner--when I believed the information they offered in return was sufficiently valuable. However that was a conscious choice on my part--I never was bothered by its consequences, knowing just what I was letting myself in for.

You have chosen to do no more than hint at your future plans for this information and ignore the concerns of those who wonder about it--or, worse, to denigrate those fears. In my experience, this is a level of apparent contempt for your target demographic.

In fact, failure to disclose often increases the apprehension of many--as you have seen in these threads. Rightly or wrongly, you are lumped in with various other "Internet marketers" who haven't always been particularly savory in their actions.

I would suggest that you reconsider this particular strategy, and think about making a clear statement as to your plans for this data--at least inasmuch as what someone registering may expect to receive in future.

I, for one, have nothing against people making a buck from legitimate online activities--including your own. However, like many others I have been burned in the past and merely seek to understand what I'm getting myself into these days.

While the breathless prose of your marketing activities and the "sky is falling!" approach isn't my style, that does not mean your assertions are groundless. Change in any industry is, after all, part of life that we should all anticipate.

However, so far at least I have not seen how this will negatively impact those who are sincerely seeking a mate abroad. Many of the IMBs around richly deserve to go out of business, in my experience. I completely fail to see how getting rid of the "keyboard romeos" and the totally clueless from this pursuit is a bad thing.

From my perspective,  your arguments should appeal far more to those now in the introduction agency business--which as I have mentioned is my own personal pet theory as to what you are ultimately up to. We can both name various agencies that are often best avoided by newcomers to this search--including the two you have been particularly active in promoting since your recent holiday in Florida.

Those men who are not serious, who are not willing to put in the time and effort to find a very real and suitable match, I submit they are no loss to the rest of men involved in this pursuit.

Furthermore, there is yet another advantage to drastic changes in the industry: as it becomes less profitable, I believe many of the presently-active scammers will move to other means of making money.

At one time, most people who met others internationally and later developed relationships with them, if they did not meet by travel, used "pen pal" resources such as Signal in Finland (still around, by the way). I think the modern social networking sites are merely updated resources of the same variety--and people will continue to meet and become mutually interested through them, just as so many are doing today.

In short, based upon your worst case scenario, I believe it is not necessarily as bad as you make out.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 02, 2011, 03:26:15 AM

The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.

Of course Canada is far different from the US.

A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right?    :ROFL:

At the same time, one aspect of the argument is quite true--if U.S. citizens are sufficiently discouraged that their numbers decrease substantially, that will make the introduction agency business so unprofitable that it will indeed drive many to seek other business opportunities. That alone will affect bride seekers no matter where they may be from.

David

Yes. Apart from a basic truth that many memes are shared across national boundaries this is very important. Much of the mail order bride biz from the FSU, Latin America and Asia is financed and run by US interests.
What happens to that client base will affect clients from elsewhere.

In truth it will be easier for many service providers to do as they do now and treat all their paying clients as if they were US based, thus Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc will have to deal with legislative effects to some degree or another.

Andrew now you've had a few too many celebratory New Year's Eve drinks.  What agency American or otherwise would have Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc do the American IMBRA paperwork knowing that the men are exempt?  What happens when one of these men points out to the agency proprietor that as a Brit he is exempt from IMBRA since his future wife will be living in the UK and not the US? What's next Estonian men having to fill out IMBRA paperwork when they marry an ethnic Russian woman in Estonia?  :laugh: :laugh:

Andrew I think you should concentrate on selling used cars or fake Viagra over the Internet that's obviously where your marketing expertise lays.   It really will be interesting to see what you're going to try and sell the men in the Russian bride community once your master marketing plan has run its course.  It's all about the  :money: :money:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 02, 2011, 09:22:58 AM
Some people have questioned why it was that I wanted to provide access to my Death of a Russian Bride (http://andrewwilsonnews.com) report only after providing an email address.

Well, here's how it is. Today, only about 72 hours after launching the report, I have just closed down the third infringer who sought to redistribute the report outside of my control, this time from one of the largest forums in this niche.
The problem is not an easy one to deal with.
I want to open a dialogue about some very serious issues that are facing the International Marriage Bureau business, the service providers in both the US and internationally and their clients in any country around the world.

This report is the first part of the document, the next part is in progress right now.

I want to ensure, to the best of my ability, that people get to see the words that I wrote in as transparent a way as possible. The ONLY way to do this is for me to control distribution. When others take it upon themselves to steal my intellectual property I lose control of those words and I have no way to ensure that what is shared and spread is what I actually wrote!

When the next document comes out I want to ensure that those who were interested enough to ask for the first part are able to get the second part as soon as is possible, again the only way to do this is by email.

I make a part of my living from dealing with people across the internet. I take issues of trust and privacy VERY seriously because, in the end, all we have is our reputation, more on the internet than just about anywhere else.

On the signup page for my report the following words appear:

Quote
Privacy Notice: Death Of A Russian Bride Has a Zero Tolerance Policy for SPAM, and will only contact you after you have opted in and confirmed your email address verifying that you have requested the information. You may opt out at any time!

Note those words, they are important. If I did not have concerns for the trust and privacy of those who are interested in this issue I would not have used them. They are pretty concrete. I want to know that you want to read and I want you to confirm it.
You can stop the process at any time.
I know that I will receive no justifiable spam complaints as a result of my campaign.

All the ideas, words, videos, layouts used are mine, they represent my knowledge and research and nobody else's; although, of course, I have learned much from other people, including readers of this thread and my report. As always, research is the result of a person standing upon the shoulders of others in order to see further.

So, please, do not ask me to distribute Death of a Russian Bride in any other manner - it will not happen.
Please do not try to infer that this report is not my own work or that it represents the ideas of another person or business, neither is true, and I will not dignify such suggestions with responses.

Take the words written at face value, deal with the ideas and issues as they appear to you.

If you want to read what I have written then sign up, using a disposable email address if you choose. Read my words and add to the conversation. Every constructive post here and in other places is read and adds to my sum total of knowledge. I am doing something that, to the best of my knowledge has not been done before. It could not have been done without the help and support of many readers here and will not be concluded without your/their help.

And yes, if you pass this report onto other people who might be interested in it then I will happily pay you the princely sum of $1 per subscription. I want to spread this document. It is my choice and challenge.


PS. Some have made inferences as to my purpose based upon the faulty reasoning that the name of the software/service I use to support this process. I am using www.thelistvirus.com because I know of no better way to manage a workflow of this type. The Death of a Russian Bride is actually a very good demonstration, on a very small scale, of the prowess of The List Virus. It has flawlessly functioned in managing signups, confirmations, affiliates and content delivery. I can't imagine having managed this job without it and absolutely not with the very high rate of confirmed signups achieved. So, thanks Todd at List Virus and thanks to you guys for following through the subscription process!
Let us do something positive, eh?


Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on January 02, 2011, 09:26:34 AM

The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.

Of course Canada is far different from the US.

A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right?    :ROFL:

As far as I know there is no plan to revive the fiancé visa. The 2-year thing is merely one of those ideas that is thrown out there and will certainly go nowhere...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 02, 2011, 10:00:40 AM

The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.

Of course Canada is far different from the US.

A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right?    :ROFL:

As far as I know there is no plan to revive the fiancé visa. The 2-year thing is merely one of those ideas that is thrown out there and will certainly go nowhere...

There is no relationship between the U.S. fiancee visa and the conditional green card. The two-year conditional resident visa applies to anyone who is married to a non-citizen whether following a fiancee visa or marriage in another country.

Thus, as I understand it, the Canadian proposal is extremely similar to the two-year conditional green card in the U.S.

It was simply amusing that Donholio claimed Canada is so different from the U.S., given his example.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on January 02, 2011, 10:15:38 AM
We are. We don't have fiance visas, we don't have 2-year conditional permanent residence and you can also sponsor a same-sex spouse as far as I know... So, that makes us different enough ;) What Don wrote are merely trial balloons to see the reaction.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 02, 2011, 10:37:26 AM
Westcoast, I do not sell fake Viagra, nor have I ever sold used cars.
You kinda missed the point, perhaps the view from your armchair is getting a tad narrow, or more likely you have not actually read that which you criticise in such a nieve fashion. I would refer you to 'Death of a Russian Bride' where the points at issue are made pretty clear, IMBRA is just one issue among many. When you have read the report we can better discuss what I wrote, yes?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 02, 2011, 10:44:29 AM
Andrew now you've had a few too many celebratory New Year's Eve drinks.  What agency American or otherwise would have Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc do the American IMBRA paperwork knowing that the men are exempt?  What happens when one of these men points out to the agency proprietor that as a Brit he is exempt from IMBRA since his future wife will be living in the UK and not the US? What's next Estonian men having to fill out IMBRA paperwork when they marry an ethnic Russian woman in Estonia?  :laugh: :laugh:

Andrew I think you should concentrate on selling used cars or fake Viagra over the Internet that's obviously where your marketing expertise lays.   It really will be interesting to see what you're going to try and sell the men in the Russian bride community once your master marketing plan has run its course.  It's all about the  :money: :money:

Westy, first off, your comment quoted really doesn't lend itself to furthering the discussion at hand, let's avoid the inflammatory rhetoric, eh?.

Now, as Andrew alluded to above, the reality of the situation is that the special interest lobbyists/organizations in Canada (at least) are pushing for IMBRA type legislation and have been doing so for years, David and Don touched on it above commenting on the two year 'trial period' being on the table.

What Canadian men/women involved or are thinking of getting involved in an offshore relationship need to understand is the same (type) organizations that managed to push IMBRA through are actively seeking similar legislation here. Again, I firmly believe that one case of violence/abuse in any form against any  female/male immigrant or otherwise is one too many but that doesn't change the agenda.

Case in point. A federal briefing document published by (from what I gather) three of  these organizations:

Briefing (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:OOyc9pOz8CoJ:www.endingviolence.org/files/uploads/FED_BN_3_Guidelines.pdf+Canadian+immigration+and+the+mail+order+bride&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESirthLPsfPhSPo2HDXr_gm40bgw1UvHfJvFS-omCy_tN4R2bgTF8rqGs1bpyillbPk5Fc-JfRqMj5I3DzeH8TY9TZ50loBuUhXkGeX86WbfKhFEP3pxez3nd7OOb1uSC04EcmMf&sig=AHIEtbSll4ZLmJDBRsXOG6YvFqog0Qy_0Q)

You'll note that as in this document and other documents, some  more militant in their wording, they don't make a distinction between 'mail order bride' and temporary foreign worker (Page 5, Para 9, bullet 4 (located page 6));

They define 'mail order bride' as any woman (I'll assume male or female but as their area of special interest is the female gender, we'll stick with that) who has met their spouse through an international introduction  or penpal agency (Page 2, Para Key Points, bullet 9 (located on page 3)); and

And one I find a little disturbing, a reversal of the victim/perpetrator role regarding men being used as mules under false pretences (Page 3, Para The Context, bullet 9 (located page 4)). In effect leaving the door open to make the sponsor guilty, regardless if the 'bride' turns out to be a GCG (for lack of equivelant Canadian term) duping a male for the purpose seeking immigration.

There are many such documents on the web. The point being here, is that in some ways, this is exactly what happened in the US. The terms were defined by these special interest groups, the 'industry 'and endeavor  (immigration for the purpose of marriage) tied to human trafficking, abuse and even foreign workers, then they went to work on the US lawmakers and IMBRA was born.

I'm not sensationalizing or by no means saying this type of legislation is imminent, what I am saying is these organizations are working diligently here in Canada to get their agenda enacted, while the (mostly) men who would seek a foreign relationship or the agencies/companies who would facilitate same, are really not paying attention...Exactly what happened in the US five years ago.

Brass

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 02, 2011, 12:24:34 PM
Westcoast, I do not sell fake Viagra, nor have I ever sold used cars.
You kinda missed the point, perhaps the view from your armchair is getting a tad narrow, or more likely you have not actually read that which you criticise in such a nieve fashion. I would refer you to 'Death of a Russian Bride' where the points at issue are made pretty clear, IMBRA is just one issue among many. When you have read the report we can better discuss what I wrote, yes?

My apologies Andrew so you don't sell fake Viagra, then it must be the fake Rolex watch brochures that I keep getting in email, so similar to your brochure.  As I mentioned before I've downloaded and read your report that's what gave me the impression that you were an Internet marketer.  The brochure was so much spam.     

As for the actual content of your report, my ex is in the immigration business and I volunteer at a community centre that has a large immigrant population.  In the past year I've probably met and spoken with more of the immigrants under discussion than most people on RUA or another forum will meet in a lifetime.   
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 02, 2011, 12:46:21 PM
Andrew now you've had a few too many celebratory New Year's Eve drinks.  What agency American or otherwise would have Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc do the American IMBRA paperwork knowing that the men are exempt?  What happens when one of these men points out to the agency proprietor that as a Brit he is exempt from IMBRA since his future wife will be living in the UK and not the US? What's next Estonian men having to fill out IMBRA paperwork when they marry an ethnic Russian woman in Estonia?  :laugh: :laugh:

Andrew I think you should concentrate on selling used cars or fake Viagra over the Internet that's obviously where your marketing expertise lays.   It really will be interesting to see what you're going to try and sell the men in the Russian bride community once your master marketing plan has run its course.  It's all about the  :money: :money:

Westy, first off, your comment quoted really doesn't lend itself to furthering the discussion at hand, let's avoid the inflammatory rhetoric, eh?.

Now, as Andrew alluded to above, the reality of the situation is that the special interest lobbyists/organizations in Canada (at least) are pushing for IMBRA type legislation and have been doing so for years, David and Don touched on it above commenting on the two year 'trial period' being on the table.

What Canadian men/women involved or are thinking of getting involved in an offshore relationship need to understand is the same (type) organizations that managed to push IMBRA through are actively seeking similar legislation here. Again, I firmly believe that one case of violence/abuse in any form against any  female/male immigrant or otherwise is one too many but that doesn't change the agenda.

Case in point. A federal briefing document published by (from what I gather) three of  these organizations:

Briefing (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:OOyc9pOz8CoJ:www.endingviolence.org/files/uploads/FED_BN_3_Guidelines.pdf+Canadian+immigration+and+the+mail+order+bride&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESirthLPsfPhSPo2HDXr_gm40bgw1UvHfJvFS-omCy_tN4R2bgTF8rqGs1bpyillbPk5Fc-JfRqMj5I3DzeH8TY9TZ50loBuUhXkGeX86WbfKhFEP3pxez3nd7OOb1uSC04EcmMf&sig=AHIEtbSll4ZLmJDBRsXOG6YvFqog0Qy_0Q)

You'll note that as in this document and other documents, some  more militant in their wording, they don't make a distinction between 'mail order bride' and temporary foreign worker (Page 5, Para 9, bullet 4 (located page 6));

They define 'mail order bride' as any woman (I'll assume male or female but as their area of special interest is the female gender, we'll stick with that) who has met their spouse through an international introduction  or penpal agency (Page 2, Para Key Points, bullet 9 (located on page 3)); and

And one I find a little disturbing, a reversal of the victim/perpetrator role regarding men being used as mules under false pretences (Page 3, Para The Context, bullet 9 (located page 4)). In effect leaving the door open to make the sponsor guilty, regardless if the 'bride' turns out to be a GCG (for lack of equivelant Canadian term) duping a male for the purpose seeking immigration.

There are many such documents on the web. The point being here, is that in some ways, this is exactly what happened in the US. The terms were defined by these special interest groups, the 'industry 'and endeavor  (immigration for the purpose of marriage) tied to human trafficking, abuse and even foreign workers, then they went to work on the US lawmakers and IMBRA was born.

I'm not sensationalizing or by no means saying this type of legislation is imminent, what I am saying is these organizations are working diligently here in Canada to get their agenda enacted, while the (mostly) men who would seek a foreign relationship or the agencies/companies who would facilitate same, are really not paying attention...Exactly what happened in the US five years ago.

Brass

Brass this type of document isn't new, most of the women's organizations have been trying to get similar legislation enacted for some time.  The problem is that Canada's three largest (by far) source countries for immigrants are China, India and the Philippines, none of which could really be called "safe countries" for women or countries championing human rights.  However, citizens of and former citizens of, don't want their countries reputations disparaged so the women's rights groups can't actually name any of these countries. 

These organizations may use some women from these countries as examples of abuse however the ethnic communities from these countries form large voting blocks and they don't like the insult that often accompanies these examples of abuse.  I seriously doubt the legislation, especially in the form you've shown, has much chance of passing even an initial vote.   

Brass I really don't think my comments about Andrew's report were any more inflammatory than any of his comments or his report.  He has asked for comments on the topic and I happen to have some personal expertise on the matter having dealt with immigrants over 10 years and speaking a second language that is extremely common with immigrants in the Vancouver area.  Plus my ex is Chinese born and raised, not Russian but still any legislation wouldn't be based on specific countries.

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: 2tallbill on January 02, 2011, 01:14:15 PM
Andrew I think you should concentrate on selling used cars or fake Viagra over the Internet that's obviously where your marketing expertise lays. 

Warning I didn't read much of the thread, I just popped in so let me know if I am
unaware of some earlier crap

Westy,

I am surprised, I don't remember you previously making posts like this.

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 02, 2011, 01:15:41 PM
Brass this type of document isn't new, most of the women's organizations have been trying to get similar legislation enacted for some time.  The problem is that Canada's three largest (by far) source countries for immigrants are China, India and the Philippines, none of which could really be called "safe countries" for women or countries championing human rights.  However, citizens of and former citizens of, don't want their countries reputations disparaged so the women's rights groups can't actually name any of these countries. 

Agreed and a good point. But they can't very well say all foreign brides except...which is what Misha and I were talking about. The honest apps might well get caught up in the minority of dishonest apps...

Quote from: Westy
These organizations may use some women from these countries as examples of abuse however the ethnic communities from these countries form large voting blocks and they don't like the insult that often accompanies these examples of abuse.  I seriously doubt the legislation, especially in the form you've shown, has much chance of passing even an initial vote.   

I've pointed out above that immigrant communities in Canada tend to have low turn outs, vote for second or third parties and themselves are showing a polling trend towards placing immigration restrictions on new Canadians. However, again as Misha and I touched on, they don't need to get legislation passed in it's entirety, just keep asking for amendments similar to IMBRA, making sponsorship/process more difficult/lengthy to the point, of for practicle purposes, untenable.

Quote from: Westy
Brass I really don't think my comments about Andrew's report were any more inflammatory than any of his comments or his report.  He has asked for comments on the topic and I happen to have some personal expertise on the matter having dealt with immigrants over 10 years and speaking a second language that is extremely common with immigrants in the Vancouver area.  Plus my ex is Chinese born and raised, not Russian but still any legislation wouldn't be based on specific countries.

You've got access and experience in this area, Westy. Don't waste it on ad hominem quips. Debate the report if you're so inclined. :)

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 02, 2011, 01:19:27 PM
I'm gonna have to call "BS" on this.  The so called detailed analysis backing this so called report is so flawed it's not even funny.

The 6 listed "laws" that seem to be the basis of the sky is falling aspect of this internet marketing campaign are nothing.  Lets review them:

IMBRA - enacted in 2005  hasn't been any impact yet . . .

Missouri House bill 2449  failed to pass.  Public input was finished in April 2010 and subsequently the bill was never scheduled for a hearing and was never put on a calendar.

Washington RCW220  bogus citation, why hide the real citation??  This law has a clearly written "intent" as to what it's purpose is and it's not what is being claimed in this chicken little sky is falling internet marketing campagain.  Oh, yeah, this law was written in 2002 with some updates in 2006.  Can't find a reference to it's actual use.

Hawaii Rev. Stat. § 489N-2   was written in 2002  can't find any reference to it's actual use.

Texas Business and Commerce Code 2003: Title 5, Subtitle C, Chapter 101  Written in 2002 and not utilized.  I've previously mentioned this one.

Maryland HB65/SB129  signed by Governor 5/20/2010


So of the 6 "laws" that allegedly spell the death of this market, one is recent, so no way to know what if any impact it will have, 1 was written in 2005 and has no impact to date, and 4 were written in 2002 and have had no impact.


Please explain how on earth this can even come close to supporting the claims being made?? 


Waiting . . . .


Guess we've found the Alex Jones of the Foreign Bride Industry.



-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 02, 2011, 01:25:15 PM
I'm gonna have to call "BS" on this.  The so called detailed analysis backing this so called report is so flawed it's not even funny.

The 6 listed "laws" that seem to be the basis of the sky is falling aspect of this internet marketing campaign are nothing.  Lets review them:

IMBRA - enacted in 2005  hasn't been any impact yet . . .

Missouri House bill 2449  failed to pass.  Public input was finished in April 2010 and subsequently the bill was never scheduled for a hearing and was never put on a calendar.

Washington RCW220  bogus citation, why hide the real citation??  This law has a clearly written "intent" as to what it's purpose is and it's not what is being claimed in this chicken little sky is falling internet marketing campagain.  Oh, yeah, this law was written in 2002 with some updates in 2006.  Can't find a reference to it's actual use.

Hawaii Rev. Stat. § 489N-2   was written in 2002  can't find any reference to it's actual use.

Texas Business and Commerce Code 2003: Title 5, Subtitle C, Chapter 101  Written in 2002 and not utilized.  I've previously mentioned this one.

Maryland HB65/SB129  signed by Governor 5/20/2010


So of the 6 "laws" that allegedly spell the death of this market, one is recent, so no way to know what if any impact it will have, 1 was written in 2005 and has no impact to date, and 4 were written in 2002 and have had no impact.


Please explain how on earth this can even come close to supporting the claims being made?? 


Waiting . . . .


Guess we've found the Alex Jones of the Foreign Bride Industry.



-david

Excellent research and points DWFunk.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 02, 2011, 02:27:03 PM
"Everyone,"

I've already announced publicly and privately to those with and without commercial interest that I'll be sharing my thoughts, criticism, and opinions about the work as I see fit. Furthermore those criticisms, praise, commentary and use of the authors own words to highlight the ultimate point that I may be making at any time will be used to further highlight and critically discuss and educate readers on various points being made and which will come up during discourse with the author and others. For the forgetful, ignorant, research challenged and those who have for any number of reasons failed to read this thread in it's entirety my comments in this regard can be found here:
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13322.msg190908.html#msg190908 . For the passive reader and those who may not have read the entire thread to this point. You will find this as important due to the following factors. It would seem that the author and forum administration would indeed only like to discuss the issues highlighted in Andrew's advertorial1 under circumstances conducive to what they deem as 'fruitful to their endeavors' <and future endeavors> and or which will not be 'overly critical' of the advertorial 1 piece. Since the author has whined publicly and privately about reading a lot of text and being educated about issues where he clearly displays ignorance I've decided to engage him with a bit of New Year's good spirit and charity and use citations in the internationally accepted format to make it easier for some to do their 'toilet reading' on it later. More to follow on this below.


I want to open a dialogue about some very serious issues that are facing the International Marriage Bureau business, the service providers in both the US and internationally and their clients in any country around the world.

That is a great idea and it has been the subject of many threads in this forum and other related 'discussion forum' genre's available online. The real question is why did you feel the need to publish the .pdf in a sensationalistic and alarmist manner? What new enlightening content has your advertorial1 added to the discussion of the issue. Why the abrupt anticlimactic end at page 20 or so? It certainly lends  the 'feel' and perception it's an uncompleted work to the reader at least in my opinion, any one else agree?

Clearly the author tried to use the sensationalism and rhetoric of the first 5 pages to create 'buzz' and he's using the forum members and his other internet marketing venues to further that aim. The issue is the lack of conclusion and lack of cohesive let down and addition. these are just a few 'stylistic points of discussion that would be enlightening to hear the authors comments in regards to why he wrote his piece in this fashion. 

This report is the first part of the document, the next part is in progress right now.


Keeping the above questions in mind about your advertorial1, Andrew. What types of style changes and improvements do you anticipate with the follow up work? Has the discussion here prompted any changes in the style of your second follow on piece? Will there be further explanation of the marketing and statements you made on pages 18-20 of your report? Do you plan to enhance and expanded the number and content of the primary source material used in the 'second volume' of your advertorial1? Will you be saving the op-ed, and analysis part for the summary of your follow on report?
 
I want to ensure, to the best of my ability, that people get to see the words that I wrote in as transparent a way as possible.

Unless of course they quote your own words on this forum or from the document2 itself, apparently. As you attempt to squash as much of what you and your (as of this time unnamed) partner's and commercial entities deem as undesirable commentary on the subject.

The ONLY way to do this is for me to control distribution.

That's standard practice in the industry, and not all that strange.... Why did you feel the need to bring it up?

When others take it upon themselves to steal my intellectual property I lose control of those words and I have no way to ensure that what is shared and spread is what I actually wrote!

Unless of course someone quotes your words, accurately, directly and using internationally accepted written standards of doing so in the course of commentary, criticism, review, research or discussion, etc... (See citations below: #3-5, and #'s10-12)

When the next document comes out I want to ensure that those who were interested enough to ask for the first part are able to get the second part as soon as is possible, again the only way to do this is by email.

Not surprising especially with your commentary on pages 18-20 of your advertorial1and 6.

I make a part of my living from dealing with people across the internet. I take issues of trust and privacy VERY seriously because, in the end, all we have is our reputation, more on the internet than just about anywhere else.

Then why the slander and regularly cast aspersions on others found throughout this forum and easily using the search key. How does doing such enhance your 'reputation' and that of your work? Links are available if needed.

On the signup page for my report the following words appear:

Quote
Privacy Notice: Death Of A Russian Bride Has a Zero Tolerance Policy for SPAM, and will only contact you after you have opted in and confirmed your email address verifying that you have requested the information. You may opt out at any time!

Note those words, they are important. If I did not have concerns for the trust and privacy of those who are interested in this issue I would not have used them. They are pretty concrete. I want to know that you want to read and I want you to confirm it.
You can stop the process at any time. I know that I will receive no justifiable spam complaints as a result of my campaign.

It would appear and reads that your providing notice to all reading you'll send them whatever and however many items you'd like to their email based on nothing more than their signing up to get your <thus far> singularly published advertorial1, correct?

All the ideas, words, videos, layouts used are mine, they represent my knowledge and research and nobody else's; although, of course, I have learned much from other people, including readers of this thread and my report. As always, research is the result of a person standing upon the shoulders of others in order to see further.

Will you be doing 'original research' on the subject? Which professional and or related 'trade', or educational journals could the forum membership expect to read your text(s) in the future? Also if all the content and knowledge is exclusively your own, then why do you cite this forum, others and other authors works in your advertorial?

So, please, do not ask me to distribute Death of a Russian Bride in any other manner - it will not happen.
Please do not try to infer that this report is not my own work or that it represents the ideas of another person or business, neither is true, and I will not dignify such suggestions with responses.

So when our forum admin8 and you stated that you welcomed discourse and discussion on the subject of your advertorial1. Was that was only in formats and or on items you both deem worthy to remain, those which further your aims and are 'positive' and don't seems to mention the overt marketing aspects of your advertorial1?

It would also read and appear based on comments in the advertorial and on this forum by yourself and "Manny"7 that the 'work' has started as an original piece. But the future 'fee for service', consulting, and other pending services-items will be offered by yourself and probably in conjunction with other IMB business interests and service providers. It would also seem they are 'early adopters' of your idea which may just be an excellent sign for your future business venture(s) which spurned this advertorial. 

Take the words written at face value, deal with the ideas and issues as they appear to you.

Like the idea your presuming and furthering the idea people who go through this process and specifically the men are criminals; and that those who go through this process are engaging in criminality stereotypes?9

If you want to read what I have written then sign up, using a disposable email address if you choose.

Why would someone knowingly do that? So that you could accuse them of other crimes and obtaining your advertorial by illicit and unauthorized means later when you don't like how they portray your work? Does the above quote constitute your written and conscious decision to allow folks to utilize and access your document after providing you with false email information to do so?


Read my words and add to the conversation.

Lots of members have done that but there remain a lot of unanswered queries posed to you by various members in this thread. Do you intent to address those?

Every constructive post here and in other places is read and adds to my sum total of knowledge.

What is Andrew's definition and understanding of 'constructive' today?

I am doing something that, to the best of my knowledge has not been done before. It could not have been done without the help and support of many readers here and will not be concluded without your/their help.

Who here supported you and collaborated with you on this work?

And yes, if you pass this report onto other people who might be interested in it then I will happily pay you the princely sum of $1 per subscription. I want to spread this document. It is my choice and challenge.

Kindly explain your concept of your affiliate program and how it couldn't be considered a 'ponzi-scheme'.

Let us do something positive, eh?

Who's against doing something positive for those involved in this venture? What definitive tangible contributions do you believe are being made by yourself and this advertorial1?

I look forward to reading your forthright, comprehensive, complete, and continued constructive discourse on this subject.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CITATIONS:
1.) Please see the following links as primers on this principle and marketing tool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertorial, http://www.advertorial.org/ , http://www.advertorial.org/what-is-an-advertorial.html , http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advertorial
2.) *Author's Note: quotes can be provided as necessary and as requested as well as links for the curious.
3.) http://www.copyright.gov/, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright . These links are to get the reader started and more primary source information and sources can easily be provided.
4.)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Plagiarism
5.) a.
Quote from: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-30100.html
Under the "fair use" rule of copyright law, an author may make limited use of another author's work without asking permission. Fair use is based on the belief that the public is entitled to freely use portions of copyrighted materials for purposes of commentary and criticism. The fair use privilege is perhaps the most significant limitation on a copyright owner's exclusive rights. If you write or publish, you need a basic understanding of what is and is not fair use.

B.<Begin quote> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html=
 17 U.S.C. § 107

    Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phone records or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

           1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational
              purposes;
           2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
           3. the amount and substantial of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
           4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

    The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.[1]</quote>
*For some reason the quote coding isn't working properly on the froum for the above quoted text*

C.Also see http://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Copyright:_Fair_Use

6.) Death of the Russian Bride Published by Andrew Wilson, 'Andrewfi', Andrewfin', www.andrewwilsonnews.com, et.al, etc...
7.) http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13322.msg191215.html#msg191215 as just the first example. More can be provided if necessary.
8 Posts as "Manny, et.al" and the applicable link can be found here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13322.msg190928.html#msg190928 and http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13322.msg190951.html#msg190951
9 Death of the Russian Bride Published by Andrew Wilson, 'Andrewfi', Andrewfin', www.andrewwilsonnews.com, et.al, etc... as addressed on pages 1-5 and continued on page 13+
10 In regards to the author's copyright infrigement violation wheezes he was asked to provide a record of his actually registering his copyright and or his US Copyright application number. A search was performed using the database at the following link: http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&PAGE=First  . No granted or pending copyright licence application or granted applications for the author, his titled work or known aliases were found. The author was asked for this information privately and also for his EU-UK copyright license http://www.cla.co.uk/ and or pending application information. He was unable or unwilling to provide such requested information related searches in venues using the same information as the US based search also came up with no results.
11 In relation to citation #10 and others above I did some research and made some calls I was advised of the following which is paraphrased. Well the Andrew has made his wishes publicly known to apply the concept of the poor man's copyright and attempt to try to use that for justification it does have some 'weaknesses' in regards to his attempted justification and use of such.


I'm also sure many here are  aware of the international legal recognition of that fact that one isn't required to post a 'copyright' symbol even when the copyright has been registered (we all know you don't have a registered copyright for this work as has been already illustrated and proof has been provided).

Any lawyer who is in their first year out of law school will be able explain to you that the best and traditionally only litigiousness tenable position for you <an author of an original work> is to ensure that you have registered your copyright and your work with the appropriate agencies. Failure to do so places you in a potentially untenable and definitely expensive litigious position.

12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works
Quote
Copyright under the Berne Convention must be automatic; it is prohibited to require formal registration (note however that when the United States joined the Convention in 1988, they continued to make statutory damages and attorney's fees only available for registered works).
Also see:
http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html
13http://kb-law.info/wt_dev/kbc.php?article=48&view=print&land=US&lang=EN&mode=1
Quote from: http://kb-law.info/wt_dev/kbc.php?article=48&view=print&land=US&lang=EN&mode=1
Citation and Fair Use Under Berne Convention
According to article 10(1) of the Berne Convention, anyone has the right to take a relevant portion of somebody else’s work and copy it in his own work, provided attribution is given to the author. The citation should of course not go beyond what is necessary for the purpose of the citation. Citations are also permissible in case of reviews or other discussions of a work. [/size]

Article 10 Berne Convention states that a country is free to permit fair use of a work or not. Fair use in the Berne Convention is defined as "the utilization, to the extent justified by the purpose, of literary or artistic works by way of illustration in publications, broadcasts or sound or visual recordings for teaching, provided such utilization is compatible with fair practice."3

While the principles behind fair use are largely the same as behind the citation rights, it is possible that a certain usable work is considered a fair use, even though it is not a citation. For example, if somebody writes an article and gives it away for free, the author has himself severely limited the potential market and the value of his work.4

When copyrighted material is used without obtaining permission for the purpose of criticism, comment, news reporting, research, scholarship and non-profit educational uses then the use is considered to be fair.
33    http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/crashcourse/limitations/.
[/size]
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 02, 2011, 02:58:33 PM
Perhaps you might consider giving us a brief update on another thread. RW aren't all fluffy kittens, are they?


No update is needed... i continue to date but choose the easy way, remain in the EU... within 1 hours car driving, i can reach Holland, UK, Germany, France and Luxemburg...

In my own country, we have 22% of foreign citizen from all around the world.

If i wish ex-USSR ladies, i can found them in EU... Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia are now EU state and i can make a trip to these country like you make a trip to a other US state.

These forum is called "Russian Ukrainian Adventures"... my actual "adventures" are European adventures

Do not for one second imagine that not being American makes you in some way immune to the processes now in play.
You are not.
The same memes that are becoming powerful in the USA exist in other places too.

Well, it will not happen in EU during my lifetime... here, everything political is very very slow ( 27 countries need to agree ).

A other thing, some of the tools needed for use something similar to the IMBRA don't exist... by example, we have no sex offender public registries... in fact any public offender registries will be illegal since it is again the privacy laws... more, any offender who have pay his mistake ( jail time, communauty service, ... ) will have a clean police report after some time... Here, we have laws related to domestic violence too but you are presumed innocent until proved guilty...

Point is that our legal system is so much different from these of the US that simply implement something like the IMBRA is almost impossible...

At the same time, one aspect of the argument is quite true--if U.S. citizens are sufficiently discouraged that their numbers decrease substantially, that will make the introduction agency business so unprofitable that it will indeed drive many to seek other business opportunities. That alone will affect bride seekers no matter where they may be from.

Well, it can be true for business who work only with US citizen... but the definitions of an International Marriage Broker have a very interesting exempts for dating services that do not match U.S. citizens/residents with aliens as their principal business and that charge comparable rates and offer comparable services to all clients, regardless of gender or country of citizenship.

When i was in the business, around 50% of my male customer was from US... 100% of the female customer from the FSU... so, only 25% of my total customer was from US... i think that it qualify for US not being my principal business... e-mail address was free for everybody... translation service, airplane service, gift service was with similar price for everybody...

Well, there is enough back door in the laws for marriage agency to adapt a little and continue their business like normal... simply need to change a little the business model, not more sell contact information from FSU ladies to US citizen but sell services who can be used by everybody...

For info, i have just collect some information... from 15154 profile of men seeking a FSU bride, only 3962 of them ( 26 % ) are from USA... let say that 20% of them give up due to the IMBRA... it will mean a loss of 5% of the total amount of customer... will these little 5% make the introduction agency business so unprofitable ?

And profit margin from agency are huge... I remember the time when i was sending potential customer to some marriage agency, where i was receiving 30-35% of the money spend by these customer on the marriage site...  pretty sure that profit margin of agency are around the 50% or more, that a small increase on the price for all customer will compensate any potential IMBRA loss... in fact, it is very possible that some not very honest marriage agency will use the IMBRA excuse to increase their price in a way that it will generate more income that before...

There is a need of solid statistical data who show that the IMBRA have a huge influence on the number of customer who can lead to the dead of the international marriage agency business... yes, there will be fewer customer... these not motivated enough, the listed in sex offender public registries, the who sponsor numerous marriage visa without being sure that they have found the right woman, these... in fact, the loss of customer will mainly be the low end customer...

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: leeholsen on January 02, 2011, 03:17:14 PM
Well after reading a little of this thread it leaves me with the feeling we should shut this forum now so we are not the last left in when the light is turned off  (:)

But for all those Americans get over now its your chance to beat the pre-sale rush and end up with the left overs that did not sell  :chuckle:

I feel sorry for our old mate Cuffy he is still saving his money to be in a good and stable position, and nobody has told him someones already shut the shop!! :-X

 :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

wow !

this thing really took off. should've expected it as putting down something many are putting so much time and emotion into. i suppose it could be similar to trying to discuss politics with someone.

i actually think the opposite of "russian bride business is dead". i think specifically,  brides from Russia will be in greater numbers starting within a year or two and increasing as i think the USA, definitely Canda and most european countries are recovering and from what I read, Putin's Russia is becoming even more authoritative.

i don't remember where but i read an article lately that Putin is firing governors and mayors at will, basically ignoring the democratic process. if that keeps increasing as the west recovers; women will not want to stay.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 02, 2011, 03:30:52 PM
ECR, contrary to your rantings above, and insistence at quoting US law, I shall tell you again what I told you in PM to make it clear for you.


As I said to you earlier:

Eric, no parts of that report will be republished here without Andrews consent. That's it. I spend enough of my time taking action against others that steal my and/or this forums copyright, I will not see it done here to others. Quote all the quasi laws you want till you are blue in the face for all I care.  :coffeeread:

Any further ranting about copyright or US law will be split off and put in the off topic section. Any copying and pasting of reams of stuff from other sites or huge images will go a similar direction. Any breaches of copyright will be deleted by the mods.

This topic is for discussion of the report and associated subjects. Copyright and layman's interpretation of US law on forums are not associated subjects.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: 2tallbill on January 02, 2011, 04:33:58 PM
I am not more in the business of Russian bride, not more married to Russian Bride, not more seeking Russian bride... i have give up... now, i simply date without border limit...

RW aren't all fluffy kittens, are they?

Tom I am nominating this as quote of the week
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 02, 2011, 04:42:18 PM
This topic "ECR844 Discusses Copyright Laws Around The World" has been moved to Off Topic & Heated Discussion (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=12.0).

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=13363.0 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=13363.0)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: 2tallbill on January 02, 2011, 05:03:43 PM

My apologies Andrew so you don't sell fake Viagra, then it must be the fake Rolex watch brochures that I keep getting in email, so similar to your brochure.  As I mentioned before I've downloaded and read your report that's what gave me the impression that you were an Internet marketer.  The brochure was so much spam.     

Westy, I don't want to argue for Andrew he is more than capable of doing it himself
and, I haven't found time to read his article yet.

Did Andrew offer to sell either Fake Viagra or fake Rolex's or anything else illegal or
fraudulent to you? If so please inform the admin here immediately. If not then I would
think that you wouldn't imply that he did. 

Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately. If Andrew sent you bulk messages then you should let the admin here know. If you got ONE or TWO mail items / brochures after providing your email address
to him then you should not call it spam.

Let's say I disagree with Brass on something. I highlight what he said (removing all
the unrelated crap so as to not confuse the issue) then explain why I disagree with
it or why his reasoning is invalid or why his facts are wrong. I don't call him a fraud,
or a spammer or anything like that.

Udachi

Bill
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Derjk on January 02, 2011, 05:11:45 PM
wow dude, you got a whole lotta time on your hands. I think you're fighting the wrong fight. So maybe the guy is setting things up to make a few bucks, big deal. I clicked on the ad and briefed the website (didn't download the file or sign up for anything). 3 minutes and a quick deduction dispeled the sensationalized gorry imagery as, "big deal." IMBRA laws and state modifications to them, further helps women from becoming potential victims of criminals, psychopaths, and sociopaths, more power to their protection. Sure its gonna be an even bigger pain in the arse to navigate through more paperwork but it wasn't to make WM lives easier in the first place.

They should do something similar to those that try to adopt children from Eastern Europe too.

Everything else is just mindless, winded, dribble. Why the fixation?

"Everyone,"

I've already announced publicly and privately to those with and without commercial interest that I'll be sharing my thoughts, criticism, and opinions about the work as I see fit. Furthermore those criticisms, praise, commentary and use of the authors own wo...... blah blah blah et al
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: cufflinks on January 02, 2011, 06:58:12 PM
Amazing - I replied in an in-depth and considered fashion to a "jovial" slam by Sparky that Cuffy and Americans are too late to the FSUW party and I was "moded" out to the "off topic and heated discussion" zone quicker than the blink of an eye - clearly indicative that the mods and management have more than just a few dogs in this hunt.  :smokin:

My "moded" post for posterity sakes http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,10678.msg191350.html#msg191350

As I haved stated prior I have no dog in this hunt and no axe to grind just interested in a novel marketing concept as it plays out.

IMBRA or Not - I really do not use agencies preferring professional introductions as a result of business meetings, seminars, networking etc... so unless they make business and trade between the FSU and USA illegal as in the old soviet times I really am not too worried in any way what so ever. 

IMHO I was completely ON TOPIC and this hair-trigger modding shows RUA has clearly taken a page out of the another forum play book here.

Appears I may have unwittingly struck a raw nerve or shorted out the RUA 3rd rail or both  :snivel:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: cufflinks on January 02, 2011, 07:38:25 PM
No update is needed... i continue to date but choose the easy way, remain in the EU... within 1 hours car driving, i can reach Holland, UK, Germany, France and Luxemburg...

In my own country, we have 22% of foreign citizen from all around the world.

If i wish ex-USSR ladies, i can found them in EU... Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia are now EU state and i can make a trip to these country like you make a trip to a other US state.

These forum is called "Russian Ukrainian Adventures"... my actual "adventures" are European adventures

Do not for one second imagine that not being American makes you in some way immune to the processes now in play.
You are not.
The same memes that are becoming powerful in the USA exist in other places too.

Well, it will not happen in EU during my lifetime... here, everything political is very very slow ( 27 countries need to agree ).

A other thing, some of the tools needed for use something similar to the IMBRA don't exist... by example, we have no sex offender public registries... in fact any public offender registries will be illegal since it is again the privacy laws... more, any offender who have pay his mistake ( jail time, communauty service, ... ) will have a clean police report after some time... Here, we have laws related to domestic violence too but you are presumed innocent until proved guilty...

Point is that our legal system is so much different from these of the US that simply implement something like the IMBRA is almost impossible...


Well, there is enough back door in the laws for marriage agency to adapt a little and continue their business like normal... simply need to change a little the business model, not more sell contact information from FSU ladies to US citizen but sell services who can be used by everybody...

There is a need of solid statistical data who show that the IMBRA have a huge influence on the number of customer who can lead to the dead of the international marriage agency business... yes, there will be fewer customer... these not motivated enough, the listed in sex offender public registries, the who sponsor numerous marriage visa without being sure that they have found the right woman, these... in fact, the loss of customer will mainly be the low end customer...

My point exactly - most likely to weed out the address and letter writing mills in the USA market whereas as the US economy rebounds over the next 5 years high end "fantasy tourism" operators will do well - they now cater to both married power-couples and with a 50% divorce rate "power singles" - folks that drop big bucks to rent a discreetly secured chateau and gourmet chef for a week or two wherever... with romantic photo safaris from hot air balloons over their fave locales/vineyards with a gourmet picnic basket and beverages courtesy their private chef.

This can only be a growth business in the FSU and some clients will be couples and some singles - and with private matchmakers in NYC charging $5K for basic intros to start and up to $100K for a successful intro that leads to marriage - high end fantasy tours are similarly priced - as Bruno astutely mentions losses most likely on the low end of the market which is where most of the scamming occurs anyway.  Private tour operators and matchmakers factor in the cost of security and private investigators for discreet background checks.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 02, 2011, 08:19:42 PM
  He has asked for comments on the topic and I happen to have some personal expertise on the matter having dealt with immigrants over 10 years and speaking a second language that is extremely common with immigrants in the Vancouver area.  Plus my ex is Chinese born and raised, not Russian but still any legislation wouldn't be based on specific countries.

You've got access and experience in this area, Westy. Don't waste it on ad hominem quips. Debate the report if you're so inclined. :)

Brass

 Brass you know enough about the CIC, and from what I have followed by Minister Jason Kenney is that a IMBRA type regulation to protect the sponsored person/s is not going to happen.  He wants to rid the system of non genuine marriages, and possibly protect the sponsor. While the problem isn't with eastern Europeans , it has much more to do with the 3 countries mentioned up above. What he really needs to do is enforce the current rules, and slow immigration down so the staff can do a proper job in screening what any outsider can see is a fraud. Right now they simply don't have the manpower to do any of that.  What other country allows someone permanent landed status as soon as they land on Canada soil? ..... none.
 Rarely do they even have a interview with the sponsored person. Restricting our movement abroad by banning us from having a relationship because of a 3rd party is ridiculous!  CIC can't cope with the rules in place now, and there is no extra money that will flow into CIC, so its a mute point for us Canucks. Can't believe I'm even posting in this silly thread.
 
 Now go get on a plane, you're overdue!   :smokin:



Perhaps you might consider giving us a brief update on another thread. RW aren't all fluffy kittens, are they?


No update is needed... i continue to date but choose the easy way, remain in the EU... within 1 hours car driving, i can reach Holland, UK, Germany, France and Luxemburg...

In my own country, we have 22% of foreign citizen from all around the world.

If i wish ex-USSR ladies, i can found them in EU... Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia are now EU state and i can make a trip to these country like you make a trip to a other US state.

These forum is called "Russian Ukrainian Adventures"... my actual "adventures" are European adventures


 I think you already did.  ;D
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 02, 2011, 09:37:18 PM
dwfunk,

I've moved your two posts over here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13363.msg191322.html#msg191322).

Cuffy, your eye candy post went over as well.

Let's keep this thread on topic.

Brass

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 02, 2011, 10:08:54 PM


IMBRA or Not - I really do not use agencies preferring professional introductions as a result of business meetings, seminars, networking etc... so unless they make business and trade between the FSU and USA illegal as in the old soviet times I really am not too worried in any way what so ever. 

So how's that "professional introductions as the result of business meetings..." stuff working out for you, Cuffy?

On another thread, you mentioned having been involved in this pursuit for a decade now--are you any closer to actually finding a real, live "Mrs. Cuffy" with your method or are you simply still making up excuses these days?

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on January 02, 2011, 10:10:58 PM
What he really needs to do is enforce the current rules, and slow immigration down so the staff can do a proper job in screening what any outsider can see is a fraud. Right now they simply don't have the manpower to do any of that.

The thing is, the sponsorship application already try to identify if a sponsor has a history of abuse. One of the questions in in IMM1344EA:

"In the five years preceding your application, have you been convicted of a sexual offence or an offence against the person in relation to one of your family members?"

The form also asks:

"Have you been charged with an offence under an Act of Parliament punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of at least 10 years?"

In signing the sponsorship form, you are authorizing CIC to look up your criminal record:

"By submitting this form, you consent to the release to the Canadian government authorities of all records and information any government authority, including police, judicial and state authorities in all countries in which you have lived may possess on your behalf. This information will be used to assist in evaluating your ability to sponsor or to co-sign."

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 02, 2011, 10:44:14 PM

 Brass you know enough about the CIC, and from what I have followed by Minister Jason Kenney is that a IMBRA type regulation to protect the sponsored person/s is not going to happen.  He wants to rid the system of non genuine marriages, and possibly protect the sponsor. While the problem isn't with eastern Europeans , it has much more to do with the 3 countries mentioned up above. What he really needs to do is enforce the current rules, and slow immigration down so the staff can do a proper job in screening what any outsider can see is a fraud. Right now they simply don't have the manpower to do any of that.  What other country allows someone permanent landed status as soon as they land on Canada soil? ..... none.
 Rarely do they even have a interview with the sponsored person. Restricting our movement abroad by banning us from having a relationship because of a 3rd party is ridiculous!  CIC can't cope with the rules in place now, and there is no extra money that will flow into CIC, so its a mute point for us Canucks. Can't believe I'm even posting in this silly thread.
 

Alright, just typed the most brilliant response to your post ever but lost the whole darn thing so here's the Readers Digest version...What Misha said; and

Besides, once the IMBRA type laws/regs were enacted the person seeking the relationship and agency facilitating it would shoulder the expense and time needed to satisfy the law. No skin off the CIC's back.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on January 03, 2011, 09:46:59 AM
Besides, once the IMBRA type laws/regs were enacted the person seeking the relationship and agency facilitating it would shoulder the expense and time needed to satisfy the law. No skin off the CIC's back.

The thing is, I have yet to hear of anybody or any organization pushing for IMBRA-like laws. Yes, some academics and community groups will start worrying about mail-order brides, but once you actually tell them that Canadian laws are actually radically different from American laws (no fiancé visas, no requirements to stay married, permanent residence effectively given upon arrival with not conditional permanent residence, spouse legally responsible for providing financial assistance for three years, etc...) this usually addresses most of the issues. The focus then turns to educating women as to the rights they have as PR holders in Canada.

The fact that Canada has no conditional permanent residence status pretty much addresses most of the potential dangers that IMBRA is trying to minimize. The biggest fear expressed by those who worry about Canada's "mail-order brides" is that women marrying Canadians won't know their rights, notably the fact that they don't have to stay with their husbands. All Canada has to do to resolve this problem is to send a letter to all sponsored spouses in their language while still in their country telling them that they are under no obligation to stay with their spouses if things do not work out and that their spouse is financially responsible for them for three years.

IMHO, the one thing that would really kill the "Russian Bride Business" would be if the United States and other countries were to eliminate the fiancé visa and require that all applicants demonstrate that they have a legitimate marriage before being given a green card. This would dry up the market pretty quickly, as it did in Canada. This last round of reforms to Canada's immigration laws certainly tightened up the application process as we now have to provide a detailed account of how we met and provide proof that we had an established relationship. In other words, applicants for permanent residence with a spousal sponsorship must not provide much more evidence that they do not simply have a marriage of convenience.

 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 03, 2011, 11:19:41 AM
The thing is, I have yet to hear of anybody or any organization pushing for IMBRA-like laws. Yes, some academics and community groups will start worrying about mail-order brides, but once you actually tell them that Canadian laws are actually radically different from American laws (no fiancé visas, no requirements to stay married, permanent residence effectively given upon arrival with not conditional permanent residence, spouse legally responsible for providing financial assistance for three years, etc...) this usually addresses most of the issues. The focus then turns to educating women as to the rights they have as PR holders in Canada.

The fact that Canada has no conditional permanent residence status pretty much addresses most of the potential dangers that IMBRA is trying to minimize. The biggest fear expressed by those who worry about Canada's "mail-order brides" is that women marrying Canadians won't know their rights, notably the fact that they don't have to stay with their husbands. All Canada has to do to resolve this problem is to send a letter to all sponsored spouses in their language while still in their country telling them that they are under no obligation to stay with their spouses if things do not work out and that their spouse is financially responsible for them for three years.

IMHO, the one thing that would really kill the "Russian Bride Business" would be if the United States and other countries were to eliminate the fiancé visa and require that all applicants demonstrate that they have a legitimate marriage before being given a green card. This would dry up the market pretty quickly, as it did in Canada. This last round of reforms to Canada's immigration laws certainly tightened up the application process as we now have to provide a detailed account of how we met and provide proof that we had an established relationship. In other words, applicants for permanent residence with a spousal sponsorship must not provide much more evidence that they do not simply have a marriage of convenience.

I was just addressing the cost factor that Don brought up regarding lack of funding (CIC).

Yes. However, I disagree that the special interest groups are not pushing for more IMBRA type and I stress *type* laws/regs. Because you're right for the most part that our process is in some ways already more strict regarding vetting for marriages of convenience. As we touched on above, these organizations do not differentiate between legitimate apps and scam apps in effect lumping everyone in the same category. Don brought up that it's the other groups that cause the problems not the East European apps, yet we all go through the same process. If they continue to tighten up the process, everyone is caught in the grinder.

From 2006; this author won an award for her take on off shore relationships/marriage. I get the impression (reading other documentation) this is how most of the special interest groups view foreign women immigrating for the purposes of marriage...

Mail Order Brides In Canada (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UgV1a6j5DSUJ:www.chumirethicsfoundation.ca/files/pdf/Mail%2520Order%2520Brides_2006ChumirEssayStephanieChau.pdf+canada+imbra+mail+order+bride+chau&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiA_OPiaHoP-HBJQtiJbIJeebrHOyeTCQde2d423ryc9ENumcSgnmnfy3nTlYK4kIT2JMZWlluKWla4AOPoUazJot-JHWxzDN6m7ni_JTcGIzsj4DghORbXqxM9eEeVHDX6ETvF&sig=AHIEtbTD0yf0LwO7W_yDcyRu5EY_03pWdQ)

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with some of her points, there is abuse, violence and the system needed overhauling (past tense) at the time. Note she also states IMBRA type regs are not the way to go. She advocates continued (presumably) government education of a sponsored person - in otherwords, monitoring of your marriage and by extention private family life.

This is what I meant by making the process for all practical purposes untenable. Do I think that this type of law might be enacted? No, not really but it's what some of these advocacy groups are pushing and any tightening of the system will not have a caveat stating In Misha, Don and Brass we trust...All else go through the process.:chuckle:

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ade on January 03, 2011, 01:26:00 PM

So what's the real purpose behind all this,  this, whatever this thing is?


-david

One theory is that whoever gives him their email gets the possible privilege of being a tier under him in the new pyramid scheme come dating site known as planetlovematch.com

It's as plausible a theory as I've heard and it seems HRB is involved - ring any bells?


.... Edit.... and another post disappears...  :censored:  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 03, 2011, 02:28:01 PM
I wonder....How many times does 'Andrew Wilson, et.al." mention CIC in his report or the UK border agency? Anyone????
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 03, 2011, 03:29:14 PM
I wonder....How many times does 'Andrew Wilson, et.al." mention CIC in his report or the UK border agency? Anyone????
Why don't you tell us Eric?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 03, 2011, 04:25:57 PM
Who better to answer than the author?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 03, 2011, 04:33:51 PM
Glad to see the member with the big annoying advertisment on each page is now properly listed as a Commercial Member.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 03, 2011, 06:51:31 PM
 ECR , Froid those comments have no use in this advert, lets stay on topic and continue to ask questions with out gaining any answers. 
 
 Andy if I get your report can I put down any email addy?  Or can I go into the members logs here and steal some members who haven't been around in years and use that one? 
 I'm not too good at PC stuff, and to be honest I have tried to make a new addy , but I get lost in the clicks required to get it done.

  ECR did he talk about the UK or Canada's spousal policys?  Just answer with a nod.

 Brass I scanned about half that report ,and I'm not so sure shes on the ball with the issues. It rang out like a TV show I was on, buying my bride. These are the authors words, 'buying his bride'. I tend to tune out quick when shit like that gets said.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 04, 2011, 07:38:04 AM
Andrew,



Please explain how 3 State laws that are more than 8 years old qualify as "recent" events that lead to this catastrophic conclusion you are pushing?




-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 04, 2011, 10:08:06 AM
Brass, I started reading the report you posted and so far I have noticed some important issues:

1) Sweeping generalizations of MOB as human trafficking, probably based on biased reports. For example, Dr. Hughes of URI states that "Although some women may find the romance and opportunities they seek, many become victims of violence, sexual exploitation, and sex trafficking." It doesn't matter that the reference(s) for this statement is her own paper(s) regarding the sexual expoitation of MOB from the FSU. I wonder how she got her data.

2) The UN definition of human trafficking, according to the author, would very well apply to a well-to-do single American from another state vacationing in Florida; meeting an American waitress at the hotel he stays; hit it off; developing a relationship and getting married.

3) The MOB industry is responsible for this mayhem with its constant advertisement of "buying" (as 'include in shopping cart') a "traditional" woman that will submit to any man. Unfortunately, this kind of advert will attract the worse the US can offer.

4) Forums like this also add wood to the fire by disparaging AW as fat slob feminazis. For someone on the outside looking in this sounds as women hating, which it really is.

5) Success stories are swept under the rug and most probably would make any attempt to stiffle their experience as "the exception to the rule."

I could go on but you get the idea.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 04, 2011, 11:09:09 AM
Brass, I started reading the report you posted and so far I have noticed some important issues:

1) Sweeping generalizations of MOB as human trafficking, probably based on biased reports. For example, Dr. Hughes of URI states that "Although some women may find the romance and opportunities they seek, many become victims of violence, sexual exploitation, and sex trafficking." It doesn't matter that the reference(s) for this statement is her own paper(s) regarding the sexual expoitation of MOB from the FSU. I wonder how she got her data.

2) The UN definition of human trafficking, according to the author, would very well apply to a well-to-do single American from another state vacationing in Florida; meeting an American waitress at the hotel he stays; hit it off; developing a relationship and getting married.

3) The MOB industry is responsible for this mayhem with its constant advertisement of "buying" (as 'include in shopping cart') a "traditional" woman that will submit to any man. Unfortunately, this kind of advert will attract the worse the US can offer.

4) Forums like this also add wood to the fire by disparaging AW as fat slob feminazis. For someone on the outside looking in this sounds as women hating, which it really is.

5) Success stories are swept under the rug and most probably would make any attempt to stiffle their experience as "the exception to the rule."

I could go on but you get the idea.

Yep, I do.

Don posted something quite relevent to my premise though...In so many words he states ...started to read and tuned out ...this is why these laws and regs (in many countries) are being introduced. Because while the agencies/people involved are ignoring wording and submitions such as this essay... the people responsible for enacting laws are not.

I posted earlier that ...while the (mostly) men who would seek a foreign relationship or the agencies/companies who would facilitate same, are really not paying attention...Exactly what happened in the US five years ago. Don's reaction illustrates my point.

Brass

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 04, 2011, 12:01:24 PM
Still, I don't think that the sky is falling.

Let's look at these 'research' on the MOB industry. I did read the testimony of Dr. Hughes after searching for it on Google. I was not surprised that the good Dr. is using her academic position to fight "human trafficking" in the FSU. While this is a real issue, in the FSU, my impression is that for her to get grants money here at URI she has to tie this issue to the US. Anyone who has been researching in academy will agree with this. It would be extremely difficult to get federal grants for research in human trafficking in other countries.

I skimmed at some of her research and, not being an anthropologist, I could ask her to justify her findings (i.e., some may find romance, many end up in human trafficking IN THE US) to make her redo her work. That I will ever get there? Not my intent and the women lobby will make sure I don't.

I'm not familiar with other countries introducing laws like this. What I know is that the UN facilitated the no visa between Israel and UA in trying to stop the influx of sex slaves to Israel. Very different from IMBRA.

Regarding the IMB, I doubt very much they will disappear. Too much money for these guys let it go under. I believe unions will disappear before any MOB agencies will.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 04, 2011, 01:21:43 PM
Regarding the IMB, I doubt very much they will disappear. Too much money for these guys let it go under.

You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 04, 2011, 03:35:34 PM
Regarding the IMB, I doubt very much they will disappear. Too much money for these guys let it go under.

You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.

How will it evolve? By utilizing and paying Andrew and his business partners as consultants?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 04, 2011, 03:46:25 PM
Regarding the IMB, I doubt very much they will disappear. Too much money for these guys let it go under.

You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.

How will it evolve? By utilizing and paying Andrew and his business partners as consultants?

If you received the document, you will receive the next parts. More will be explained then.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 05, 2011, 07:55:57 AM
Quote
Don posted something quite relevent to my premise though...In so many words he states ...started to read and tuned out ...this is why these laws and regs (in many countries) are being introduced.

That isn't WHY they are being introduced.  It may be why they are being introduced more easily is all. 

Personally I jumped through the hoops of the Canadian process which can be very intrusive and while I hated doing so at the time I did not see harm in providing personal information to a nameless government official.  And from reading stories in one Canadian based forum for visas I can see the apparent need for such a process as well. 

IMBRA on the other hand seems to be more intrusive upfront and gives information to unknown persons and companies.  I don't like that as much as trusting in the nameless government official. 

In the end is the business dead?  No and never will be.  If people can't find their match locally...they will begin to look further...and some small percentage will still look to FSU or beyond.  IMBRA laws and their like or not. 

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 05, 2011, 08:06:04 AM
Quote
You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.

Then why the sensationalism about it being dead and gruesome image? 

Quote
If you received the document, you will receive the next parts. More will be explained then.

Ah I get it...it's the hook with the usual marketing coming later.  Sign up now!  Limited time offer!  Call now and receive a free bookmark!  Sorry Manny but you can't blame some of us for being cynical seeing such language being used by you. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 05, 2011, 09:25:15 AM
That isn't WHY they are being introduced.  It may be why they are being introduced more easily is all. 

Yeah, I think most get what I'm trying to convey it's in my last four or five posts.

Quote from: froid
In the end is the business dead?  No and never will be.  If people can't find their match locally...they will begin to look further...and some small percentage will still look to FSU or beyond.  IMBRA laws and their like or not.

The agency business model (US specifically, worldwide generally) in it's current form will not survive. I give it two years.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 05, 2011, 09:28:48 AM
Quote
The agency business model (US specifically, worldwide generally) in it's current form will not survive. I give it two years.

That is just change...hardly the death of an industry. 

What's that saying?  You get what you pay for? 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 05, 2011, 09:48:49 AM
That is just change...hardly the death of an industry. 

What's that saying?  You get what you pay for?

Well, if you consider the current business model for the electric typewriter industry as 'change' rather than 'death' then I suppose you'd be correct. :chuckle:

I have no idea how you surmise that my last four or so posts on the subject infers "you get what you pay for".

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 05, 2011, 10:10:15 AM
Quote
Well, if you consider the current business model for the electric typewriter industry as 'change' rather than 'death' then I suppose you'd be correct.

Comparing the electric typewriter industry to the foreign bride industry is hardly comparing apples to apples.  It's not like a new computerized model of foreign bride has come along has it?  (If one has does anyone have the brochure so I can see what I am missing?) 

A better comparison might be to that of tobacco perhaps?  Being taxed more and forced to put warnings and pictures all over their packaging has not killed the industry.  Merely shrunk it. 

Or better yet...guns might be more appropriate.  The government doesn't want you misusing guns just like they don't want you mistreating foreign brides.  Therefore they make you jump through some hoops and put some laws in the way to make it harder for the undesirables to get those guns and/or brides.  Less people will get guns and if the law is working as intended the undesireables will not. 

Of course they can always get them on the black market or smuggle them in from elsewhere. 

The "you get what you pay for" comment is more a general comment.  Not directed at you. :) 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 05, 2011, 10:30:52 AM
A better comparison might be to that of tobacco perhaps?  Being taxed more and forced to put warnings and pictures all over their packaging has not killed the industry.  Merely shrunk it. 

Ah, but there is a reason for the government to keep the tobacco industry alive (if not on life support) in Canada - revenue. Further, like our immigration model there's a fair amount of black market activity. And like the industry/agencies based in Canada, they too are under constant attack by 'special interest' groups who constantly are nipping around the profit edges. I don't think the MOB industry (as a whole) has the recources the tobacco industry does.

Boils down again to the process and business model compatibility. If the process becomes too lengthy/difficult (untenable), it becomes unprofitable and doors will start closing.[edit: meaning the immigration process]

Quote from: froid
Or better yet...guns might be more appropriate.  The government doesn't want you misusing guns just like they don't want you mistreating foreign brides.  Therefore they make you jump through some hoops and put some laws in the way to make it harder for the undesirables to get those guns and/or brides.  Less people will get guns and if the law is working as intended the undesireables will not. 

I can get on board with this but if we're doing it for off shore marriages why not domestic? RW, Asian, South American or Canadian citizen, abuse is abuse. And again like the MOB industry, there are advocacy groups, gun law proponants and the like constantly nipping around the edges.

Maybe not a bad thing for all three industries (to have watchdogs) but I'd suggest one of the three has nowhere near the resources the other two have. (imo)

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 05, 2011, 11:06:41 AM
Quote
Maybe not a bad thing for all three industries (to have watchdogs) but I'd suggest one of the three has nowhere near the resources the other two have. (imo)

MOB industry also isn't as big a target as the other two either.  It will all come down to percentages.  Raise taxes on cigarettes...10% quit and maybe some companies go under or make less money.  Make it more difficult to get a gun...A few wackos don't get guns...and ammo manufacturers make less.  Put some hurdles in the path of a Western man trying to gain happiness...maybe a few less look that way...a few agencies make less or dissappear.  What percentage? 


Somehow I think the alluring beauty of the Russian women would still make western men look that direction.  Maybe a few more would give up looking at the paperwork however. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 05, 2011, 11:27:07 AM
What percentage? 

Rhetorical, I know. However, it might depend on how big their US clientle (per Canadian based agency) is?

Quote from: froid
Somehow I think the alluring beauty of the Russian women would still make western men look that direction.  Maybe a few more would give up looking at the paperwork however.

If the process is tightened up further, that old adage regarding airline security comes to mind; You absolutely have the right not to be screened prior to boarding - but you won't be getting on the airplane. ;D

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: djfourmoney on January 05, 2011, 01:52:03 PM
What percentage? 

Rhetorical, I know. However, it might depend on how big their US clientle (per Canadian based agency) is?

Quote from: froid
Somehow I think the alluring beauty of the Russian women would still make western men look that direction.  Maybe a few more would give up looking at the paperwork however.

If the process is tightened up further, that old adage regarding airline security comes to mind; You absolutely have the right not to be screened prior to boarding - but you won't be getting on the airplane. ;D

Brass

 Maybe not on a plane but you can still take the Queen Mary 2 across the Atlantic.

 You can also fly out of Mexico but we won't get into that.

 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 05, 2011, 03:32:07 PM

If the process is tightened up further, that old adage regarding airline security comes to mind; You absolutely have the right not to be screened prior to boarding - but you won't be getting on the airplane. ;D

Brass

 Maybe not on a plane but you can still take the Queen Mary 2 across the Atlantic.

 You can also fly out of Mexico but we won't get into that.


     :chuckle:


   I think half this thread should be tossed somewhere that deals with Canadian sponsorship, as it has sweet tweet to do with Andy's 'ground breaking' report. Manny even stated on RMP that it won't affect Canuck's, just American's.
 So all the Halloween like gore is lost on most people who contribute to this forum. 
 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 05, 2011, 03:37:07 PM
Don, according to you elsewhere, this topic is over-moderated as it is.  :-\

You cant have it all ways.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 05, 2011, 04:02:57 PM
 This topic is a lot of things!  :chuckle:  I think I have visited RMP maybe a handful of times over the years. I thought it died out last year, at least thats what was implied by the boys here, that much I do remember along with your battle cry, ' Merge or Die! '   :ROFL:    Top drawer material Manny!   tiphat
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 05, 2011, 06:03:22 PM
Quote
When you have downloaded the document and digested the contents, you can use this topic for discussion about it.

Ok I used a garbage email account and signed up just to SEE.  I didn't like the obvious internet marketing links and methods involved in getting it but hey, Manny can get his $1 off my curiosity and it's no skin off my back.  So anyway downloaded it...read it and wasn't impressed since it had no details at all and no substance beyond what was already thrown around here in the forums.  Just looked like the usual teaser marketing with more coming later.  On top of it I surfed down to some of the original domains just to look as well and found even more internet marketing icky stuff.  If you ask ME...that is the REAL dirty barrel.  I especially liked the name of the "program" involved...The List Virus...virus indeed.  Quick call a doctor the forum is infected!

Anyway with all this talk of copyrights and quoted text being removed here there and everywhere I found this site to be the most enlightening...
www.thedeathofadsense.com (http://www.thedeathofadsense.com)

Andrew is there a reason you basically did a search and replace job from this other website?  Just replacing "Adsense" with "Russian Bride".  The design, format, layout and much of the text is identical.  Is this considered fair use?  Just wondering.  Hell I got real curious and even downloaded the report on Adsense as well.  Looks like you did a better job replacing the text from that one.  Shame you still copied the format, section headings and style.  Does the original author know about your new site?

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 05, 2011, 06:28:18 PM
Quote
When you have downloaded the document and digested the contents, you can use this topic for discussion about it.

Ok I used a garbage email account and signed up just to SEE.  I didn't like the obvious internet marketing links and methods involved in getting it but hey, Manny can get his $1 off my curiosity and it's no skin off my back.  So anyway downloaded it...read it and wasn't impressed since it had no details at all and no substance beyond what was already thrown around here in the forums.  Just looked like the usual teaser marketing with more coming later.  On top of it I surfed down to some of the original domains just to look as well and found even more internet marketing icky stuff.  If you ask ME...that is the REAL dirty barrel.  I especially liked the name of the "program" involved...The List Virus...virus indeed.  Quick call a doctor the forum is infected!

Anyway with all this talk of copyrights and quoted text being removed here there and everywhere I found this site to be the most enlightening...
www.thedeathofadsense.com (http://www.thedeathofadsense.com)

Andrew is there a reason you basically did a search and replace job from this other website?  Just replacing "Adsense" with "Russian Bride".  The design, format, layout and much of the text is identical.  Is this considered fair use?  Just wondering.  Hell I got real curious and even downloaded the report on Adsense as well.  Looks like you did a better job replacing the text from that one.  Shame you still copied the format, section headings and style.  Does the original author know about your new site?

Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention.  Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil.  Is this legal?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 05, 2011, 06:42:02 PM
Smacks of plagerisim. Which I believe would also be covered under the TOS. So does this mean that the thread and ads will come down as well?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Paul on January 05, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention.  Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil.  Is this legal?

It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 05, 2011, 07:22:01 PM
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention.  Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil.  Is this legal?

It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.

Paul what you're saying is that Andrew's website isn't a slick, creative site but a quick copy and paste job.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Paul on January 05, 2011, 07:51:58 PM
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention.  Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil.  Is this legal?

It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.

Paul what you're saying is that Andrew's website isn't a slick, creative site but a quick copy and paste job.

It looks like Andrew and the adsense site are using a get-rich-quick by writing articles internet company called "The List Virus", which does not offer its customers many options.

Using the same template and intro text is nothing to get worked up over.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 05, 2011, 08:27:22 PM
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention.  Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil.  Is this legal?

It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.

Paul what you're saying is that Andrew's website isn't a slick, creative site but a quick copy and paste job.

It looks like Andrew and the adsense site are using a get-rich-quick by writing articles internet company called "The List Virus", which does not offer its customers many options.

Using the same template and intro text is nothing to get worked up over.

Paul, if Andrew is using a template with limited options that undoubtedly means it's cheap.  So not only is his website a quick copy and paste job but it is based on a cheap template commonly found on the Internet.  What does that say for the final product?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 05, 2011, 08:31:51 PM
If the process becomes too lengthy/difficult (untenable), it becomes unprofitable ...

Now sure that it is true... more lenghty process mean more letter exchange and traduction work...

These big marriages agency are business... mean that they seek money... a US guy who date a FSU girl use a lot of money who go directly in the wallet of the marriage agency... once married, no more money go to the marriage agency...

Of course, there is these few ethical marriage agency, with only a few ladies that they interview personal ( bad business choice, it is so easy to use a web form without any control ), and who earn very little money, who really seek to create a couple ( again, bad business choice since a marriage mean a loss of customer )... these will maybe die, all the best for the big business...

I will not worry to much for the agency... Because of the IMBRA, they will be able to double charge US man because of some administrative cost... a good business man will never have problem to find a way to suck more money from their customer... it will not surprise me that several of the owner from MOB business are alien themself, from Ferenginar !!!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 05, 2011, 08:41:16 PM
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention.  Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil.  Is this legal?

It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.

Paul what you're saying is that Andrew's website isn't a slick, creative site but a quick copy and paste job.

It looks like Andrew and the adsense site are using a get-rich-quick by writing articles internet company called "The List Virus", which does not offer its customers many options.

Using the same template and intro text is nothing to get worked up over.

Paul,

If the website is a template, what about the text in Part 1 if the series of the adsence advertorial? Were there any similarities there?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 05, 2011, 09:13:20 PM
If the process becomes too lengthy/difficult (untenable), it becomes unprofitable ...

Now sure that it is true... more lenghty process mean more letter exchange and traduction work...

These big marriages agency are business... mean that they seek money... a US guy who date a FSU girl use a lot of money who go directly in the wallet of the marriage agency... once married, no more money go to the marriage agency...

Of course, there is these few ethical marriage agency, with only a few ladies that they interview personal ( bad business choice, it is so easy to use a web form without any control ), and who earn very little money, who really seek to create a couple ( again, bad business choice since a marriage mean a loss of customer )... these will maybe die, all the best for the big business...

I will not worry to much for the agency... Because of the IMBRA, they will be able to double charge US man because of some administrative cost... a good business man will never have problem to find a way to suck more money from their customer... it will not surprise me that several of the owner from MOB business are alien themself, from Ferenginar !!!

Hi Bruno welcome back. :)

My paragraph was not well written and I wasn't clear in my meaning, sorry about that...What I wanted to convey was;

If the immigration process becomes too lengthy/difficult, whether due to renewed enforcement of IMBRA laws/regs in the US or similar laws/regs in other countries, then the men seeking an overseas relationship might abandon the endeavor effecting the profit margins for the agencies resulting in their going out of business.

Otherwise, for the most part, I agree with your post.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Paul on January 05, 2011, 09:18:43 PM
Paul,

If the website is a template, what about the text in Part 1 if the series of the adsence advertorial? Were there any similarities there?

I don't know, ECR. I'm leaving for Romania tomorrow and don't have time to read through it,.. I'm supposed to be packing and getting other things ready  :scared0005: The idea that an article that was written about adsense has been slightly changed to be about the MOB industry is pretty silly.

BTW, I'm not trying to defend Andrew and, I do not agree with most of what he says either.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 06, 2011, 12:30:17 AM
If the immigration process becomes too lengthy/difficult, whether due to renewed enforcement of IMBRA laws/regs in the US or similar laws/regs in other countries, then the men seeking an overseas relationship might abandon the endeavor effecting the profit margins for the agencies resulting in their going out of business.

Well, for the time being, IMBRA is only limited to US... and i have write it before, US men are not the majority of customer for a real international marriage agency... in a previous post, i have show that same if 20% of US guy give up because of the IMBRA, it will lead to a drop of only 5% income for agency... drop who can be easily compensate by a little price rise for all customer...

In fact, Andrew report can lead agency to loose more customer that the IMBRA itself if it was better diffused that now... in any group of people, you will always find some who believe the doom scenario and who will give up... not really a big loss for the FSU women...

By the way, immigration process is only a detail in all the foreign marriage process... being married to a RW is a daily work for several year and not always a easy task... if some people give up because of a more difficult/lengthy immigration process, the same people will give up when they live together with their foreign wife and enjoy the cultural shock until the wife is perfectly integrated in her new country...

Almost miss it... how is the IMBRA making the immigration process more lengthy/difficult for the man seeking a foreign bride...

Before a (for fee) IMB may provide a foreign national client’s personal contact information to a United States client, the IMB must:
- (1) search sex offender public registries  for information regarding the United States client;
- (2) collect certain criminal and marital background information through documentation or an attestation from the United States client;
- (3) provide to the foreign national client any records retrieved from the sex offender public registry search and the background information collected in her primary language;
- (4) provide to the foreign national client a government-prepared information pamphlet about the legal rights and resources available in the U.S. to immigrant victims of domestic violence and other crimes; and
- (5) obtain the foreign national client’s signed, written consent to the release of her information to the United States client.


Seem that all new "difficulty" are for the marriage agency... and step 1 to 5 may ask only a few days at most... step 1 to 3 can be a one time process during the customer registration if the agency work with women sharing a identical language ( russian by example )... guys who have nothing to hide don't need to fear the IMBRA... and the limit on the K1 visa is not bad too... K1 visa is for marry your already fiancée, it is not a dating visa !!!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: djfourmoney on January 06, 2011, 03:52:33 AM
 In some respects the fear of IMBRA is actually not anything to fear in general but that the Government has information it can use against you if it sees fit. This is why you see some rants following by black SUV's and Choppers coming to their home which is something out of "Clear and Present Danger".

 The problem is this forums favorite place to hunt and it is a hunt for their wives can't use the back door to the US immigration system.

 It would certainly be a bit cheaper and less time consuming...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 06, 2011, 07:36:53 AM
I think what some of the critics of the report are missing is that the US government is slowly but surely taking a stand against the foreign bride industry as a whole. People have cited that reference to older laws that have not been enforced have been made and the information presented as "new". I see that of course, and I see why some of the sources Andrew has used to date have been criticised. But he has further parts to come.

When I first heard that legislative changes are on the way in the US (which was a few months back), these states mentioned were given as an example of laws that can be woken up in a heartbeat when the political will dictates it.

Here is another example that allows us to smell the wind. A report is attached here as a PDF that comes from the Virginia Journal of International Law called: "Trafficked: Domestic Violence, Exploitation in Marriage, and the Foreign Bride Industry". (Credit to Dan @ another forum for finding it).

One can find innumerable gems in it; for example:

Quote
This note argues that the foreign bride industry constitutes human trafficking under international law and calls for both immediate legal reforms and the ultimate criminalisation and prosecution of foreign bride trafficking.

Quote
the brokering of foreign brides via "international marriage brokers (IMB's)" or "international marriage broker traffickers (IMB-T's)" (used interchangeably), to men in the United States.

Quote
Achieving the ultimate goal of prohibiting and criminalising the foreign bride industry as trafficking under US law.

You can read the attached document for yourself by clicking the link at the bottom of this post.

Tell me now that the foreign bride industry isn't under direct attack from various elements in the US.  :scared0005:  It does have an impact for non-Americans too because the industry in its current form relies on the US as the major market. Without US clients the industry in its current form dies. The US is over 80% of the market. Thus: "The Russian Bride Business is Dead" as the report is called might be termed "critical and about to go on life support".

When I started this topic, I linked several agency owners and various other people in the industry I know to it and the report as well. I wanted them to stay in the loop of opinion and be acquainted with what is likely to happen to their businesses in the medium term.

I think Andrews first section was hopeful of flushing out the people who care about the subject (enough to cough up an email address at least), in order that sensible discussion about the way the legitimate side of the industry might evolve by choice before changes are forced upon them might take place. To that end, the discussion and subject is of value not only to agency owners, but their clients and others associated with the industry too.

Some of the comments on this topic have focused too much on Andrews perceived internet persona and not on the topic in hand. I think the mods have done an excellent job so far in keeping the thread on-topic, and that has involved splitting off some unrelated stuff that has caused a few members to complain.

Andrew has been poorly for a couple of days, but I gather he has now revised his initial stance on small parts of his report being used here (under fair use provisions) for the purpose of sensible conversation and debate.

Kevin from Kherson Girls has already been on the topic. I would urge any agency owners reading this (as I know you are), to join in the discussion about the future of the industry and read the report if you haven't done so already.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 06, 2011, 08:16:27 AM
Thanks Stuart for that link.
Sorry, I was supposed to be going back home to Estonia today. That will not now be happening. I will be gracing the Spanish coast with my presence for a few days longer.

A few points to make and apologies for missing stuff, I know I will have done.
1) The point being picked up on by Stuart and by some others is the TREND. Yesterday I was on the phone with an IMB dude. He had read the report and was making the same kind of points about how this is all very distant and not applicable.
My reply to him was something like this:
Activists and lobbyists do this stuff for a career. They have a career life span of maybe 40 years. If they sponsor or promote legislation for some 'free points', a thing that costs the pols no money to implement but looks good on the 'social activism account' then they will do it for the free votes and karma.
20 years later and the pol is in prison, retired or dead, but the legislation is stil on the books.
The lobbyist is by now a judge or DA and is up for re-election, or simply wants to polish his/her halo. Guess what he is going to do?
(S)he will dust off the legisaltion and lobby for it to be implemented.

Don't believe this happens? Remember a guy called Donald Rumsfeld? He, and others, wrote a paper detailing plans for invasion and overthrow of a certain middle eastern country. The back story, strategy and implementation plan was all there. It was written when Rumsfeld and colleagues were young hawks with an eye to the future. Guess what happened to that plan?
Remember what happened after 9/11?
The judicial process is a part of somebody's career, they CARE much more than you do, even if it is only about their own career! They can afford the long term view so never discount something because it has not happened just yet.

On the other hand most of the guys here have a time horizon of as long as it takes to find the first foreign wife, trade her in and get a second. Maybe 10 years in all, and most much, much less. So, you guys do nothing, because you think it is not relevant to you.

The business owners here, most will not have been in business for as long as a decade, a fair few were not service providers or employees even when IMBRA was introduced. IMBRA has been unenforced. Well, guess what, last year (IIRC) the GAO criticised the lack of implementation and poked the thing with a stick.
Now the free ride is coming to an end.

2. No, I do not mind if folks quote small pieces of my work, I DO and WILL object to folks using large chunks of it. Nobody needs to 'quote' multiple paragraphs to make a point, and if they do they should have no reasonable expectation of having that point read or responded to. ;)
My apologies, I thought I had made that point previously.

3. While I want clients and users of IMB services to take note of what is going on, to be aware of the changing environment, in the end it is only those with a longer term view who can really do much about the issues. Very few customers are going to be activists for individual freedoms. In the end, it will be agency owners, paid wing men, tour guides, translators, agency employees, and others with a business stake who will have to make the hard choices.

The thing is though, I hope that service users, clients and the generally interested read this material and pass it on to their contacts who are service providers. In large part it is why I offered folks the opportunity to get a drink or two for the time they spend letting other people know about this report and its follow ups. Don't worry about me, I can manage the cost. ;) Frankly, it is cheaper to pay a little money to you guys to pass on the link than it is to buy advertising or CPA traffic and LOTS quicker than organic traffic!

BTW, thanks for your efforts so far. The report IS starting to get into the hands of people with Russian and Ukrainian names and I recognise some names and email addressses that have popped up.

4. The IMB-T paper is interesting because it makes explicit what is going on. I was chatting online with a bloke about the fingerprinting issue. At first he saw no problem, then I asked him this question:
'In normal life who gives their fingerprints to the police?'
The answer came back almost without hesitation: 'criminals and those suspected of commiting crime'

What is happening is that the concepts are being redrawn.
One bloke told me ages ago 'I give my fingerprints and I am proud to do so!' he was an ex-serviceman and gave them as part of his military ID, but he did not give his dabs to the police. ;)

So, subliminally, even if not enforced, the language and thought is being turned toward making anyone seeking a foreign bride into a criminal - in the mind, if not (yet) in fact.
Do YOU want to be thought of as a criminal just coz you think a Russian accent is sexy?

IMB-T is a thought document, it is not going to become a law all by itself but it is reframing thought by controlling and managing language. If one accepts the language of the document then anyone marrying a foreign bride is a human trafficker and thus a criminal. Easy!

It is exactly the same process as we see in times of war, how the language is controlled so that we have 'appropriate' mental imagery to go with the ideas. Gooks, anyone? Nips? Or in less warlike times what about 'nigger' 'dago' or 'wog'?
With the right control of the words associated with activities then it can be made socially unacceptable to do certain things.
You don't want to be a criminal do you?
So you don't do things that criminals do, things such as giving your fingerprints to the police, giving your police record to contacts, or getting involved in human trafficking.

As I have noted in DoaRB, we have a confluence of ideas, of memes; each on their own maybe not too important, but all together and at the same time? Dynamite. You are ALL going to be criminals because you do what criminals do!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 06, 2011, 09:25:37 AM
Andrew--

Your latest post on this business is certainly far more reasonable, and capable of rational discussion. It is obviously completely different than your "report" that is so over the top as to be a distinct disincentive for many to take it seriously.

I agree that the trends are not auspicious. I also agree that IMBRA is a foolish law in many respects--the intended results could be done far more easily in other ways. If fingerprinting and criminal background checks are actually to be used,they could more logically be done at the time when a visa is applied for, not merely when someone seeks to contact someone else initially. Since foreign-owned agencies don't come under the purview of IMBRA, to give just one glaring example, the present law seems to only discriminate against American-owned ones.

It is often this kind of amendments that could far more readily be accomplished than trying to do an end run around a particular law. Seeking to avoid the whole thing by changing the paradigm as I believe is intended often becomes the source of other, even more egregious amendments that are extended to other kinds of enterprises. That, too, is something that could stand reasonable discussion among the interested parties.

I have been accused by a board moderator of saying "I have written one such report and could do better." The simple fact is that I have written dozens of research reports, some of whom have been part of the decision-making process for corporations in deciding upon tens of millions of dollars in investments. So yes, I do believe I understand the genre.

In your case, I think it was a tactical mistake to avoid specific references, and to mis-characterize the State laws on the subject. Five States among fifty are not exactly "Many" States, after all. If they are beginning to finally be enforced, that is actually a rather new phenomenon--and it isn't too hard to say that as your original meaning and not be so easily misconstrued at the cost of your believability.

I have never been particularly a fan of the "Chicken Little" school of argument, for I have not found it to be very effective for the most part. Doing what essentially appears a cut and paste from the "List Virus" program seems a bit unfortunate. For example, the one called "The Death of Adsense" claimed that Adsense "died" in 2006, about four and a half years ago--during which time Google has made billions of dollars from that program. (Adsense revenue to Google during the first quarter of 2010, for example, has been reported as $2.04 Billion.) Thus, from today's perspective that pronouncement seems to have been quite wrong. By having such a substantially similar approach, I fear that your valid speculations may well suffer the same lack of credibility among many.

Thus, my contentions regarding your "report" are five:

--The histrionic approach is counterproductive.
--Being less than careful with facts robs your argument of credibility that would have strengthened it greatly.
--As a recruiting tool for some new venture it is less effective than it might have been.
--That the entire approach reduces what should be an interesting and informative discussion to side issues.
--That the approach of this forum regarding it has discouraged meaningful participation by many who should probably be concerned about this issue, but who have been turned off by its manner of presentation and the unfortunate methods used to try to advance it here.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 06, 2011, 09:55:52 AM
David, without making reference to the content but for a moment to what has actually happened.
I have opened up a discussion that has not happened before, people who are not members of any forum have visited my site and read the document, some have subsequently visited here and other forums.
People who have not visited this, or any other forum, for years have visited and joined the discussion. I have had emails and PMs from people I have not heard from for years and chatted with people I did not expect to be chatting with, ever.

The opt-in rate from the squeeze page has been HUGE at over 90%, this tells me absolutely that the process I set up works and is of value. Typically the opt-in rate from a qualified page visit/referral is considered good if it gets as high as 60%.

People have taken advantage of my referral offer and, as I recall, over 20% of the optins came from people referred to the page by people who had been themselves first referred by others, this again, is huge!

In just a few days this thread, and others elsewhere have grown from nothing to many pages and the readership, in the thousands, has been way beyond my expectations.

I want to have email addresses in order to ensure that subsequent documents will reach those who asked to receive them. Sadly I do not have adequate ESP powers to enable me to do this without using double opt in emails.
Let us be clear about this, if I wanted to have a mailing list of people for almost any niche such as this one there are better and easier ways to do the job. This is about communication.

Bottom line, I know my business, I know how to make things work and I am attaining my goals! You do not have to like the manner of presentation but as long as we have hundreds of downloads, thousands of readers and significant extra traffic all focused upon the topic then I will not worry too much that some people's aesthetic sensibilities are not fully satisfied. ;)
By that, I mean that I want to have everyone happy, but overall I want to get the maximum benefit from my efforts. If I make everyone happy but nobody reads the documents and we have no discussion then what have we gained?

I have made quite a buzz in this little niche and that's not a bad thing. I expect that as we move the focus toward agencies that this will continue and, while maybe numbers will go down, the value will go up because, as I noted above, it is agencies, service providers, the proprietors and staff who are the people who need to consider what is going on.



Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 06, 2011, 10:05:38 AM
Andrew--

If fingerprinting and criminal background checks are actually to be used,they could more logically be done at the time when a visa is applied for, not merely when someone seeks to contact someone else initially. Since foreign-owned agencies don't come under the purview of IMBRA, to give just one glaring example, the present law seems to only discriminate against American-owned ones.

100% in agreement. And I believe it was done on purpose. Notice at the begining to the VA Law paper the US definition and the Palermo Protocol's definition of human trafficking.

"First, the [US] TVPA’s definition of trafficking requires force, fraud, or coercion to satisfy its “means element.”
"Conversely, the Palermo Protocol’s definition of trafficking includes a broader list of potential means, including the 'abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability.'”

This is crucial as (what I percieve) the intent of the authors is to forcibly bring the US to comply with international standards, therefore, IMBRA if duly implemented.


In your case, I think it was a tactical mistake to avoid specific references, and to mis-characterize the State laws on the subject. Five States among fifty are not exactly "Many" States, after all. If they are beginning to finally be enforced, that is actually a rather new phenomenon--and it isn't too hard to say that as your original meaning and not be so easily misconstrued at the cost of your believability.

Actually, Mr. Wilson is following in the (sensationalistic) footsteps of the authors of this VA report.  For example: "While the international community has largely tolerated relationships with foreign women via IMB-Ts under the auspices of civil liberties or “online dating rights,”134 these relationships have also received substantial scrutiny and regulation because of the likelihood that many of these relationships result in domestic violence.[footnote]135

And footnote 135 says...

135. Even despite data challenges in quantifying the number of IMB-T-facilitated marriages
that result in domestic violence, the INS concluded that there was “‘considerable’ potential for
abuse in such marriages, and ‘numerous opportunities for exploitation,’” including foreign immigrant
status, isolation, economic inequality, men’s unrealistic expectations, and the profiles of
men who use IMB-Ts. TAHIRIH IMBRA FAQs, supra note 131; see also INT’L MATCHMAKING
CONG. REPORT, supra note 132, at 2–6, 15–16, 19; SCHOLES, supra note 132, at 4 (citing MILA
GLODAVA & RICHARD ONIZUKA, MAIL-ORDER BRIDES: WOMEN FOR SALE (1994) and Uma Narayan,
“Male-Order” Brides: Immigrant Women, Domestic Violence, and Immigration Law, 10
IMBHYPATIA 104 (1995)). Moreover, these conclusions are supported by extensive literature on the
subject, the experience of domestic violence service providers, and studies that indicate that immigrant
victims suffer more severe abuse and are three times more likely to suffer abuse than the
general U.S. population. TAHIRIH IMBRA FAQs, supra note 131 (listing numerous sources in
n.2); see also Dorchen A. Leidholdt, From Sex Trafficking to FGM: Emerging Issues Confronting
Advocates for Immigrant Battered Women, in LAWYER’S MANUAL ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE:
REPRESENTING THE VICTIM 369, 373 (Jill Lauri Goodman & Dorchen A. Leidholdt eds., 5th ed.
2006), available at http://tinyurl.com/2dnc38g (“[At] a 2003 conference for domestic violence
service providers organized by the New York State Coalition Against Domestic Violence, half of
the counselors in attendance had assisted [IMB-T] brides who had become victims of domestic
violence.”); Amnesty Int’l, Issue Brief: Regulate International Marriage Broker Industry; Protect
Immigrant Brides Against Domestic Violence, AMNESTY INT’L USA, available at
http://tinyurl.com/24k9azr (last visited Sept. 23, 2010) [hereinafter Amnesty Issue Brief] (noting
the high risk of abuse that “mail order brides” face in the United States, including violence and
murder, and citing “[a] 2003 survey [that] found that over 50 percent of providers of legal assistance
serving battered immigrant women had helped women who met their abusive husbands
through [IMB-Ts]”).


If I read this report correctly, this is the intent of what they want to accomplish.

While some supporters of the foreign-bride industry have argued that
IMB-T websites do not capture the true intent of IMB-T grooms who
may be sincere in looking for a life partner and purportedly want to experience
foreign language and culture,169 the realities of twenty-first
century dating and the experiences of IMB-T brides prove otherwise. If
IMB-T grooms were truly looking for culture and a life partner, they
have many feasible opportunities to do so without purchasing the services
of IMB-Ts and exploiting power differentials between IMB-T
brides and grooms.


And then, the examples:

Continued language and cultural diversity in the
United States suggest that cross-cultural relationships are prevalent and
easily found locally, particularly in large, metropolitan areas.170 (Sorry, yokums no need apply - Muzh) The rise
of U.S.-based online dating websites,171 some of which offer free membership,
or even foreign versions of these sites,172 may help facilitate
such dating. Additionally, increased ease of international travel, growing
U.S. expatriate communities in foreign countries, and globalization
make changes in residence and foreign employment plausible options. (Typical theorist. No clue where her butt is - Muzh)
Considering the inequalities inherent in IMB-T relationships that are
advertised to IMB-T grooms,173 it is highly unlikely that men look for
non-exploitative relationships through IMB-Ts because there are several
other avenues through which men may find relationships that are not
based on their domination, control, and power over their partners.


Ball is in your court.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 06, 2011, 10:24:13 AM
Tell me now that the foreign bride industry isn't under direct attack from various elements in the US.  :scared0005:  It does have an impact for non-Americans too because the industry in its current form relies on the US as the major market. Without US clients the industry in its current form dies. The US is over 80% of the market. Thus: "The Russian Bride Business is Dead" as the report is called might be termed "critical and about to go on life support".

Do you have statistical numbers who confirm your claim that the US is over 80% of the market ?

As today, my own number show that on a sample of 15242 men profile seeking a FSU lady, only 3990 are from US...

I was chatting online with a bloke about the fingerprinting issue. At first he saw no problem, then I asked him this question:
'In normal life who gives their fingerprints to the police?'
The answer came back almost without hesitation: 'criminals and those suspected of commiting crime'

So, i am a criminal or i am suspected of commiting crime ... http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-539107 ... yes, all the new EU international passport have a electronic chip in them with fingerprint on it... very useful for fight identity thief who use false document...

Need my fingerprint to start my computer too... very useful since nobody else can start my computer...

Quote
People who have not visited this, or any other forum, for years have visited and joined the discussion.

In my case, you are lucky... it was the "christmas-new year" pause for my other internet hobby... being bored, i have go to your tube and your video was one of the new video...

Quote
In just a few days this thread, and others elsewhere have grown from nothing to many pages and the readership, in the thousands, has been way beyond my expectations.

well, for the many page of these topic, several are dedicated to your referal system, to your site looking like a other, etc ... if all off-topic post was removed, it will not remain a lot of post...

Quote
You do not have to like the manner of presentation but as long as we have hundreds of downloads, thousands of readers and significant extra traffic all focused upon the topic then I will not worry too much that some people's aesthetic sensibilities are not fully satisfied.

Traffic, aesthetic are details... but i am curious to know how much people agree with what you write... and it will be interesting to have more reaction from various marriage agency since the report is mainly about their business model...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 06, 2011, 10:26:25 AM
Yep.  As I suspected.  Continue to push the agenda, ignore the criticism, and post just enough to keep the hits going.   Lots to see here but don't look behind the curtain!  I found my interest in the site waning before, this just clinches it.

Crystal ball says...

Part II...Brilliantly named "Life After Russian Brides". 

I am sure it will just tease things out...leading to Part III, IV, and Part V...The Cure!

Which will be a brilliant plan down the road to unify and collect all the providers into their own marketing and ad network since they are being pushed out of the Yahoo's and Google's of the world due to Imbra and similar legistlation. 

Good luck.  I'm done with this slimy pyramid marketing site. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 06, 2011, 10:48:38 AM
Do you have statistical numbers who confirm your claim that the US is over 80% of the market ?

It is a number I came up with based on geographic data from our book sales, my wife's work over several years and the member demographic here.

Based on book sales alone: The English speaking market is mostly the US followed by Canada. Runners up are the UK and Australia. The rest can be categorised as "others".

That said, I know the Benelux, Germany, France, Scandinavia, Austria and Switzerland are large markets too. But most of the mega agencies are US based or US facing. 

Do you have a different view Bruno, as a multi lingual Benelux resident ex-agency owner?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: cufflinks on January 06, 2011, 04:43:55 PM
File Under you just can't make this stuff up - Husband #3 logs into wifes email account and sees her cheating with Husband #2 - now Hubby #3 being prosecuted under State's computer hacking laws... so marry a foreign wife and be charged with Sex Trafficking not so far fetched really - unless you are in the Korean Relaxation Spa Mafia and the Feds and States leave you alone to avoid the hassle...

Seriously, How many here have logged into their wife's or girlfriend's email - better get written permission as part of maintaining fixing cleaning viruses etc off her PC from now on in the freedom loving USofA!

Husband Faces Jail Time For Checking Wife’s Email, Is It A Crime?
Wednesday Dec 29, 2010 – By Britni Danielle

http://clutchmagonline.com/newsgossipinfo/husband-faces-jail-time-for-checking-wife%E2%80%99s-email-is-it-a-crime/

File this under “crazy things people do in relationships.” A Michigan man is facing felony jail time for checking his wife’s email. Leon Walker, a computer technician, faces a jury trial in February for allegedly hacking into his then-wife’s Gmail account.

According to Walker, he didn’t hack into his wife’s emails because she had previously given him the password. “She’d asked me to read her e-mails before,” Walker said. “She gave me the password before. She didn’t hide it.”

Walker, his ex-wife’s third husband, claims the emails show she was having an affair with her second husband. After learning this, Leon Walker used the emails to file an emergency motion to gain custody of the couple’s daughter. Mr. Walker also shared the emails with his ex-wife’s first husband with whom Clara Walker has another child.

“He took action with the courts to have himself protected and I took action with the court to have my daughter protected,” Walker said.

When Mrs. Walker found out how her private emails made it to court, she filed a complaint with the police who later charged Leon Walker with hacking.

Although charging Walker with a felony seems a bit over the top, Prosecutor Jessica Cooper stands by her office’s decision to prosecute.  < Editorial Note - Feminazi Prosecutor >

“The guy is a hacker,” Cooper told the Detroit Free Press. “It was password protected, he had wonderful skills, and was highly trained. Then he downloaded them and used them in a very contentious way.”

So far Mrs. Walker has been publically silent on the issue, however her lawyer says that she might be inclined to speak about the case “given the inaccuracies and spin Mr. Walker has put on the story.”

No matter the outcome of the case, maybe this will make snooping lovers think twice about breaking into their partner’s email or voicemail accounts. 

<Note Mr. Walker says that wifey told him her password and he did not hack anything - so forewarned is forearmed!>
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 06, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
It is a number I came up with based on geographic data from our book sales, my wife's work over several years and the member demographic here.

Based on book sales alone: The English speaking market is mostly the US followed by Canada. Runners up are the UK and Australia. The rest can be categorised as "others".

Well, i don't know your wife's book... but if the subject is related to US citizen seeking a russian wife, or related to the Us visa procedure, or... point is that if the main subject is related to US guy, it is logical that you sell more book to US citizen....

Quote
That said, I know the Benelux, Germany, France, Scandinavia, Austria and Switzerland are large markets too. But most of the mega agencies are US based or US facing.

Do you have a different view Bruno, as a multi lingual Benelux resident ex-agency owner? 

let see two example...

- a well know free site ( www.freepersonals.ru )... 15242 men where 3990 are from USA : 26%
- a big agency ( www.alena-marriage-agency.com )... 84434 men where 18497 are from USA : 22%

I am pretty sure that any international site with both women and men profile will have similar ratio... around the 25% of US men...

Now, about mega agencies... as today, it is best to speak about mega network... a quote from my first post in these topic :

The owner of "allsinglerussiangirls" is Grebnev Nikolay from SoftEnergo, Saint-Petersburg... in fact, these guy own 36 different sites related to Russian dating/marriage...

A other example is the Cupid Media group with 32 website who target the whole world ( AfroIntroductions.com, AsianDating.com, AussieCupid.com.au, BBWCupid.com, BlackCupid.com, BrazilCupid.com, CaribbeanCupid.com, ChineseLoveLinks.com, ChristianCupid.com, ColombianCupid.com, DominicanCupid.com, FilipinoCupid.com, GayCupid.com, HongKongCupid.com, IndianCupid.com, IndonesianCupid.com, InterracialCupid.com, IranianSinglesConnection.com, JapanCupid.com, KoreanCupid.com, LatinAmericanCupid.com, MexicanCupid.com, MilitaryCupid.com, Muslima.com, PinkCupid.com, RussianEuro.com, SingaporeLoveLinks.com, SingleParentLove.com, SouthAfricanCupid.com, ThaiLoveLinks.com, UkraineDate.com, VietnamCupid.com ) ... The RussianEuro.com site existing in English, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Norwegian, Polish, Russian and Swedish. Around 18 million customer worldwide !!!

Point is that as today, international dating/marriage is not more only a US or EU business... the muslim in the desert, the African in the jungle, everybody everywhere in the world can have a internet connection... in fact, recently china is growing very fast in the international marriage sector...

USA is 308 million people, EU is 500 million people... remain 5995 million people on the earth... some of them are guy with enough money for seek a wife anywhere...

Boys, it is the USA who have lead everybody to a world market but it seem that US have forget about it... International marriage agency don't mean anymore marriage/dating between US citizen and the rest of the world... look at the name of the numerous site from the Cupid media group.

Here, we have agency with older rich Belgium ladies ( 50 yo and more ) who go "buy" a poor Egyptian husband who is half their age !!! This is international marriage agency business too !!!

Yes, some agency will die... little one, maybe these oriented to only US guy... but the big player, who are multinational business who have understand the globalization will survive without problem

The banner on there forum related to Andrew book show for title "Russian bride business is dead" when in fact it will be more exact to wrote "American groom business is dying"... same if the US close fully his border to Russian bride, these women will find their happiness somewhere else in the world... USA is not anymore their only choice... and the world crisis have made a good work at destroying the myth of the US having tree with golden apple !!!

Anyway, my view, your view, Andrew view, and other view have not value until we have real statistic about everything... the IMBRA was based on pseudo-scientific paper with really low value... all recent paper are based on a very old report ( http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/MobRept_AppendixA.pdf )... look at the "abuse" section... number are only for US women... for foreign bride, you can read : "no national figure", "reason to believe","can be expected",... read the final recommendation and you have a draft of your IMBRA...

Anyway, same if these forum was able to produce statistic based on a huge amount of case, who will believe guys who are "older men with three divorces, alcohol problem and history of domestic abuse/problem with law"... everybody will believe these pseudo scientist who have study less that 100 cases without going out of their office...

The Scholes paper was wrote 10 year before the IMBRA law... nobody have react... since, each new paper is somehow based on it... in the last 15 year, nobody have make some real statistical studies... everything is based on myth...

Andrew paper seem to follow the same method... i need number for believe what he say...  same think for you... your statistic are based on a book sale... my statistic are not perfect but it is based on the amount of men profile in international marriage agency... 99676 men profile where 22487 are from US men... what is the more possible number related to the number of US men using international marriage agency ? The 80% based on a book sale or the 22-25% based on a lot of men profile found on international marriage agency ?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 07, 2011, 04:30:01 AM
Bruno, as you and others have noted, exact numbers are difficult to find. The skill of the analyst lies in being able to see a pattern from as little data as possible - indeed it has been suggested that the reason why the best CEOs are worth the huge salaries they can pull down is because of their skill in seeing patterns from incomplete data and propounding appropriate actions based upon that incomplete data.
I make no great claim as to being a world class CEO but I am not too bad at seeing patterns. ;)

The direction of the social, political and legal environment for IMBs in both the USA and much of the rest of the world is becoming clear. In truth most of the discussion we are seeing in this and other threads is about the degree of clarity with which that can be seen by the various contributors.

What I am trying to do is to help make the direction clear to stakeholders in the IMB business and to try to formulate a means of dealing with the changes. The first part is under way right now. The second part is, still, under development, in part because I am still learning.

As to the relative sizes of different national markets, I do not think this is particularly important. It'd be hard to argue that, partly because of language, the US led section of the industry is the most significant. Also, we need to remember that the 'stock in trade' the women are, on the whole agnostic, as to their destination. The same women, probably not an order of magnitude away from 100,000 in the FSU is featured on websites in English, Spanish, German, French and maybe Chinese and Japanese. The goal of these women is self export.
However, given what I understand of visa numbers for the USA and other relevant data and estimates, I'd suggest that in terms of destination the market is about 30% to the US and 70% to everywhere else, which, almost certainly, makes the US the largest player in terms of destinations and in terms of 'buyers' and 'tyre kickers' I think that there can be little doubt that the English speaking market, led by the US, is overwhelmingly English speaking and US based.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 07, 2011, 05:35:13 AM
OK, folks!

Here are links to the 'Death of a Russian Bride' document direct on www.andrewwilsonnews.com While over 90% of the people going to the page have signed up to receive the report I take on board the fears of those who are worried that I can somehow control their minds via email. ;)

I still suggest that you DO sign up to receive notifications of updates and to download the report as a single document. Don't worry, I am not going to sell, give away or auction your email addresses and any message you get from me will have a link to enable you to stop getting messages in the future. Your minds are safe. ;)

Anyhow, here are the links. Please note that this does not give the right to take and republish the words on these pages, they are copyright. Small quotes with linked attribution for the purpose of reporting and comment is fine by me.

http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-1
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-2
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-3
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-4
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-5
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-6
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-7
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-8
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-9
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-10

You can also subscribe to the site rss feed and thus get all posts on the site as they appear.
http://andrewwilsonnews.com/feed

If you want to share, circulate or promote these links please feel free, my goal is to maximise distribution of this document.

Stuart, if you want to organise these links in some alternative form, please feel free to do so.

Thanks for your interest and support guys!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 07, 2011, 05:51:04 AM
Bruno, as you and others have noted, exact numbers are difficult to find.

In fact, numbers don't exist... and there is not real wish to have them...

Quote
The skill of the analyst lies in being able to see a pattern from as little data as possible

Can say the same from people who wrote horoscope in news paper... there is a need of a minimum of data else it is all fantasy...

Quote
The direction of the social, political and legal environment for IMBs in both the USA and much of the rest of the world is becoming clear.

Not so sure about the rest of the world... for each agency who will be closed in the US, i am pretty sure that a other will open somewhere in the world... in case of FSU, it seem that the trend is about new english writed site where the owner is from FSU itself...

Quote
What I am trying to do is to help make the direction clear to stakeholders in the IMB business and to try to formulate a means of dealing with the changes.


Maybe you wish to help but believe me, big IMB business have very capable analyst team... pretty sure that they have already formulate plan for future change that you have not yet imagined... never take pro business men for stupid men...

Quote
As to the relative sizes of different national markets, I do not think this is particularly important. It'd be hard to argue that, partly because of language, the US led section of the industry is the most significant. Also, we need to remember that the 'stock in trade' the women are, on the whole agnostic, as to their destination. The same women, probably not an order of magnitude away from 100,000 in the FSU is featured on websites in English, Spanish, German, French and maybe Chinese and Japanese. The goal of these women is self export.

Well, IMBRA allow a escape way for business where US customer are not the principal business... so size of non US market can be important... about language, english was/is/will remain the main language used on the internet... a lot of non US site will use for primary language the English language...

The goal of these women is not really self export but more trade up... and some of them have already a idea to where they wish to go... sometime, in add, you can read "not from US", "from Germany", "not Muslim", "from AU", etc... again, some statistical study is needed...

You wrote "probably not an order of magnitude away from 100,000 in the FSU"... so, 100k seem to be the basic number but at other place, i have read that it was 150k... so, we have already a variance of 50% for the initial data !!! What will be the variance of other deduction based on these initial data ?

Quote
However, given what I understand of visa numbers for the USA and other relevant data and estimates, I'd suggest that in terms of destination the market is about 30% to the US and 70% to everywhere else, which, almost certainly, makes the US the largest player in terms of destinations and in terms of 'buyers' and 'tyre kickers' I think that there can be little doubt that the English speaking market, led by the US, is overwhelmingly English speaking and US based.

I think that you under estimate the EU player... EU have more population that US ( 500mil against 300mil ) who mean a lot of potential male customer... FSU ladies can easily find a entry point in EU for Visa tourist who will allow them to visit the potential groom country... EU is neighbours of FSU ( in the case of some FSU country, they are included in EU territory )...

Since you are located in Estonia, do you see Estonian ladies dating more US guy that European guy? in place of "European guy", i mean "European guy not from Estonia" since Estonia is a EU country now...

In fact, i see a pattern there, EU expending slowly to FSU country... take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EaP , very possible that in 10 or 15 year,  several FSU country will become EU territory... hmmm, maybe you are right, maybe the "russian bride business is dead"... with time, it will become the "european bride business" :p

Bride business have always exist... from the Christus time where pro matchmaker arrange marriage between a men from one village to a lady from a other village , to the actual modern business who match huge amount of people at the planetary level...

Pretty sure that if in the future humanoid life is discover on a other planet, two of the first business will be dating agency and prostitution... followed by alcohol, gambling, etc...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ade on January 07, 2011, 06:22:03 AM
The goal of these women is not really self export but more trade up... and some of them have already a idea to where they wish to go... sometime, in add, you can read "not from US", "from Germany", "not Muslim", "from AU", etc... again, some statistical study is needed...

There have been several informal polls across several FSUW forums about where they'd ideally like to find a partner and the US is consistently in the minority and the EU as a whole is in the majority.

As for the English language... when there's no common language it is generally used as the third language of choice between FSUW and natives of non-English speaking countries because more people know it than any other; for instance, in Norway, most of the natives are well versed in English and there are way more RW that know English than Norwegian. I personally know RW with Norwegian husbands and they use English as a couple.

FWIW, it sounds to me me as if Bruno has a much more realistic handle on the MOB market than Andy and his report full of skewed hysteria.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 07, 2011, 07:28:44 AM
I believe one under-appreciated part of all this is simple: for the last few years, many of the marriage agencies have been only marginally profitable at best. Whether the U.S. clients are more or less numerous than those of other regions is not particularly important. The question is--if the numbers of U.S. clients are significantly reduced, can the agencies survive without fundamental change, and if not, how is that change likely to happen?

Unless I am mistaken, this is one of the fundamental issues that Andrew is trying to address. The relative size of US versus non-US customers is something of an unnecessary diversion.

Consider: let's take Bruno's suggested figure of perhaps fifteen or twenty per cent of all customers for a moment. (I will leave aside some of the reasons that number may be deceptive as a raw number, such as the average monetary expenditure by various classes of customers--we have no real method of knowing that.)

If the agencies are marginally profitable now -- and according to many in the industry that seems to be the case for many -- if fifteen to twenty per cent of the clientele should disappear, can they survive to serve the other eighty to eighty-five percent?

Add in the influence of the social media and general dating websites that further cut into the specialist agency business, and the picture becomes more bleak.

I believe these are the factors that mean substantial change for the present industry--and which Andrew is trying to emphasize.

Another question, though, is whether many agencies *deserve* to survive in anything approaching their current form. As we all know, many are already extremely questionable operations at best. Many folks on these boards would not at all bemoan the disappearance of many of these agencies--and, frankly, I am probably in that camp at least regarding those who engage in wholesale misrepresentation and scamming. I would shed no tears at all if every pay-per-letter or high-priced video (s)cam operation were to be gone tomorrow if not sooner.

Would anyone here seriously be upset if the agencies which hire "web cam girls" who are only interested in having men pay big money to "chat" with them were to be gone from the scene?

I believe at least some of the next wave of operating types will appear sooner rather than later.

However, any such development should be regarded with a considerable grain of salt.

David 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 07, 2011, 07:31:58 AM
FWIW, it sounds to me me as if Bruno has a much more realistic handle on the MOB market than Andy and his report full of skewed hysteria.

Let say that i have a more international view...

Andrew rapport is not so bad in itself... but the real target from his rapport is mainly marriage agency who deal only/mainly with US customer... if these don't adapt, they will have painful days in a near future...

In itself, i have no real problem with the Andrew rapport... i am able to read between the line, able see the targeted audience, and discard the doom scenario... but several people who will read it can make wrong conclusion based on a first level ready...

By the way, it is very easy to have a general view on foreign dating/marriage when you live in a very small country where the total population is similar to these of the Moskow city... and 22% of our population is from foreign country...

Quote
for instance, in Norway, most of the natives are well versed in English and there are way more RW that know English than Norwegian. I personally know RW with Norwegian husbands and they use English as a couple.

I am from Belgium ( French speaking ) and i was married to a RW... at first, communication language was english... once here, since we was living in the Dutch speaking regio of the country, the language used was Dutch... only a few year later, when her daughter have begin learn French at school, i have finally start speak some French...

Andrew have trip/reside in a lot of EU/FSU country, so i am pretty sure that he know that US is not anymore the main target for international marriage... it is his personal choice to limit his report to US and russian bride... but making so, he miss the big picture... i know Andrew from a very long time and he is far to be stupid... i am pretty sure that he have some hidden agenda who will be revealed at a later date... the rapport is only the first one, who know what he will write in the following parts...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 07, 2011, 07:46:12 AM
Would anyone here seriously be upset if the agencies which hire "web cam girls" who are only interested in having men pay big money to "chat" with them were to be gone from the scene?

They won’t be going anywhere. Names will change, income streams will be derived through different structures, the FSU side scamming will be largely the same and dumb WM will continue to spend $$$ sitting behind their keyboards buying into a dream.

I believe at least some of the next wave of operating types will appear sooner rather than later.

They are already here David. This is what where this subject is leading us to.

... i am pretty sure that he have some hidden agenda who will be revealed at a later date... the rapport is only the first one, who know what he will write in the following parts...

Many of us already know exactly what the agenda is and who is involved. We cant talk about it though, that would be ‘silly’.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 07, 2011, 08:21:32 AM
Unless I am mistaken, this is one of the fundamental issues that Andrew is trying to address. The relative size of US versus non-US customers is something of an unnecessary diversion.

Not really... when you analyze a business plan, you need to use all your customer base for elaborate strategy... Since IMBRA apply only to US customer, more small is the representation of US customer, more small will be the general impact.

Quote
Consider: let's take Bruno's suggested figure of perhaps fifteen or twenty per cent of all customers for a moment.... if fifteen to twenty per cent of the clientele should disappear, can they survive to serve the other eighty to eighty-five percent?

Let review your number... 20% of all customer are from US... 20% of the US client should disappear due to Imbra... 20% of 20% is 4%... meaning that agency will need to survive with 96% of customer...

The error in your math is that you consider a drop of 20% of all customer, US and the rest of the world included... but IMBRA apply only to US customer... for have a result similar to your 80%, you need a agency who have 100% of US customer...

Again, it show why the relative size of US versus non-US customers is very important to the financial impact of the IMBRA for marriage agency.

Quote
If the agencies are marginally profitable now -- and according to many in the industry that seems to be the case for many --

Source/evidence please !!!

Today, big agency give 30-35% of the money spend by a referal system customer... if agency are able to give 30-35% away, it mean that their profit margin are somehow in the 50%... and in case of a direct customer, they will enjoy these full profit margin...

Let see a example... right side on these forum, there is ads for Elenasmodels ... their affiliate program have a 50% commissions ... seem that % of commissions have greatly increase in the last few years... if agency was marginally profitable now, why they increase commissions !!!

Believe me, there is huge amount of money involved in the dating/marriage industrie, specially in the big network... it is the little agency with a few customer who have difficult... these will maybe die... pity since they are usually the good agency with quality service, who really know their customer ( women - men )....

In some way, it is like the little local store at the corner of your street who disappear because of the big supermarket...

Quote
Another question, though, is whether many agencies *deserve* to survive in anything approaching their current form. As we all know, many are already extremely questionable operations at best. Many folks on these boards would not at all bemoan the disappearance of many of these agencies--and, frankly, I am probably in that camp at least regarding those who engage in wholesale misrepresentation and scamming. I would shed no tears at all if every pay-per-letter or high-priced video (s)cam operation were to be gone tomorrow if not sooner.

Would anyone here seriously be upset if the agencies which hire "web cam girls" who are only interested in having men pay big money to "chat" with them were to be gone from the scene?

Well, i have already reply about it in these post... it is very probable that the big bad agency will survive due to their large bank account... it is mainly the good little agency who work in a ethical way with very little income margin who will die...

Many of us already know exactly what the agenda is and who is involved. We cant talk about it though, that would be ‘silly’.

Why the "can't talk" ? Is it not "silly" to show the russian bride business being dead ? Since i have no idea of the hidden agenda and who is involved, i will wait until the next rapport for continue post comment in these topic... It is "silly" to comment about a book where you have only the first chapter...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 07, 2011, 08:45:41 AM
Why the "can't talk" ? Is it not "silly" to show the russian bride business being dead ? Since i have no idea of the hidden agenda and who is involved, i will wait until the next rapport for continue post comment in these topic... It is "silly" to comment about a book where you have only the first chapter...

The Russian Bride business isn’t dead, it’s probably a little quieter than it has been in recent years due to the financial downturn we have witnessed. It will be back again and I suspect in the next few years it may even grow.

However, if new IMBRA laws are introduced then the companies who focus on webcam chit chatting might have a few problems which is why that particularly genre is on the move. THAT type of business however has largely nothing to do with international love and marriage … they never have done, they never will do, they just recognised a market that was on the peripherals, moved in and made a stack of cash off the back of it.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 07, 2011, 08:52:26 AM
As I was watching TV last night, there were commercials for eHarmony, Match.com, and Plenty of Fish in ONE show. I guess the financial downturn applies only to "foreign" sites. Which brings me to this question.

Why is it that there's never been a TV commercial for AFA, AWeb, etc.?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: NAB on January 07, 2011, 09:49:56 AM
As I was watching TV last night, there were commercials for eHarmony, Match.com, and Plenty of Fish in ONE show. I guess the financial downturn applies only to "foreign" sites. Which brings me to this question.

Why is it that there's never been a TV commercial for AFA, AWeb, etc.?

AFA was affiliated in a really terrible movie with David Arquette.  (2 Brothers and a Bride) but you pose an interesting question.

Aweb, one of the biggest MOB scams out there, would probably receive so much bad publicity that it would ruin their business.  It's better for them to keep on the downlow and get rich preying on the new to RW guys.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 07, 2011, 10:34:02 AM
As I was watching TV last night, there were commercials for eHarmony, Match.com, and Plenty of Fish in ONE show. I guess the financial downturn applies only to "foreign" sites. Which brings me to this question.

I don’t think that USA based ‘FSU dating’ sites are feeling the pinch and in fact we were told recently by one of them how business was on the up ... and in a recession its understandable how their type of MO might be attracting more clients. The change is happening because of fear of legislation not loss of money.

Why is it that there's never been a TV commercial for AFA, AWeb, etc.?

What NAB said. My guess is that there are a number of reasons for this:

1)   Whilst a television advertisement would undoubtedly raise their public profiles it would also follow that by default they would also have to endure more public scrutiny which is not something they would welcome.

2)   Part of the subliminal message given out to guys would be that they are in an exclusive club who have discovered an alternative to fat feminists. Going public would destroy that exclusivity.

3)   If an advertising executive carried out a simple google search then he/she would quickly find enough data to suggest there would be an ethical issue present.

Regardless of the above, I am under no doubt that despite what Andrew has written in his report about the improving economics in the FSU, there will be for a long time to come plenty of ladies who are looking for a good, honest, reliable husband the likes of which are in short supply on their own soil. Similarly, guys who are serious will find them with relative ease despite what some would want us to believe.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: BC on January 07, 2011, 10:45:56 AM
IIRC keeping up or even increasing marketing efforts in economically difficult times can be quite productive.

I saw a lot of e-dating commercials on TV in Germany this week.

The economic downturn simply put a hefty bunch of guys on the couch with a laptop and no date.

Go figure...

It's not rocket science..  In the end Andrew is probably not that far off his aim..
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 07, 2011, 11:02:15 AM
Actually, demand for online dating sites seems to be growing. There are signs that during recession or economic hard times people tend to do stuff at home. Online social networking of all kinds is on the up and up.

I remember a few years ago that Satellite TV (in the UK) became very popular at the lower end of the socio-economic scale because, costly though it might have seemed to some, it was actually a very cheap form of entertainment for those who must stay at home. Nowadays, I think that the internet is reaching to the same demographic and service providers are advertising to get a slice of that pie.

Advertisers do not advertise for long if they do not make a profit off the ads.

BTW, I am pretty sure that AFA and some others DO or have advertised on US TV. I have seen infomercials for several IMB businesses over the years both online and on trips to the US. The small size of the market would I am sure militate against prime time 30 second commercials though.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 07, 2011, 05:23:57 PM
Now Andrew has made his report available to those who don't want to give an email address, has that addressed the concerns of those folks here who thought it was an email phishing exercise or pyramid scheme of some kind?

Another subject that is interlaced with this one is this: If we are agreed that the MOB industry in its current form is likely to be more regulated in the future, you will agree that the industry is going to have to reform in some way.

Many guys dislike the existing business models that exist; what form do you think the industry should take in the future? What would you like to see? How do you see the future?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 07, 2011, 06:22:06 PM
Just reading one of my favorite online business magazines and what did I come across but this title "The Mail-Order-Bride Trade Is Flourishing" in Bloomberg Businessweek.  I guess that ends any arguments over the death of the Russian Bride business.  Bloomberg's resources are far greater than anything Andrew could have at his fingertips.  There's even a "how to" guide for the truly hapless men.  Admittedly the "how to" guide is more tongue in cheek than useful but it does tell several "don'ts" that everyone should know. 

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_03/b4211069050983.htm the article

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_03/b4211070982481.htm how to guide meeting mail order brides
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 07, 2011, 06:42:45 PM
Now Andrew has made his report available to those who don't want to give an email address, has that addressed the concerns of those folks here who thought it was an email phishing exercise or pyramid scheme of some kind?

Clearly from the offset he didn’t intend to so and I suspect he eventually published the report because of various pressures and requirements presented to him. If a child of mine is constantly stealing from a supermarket and I bring pressure on him to stop then he is no longer a thief, but that doesn’t mean what he was doing in the past before my intervention was correct and with good intention.

Another subject that is interlaced with this one is this: If we are agreed that the MOB industry in its current form is likely to be more regulated in the future, you will agree that the industry is going to have to reform in some way.

The smoke in the mirrors here is the term ‘MOB’ and what it actually constitutes. Let's look at the 4 most common examples:

‘MOB’ type A – ‘Pay as you play’
These will be typically USA based and full of hot ladies apparently searching for much older guys. They will typically attract the type of guy who will never get on a plane but buys into the dreams that young smoking hot chix have an interest in him. The fact that he pays for the time he uses opens the entire model to what can only be described as fraud.

‘MOB’ type B – ‘Pay once then play’
These will be where you pay a set monthly amount but contact and exchange of information is unlimited. They aren’t perfect of course but the incentives to commit direct fraud have been removed.

‘MOB’ type C – ‘Free but pay for additional privileges’
The leading example here would be Mamba. It’s free to use but you can opt to pay for addition privileges that can make search and communication a little more easier. There is no direct fraud.

‘MOB’ type D – ‘Marriage Agencies’
These are almost entirely FSU owned and based and can range from the good to the bad to the ugly. WM need sites like this one to sort the wheat from the chaff.

There are of course other 'types'.

It would appear that the writing is on the wall for type A. As for the other types then my view is nothing much will change from what is has been for the past 12 months.

Many guys dislike the existing business models that exist; what form do you think the industry should take in the future? What would you like to see? How do you see the future?

Quite the contrary as there is ample evidence to suggest that most guys with some FSU education don’t really have too much of a problem with types B, C & D and the real issues and concerns are with type A. The latter it would appear are having to have a make over but from what I have read so far nothing will really change as the incentives to commit extensive direct fraud still remain.

There, that took me 10 minutes and in my opinion it’s a far clearer and subjective synopsis that the one that took many months to compile.  tiphat
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 07, 2011, 08:45:53 PM
‘MOB’ type C – ‘Free but pay for additional privileges’
The leading example here would be Mamba. It’s free to use but you can opt to pay for addition privileges that can make search and communication a little more easier. There is no direct fraud.

Well, i was in the past owner of a type C MOB... my own service was free, little agency with around 800 FSU woman... of course, full free service don't exist... my income was made by sending my "customer" to other service ( translating, flower+gift, airplane ticket, hotel ) where i earn some commission...

I was making around 5000$ month, remain around 2000$ after cost and tax ( tax are huge in EU )... not so bad for only 1-2 hours work each evening...

About fraud... these is always the risk of scam since i don't meet the ladies in my "catalogue"... yet, there is some basic method who allow a first clean up on both side : ( i was requesting a scan from identity paper both for FSU ladies and western men )... but a "no fraud" cannot be certified, myself having found 2 cases of false identity paper...

By the way, some ladies/men who was wishing to have their advert certified have agree to have the scan of their identity document posted along their photo's ( after some censure for protect from identity thief )... seem that at the time, i was more bad that the actual US IMBRA...

Quote
"The Mail-Order-Bride Trade Is Flourishing" in Bloomberg Businessweek.  I guess that ends any arguments over the death of the Russian Bride business.

Good finding... and a very recent article, not based on numbers from 1995 or before...

 :offtopic: PS: indirectly related to FSU meeting... for EU guys who go to the FSU after the 17 jan 2011 for meet their lady... no more need of credit card ( Visa, American Express, etc ... ) for the country in green in the pic below, usual EU bankcard/debit card with chips will work in ATM and bank... max amount are 620 euro for ATM by 4 days period and 5000 euro by week for bank... again a little detail who will ease the process for EU men...
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: msmoby on January 07, 2011, 09:11:04 PM
Actually, demand for online dating sites seems to be growing. There are signs that during recession or economic hard times people tend to do stuff at home. Online social networking of all kinds is on the up and up.

I remember a few years ago that Satellite TV (in the UK) became very popular at the lower end of the socio-economic scale because, costly though it might have seemed to some, it was actually a very cheap form of entertainment for those who must stay at home. Nowadays, I think that the internet is reaching to the same demographic and service providers are advertising to get a slice of that pie.

Well sort of.. Most people pay for the premium channels to get FOOTBALL ;)

I'm pleased to see that your 'report' is now available without the need for an email address.


Any mod have an idea where my post of 7th of Jan 2011 went? - It was removed and restored, but it has been removed AGAIN


Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 08, 2011, 02:55:55 AM
Any mod have an idea where my post of 7th of Jan 2011 went? - It was removed and restored, but it has been removed AGAIN

People should always search their own posts before complaining. It is where you put it. :prophead:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: msmoby on January 08, 2011, 03:19:50 AM
'People' took a screen grab just in case 'someone' suggested that they were 'crazy'  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 08, 2011, 04:48:34 AM
:offtopic: PS: indirectly related to FSU meeting... for EU guys who go to the FSU after the 17 jan 2011 for meet their lady... no more need of credit card ( Visa, American Express, etc ... ) for the country in green in the pic below, usual EU bankcard/debit card with chips will work in ATM and bank... max amount are 620 euro for ATM by 4 days period and 5000 euro by week for bank... again a little detail who will ease the process for EU men...

You've lost me there. I have been using my debit card in the FSU for nearly 3 years and I can draw out more than 300 euro every day.  ???
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 08, 2011, 05:07:38 AM
Ah, yes David, do some agencies 'deserve' to survive?

A bloody good question!

I discuss some of these issues in the report. (If one had wanted one could have churned out huge volumes, but who'd read it?) http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-4

The industry, overall has lost a huge amount of trust from the paying punters and any business that is going to survive is going to need to have trust between the major stakeholders.
How does trust come about?
In general through transparency.

In my opinion, dishonesty does not, in the long term engender trust nor transparency and thus businesses that are not honest will fail.

But there is another issue, related to this.
When times get hard, as they are undoubtedly doing for many of the businesses in both the US and the FSU, there is a tendency for businesses, both small and large, to play 'beggar my neighbour'. A game where businesses and their personnel will seek to gain a comparative advantage by impugning other participants and competitors. We have been seeing this on forums such as this one, another forum and predecessors for some years.
I have learned that seeing this type of behavior is an indicator that a business, or sector, is in trouble.

In truth, what is really required is constructive behavior; activity that enables businesses to react in unison against threats.
Do businesses that are unwilling to work in concert against industry wide threats deserve to survive?
I think not.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 08, 2011, 07:25:06 AM
Ah, yes David, do some agencies 'deserve' to survive?

A bloody good question!

I discuss some of these issues in the report. (If one had wanted one could have churned out huge volumes, but who'd read it?) http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-4

Did you? I’ve read it a couple of times I cannot see where you have discussed which agencies deserve to survive.

The industry, overall has lost a huge amount of trust from the paying punters and any business that is going to survive is going to need to have trust between the major stakeholders.

Has it? I see lots of negative and mistrust commentary regarding a small element of peripheral agencies who focus on ‘pay and play’ and have tremendously poor marriage success rates, but for the vast majority of the remainder of the industry I can point to link after link of positive testimonials from guys who have had good experience. Can you point us to the source of your research?


In my opinion, dishonesty does not, in the long term engender trust nor transparency and thus businesses that are not honest will fail.

With the greatest respect Andrew that isn’t an opinion, that’s a fact that an averagely intelligent 10 year old could have made.

But there is another issue, related to this.
When times get hard, as they are undoubtedly doing for many of the businesses in both the US and the FSU, there is a tendency for businesses, both small and large, to play 'beggar my neighbour'. A game where businesses and their personnel will seek to gain a comparative advantage by impugning other participants and competitors. We have been seeing this on forums such as this one, another forum and predecessors for some years.
I have learned that seeing this type of behavior is an indicator that a business, or sector, is in trouble.

Again do you have links to support this? With the exception of 2 individuals with big personality clashes who have a miniscule market share doing ‘battle’ then I have not seen this. Where can I view some major (in terms of turnover) MOB business impugning their competitors?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 08, 2011, 07:53:35 AM
Vinny, if you don't agree then you refute with evidence. That is now YOUR job. ;)
Have fun.

It is hard to discuss with you when you have not yet figured out the difference between fact and opinion. Just because you agree with an opinion stated by a person, in this case me, does not make it a fact. ;)

In order to start you off here is a link that discusses merchantilism (or as the article suggests a modern day counterpart in corporatism) which is a more technical term for 'beggar my neighbour'.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fca56f34-b154-11df-b899-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ASJvXMw2
Whilst I do know of some examples of large scale merchantilism in the IMB niche I don't think I can share them, smaller scale examples abound and given that most players in this business are relatively small, they do seem appropriate, so, yes, look to forums both old and new for examples within the Russian bride niche and remember that not all players of this game are easily identifiable as service provider principals. ;)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Bruno on January 08, 2011, 08:12:21 AM
You've lost me there. I have been using my debit card ....

Since it is off-topic, i have send you more info via PM
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 08, 2011, 08:20:26 AM
'People' took a screen grab just in case 'someone' suggested that they were 'crazy'  :chuckle:

Then you should now produce that screen grab with the corresponding time/date stamp to match your post on this topic or I might suggest that you're not being truthful and again causing trouble on this topic by referring to a message you posted on a completely different thread in a completetly different room.

The screen shot please.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 08, 2011, 09:00:48 AM
Vinny, if you don't agree then you refute with evidence. That is now YOUR job. ;)
Have fun.

I’m sorry, my understanding was that you wanted to enter into debate regarding your report. Clearly I misunderstood. What is it that you precisely want me to do, provide evidence that Russian Brides are NOT dead, the business of matching up men and women from the Former Soviet Republics is NOT dead and all involved are NOT criminals? Isnt it YOUR job to support YOUR own claims or is the reality that your report is not actually open for discussion?

It is hard to discuss with you when you have not yet figured out the difference between fact and opinion. Just because you agree with an opinion stated by a person, in this case me, does not make it a fact. ;)

I know the difference thanks, it’s the content and usage I challenged. My opinion is that it will get dark tonight, I doubt if few will separate that opinion from fact.

In order to start you off here is a link that discusses merchantilism (or as the article suggests a modern day counterpart in corporatism) which is a more technical term for 'beggar my neighbour'.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fca56f34-b154-11df-b899-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ASJvXMw2
Whilst I do know of some examples of large scale merchantilism in the IMB niche I don't think I can share them, smaller scale examples abound and given that most players in this business are relatively small, they do seem appropriate, so, yes, look to forums both old and new for examples within the Russian bride niche and remember that not all players of this game are easily identifiable as service provider principals. ;)

Thank you for the link Andrew but sadly you have wasted your time as it was unnecessary as I already knew what the meaning was and my question never related to that. I have noted that you cannot support your claim which frankly was not a surprise.

On a more general subject concerning your report then I would like to ask 2 questions:

1)   What is the reason for producing it?

2)   I will assume that as a commercial member then you don’t usually work for nothing so did you fund this project that took you many months to compile yourself or was it sponsored by a 3rd party?

Many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 09, 2011, 12:11:11 PM
Seriously Vinny, if you disagree with the thrust of my argument, that the Russian bride business is not in difficulty, that disruptive change is not coming then tell me, how is that not so?
If you are taking an opposing view, and that is fine with me - I did not expect universal agreement and I am sure that I will prove to be incorrect in some of the suggestions I have made; then what arguments can you muster to suggest that the situation is normal, no changes will occur and life will go on as it has done hitherto.
This is, in part, as I have already noted, a learning process for me. Help me to learn.

Vinny, you showed that you either did not understand the difference between a fact and an opinion or you chose to not do so. If you CHOSE to not do so, dissembled, sought to deceive, then it becomes hard to discuss with you because I can not rely upon what you write. If you simply chose to backfill and claim knowledge after the fact you did not have previously, then, again, it is difficult because I can not know at what level to deal with you.
So, try honesty, do not try to be clever, just be you. Ask direct questions and do not dissemble.

The reasons for writing the report are as I have already stated. If you are unsure of what has already been said on the topic then I refer you to www.andrewwilsonnews.com where you can see the introductory video and read or download the document.

I hope this helps. Let us not keep going over old ground because you either have not read, or choose to forget that which you have read. Thanks!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 09, 2011, 01:01:08 PM
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 09, 2011, 01:26:05 PM
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update

Doesn't work.  Get 'Error establishing a database connection' error message.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 09, 2011, 01:27:43 PM
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update

Doesn't work.  Get 'Error establishing a database connection' error message.

Me too.  :duh:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Chris on January 09, 2011, 02:43:38 PM
Its working OK now
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 09, 2011, 03:13:10 PM
It's working and all Andrew's says is that there has been some good and bad comments about his "research project" and the next update will be out in mid-January.  Since it's currently Jan. 9th that means the next update should be any day.  Not really much of an update.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 09, 2011, 03:22:29 PM
Andrew:

Seriously? Are you suggesting I am being silly? Now, now, I didn’t expect that!  :laugh:

I thought the thrust of your argument was that the Russian Bride business is dead but now you seem to be suggesting that its only in difficulties … which is it to be? I have already commented in this thread where I believe possible legislative changes will impact part of the industry and I also covered where I believe it will have zero affect. I am somewhat surprised that you never commented on my points, particularly as you are so keen to debate this subject. It seems as if you have a preset agenda but if this is not so then please discuss with me the points that I have raised.

My comments have been based upon recent experience in the FSU. Over the New Year I met a number of ladies through Mamba and a significant few mentioned that they are being contacted by many more WM recently than they used to be. As you use Mamba yourself then you will know over recent times there have been significant updates to that site and as where previously it was very difficult to navigate unless you were a Russian speaker, it is now available in most major languages. Please let me know your thoughts as to how this site (and other inward facing FSU dating sites) might benefit from the changes you mention?

SP's like Ed and Jack seem to be doing very well at the moment and I know the latter had to change his venue in Kiev this year due to the record numbers of WM and FSUW attending. Also, there are readily available commentaries around to suggest others are seeing an upturn in business too. If you have been reading this thread then you would have seen a link to one of them. I have no doubt in the future that many SP’s will need to adapt and reposition their business models to account for legislative requirements but that’s no different than it is for most business across many sectors. I have run a business in the UK for nearly 30 years that is in the most heavily regulated sector in Britain so possibly unlike you I know what I’m taking about. Some will rise to the challenges ahead and some will disappear.. that’s normal commercial evolution. What is your experience and opinion of this?

Once again your comments suggest that you haven't been reading what I have written. If you had then you would be aware that I haven’t suggested anywhere that no changes will take place within the MOB industry. You have written misleading comments no doubt to facilitate your own desideratum on this matter. Is this typical of your report or a one off on this thread?

I am happy to help you and to assist your learning curve. Maybe a good start would be to actually read what others are writing, reply courtesy to those who don’t agree with you and as you have repeatedly encouraged, debate then actually proceed to get involved yourself. Do you plan to do this?

You have shown that you either cannot understand simple sentences or your desire to initiate personal attacks by ensconced belittling comments is needier to you than involve yourself in the debate that you think is so important for us to have. No problem for me, I am used to it from you.

So are you going to actually debate your report or is thread just about getting links for SEO? Providing links to your site stating the answer is there when it isn’t is hardly the type of debate I envisaged you wanted.  Yes, your comments were helpful thank you. Your latest missive confirms everything that I already was sure about. When can we expect you to have digested all the feedback you have received and provide us with the answer that will save all us lonely WM in mourning?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 09, 2011, 03:53:28 PM
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update

I watched your vid Andrew. Is my sound system playing up or was someone urinating in the pool whilst you were speaking? ???
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 09, 2011, 04:26:15 PM
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update

I watched your vid Andrew. Is my sound system playing up or was someone urinating in the pool whilst you were speaking? ???

I think its a fountain to create ambience beside that Estonian palm tree.  :nod:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 09, 2011, 04:39:16 PM
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update

I watched your vid Andrew. Is my sound system playing up or was someone urinating in the pool whilst you were speaking? ???

I think its a fountain to create ambience beside that Estonian palm tree.  :nod:

Looked like Espanol to me, I recognised the compulsory pool tiles and decorative breeze blocks. Might even be Mount Montgo in the background. A wild guess but I'm usually right.  tiphat
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 09, 2011, 04:47:17 PM
Andrew your hyperlink "The Russian Bride Business" on "http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-2" opens a new webpage and displays the same page it just came from. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: skiingandrunning on January 09, 2011, 05:24:35 PM
Looked like Espanol to me, I recognised the compulsory pool tiles and decorative breeze blocks. Might even be Mount Montgo in the background. A wild guess but I'm usually right.  tiphat

I remember him writing once that his mother lives in Spain, or something similar.  Probably just dropped in to have a bite to eat and laundry done.   :smokin: :laugh:

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 10, 2011, 12:23:19 AM
Andrew, Brass and 1 or 2 other forum members think that I am being too hard on you by equating your report with the Viagra or fake Rolex spam most people get in their email boxes.  I'm now going to tell you and others why I'm not being hard enough on you and your report.
One forum member brought up the point that your report is double spaced and uses a large type font.  I see nothing wrong with this, in fact some organizations insist on this type of spacing and font size.  It simply makes it easier to read the report either on screen or when printed out.
First thing to consider is what is how is a research report organized? This link (http://portal.acs.org/portal/fileFetch/C/CTP_005606/pdf/CTP_005606.pdf) gives the sections that are customary in a research report.  The sections are:
•   Title
•   Abstract
•   Introduction
•   Experimental Details or Theoretical Analysis
•   Results
•   Discussion
•   Conclusions and Summary
•   References

It is also customary to provide a title or heading for each section and to start it on a new page, neither of which you did.  Does your report at least have the required sections?  Since there are no headings or title it is difficult to say.  There is a definite title page, no abstract, something that might be an introduction, no experimental details or theoretical analysis, no results, no discussion, something resembling a conclusion and references but not nearly enough.   

Now for the report itself.  My understanding is that I'm now allow to quote from your report so I will make extensive use of this wherever possible. 

Second sentence of the report "The business of matching up men and women from the Former Soviet Republics is dead and all involved are criminals" you're stating a fact yet you give no examples, not one.  With all the people involved in the Russian Bride business it should be easy to give at least 3 or 4 examples.  What about Manny and his wife, they are in the Russian Bride business, are they criminals?  Remember this is a research report, it deals in scientific facts and you cannot take artistic license with the facts.

Page 3, second to last line, you mention "there was no shortage of girls and women" willing to go to the US, according to whom?  Again no reference to a source.

Page 4, second paragraph you say in 2000 there were many "little basement photo studios with signs outside inviting girls to come inside for a free photo session and sign up to marry a rich foreign man".  In the next paragraph you state that today these photo studios have been replaced by "up market shops and bars".  You give no source, just a single personal observation that the absence of the small photo studios on one street in St. Petersburg is somehow an indicator of the industry as a whole. 

Page 6, second paragraph, you speak of  "the declining supply of women" wanting to leave the FSU for life abroad.  Again no reference, just your word.  Even worse a recently published article in Businessweek (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_03/b4211069050983.htm) has as its title "The Mail-Order-Bride Trade is Flourishing".  Why would anyone believe your article when an article in an online magazine that regularly interviews CEOs fortune 500 companies states exactly the opposite?

Page 8, second paragraph you state that research suggests that the abuse of foreign women who entered the US via an international marriage agency is "less than 1%", again absolutely no sources to support this statement.

Page 9, second paragraph from the bottom of the page, last word in the paragraph, "returning.45" , the footnote reference of '45' is in fact referencing two difference sources and as such the numbers should be separated by a comma like so "returning.4,5". 

Page 10, last paragraph, you state "the first FSU-oriented online marriage agencies hit the scene in around 1995".  As usual no references or examples of which agencies.

Page 12, first sentence, you state "It was, and still is widely rumored that many of the women at these events were prostitutes".  Again rumoured by whom? You?  The men who attended the events?  Where are your sources?

Page 12, second paragraph, the sentence starts "1999-2004".  Sentences are never started in number form, always write out numbers when starting a sentence. http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Numbers/Numbers23.html

Same paragraph "1999-2004 was probably the heyday of the Russian Bride business".  Says who?  No sources as usual.

Page 14 you state that one cannot place an ad in Yahoo for "Russian Bride", yet if I search on Yahoo for "Russian Bride" I get an endless number of Sponsor Results for "Russian Bride" is Yahoo now giving away free sponsor results?

Bottom of page 14, first bullet, "finger printed" is spelled as two words, it's one word.  Worse still bottom of page 15 and top of page 16 you spell "fingerprints" correctly as one word.

Page 20, you list the legislation affecting international marriage bureaux and their clients yet throughout your entire report you do not list one example, not one, where any of the legislation on page 20 or IMBRA affected one American male.

Andrew, I believe I've explained myself fully enough for, if not you, at least for Brass and others to understand why I think your research report is no better than fake Viagra spam.   

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 10, 2011, 09:27:57 AM
Vinny, if you don't agree then you refute with evidence. That is now YOUR job. ;)
Have fun.

I’m sorry, my understanding was that you wanted to enter into debate regarding your report. Clearly I misunderstood. What is it that you precisely want me to do, provide evidence that Russian Brides are NOT dead, the business of matching up men and women from the Former Soviet Republics is NOT dead and all involved are NOT criminals? Isnt it YOUR job to support YOUR own claims or is the reality that your report is not actually open for discussion?

Vinn, I asked him the same question and I got the same BS response: Please do my research for me.

For the love of science, I have never been in a situation where I'm discussing my research project and for every question raised on my project I respond to the questioner to researc it for me.

The more I read about this the more it sounds like a con job.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 10, 2011, 09:36:11 AM
Andrew, Brass and 1 or 2 other forum members think that I am being too hard on you by equating your report with the Viagra or fake Rolex spam most people get in their email boxes.  I'm now going to tell you and others why I'm not being hard enough on you and your report.
One forum member brought up the point that your report is double spaced and uses a large type font.  I see nothing wrong with this, in fact some organizations insist on this type of spacing and font size.  It simply makes it easier to read the report either on screen or when printed out.
First thing to consider is what is how is a research report organized? This link (http://portal.acs.org/portal/fileFetch/C/CTP_005606/pdf/CTP_005606.pdf) gives the sections that are customary in a research report.  The sections are:
•   Title
•   Abstract
•   Introduction
•   Experimental Details or Theoretical Analysis
•   Results
•   Discussion
•   Conclusions and Summary
•   References
<extensive snipage of very good analysis

Westy. I should say thank you, any person who has done any kind of research should know this by heart.

So, can we call this "report" a commercial (ad) for the MOB?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 10, 2011, 12:11:17 PM
The more I read about this the more it sounds like a con job.

No Muzh_1, I believe you are wrong. I'm sure Andrew has been very busy lately but soon he will find the time to come back and examine and explore other contributors comments and observations here which will then be the prelude for us to enter into a serious, pragmatic, logical and and realistic debate into the current state of the MOB business and the WM/FSUW dating scene in general.

We're a tough audience and Andrew knows it. Please allow him time to assimilate and ingest our postings prior to him penning his considered and in-depth thoughts and response.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 10, 2011, 12:15:21 PM
The more I read about this the more it sounds like a con job.

No Muzh_1, I believe you are wrong. I sure Andrew has been very busy lately but soon he will find the time to come back and examine and explore other contributors comments and observations here which will then be the prelude for us to enter into a serious, pragmatic, logical and and realistic debate into the current state of the MOB business and the WM/FSUW dating scene in general.

We're a tough audience and Andrew knows it. Please allow him time to assimilate and ingest our postings prior to him penning his considered and in-depth thoughts and response.  :popcorn:

Aaaaahhhhhh!

Gotcha!

BTW, this is my 501 post. I was expecting some sort of fireworks a la end of solitaire game on Windows.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 10, 2011, 12:17:18 PM
I sure Andrew has been very busy lately but soon he will find the time to come back and examine and explore other contributors comments and observations here which will then be the prelude for us to enter into a serious, pragmatic, logical and and realistic debate into the current state of the MOB business and the WM/FSUW dating scene in general.

I have suggested as such actually.  :nod:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 10, 2011, 12:35:31 PM
Quote from: Westy
Page 6, second paragraph, you speak of  "the declining supply of women" wanting to leave the FSU for life abroad.  Again no reference, just your word.  Even worse a recently published article in Businessweek has as its title "The Mail-Order-Bride Trade is Flourishing".  Why would anyone believe your article when an article in an online magazine that regularly interviews CEOs fortune 500 companies states exactly the opposite?

Westy,

Always, always, always check your sources/corroborative links, eh?

Now, Andrew doesn't really need me to answer to your post, he'll be able to that quite adequately himself as most of what you've questioned is already answered on this topic but seeing as you've decided to mention my (user) name, I'll answer to one or two if/when time permits:

Alright, the [edit : Businessweek] article - Or should I type the complete article:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/

And Mr. Weiner's take on what an international relationship/marriage is all about:

"For some companies, such submissiveness is a selling point. Hand-In-Hand's website trumpets the fact that its females are "unspoiled by feminism." Company founder Weiner argues this form of chauvinism — like the mail-order bride business itself — is economically motivated. "You take a beautiful woman from the Czech Republic and you bring her into your home, she does all your cooking and cleaning and ironing," he says. "At the end of the day, the service is free." Hand-In-Hand estimates the potential savings of a homemaking wife at $150 per week."

...Well that's just great. Please, keep linking these type of guys/owners as examples of the MOB 'industry' booming and Ill re adjust my estimate until the industry's demise (in it's current form) from two years to 12 months.

On to the "business is booming" statement. I bet it is, however, Mr Weiner sells franchise opportunities. Apparently, for a measly $16,000. to $20,000. (unknown if USD or Pounds Sterling) you too can own a home based marriage agency and seems he's sold a few.

http://www.gaebler.com/Hand-In-Hand.htm

http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200805/1210437431.html

I'm still looking into the franchise reviews (as a business) but I'm really not able to find anything (other than several Joe Weiner articles and websites) positive at all. A fair amount of "scam" articles and posts regarding Mr. Weiner and his agency but that's not my focus right now.

How does this tie into this topic (as put forward by yourself)? Well, Mr. Weiner would tell you business is booming as he was heading to the barrister to file bankruptcy-that's how. He's selling the business/industry itself, it's in his best interest to tell all those potential franchise owners out there in MOB land that business is good or he'd be cutting his own (business) throat.

I'm sorry to inform you it's your linked article that's the example of a not a very well researched paper, Westy. :chuckle:

Anyways, if/when I can dig up actual info on just how successful these individual franchises have been/are, I'll post it.


Brass


Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 10, 2011, 12:39:02 PM
BTW, this is my 501 post. I was expecting some sort of fireworks a la end of solitaire game on Windows.

At one time I believe you got to spend a week FOC in Manny's villa on the Côte d'Azur but sadly I understand that offer was revoked following an unfortunate incident with one of the maids and the incorrect usage of the term 'roast beef'.  :(

I sure Andrew has been very busy lately but soon he will find the time to come back and examine and explore other contributors comments and observations here which will then be the prelude for us to enter into a serious, pragmatic, logical and and realistic debate into the current state of the MOB business and the WM/FSUW dating scene in general.

I have suggested as such actually.  :nod:

Super news! I hope many more join the discussion as you cant beat a good old mass debate (IMO).
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 10, 2011, 01:16:04 PM
Very perceptive of you Brass, good work. Of course Mr Weiner has a commercial interest in telling us that business in on the up, but we shouldn't hold that spin against him, its normal.

Given your new findings could you conceive that the opposite might also be applicable and that when someone tells us the 'end is nigh' then there may also be a commercial incentive present for them to do so? I am reminded of the latter part of the last century when I was inundated with guys who assured me that come Jan 1st 2000 my business would go ‘BOOM’ unless I hired their very expensive services. Fortunately I dug a bit deeper and fortunately for me my initial scientism was right. IIRC I paid about £50 to have my date format extended and lived to tell the tale. Of course to a certain degree they we're correct in so much as I had to do something but it wasn't quite as catastrophic as they wanted me to believe.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 10, 2011, 01:22:08 PM
Vinny ~ I am still unsure as to what you have read.
If you have read the report you will note that I discuss what is happening, the social, legal and political environmental changes that are changing the way that the IMB niche of the online dating business is going to be able to operate. As you will also have noted I DO think that there is a way forward but unless changes are made then most, if not all, current IMB businesses will end up failing.
Some companies WILL adapt and thus survive almost no matter what happens.

As you may recall Vinny, Ed - your exemplar of success -  who, as I understand has no more than a couple of clients, may have found himself on the wrong end of even current Federal legislation, much less state level legislation. I recall a thread on another forum where this was discussed. The discussion there is, in principal, the kind of discussion that most service providers seem to be avoiding, in part because they simply are not aware of what is going on in the US. I do not know for sure about JB, but I bet he does not comply with state law in his home state.
This is the thing, it is normal that businesses, particularly small businesses, do not have the resources to ensure they are protected against discontinuous change. How can they be when they do not have the resources to monitor their own environment? One reason for writing this report was to open up a discussion that makes these issues more plain. I have to tell you that I am quite pleased with the number of people who are downloading the report who have Russian/Ukrainian names and come from the FSU, to judge by IP addresses.

How will a firm that makes a living by providing ground support services in Ukraine handle a sudden and steep drop n business from the US, if the US is their primary source of income?
How will a professional wingman/translator deal with the sudden disappearance of individual travellers chasing brides?
How will a New York based marriage agency with clients nationwide deal with the impact of differing state laws overlaid with implementation of federal laws?

Brass ~ You make good points about the BizWeek article. I posted about it on another forum. In addition to your points, the article is really only considering the DEMAND side of the business and not the SUPPLY side. The issue is inferred in the discussion about scams in the article where we can see that most scams are about 'girl not present' fraud whereas when the supply side was more in synch with demand we had 'girl present fraud' such as Green Card Fraud, a topic that is barely even mentioned these days.
But yes, with 'success stories' such as those mentioned in the article the industry shoots itself in the foot with every word printed.

Westcoast ~ thanks for your comments and advice about writing a report in your chosen format. When I need to write such a document I will be sure to contact you to ask for your advice.

In general ~ I host most of my sites on a dedicated server, sadly the server is coming under attack on an ongoing basis. The attack is focused upon one of my more active sites but the effect is to slow down service across all sites. At the time you guys noted last night I was rebooting the server, an activity that has become necessary on an almost daily basis since Christmas. I am working closely with my hosting firm to deal with the issue but this is one of those things where short of spending huge amounts of money we just have to ride out the storm. That said I might move the main site over to a CDN for some parts of the pages. The situation is much improved since just before New Year when the server was waaaaaay more rocky than makes me happy!

At the moment I am in Spain, Vinny might want to recheck his guessing though! Hopefully I will be going home in a few days. The noise you all noted was the pool pump, I hope the noise did not disturb your appreciation of my golden words. :)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 10, 2011, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: Westy
Page 6, second paragraph, you speak of  "the declining supply of women" wanting to leave the FSU for life abroad.  Again no reference, just your word.  Even worse a recently published article in Businessweek has as its title "The Mail-Order-Bride Trade is Flourishing".  Why would anyone believe your article when an article in an online magazine that regularly interviews CEOs fortune 500 companies states exactly the opposite?

Westy,

Always, always, always check your sources/corroborative links, eh?

Now, Andrew doesn't really need me to answer to your post, he'll be able to that quite adequately himself as most of what you've questioned is already answered on this topic but seeing as you've decided to mention my (user) name, I'll answer to one or two if/when time permits:

Alright, the [edit : Businessweek] article - Or should I type the complete article:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/

And Mr. Weiner's take on what an international relationship/marriage is all about:

"For some companies, such submissiveness is a selling point. Hand-In-Hand's website trumpets the fact that its females are "unspoiled by feminism." Company founder Weiner argues this form of chauvinism — like the mail-order bride business itself — is economically motivated. "You take a beautiful woman from the Czech Republic and you bring her into your home, she does all your cooking and cleaning and ironing," he says. "At the end of the day, the service is free." Hand-In-Hand estimates the potential savings of a homemaking wife at $150 per week."

...Well that's just great. Please, keep linking these type of guys/owners as examples of the MOB 'industry' booming and Ill re adjust my estimate until the industry's demise (in it's current form) from two years to 12 months.

On to the "business is booming" statement. I bet it is, however, Mr Weiner sells franchise opportunities. Apparently, for a measly $16,000. to $20,000. (unknown if USD or Pounds Sterling) you too can own a home based marriage agency and seems he's sold a few.

http://www.gaebler.com/Hand-In-Hand.htm

http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200805/1210437431.html

I'm still looking into the franchise reviews (as a business) but I'm really not able to find anything (other than several Joe Weiner articles and websites) positive at all. A fair amount of "scam" articles and posts regarding Mr. Weiner and his agency but that's not my focus right now.

How does this tie into this topic (as put forward by yourself)? Well, Mr. Weiner would tell you business is booming as he was heading to the barrister to file bankruptcy-that's how. He's selling the business/industry itself, it's in his best interest to tell all those potential franchise owners out there in MOB land that business is good or he'd be cutting his own (business) throat.

I'm sorry to inform you it's your linked article that's the example of a not a very well researched paper, Westy. :chuckle:

Anyways, if/when I can dig up actual info on just how successful these individual franchises have been/are, I'll post it.


Brass

Brass you didn't mention the section in the article that dealt with AFA and their "nearly 1,000 engagements this year" or how "International matchmakers are now a growing segment of the U.S. online dating industry". 

You also had no comment about my statements on Andrew's near total lack of supporting sources for his many statements in his "research report".  If you consider the Businessweek article "a not a very well researched paper" then what is your opinion of Andrew's "research report"?  A "research report" that mostly doesn't bother to list supporting documentation for his statements, some of which I listed in my previous post. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 10, 2011, 01:48:57 PM
Westcoast, take it from me, the number of men looking at pictures of pretty 'Russian' girls is increasing. As a proportion of the booming online dating realm I sincerely doubt that the IMB business is matching that growth.

Do AFA have almost 1000 'engagements' per year?
First, I'd want to know what they mean by engagement! Is that the number of people who in the words of some agencies 'commit' to each other? Or is it the number of men who end up filling out K-1 visa applications per year, or is it the number of K-1s issues to AFA clients?
The thing is that most people in the FSU don't get 'engaged' as people do in the US. The process is much shorter in timeframe and much more direct.
Next, what is the figure for marriages?
There is a reason why AFA use the term 'engagements' and that is because it is MUCH greater in pretty much whatever terms you might choose to use than the number of marriages! I somehow doubt that AFA is responsible for the generation of around 3% of the K1 visas issued each year. ;)

Westcoast why on earth should Brass be expected to review what I wrote for you? Are you not a big enough boy to form your own opinion?
In the end, no matter whether I referenced everything as you learned at nightschool or college, the point is surely to discuss the issues raised and they are not exactly unclear are they? Surely to bang on about the format is silly waste of time and just noise making.

Do YOU agree with the proposition that the Russian bride business is in trouble or not?
If not, why not?
Does the current social, legal, economic and political environment tend to foster a growing and vibrant industry? If so how does that work exactly?
If you agree with the proposition I made then going on about the headings that you would have used if you wrote something you did not write is not moving the discussion forward, is it?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 10, 2011, 02:34:02 PM
Brass you didn't mention the section in the article that dealt with AFA and their "nearly 1,000 engagements this year" or how "International matchmakers are now a growing segment of the U.S. online dating industry". 

You also had no comment about my statements on Andrew's near total lack of supporting sources for his many statements in his "research report".  If you consider the Businessweek article "a not a very well researched paper" then what is your opinion of Andrew's "research report"?  A "research report" that mostly doesn't bother to list supporting documentation for his statements, some of which I listed in my previous post.

Oh my goodness Westy, you do this to me everytime.  I show you a link you've submitted is faulty and you come back with the "Yeah, but what about this para or that sentence..." :laugh: Look, the article, whether in it's edited or complete version was not researched correctly (lack of due diligence comes to mind) and as far as I'm concerned *everything* as reported is now subject to scrutiny. So please don't ask me to comment on other segments of a discredited article, eh?

I've already posted I concur with Andrew's report - on this very topic...I didn't comment on your posting a bunch of gobbledygook about how to write a research paper (your particular version being in itself almost as subjective as the professor/lecturer/editor you happen to be submitting the paper to) because I just didn't see it as being particularly relevent (imo). 

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 10, 2011, 02:55:15 PM
Very perceptive of you Brass, good work. Of course Mr Weiner has a commercial interest in telling us that business in on the up, but we shouldn't hold that spin against him, its normal.

Thankyou Vinny, I just wish those posting the links would take a few minutes and do their own research.

Quote from: Vinny
Given your new findings could you conceive that the opposite might also be applicable and that when someone tells us the 'end is nigh' then there may also be a commercial incentive present for them to do so? I am reminded of the latter part of the last century when I was inundated with guys who assured me that come Jan 1st 2000 my business would go ‘BOOM’ unless I hired their very expensive services. Fortunately I dug a bit deeper and fortunately for me my initial scientism was right. IIRC I paid about £50 to have my date format extended and lived to tell the tale. Of course to a certain degree they we're correct in so much as I had to do something but it wasn't quite as catastrophic as they wanted me to believe.

I myself have been posting (when it's come up) that the MOB 'industry' has hit a glass ceiling and won't survive in it's current form (in so many words) for some time, Vin. :)

Maybe yes, maybe no but like Y2K, we'll know soon enough. ;D

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 10, 2011, 04:01:20 PM
Westcoast, take it from me, the number of men looking at pictures of pretty 'Russian' girls is increasing. As a proportion of the booming online dating realm I sincerely doubt that the IMB business is matching that growth.

Do AFA have almost 1000 'engagements' per year?
First, I'd want to know what they mean by engagement! Is that the number of people who in the words of some agencies 'commit' to each other? Or is it the number of men who end up filling out K-1 visa applications per year, or is it the number of K-1s issues to AFA clients?
The thing is that most people in the FSU don't get 'engaged' as people do in the US. The process is much shorter in timeframe and much more direct.
Next, what is the figure for marriages?
There is a reason why AFA use the term 'engagements' and that is because it is MUCH greater in pretty much whatever terms you might choose to use than the number of marriages! I somehow doubt that AFA is responsible for the generation of around 3% of the K1 visas issued each year. ;)

Westcoast why on earth should Brass be expected to review what I wrote for you? Are you not a big enough boy to form your own opinion?
In the end, no matter whether I referenced everything as you learned at nightschool or college, the point is surely to discuss the issues raised and they are not exactly unclear are they? Surely to bang on about the format is silly waste of time and just noise making.

Do YOU agree with the proposition that the Russian bride business is in trouble or not?
If not, why not?
Does the current social, legal, economic and political environment tend to foster a growing and vibrant industry? If so how does that work exactly?
If you agree with the proposition I made then going on about the headings that you would have used if you wrote something you did not write is not moving the discussion forward, is it?

Andrew once again you are Americanizing the entire international matchmaking industry when you use terms likes K-1 visa.  The term is entirely appropriate only for Americans.  When I considered taking a AFA tour several years ago (prior to the economic collapse) I looked at AFA tours and found that while most of their tour participants were Americans, other tour participants also included Canadians, Brits and even other EU citizens who took the "land only" option.   

Andrew I formed my own opinion, I gave it.   Remember when I called your report something similar to the fake Viagra spam I get in my email? Brass and one or two others thought I was being too hard on you.  Thus my recent post, a somewhat more detailed analysis of your report on why it lacks any characteristics of a competent research report.  I was showing Brass and others that indeed I was correct in my statement that your research report is spam.

Brass in turn pointed to some shortcomings of an article I posted refuting your research report.  Fair enough.  Although in all fairness I think if Brass is going to give comments on articles I post and on my opinions of your report he should really post some comments on the highlights of your report.  What he thought you got right and what you got wrong.  But that's just my opinion. 

Is the Russian bride business in trouble?  If by Russian bride business you mean women from all over the FSU marrying foreigners then no I don't think it is in trouble.  Your comment about small photo studios on some street in St. Pete being replaced by upmarket businesses is irrelevant.  Maybe the photo studios moved to other areas of the city because of increased rent?  Perhaps they were bought out by larger photo studios?  There are at least 5 or 6 other reasons the photo studios are gone, your statement that their departure is symptomatic of a decline in the Russian bride business is not rational.

Another reason that I don't think the Russian bride business is not in trouble is the increase in computer availability and the Internet in the FSU.  Add to this the development of Russian language sites, some of which are dating or matchmaking sites.  This has been mentioned on RUA, another forum and RMP.  I've even browsed through several of the sites.  True I didn't understand most of the posts because they were in Russian, but there was more English than I would have thought.  Not just English, but fluent, native English, obviously from a westerner.  Perhaps the Russian bride business isn't in decline but moving is several, different directions?

Andrew did you investigate these Russian language sites and analyze them to determine if they were drawing Russian speaking women away from AFA and other English language matchmaking sites?  Some of these sites are claiming membership in the tens of millions.  I know you've rather proudly claimed that you don't speak Russian and have no intention of learning but surely you have research assistant(s) or colleagues that speak Russian and could do the analysis of the Russian language sites.  Just a few thoughts to keep you busy and something for others to ponder.

Andrew since I don't agree that the Russian bride business is in trouble, my point isn't to move discussion forward.  My point is to show that your research report is not a research report but a piece of spam that you are using to make a buck.  I don't begrudge people earning a living but when they produce spam and call it a research report worthy of comprehensive discussion then I feel obligated to point out the shortcomings of the spam research report. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 10, 2011, 04:22:27 PM
My point is to show that your research report is not a research report but a piece of spam that you are using to make a buck.  I don't begrudge people earning a living but when they produce spam and call it a research report worthy of comprehensive discussion then I feel obligated to point out the shortcomings of the spam research report.

How can something be spam when giving an email address is optional, further mailings can be opted out of, and it can be read without giving an email anyway?  ???

How can someone make a buck by paying a buck per download?

Quote from: Westy
Another reason that I don't think the Russian bride business is not in trouble is the increase in computer availability and the Internet in the FSU.  Add to this the development of Russian language sites, some of which are dating or matchmaking sites.  This has been mentioned on RUA, another forum and RMP.  I've even browsed through several of the sites.  True I didn't understand most of the posts because they were in Russian, but there was more English than I would have thought.  Not just English, but fluent, native English, obviously from a westerner.  Perhaps the Russian bride business isn't in decline but moving is several, different directions?

Now you are thinking a little! Hold those thoughts and expand on them....... how should the industry evolve in your armchair opinion?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 10, 2011, 04:23:02 PM
Thank you for your reply Andrew, it was interesting indeed. Allow me to correct just a couple of your comments if you don’t mind.

For clarification purposes I have watched your videos and read your report. There is no need to be unsure anymore. I questioned some of the content of your report specifically where you have stated that the Russian Bride business is dead when clearly it isn’t. I gave you example to support my observations although contrary to your reply I did not state they were examples of success, I never commented on that aspect of their business. As for whether Ed and Jack are operating legally I hardly think this is the place or either the duty of third parties to discuss such matters. I note however that as you have brought into the debate the aspect of mercantilism (I corrected your earlier misspelling) that included 'beggar my neighbour’ and it is now you that seems to have adapted such an approach. You commercial members eh, what are you like!  ;D

As I have already indicated, I believe ‘on the ground’ services in the FSU will continue to receive serious clients from both the USA and the rest of the world. Sure, an American client may in the future have to jump through a few more hoops and blow a few whistles but in the overall scheme of things the tremendous effort involved in searching for and acquiring a 2nd half from the FSU then my opinion is that in itself will do nothing to slow down the numbers. As a frequent flyer I can remember the horror that was presented to me a few years back when I was told I couldn't smoke on a plane any more. It never stopped me flying though as I wanted to fly. More recently I can remember when airport security consisted of no more than nodding your head in the direction of a security officer. Now on a good day (and if I'm lucky) I have to take most of my clothes off to get to duty free. Again, it hasn't stopped me flying because my goal is more important than the restrictions placed before me.

You cited the problems of a ‘New York’ marriage agency and presumably by inference all other USA based related businesses. My opinion, as voiced earlier, is that they provide very little by the way of being catalysts in producing actual marriages, which is the only goal that should concern us on these forums. Having said that then I am in no doubt that they will adapt to any new environments they may find themselves in, although as previously witnessed, only a miniscule percentage of their clients will have a need to visit a jeweller.

I look forward to your replies to the several other observations and questions I asked when you return home and have a little more time to address them.

Brass: I agree that without doubt certain parts of the industry have had there time, for one reason or another and certainly not limited to possible legislation instigated in the USA . But, as I conveyed to Andrew, this is far from a complete demise of the industry as a whole as he has told us. Serious and experienced guys on these forums and elsewhere know better than to spend money ‘chatting’ to teenagers younger than our offspring if their austere intentions are to find a loving and long term relationship. A bit like a certain type of fish … the strong and good ones will get through to their target, Mother Nature has made sure of that.  tiphat
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 10, 2011, 04:41:45 PM
Andrew, Brass and 1 or 2 other forum members think that I am being too hard on you by equating your report with the Viagra or fake Rolex spam most people get in their email boxes.  I'm now going to tell you and others why I'm not being hard enough on you and your report.
One forum member brought up the point that your report is double spaced and uses a large type font.  I see nothing wrong with this, in fact some organizations insist on this type of spacing and font size.  It simply makes it easier to read the report either on screen or when printed out.
First thing to consider is what is how is a research report organized? This link (http://portal.acs.org/portal/fileFetch/C/CTP_005606/pdf/CTP_005606.pdf) gives the sections that are customary in a research report.  The sections are:
•   Title
•   Abstract
•   Introduction
•   Experimental Details or Theoretical Analysis
•   Results
•   Discussion
•   Conclusions and Summary
•   References
<extensive snipage of very good analysis

Westy. I should say thank you, any person who has done any kind of research should know this by heart.

So, can we call this "report" a commercial (ad) for the MOB?

It's an advertorial.... period.

The two of you are astute enough to know that already. Don't worry the seedy internet marketing squad is already polishing it's diatribe from the feedback received for the coming sales pitch.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 10, 2011, 06:05:43 PM
My point is to show that your research report is not a research report but a piece of spam that you are using to make a buck.  I don't begrudge people earning a living but when they produce spam and call it a research report worthy of comprehensive discussion then I feel obligated to point out the shortcomings of the spam research report.

How can something be spam when giving an email address is optional, further mailings can be opted out of, and it can be read without giving an email anyway?  ???

How can someone make a buck by paying a buck per download?

Quote from: Westy
Another reason that I don't think the Russian bride business is not in trouble is the increase in computer availability and the Internet in the FSU.  Add to this the development of Russian language sites, some of which are dating or matchmaking sites.  This has been mentioned on RUA, another forum and RMP.  I've even browsed through several of the sites.  True I didn't understand most of the posts because they were in Russian, but there was more English than I would have thought.  Not just English, but fluent, native English, obviously from a westerner.  Perhaps the Russian bride business isn't in decline but moving is several, different directions?

Now you are thinking a little! Hold those thoughts and expand on them....... how should the industry evolve in your armchair opinion?

Manny please note that I said that Andrew's research report is "like" or "similar" to spam. Andrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.  It's spamlike in that it is making claims without any substance or facts. 

Second sentence of the report "The business of matching up men and women from the Former Soviet Republics is dead and all involved are criminals", are you a criminal Manny?  Is Eduard?  Andrew provides no examples of this, not a single example.  A research report is suppose to be based on facts, yet he starts off his research report with some wild accusation with no sources, none.

Andrew also covers the topic of legislation and how it is suppose to affect international marriage bureaux and their clients, some of the legislation has been on the books for years, yet he does not give one example of how the legislation has affected marriage brokers or their clients.

Sensational claims without substance, sounds like spam to me.

As for the dollar how am I suppose to receive it, please tell me how he's going to send it to me?  Nothing in my email about sending him my home address or Paypal info.

As for how the Russian bride business is going to "evolve" I would think that the "evolving" would involve the Internet, computers, webcams and social networking in some manner.  Manny evolving of an industry is not the same as the death of an industry.   
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 10, 2011, 06:18:35 PM
Manny please note that I said that Andrew's research report is "like" or "similar" to spam.

Clean your specs. I quoted what you said.  :-\

Quote from: Westy
Andrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.

No email address is required.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 10, 2011, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: Westy
As for the dollar how am I suppose to receive it, please tell me how he's going to send it to me?  Nothing in my email about sending him my home address or Paypal info.

Its right there on the affiliate page -- by Paypal.

Westy, please wipe the rabid foam from your mouth and quote accurately eh?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 10, 2011, 07:13:03 PM

Quote from: Westy
Andrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.

No email address is required.

Manny what do you mean no email is required?  Remember this http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/index.html it was one of your posts on December 29, 2010, at 01:33:32 PM.  There's no address required now because most members complained. 

Manny you didn't answer my post about your criminal record and Eduard's criminal record.  Andrew's research report says all people involved in the Russian bride business are criminals. 

Perhaps Ed, being in the Russian bride business, should ask Andrew to remove that phrase from his research report.  After all if an American man was thinking of getting involved in finding a women from the FSU and read Andrew's report the man might have a very negative opinion of Ed and his business.   
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 10, 2011, 07:46:37 PM
I think what some of the critics of the report are missing is that the US government is slowly but surely taking a stand against the foreign bride industry as a whole. People have cited that reference to older laws that have not been enforced have been made and the information presented as "new". I see that of course, and I see why some of the sources Andrew has used to date have been criticised. But he has further parts to come.

Where??  How??  You say the the US government is slowly but surely taking a stand . . .  Again, I ask, where?  How??

IMBRA hasn't changed.  They've finally got around to printing a required pamphlet 5 years late.  That hardly qualifies as "taking a stand."

There is absolutely ZERO currently filed in the new session of Congress.  In case you don't understand how our process works, any Bill filed that does not become law, dies when the Legislative session it was filed in ends.  Anything you might have heard about that was previously filed is now dead.  Those Bills have to start over and given the current trend in the political climate, stuff like this hasn't got a snowballs chance.


Quote
When I first heard that legislative changes are on the way in the US (which was a few months back), these states mentioned were given as an example of laws that can be woken up in a heartbeat when the political will dictates it.

Any of that is now dead.  But it would certainly help your credibility to quote what those "legislative changes" were.

And further more, please explain how "3" constitutes "Many."  Those were your words.  "Many states" allegedly did this.  3 hardly comes close to many unless your total is 5, but then we are talking about 64 legal jurisdictions (50 States and 14 Territories) and 3 out of 64 don't even get close.

The Industry is changing due to economics.  Plain and simple.  The feminist types have always attempted to push this kind of agenda and will continue to do so.  Their efforts are flea bites, annoying but hardly detrimental.





-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 10, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Another subject that is interlaced with this one is this: If we are agreed that the MOB industry in its current form is likely to be more regulated in the future, you will agree that the industry is going to have to reform in some way.

That's the problem.  This "assumption" that the industry is likely to be more regulated in the future is erroneous. 

The radical feminists have ALWAYS been pushing this kind of regulated message and will continue to do so.  In the last 8 years, only 2 additional States have attempted to co-operate with these radical folks, one passed and one failed.  That's hardly a trend that warrants the kind of mass hysteria surrounding this report.



-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 10, 2011, 08:15:46 PM
Seriously Vinny, if you disagree with the thrust of my argument, that the Russian bride business is not in difficulty, that disruptive change is not coming then tell me, how is that not so?

That's simple.  The very basis of what you claim are the signs that spell doom are erroneous.  That makes your conclusions erroneous.

The industry is changing, but it's not in difficulty.  That's like claiming the retail industry is in difficulty because Wal-Mart moved into town and the mom & pop hardware store closed.


-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 10, 2011, 08:59:40 PM

Quote from: Westy
Andrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.

No email address is required.

Manny what do you mean no email is required?  Remember this http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/index.html it was one of your posts on December 29, 2010, at 01:33:32 PM.  There's no address required now because most members complained.

...Which would mean * no email address is required *, unless I'm mistaken, Westy. Off on a bit of a jag aren't you? :chuckle:

Westy said:
"Manny you didn't answer my post about your criminal record and Eduard's criminal record.  Andrew's research report says all people involved in the Russian bride business are criminals." 
[/quote]

...And then qualifies that statement and puts it into context in the very next para including..."Women’s Interest Groups are putting the squeeze on Congress to criminalize YOU! "

Westy said:
"Perhaps Ed, being in the Russian bride business, should ask Andrew to remove that phrase from his research report.  After all if an American man was thinking of getting involved in finding a women from the FSU and read Andrew's report the man might have a very negative opinion of Ed and his business."
[/quote]

So, let's take a look at your statements and what Andrew's talking about in a balanced nonmilitant, attack anything and everything associated with Andrew or his report kinda way, shall we?

Here is how one special interest group defines the MOB:

"Sexual exploitation
A practice by which a person achieves sexual gratification, financial gain or advancement through the abuse or exploitation of a person’s sexuality by abrogating that person’s human right to dignity, equality, autonomy, and physical and mental well-being; i.e. trafficking, prostitution, prostitution tourism, *mail-order-bride trade*, pornography, stripping, battering, incest, rape and sexual harassment...."

"Pimp
One who promotes and/or profits from the sale and/or abuse of another person’s body or sexuality for sexual purposes, or the production and/or sale images made of that person, e.g. trafficker, pornographer, brothel madam, third party manager, talent director, mamasan, *mail-order bride agent*, prostitution tour agent."

"Sex industry
The collection of legal and illegal businesses and single and multi-party operations that profit from the sexual exploitation of women, children, and sometimes, men in trafficking, organized prostitution, and/or pornography; e.g. brothels, massage parlors, bars, strip clubs, *mail-order-bride agencies*, prostitution tour agencies, "adult entertainment," "adult" bookstores, pornographic Web sites."

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/readingroom.shtml?x=16747

And one from Canada:

"The word is slavery for us," said Josephine Pallard, the executive director of Changing Together, a centre for immigrant women in Edmonton"

MOB offer traditional marriage roles (http://www.canada.com/life/Mail+order+brides+offer+traditional+marriage+roles/2640863/story.html)

So, within the terminology and context these organizations have defined the MOB agencies and brokers; I would say that pretty well denotes criminality in my book, wouldn't you?

Read both links, they're an eye opener...even forums are given honourable mention. :chuckle:

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 10, 2011, 09:05:47 PM

Quote from: Westy
Andrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.

No email address is required.

Manny what do you mean no email is required?  Remember this http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/index.html it was one of your posts on December 29, 2010, at 01:33:32 PM.  There's no address required now because most members complained.

...Which would mean * no email address is required *, unless I'm mistaken, Westy. Off on a bit of a jag aren't you? :chuckle:

They were going back and forth about how someone was going to collect their wooden nickels from Andrew if he didn't have any of the readers information to pay them with.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 10, 2011, 09:33:36 PM
They were going back and forth about how someone was going to collect their wooden nickels from Andrew if he didn't have any of the readers information to pay them with.

If you're talking about the "making a buck" post above, that was in reference to spam. As in spam by definition is designed/produced to generate money, not give it away. :-X

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13322.msg192009.html#msg192009

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 10, 2011, 09:46:31 PM

Quote from: Westy
Andrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.

No email address is required.

Manny what do you mean no email is required?  Remember this http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/index.html it was one of your posts on December 29, 2010, at 01:33:32 PM.  There's no address required now because most members complained.

...Which would mean * no email address is required *, unless I'm mistaken, Westy. Off on a bit of a jag aren't you? :chuckle:

Westy said:
"Manny you didn't answer my post about your criminal record and Eduard's criminal record.  Andrew's research report says all people involved in the Russian bride business are criminals." 

...And then qualifies that statement and puts it into context in the very next para including..."Women’s Interest Groups are putting the squeeze on Congress to criminalize YOU! "

Westy said:
"Perhaps Ed, being in the Russian bride business, should ask Andrew to remove that phrase from his research report.  After all if an American man was thinking of getting involved in finding a women from the FSU and read Andrew's report the man might have a very negative opinion of Ed and his business."
[/quote]

So, let's take a look at your statements and what Andrew's talking about in a balanced nonmilitant attack anything and everything associated with Andrew or his report kinda way, shall we?

Here is how one special interest group defines the MOB:

"Sexual exploitation
A practice by which a person achieves sexual gratification, financial gain or advancement through the abuse or exploitation of a person’s sexuality by abrogating that person’s human right to dignity, equality, autonomy, and physical and mental well-being; i.e. trafficking, prostitution, prostitution tourism, *mail-order-bride trade*, pornography, stripping, battering, incest, rape and sexual harassment...."

"Pimp
One who promotes and/or profits from the sale and/or abuse of another person’s body or sexuality for sexual purposes, or the production and/or sale images made of that person, e.g. trafficker, pornographer, brothel madam, third party manager, talent director, mamasan, *mail-order bride agent*, prostitution tour agent."

"Sex industry
The collection of legal and illegal businesses and single and multi-party operations that profit from the sexual exploitation of women, children, and sometimes, men in trafficking, organized prostitution, and/or pornography; e.g. brothels, massage parlors, bars, strip clubs, *mail-order-bride agencies*, prostitution tour agencies, "adult entertainment," "adult" bookstores, pornographic Web sites."

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/readingroom.shtml?x=16747

And one from Canada:

"The word is slavery for us," said Josephine Pallard, the executive director of Changing Together, a centre for immigrant women in Edmonton"

MOB offer traditional marriage roles (http://www.canada.com/life/Mail+order+brides+offer+traditional+marriage+roles/2640863/story.html)

So, within the terminology and context these organizations have defined the MOB agencies and brokers; I would say that pretty well denotes criminality in my book, wouldn't you?

Read both links, they're an eye opener...even forums are given honourable mention. :chuckle:

Brass
[/quote]

Brass in this single post of yours you supplied more information than Andrew had in his entire "research report".  How long did this research take you?  Obviously Andrew didn't take even that much time for his research report. 

As for this group having an interest in the MOB and defining it in some way that you and I would find wrong, that's free speech in action.  I've actually heard worse, my ex has been involved with many different people when doing her immigration work.  I've been asked to leave the room several times because some group doesn't want a man hearing them speak. 

I spent years in banking and my ex is a lawyer both careers that some people and groups have very negative views of, you were a soldier another career that attracts negative comments from some people.  It is a free country and some people take a little more liberty than others with their free speech.

However, I haven't heard about any changes in the immigration system in Canada that would outlaw or criminalize the mail order bride business and with the number of Asians and Indians living in greater Vancouver if something was going on it would make the news.  As for the US I haven't seen anything on RUA, another forum or RMP about impediments that IMBRA or the other legislation have introduced into the marriages of women and met meeting through EM or other marriage agencies.

Brass I just can't find anything in Andrew's research report that qualifies it as anything other than spam or fantasy. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 10, 2011, 10:18:43 PM
Brass in this single post of yours you supplied more information than Andrew had in his entire "research report".  How long did this research take you?  Obviously Andrew didn't take even that much time for his research report.

Flattery will get you nowhere, Westy. ;D

Quote from: Westy
As for this group having an interest in the MOB and defining it in some way that you and I would find wrong, that's free speech in action.  I've actually heard worse, my ex has been involved with many different people when doing her immigration work.  I've been asked to leave the room several times because some group doesn't want a man hearing them speak. 

I spent years in banking and my ex is a lawyer both careers that some people and groups have very negative views of, you were a soldier another career that attracts negative comments from some people.  It is a free country and some people take a little more liberty than others with their free speech.

Absolutely. Some of the work these organizations do is needed. The problems they describe in a lot of cases exists.

Quote from: Westy
"However, I haven't heard about any changes in the immigration system in Canada that would outlaw or criminalize the mail order bride business and with the number of Asians and Indians living in greater Vancouver if something was going on it would make the news.  As for the US I haven't seen anything on RUA, another forum or RMP about impediments that IMBRA or the other legislation have introduced into the marriages of women and met meeting through EM or other marriage agencies."

Misha and I had a conversation upthread regarding the CIC, I think froid made a comment or two as well. My contention was that regardless of the policies or whether or not CIC is tightening up, it's what the special interest groups are working towards and trying to accomplish.

Quote from: Westy
"Brass I just can't find anything in Andrew's research report that qualifies it as anything other than spam or fantasy."

Spam...OR fantasy? Can I take that to mean you're warming up to Andrew's report then?...JUST KIDDING!!! :chuckle:

Brass

[Folks, I'm sorry about the codes (quotes, italics, bold, etc.). Just post as you normally would. Herrie or Manny will take a look and fix it as soon as possible. I simply don't have the techie skills to make the repairs. :biggrin:]
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 10, 2011, 11:05:18 PM

If you're talking about the "making a buck" post above, that was in reference to spam. As in spam by definition is designed/produced to generate money, not give it away. :-X

Baloney. Spam does not at all have to be commercial. As Wikipedia puts it (to give just one example):

"Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic)

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 10, 2011, 11:39:16 PM

If you're talking about the "making a buck" post above, that was in reference to spam. As in spam by definition is designed/produced to generate money, not give it away. :-X

Baloney. Spam does not at all have to be commercial. As Wikipedia puts it (to give just one example):

"Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic)

...However, still included in the definition as "usually of a commercial nature, therefore still part of the definition.

"Unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Spam

"Unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)—this more restrictive definition is used by regulators whose mandate is to regulate commerce, such as the U.S"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mail_spam

So, within the context of the post I linked, was discussing with ECR and accepted definitions of what constitutes spam by normal and legal definitions...

"The Controlling the Assault of Non-Solicited Pornography and Marketing Act requires unsolicited commercial e-mail messages to be labeled (though not by a standard method) and to include opt-out instructions and the sender's physical address"

"Spam is a slang term that describes unsolicited commercial advertisements sent by e-mail over the Internet."

http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/spam/

...I think I'm on pretty solid ground, thanks anyway, David. ;)

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ade on January 10, 2011, 11:55:09 PM
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.

As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.

Andrew & Manny, what say you?

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 11, 2011, 12:13:21 AM
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.

As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.

Andrew & Manny, what say you?

 Glad I'll be talking to my publisher next week, if I can croon a buck or three off my trip report, well then god dammit I'm going to!  tiphat

   Just a worthless observation,
 I find it quite interesting that Americans make up the bulk of the men looking for bride overseas(so we're told), yet they have barely raised an eyebrow on this 'report'  Some like DWFUNK have surfaced to voice their knowledge in the matter of this 'report'. While Canadians such as Westy and Brass have gone to great lengths to explain their side of the sham or spam or report, depending who's camp you wish to side with.

 One other thing.. why doesn't that CEO of RHB get his ASS over here to debate with Manny and Andy as they seem so keen to have a indepth discussion of this topic.  Boys why so anxious to keep the conversation moving? I find it all quite interesting if its all for no future profit.  I've been around here long enough and can't ever think of the Estonian duo so focused to keep this flowing.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 11, 2011, 12:20:12 AM
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.

As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.

Andrew & Manny, what say you?

Old news Ade.  Sculpto started the rumour and Voyager, Shakey and Manny have all said it's not so.  It's on another forum.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 11, 2011, 02:16:51 AM
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.

As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.

Andrew & Manny, what say you?

Depends which rumour you listen to Ade. A couple of weeks ago it was HRB, this week the revised version I heard was AFA.  :chuckle:  A couple of months ago a few one post wonders were trolling the net claiming another forum had been bought by Anastasia. Most of these rumours can be traced back to a certain ancient Greek who is banned from most sites and spends most of his days pecking at his keyboard, in his tinfoil hat, making stuff like this up for fun.  :coffeeread:

Don't believe everything you hear.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 11, 2011, 03:49:01 AM
Don ~ after spending so much time on your hunt for a woman who will marry you I think you SHOULD write about it and, yes, the words are all here - and I am sure elsewhere. There is, as long as you have learned from the process, something that we can learn from the process.

Knowing something of the effort that Manny has put into his magnum opus I can counsel that the work of writing is just the start though!

Writing for money is a business and MUST be treated as such, the words don't magically waft onto people's screens, onto magazine pages and printed books; each word is sold, sold and then sold again.

David and others ~ IF you agree to receive email communication then by definition it can not be spam because 'unwanted' is the key word in any authoritative definition of the concept that you choose. If you choose to not receive any more communication then as long as you tell the sender and they abide by your wishes then again, there is no spam. David, you should KNOW this stuff, it is basic and you did have some legal training, yes? So, why not stop trying to mislead people who you might expect to know less than you and get on with either staying shtum or contributing to the discussion.

BTW everybody reading this! ~ After just a few days, the term "death of a Russian bride" now has some 28,000 references in Google's index, it was almost zero before the launch of the report.
The viral element of the promotion has kicked in with over 30% of signups to download the report resulting from referrals from people who had themselves downloaded the report.
Best of all, for all the whining from those who think that email is just such a dreadful thing to receive, the opt in rate from the page at www.andrewwilsonnews.com is just shy of 92%, so, only 8% of ALL the people visiting that page for the first time do NOT sign up to receive the report. And that, even though I have in several places, including this thread, published a list of links where people can read the document without giving up an email address. ;)

The true objective of this project was to open a discussion. With over 7000 page views from just under 300 posts on this forum alone in less than 14 days, that goal is being achieved. There is no way that I could, or would, have written as many words on this topic, come up with as many ideas as we have together and even a some information resources I had not come across. Thanks guys!

As I think I may have noted already, we are now seeing quite a few folks turning up from the FSU. This is very good as these people are almost certain to be pretty much unaware of changes to the social, legal and political environment in the US and other countries. I do not know how many are turning up here as readers, I hope that some are. Let us make 'em welcome, eh?

All we need now are some posters from Tahirih Justice Center and a few other places and we can start to have a REAL discussion. You guys are not monsters and those who think differently to you, well, they are folks too!

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ade on January 11, 2011, 03:56:34 AM
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.

As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.

Andrew & Manny, what say you?

Depends which rumour you listen to Ade. A couple of weeks ago it was HRB, this week the revised version I heard was AFA.  :chuckle:  A couple of months ago a few one post wonders were trolling the net claiming another forum had been bought by Anastasia. Most of these rumours can be traced back to a certain ancient Greek who is banned from most sites and spends most of his days pecking at his keyboard, in his tinfoil hat, making stuff like this up for fun.  :coffeeread:

Don't believe everything you hear.

As I said to you over on another forum Manny; but still no explicit denial of course. But it seems I was a little off in some of the details though and someone kindly pointed that out to me; it looks as though you are somehow affiliated with AFA these days. True or not? Is Andrew also somehow linked into this with you in some way? It's fairly obvious why I ask and what the relevance is to Andy's report isn't it?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 11, 2011, 04:46:52 AM
Ade, the Death of a Russian Bride report is my work, my initiative and has been supported by Stuart because he sees benefit in doing so. I am very glad that he, and others on his management team, see it that way. Thanks guys!

I confess that I don't see how relevant the ownership of this forum is to the work that I have done. Stuart has told you explicitly, and it ain't hard to figure out, that he is an affiliate for AFA (along with Elena's Models and my project!) You will also see ad units that are carrying ads provided by Google's Adsense programme.

Why on earth should you think that you deserve or have a right to know the inner workings of Manny's business. Frankly, you don't.
You use a facility provided by Manny, at no cost to you. The facility DOES have a cost but you are not asked to foot the bill.

The affiliate links exist, the ads exist, you do not have to click on them, but you have the privilege of being a part of this community whether or not you click. Enjoy.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 11, 2011, 04:57:45 AM

The industry is changing, but it's not in difficulty.  That's like claiming the retail industry is in difficulty because Wal-Mart moved into town and the mom & pop hardware store closed.

-david

Hmm... wanna ask some smaller retailers about how THEY see the retail industry?
Wanna ask some big box retailers how they see the retail industry?

So, yes, if what you are saying is that everything is OK because a vibrant market structure becomes an oligopolistic and moribund structure then fine, we would be in perfect agreement; but as I said, before you say that all is ok, just go ask the 'mom and pop' businesses what they think. ;)

There is much that NEEDS to change in this business but to suggest that everything is OK and situation normal is just nuts.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 11, 2011, 05:14:41 AM
Andrew: As you seem to have plenty of free time available to belittle other contributors to this thread then perhaps you could allocate me a few moments to debate with me the points I raised, and answer a few of my questions. Thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 11, 2011, 05:23:05 AM
Vinny, I don't have lots of free time, and I did.

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 11, 2011, 05:49:49 AM
Vinny, I don't have lots of free time, and I did.

Have a nice day.

Actually Andrew you didn't, your answers are conspicuous by their absence. I also note that you have also avoided every alternative observation I have made to your detailed and in depth report, very interesting.  ;)

With what you have recently written then one could be forgiven for thinking that this thread is no more than a device for creating back links and, despite what you and Manny have indicated, the matter of actual discussion is largely irrelevant. It might explain why whilst your report has gone mega viral then hardly anyone from all aspects of the industry and their clients have felt bothered to reply. ;)

Have a very profitable day. ;)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 11, 2011, 08:08:07 AM

The industry is changing, but it's not in difficulty.  That's like claiming the retail industry is in difficulty because Wal-Mart moved into town and the mom & pop hardware store closed.

-david

Hmm... wanna ask some smaller retailers about how THEY see the retail industry?
Wanna ask some big box retailers how they see the retail industry?

So, yes, if what you are saying is that everything is OK because a vibrant market structure becomes an oligopolistic and moribund structure then fine, we would be in perfect agreement; but as I said, before you say that all is ok, just go ask the 'mom and pop' businesses what they think. ;)

There is much that NEEDS to change in this business but to suggest that everything is OK and situation normal is just nuts.



Nice rebuttal.  not.


You completely ignore the facts that your research is bogus and therefore your so-called conclusions are bogus.


And the assertion of your cohorts that the 3 existing laws are just laying in wait for for prosecutor to bring out whenever is equally bogus. 

The Washington Statute is unconstitutional.  If it's ever invoked, any decent attorney will kill it. 

Personal Jurisdiction has been established by the USSC over and over again.  Just because Washington State is attempting to claim Jurisdiction via third party doesn't mean it will stand.  It's an empty promise and totally worthless as are the other 2 laws.


Any decent "researcher" would have found these facts and would not have continued to use them as you have so obviously misused them.


Whatever your new "grand idea" was,  it's now tainted . . . 



-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Ade on January 11, 2011, 08:39:05 AM
I confess that I don't see how relevant the ownership of this forum is to the work that I have done. Stuart has told you explicitly, and it ain't hard to figure out, that he is an affiliate for AFA (along with Elena's Models and my project!) You will also see ad units that are carrying ads provided by Google's Adsense programme.

Of course there's always relevance when there's a possibility of vested interest. Why on earth should I have to point that out? Really Andrew, you and Manny have been, or at least appear to have been, more than a little disingenuous when it comes to your report and to its/your links with certain IMBs.
 
Why on earth should you think that you deserve or have a right to know the inner workings of Manny's business.

Please show me where I ever said that I deserve anything. Go on, you know you want to. Oh and please, while you are at it, stop putting words into my mouth. Okay?

Having said that, without transparency, conspiracies tend to propagate. Of course, perhaps there are reasons not to be transparent; perhaps a lot of people would be hard pressed to trust anyone linked to AFA-type businesses just because of the scam/rip-off associations. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 11, 2011, 08:46:44 AM
BTW everybody reading this! ~ After just a few days, the term "death of a Russian bride" now has some 28,000 references in Google's index, it was almost zero before the launch of the report.
The viral element of the promotion has kicked in with over 30% of signups to download the report resulting from referrals from people who had themselves downloaded the report.
Best of all, for all the whining from those who think that email is just such a dreadful thing to receive, the opt in rate from the page at www.andrewwilsonnews.com is just shy of 92%, so, only 8% of ALL the people visiting that page for the first time do NOT sign up to receive the report. And that, even though I have in several places, including this thread, published a list of links where people can read the document without giving up an email address. ;)


Goes to show you P.T. Barnum was a seer and absolutely correct. :laugh:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 11, 2011, 08:53:42 AM


Hmm... wanna ask some smaller retailers about how THEY see the retail industry?
Wanna ask some big box retailers how they see the retail industry?

So, yes, if what you are saying is that everything is OK because a vibrant market structure becomes an oligopolistic and moribund structure then fine, we would be in perfect agreement; but as I said, before you say that all is ok, just go ask the 'mom and pop' businesses what they think. ;)

There is much that NEEDS to change in this business but to suggest that everything is OK and situation normal is just nuts.

To say the industry is changing--which is, after all, a fact of life--is quite different than claiming it is "dead". However, the facts are far less sensationalistic.

To bemoan the loss of the "ma and pa" type agency is similar to those who bemoan the decline of the family farm, or the use of horse and buggy for that matter.

Things change. Get over it.

Since much has now been posted about the HRB "new concept" including links, it is not giving away anything to observe that this all fits into Andrew's paid-for visit to HRB in Florida--since which his tune regarding their business has certainly changed from critic to consistent defender.

Promoting this report to attract the attention of agencies which are sources of women to list on the "Planet Love" site--with a commission to Andrew if he recruits them--would seem the obvious method to his particular madness. If it's a success, he stands to make a great deal of money.

Where others may fit into this scenario remains to be seen. If successful, this new venture simply brings multi-level marketing to the introduction business, with the major money made by those "in on the ground floor" who are primarily recruiters.

Thus, Andrew, please spare me the crocodile tears about the "retail" introduction business and its demise. That is what you are counting on, after all.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 12, 2011, 09:18:44 AM
David, I think you are over extending again. It is weird. It is like a fixation with you. ;)

Yes, I DID visit HRB. This report is NOTHING to do with HRB.
I am not as easily bought as you might be, I have already noted that I have spent many weeks of vacation time in Florida over the years. A single week where my time was spent meeting and interacting with a business is therefore no kind of a bribe or inducement to do ANYTHING. I am saddened that you are in such a position where your situation might make it seem that others might be so affected.

As I noted, my report is, in part, based upon my visit. I learned a lot while I was there and have already acknowledged this. I am lucky, I have never stopped learning, I am sorry that you are unable to understand or accept that this might be true of people.

If you have read what I wrote you should know that there is much about the current form of the industry that I dislike. Don't forget it was I who coined the term' the Dirty Barrel' the concept behind which is now pretty much a part of canon for clients in this business and for some businesses too!

All markets are analogous to ecosystems. If one removes participants from the ecosystem then it becomes more stressed and changes occur. At a certain point the ecosystem undergoes too much stress, too many participants have been removed and the ecosystem dies.
So, for example, coral reefs around the world are seeing a decrease in diversity and at the extreme the reefs themselves die off. The thing is that there is still life on the reef, often a mossy kind of seaweed.

In the case of the Russian Bride business there will 'always' be life, but the monoculture or oligopoly that will remain is not what we want to see and just as we say the coral reef has died, even though there is still life there, so the industry will die, even if there are still some people marrying foreign women.

By doing something not done before I wanted, and want, to open a discussion wherein we can do something to manage the ecosystem. At the moment there are many people outside the niche who would seek to reduce diversity, increase stress. They KNOW what the outcome of doing so is.
Only by uniting can anything be done to preserve that diversity. I'd love for you, HRB and many other people and businesses to start to speak with one voice in defence of something quite important rather than fighting each other, ignoring the interlopers and presiding over the death of an industry!

Which would you prefer to have happen?
1) Have necessary change managed, or at least influenced, by the current stakeholders.
OR
2) Have enforced change managed by people who are not stakeholders and who are antagonistic toward the current stakeholders?

If you do not want to have a dog in the fight then just stand back and cease to be a stakeholder.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 12, 2011, 09:26:37 AM
I confess that I don't see how relevant the ownership of this forum is to the work that I have done. Stuart has told you explicitly, and it ain't hard to figure out, that he is an affiliate for AFA (along with Elena's Models and my project!) You will also see ad units that are carrying ads provided by Google's Adsense programme.

Of course there's always relevance when there's a possibility of vested interest. Why on earth should I have to point that out? Really Andrew, you and Manny have been, or at least appear to have been, more than a little disingenuous when it comes to your report and to its/your links with certain IMBs.
 
Why on earth should you think that you deserve or have a right to know the inner workings of Manny's business.

Please show me where I ever said that I deserve anything. Go on, you know you want to. Oh and please, while you are at it, stop putting words into my mouth. Okay?

Having said that, without transparency, conspiracies tend to propagate. Of course, perhaps there are reasons not to be transparent; perhaps a lot of people would be hard pressed to trust anyone linked to AFA-type businesses just because of the scam/rip-off associations.

Ade, if you did not think you were entitled to an answer (deserve an answer) then you'd not have asked it, no?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 12, 2011, 09:54:34 AM
Here's an article I read recently. It mainly deals with the Asian niche of the Mail Order Bride industry but makes interesting reading none the less. http://www.aprilwrites.com/articles/community/LoveforSale.pdf

The figures claimed for domestic abuse are interesting and the attitudes of the Tahirih Justice Center as voiced by their spokeswoman are enlightening. How many of YOU guys see yourselves as portrayed here.

When was the last time you guys saw yourselves portrayed in the media in a manner that matched your self perception?
When you think of that contrast perhaps it starts to become apparent why a disjointed and broken voice is not going to succeed against the eloquent and well thought, even if inaccurate, words of those who would seek to regulate your activities.

Remember that just because a law has not been fully implemented yet does not mean it will not be. laws, in general, are enacted to be enforced. Timing is the thing, change is a process, not an event.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 12, 2011, 10:28:20 AM
Andrew,

I merely state some interesting "coincidences." Whether you were "bought" or not remains to be seen--but your dramatic change of heart regarding HRB has been marked by many different people since your return. It may of course be only a coincidence that your expense-paid trip and your change or heart regarding their methods coincided, just as it may be a coincidence that your "report" used to build sufficient search engine status to engage many agency owners just in time for the launch of the MLM method of introductions is about to launch.

For someone who styles himself an Internet marketer and big in the affiliate marketing business, it seems a stretch that it would be such a "coincidence" of course.

As usual, you attempt to deflect such serious concerns by attacking the other person rather than the facts at issue.

As for your opinion on the industry and those who use it to find wives in the FSU, I frankly don't much care. Obviously, you haven't any special expertise in that direction since despite your claims to be interested in that particular outcome it appears you have been singularly unsuccessful to date. I tend to listen much more intently to those who have been successful than to those who sit on the sidelines and snipe.

I have said before--I have no dog in this hunt at all. I make no money from the introduction business and never used an agency personally. I have known plenty of people I respect personally who have done either one or both, though, and unlike you I claim no position of superiority regarding either the sincere ladies who choose to list themselves on agency databases or upon the men who contact them.

As for this discussion--you have danced all around the most substantial questions from the very beginning--ignoring those which undoubtedly seemed too uncomfortable to answer, or trying to deflect the issue by attacking those who dare to ask. Typical activities for you, and unfortunately in this case aided and abetted by the forum management.

I leave it to those interested to determine the sincerity and honesty with which you operate on these topics.

I simply don't believe your "report" was engendered by any sort of altruism on your part. Even as poorly researched as it is, it still took time and effort on your part to create and distribute--and, frankly, I would be quite startled if you have it in you to do such a thing without the prospect of a major reward.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: WestCoast on January 12, 2011, 11:10:59 AM
Andrew I was just checking to see if your spelling error on your research report is still there and guess what it still is.  The HTML version of your report has a spelling error at the top of http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-8, fingerprinted is spelled  "finger printed".  Your report has been available in this form for at least a week with the spelling error for all to see, obviously you are placing little value in your work. 

The new article you posted http://www.aprilwrites.com/articles/community/LoveforSale.pdf it states "Mail-order brides are three times more likely to suffer abuse than in the general
population".  Your report says that these same women suffer abuse at "1% of women" in international marriages in the US.  Big difference in stats. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 12, 2011, 12:06:55 PM
Big difference in stats.

Yeah, seems him and this management likes to embellish quite a bit . . .




-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 12, 2011, 12:42:25 PM
Andrew I was just checking to see if your spelling error on your research report is still there and guess what it still is.  The HTML version of your report has a spelling error at the top of http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-8, fingerprinted is spelled  "finger printed".  Your report has been available in this form for at least a week with the spelling error for all to see, obviously you are placing little value in your work. 

The new article you posted http://www.aprilwrites.com/articles/community/LoveforSale.pdf it states "Mail-order brides are three times more likely to suffer abuse than in the general
population".  Your report says that these same women suffer abuse at "1% of women" in international marriages in the US.  Big difference in stats.

Of course those afflicted with the 'buzz' will also have noted almost none of the aforementioned authors in this thread (even of the advertorial brand) seem to able to address the statistics of DV in the native population and it's precedence vs the incidence of the same DV found in international marriages.

Numbers that are telling to say the least, even internationally.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 13, 2011, 06:31:51 AM
Quote
Even as poorly researched as it is, it still took time and effort on your part to create and distribute

What time and effort?  He took someone else's report and webpage and used the design, style, headings and even a lot of the text to create what is obviously his magnum opus.  A magnum opus which is in fact only online regurgitation. 

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 13, 2011, 06:39:04 AM
The domestic violence stuff was about the hardest thing to look at because it is the area that, in my opinion, has been the most 'modulated' to suit the story told by opponents of the mail order bride industry.
What I did was go as far back as I could up the data trail.

The document that I linked to in the Death of a Russian Bride report is as far back up the trail as I could get and was the most authoritative. Here is the section of the report that links out to the document: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-4

There is considerable variance in the numbers quoted from one source and another. In the document I referenced, a report to congress the authors note that because of the tiny number of women involved in the MOB route to the US from the FSU that a statistically valid sample is very hard to find. The authors use estimates for much of the work but are careful to corroborate, where necessary, with people who might be expected to have some handle on the issues on an empirical basis.

Check from the foot of page 15 of report to see the estimates and their sources/methodology. You can see that the best estimate for self adjustment cases of MOB women who had documented abuse against them was just 1%. Using other methods to track and estimate the level of abuse among claimants for self adjustment similar figures were found, none, as I recall, in excess of 1%.

There does seem to be a difference in rates of abuse where the husband and wife are from the same ethnic group and the woman is not brought to the US as an MOB although it certainly seems to suit the case of those opposed to men being able to marry foreign women to conflate the two groups.

The report to congress contains as an appendix a paper commissioned by the INS which contains a suggestion, without any supporting evidence that abuse among couples where an American man has imported a foreign bride are likely to be higher than for the general population. The paper does suggest a figure of 7% per annum for domestic abuse within the general population of the US.

A direct link to the report to congress about international matchmaking organisations: http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?bc=1016%7C6715%7C16871%7C17119%7C13775

By the way, in respect of fingerprinting: http://www.springerlink.com/content/t238t676049176j1/
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 13, 2011, 06:52:50 AM
Froid, do not be so silly.
You wear clothes, yes?

Did you make them yourself?
No?
What a surprise, what a fraud you are! ;)

This very site, was it crafted from the finest html and php specifically for the purpose, do we hew out each post from raw html before sharing our bons mots with the world?
No? This site uses software written by other people and a template designed by experts for the purpose.
What a surprise, what frauds we are! ;)

No, we use tools that enable us to have the things we want to do. We synergise our efforts to enable us to perform the tasks we need to get done. Nobody, not even you Froid, is expert at everything. The car you drive to work every morning, built with the sweat of your brow and engineering skill, in all element and aspects? Of course not!

I used a software script called 'The List Virus' because it enabled me to do a job that I could not have otherwise done and it does the job very effectively indeed. Over 90% opt-in from the squeeze page is huge!

Did I follow a template in putting together the campaign? Yes of course I did. I would have been stupid to NOT use what had been done very successfully before me.
The concept of structuring an information dissemination campaign as I am doing is nothing new, as a marketer I have been doing similar for 30 odd years. Communicators have been doing the same thing for centuries, if not millennia.

However, as with most successful communications the ideas, words and purpose are original and mine. The skill I have is in taking tools and employing them to good effect.
As I have already stated nobody else has done what I am doing here, before, ever. Perhaps they should have done and hopefully others will follow me and might even do a better job. I hope that they do!

If you have not already done so, then take a shufti at www.andrewwilsonnews.com sign up for yourself and get the reports instantly and notifications when they are updated. See how it works, if you are curious. Learn if you want to. :)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 13, 2011, 08:06:25 AM
At no point have I said I made my clothes, I built my car or that I claim that any message I have written is online because I trained the electrons to do it for me.  Don't be foolish and try to imply I did.

I am just pointing out how much effort and work you have obviously put into your report and it's marketing.  Call it a template, a script, a get rich quick and create lots of links and spin-off income streams tool or whatever you want to call it, but it is still a report that you said...
Quote
I have researched and written a report
.  Now if you had said I have taken an online marketing tool and used it to publish some ideas about IMBRA in order to build a bigger email list of people interested in the subject then I wouldn't bother to mention this. 

I for one believe that good products market themselves so when I see hyperbole and sensationalism my bullshit detector goes off.  If the message needs such crass tools to get attention...I question the message. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 13, 2011, 08:58:22 AM
Eric, without going to check with one of your best loved online resources, or even a book, what do YOU think empirical means?

Froid, then what have you been bashing away at your keyboard for? We use tools to accomplish a result, you were criticizing me for having done so, go read your own words, or maybe ask your wife to help you if it is too difficult for you. You wrote the words, I made the mistake of assuming you knew what they meant when you did so.  ;D
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: froid on January 13, 2011, 09:21:52 AM
Quote
Froid, then what have you been bashing away at your keyboard for? We use tools to accomplish a result, you were criticizing me for having done so, go read your own words, or maybe ask your wife to help you if it is too difficult for you. You wrote the words, I made the mistake of assuming you knew what they meant when you did so.

I wont bother commenting on another of your insults since you are "protected" here by your business dealings with Manny.  I am glad to find out why it is that I always thought this forum was too close to "slimy internet spam marketing".  In the scheme of things the internet has it's own dirty barrel and that is that of internet marketers. 

Since you like to use tools and templates I suppose that THIS brilliant work was also yours? 

http://russianwomenbook.com/ (http://russianwomenbook.com/)

Which would fit right in with your modus operandi.

http://www.milliondollarauthorprogram.com/yourcopy/ (http://www.milliondollarauthorprogram.com/yourcopy/)

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 13, 2011, 09:27:35 AM
Quote
Froid, then what have you been bashing away at your keyboard for? We use tools to accomplish a result, you were criticizing me for having done so, go read your own words, or maybe ask your wife to help you if it is too difficult for you. You wrote the words, I made the mistake of assuming you knew what they meant when you did so.

I wont bother commenting on another of your insults since you are "protected" here by your business dealings with Manny.  I am glad to find out why it is that I always thought this forum was too close to "slimy internet spam marketing".  In the scheme of things the internet has it's own dirty barrel and that is that of internet marketers. 

Since you like to use tools and templates I suppose that THIS brilliant work was also yours? 

http://russianwomenbook.com/ (http://russianwomenbook.com/)

Which would fit right in with your modus operandi.

http://www.milliondollarauthorprogram.com/yourcopy/ (http://www.milliondollarauthorprogram.com/yourcopy/)

You proved Andrews point rather well Froid. Webmasters use templates. Both pages you linked to successfully sell a product. The templates are tools. To focus on the template is to miss the point.

If you employ a workman, do you inspect the brand of hammer he uses? If a guy sells you insurance, do you insist he has a Chanel briefcase and a gold pen?

Might we remain on topic please chaps?

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Rasputin on January 13, 2011, 10:22:44 AM
If you employ a workman, do you inspect the brand of hammer he uses?

If he shows up to work and only has a hammer in his toolbox, I would question his proficiency no matter the brand of the hammer  tiphat
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 13, 2011, 10:57:56 AM
Eric, without going to check with one of your best loved online resources, or even a book, what do YOU think empirical means?

Froid, then what have you been bashing away at your keyboard for? We use tools to accomplish a result, you were criticizing me for having done so, go read your own words, or maybe ask your wife to help you if it is too difficult for you. You wrote the words, I made the mistake of assuming you knew what they meant when you did so.  ;D

Empircal is the word most educated people would use to describe the overwhelming majority of the content of your advertorial. As mentioned in my follow up post it is also easily found if one expends the effort to look. Primary source evidence based data can be found by expending some more effort and undertaking appropriate research methods to check a variety of sources and collate real objective data to further bolster all the quips and hype you've placed in your advertorial and coming services announcement.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 13, 2011, 01:50:35 PM
Vinny, David, Westy and Moby your messages have been moved  here  (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13363.msg191322.html#msg191322) where I have answered to them.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 13, 2011, 01:56:23 PM
Quote
Even as poorly researched as it is, it still took time and effort on your part to create and distribute

What time and effort?  He took someone else's report and webpage and used the design, style, headings and even a lot of the text to create what is obviously his magnum opus.  A magnum opus which is in fact only online regurgitation.

Did Andrew take someone else's report Froid? Could you link us all to the original that he "took" please?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 13, 2011, 03:11:57 PM
12 posts removed - Obsessive trolling.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Vinnvinny on January 13, 2011, 03:42:08 PM
12 posts removed - Obsessive trolling.

Brass

Don't you mean '12 posts removed - Not conducive to Andrew's marketing campaign'?  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 13, 2011, 03:53:20 PM
12 posts removed - Obsessive trolling.

Brass

Don't you mean '12 posts removed - Not conducive to Andrew's marketing campaign'?  :coffeeread:

No, Vin. I posted exactly what I meant. Please take any further questions regarding moderation  here  (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13363.msg191322.html#msg191322)
as to not muddy the topic, thanks.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Donhollio on January 14, 2011, 09:51:45 AM
12 posts removed - Obsessive trolling.

Brass

   :ROFL: :ROFL:   Ole Danny from another forum must be howlin at the ceiling right about now!  :ROFL: 


  I just wanna ask why Voyager & Shakey are staying out of this thread when they're the moderators...  :duh:

have fun boys  tiphat
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Turboguy on January 14, 2011, 10:51:31 AM
  I just wanna ask why Voyager & Shakey are staying out of this thread when they're the moderators...  :duh:

Some people try to show their intelligence by taking a mensa test.  Maybe others have different ways of showing thier intelligence.

As far as using a template, I am sure when they wanted to start RUA they did not put any thought into coding their own forum software so I don't see that as a big deal.

As far as Andrews REAL intentions, I think they are more then he has admitted but time will tell.  I get enough spam now that a little more is no big deal to me.

As far as Andrews premise that the MOB business will be dead in two years.  I would be happy to bet him $ 100.00 or even $ 1000.00 that there will still be a MOB business two years from now.  Maybe a bit smaller or maybe not.  I would only make that bet if it were a real bet with someone neutral holding the stakes not one like was made about some photos where one party backed out when they lost (and to not take sides, I would be a little skeptical had the bet gone the other way that it would have been any different but that is speculation and very possibly the bet would have been honored.)

Andrews work has certainly stirred up some controversy but personally I disagee with the conclusions and strongly question the motivations.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on January 14, 2011, 12:05:35 PM
I just wanna ask why Voyager & Shakey are staying out of this thread when they're the moderators. 

The other mods seem to be doing a fine job keeping the discussion on point.

I have no dog in this fight either way.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 16, 2011, 08:31:35 PM
ROTFLMAO!!

quote:
"international marriages have doubled in the last decade . . ."
/end quote

Bloomberg Business Weekly

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/


So much for the demise of the business!  A couple of you folks need to get out from in front of the keyboard more often.



-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 16, 2011, 10:44:07 PM
ROTFLMAO!!

quote:
"international marriages have doubled in the last decade . . ."
/end quote

Bloomberg Business Weekly

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/

So much for the demise of the business!  A couple of you folks need to get out from in front of the keyboard more often.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13436.msg192080.html#msg192080

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13322.msg191993.html#msg191993

Brass

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 17, 2011, 10:50:40 AM
In the heydays of international dating, any drooling mutant could meet his smoking-hot fiancee at JFK. (I know; I watched the sad drama play out dozens of times.) Nowadays, one's options have shrunken to a fraction of what they were back then, even if one has every aspect of the process honed to perfection.

Perhaps it's escaped everyone's attention that the current trend is to cater to the sex-chatters who never intend to visit. Ten years ago, nothing but scam agencies would do such a thing. Now, thanks to IMBRA, it has become the usual business model. If this isn't death...



Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 17, 2011, 04:21:46 PM
NONIMMIGRANT ADMISSIONS BY CLASS OF ADMISSION: FISCAL YEARS 2000 TO 2009                              
                              
Class of admission   2000   2001   2002   2003   2004   2005   2006   2007   2008   2009
Total All Admissions 1   NA   NA   NA   180,500,000   180,200,000   175,300,000   175,100,000   171,300,000   175,400,000   162,600,000
Total I-94 Admissions   33,660,320   32,824,088   27,907,139   27,849,443   30,781,330   32,003,435   33,667,328   37,149,651   39,381,928   36,231,554
Non-residents   30,560,136   29,288,030   24,684,292   24,735,380   27,568,652   28,747,652   30,198,154   33,301,754   35,434,175   32,544,098
Temporary visitors for pleasure2   NA   NA   19,720,169   19,981,833   22,653,699   23,701,858   24,788,438   27,486,177   29,442,168   27,800,027
Temporary visitors for pleasure (B2)   NA   NA   8,773,307   8,532,461   9,185,492   9,758,617   11,269,933   13,087,974   13,371,671   12,680,504
Visa Waiver Program – temporary visitors for pleasure (WT)   NA   NA   10,839,036   11,365,723   13,380,069   13,462,507   12,827,677   13,469,851   15,099,059   14,272,553
Guam Visa Waiver Program – temporary visitors for pleasure to Guam (GT)   NA   NA   107,826   83,649   88,138   480,734   690,828   928,352   971,438   846,970
Temporary visitors for business2   NA   NA   4,349,189   4,198,988   4,576,783   4,684,164   5,030,779   5,418,884   5,603,668   4,390,888
Temporary visitors for business (B1)   NA   NA   2,329,708   2,245,350   2,352,404   2,432,587   2,673,309   2,928,875   3,052,581   2,408,092
Visa Waiver Program – temporary visitors for business (WB)   NA   NA   2,018,095   1,952,506   2,223,331   2,249,816   2,355,332   2,486,015   2,546,322   1,977,361
Guam Visa Waiver Program – temporary visitors for business to Guam (GB)   NA   NA   1,386   1,132   1,048   1,761   2,138   3,994   4,765   5,435
Transit aliens   437,671   456,174   614,934   554,559   338,170   361,597   378,749   396,383   387,237   346,695
Aliens in continuous and immediate transit through the United States (C1)   215,084   214,814   221,443   239,681   322,187   343,609   357,682   376,451   365,958   326,704
Aliens in transit to the United Nations (C2)   3,009   2,785   2,346   2,181   2,283   2,379   2,854   2,914   2,646   2,613
Foreign government officials, their spouses, children, and attendants in transit (C3)   10,713   8,960   10,080   10,870   13,700   15,609   18,213   17,018   18,633   17,378
Transit without visa (C4)3   208,865   229,615   381,065   301,827   X   X   X   X   X   X
Commuter students   X   X   X   -   -   33   188   310   1,102   6,488
Canadian or Mexican national academic commuter students (F3)   X   X   X   -   -   33   188   307   1,102   6,488
Canadian or Mexican national vocational commuter students (M3)   X   X   X   -   -   -   -   3   -   -
Short-term Residents   2,716,150   2,912,586   2,779,117   2,707,347   2,802,115   2,906,922   3,170,056   3,566,367   3,688,167   3,438,276
Temporary Workers and Families   1,414,256   1,541,703   1,468,421   1,431,472   1,507,769   1,572,863   1,709,268   1,932,075   1,949,695   1,703,697
Temporary workers and trainees   785,361   855,290   809,494   796,653   831,144   882,957   985,456   1,118,138   1,101,938   936,272
Temporary workers in specialty occupations (H1B)   355,605   384,191   370,490   360,498   386,821   407,418   431,853   461,730   409,619   339,243
Chile and Singapore Free Trade Agreement aliens (H1B1)   X   X   X   X   4   47   129   170   153   213
Registered nurses participating in the Nursing Relief for Disadvantaged Areas (H1C)   -   29   111   48   70   31   24   49   170   231
Seasonal agricultural workers (H2A) 4,5   33,292   27,695   15,628   14,094   22,141   NA   46,432   87,316   173,103   149,763
Seasonal nonagricultural workers (H2B) 4   51,462   72,387   86,987   102,833   86,958   NA   97,279   75,727   104,618   56,381
Returning H2B workers (H2R) 4,6   X   X   X   X   X   NA   36,792   79,168   5,003   162
Trainees (H3)   3,208   3,245   2,695   2,370   2,226   2,938   4,134   5,540   6,156   4,168
Spouses and children of H1, H2, or H3 (H4)   120,212   135,907   129,188   124,487   130,847   130,145   133,437   144,136   122,423   105,429
Workers with extraordinary ability or achievement (O1)   21,746   25,685   25,008   25,541   27,127   29,715   31,969   36,184   41,238   45,600
Workers accompanying and assisting in performance of O1 workers (O2)   3,627   3,834   4,156   5,321   6,332   7,635   9,567   10,349   12,497   12,966
Spouses and children of O1 and O2 (O3)   3,546   4,540   4,023   3,665   3,719   4,154   4,674   5,377   6,386   6,533
Internationally recognized athletes or entertainers (P1)   40,920   42,430   41,453   43,274   40,466   43,766   46,205   53,050   57,030   54,432
Artists or entertainers in reciprocal exchange programs (P2)   4,227   3,877   3,754   3,898   3,810   4,423   4,604   4,835   4,358   4,028
Artists or entertainers in culturally unique programs (P3)   11,230   9,484   9,487   8,869   10,038   10,836   12,630   11,900   12,767   11,441
Spouses and children of P1, P2, or P3 (P4)   1,304   1,575   1,605   1,667   1,853   1,938   2,067   2,223   2,229   2,359
Workers in international cultural exchange programs (Q1)   2,447   2,089   1,755   2,074   2,113   2,575   2,423   2,412   3,231   2,555
Workers in religious occupations (R1)   15,342   17,122   19,115   20,272   21,571   22,362   22,706   25,162   25,106   17,362
Spouses and children of R1 (R2)   3,930   4,404   5,348   6,105   6,443   6,712   7,330   6,881   6,421   4,481
North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) professional workers (TN)   91,082   95,287   73,360   59,201   65,970   64,713   73,880   85,142   88,382   99,018
Spouses and children of TN (TD)   22,181   21,509   15,331   12,436   12,635   14,222   17,321   20,787   21,048   19,907
Intracompany transferees   426,763   473,391   454,145   434,281   456,583   455,350   466,009   531,073   558,485   493,992
Intracompany transferees (L1)   294,658   328,480   313,699   298,054   314,484   312,144   320,829   363,536   382,776   333,386
Spouses and children of L1 (L2)   132,105   144,911   140,446   136,227   142,099   143,206   145,180   167,537   175,709   160,606
Treaty traders and investors   168,214   178,534   171,368   168,508   182,934   192,824   216,842   238,936   243,386   229,301
Treaty traders and their spouses and children (E1)   51,241   51,443   46,440   44,090   47,083   D   50,230   51,722   50,377   49,111
Treaty investors and their spouses and children (E2)   116,973   127,091   124,928   124,418   135,851   143,786   164,795   177,920   180,270   166,983
Australian Free Trade Agreement principals, spouses and children (E3)   X   X   X   X   X   D   1,817   9,294   12,739   13,207
Representatives of foreign information media   33,918   34,488   33,414   32,030   37,108   41,732   40,961   43,928   45,886   44,132
Representatives of foreign information media and spouses and children (I1)   33,918   34,488   33,414   32,030   37,108   41,732   40,961   43,928   45,886   44,132
Students   699,953   741,921   687,506   662,966   656,373   663,919   740,724   841,673   917,373   951,964
Academic students (F1)   648,793   688,970   637,954   617,556   613,221   621,178   693,805   787,756   859,169   895,392
Spouses and children of F1 (F2)   40,179   42,544   40,433   37,112   35,771   33,756   35,987   40,178   42,039   40,956
Vocational students (M1)   10,288   9,625   8,062   7,361   6,989   8,378   10,384   13,073   15,496   14,632
Spouses and children of M1 (M2)   693   782   1,057   937   392   607   548   666   669   984
Exchange visitors   351,743   389,435   370,176   362,782   360,777   382,463   427,067   489,286   506,138   459,408
Exchange visitors (J1)   304,225   339,848   325,580   321,660   321,975   342,742   385,286   443,482   459,126   413,150
Spouses and children of J1 (J2)   47,518   49,587   44,596   41,122   38,802   39,721   41,781   45,804   47,012   46,258
Diplomats and other representatives   249,918   239,227   252,538   249,454   276,817   287,484   292,846   303,290   314,920   323,183
Ambassadors, public ministers, career diplomatic or consular officers and their families (A1)   28,012   26,683   28,489   26,903   28,046   28,488   29,337   30,291   30,882   31,038
Other foreign government officials or employees and their families (A2)   107,751   102,478   110,131   109,699   122,809   126,827   127,296   131,583   136,699   142,315
Attendants, servants, or personal employees of A1 and A2 and their families (A3)   2,467   2,152   2,278   1,894   1,794   1,630   1,496   1,602   1,686   1,766
Principals of recognized foreign governments (G1)   11,708   11,948   12,987   12,231   13,189   13,606   14,523   15,099   15,348   14,876
Other representatives of recognized foreign governments (G2)   14,373   10,947   13,052   9,813   13,685   16,608   15,661   15,160   18,367   17,529
Representatives of nonrecognized or nonmember foreign governments (G3)   415   356   381   392   593   740   811   816   844   912
International organization officers or employees (G4)   69,375   69,215   71,096   74,343   80,515   82,826   85,119   88,374   89,711   92,878
Attendants, servants, or personal employees of representatives (G5)   1,684   1,643   1,496   1,610   1,373   1,336   1,411   1,477   1,399   1,389
North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) officials, spouses, and children (N1 to N7)   14,133   13,805   12,628   12,569   14,813   15,423   17,192   18,888   19,984   20,480
Other classes   280   300   476   673   379   193   151   43   41   24
Expected Long-term Residents   23,718   34,747   92,491   109,157   103,893   84,802   76,783   76,158   59,097   53,019
Legal Immigration Family Equity (LIFE) Act   23,671   34,678   92,435   109,089   103,839   84,754   76,726   76,101   59,035   52,969
Fiancé(e)s of U.S. citizens
(K1)   20,558   23,634   27,340   24,643   28,546   32,900   30,021   32,991   29,916   27,754
Children of K1
(K2)    3,113     3,487      4,257      3,652     4,515     5,127     4,926      5,516     4,947     4,255
Spouses of U.S. citizens, visa pending
(K3)     X            D       4,575       12,774       17,864     16,249     14,739     15,065     12,849     12,937
Children of U.S. citizens, visa pending
(K4)   X   D   1,158   2,960   4,253   4,098   3,692   3,430   2,845   2,578

Spouses of permanent residents, visa pending (V1)   X   2,691   18,169   22,509   17,866   10,157   9,321   6,960   3,609   2,482
Children of permanent residents, visa pending (V2)   X   4,540   19,642   20,496   15,239   7,159   6,070   5,435   2,270   1,424
Dependents of V1 or V2, visa pending (V3)   X   318   17,294   22,055   15,556   9,064   7,957   6,704   2,599   1,539
Other classes   47   69   56   68   54   48   57   57   62   50
Unknown   360,316   588,725   351,239   297,559   306,670   264,059   222,335   205,372   200,489   196,161

This chart is from USCIS statistics and got a bit screwed up in the copy-and-paste process. Nonetheless, it's pretty clear that K visas peaked between 2004 and 2007 but have been dropping off since. Bloomberg's misleading comment is an excellent example of how statistics can be abused by trash journalists.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 17, 2011, 07:36:30 PM
In the heydays of international dating, any drooling mutant could meet his smoking-hot fiancee at JFK. (I know; I watched the sad drama play out dozens of times.) Nowadays, one's options have shrunken to a fraction of what they were back then, even if one has every aspect of the process honed to perfection.

Perhaps it's escaped everyone's attention that the current trend is to cater to the sex-chatters who never intend to visit. Ten years ago, nothing but scam agencies would do such a thing. Now, thanks to IMBRA, it has become the usual business model. If this isn't death...


and IMBRA has killed it, How??



-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 17, 2011, 07:39:46 PM

As far as using a template, I am sure when they wanted to start RUA they did not put any thought into coding their own forum software so I don't see that as a big deal.




Bad example.  A forum and it's underlying software is in no way a comparison to a cut-n-paste report full of bad data, bad taste and bad conclusions.



-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dwfunk on January 17, 2011, 07:45:06 PM

This chart is from USCIS statistics and got a bit screwed up in the copy-and-paste process. Nonetheless, it's pretty clear that K visas peaked between 2004 and 2007 but have been dropping off since. Bloomberg's misleading comment is an excellent example of how statistics can be abused by trash journalists.


And I suppose the economy had absolutely no effect at all . . .   seems to me that industries, including this one that survived the economic crisis appear to be rebounding.  As they say, time will tell.


I won't comment further on your statement about trash journalists abusing statistics . . .     :laugh:    :laugh:


QUACK!


-david
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 17, 2011, 08:39:45 PM
I won't comment further on your statement about trash journalists abusing statistics . . .     :laugh:    :laugh:


QUACK!


-david

Bloomberg's comparing what happened in the first decade of the millenium to the '90's is asinine because the 'MOB' industry was in it's infancy back then.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 17, 2011, 08:56:18 PM
and IMBRA has killed it, How??

Because unpleasant facts are thrust into a girl's face before a man has chance to sell himself.

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 18, 2011, 07:47:34 AM
and IMBRA has killed it, How??

Because unpleasant facts are thrust into a girl's face before a man has chance to sell himself.

I had to read this twice.

Unpleasant facts are thrust?

So, if you have a daughter, would you be okay if she gets engaged to a wife beater?

I'm sorry, my apologies to the guys with a criminal record.

Better?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 08:31:32 AM
When I think of unpleasantries, the following do not come to mind:  homicide, murder, manslaughter, rape, abusive sexual contact, sexual exploitation, incest, torture, trafficking, peonage, holding hostage, involuntary servitude, slave trade, kidnapping, abduction, unlawful criminal restraint, false imprisonment, domestic violence, sexual assault, child abuse and neglect, dating violence, elder abuse, and stalking.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 18, 2011, 09:09:23 AM
So, to which unpleasant facts are you refering?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 09:26:36 AM
Number of marriages, children, years on the planet...

I think that most men typically disclose everything prior to a first meeting but there is a great advantage to choosing the right moment(s) to do so and presenting it correctly. Having everything come out in a form letter, before contact information is exchanged, will end many relationships before they get off the ground. (That was the intent; I will never believe that the sponsors of IMBRA gave a damn about protecting foreign women.)

Just for the sake of argument, let's spin the situation around. Imagine the consequences if women were required to disclose how many abortions that they had, how often that they had been treated for STDs and the number of times that that they had sex with employers or with clients. (These are extreme examples, but I think that you get my point.)



Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 18, 2011, 09:59:13 AM
(These are extreme examples, but I think that you get my point.)

No, not really. Men are not being asked if he had a vasectomy, was treated for herpes, etc.

Both, men and women, are being asked for records, including criminal. The only difference is that men have to provide them upfront and women later on when they apply for a visa. From where I sit, men have more to lose because let's say that they establish a relationship and suddenly he finds out she has a criminal record. All that wasted time.

With men, they'll know that the woman is willing to live with his imprefetions.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 18, 2011, 10:01:49 AM
Isn't it the case in the US that arrests - in addition to convictions - are recorded and divulged?

That means she would see info from people who were not charged, yes? Info about mere allegations.

Do correct me if I am wrong. Its a while since I researched this stuff.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 10:28:31 AM
 http://www.uscis.gov/files/pressrelease/IMBRA072106.pdf

This is a gray area. The above memorandum specifies 'convictions' but goes on to give an example of reporting an arrest, even though there was no conviction.


The following from the Roth Immigration Law Firm website:

"Required Disclosures to the Fiancee
 
International Marriage Broker Defined
The definition of International Marriage Brokers in IMBRA covers virtually all for-profit matchmaking entities, whether U.S. based on not, whose main business is the facilitation of dating or like services between U.S. citizens and foreigners. The definition excludes matchmaking sites whose principal business in not providing dating services between U.S. residents and foreign clients and which charges like fees for its services regardless of the gender or national origin of the client.
 
International Marriage Broker Obligations
Before an IMB can release the personal contact information of a foreign client to a U.S. client, the IMB must:

Search the National Sex Offender Registry to determine the record of the U.S. citizen, and disclose any information found concerning the U.S. citizen to the foreign client
Obtain a signed statement from the U.S. citizen revealing any current or past protection or restraining order, most criminal arrests and convictions, virtually all arrest or convictions for domestic or sexual offenses, multiple convictions for substance and/or alcohol abuse, the U.S. client's marital history (including the reason for termination of any prior marriages), the ages of any of the U.S. citizen's children under the age of 18, and a list of all States and counties that the U.S. citizen has lived in since the client was 18 years of age.
Distribute to the foreign national a pamphlet currently being developed by the U.S. government to educate foreign fiancé(e)s about U.S. domestic abuse laws and resources for immigrant victims in the U.S.; and
Obtain the foreign national's written consent to disclosing her personal contact information."
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on January 18, 2011, 11:13:45 AM
This is a gray area. The above memorandum specifies 'convictions' but goes on to give an example of reporting an arrest, even though there was no conviction. 

I think all arrests for DV must be reported unless the record has been sealed by a judge. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 11:16:31 AM
No, not really. Men are not being asked if he had a vasectomy, was treated for herpes, etc.

Both, men and women, are being asked for records, including criminal. The only difference is that men have to provide them upfront and women later on when they apply for a visa. From where I sit, men have more to lose because let's say that they establish a relationship and suddenly he finds out she has a criminal record. All that wasted time.

With men, they'll know that the woman is willing to live with his imprefetions.

Do I have to define the word, "examples," for you?

I bloody well know that men aren't being asked about altered plumbing, std treatment (or about prostitute usage). I am also aware that women are not being asked questions up front that would definitely be deal-breakers, if the men knew the answers before they had some emotional investment. The men, on the other hand, are forced to provide answers before the girls have any emotional investment, so it's very easy for them to be rejected out of hand.

My comments are not about level playing fields, gender differences, equal rights or specific types of bad news. I am discussing a deliberate, malicious, well-planned and extraordinarily effective conspiracy to violate the civil rights of non-felons who are tired of being alone and to kill the IMB industry. If Cantwell et al could have gotten away with forcing foreign nationals to disclose damning information up front, they would have done so.


p.s.

I'm really not certain whether the IMBs are the target and the lonely hearts are merely collateral damage or if it's the other way around. It doesn't make any difference, the end result is the same.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 18, 2011, 11:54:41 AM

I bloody well know that men aren't being asked about altered plumbing, std treatment (or about prostitute usage).

This makes for some interesting reading:
Quote from: See, 151 Cong. Rec. S13, 752 (daily ed. Dec. 16, 2005) (statement of Sen. Brownback)
(''A simple but incredibly powerful premise drives [the IMBRA] provisions: that this information can help a woman help herself, help her save herself or her child from becoming the next victim of a predatory abuser. Through this information and other safeguards, this important legislation will help prevent those intent on doing women harm from perverting and subverting both the institution of marriage and the immigration process to find new victims overseas.''). Despite these good faith intentions, it is critical to note that IMBRA covers K visa petitions only. Thus, a predatory Petitioner could circumvent IMBRA by traveling overseas to marry the Foreign Beneficiary and subsequently filing an I-130 petition upon return to the United States. Because I-130 petitions are only subject to the requirements imposed by the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act (“AWA”) and are not within the scope of IMBRA, a Petitioner’s criminal background could remain undisclosed so long as it did not trigger AWA.This makes the disclosure requirements of IMBRA arguably toothless.

Some other interesting reading can be found here: Marriage In The New Decade:Marriage Brokers, Disclosure Duties, And Numeric Limitations Imposed By IMBRA
By: Leslie Karam* Esq and Sarah Robison**
* Leslie Karam is an attorney in the immigration law firm of Karam Law, located in Bloomington, MN. She is a member of AILA.
**Sarah Robison is a law student at the University of Minnesota Law School. Sarah is a member of the AILA Law Student Chapter (http://www.ilw.com/articles/2010,0505-karam.pdf)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 12:03:05 PM

This makes for some interesting reading:
Quote from: See, 151 Cong. Rec. S13, 752 (daily ed. Dec. 16, 2005) (statement of Sen. Brownback)
(''A simple but incredibly powerful premise drives [the IMBRA] provisions: that this information can help a woman help herself, help her save herself or her child from becoming the next victim of a predatory abuser. Through this information and other safeguards, this important legislation will help prevent those intent on doing women harm from perverting and subverting both the institution of marriage and the immigration process to find new victims overseas.''). Despite these good faith intentions, it is critical to note that IMBRA covers K visa petitions only. Thus, a predatory Petitioner could circumvent IMBRA by traveling overseas to marry the Foreign Beneficiary and subsequently filing an I-130 petition upon return to the United States. Because I-130 petitions are only subject to the requirements imposed by the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act (“AWA”) and are not within the scope of IMBRA, a Petitioner’s criminal background could remain undisclosed so long as it did not trigger AWA.This makes the disclosure requirements of IMBRA arguably toothless.

The quote above erroneously referred to K visa petitions when they should have been referring to K-1 visa petitions.
Nonetheless, suggesting that petitioners (predatory or otherwise) might rush into marriage to avoid IMBRA simply trades one problem for another. The underlying implication, however, is that one might deliberately falsify the answers on an IMBRA questionnaire and evade consequences by a foreign marriage (until that loophole is closed).
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 18, 2011, 12:10:57 PM
"Tom,"

We agree but in order to keep the quote whole and accurate that was what is in the public record from the good senator. Also here is an older GAO report with some interesting numbers. The report can be found here: Immigration Benefits: Circumstances under Which Petitioners' Sex Offenses May Be Disclosed to Beneficiaries GAO-06-735 June 14, 2006 (http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-06-735)

Quote
At least 398 convicted sex offenders filed a total of 420 petitions in fiscal year 2005 for spouses, fiances, children, and other relatives.

Quote
The sex offenders were convicted of at least 411 sex-related crimes, including sexual assault and rape, according to data in the Federal Bureau of Investigation's National Sex Offender Registry. At least 45 convictions involved crimes against children. While most beneficiaries were spouses and fiances, criminal sex offenders petitioned for at least 60 children.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 18, 2011, 12:15:50 PM
Also inregards to the prostitution remark that is covered.
Quote
Under IMBRA, effective March 7. 2006,.....  is mandated to collect from all US Citizens or Residents the following background information, and also conduct an electronic search on the National Sex Offender public registry and state public registry (http://www.nsopr.gov). This information and search result after translation to the Foreign individuals primary language will be made available to any Foreign individual interested in communicating with the US Citizen or Resident.


1.      Background information, signed and certified by the client, describing and attesting to the following personal information:

a.       Any temporary or permanent civil protection order or restraining order issued against the client.

b.      Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the United States client for homicide, murder, man­slaughter, assault, battery, domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, abusive sexual contact, sexual exploi­tation, incest, child abuse or neglect, torture, traf­ficking, peonage, holding hostage, involuntary ser­vitude, slave trade, kidnapping, abduction, unlawful criminal restraint, false imprisonment, or stalking.

c.       Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the client for—

         i.      solely, principally, or incidentally engaging in prostitution;

        ii.      a direct or indirect attempt to procure prostitutes or persons for the purpose of prostitu­tion; or

       iii.      receiving, in whole or in part, of the proceeds of prostitution.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 12:25:00 PM
411 sex-related crimes amongst 730,000 petitioners is significantly lower than the national average. I think that the senator is looking for forced love in all of the wrong places.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 18, 2011, 12:27:08 PM
Tom, my intuition is that for some people this is a career thing, or a business.

In a normal business many people tend to seek to build fiefdoms, they want to co-opt power to themselves and their 'team'.
I think that we are seeing this here.
There are people who have genuine cause.
There are people who have genuine suffering.
There are people who make a living from exploiting the former two groups.
We actually need some of the people in the third group. We can not expect everybody to do everything from altruism, it makes no sense, is not realistic.
But, when 'volunteer' groups, or 'action groups' have a financial or power based reason to expand their fiefdoms then things can go wrong.

This is why, in my opinion, those who in this thread and elsewhere have noted that certain legislation is not being implemented miss the point.
When language is altered such that we take certain implications from the new, amended meanings of words; when associations of words and ideas are recast in new and extended or emotionally altered ways then we are not looking at a short term plan but at a long term movement toward a goal.

This is why I referred to 'criminals' in my documents.
There is a definite effort, by a very few people, to alter the perceptions of the general population in respect of the activities of a few.
Are IMB's the target?
Are lonely hearts the target?

To be honest, I think that IMBs are A target but that the real targets are much larger. This is about control and power.
Along the way will be battles, skirmishes, guerrilla actions but what is going on is a war. A war with shifting alliances and, I do not know the goals or purposes.
Is this a gender thing?
Is this a government expansion thing?
I really do not know but it can be seen that there are several interest groups who can identify benefit from making men less powerful in many aspects of life. IMHO this is about more than equality for some people.

I truly do think that men need to find a common voice and we do need to find a common voice in the issues in which have commonalities before we find the larger, louder stronger voice that women have been building for a century.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 12:27:22 PM
Also inregards to the prostitution remark that is covered.
Quote
Under IMBRA, effective March 7. 2006,.....  is mandated to collect from all US Citizens or Residents the following background information, and also conduct an electronic search on the National Sex Offender public registry and state public registry (http://www.nsopr.gov). This information and search result after translation to the Foreign individuals primary language will be made available to any Foreign individual interested in communicating with the US Citizen or Resident.


1.      Background information, signed and certified by the client, describing and attesting to the following personal information:

a.       Any temporary or permanent civil protection order or restraining order issued against the client.

b.      Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the United States client for homicide, murder, man­slaughter, assault, battery, domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, abusive sexual contact, sexual exploi­tation, incest, child abuse or neglect, torture, traf­ficking, peonage, holding hostage, involuntary ser­vitude, slave trade, kidnapping, abduction, unlawful criminal restraint, false imprisonment, or stalking.

c.       Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the client for—

         i.      solely, principally, or incidentally engaging in prostitution;

        ii.      a direct or indirect attempt to procure prostitutes or persons for the purpose of prostitu­tion; or

       iii.      receiving, in whole or in part, of the proceeds of prostitution.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 18, 2011, 12:28:46 PM
411 sex-related crimes amongst 730,000 petitioners is significantly lower than the national average. I think that the senator is looking for forced love in all of the wrong places.

I doubt that anybody boxing out of the red corner will be bothering to make that comparison.
Who will stand to make the comparison?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 18, 2011, 12:32:01 PM
411 sex-related crimes amongst 730,000 petitioners is significantly lower than the national average. I think that the senator is looking for forced love in all of the wrong places.

Tom we would agree about the statistical incidence in the 2 populations. Unfortunately those numbers were only for 2005 and didn't cover other years. Thus we would need to compare 2005 petition numbers and incidence as per the above vs general incidence in the 'regular' population. It would change the results slightly. :reading:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 18, 2011, 12:45:42 PM
I have a question:

1) From reading the links supplied in the last few posts; Are these forms/information/disclosures initially given to the potential bride/groom/boyfriend/girlfriend supplied in hardcopy? and if so

2) How long before these individual disclosures/forms/info end up on the internet due to bad breakups/unacceptable background/CRC results, etc. by 'dissed/upset ex's/girlfriends/boyfriends and the like?

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 12:54:35 PM
Since more than half of forcible rapes are perpetrated against minors, the IMBRA folks could get more (less) bang for their buck by eliminating K-2 and K-4 visas. As a perk, most of the moms would stay in their native countries because they are unwilling to abandon their kids. (That would reduce the number of potential rape victims even more.)

That would force the predatory SRMs to seek out domestic females (mostly) to satisfy their perverted desires. Given that more than two-thirds of the likely victims are overweight, obese and flat-out disgusting, I would expect significant performance issues that would have a greater protective effect than any form of legislation or punishment. Perhaps incentives should be given to encourage sexual unattractiveness. (Free donuts at the minimum.)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 12:56:20 PM
I have a question:

1) From reading the links supplied in the last few posts; Are these forms/information/disclosures initially given to the potential bride/groom/boyfriend/girlfriend supplied in hardcopy? and if so    Yes, they are.

2) How long before these individual disclosures/forms/info end up on the internet due to bad breakups/unacceptable background/CRC results, etc. by 'dissed/upset ex's/girlfriends/boyfriends and the like?

If they haven't appeared yet, it was probably just an oversight.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 01:02:19 PM
Andrew,

Anything that I write includes the presumption of runaway Fascism. I don't want to sound like a broken record by mentioning it in every post.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 18, 2011, 01:07:14 PM
Andrew,

Anything that I write includes the presumption of runaway Fascism. I don't want to sound like a broken record by mentioning it in every post.

Hey Tom, I did not have you figured for a Black Helicopter spotter. ;)
I doubt that everybody has the same degree of perspicacity as yourself though.

The point that strikes me though is this:
If what is going on is part of an ongoing war then what is the point in trying to argue details about different bits of legislation.
All that is happening by doing so is fighting yesterday's battles. These people care not one whit what anybody here might say or think of the legislation. The game is to find another way to fight back.
Think Redcoats vs ragtag colonials or US army against Iraqi freedom fighters.
There is no point on fighting using the enemy's rules, that's what they want you to do - ALWAYS!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 18, 2011, 01:18:30 PM
I have a question:

1) From reading the links supplied in the last few posts; Are these forms/information/disclosures initially given to the potential bride/groom/boyfriend/girlfriend supplied in hardcopy? and if so    Yes, they are.

2) How long before these individual disclosures/forms/info end up on the internet due to bad breakups/unacceptable background/CRC results, etc. by 'dissed/upset ex's/girlfriends/boyfriends and the like?

If they haven't appeared yet, it was probably just an oversight.

Brass

So, to extrapolate for a moment. If even a percentage of US clients (regardless if he/she has a clean Rap Sheet or not) decides the risk of possibly having his/her personal info (full name, DOB, residential address, etc. presumably) up in cyber lights for all to see and opts out of the idea of pursuing a foreign relationship - would this not impact the agencies/brokers in the pocket book? (rhetorical)

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Muzh_1 on January 18, 2011, 01:22:02 PM
Since more than half of forcible rapes are perpetrated against minors, the IMBRA folks could get more (less) bang for their buck by eliminating K-2 and K-4 visas. As a perk, most of the moms would stay in their native countries because they are unwilling to abandon their kids. (That would reduce the number of potential rape victims even more.)

That would force the predatory SRMs to seek out domestic females (mostly) to satisfy their perverted desires. Given that more than two-thirds of the likely victims are overweight, obese and flat-out disgusting, I would expect significant performance issues that would have a greater protective effect than any form of legislation or punishment. Perhaps incentives should be given to encourage sexual unattractiveness. (Free donuts at the minimum.)

You know, this do explain a lot about your arguments.

I'm done here.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 01:29:57 PM
You know, this do explain a lot about your arguments.

I'm done here.

I was mocking the rationale of the IMBRA sponsors, not you.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 01:31:59 PM
So, to extrapolate for a moment. If even a percentage of US clients (regardless if he/she has a clean Rap Sheet or not) decides the risk of possibly having his/her personal info (full name, DOB, residential address, etc. presumably) up in cyber lights for all to see and opts out of the idea of pursuing a foreign relationship - would this not impact the agencies/brokers in the pocket book? (rhetorical)

Brass

That covers the situation pretty well.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 01:43:24 PM
Hey Tom, I did not have you figured for a Black Helicopter spotter. ;)
I doubt that everybody has the same degree of perspicacity as yourself though.

The point that strikes me though is this:
If what is going on is part of an ongoing war then what is the point in trying to argue details about different bits of legislation.
All that is happening by doing so is fighting yesterday's battles. These people care not one whit what anybody here might say or think of the legislation. The game is to find another way to fight back.
Think Redcoats vs ragtag colonials or US army against Iraqi freedom fighters.
There is no point on fighting using the enemy's rules, that's what they want you to do - ALWAYS!

That is precisely why insurgencies are so tenacious: they have the ability to change their strategies at the drop of the hat, leaving the superior force to whine about their "not playing by the rules."
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 18, 2011, 01:55:43 PM
True.
Guess who are the insurgents here?

Clue, very few of them wear a bra!
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 18, 2011, 02:56:02 PM
It's difficult to pull it off on a large scale, though. As soon as you get sufficiently organized to present a good target, you have to pick up and move on. I beat IMBRA and others have done so as well but there aren't enough of us to be of statistical significance and there aren't enough targets of opportunity to go around in any case.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 18, 2011, 03:22:02 PM
Tom, you are right but if we posit that this is not just about a few blokes marrying Russian bints and if we consider that the job of importing a Russian bride - end to end - is now much harder than it used to be then I think we can probably agree that unless one takes the entirely self centered view that 'I did and that's all that matters' then we SHOULD be concerned about the longer term issues and to a greater degree than re fighting past defeats.

How to manage IMBRA2, IMBRA3, criminalization of online international relationships etc etc?

Should we bother?
Is it worth bothering?
Is it worth looking for ways to ameliorate the issues we can see?

One problem that I can see is that most participants, as clients, have a very short term view. As I already noted, for the people who would reduce your rights as a person and citizen this is a career spanning issue of maybe 40 or more years. The payoff for steps now being taken may well be in a decade or more from now, just as the payoff for IMBRA is only just starting to take effect.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 18, 2011, 04:23:03 PM


As far as Andrews premise that the MOB business will be dead in two years.  I would be happy to bet him $ 100.00 or even $ 1000.00 that there will still be a MOB business two years from now.  Maybe a bit smaller or maybe not.  I would only make that bet if it were a real bet with someone neutral holding the stakes not one like was made about some photos where one party backed out when they lost (and to not take sides, I would be a little skeptical had the bet gone the other way that it would have been any different but that is speculation and very possibly the bet would have been honored.)


Turbo, my apologies for not noticing this gem posted a couple of days ago!
I have never been so daft as to venture into a betting shop so I ain't going to be so simple as to have a wager with a person living on a different continent about such a silly thing. I always tended to think that betting, like lotteries, is a tax upon those dumb enough to gamble on the unknown.

Discuss stuff, yes, debate, argue and think. Betting as a replacement for discussion, nope, not my gig at all I'm afraid.



Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 20, 2011, 03:23:34 PM
I've posted in the past on one or two topics that the 'industry' has come up against a glass ceiling. As the laws/regulations tighten up worldwide, the agencies will either have to change how they do their business, bend the rules (possibly leaving their clients legally exposed if discovered) or be squeezed out (no longer viable).

I've recently observed that this (my) statement was lifted and used over at another forum for a somewhat simplified and not very well thought out response by a Tour Operator trying to defend his business model.

Our intrepid tour operator wrote:

That I must be ill-informed or do not have an understanding of things. Further contributing...

 IMBRA is really a very simple thing. The man fills out the IMBRA form. I do a check with the National Sex Registry. I sign off on the IMBRA form and give one copy to this agency, another copy to this agency and that agency. Now, of the women that Mr. Client would like to meet with each of these agencies, and the ladies who would like to meet Mr. Client, they simply come to the agency offices and sign the form. Thats it!!!  No meeting of women unless she signs the IMBRA form. We're all legal and IMBRA conforming. Once IMBRA laws begin to be enforced with the ladies attending the ballroom or facility where we are holding the party will be  10, or 11 or 12 IMBRA on a desk just before they enter the party. Each women has to sign each of the IMBRA forms. Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA complient for our tour parties...

...or words to that effect.

Now, never having attended a social tour but read a few posts over the years (perused a few pics, etc.) by this SP and other members regarding his tours - My understanding of the concept is a group of men travel to various cities in the FSU, with the tour operator attending socials frequented by multiple ladies whom either arrive 'blind' (no prior invite by a tour participant) to the social or having made prior arrangements to attend the social to specifically be introduced to one of the tour participants (whom presumably they have had prior contact with in some form or another), for the purpose of meeting a future mate/bride.

So maybe someone can enlighten me here...

For the purposes of my questions; Let's assume 10 western male participants - again, having read and looked - would 30 female guests/attendees per function be a stretch for each social in, let's say 3 cities? So, 3 socials, three cities, 90 female guests for the complete tour. Now, let's assume 30 (or more if you wish)of these are pre invites at the men's request and have already done the IMBRA process as alluded to by the SP above:

...Now, of the women that Mr. Client would like to meet with each of these agencies, and the ladies who would like to meet Mr. Client, they simply come to the agency offices and sign the form. Thats it!!!  No meeting of women unless she signs the IMBRA form. We're all legal and IMBRA conforming...

Which would leave (up to) 60 ladies signing they are in receipt of the IMBRA forms at the door presumably, as our SP again has alluded to:

...Once IMBRA laws begin to be enforced with the ladies attending the ballroom or facility where we are holding the party will be  10, or 11 or 12 IMBRA forms on a desk just before they enter the party. Each women has to sign each of the IMBRA forms. Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA complient for our tour parties...

So, ...Once IMBRA laws begin to be enforced with the ladies attending the ballroom or facility where we are holding the party will be 10, 11 or 12 IMBRA forms...

Denotes future tense (at least to me) and infact is a change in how (at least) this SP will do business in the future.

Moving on...Our SP further alludes to being 100% IMBRA compliant...

...Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA complient for our tour parties...

I don't quite see how this is so in that  IMBRA states that you need to provide a *copy* of records of any information retrieved from your IMBRA search or documentation showing the search produced no results in her primary language, yes?
 
So, you now have 10 separate sheets of compiled confidential docs being disseminated to (up to) 60 ladies for the entire tour. Women you might have contact with for all of 30 seconds or less, if neither is interested in each other...However, she now has your confidential/personal information in her hands.

Not exactly just a signature before they join the party as our SP has stated:...

...Once IMBRA laws begin to be enforced with the ladies attending the ballroom or facility where we are holding the party will be  10, or 11 or 12 IMBRA on a desk just before they enter the party...

Or maybe he will circumvent IMBRA Regs by simply making sure he is in receipt of the lady's signature to cover himself and not provide the foreign national with a copy? Lends itself to my 'Agencies bending the rules but might leave the client legally exposed' statement, don't you think?

Finally, assuming our SP is totally compliant, who pays for the translation, hardcopy, extra admin, records keeping etc.? I bet it won't be the SP, which means the cost will be passed on to the client, maybe putting the cost of actually going on a tour out of reach for some men. Clientele drops, overhead for the Agency/Broker/SP rises and Oops,..."squeezed out (no longer viable)."

OK, now can someone explain where I might be ill-informed or suffer from a lack of understanding, thanks. :)

As an aside...for the gentlemen who've participated; Is it conceivable there is now potentially dozens of women out there, you may have no intention of ever meeting again, whom you may have had a few moments passing conversation with, in possession of your personal info? And when these girls are on their way home after a meal and some drinks, where's the paperwork - in the trash, left somewhere, collected by a bad guy...on the internet?

Brass





 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Turboguy on January 20, 2011, 03:28:56 PM
The big agencies used to advertise 200-300 women or something in that range.  I would say that 150 would have been more accurate.  The last of the three parties was the worst attended and some women come three times but some are new each time.

At Jacks, I would say 30-50 women would have been about average.  I would think that having some meaningful IMBRA disclosure at one of these sessions would have been hard.  My guess is that they would have them there for the ladies to look at and then have them sign off that they saw them but I have not done any since IMBRA was as enforced (not that it is all that enforced now)
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 20, 2011, 04:03:15 PM
It doesn't sound like compliance to me.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 20, 2011, 04:17:42 PM
*Hypothetically Speaking*

More than likely the SP would not show the ladies anything about anyone and would run the tour, or various introductions, etc... Then when the lust mates decided they are in love and going to do a visa or get married the IMBRA info would get trotted out the forms signed. everyone would agree to say they had seen the info and signed the forms much earlier and then off to the embassy everyone would go figuring this would all just work out hunky dory and that they had complied.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 20, 2011, 06:21:47 PM
*Hypothetically Speaking*

More than likely the SP would not show the ladies anything about anyone and would run the tour, or various introductions, etc... Then when the lust mates decided they are in love and going to do a visa or get married the IMBRA info would get trotted out the forms signed. everyone would agree to say they had seen the info and signed the forms much earlier and then off to the embassy everyone would go figuring this would all just work out hunky dory and that they had complied.

Boils down to bending the rules again...I don't know about you guys but up here but our government takes a dim view of falsifying government/immigration docs and conspiracy involving same.

Brass

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 20, 2011, 06:39:50 PM
Same here but we're not exactly talking about a general population (SP's) concerned with things like morals, or law, or things like that. Most often <with some exceptions> their goal is to make as much money as possible from all parties involved and when that part is done their concern ends.

The ladies may or may not be moral people and more than likely have some exposure and or experience 'bending' the truth when it comes to things they tell the gvt. or it's minions. The guys... same deal. :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 20, 2011, 07:13:26 PM
Same here but we're not exactly talking about a general population (SP's) concerned with things like morals, or law, or things like that. Most often <with some exceptions> their goal is to make as much money as possible from all parties involved and when that part is done their concern ends.

The ladies may or may not be moral people and more than likely have some exposure and or experience 'bending' the truth when it comes to things they tell the gvt. or it's minions. The guys... same deal. :popcorn:

Well ( I suppose) if caught out, from the Government's point of view, any false attestments/statements/ docs smacks of 'marriage of convenience' (true or not) and an SP facilitating same by back dating IMBRA paperwork could find themselves in a heapload of trouble. Possibly even excluded from access to the government apparatus that supplies the IMBRA info which, as far as their US client base is concerned, soon will be an integral part of the process.

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 20, 2011, 07:34:10 PM
The NSOR (http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1) is a free to use publicly accessible database and as such any SP or person can access it freely and somewhat anonymously. That's the big gvt. part of their (SP's) involvement. The other one is ensuring the info the USC sends is seen and understood by the female/male/whatever. The accuracy of which is (other than the NSOR search) dependent on the USC client. The minuscule remainder of responsibility is with the female/male/whatever who merely signs they saw it and is aware of the info they read.

Thus the majority of the 'onus' is on the USC and a miniscule amount on the female/male/whatever and SP.
 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 20, 2011, 07:56:41 PM
The NSOR (http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1) is a free to use publicly accessible database and as such any SP or person can access it freely and somewhat anonymously. That's the big gvt. part of their (SP's) involvement. The other one is ensuring the info the USC sends is seen and understood by the female/male/whatever. The accuracy of which is (other than the NSOR search) dependent on the USC client. The minuscule remainder of responsibility is with the female/male/whatever who merely signs they saw it and is aware of the info they read.

Thus the majority of the 'onus' is on the USC and a miniscule amount on the female/male/whatever and SP.

Which is all well and good but little to do with my original post or my last post...but thanks for the link (although I'm pretty sure it's been posted a couple of times already). :chuckle:

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 21, 2011, 05:47:47 AM
Which is all well and good but little to do with my original post or my last post...but thanks for the link (although I'm pretty sure it's been posted a couple of times already). :chuckle:

Brass

It has plenty to do with it. Take a few moments and think about it.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 21, 2011, 07:57:11 AM
*Hypothetically Speaking*

More than likely the SP would not show the ladies anything about anyone and would run the tour, or various introductions, etc... Then when the lust mates decided they are in love and going to do a visa or get married the IMBRA info would get trotted out the forms signed. everyone would agree to say they had seen the info and signed the forms much earlier and then off to the embassy everyone would go figuring this would all just work out hunky dory and that they had complied.

Boils down to bending the rules again...I don't know about you guys but up here but our government takes a dim view of falsifying government/immigration docs and conspiracy involving same.

Brass

Not only 'our government' takes a dim view.
I tend to look at things this way:
If a business I am thinking of working with indicates a willingness to lie, be dishonest and consciously circumvent legislation and regulations then I am going to have little faith that I can rely upon them to do as they might claim to do for me.

Given the lack of trust already prevalent in this business what client, apart from Mr Toodimtobreatheandwalk is going to go along with such a suggestion as that made by Eric.
I am certain that some businesses will do exactly as Eric is suggesting though and they will end up not performing as promised and/or closing down.

So, even if I disagree with the legislation or regulation being circumvented I will take a dim view of its circumvention.

In the longer term, those firms that build their business on the basis of dishonest dealing are going to become larger and larger targets for regulators and bureaucrats.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 21, 2011, 08:41:39 AM


In the longer term, those firms that build their business on the basis of dishonest dealing are going to become larger and larger targets for regulators and bureaucrats.

Why does this sound like such a good description of your friends at HRB?  :laugh:

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 21, 2011, 11:16:00 AM
HRB can't be faulted for their implementation of IMBRA, though.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: nunya on January 21, 2011, 02:13:19 PM

So maybe someone can enlighten me here...



Ok Brass, I'll bite, however as I was/am very reluctant to post anything in this topic based on your recent moderation practices I will say if you remove or delete anything you will have to see the remainder of my replies with this thread on another forum.  I'm sure your going to say something along the lines you will delete/remove anything you feel is off topic but as I have seen, as has many others, with your piteous excuse of removing post's 'you' consider off topic, I will stand by what I have stated.




I've recently observed that this (my) statement was lifted and used over at another forum for a somewhat simplified and not very well thought out response by a Tour Operator trying to defend his business model.


Brass, at no time was I, or have I, felt a need to defend my business model. Your statement that I am trying to defend my business model is not correct. 


Our intrepid tour operator wrote:

That I must be ill-informed or do not have an understanding of things.


Well,  let's see, ok?




My understanding of the concept is a group of men travel to various cities in the FSU, with the tour operator attending socials


Please Brass, we do not offer socials. Please do not get me or my agency confused with the companies who provide socials. We have parties. This is nothing new Brass, I have stated this for well over 10 years that we do not provide socials, we offer parties, I did not want our company to be associated with socials. When I first started this business their were many differences in the way we did things compared to the social providers, so many differences it was quite obvious.

For an agency who has stated many times over the last decade that they did not provide socials, for an agency who has written on their website over the last decade, it's written there today, was written there in 2000, that we do not provide socials, we do parties, you have either been ill-informed or do not have a good understanding as to our agency to be making such a statement.


ladies whom either arrive 'blind' (no prior invite by a tour participant) to the social

Ladies who attend our parties have been invited, we have no "blind" attendees.




introduced to one of the tour participants (whom presumably they have had prior contact with in some form or another),


Brass, not 100% correct, maybe 40% correct. 

First you need to understand about 50% of the ladies who attend our parties today are associated with various marriage agencies. The men have chosen these ladies as being ladies they would have an interest to meet. The men have had no prior contact, not by phone, not by email, not by letter, no previous contact with these ladies. The men like the way the lady looks, likes what he see's in her profile, he would like to meet her at the party. We advise the agencies and they offer invitations to the party to these ladies.

Now almost all the guys are also dealing with ladies from other agencies as well and are writing ladies from other internet sites including free Russian sites and Russian personal websites, one site with millions of Russian ladies who are members. 

Of this group of ladies, say the ladies from Elena's Models, or A Pretty Woman, or AFA, even Anastasia, the men may have made some type prior contact, but not always. Sometimes the men will just acquire the ladies contact information, like with A Pretty Woman or Bride.ru, and our support staff will contact the ladies, tell them of our party and invite them.   The ladies the men make contact with from the Russian personal sites, all the men have made some contact with, usually by messaging thru the i-net site, or by email, but once the men get the ladies phone numbers then one of our staff ladies will call, get involved and either set a private meeting with the lady or invite her to the party.

If men are even a little successful they are going to have too many ladies to meet for private meetings, thus the parties are a great way for these men to meet several ladies who interest them that they would not probably be able to meet otherwise.

Now, all the ladies who are with marriage agencies will have to comply 100% with IMBRA procedures. Both ladies who the men meet through private meetings as well the parties.  The ladies the men have private meetings with thru the free Russian sites or the Russian personal sites are IMBRA exempt, BUT the ladies from these same exempt sites who attend our parties now qualify for IMBRA as they are attending our sponsored party even though one of the men has already obtained her direct contact information. The reason these ladies now qualify for IMBRA is because they are now meeting many other American men. So although one man has already made a legal, non-binding IMBRA contact with her, the other men are meeting her with the help of an IMB, me, and now these ladies must fall under IMBRA.

To make it simple, effective and legal, ALL ladies attending our parties must sign and date each man's IMBRA signature sheet



Let's assume 10 western male participants - again, having read and looked - would 30 female guests/attendees per function be a stretch for each social in, let's say 3 cities

So, 3 socials, three cities, 90 female guests for the complete tour


If were going to assume Brass let's try to be much closer on the actual figure's, ok?  3 parties, 3 cities, 10 men, 150 female guests.




Now, let's assume 30 (or more if you wish)of these are pre invites at the men's request and have already done the IMBRA process as alluded to by the SP above:

...Now, of the women that Mr. Client would like to meet with each of these agencies, and the ladies who would like to meet Mr. Client, they simply come to the agency offices and sign the form. Thats it!!!  No meeting of women unless she signs the IMBRA form. We're all legal and IMBRA conforming...



Brass I think you do not have a good understanding of things or are ill-informed.  Of the 150 ladies invited probably around 120 of these women will have been requested by the men. NONE of these 120 ladies would have done any type IMBRA form associated with our tour.

The paragraph you have taken and used as your reference are NOT ladies who will be attending the parties. These are ladies the men will be meeting for private meetings.  Before any man can meet any of these ladies for a private meeting the woman must come to the agency, read the man's IMBRA form, as well his profile, look at his photo. If this woman has interest to meet this man, she must sign and date the sheet of paper attached to the back of this man's IMBRA form.





Which would leave (up to) 60 ladies signing they are in receipt of the IMBRA forms at the door presumably, as our SP again has alluded to:

...Once IMBRA laws begin to be enforced with the ladies attending the ballroom or facility where we are holding the party will be  10, or 11 or 12 IMBRA forms on a desk just before they enter the party. Each women has to sign each of the IMBRA forms. Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA compliant for our tour parties...



Brass, please show me, as well other members here, where I, the SP, has alluded to the ladies would be in receipt of the IMBRA forms?  Again I think someone has ill-advised you, or you do not have a good understanding.

Under the example we have set out with, 10 western clients, their would be 10 separate IMBRA forms, one for each of the 10 men. On the back of each of these IMBRA forms are two sheets of paper. Each sheet is divided in two, has two columns with 18 lines/places for signatures, a total of 36 signatures on each sheet of paper.

We would have about 50 ladies each signing that they have read the IMBRA form, not that they are in receipt of the IMBRA form, but that they have read the IMBRA form for that man.   




Denotes future tense (at least to me) and infact is a change in how (at least) this SP will do business in the future.


This SP HAS done business like this in the past. Brass, it appears that you have been ill-informed or do not have a good understanding.  Your statement denoting of future tense at least to you is not only inaccurate but also misleading. You should really read, or try to get a better understanding, of any Service Provider you are going to make comments about when you begin to state "and infact" when your in fact is not correct.   Further reading in this same thread on your part you would have read the following, which would have prevented you from making a false misrepresentation.


 .......When IMBRA first came out I had the guys do the IMBRA forms, we had ladies sign the IMBRA forms before entering the party. Then I realized the law was not in effect and could not be enforced so stopped with the IMBRA forms. Few clients had to go thru the IMBRA procedure.......


The above paragraph clearly states that the SP has in fact done this business in this manner in the past.  Again I think it's a case of someone ill-informing you, or you not having a good understanding of what you are representing.





Moving on...Our SP further alludes to being 100% IMBRA compliant...

...Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA compliant for our tour parties...

I don't quite see how this is so in that  IMBRA states that you need to provide a *copy* of records of any information retrieved from your IMBRA search or documentation showing the search produced no results in her primary language, yes?
 


Brass, I'm beginning to think you really do not have a very good understanding of things.   

The agencies we work with who have ladies the men have interest to meet each have the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form. I send to each of these agencies the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form.  The profile and IMBRA forms are of course translated into Ukrainian.  If a man has no interest in meeting any ladies at a particular agency, that agency does not get the man's profile, photo, IMBRA form. 

I send to the agencies who have men interested in some of their ladies a list of ladies the client would like to meet. The agency then contacts the lady and advises the lady that an American man is coming to Kharkov or Zaporozhye or Nikolayev in 4 weeks and would like to meet him.  Many times, as I understand, the lady will ask questions about this man and I have instructed the agencies to tell the women that they must come to the agency to find out about this man, they must read his profile, they must look at his photos, that these men are not traveling 6000 miles to have blind dates. As over 90% of all marriage agencies are located in the center of the center, most ladies, if not in the center everyday, are in the center every other day or at least a few times a week.

The lady comes to the agency, she reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, has no interest to meet him. End of that story. Another lady comes in, reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, she has interest to meet this man and she tells this to the agency owner. Now the lady is told she must read, sign and date this man's IMBRA form. When we have previously done this I am told many of the ladies asked what is this IMBRA form and the ladies were told it was an American law and that it would indicate how many times the man has been married, if he has children or a criminal record.

None of the women who were asked to sign the IMBRA form had any problem in doing so.  And of course I have told the agency owners if the IMBRA form is not signed, we can have no meetings. As one might imagine the agency owners make sure the ladies sign and date the IMBRA forms.

Each agency is told they cannot set a single meeting until I have possession of the original IMBRA form with all the ladies original signature. I tell each agency they must keep a copy of each clients IMBRA form as well as signature sheet, but I will always have possession of the original forms and signature sheets.

If a woman from this agency and one of our clients decide to pursue the K-1 visa the woman is provided by the agency a copy of the clients IMBRA form as well the signature sheet showing her signature. But I will not rely solely on the agency to be able to provide this form and that is why I insist on having the original copies. If the agency goes out of business, if an agency begins to develop questionable work ethics and I am no longer working with an agency, I have the man's original records, the IMBRA form and his ladies signature, and provide to the American client and to his lady.





So, you now have 10 separate sheets of compiled confidential docs being disseminated to (up to) 60 ladies for the entire tour. Women you might have contact with for all of 30 seconds or less, if neither is interested in each other...However, she now has your confidential/personal information in her hands.


Again Brass, and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but it seems you have been either ill-informed or do not have a very good understanding.

Under the scenario we used, it would be about 150 ladies and NONE of these ladies are in possession of the man's IMBRA form or the signature sheets stapled to each form. I have the original copy of the man's IMBRA form, I have the original signature sheets. Each agency has a copy of the man's IMBRA form and signature sheet if a man choose any ladies from their agency.




Not exactly just a signature before they join the party as our SP has stated:...


Again Brass, it's apparent you do not have a very good understanding. YES, EXACTLY as the SP has stated, we have the ladies signature before they joined the party.





Or maybe he will circumvent IMBRA Regs by simply making sure he is in receipt of the lady's signature to cover himself and not provide the foreign national with a copy? Lends itself to my 'Agencies bending the rules but might leave the client legally exposed' statement, don't you think?


Brass, according to retained legal council, an immigration attorney, and individuals legal council has spoken with at Homeland Security, this is not as you are incorrectly stating, something you seem to be doing a lot of, circumventing IMBRA regulation. 

I will always be in possession of each man's original IMBRA form and the original signature sheet's and have been advised this is perfectly legal.





Finally, assuming our SP is totally compliant, who pays for the translation, hardcopy, extra admin, records keeping etc.? I bet it won't be the SP, 

You bet it won't be the SP?   Well, for 100% sure we have shown Brass you do not have a good understanding.  My staff translates each man's IMBRA form into Ukraine, not Russian, but the official Ukrainian language. I keep all the original records. 



which means the cost will be passed on to the client, maybe putting the cost of actually going on a tour out of reach for some men. Clientele drops, overhead for the Agency/Broker/SP rises and Oops,..."squeezed out (no longer viable)."


Additional cost to the clients?  Ohh Brass, you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?  Brass, their is NO extra cost to our clients to be IMBRA compliant.  We had not made the cost of our tours any higher, we have not put the cost of the tour out of reach for some men, but good try Brass.   For someone who is in complete agreement with an individual who say's the business is dead, will not exist in the to distance future, I can see why you would want to portray this.   

My overhead rises?  Brass, paper is cheap. 8.5 by 11 inch paper even in Ukraine is very cheap. My staff workers are salary paid, it cost nothing extra for them to translate the men's IMBRA form, so  "squeezed out, no longer viable"  again, good try Brass.     




As an aside...for the gentlemen who've participated; Is it conceivable there is now potentially dozens of women out there, you may have no intention of ever meeting again, whom you may have had a few moments passing conversation with, in possession of your personal info? And when these girls are on their way home after a meal and some drinks, where's the paperwork - in the trash, left somewhere, collected by a bad guy...on the internet?

Brass


No Brass, wrong again. As I have already explained, their are no ladies in possession of a man's personal info. Their could be one lady with this info, a lady who the man is wanting to bring to America, but no bad guy on the internet.




Boils down to bending the rules again...I don't know about you guys but up here but our government takes a dim view of falsifying government/immigration docs and conspiracy involving same.

Brass


Brass, are you indicating, hinting, that I am bending the rules or that I am falsifying government/immigration documents and committing conspiracy?





OK, now can someone explain where I might be ill-informed or suffer from a lack of understanding, thanks.

Brass, I think I have more than shown, several times that you are either very ill-formed or really do not a very good understanding,   .....  and your welcome. 

Brass I don't think their are a lot of individuals, I know of a few, involved with the Russian/Ukraine bride business who have put in as much time and energy in trying to fully understand as much as possible about IMBRA.   A few others and myself have been in contact with various entities of the business and government since early 1996.

Many of the exact points you have brought up, such as hundreds of ladies having clients personal information, were things I was never comfortable with. As indicated I retained legal council early on to help me to know what we could, and could not do. Based on our findings and discussions with many sources connected with the industry, outside the industry and with Homeland Security, we are quite confident we meet all legal aspects of IMBRA.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: nunya on January 21, 2011, 02:14:09 PM
*Hypothetically Speaking*
 
More than likely the SP would not show the ladies anything about anyone and would run the tour, or various introductions, etc... Then when the lust mates decided they are in love and going to do a visa or get married the IMBRA info would get trotted out the forms signed. everyone would agree to say they had seen the info and signed the forms much earlier

 
Hypothetically speaking ecr the ladies meeting the men from IMBRA identified sources will see IMBRA forms on all American men. When the lusted mates decide they are in love and going to get married the American client will already have copies of his IMBRA form with his ladies signature. The lady will have her's, as given to her by the agency, but if not, my people or the American client will be able to make sure she has the man's IMBRA form with her signature and date. No one will have to agree to say anything other than the truth.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: nunya on January 21, 2011, 02:14:43 PM
It doesn't sound like compliance to me.

 
 Hey Tom, spoken like a man well informed and knowledgeable.   Can you please tell me what does not sound like is in compliance with you?
 
I thank you in advance.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: shakespear on January 21, 2011, 02:40:37 PM
Please Brass, we do not offer socials. Please do not get me or my agency confused with the companies who provide socials. We have parties. This is nothing new Brass, I have stated this for well over 10 years that we do not provide socials, we offer parties, I did not want our company to be associated with socials. When I first started this business their were many differences in the way we did things compared to the social providers, so many differences it was quite obvious.

You say either and I say eyether,
You say neither and I say nyther;
Either, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!

You say potato and I say potaeto,
You say tomato and I say tomaeto;
Potato, potaeto, tomato, tomaeto!
Let's call the whole thing off!

George Gershwin from the 1937 movie "Shall We Dance"

Sorry Jack, I just couldn't resist   ;D

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 21, 2011, 07:04:52 PM
Ok Brass, I'll bite, however as I was/am very reluctant to post anything in this topic based on your recent moderation practices I will say if you remove or delete anything you will have to see the remainder of my replies with this thread on another forum.  I'm sure your going to say something along the lines you will delete/remove anything you feel is off topic but as I have seen, as has many others, with your piteous excuse of removing post's 'you' consider off topic, I will stand by what I have stated.

Translation: Dan's not happy with you answering to quotes at another forum which originated at RUA. :chuckle:



Quote from: Jack
Brass, at no time was I, or have I, felt a need to defend my business model. Your statement that I am trying to defend my business model is not correct. 

Well that's a matter of opinion, I suppose. You taking my quote located here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13322.msg190988.html#msg190988) and answering to it by injecting your own business model into the answer (yep, you did that not me) leads me to believe you either somehow felt threatened by the statement or were looking for a scrap. You might have stepped in all the way back on page 3 (Dec 30) and posted "hold on a moment..." if you'd wanted to debate , vice trying to slamdunk me at Dan's. Considering my statement wasn't aimed at you, something must have twigged you answering to it.

Just sayin'
...........................

Quote from: Jack
Jack said...
Please Brass, we do not offer socials. Please do not get me or my agency confused with the companies who provide socials. We have parties. This is nothing new Brass, I have stated this for well over 10 years that we do not provide socials, we offer parties, I did not want our company to be associated with socials. When I first started this business their were many differences in the way we did things compared to the social providers, so many differences it was quite obvious.

For an agency who has stated many times over the last decade that they did not provide socials, for an agency who has written on their website over the last decade, it's written there today, was written there in 2000, that we do not provide socials, we do parties, you have either been ill-informed or do not have a good understanding as to our agency to be making such a statement.

............................
Yep. I even did a quick search here, you do state you do parties, not socials. What you don't state is the difference.

So looking at the definitions reference social gatherings and parties, both state (in context of what we're discussing) a gathering for the purpose of conversation, entertainment, seeking or enjoying the companionship of others, relations, etc. You even state above "When I first started this business their were many differences in the way we did things compared to the social providers, so many differences it was quite obvious." Well, "social" or "party" we have a group of people getting together for a social gathering. Other than the definition of "party" having a bit more of a rowdy conitation to it's definition, I see no difference.

So, what's the difference? Is it a marketing thing trying to separate yourself from the other agencies or is there an actual difference in how you conduct your parties vice how the other agencies conduct their socials?

Maybe TG can shed some light on it?
..............................
Quote from: Jack
Jack said...
Ladies who attend our parties have been invited, we have no "blind" attendees.
...........................
I'll clarify; Blind as in blind date in that yes, as you've stated one of your clients may have picked her out and would like to meet her but has had no prior contact with her (invited by the support staff I believe you mentioned).
..............................

Quote from: Jack
Jack said....
Brass, not 100% correct, maybe 40% correct. 

First you need to understand about 50% of the ladies who attend our parties today are associated with various marriage agencies. The men have chosen these ladies as being ladies they would have an interest to meet. The men have had no prior contact, not by phone, not by email, not by letter, no previous contact with these ladies. The men like the way the lady looks, likes what he see's in her profile, he would like to meet her at the party. We advise the agencies and they offer invitations to the party to these ladies.

Now almost all the guys are also dealing with ladies from other agencies as well and are writing ladies from other internet sites including free Russian sites and Russian personal websites, one site with millions of Russian ladies who are members. 

Of this group of ladies, say the ladies from Elena's Models, or A Pretty Woman, or AFA, even Anastasia, the men may have made some type prior contact, but not always. Sometimes the men will just acquire the ladies contact information, like with A Pretty Woman or Bride.ru, and our support staff will contact the ladies, tell them of our party and invite them.   *The ladies the men make contact with from the Russian personal sites, all the men have made some contact with, usually by messaging thru the i-net site, or by email, but once the men get the ladies phone numbers then one of our staff ladies will call, get involved and either set a private meeting with the lady* or invite her to the party.

If men are even a little successful they are going to have too many ladies to meet for private meetings, thus the parties are a great way for these men to meet several ladies who interest them that they would not probably be able to meet otherwise.

Now, all the ladies who are with marriage agencies will have to comply 100% with IMBRA procedures. Both ladies who the men meet through private meetings as well the parties.  *The ladies the men have private meetings with thru the free Russian sites or the Russian personal sites are IMBRA exempt,* BUT the ladies from these same exempt sites who attend our parties now qualify for IMBRA as they are attending our sponsored party even though one of the men has already obtained her direct contact information. The reason these ladies now qualify for IMBRA is because they are now meeting many other American men. So although one man has already made a legal, non-binding IMBRA contact with her, the other men are meeting her with the help of an IMB, me, and now these ladies must fall under IMBRA.

To make it simple, effective and legal, ALL ladies attending our parties must sign and date each man's IMBRA signature sheet
..............................
Why are they (bolded statements[Edit: now *asterisk]) IMBRA exempt?  Aren't you now facilitating that initial (private) meeting regardless of whether or not the US based client was already in possession of his/her contact particulars?

IMBRA SEC. 833 (6) PERSONAL CONTACT INFORMATION.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘‘personal contact information’’
means information, or a forum to obtain such information,
that would permit individuals to contact each other,
including—
(i) the name or residential, postal, electronic mail,
or instant message address of an individual;
(ii) the telephone, pager, cellphone, or fax number,
or voice message mailbox of an individual; or
(iii) the provision of an opportunity for an in-person
meeting.


Simple curiosity, it's not an accusation...

To be continued.

Brass

Sorry about the quotes. My coding is offline again.







Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 21, 2011, 07:40:13 PM
It doesn't sound like compliance to me.

 
 Hey Tom, spoken like a man well informed and knowledgeable.   Can you please tell me what does not sound like is in compliance with you?
 
I thank you in advance.

Good practice dictates that the recipient of a document receives a hard copy, immediately upon signing, and acknowledges receipt on both the copy and the original. From the description upthread, it sounds as though this is not happening.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 21, 2011, 09:01:51 PM
If were going to assume Brass let's try to be much closer on the actual figure's, ok?  3 parties, 3 cities, 10 men, 150 female guests.

Brass I think you do not have a good understanding of things or are ill-informed.  Of the 150 ladies invited probably around 120 of these women will have been requested by the men. NONE of these 120 ladies would have done any type IMBRA form associated with our tour.

So 150 ladies at the parties. Of these 150 ladies, 120 will have been requested by the US based clients; None of these 120 foreign nationals (ladies) would have received/[edit: signed] any type of IMBRA paperwork associated with the tour, is that correct?

These 120 women requested by the client(s) are above and beyond the private meetings that have already been arranged.

...However, you've posted that any women attending private meetings are not women who will be attending the parties (below)...

...And then you post  "If men are even a little successful they are going to have too many ladies to meet for private meetings, thus the parties are a great way for these men to meet several ladies who interest them that they would not probably be able to meet otherwise."

So, let's bottom line this...it really doesn't matter how many women are at the party or whether or not they've signed off an IMBRA form to see a client prior - they have to sign off to attend the party, right?

Whether it's 120 or 150, agency, free personal or whatever; they all need to sign at some point. Where and when are they signing off and how do you ensure it's been done - You or the agencies?

Quote from: Jack
The paragraph you have taken and used as your reference are NOT ladies who will be attending the parties. These are ladies the men will be meeting for private meetings.  Before any man can meet any of these ladies for a private meeting the woman must come to the agency, read the man's IMBRA form, as well his profile, look at his photo. If this woman has interest to meet this man, she must sign and date the sheet of paper attached to the back of this man's IMBRA form.

Brass

Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 21, 2011, 09:59:22 PM
Brass, please show me, as well other members here, where I, the SP, has alluded to the ladies would be in receipt of the IMBRA forms?  Again I think someone has ill-advised you, or you do not have a good understanding.

Under the example we have set out with, 10 western clients, their would be 10 separate IMBRA forms, one for each of the 10 men. On the back of each of these IMBRA forms are two sheets of paper. Each sheet is divided in two, has two columns with 18 lines/places for signatures, a total of 36 signatures on each sheet of paper.

We would have about 50 ladies each signing that they have read the IMBRA form, not that they are in receipt of the IMBRA form, but that they have read the IMBRA form for that man.

In accordance with the Act you should be providing a copy of the doc(s) to each signatory. My question was, if these women were in receipt of the docs, what were they doing with them after the party. 

Quote from: Jack
This SP HAS done business like this in the past. Brass, it appears that you have been ill-informed or do not have a good understanding.  Your statement denoting of future tense at least to you is not only inaccurate but also misleading. You should really read, or try to get a better understanding, of any Service Provider you are going to make comments about when you begin to state "and infact" when your in fact is not correct.   Further reading in this same thread on your part you would have read the following, which would have prevented you from making a false misrepresentation.


 .......When IMBRA first came out I had the guys do the IMBRA forms, we had ladies sign the IMBRA forms before entering the party. Then I realized the law was not in effect and could not be enforced so stopped with the IMBRA forms. Few clients had to go thru the IMBRA procedure.......


The above paragraph clearly states that the SP has in fact done this business in this manner in the past.  Again I think it's a case of someone ill-informing you, or you not having a good understanding of what you are representing.

There was no misleading statement. My use of "infact" was accurate. You infact are changing how you do business. It has nothing to do with the history of how you did business only the present and future.

You've broken your post up addressing the same issues in different answers so I'll probably end up addressing this again but you've stated that you stopped complying with the IMBRA Regs because it was not in effect and couldn't be enforced - was this because the Act was rescinded-put on hold-or a notification it was under revue released? Why was it not in effect and unenforceable?

How are your clients dealing with this question if asked during the interview stage? (How did you meet?)

Brass






Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 21, 2011, 11:35:49 PM
rass, I'm beginning to think you really do not have a very good understanding of things.   

The agencies we work with who have ladies the men have interest to meet each have the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form. I send to each of these agencies the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form.  The profile and IMBRA forms are of course translated into Ukrainian.  If a man has no interest in meeting any ladies at a particular agency, that agency does not get the man's profile, photo, IMBRA form. 

I send to the agencies who have men interested in some of their ladies a list of ladies the client would like to meet. The agency then contacts the lady and advises the lady that an American man is coming to Kharkov or Zaporozhye or Nikolayev in 4 weeks and would like to meet him.  Many times, as I understand, the lady will ask questions about this man and I have instructed the agencies to tell the women that they must come to the agency to find out about this man, they must read his profile, they must look at his photos, that these men are not traveling 6000 miles to have blind dates. As over 90% of all marriage agencies are located in the center of the center, most ladies, if not in the center everyday, are in the center every other day or at least a few times a week.

The lady comes to the agency, she reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, has no interest to meet him. End of that story. Another lady comes in, reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, she has interest to meet this man and she tells this to the agency owner. Now the lady is told she must read, sign and date this man's IMBRA form. When we have previously done this I am told many of the ladies asked what is this IMBRA form and the ladies were told it was an American law and that it would indicate how many times the man has been married, if he has children or a criminal record.

None of the women who were asked to sign the IMBRA form had any problem in doing so.  And of course I have told the agency owners if the IMBRA form is not signed, we can have no meetings. As one might imagine the agency owners make sure the ladies sign and date the IMBRA forms.

Each agency is told they cannot set a single meeting until I have possession of the original IMBRA form with all the ladies original signature. I tell each agency they must keep a copy of each clients IMBRA form as well as signature sheet, but I will always have possession of the original forms and signature sheets.

If a woman from this agency and one of our clients decide to pursue the K-1 visa the woman is provided by the agency a copy of the clients IMBRA form as well the signature sheet showing her signature. But I will not rely solely on the agency to be able to provide this form and that is why I insist on having the original copies. If the agency goes out of business, if an agency begins to develop questionable work ethics and I am no longer working with an agency, I have the man's original records, the IMBRA form and his ladies signature, and provide to the American client and to his lady.

Alright, so in this segment of your post you are again collecting signatures retaining forms etc. When did you start complying with IMBRA again and why?

Quote from: Jack
.......When IMBRA first came out I had the guys do the IMBRA forms, we had ladies sign the IMBRA forms before entering the party. Then I realized the law was not in effect and could not be enforced so stopped with the IMBRA forms. Few clients had to go thru the IMBRA procedure.......

Quote from: Jack
Jack said...
Again Brass, and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but it seems you have been either ill-informed or do not have a very good understanding.

Under the scenario we used, it would be about 150 ladies and NONE of these ladies are in possession of the man's IMBRA form or the signature sheets stapled to each form. I have the original copy of the man's IMBRA form, I have the original signature sheets. Each agency has a copy of the man's IMBRA form and signature sheet if a man choose any ladies from their agency.
..............
And I don't want to sound like a broken record either Jack but the Act states 'provide a copy'

"...(iii) provided to the foreign national client---
(I) in the foreign national client’s primary language,
a copy of any records retrieved from the
search required under paragraph (2)(A)(i) or documentation
confirming that such search retrieved
no records..."
..........................
Not exactly just a signature before they join the party as our SP has stated:...

Quote from: Jack
Jack said...
Again Brass, it's apparent you do not have a very good understanding. YES, EXACTLY as the SP has stated, we have the ladies signature before they joined the party.
...................
You've missed the point of my statement. What I'm trying to convey is there's more to it than just obtaining a signature before they join the party as in qualifying the paragraph above the sentence you quoted.
....................
Or maybe he will circumvent IMBRA Regs by simply making sure he is in receipt of the lady's signature to cover himself and not provide the foreign national with a copy? Lends itself to my 'Agencies bending the rules but might leave the client legally exposed' statement, don't you think?

Quote from: Jack
Jack said...
Brass, according to retained legal council, an immigration attorney, and individuals legal council has spoken with at Homeland Security, this is not as you are incorrectly stating, something you seem to be doing a lot of, circumventing IMBRA regulation. 

I will always be in possession of each man's original IMBRA form and the original signature sheet's and have been advised this is perfectly legal.
..............
We keep coming back to this and it's outlined above. Really Jack you could have cut the length of this post in halve.

Anyway, I (again) have not incorrectly stated anything, the Act states 'provide a copy'. I have no doubt you keeping the original signature/form is perfectly legal Jack but that's not really what the thrust of my argument is.
....................

Finally, assuming our SP is totally compliant, who pays for the translation, hardcopy, extra admin, records keeping etc.? I bet it won't be the SP, 

Quote from: Jack
Jack said....
You bet it won't be the SP?   Well, for 100% sure we have shown Brass you do not have a good understanding.  My staff translates each man's IMBRA form into Ukraine, not Russian, but the official Ukrainian language. I keep all the original records. 

which means the cost will be passed on to the client, maybe putting the cost of actually going on a tour out of reach for some men. Clientele drops, overhead for the Agency/Broker/SP rises and Oops,..."squeezed out (no longer viable)."

Quote from: Jack
Jack said...
Additional cost to the clients?  Ohh Brass, you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?  Brass, their is NO extra cost to our clients to be IMBRA compliant.  We had not made the cost of our tours any higher, we have not put the cost of the tour out of reach for some men, but good try Brass.   For someone who is in complete agreement with an individual who say's the business is dead, will not exist in the to distance future, I can see why you would want to portray this.   

My overhead rises?  Brass, paper is cheap. 8.5 by 11 inch paper even in Ukraine is very cheap. My staff workers are salary paid, it cost nothing extra for them to translate the men's IMBRA form, so  "squeezed out, no longer viable"  again, good try Brass.
..................

So you state there's no extra cost to IMBRA associated paperwork? Well for one, at some point you weren't even following IMBRA (as you stated above), so I guess we can scratch that time frame. As for the rest you (as you also mentioned) don't appear to provide copies anyway, so how would you know?  :chuckle:

Brass

 



 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 22, 2011, 12:08:16 AM
As an aside...for the gentlemen who've participated; Is it conceivable there is now potentially dozens of women out there, you may have no intention of ever meeting again, whom you may have had a few moments passing conversation with, in possession of your personal info? And when these girls are on their way home after a meal and some drinks, where's the paperwork - in the trash, left somewhere, collected by a bad guy...on the internet?
No Brass, wrong again. As I have already explained, their are no ladies in possession of a man's personal info. Their could be one lady with this info, a lady who the man is wanting to bring to America, but no bad guy on the internet.

But is it conceivable that if copies of the form(s) were given out as the Act stipulates - there might be multiple copies of these things floating around unsecured, seeing as once promulgated, you (or any SP) really has no control over what the ladies might do with them, especially in a situation where there are multiple women/guests congregating in one area (like a party)? Which is what I was trying to get across...


Boils down to bending the rules again...I don't know about you guys but up here but our government takes a dim view of falsifying government/immigration docs and conspiracy involving same.
Quote from: nunya
Brass, are you indicating, hinting, that I am bending the rules or that I am falsifying government/immigration documents and committing conspiracy?

Jack, why would you think that my answering to ECR's hypothetical question, which was in a separate message altogether, have anything to do with you? :chuckle:



Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: nunya on January 22, 2011, 02:44:02 AM

Translation: Dan's not happy with you answering to quotes at another forum which originated at RUA. :chuckle:


ahhh, I did not know that.  So did Dan tell you this, or to someone you know? 

Dan has certainly not said anything to me about my post on another forum.



Quote from: Jack
Brass, at no time was I, or have I, felt a need to defend my business model. Your statement that I am trying to defend my business model is not correct. 

Well that's a matter of opinion, I suppose.


Wellll duhhhh!   You suppose?

It certainly is someone's opinion.
We certainly know it is your expressed opinion, unless you can show me anywhere I indicated I was defending my business model, which of course you can't.

Brass
something must have twigged you answering to it.


Nawww Brass, nothing twigged me to answer it,...unless of course it's another one of those things you were lead to believe.   



Brass
leads me to believe you either somehow felt threatened by the statement


Well, that's all we need to hear!  Anything that leads YOU to believe something then it MUST be the case.  Good example as to the many things you were lead to believe in your post number 373.  .


Brass
Yep. I even did a quick search here, you do state you do parties, not socials.

Good, good, I'm glad you were able to see for yourself that I have indicated for many years that we have parties, not socials. Hopefully you won't make that mistake again.


Brass
What you don't state is the difference.
Brass
So, what's the difference?


I don't state what some of the difference's are?  Are you sure about that Brass?  In no previous post's here I have never stated some of the differences?

I think I have written on this before, I think you are mistaken or didn't look, but if your saying you couldn't find where I have discussed it, and I don't have the time right now to go back and look, I'll take your word for it.

Ok, so what are some of the difference's? 

Brass, not that I want to make a habit out of this, one should be able to find and prove out these things on their own, but I'll go to my website and go to the group tour section and pull out some of that information.   

Here are some of the difference's.


No other company or agency puts in the time and effort that we do for each of the men attending

If you are thinking of just hopping on a plane, going to three socials and meeting a lot of pretty young girls and choosing your wife from one of the girls at these three socials, then our group tour is not for you.

Having personally attended several of the larger socials during my own pursuit, I have seen what I consider the good, the bad and the ugly that these socials have to offer, and as such, we have taken the good, made it even better, got rid of the bad and the ugly (as we perceived it), and have created an efficient event and environment that we think is just as fun and rewarding for the men, as it is for the special ladies who are attending.

Today these same agencies are averaging half of what they used to draw, and one of the original agencies to do large group tours has stopped doing group tours all together,...why? Because, in my opinion, the truth about many of these socials has gotten out! Men, mostly thanks to the Internet, have become more aware of what is going on. With many of today's bigger companies that sponsor socials you basically have two types of ladies who attend; the women who attend social after social after social, (many of which I call social scammers, working girls and party girls) and who could make up probably over 80% of the women in attendance, and the sincere ladies who are attending for the first, and LAST time. Many sincere ladies attending for the first time are so disgusted by what they see that I have seen many good ladies walking out of socials early in tears. So many young, beautiful girls who are dressed very seductively and who aggressively seek any and all men. These are not your typical Russian ladies! Young girls who latch onto any man of 45, 55 or 65 years of age (preferably those with diamond rings, Rolex watches, gold necklaces), holding onto his arm, not wanting to ever let him go, staring into his eyes making this man think he has luckily meet his future dream bride. So young, so beautiful and sensual are these women, that many of these men think the stories they have read and heard from some of these bigger agencies about Russian ladies preferring older men are true and how lucky they are to have met their young beautiful bride. "Two hundred women here and somehow my dream bride finds me, and so quickly", he convinces himself. It is the goal of each one of these social scammer women and professional daters to keep this man occupied for that evening, and the next two days if possible, keeping him away from the other socials and other ladies, even if that means screwing his brains out that first night. If she can manage this, and many of these women are quite good and successful at this, she will now have this man to herself for the remainder of the week. During this time she will acquire new clothes, purse, cell phone, shoes, things for her flat, spending money, etc. When these good, sincere ladies who show up for the first time to these big socials see what is going on, and how these social scammers, party girls, working women aggressively go after the guys attending, and how very few of the men pay any attention to the sincere ladies, many of these good ladies get up and leave, promising to never attend such a function again and in the process telling other good ladies of what is taking place. And these ladies tell other ladies who tell other ladies. Today it is getting harder and harder to find good, sincere ladies to attend many of these bigger socials and as a result the percentage of social scammers attending steadily increases. The word "socials" in my opinion is getting such a bad reputation and black eye with so many ladies in Ukraine and Russia today that I do not want to even use the word social in association with our group tours. So I have replaced the word social for party. Maybe the word party is not as professional sounding as the word social once was, but if I use the word social it will certainly affect the caliber of ladies we are trying to have attend our functions.

Ask almost any man who has attended some of these bigger socials and he will probably tell you what I am saying here is the truth, word for word. In my opinion these socials put on by most the larger tour providers have seen there better days as the word has gotten out about the majority of type of women to be found there. Look at how many good references some of these big agencies have of men who can talk good about the socials, who recommend the socials. Please, check with some of the men who have attended our group tours. With great pride we offer you the opportunity to talk to men who have been part of our group tours. Many of our clients have also attended one or more of the big socials and listen to their opinions as to the difference's between our parties and the socials. I personally work very hard with each of these men for 2-3-4 months prior to each trip to help him have the most efficient trip possible. And not all ladies are met just at the parties. The many private meetings that the men work hard for are just as important as the parties.

Women are not allowed just to walk in off the street and attend. At our parties we have free champagne, wine, juice, food and snacks, not just for the ladies, but for the men also. There is of course a bar and bartender for those who prefer soft drinks, mixed drinks and beer. Good music, plenty of dancing, and we have various contest's, prizes to give away and a few games that we play which help to liven things up and allows for everyone to know others better. For the first couple of hours we will keep the men moving to different tables, as Russian ladies for the most part are somewhat shy. Usually men will be at a table with his interpreter and four or five nice ladies for about 12 minutes. During this time you talk to the ladies, see which ladies you may have an interest to get to know better. We have found that this is the best way to have the men meet many wonderful ladies in a short period who interest them. Each man will have his own interpreter and his interpreter can help him to set meetings with the ladies. The last few hours of the parties, when the dancing begins, we just let mother nature take it's course.

We provide interpreters at all our parties, one interpreter per man. Unlike the interpreters in the past who have worked for some of the bigger social companies, we pay our interpreters for their services. I have heard, and had a few interpreters to verify to me, that the interpreters who have attend some socials for some of the larger companies are invited to attend but are not paid anything. They are told that if they work as an interpreter that they will have the opportunity to meet many foreign men who are interested in marriage to a Russian woman. Now correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't this seem like a conflict of interest if I have an interpreter who is working for me, trying to help me with a lady I have interest in, when the interpreter might have an interest in me! I would wonder what exactly she is telling the lady I have interest in? It has happened in the past and it will happen again where an interpreter who is interested in a man for herself will deliberately sabotage a potential relationship. Our interpreters are told of our strict code of conduct. They are not allowed to date or be involved with any of the men until the last party in that city is over and they cannot be an interpreter for any man they might have interest in. If we see or find out otherwise, we will not use this lady as an interpreter again. I am happy to say that since we started this practice six years ago I believe some of the other agencies have changed their policy about their interpreters, closely following the guidelines and standards we have set.





Quote from: Jack
Jack said...
Ladies who attend our parties have been invited, we have no "blind" attendees.
...........................

Brass
I'll clarify; Blind as in blind date in that yes, as you've stated one of your clients may have picked her out and would like to meet her but has had no prior contact with her (invited by the support staff I believe you mentioned).


ahhhhh, yes, please clarify. All my life blind date would mean that neither the man or woman had seen the other before, thus the term "Blind", as in cannot see.    So I now understand that when you refer to blind it means that they had no prior contact. 

This must be one of those difference's between two countries/cultures.

As I mentioned earlier, and something I stress to the agencies, our men are not traveling 6000 miles for a blind date, meaning they have seen a woman they are attracted to and would like to meet. We send to the agency one or two of the man's best photos and insist the woman see his photo, no blind dates.


When you had wrote,...

frequented by multiple ladies whom either arrive 'blind' (no prior invite by a tour participant) to the social or having made prior arrangements to attend the social

.......I thought you meant she had not been invited, meaning no man had invited her, or seen her.  Now I understand you mean by blind in that their had been no previous contact between the men and women attending the parties.  So in this case yes, with this understanding, many ladies are arriving blind.


Brass

Why are they (bolded statements[Edit: now *asterisk]) IMBRA exempt?  Aren't you now facilitating that initial (private) meeting regardless of whether or not the US based client was already in possession of his/her contact particulars?


The clients sign up for various sites, like Lucky-Lovers, Mamba, freepersonal.com, Larva, to name a few.   Some of these sites are free, some they have to pay for.  The men register, themselves, not by me or our staff. The men add their photos, not me or our staff, the men pick and choose and write any and all ladies who interest them, not me or our staff.

Some of the ladies write the men back and the two will exchange some messages. Neither I nor any of our staff know what ladies these guys are writing, what they are writing about in their messages. The men are, about 90% of the time, writing ladies who can speak or write a little English.  In the case of them writing a lady who does not speak or write English he will use one of the various translation software's available on line.

At some point the man and woman exchange emails and then phone numbers.  The man has done this 100% on his own. This relationship at this point and time is 100% non IMBRA.  These sites, as of today, are IMBRA exempt.  If at some point in time if the government wants to change it's ruling on what agencies, sites, are exempt and non-exempt sites then maybe this will change. But as of today, these sites and a whole lot more like them are IMBRA exempt.

If the man is writing one of these ladies and wants to meet her over dinner, or lunch, or for coffee, then he will set a day and time for this meeting with the woman. He has done this 100% on his own.  We, myself or staff, have had nothing to do with facilitating this initial private meeting.   Now, if the client wants to invite one of these ladies to the party, and the client provides us with the ladies name and phone number we will call this lady and invite her to the party, just as we will call ladies from Elena's Models that men will provide us the ladies contact information for.  Once we call the lady from the non-IMBRA Russian i-net site and invite her to the party she has become a non-exempt IMBRA lady. And as I stated, every woman who attends the party must read, sign and date each man's IMBRA form before she can enter the party and meet the men.

In addition to Elena's Models some men purchase ladies contact information from AFA and Anastasia as well just to mention three large agencies which have IMBRA procedures for it's clients.  In order to get these ladies contact information from these agencies, and many more, men must complete that agencies IMBRA requirements.  Some of these women the men will meet for private meetings, some of the ladies they will invite to the party.  When the men give us these ladies information and request us set a private meeting, or invite to the party, we do so.

Brass
To be continued.

Not a problem Brass. I may not be able to reply back until the first of the week as I'll be away from computer for a few days.


ps, not sure what the problem is but appears to be a problem putting Brass's quotes in the blue quote box. I can't figure it out.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: nunya on January 22, 2011, 02:44:30 AM

So 150 ladies at the parties. Of these 150 ladies, 120 will have been requested by the US based clients; None of these 120 foreign nationals (ladies) would have received any type of IMBRA paperwork associated with the tour, is that correct?


Some of the 120 ladies will have seen the IMBRA profile for one man, usually the man who would like to meet her for a private meeting, or to invite to the party, but they would not have seen any other IMBRA forms for the other nine men or the pamphlets, until they arrived at the party.  Many times a lady who has been asked if she would be interested in a private meeting with a man has not had interested in meeting him, but would like to attend the party. In these cases these ladies would have seen the IMBRA form for one man.



These 120 women requested by the client(s) are above and beyond the private meetings that have already been arranged.


For the most part yes.  Occasionally two men will chose the same lady and this lady could have had a private meeting with one man and accepted invitation to party from another man. Does not happen a lot but does happen.  In both of these cases the lady would have signed the IMBRA form for the man she had the private meeting with, as well all the IMBRA forms of the men at the party.




...However, you've posted that any women attending private meetings are not women who will be attending the parties (below)...


This is true for the most part with the exception that I noted. Their are ladies who have private meetings with a man, and who also attend the party.




...And then you post  "If men are even a little successful they are going to have too many ladies to meet for private meetings, thus the parties are a great way for these men to meet several ladies who interest them that they would not probably be able to meet otherwise."


Yes.



So, let's bottom line this...it really doesn't matter how many women are at the party or whether or not they've signed off an IMBRA form to see a client prior - they have to sign off to attend the party, right?


All women entering the party have to sign the IMBRA forms for each American client who is attending the party.   All women with marriage agencies who have private meetings with men will have to sign the IMBRA form for that man before they meet.




Whether it's 120 or 150, agency, free personal or whatever; they all need to sign at some point.


Only if they are attending the party, or ladies from marriage agencies who have private meetings.  Ladies from free personal sites, Russian personal sites, do not have to sign IMBRA forms for private meetings.



Where and when are they signing off and how do you ensure it's been done - You or the agencies?


We have staff at the front entrance to the party, where we have chairs and tables with the IMBRA forms on them. Our staff, our people, let each lady in as she signs all the IMBRA forms. Once the ladies enter the party they are given a name tag. When a lady leaves the facility to go to the bathroom or have a smoke break and they have a name tag, they are allowed back into the party with no problem. If they do not have their name tag we verify the lady has signed the IMBRA form before allowing her in.


In accordance with the Act you should be providing a copy of the doc(s) to each signatory.

In accordance with the Act we are providing a copy of the doc's to each lady and man who are thinking about a K-1 or who ask for such. Once the IMBRA pamphlets are made available all ladies will be given these either at the agency or the party.



My question was, if these women were in receipt of the docs, what were they doing with them after the party. 


Brass, just when I think your getting a grasp of things, you come up with another question like this.  Ok, again, the ladies are not given any IMBRA documents at the party. The ladies must sign and date each man's IMBRA form. The ladies will all be given a US IMBRA pamphlet, translated into Ukrainian, once the government has created and issued these.
 

There was no misleading statement. My use of "infact" was accurate. You infact are changing how you do business.

And AGAIN Brass, you are WRONG.  Although business's are always changing, at this time and point with regards to IMBRA nothing is changing with how we do business with the exception of passing out the IMBRA pamphlets. Future changes in the law may require such changes, but as the law is written today, NO Brass, we are not having to change how we have addressed IMBRA.



It has nothing to do with the history of how you did business only the present and future.

And you are WRONG Brass.  The way we addressed IMBRA in the past, is the same we will address IMBRA in the future with the exception of having the pamphlets to pass out.




You've broken your post up addressing the same issues in different answers so I'll probably end up addressing this again


Not a problem Brass.



you've stated that you stopped complying with the IMBRA Regs because it was not in effect and couldn't be enforced - was this because the Act was rescinded-put on hold-or a notification it was under revue released? Why was it not in effect and unenforceable?

As we, myself and a few other well known agency owners, started going over the law as written and approved we noticed that we had to also be passing out these IMBRA pamphlets translated into the ladies native language to be in compliance.  One of the agency owners called Homeland Security and ask about these pamphlets and when they would be available for us. The people at Homeland security could not give us a date as to when they would have these available. I had retained legal council so got them involved with Homeland security and it was learned, discussed and widely accepted by all parties that the law could not be enforced until all aspects of the law were in place, which meant the IMBRA pamphlets had to be given to these foreign ladies meeting American men.



How are your clients dealing with this question if asked during the interview stage? (How did you meet?)


Brass, the IMBRA law is not in effect. IMBRA legally cannot be enforced at this time. Dan did make some mention about the way one aspect of the law could be interpreted but it is widely accepted by most attorneys that the law is very clear and requires the government to produce and pass out these IMBRA pamphlets before IMBRA can be enforced.

I am not aware of any client, or his fiancée, who has been asked about IMBRA during the interview process.


rass, I'm beginning to think you really do not have a very good understanding of things.   

The agencies we work with who have ladies the men have interest to meet each have the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form. I send to each of these agencies the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form.  The profile and IMBRA forms are of course translated into Ukrainian.  If a man has no interest in meeting any ladies at a particular agency, that agency does not get the man's profile, photo, IMBRA form. 

I send to the agencies who have men interested in some of their ladies a list of ladies the client would like to meet. The agency then contacts the lady and advises the lady that an American man is coming to Kharkov or Zaporozhye or Nikolayev in 4 weeks and would like to meet him.  Many times, as I understand, the lady will ask questions about this man and I have instructed the agencies to tell the women that they must come to the agency to find out about this man, they must read his profile, they must look at his photos, that these men are not traveling 6000 miles to have blind dates. As over 90% of all marriage agencies are located in the center of the center, most ladies, if not in the center everyday, are in the center every other day or at least a few times a week.

The lady comes to the agency, she reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, has no interest to meet him. End of that story. Another lady comes in, reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, she has interest to meet this man and she tells this to the agency owner. Now the lady is told she must read, sign and date this man's IMBRA form. When we have previously done this I am told many of the ladies asked what is this IMBRA form and the ladies were told it was an American law and that it would indicate how many times the man has been married, if he has children or a criminal record.

None of the women who were asked to sign the IMBRA form had any problem in doing so.  And of course I have told the agency owners if the IMBRA form is not signed, we can have no meetings. As one might imagine the agency owners make sure the ladies sign and date the IMBRA forms.

Each agency is told they cannot set a single meeting until I have possession of the original IMBRA form with all the ladies original signature. I tell each agency they must keep a copy of each clients IMBRA form as well as signature sheet, but I will always have possession of the original forms and signature sheets.

If a woman from this agency and one of our clients decide to pursue the K-1 visa the woman is provided by the agency a copy of the clients IMBRA form as well the signature sheet showing her signature. But I will not rely solely on the agency to be able to provide this form and that is why I insist on having the original copies. If the agency goes out of business, if an agency begins to develop questionable work ethics and I am no longer working with an agency, I have the man's original records, the IMBRA form and his ladies signature, and provide to the American client and to his lady.

Alright, so in this segment of your post you are again collecting signatures retaining forms etc.


Brass, what I have described above is how we did things when we did follow the new IMBRA law shortly after the law was passed.   




When did you start complying with IMBRA again and why?


wow!  I am beginning to wonder now if you are really serious or just screwing with me.  Brass, we HAVE NOT began complying with IMBRA again. I think it might help if you read all the post's and comments from both discussion boards.

We first complied to IMBRA soon after the law was passed and a short time later we realized we were not in full compliance because we did not have these pamphlets to pass out, as the law requires.  It was soon after that that we learned that the IMBRA law was not ready to go into effect.

A couple of months ago the American goverment finally agreed to the wording of the IMBRA pamphlet. It has taken five years just to agree on the wording of the pamphlet, well, at least some progress. Now the goverment has to take the English version and translate into the ladies native language, then produce several hundred thousands for each language and to pass out to IMB and I understand both Russian and Ukraine marriage agencies, but I'm not sure about that, just something I heard might happen.  I understand the goverment has elected 14 countries to have the first copies of translated pamphlets. No one outside the Homeland security knows which of these 14 countries have been elected but I feel for sure Russia has.  I am hoping Ukraine has not been overlooked and some official thinking the Russian version will work in Ukraine. My legal council has advised me we must have a Ukraine translated version for our tours to Ukraine.

When will these translated pamphlets be available?  It could be in two months, it could be four, six months. No one knows for sure but the feeling is it should be soon and I expect in the next few months.


And I don't want to sound like a broken record either Jack but the Act states 'provide a copy'


And I am going to tell you again, and again and again Brass, we will and can provide copies to both the American client and the foreign ladies.  The marriage agencies that the women are associated with will also be able to give any of the ladies a copy of the man's IMBRA report and her signature.  Brass, you may not like the way we are doing this and I quite frankly I don't care if you like it or not but I know legal council went into great details with individuls of Homeland security and our tours and how was the best way we could proceed and still meet the requirements of IMBRA. 


You've missed the point of my statement.


Well, I would say I'm due for such as it seems you have missed point after point of many of my statments.



What I'm trying to convey is there's more to it than just obtaining a signature before they join the party as in qualifying the paragraph above the sentence you quoted.

Well Brass, maybe there's more to it for you. For our needs and to satisfy Homeland Security we will ask each lady to read each man's IMBRA profile and to sign and date each profile she has read and we will give each and every lady a copy of the IMBRA pamphlet. Should this lady ask for a copy of this IMBRA profile and signature she will of course be given such. Should any lady or American client ask for copies of the IMBRA profiles and ladies signatures for their visa appliacation of course they will be given copies of these.




We keep coming back to this and it's outlined above. Really Jack you could have cut the length of this post in halve.

Anyway, I (again) have not incorrectly stated anything, the Act states 'provide a copy'. I have no doubt you keeping the original signature/form is perfectly legal Jack but that's not really what the thrust of my argument is.



And I will tell you again, and again, and again Brass, we can and will provide a copy to any lady who ask's for a copy as well provide copies to both any lady and man who request's such for their visa application.




So you state there's no extra cost to IMBRA associated paperwork? Well for one, at some point you weren't even following IMBRA (as you stated above),


Brass, NO marriage agency in America has been able to follow the IMBRA law to it's full degree. NONE, notta, zippo. No agency will be able to comply with IMBRA until such time the IMBRA pamphlets are made available.  Their could be, probably are a few agencies who have elected to follow the IMBRA law without being able to fully comply. Most agencies have elected not to even try until they could fully comply.


 

 As for the rest you (as you also mentioned) don't appear to provide copies anyway, so how would you know?  :chuckle:

Brass, we will have original documents that we keep. We will provide for copies for all the agencies, we will provide for copies to any ladies who request as well provide copies to the men and ladies who are thinking about filing for a visa.



But is it conceivable that if copies of the form(s) were given out as the Act stipulates - there might be multiple copies of these things floating around unsecured,

Brass, we do have copies to pass out if any ladies want a copy and we do have copies to give to each American client, and we do have copies to give to each woman who is hoping to get a K-1 visa.

And yes, if another marriage agency who might do things differently than what we are doing was to pass out copies to each lady at a party there could be multiple copies of these things floating around unsecured.


seeing as once promulgated, you (or any SP) really has no control over what the ladies might do with them, especially in a situation where there are multiple women/guests congregating in one area (like a party)? Which is what I was trying to get across...

At this time Brass we do have control over what the ladies might do with them.





Jack, why would you think that my answering to ECR's hypothetical question, which was in a separate message altogether, have anything to do with you?


I wan't sure Brass, that's why I asked.


Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: nunya on January 22, 2011, 02:45:13 AM

Good practice dictates that the recipient of a document receives a hard copy, immediately upon signing, and acknowledges receipt on both the copy and the original. From the description upthread, it sounds as though this is not happening.


uhhhhh, let me see if I understand this correctly.

You say it sounds like we are not in compliance and when I ask why, you say it's because I do not follow good practice's?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 22, 2011, 03:12:32 AM
Brass,

What I don't get in all this back-and-forth with Jack is why you seem to hold yourself out as more expert at the requirements of IMBRA than an immigration lawyer and the people at Homeland Security, which will (eventually) enforce it?

Do I remember wrongly, or aren't you a Canadian to boot? (Many Canadians have only a superficial understanding of how laws are written and enforced in the U.S.--just as Americans are usually fairly clueless about the same things regarding Canadian law).

Or are you maintaining that Jack is lying about hiring counsel to guide him in this matter?

Sorry, but it appears to me that you are very much off base in this instance--in line with your stolid defense of Andrew and resistance to anyone or anything that appears contrary to his "report" and its implications.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 22, 2011, 07:45:16 AM
Jack, have you read Andrews report?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: TomT on January 22, 2011, 08:31:37 AM
uhhhhh, let me see if I understand this correctly.

You say it sounds like we are not in compliance and when I ask why, you say it's because I do not follow good practice's?

It's possible that the problem is due to my fading reading comprehension. If you give the girls hardcopy of the IMBRA disclosure, prior to any tour mingling, they sign off aknowledging receipt of same and you have a complete set of signed originals on file, then you are just as meticulous as HRB. In this case, I would not see any compliance issues.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 22, 2011, 09:17:12 AM
Brass,

What I don't get in all this back-and-forth with Jack is why you seem to hold yourself out as more expert at the requirements of IMBRA than an immigration lawyer and the people at Homeland Security, which will (eventually) enforce it?

Do I remember wrongly, or aren't you a Canadian to boot? (Many Canadians have only a superficial understanding of how laws are written and enforced in the U.S.--just as Americans are usually fairly clueless about the same things regarding Canadian law).

Or are you maintaining that Jack is lying about hiring counsel to guide him in this matter?

Sorry, but it appears to me that you are very much off base in this instance--in line with your stolid defense of Andrew and resistance to anyone or anything that appears contrary to his "report" and its implications.

If your not getting all this back and forth then read and learn if you're unsure. Your attempt to interject yourself into the discussion by questioning my intelligence, asking false flag questions like "Or are you maintaining that Jack is lying about hiring counsel to guide him in this matter?", or trying to segue our (Jack and myself) discussion back into an attack of Andrew is somewhat juvenile, David.

Contributing to the discussion is always welcomed, however, Shush, the adults are talking now comes to mind when you post this kind of message.

Brass





Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 22, 2011, 09:50:37 AM
Quote from: nunya
Brass, at no time was I, or have I, felt a need to defend my business model. Your statement that I am trying to defend my business model is not correct.
Well that's a matter of opinion, I suppose.
Wellll duhhhh!   You suppose?
It certainly is someone's opinion.
We certainly know it is your expressed opinion, unless you can show me anywhere I indicated I was defending my business model, which of course you can't.

Well again, it was you who lifted my quote and answered to it so hey, whatever makes you feel better about it.

Quote from: nunya
Jack said...
Nawww Brass, nothing twigged me to answer it,...unless of course it's another one of those things you were lead to believe.   

So my quote and your answer to it just magicly appeared under your username?...Gremlins in the database or what?  :chuckle:

Quote from: nunya
Jack said...
Well, that's all we need to hear!  Anything that leads YOU to believe something then it MUST be the case.  Good example as to the many things you were lead to believe in your post number 373.  .

Refer to answers above. :chuckle:


Brass
 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Turboguy on January 22, 2011, 10:03:18 AM
Maybe TG can shed some light on it?

I have just started reading some of the recent posts but having been to three big agency "socials" and going on one of Jack's tours and attending four of Jack's "parties", there is a night and day difference between the two concepts. 

Perhaps Jack calls his "parties" and the big agencies call theirs "socials" and perhaps that is just Jack's way of differentiating the two which he should do because they are very different.  If the socials didn't exist, I think he could call his socials just as easily but they do and they are very different so I think Jack is wise in trying to use a different term.  They are a world apart in how they work. 

Contributing to the discussion is always welcomed, however, Shush, the adults are talking now comes to mind when you post this kind of message.

Brass

Brass, this wasn't one of your better posts.  You come off like you are trying to say you have a right to say who can and can't participate in a discussion.  I am sure you didn't mean it that way.  He raised some valid points and just answering them would have been a better way to deal with it. 





[/quote]
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 22, 2011, 10:50:10 AM
Maybe TG can shed some light on it?
I have just started reading some of the recent posts but having been to three big agency "socials" and going on one of Jack's tours and attending four of Jack's "parties", there is a night and day difference between the two concepts. 
Perhaps Jack calls his "parties" and the big agencies call theirs "socials" and perhaps that is just Jack's way of differentiating the two which he should do because they are very different.  If the socials didn't exist, I think he could call his socials just as easily but they do and they are very different so I think Jack is wise in trying to use a different term.  They are a world apart in how they work. 

Thanks Ray for the insight. You state that they, meaning the socials/parties are a world apart, but is that not in reference to the logistics or even the atmosphere (maybe better run parties, nicer ladies etc.)?

I don't want to split hairs - Jack has the absolute right to market his get togethers any way he wishes but the concept - men and women getting together for social discourse?...the venues - hotel, ballroom, dining hall etc., are they not similar?...the purpose - meet a potential mate/spouse, opportunity to do a little see what's out there in terms of a possible relationship, identical?

[edit:] In otherwords; Is Jack insisting that he holds parties vice socials a moot point, they're both get togethers, after all?

Contributing to the discussion is always welcomed, however, Shush, the adults are talking now comes to mind when you post this kind of message.
Brass, this wasn't one of your better posts.  You come off like you are trying to say you have a right to say who can and can't participate in a discussion.  I am sure you didn't mean it that way.  He raised some valid points and just answering them would have been a better way to deal with it.

No Ray, I'm not. What I'm saying is David posting messages/questions disparaging my intelligence, expertise or experience, that I may be clueless on US matters because I'm Canadian, that I'm somehow calling Jack a liar or that I'm off base is actually inferring that I'm the one who can't participate in a discussion.

With respect, he did not raise any valid points. David continues (along with others) to attempt disruption by intimating, because Jack and I have entered into a fairly detailed discussion, I'm now somehow holding myself out as "more of an expert" than lawyers or government departments - I (or any other member here) are not obliged to answer to such outlandish remarks.

Brass
 





[/quote]
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: dbneeley on January 22, 2011, 11:11:48 AM
Brass,

In what way was my inquiry "questioning your intelligence"?

My remark that many Canadians don't truly understand American jurisprudence has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence...just as my remark about many Americans not being very knowledgeable about Canadian jurisprudence has anything to do with their intelligence, either. It's simply that you have not grown up under the system. Often, it is tempting to try to draw parallels in your mind to what you know first hand--and that is not a reliable guide in every case.

Even within one system, quite often the interpretation of law may seem strange or convoluted to the layman at times. Again, it has nothing to do with intelligence. If being intelligent were all that is required, law schools could take far less than the three years or so they presently require. In fact, just about any law school professor will tell you their biggest and first challenge is to train students to "think like a lawyer." I can assure you, when I was in law school there was no lack of intelligence in our class on the first day--but it still took each of them three years to complete the program, and they were far different coming out than going in.

My primary question you ignored, as usual, in your hurry to disparage me. I'll repeat:

You have said that Jack is not in compliance with IMBRA, event though an actual American Immigration attorney is advising him, and even though they have consulted with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, which has the charge of implementing and enforcing the law.

Since the attorney and Homeland Security apparently think they are in compliance, while you are claiming he is not--in what way, precisely, are you *not* holding yourself out as some sort of expert in interpreting the law that his licensed and practicing attorney and the people at Homeland Security may be missing?

I believe that is completely on point to the discussion, and would be seen to be so by any fair-minded observer. However, to you I am "injecting myself into the discussion"--which, apparently in your world, is a no-no. If you want to have a discussion solely between you and Jack, I suggest having it via email or PM on this site would be worthwhile. Otherwise, being a forum and all, you should expect others to contribute.

The only other alternative I could see to your continuing to take the tack that you have--that Jack is not in compliance with the law--must logically be that you don't believe he has in fact consulted with knowledgeable professionals who actually *know* and not *guess* how the law is to be interpreted and enforced.

I cannot see any other alternative.

I don't believe your brain is defective, although you seem to have some anger issues that mean you don't always read so carefully...and, I think, this is one of those times.

So which is it--do you claim superior understanding of the American law and how the agency itself is interpreting its requirements (and thus the lawyer and Homeland Security are wrong), or do you question whether Jack has actually done as he has said?

Or, of course, are you willing to grant that Jack is, in fact, in compliance with the demands of the law?

Of course, if past experience is any guide, you will once again simply attempt to attack me rather than address the question. I leave it to others reading this thread to determine whether the question is a reasonable one in light of the prior posts and is, in fact, on topic. We already know Turbo's opinion.

David
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 22, 2011, 11:51:56 AM

Good, good, I'm glad you were able to see for yourself that I have indicated for many years that we have parties, not socials. Hopefully you won't make that mistake again.

Not a mistake Jack. I don't want to needlessly antagonize you by calling your parties socials but just because you've termed your get togethers as "parties" does not mean I necassarily agree with your definition or am required to abide with your marketing stategy regarding same. As I mentioned to Ray, it's more of a half dozen eggs in one basket, six in the other basket type of thing. But if it's "party" you want,  party it shall be. ;)

Brass
What you don't state is the difference.
I don't state what some of the difference's are?  Are you sure about that Brass?  In no previous post's here I have never stated some of the differences?

I think I have written on this before, I think you are mistaken or didn't look, but if your saying you couldn't find where I have discussed it, and I don't have the time right now to go back and look, I'll take your word for it.

Ok, so what are some of the difference's? 

Brass, not that I want to make a habit out of this, one should be able to find and prove out these things on their own, but I'll go to my website and go to the group tour section and pull out some of that information.   

Here are some of the difference's.


No other company or agency puts in the time and effort that we do for each of the men attending

If you are thinking of just hopping on a plane, going to three socials and meeting a lot of pretty young girls and choosing your wife from one of the girls at these three socials, then our group tour is not for you.

Having personally attended several of the larger socials during my own pursuit, I have seen what I consider the good, the bad and the ugly that these socials have to offer, and as such, we have taken the good, made it even better, got rid of the bad and the ugly (as we perceived it), and have created an efficient event and environment that we think is just as fun and rewarding for the men, as it is for the special ladies who are attending.

Today these same agencies are averaging half of what they used to draw, and one of the original agencies to do large group tours has stopped doing group tours all together,...why? Because, in my opinion, the truth about many of these socials has gotten out! Men, mostly thanks to the Internet, have become more aware of what is going on. With many of today's bigger companies that sponsor socials you basically have two types of ladies who attend; the women who attend social after social after social, (many of which I call social scammers, working girls and party girls) and who could make up probably over 80% of the women in attendance, and the sincere ladies who are attending for the first, and LAST time. Many sincere ladies attending for the first time are so disgusted by what they see that I have seen many good ladies walking out of socials early in tears. So many young, beautiful girls who are dressed very seductively and who aggressively seek any and all men. These are not your typical Russian ladies! Young girls who latch onto any man of 45, 55 or 65 years of age (preferably those with diamond rings, Rolex watches, gold necklaces), holding onto his arm, not wanting to ever let him go, staring into his eyes making this man think he has luckily meet his future dream bride. So young, so beautiful and sensual are these women, that many of these men think the stories they have read and heard from some of these bigger agencies about Russian ladies preferring older men are true and how lucky they are to have met their young beautiful bride. "Two hundred women here and somehow my dream bride finds me, and so quickly", he convinces himself. It is the goal of each one of these social scammer women and professional daters to keep this man occupied for that evening, and the next two days if possible, keeping him away from the other socials and other ladies, even if that means screwing his brains out that first night. If she can manage this, and many of these women are quite good and successful at this, she will now have this man to herself for the remainder of the week. During this time she will acquire new clothes, purse, cell phone, shoes, things for her flat, spending money, etc. When these good, sincere ladies who show up for the first time to these big socials see what is going on, and how these social scammers, party girls, working women aggressively go after the guys attending, and how very few of the men pay any attention to the sincere ladies, many of these good ladies get up and leave, promising to never attend such a function again and in the process telling other good ladies of what is taking place. And these ladies tell other ladies who tell other ladies. Today it is getting harder and harder to find good, sincere ladies to attend many of these bigger socials and as a result the percentage of social scammers attending steadily increases. The word "socials" in my opinion is getting such a bad reputation and black eye with so many ladies in Ukraine and Russia today that I do not want to even use the word social in association with our group tours. So I have replaced the word social for party. Maybe the word party is not as professional sounding as the word social once was, but if I use the word social it will certainly affect the caliber of ladies we are trying to have attend our functions.

Ask almost any man who has attended some of these bigger socials and he will probably tell you what I am saying here is the truth, word for word. In my opinion these socials put on by most the larger tour providers have seen there better days as the word has gotten out about the majority of type of women to be found there. Look at how many good references some of these big agencies have of men who can talk good about the socials, who recommend the socials. Please, check with some of the men who have attended our group tours. With great pride we offer you the opportunity to talk to men who have been part of our group tours. Many of our clients have also attended one or more of the big socials and listen to their opinions as to the difference's between our parties and the socials. I personally work very hard with each of these men for 2-3-4 months prior to each trip to help him have the most efficient trip possible. And not all ladies are met just at the parties. The many private meetings that the men work hard for are just as important as the parties.

Women are not allowed just to walk in off the street and attend. At our parties we have free champagne, wine, juice, food and snacks, not just for the ladies, but for the men also. There is of course a bar and bartender for those who prefer soft drinks, mixed drinks and beer. Good music, plenty of dancing, and we have various contest's, prizes to give away and a few games that we play which help to liven things up and allows for everyone to know others better. For the first couple of hours we will keep the men moving to different tables, as Russian ladies for the most part are somewhat shy. Usually men will be at a table with his interpreter and four or five nice ladies for about 12 minutes. During this time you talk to the ladies, see which ladies you may have an interest to get to know better. We have found that this is the best way to have the men meet many wonderful ladies in a short period who interest them. Each man will have his own interpreter and his interpreter can help him to set meetings with the ladies. The last few hours of the parties, when the dancing begins, we just let mother nature take it's course.

We provide interpreters at all our parties, one interpreter per man. Unlike the interpreters in the past who have worked for some of the bigger social companies, we pay our interpreters for their services. I have heard, and had a few interpreters to verify to me, that the interpreters who have attend some socials for some of the larger companies are invited to attend but are not paid anything. They are told that if they work as an interpreter that they will have the opportunity to meet many foreign men who are interested in marriage to a Russian woman. Now correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't this seem like a conflict of interest if I have an interpreter who is working for me, trying to help me with a lady I have interest in, when the interpreter might have an interest in me! I would wonder what exactly she is telling the lady I have interest in? It has happened in the past and it will happen again where an interpreter who is interested in a man for herself will deliberately sabotage a potential relationship. Our interpreters are told of our strict code of conduct. They are not allowed to date or be involved with any of the men until the last party in that city is over and they cannot be an interpreter for any man they might have interest in. If we see or find out otherwise, we will not use this lady as an interpreter again. I am happy to say that since we started this practice six years ago I believe some of the other agencies have changed their policy about their interpreters, closely following the guidelines and standards we have set.

I asked, you answered and I appreciate that. My reply is simply this is a good rundown as to how you go about holding the parties. However, all the agencies advertise 'our way is the best way' and that's understandable. Certainly, marketing, how your clients view the parties and customer satsfaction figure though (iphone vs. cell phone etc. ).

Brass



 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 22, 2011, 12:02:15 PM
Brass,

In what way was my inquiry "questioning your intelligence"?

My remark that many Canadians don't truly understand American jurisprudence has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence...just as my remark about many Americans not being very knowledgeable about Canadian jurisprudence has anything to do with their intelligence, either. It's simply that you have not grown up under the system. Often, it is tempting to try to draw parallels in your mind to what you know first hand--and that is not a reliable guide in every case.

Even within one system, quite often the interpretation of law may seem strange or convoluted to the layman at times. Again, it has nothing to do with intelligence. If being intelligent were all that is required, law schools could take far less than the three years or so they presently require. In fact, just about any law school professor will tell you their biggest and first challenge is to train students to "think like a lawyer." I can assure you, when I was in law school there was no lack of intelligence in our class on the first day--but it still took each of them three years to complete the program, and they were far different coming out than going in.

My primary question you ignored, as usual, in your hurry to disparage me. I'll repeat:

You have said that Jack is not in compliance with IMBRA, event though an actual American Immigration attorney is advising him, and even though they have consulted with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, which has the charge of implementing and enforcing the law.

Since the attorney and Homeland Security apparently think they are in compliance, while you are claiming he is not--in what way, precisely, are you *not* holding yourself out as some sort of expert in interpreting the law that his licensed and practicing attorney and the people at Homeland Security may be missing?

I believe that is completely on point to the discussion, and would be seen to be so by any fair-minded observer. However, to you I am "injecting myself into the discussion"--which, apparently in your world, is a no-no. If you want to have a discussion solely between you and Jack, I suggest having it via email or PM on this site would be worthwhile. Otherwise, being a forum and all, you should expect others to contribute.

The only other alternative I could see to your continuing to take the tack that you have--that Jack is not in compliance with the law--must logically be that you don't believe he has in fact consulted with knowledgeable professionals who actually *know* and not *guess* how the law is to be interpreted and enforced.

I cannot see any other alternative.

I don't believe your brain is defective, although you seem to have some anger issues that mean you don't always read so carefully...and, I think, this is one of those times.

So which is it--do you claim superior understanding of the American law and how the agency itself is interpreting its requirements (and thus the lawyer and Homeland Security are wrong), or do you question whether Jack has actually done as he has said?

Or, of course, are you willing to grant that Jack is, in fact, in compliance with the demands of the law?

Of course, if past experience is any guide, you will once again simply attempt to attack me rather than address the question. I leave it to others reading this thread to determine whether the question is a reasonable one in light of the prior posts and is, in fact, on topic. We already know Turbo's opinion.

David

David, you've got your opening for this, your particular brand of trolling here on this topic, enjoy it. I just don't have the time or inclination to refute your incorrect assertions right now. Which of course your post is designed to do- disrupt this topic.

Please refer to my answer to Turbo regarding your posts or my earlier responses in the Off Top thread.

Thanks

Brass
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Turboguy on January 22, 2011, 12:29:31 PM
Thanks Ray for the insight. You state that they, meaning the socials/parties are a world apart, but is that not in reference to the logistics or even the atmosphere (maybe better run parties, nicer ladies etc.)?


No, as far as the atmosphere or lets say the facility, they are similar.  As far as better run in terms of entertainment, refreshments they are similar, maybe even the big agencies might have the edge but if so it is an awful small edge.  Nicer Ladies?  In what way?  As far as the attractiveness they are probably pretty close.  As far as the sincerity there is a major difference.  I will say more below.

I don't want to split hairs - Jack has the absolute right to market his get togethers any way he wishes but the concept - men and women getting together for social discourse?...the venues - hotel, ballroom, dining hall etc., are they not similar?...the purpose - meet a potential mate/spouse, opportunity to do a little see what's out there in terms of a possible relationship, identical?
In otherwords; Is Jack insisting that he holds parties vice socials a moot point, they're both get togethers, after all?


Are they not similar?   Well yes, some could say they are the same thing just as you could say Elena's and Anastasia are similar or the same.  We all know they are not however and Jack's parties are not similar or the same as the big agency ones.

The biggest difference that has a real impact is how the woman are recruited.  With the big agencies, they run newspaper ads, the have signs on electric poles, signs in the street and in the hotel inviting women to meet prospective foreign husbands.   If scammers and serial daters were stupid then it might work but they aren't.   They are very smart women and they know there will be a roomfull of very nieve guys making their first trip to the FSU with their pockets full of cash and their heads full of the bull that the big agencys feed the guys.  In other words a room full of farily rich suckers.  It is a scammers dream come true.

The result is that most guys go home thinking they have met this dream girl who want's to come to America and have their babies and devote their lives to putting a smile on their face.  They make a return trip and the gal has them out shopping for $ 500.00 boots before they even get their bags in the hotel room and then is an endless run of $ 300.00 lunches and needing this or that so they are not ashamed to be with their dream guy.  Each night they get a peck on the cheek and their wallet is a lot emptier.   Sooner or later they wake up to the fact she may not be that big a catch and sign up for another tour.

Jack's tour are mostly either women the men have invited or who are sent by a small agency that knows each woman first hand.   There are very few scammers.   That is one very big difference.

The second major difference is the format.  At the big agency sessions the woman are standing around and feel like meat in a butcher shop.  The men pick the women they want to talk to and talk to them for 15 minutes or so.  At the end of the night they pick the one they want to go to dinner with and invite them.  It is always a yes unless she has already committed to another guy.  The smoking hot women are always busy.  The sincere but not as attractive ladies may stand around all night and not talk to anyone. 

At Jacks parties, the men have a table and sit with 5-6 women.  Every 15 minutes or so they blow a whistle and the women change tables.  You have a full time interpreter assigned to you.   You let the interpreter know which ones you want to talk to more and after the session you can spend more time with the ones you really like and you can take them out.  The result is every man meets ever woman and every woman meets ever man.  No one ever stands around not talking to anyone.  There is no meat market atmospere. 

When you are not at the party you are meeting women you picked out in advance one on one and usually you meet 2-3 a day that way in addition to the parties. 

As far as the IMBRA compliance it sounds to me like Jack is at least as much in compliance as agencies like Elenas and maybe more so. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Brasscasing on January 23, 2011, 10:43:05 AM
Thanks Ray for the insight. You state that they, meaning the socials/parties are a world apart, but is that not in reference to the logistics or even the atmosphere (maybe better run parties, nicer ladies etc.)?


No, as far as the atmosphere or lets say the facility, they are similar.  As far as better run in terms of entertainment, refreshments they are similar, maybe even the big agencies might have the edge but if so it is an awful small edge.  Nicer Ladies?  In what way?  As far as the attractiveness they are probably pretty close.  As far as the sincerity there is a major difference.  I will say more below.

I don't want to split hairs - Jack has the absolute right to market his get togethers any way he wishes but the concept - men and women getting together for social discourse?...the venues - hotel, ballroom, dining hall etc., are they not similar?...the purpose - meet a potential mate/spouse, opportunity to do a little see what's out there in terms of a possible relationship, identical?
In otherwords; Is Jack insisting that he holds parties vice socials a moot point, they're both get togethers, after all?


Are they not similar?   Well yes, some could say they are the same thing just as you could say Elena's and Anastasia are similar or the same.  We all know they are not however and Jack's parties are not similar or the same as the big agency ones.

The biggest difference that has a real impact is how the woman are recruited.  With the big agencies, they run newspaper ads, the have signs on electric poles, signs in the street and in the hotel inviting women to meet prospective foreign husbands.   If scammers and serial daters were stupid then it might work but they aren't.   They are very smart women and they know there will be a roomfull of very nieve guys making their first trip to the FSU with their pockets full of cash and their heads full of the bull that the big agencys feed the guys.  In other words a room full of farily rich suckers.  It is a scammers dream come true.

The result is that most guys go home thinking they have met this dream girl who want's to come to America and have their babies and devote their lives to putting a smile on their face.  They make a return trip and the gal has them out shopping for $ 500.00 boots before they even get their bags in the hotel room and then is an endless run of $ 300.00 lunches and needing this or that so they are not ashamed to be with their dream guy.  Each night they get a peck on the cheek and their wallet is a lot emptier.   Sooner or later they wake up to the fact she may not be that big a catch and sign up for another tour.

Jack's tour are mostly either women the men have invited or who are sent by a small agency that knows each woman first hand.   There are very few scammers.   That is one very big difference.

The second major difference is the format.  At the big agency sessions the woman are standing around and feel like meat in a butcher shop.  The men pick the women they want to talk to and talk to them for 15 minutes or so.  At the end of the night they pick the one they want to go to dinner with and invite them.  It is always a yes unless she has already committed to another guy.  The smoking hot women are always busy.  The sincere but not as attractive ladies may stand around all night and not talk to anyone. 

At Jacks parties, the men have a table and sit with 5-6 women.  Every 15 minutes or so they blow a whistle and the women change tables.  You have a full time interpreter assigned to you.   You let the interpreter know which ones you want to talk to more and after the session you can spend more time with the ones you really like and you can take them out.  The result is every man meets ever woman and every woman meets ever man.  No one ever stands around not talking to anyone.  There is no meat market atmospere. 

When you are not at the party you are meeting women you picked out in advance one on one and usually you meet 2-3 a day that way in addition to the parties. 

As far as the IMBRA compliance it sounds to me like Jack is at least as much in compliance as agencies like Elenas and maybe more so.

Ray, this is a great post...I think in just a few paragraphs you've clarified more about the 'tour' concept than I've seen posted anywhere in years. I may just sticky your post somewhere for the new guys.  :)

...This large tour operator recruitment process - Billboards, seriously? :chuckle: Are the men on these tours aware of that beforehand-In otherwords what exactly are the men told about the women they are about to meet?

Yeah, I'm not going to (nor was it ever my intention) to get wrapped around the axles about 'party' or 'social'. It's Jack's tour, he can call them anything he wants.

Brass
Title: Part 2 The semi-complete marketing piece
Post by: ECR844 on January 23, 2011, 06:41:43 PM
Part 2.....

Are all participants in the Russian bride business really criminals?

According to Andrew Wilson they are.... One would have thought he'd have learned his lesson from the first round but look on the title page. What do we find? Further pronouncements and attempts to make that statement accepted. Surprise...Surprise...Surprise

Before our resident seedy Internet Marketer breaks out the 'only criminal's get fingerprinted' line. Let's cut the bull sh it and say up front we know lots of other folks get fingerprinted for lots of legal and justified reasons. Including our very own seedy internet marketer.

Let's not allow our resident scaremonger to go ahead and ramp up the ' manufactured fear' so he can use it to part you from your currency. Shall we?

I'm curious Andrew how does one bring a corpse who's been dismembered and the different organs put into 'canopic' jars become viable again?

Oh, right. What we have is a poor attempt at morphing your descriptive style from a 'post mortem' to a metaphorical resuscitation scenario... I wonder who will be supplying the equipment and expertise for this extraordinary exercise?  By the way, did you get permission from Mary Shelley, Universal pictures or any of the other 43+ movie and production companies to use their intellectual property; or did you steal it outright and use illegally on purpose?

Once again although the writing style has improved slightly the author falls short of a coherent integrated written work. Once again stylistically the read is studded with hyperbole, stylistic issues and barely researched. This is surprising to say the least, especially since the author has been 'educated' critically by a variety of posters and give tips on how he may improve the content and flow of his work. Criticism and input which has (I'm being generous when I say this next part) sporadically implemented.

All in all not worth the whole 5 mins it took to read at all. 
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: andrewfi on January 24, 2011, 07:10:07 AM
Eric, you are a fun kinda guy.

Thanks for being an early reader of Life After Death.

You know what you have achieved with your post above?
You managed to write 322 words without once dealing with the content.
You managed to write 322 worthless words.

You sir, are a prince! :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: ECR844 on January 24, 2011, 08:16:25 AM
Eric, you are a fun kinda guy.

Thanks for being an early reader of Life After Death.

You know what you have achieved with your post above?
You managed to write 322 words without once dealing with the content.
You managed to write 322 worthless words.

You sir, are a prince! :ROFL:

Well, I unlike you didn't fill 17 pages with regurgitated content and the ideas of entrepreneurs and creative writers far more skilled than a [insults removed].

But that's fine. If you'd like to discuss content. Let's do that.
What do we have.
Title page
A stolen image from the internet of a skeleton with a wedding veil.
A false statement that everyone in the pursuit and every service provider who helps their clients is a criminal.

The remaining 17 pages.

A very poor attempt to tie in to your story line from the previous piece.
By page 2 a reversal in your metaphorical concept from an autopsy to a resuscitation
Stolen idea and concept from various movie and production companies as well as the writer Mary Shelly
A vague conceptual roll out of the idea that yourself and your partners would morph the facebook, Amazon, Etailer consolidation concept into a hybrid model for the IMB's.
An ancillary consulting service on world wide legal and consulting issues related to the IMB.
You stole the 'e-tailer' idea from facebook and others by putting your 'women as a market-commodity' theorem another step closer to reality and marketing the 'virtual gifts' concept in relation to people and as a revenue source; add adsense part deux ....Again...
The piece contained a lot of hyperbole, hype, fear mongering, sensationalism.
There once again was a dearth of fact.
At least this time you didn't try to cloak your advertorial as a 'research or analysis piece'.
A dearth of actual facts and data.
Lot's of links to the forum here and R W D reminiscent of Dan's e-book attempt.
Failed to deliver on a tie in to the next part and or a cohesive ending.
Once again another embarrassment for you and your oft self-touted prowess at business and analysis.

That was the content of your 2nd marketing piece or lack there of as the case actually is.
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 24, 2011, 10:07:44 AM
The discussion about part two is here guys: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13520.msg193178.html#msg193178

The associated members-only discussion containing all the usual insults, off topic banter, speculation, armchair lawyers and conspiracy theories is here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13363.0.html
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Eduard on January 28, 2011, 08:57:30 PM
Not to destruct you guys from your discussion, but as I was reading this thread I saw a very cute 29 yo girl on the ad to the right and my finger happened to click on the link (completely uncontrollable and independent from the rest of my body, I might add).   http://www.cuteonly.com/photos/17/1/8b/amazing-girl-elena-from-russia-1.html
Now this beautiful 29 year old is open to marrying men who's age is up to 62 years old! So how can the MOB business be dead when agencies like cuteonly (that's where she's listed) can help WM dudes in their sixties connect with beauties like her who are in their 20s?
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: msmoby on January 29, 2011, 09:48:11 AM
The discussion about part two is here guys: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13520.msg193178.html#msg193178

The associated members-only discussion containing all the usual insults, off topic banter, speculation, armchair lawyers and conspiracy theories is here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13363.0.html

And WHERE would one find the valid critique that was blitzed so indiscriminately  ???
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: msmoby on January 29, 2011, 09:54:31 AM
Lots of guys posted quite pertinent and well-reasoned critique  which was quite unfairly deleted and referred to as 'trolling / off-topic'
Title: Re: The Russian Bride Business is Dead! The Report: Death of the Russian Bride
Post by: Manny on January 29, 2011, 10:18:11 AM
Part one is now done with.

The discussion about part two is here guys: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13520.msg193178.html#msg193178

The associated members-only discussion containing all the usual insults, off topic banter, speculation, armchair lawyers and conspiracy theories is here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13363.0.html