It not only IMBRA that is going to put agencies out of business. Congress is using the IRS to help.
I haven't posted here in months or lurked either. I am here on account of Andrew's email notification of the MOB industry.
I'll say this and go. It isn't just the MOB industry being affected by the new IRS ruling it also affects those in the gold industry as well. Issuing 1099s on everyone buying or selling a gold coin is going to put a real damper on my industry. People turn to gold because they do not trust the government. The last thing they want is for the god damned IRS to have their gold purchases filed in a IRS file in their name. Or to tip off the IRS that they might have a gold stash that they liquidate from time to time. And of course it's not just these two industries that are affected by this. It is everyone who buys and sells. When this takes affect on January 1st 2012 I expect a complete damper of business in America. Did you know that a certain sum of money and above being wired out of the US will not be allowed unless first the owner of those funds proves he has paid the taxes on them? Can't even get a foreign bank account unless you notify the Department of Treasury (IRS). Where is our freedom with all these capital controls? America is going down.
Adios
Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?
So you mean: I can use the addresses in the "database" for some other purposes?Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?
Because that is how I want to do it.
This is not the only place that has an interest in the 'mail order bride' business.
Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?
Because that is how I want to do it.
This is not the only place that has an interest in the 'mail order bride' business.
I am currently working on finding the right solution. Something that will take the good and augment it amplify it and replace your revenue stream......There's more but you get the picture from the above.
I'm also glad I could assist you and "Manny" with retreading a path others have already tread on your joint project and venture in internet marketing. I'll be reading your text and will be happy to post thoughts and engage in discourse if you're capable of it. Thanks for taking the time to post your marketing adventure and research project. Interestingly enough had another member done so there would have been howls of 'self-promotion' etc..
I'm also glad I could assist you and "Manny" with retreading a path others have already tread on your joint project and venture in internet marketing. I'll be reading your text and will be happy to post thoughts and engage in discourse if you're capable of it. Thanks for taking the time to post your marketing adventure and research project. Interestingly enough had another member done so there would have been howls of 'self-promotion' etc..
Eric, just to clarify, this is not a "joint project" as I am not an author of this report; Andrew is. I haven't done the work and the research; Andrew has. How he chooses to distribute what is his document is up to him. Questions and discussion on the subject is most welcome and indeed invited.
Thank you for your opinions on the actual report above.
May I just quickly interject? : Andrew, you handsome devil! :biggrin:
May I just quickly interject? : Andrew, you handsome devil! :biggrin:
Alright, although I did initially receive an error message last night, I downloaded the report this a.m. my time without a problem - no (much discussed) virus', spam or security issues and trust me if I can do it, anyone can. :chuckle:
Brass
interesting read.well put, Neo. Maybe business will pick up for a guy like me (translator, wingman, adviser, consultant, logistics coordinator) who deals in reality rather than fantasy and who actually provides value and the results desired.
personally i think anything that puts HRB/RLM + AWEB and all the other letter/chat trading sites out of business can only be a good thing. they have cynically used IMBRA regs to their advantage to proclude people from exchanging their personal information in order to continue to propogate their desire to extract maximum revenues out of a highly margined low cost communication pyramid scheme. The fact their customers will now be required to get printed/checked removes at source the vast majority of keyboard romeos who prop up their incredibly cynical business model that isn't in any way focused on delivering successful outcomes for either man or woman.
Removing the "broker" element from all these relationships is a good thing - agencies need to go back to what they should be doing which is providing travel support services, translation and other services that are ancillary to the outcome of a relationship. Any business that has a vested interest in not seeing a positive outcome i.e making money from the journey not the destination is something that should be dealt with.
Legitimate agencies in local cities could easily work around these rules if it suited them - simply have all the girls post their profiles to a facebook group i.e "single Kiev Girls Looking for Love" and let direct communication between both parties ensue, then generate income from ancillary services providing translation, english lessons, apartments, transfers etc and all the stuff agencies used to do before the primary motivation became a dollars per letter / chat minute business.
This was ALWAYS a niche business for the genuine men/women involved, it was the cynical attempts of a few people to turn it into a megacorp cash generator with a low cost of product high margin that the rot set in, I definately agree with the appraisal that the industry has brought this situation to their own door. Unfortunately I know of many second/third generation matchmakers put out of business due to their refusal to comply with the suspect business practices of such letter factories and the willingness of shady businesspeople to set up in such places merely to facilitate them.
Countless heartache/tears has been generated by both men and woman due to the practices of these large operators and they have brought the whole thing into disrepute, the sooner they are put out to pasture the better.
What's your opinion-review of the material?
Muzh, given that a large part of the MOB business is paid for by people spending dollars it does not matter over much about jurisdiction. As you will have read, there are close analogies with another on-line business. The principal of extra territoriality is soon sacrificed on the altar of the 'mighty dollar'!
Muzh, given that a large part of the MOB business is paid for by people spending dollars it does not matter over much about jurisdiction. As you will have read, there are close analogies with another on-line business. The principal of extra territoriality is soon sacrificed on the altar of the 'mighty dollar'!
Oh, I would not dismiss this little issue of jurisdiction because of the all mighty dollar. The last I saw out the window we still have an independent judicial system, f**cked up, but independent. It actually boils down to someone with cojones gigantescos or crazy enough to issue a legal challenge regarding this little issue of jurisdiction.
Muzh, given that a large part of the MOB business is paid for by people spending dollars it does not matter over much about jurisdiction. As you will have read, there are close analogies with another on-line business. The principal of extra territoriality is soon sacrificed on the altar of the 'mighty dollar'!
Oh, I would not dismiss this little issue of jurisdiction because of the all mighty dollar. The last I saw out the window we still have an independent judicial system, f**cked up, but independent. It actually boils down to someone with cojones gigantescos or crazy enough to issue a legal challenge regarding this little issue of jurisdiction.
Hmmm... Ask just how well that worked out for some senior managers of some other online businesses that aroused the ire of US legislators and interest groups. A few of those guys kinda wish they did not have to land in the USA.
Oh, I would not dismiss this little issue of jurisdiction because of the all mighty dollar. The last I saw out the window we still have an independent judicial system, f**cked up, but independent. It actually boils down to someone with cojones gigantescos or crazy enough to issue a legal challenge regarding this little issue of jurisdiction.
Does IMBRA apply to agencies outside the US?
Thanks Andrew it works now... I'll report back.
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times
Prevalence of Domestic Violence
Immigrants
* A recent study in New York City found that 51 percent of intimate partner homicide victims were foreign-born, while 45 percent were born in the United States.
New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, Femicide in New York City: 1995-2002 (2004), available at http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/ip/femicide1995-2002_report.pdf
* 48% of Latinas in one study reported that their partner's violence against them had increased since they emmigrated to the United States.
Mary Dutton et al., Characteristics of Help-Seeking Behaviors, Resources, and Services Needs of Battered Immigrant Latinas: Legal and Policy Implications, 7 Geo. J. on Poverty L. and Pol'y 245 (2000).
* A survey of immigrant Korean women found that 60 percent had been battered by their husbands.
Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm
* Married immigrant women experience higher levels of physical and sexual abuse than unmarried immigrant women, 59.5 percent compared to 49.8 percent, respectively.
Mary Dutton et al., Characteristics of Help-Seeking Behaviors, Resources, and Services Needs of Battered Immigrant Latinas: Legal and Policy Implications, 7 Geo. J. on Poverty L. and Pol'y 245 (2000).
See also, Family Violence Prevention Fund, The Facts on Immigrant Women and Domestic Violence (2006), http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/Immigrant.pdf
Teens
* 18-24 year-olds comprised only 11.7% of the population in 1998 and 2002, but were the majority of victims of violence committed by a boyfriend or girlfriend (42%).
Matthew R. Durose et al., U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 207846, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Family Violence Statistics: Including Statistics on Strangers and Acquaintances, at 11 (2005), available at http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fvs.pdf
* Approximately one in five female high school students reports being physically and/or sexually abused by a dating partner.
Jay G. Silverman et al., Dating Violence Against Adolescent Girls and Associated Substance Use, Unhealthy Weight Control, Sexual Risk Behavior, Pregnancy, and Suicidality, 286 J. Am. Med. Ass'n 572-579 (2001).
* In a study of eighth and ninth graders, 25 percent indicated that they had been victims of dating violence, including eight percent who disclosed being sexually abused.
Vangie A. Foshee et al., The Safe Date Project: Theoretical Basis, Evaluation Design, and Selected Baseline Findings, 12 Am. J. of Preventive Med. 39 (1996).
* In a survey of 232 high school girls, 17.8% of the participants indicated that they had been forced to engage in sexual activity against their will by a dating partner.
David R. Jezl, Christian E. Molidor & Tracy L. Wright, Physical, Sexual & Psychological Abuse in High School Dating Relationships: Prevalence Rates and Self-esteem Issues, 13 Child & Adolescent Soc. Work J. 69 (1996).
* Among female students between the ages of 15-20 who reported at least one violent act during a dating relationship, 24% reported experiencing extremely violent incidents such as rape or the use of weapons against them.
P.Y. Symons et al., Prevalence and Predictors of Adolescent Dating Violence, 7 J. of Child & Adolescent Pediatric Nursing 14 (1994).
* Girls who reported that they had been sexually or physically abused were more than twice as likely as non abused girls to report smoking (26% versus 10%), drinking (22% versus 12%), and using illegal drugs (30% versus 13%). In addition, 32 percent of girls who had been abused reported bingeing and purging, compared to 12 percent of girls who had not been abused.
Cathy Schoen et al., The Commonwealth Fund, The Commonwealth Fund Survey of the Health of Adolescent Girls (1997).
* In a study of 724 adolescent mothers between the ages of 12-18, one of every eight pregnant adolescents reported having been physically assaulted by the father of her baby during the preceding 12 months. Of these, 40 percent also reported experiencing violence at the hands of a family member or relative.
Constance M. Wiemann et al., Pregnant Adolescents: Experiences and Behaviors Associated with Physical Assault by an Intimate Partner, 4 Maternal & Child Health J. 93 (2000).
* Physical aggression occurs in 1 in 3 teen dating relationships.
Sarah Avery-Leaf & Michele Cascardi, Dating Violence Education: Prevention and Early Intervention Strategies, in Preventing Violence in Relationships 82 (Paul A. Schewe ed., 2002).
* Fifty to eighty percent of teens report knowing someone involved in a violent relationship.
Maura O'Keefe & Laura Trester, Victims of Dating Violence Among High School Students, 4 Violence Against Women 195 (1998).
See also Family Violence Prevention Fund, The Facts on Teenagers and Intimate Partner Violence, http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/Teenagers.pdf (2006); and National Center for Victims of Crime, Teen Dating Violence Sheet, http://www.ncvc.org/dvrc (2004).
Elders
* According to the best available estimates, between 1 and 2 million Americans age 65 or older have been injured, exploited, or otherwise mistreated by someone on whom they depended for protection.
Committee on Nat'l Statistics & Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education, Elder Mistreatment: Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation in an Aging America (Richard J. Bonnie & Robert B. Wallace eds., 2003).
* Estimates of the frequency of elder abuse range from 2% to 10% based on various sampling, survey methods, and case definitions.
Mark S. Lachs & Karl Pillemer, Elder Abuse, 364 The Lancet 1192 (2004).
* Data on elder abuse in domestic settings suggest that 1 in 14 incidents, excluding incidents of self-neglect, come to the attention of authorities.
Karl Pillemer & David Finkelhor, The Prevalence of Elder Abuse: A Random Sample Survey, 28 The Gerontologist 51 (1988).
* Current estimates put the overall reporting of financial exploitation at only 1 in 25 cases, suggesting that there may be at least 5 million financial abuse victims each year.
John F. Wasik, The Fleecing of America's Elderly, Consumers Digest, March/April 2000.
* It is estimated that for every one case of elder abuse, neglect, exploitation, or self neglect reported to authorities, about five more go unreported.
National Ctr. on Elder Abuse, The Am. Pub. Hum. Serv. Ass'n, The National Elder Abuse Incidence Study (1998), available at www.aoa.gov/eldfam/Elder_Rights/Elder_Abuse/ABuseReport_Full.pdf
* In 1996, nearly 450,000 adults aged 60 and over were abused and/or neglected in domestic settings. Factoring in self neglect, the total number of incidents was approximately 551,000.
National Ctr. on Elder Abuse, The Am. Pub. Hum. Serv. Ass'n, The National Elder Abuse Incidence Study (1998), available at www.aoa.gov/eldfam/Elder_Rights/Elder_Abuse/ABuseReport_Full.pdf
* A University of Iowa study based on 1999 data found 190,005 domestic elder abuse reports from 17 states; 242,430 domestic elder abuse investigations from 47 states; and 102,879 substantiations from 35 states. Significantly higher investigation rates were found for states that require mandatory reporting and tracking of reports.
Gerald J. Jogerst et al., Domestic Elder Abuse and the Law, 93 Am. J. of Pub. Health 2131 (2003).
* In 2000, states were asked to indicate the number of elder/adult reports received in the most recent year for which data were available. Based on figures from 54 states, the total number of reports was 472,813.
Pamela B. Teaster, The Nat'l Ctr. On Elder Abuse, et al., A Response to the Abuse of Vulnerable Adults: The 2000 Survey of State Adult Protective Services (2003).
* In 2003, state Long Term Care Ombudsman programs nationally investigated 20,673 complaints of abuse gross neglect, and exploitation on behalf of nursing home and board and care residents. Among seven types of abuse categories, physical abuse was the most common type reported.
U.S. Admin. on Aging, National Ombudsman Reporting System Data Tables (2003).
See also Nat'l Ctr. on Elder Abuse, Fact Sheet: Elder Abuse Prevalence and Incidence, http://www.elderabusecenter.org/pdf/publication/FinalStatistics050331.pdf (2005).
Same-Sex Violence
Domestic violence occurs within same-sex relationships as it does in heterosexual relationships. The acronym LGBT is often used and stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender.
* 11% of lesbians reported violence by their female partner and 15% of gay men who had lived with a male partner reported being victimized by a male partner.
Patricia Tjaden, Symposium on Integrating Responses to Domestic Violence: Extent and Nature of Intimate Partner Violence as measured by the National Violence Against Women Survey, 47 Loy. L. Rev. 41, 54 (2003).
* Of the LGBT victims who sought services from the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project, 36% of clients in 2003 and 38% of clients in 2004 filed police reports regarding intimate partner violence.
Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 6 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.
* Eighty-eight percent of victims in 2003 and 91 percent of victims in 2004 reported experiencing prior incidents of abuse, with the majority (45 percent and 47 percent, respectively) reporting having experienced more than 10 prior incidents.
Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.
* One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime.
Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm
* 15.4% of same-sex cohabiting men reported being raped, physically assaulted and/or stalked by a male partner, but 10.8% reported such violence by a female partner.
Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm
According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs:
* 6,523 incidence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender violence were recorded in eleven distinct cities and regions across the USA and Toronto, Ontario. 44% of the victims were men and 36% were women. This represented a 13% increase over the 5718 cases reported in 2002 by the same agencies and includes six reported deaths in the context of actual or suspected LGBT violence. Arizona reported one death and New York City reported five deaths.
* 4,964 or about 79% of the new incidents were reported in Los Angeles. The number of LGBT incidents in other cities and states include Boston (290), New York City (501), San Francisco (388), Colorado (139) , Chicago (65), Columbus, Ohio (46) , Pennsylvania (19) , Burlington, Vermont (21), Tuscon (64).
* 5,374 (82%) of the victims of domestic violence reported to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs identified themselves as gay; 575 (9%) were cases in which the victim declined to specify a sexual orientation or it was not recorded; 263 (4%) identified as bisexual; and 44 (0.6 %) were not sure or questioned their sexual orientation.
* Of the 42% incidence of domestic violence where race was recorded, 1,211 or 44% were white, 684 or 25% were Latino, 413 or 15% were of African descent, 153 or 5% were Asian/Pacific Islander, 125 or 4% were multicultural; just under 36 or 0.01% were indigenous/first people and about 0.01 were Arab/Middle Easterners, Jewish and others.
Nat'l Advoc. for Local Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Communities, Nat'l Coal. of Anti-Violence Programs, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Domestic Violence: 2003 Supplement - An Update from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (2004), at 3-8, 10, available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/reports.htm
Welfare Recipients
* Studies consistently show that at least 50 to 60 percent of women receiving public benefits have experienced physical abuse by an intimate partner at some point during their adult lives, compared to 22 percent of the general population; some studies indicate rates as high as 82 percent. A significant number of women receiving public benefits also report a history physical and sexual abuse in childhood, and as many as 30 percent of women on public benefits report abuse in a current relationship
Richard Tolman and Jody Raphael, A Review of the Research on Welfare and Domestic Violence, 56 J. of Soc. Iss. 655 (2000); Sharmila Lawrence, Research Forum on Children, Families, and the New Federalism, National Center for Children in Poverty, Domestic Violence and Welfare Policy: Research Findings That Can Inform Policies on Marriage and Child Well-Being, Issue Brief (2002); Eleanor Lyon, Building Comprehensive Solutions to Domestic Violence, Publ'n No. 10, Welfare, Poverty and Abused Women: New Research and Its Implications, (2000).
* In a recent study of two California counties (Kern and Stanislaus) public benefits recipients had lifetime abuse rates of 80 percent and 83 percent, respectively.
Joan Meisel, Daniel Chandler & Beth Menees Rienzi, Domestic Violence Prevalence and Effects on Employment in two California TANF Populations, 9 Violence Against Women 1191 (2003).
* A Wisconsin study found that 70 percent of domestic violence victims on public benefits did not disclose abuse to their caseworker.
Thomas Moore & Vicky Selkowe, Institute for Wisconsin's Future, Domestic Violence Victims in Transition from Welfare to Work: Barriers to Self-Sufficiency and the W-2 Response (1999).
See also Family Violence Prevention Fund, The Facts on Welfare and Domestic Violence, http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/Welfare.pdf (last visited August 13, 2006).
Domestic Violence And The Workplace
* Of the approximately 1.7 million incidents of workplace violence that occur in the US every year, approximately 18,700 (1.1 percent) are committed by an intimate: current or former spouse, lover, partner, or boyfriend/girlfriend.
Detis T. Duhart, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 190076, Violence in the Workplace 1993-99, Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report (2001) available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/vw99.pdf.
* Some abusive partners may try to stop women from working by calling them frequently during the day or coming to their place of work unannounced. Research indicates that about 50 percent of battered women who are employed are harassed at work by their abusive partners.
U.S. Gen. Accounting Office, GAO/HEHS-99-12, Domestic Violence: Prevalence and Implications for Employment Among Welfare Recipients (1998), available at www.gao.gov/archive/1999/he99012.pdf
According to a 2004 Maine study:
* Over three-quarters of offenders used workplace resources at least once to express remorse or anger, check up on, pressure, or threaten the victim.
* 74% had easy access to their intimate partner's workplace, with 21% of offenders reporting that they contacted her at the workplace in violation of a no contact order.
* 48% of offenders had difficulty concentrating at work, with 19% of offenders reporting a workplace accident or near miss from inattentiveness due to pre-occupation with their relationship.
* 42% of offenders were late to work.
Kim C. Lim et al., Maine Department of Labor and Family Crisis Services, Impact of Domestic Violence Offenders on Occupational Safety & Health: A Pilot Study (2004), available at http://www.state.me.us/labor/labor_stats/publications/dvreports/domesticoffendersreport.pdf
See also Corporate Alliance to End Partner Violence, Facts and Statistics: Workplace Statistics, http://caepv.org/getinfo/facts_stats.php?factsec=3 (last visited Aug. 12, 2006)
Offender Recidivism
According to a 2000 study which interviewed the former and current partners of male batterers referred to batterer programs by the court:
* 41% of participants reported that the men committed a re-assault during the 30-month follow-up period.
* Nearly 2/3 of the first time re-assaults occurred in the first 6 months.
* About 20 percent of the men repeatedly re-assaulted their partners and account for most of the reported injuries.
Edward Gondolf, Reassault at 30-Months after Batterer Program Intake, 44 Int'l J. of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology 111 (2000), available at http://www.iup.edu/maati/publications/outcomeabstracts.shtm#outcome4
In an examination of 1,309 cases under a program mandate at the Bronx misdemeanor domestic violence court:
* 8% of the defendants were rearrested between the initial arrest and case disposition, 35% during the program mandate period, 31% during the one year following the end of the mandate and 44% during the two years following the mandate.
* Overall, from the moment of index arrest to two years post release, 62 % of all defendants were rearrested.
Nora K. Puffett & Chandra Gavin, Ctr. for Ct. Innovation, Predictors of Program Outcome and Recidivism at the Bronx Misdemeanor Domestic Violence Court (2004), available at http://www.courtinnovation.org/_uploads/documents/predictorsbronxdv.pdf
Domestic violence
One in four women (25%) has experienced domestic violence in her lifetime.
(The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and The National Institute of Justice, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence, July 2000. The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, 1999)
Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend to 3 million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.
(U.S. Department of Justice, Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, March 1998. The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, 1999)
Women accounted for 85% of the victims of intimate partner violence, men for approximately 15%.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003)
Between 600,000 and 6 million women are victims of domestic violence each year, and between 100,000 and 6 million men, depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data.
(Rennison, C. (2003, Feb). Intimate partner violence. Us. Dpt. of Justice/Office of Justice Programs. NXJ 197838.
Straus, M. & Gelles, R. (1990). Physical violence in American families. New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers.
Tjaden, P., & Thoennes, N. (2000). Extent, nature, and consequences of intimate partner violence. National Institute of Justice, NCJ 181867.)
Women ages 20-24 are at the greatest risk of nonfatal intimate partner violence.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
Between 1993 and 2004, intimate partner violence on average made up 22% of nonfatal intimate partner victimizations against women. The same year, intimate partners committed 3% of all violent crime against men.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
Separated and divorced males and females are at a greater risk of nonfatal intimate partner violence.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
Women of all races are about equally vulnerable to violence by an intimate partner.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, August 1995)
Average annual rates of intimate partner victimization between 1994 and 2004 are approximately the same for non-Hispanic and Hispanic females and males.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
Intimate partner violence affects people regardless of income. However, people with lower annual income (below $25K) are at a 3-times higher risk of intimate partner violence than people with higher annual income (over $50K).*
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
*Please note that those with less resources are more likely to report incidents of violence
On average between 1993 and 2004, residents of urban areas experienced highest level of nonfatal intimate partner violence. Residents in suburban and rural areas were equally likely to experience such violence, about 20% less than those in urban areas.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
Nearly 2.2 million people called a domestic violence crisis or hot line in 2004 to escape crisis situations, seek advice, or assist someone they thought might be victims.
(National Network to End Domestic Violence)
Studies show that access to shelter services leads to a 60-70% reduction in incidence and severity of re-assault during the 3-12 months’ follow up period compared to women who did not access shelter. Shelter services led to greater reduction in severe re-assault than did seeking court or law enforcement protection, or moving to a new location.
(Campbell, JC, PhD, RN, FAAN. Anna D. Wolf, Johns Hopkins University School of Nursing, Protective Action and Re-assault: Findings from the RAVE study.)
Nearly three out of four (74%) of Americans personally know someone who is or has been a victim of domestic violence. 30% of Americans say they know a woman who has been physically abused by her husband or boyfriend in the past year.
(Allstate Foundation National Poll on Domestic Violence, 2006. Lieberman Research Inc., Tracking Survey conducted for The Advertising Council and the Family Violence Prevention Fund, July – October 1996)
Domestic violence homicides
On average, more than three women and one man are murdered by their intimate partners in this country every day. In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner. Intimate partner homicides accounted for 30% of the murders of women and 5% percent of the murders of men.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003. Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
Most intimate partner homicides occur between spouses, though boyfriends/girlfriends have committed about the same number of homicides in recent years.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)
The health-related costs of intimate partner violence exceed $5.8 billion each year. Of that amount, nearly $4.1 billion are for direct medical and mental health care services, and nearly $1.8 billion are for the indirect costs of lost productivity or wages.
(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States, April 2003.)
About half of all female victims of intimate violence report an injury of some type, and about 20 percent of them seek medical assistance.
(National Crime Victimization Survey, 1992-96; Study of Injured Victims of Violence, 1994)
Thirty-seven percent of women who sought treatment in emergency rooms for violence-related injuries in 1994 were injured by a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend.
(U.S. Department of Justice, Violence Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments, 1997)
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times
Westy, Andrew lives in the FSU, and has done for a number of years. Less than 200 miles from St Petersburg FWIW.
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times
Westy, Andrew lives in the FSU, and has done for a number of years. Less than 200 miles from St Petersburg FWIW.
Manny my understanding is that Andrew lives in the EU, in Estonia. Estonia may not be quite as comfortable and law abiding as England or Germany but it is a far different country from Russia. In Russia where Putin phones up the cops and tells them who to arrest.
You might say to yourself that it's still a FSU country with Russians living there and still has that old time Soviet feel to the country. Well you'd be wrong. I know you have a house in Estonia and live there part of the year but if you're saying Estonia is still Russian in its style of government than research by some very smart and talented people says you're wrong.
Transparency International measures perceived levels of corruption in the public sector around the world. If you take a look at the supplied link you will see that Estonia is 26th out of 178 countries (higher number is more corrupt). Russia is 154th out of 178. To give you some idea of how "clean" or not corrupt Estonia is the country just ahead of Estonia at 25 is France. Estonia is actually less corrupt than Spain (#30) or Italy (#67) or Portugal (#32). Russia on the other hand is ranked similar to Democratic Republic of the Congo (#164), Kenya (#154) or Tajikistan (#154).
No matter how you look at it Estonia is not Russia not even close, Andrew lives in the EU. In fact he lives in one of the less corrupt countries of the EU. Another factor against his research is that he has stated, as you have, that he has lived in Estonia for years, yet speaks little or no Russian or Estonian. Not exactly a good expat trying to integrate into the local community and understand the local culture.
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010
I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times
Westy, Andrew lives in the FSU, and has done for a number of years. Less than 200 miles from St Petersburg FWIW.
Manny my understanding is that Andrew lives in the EU, in Estonia. Estonia may not be quite as comfortable and law abiding as England or Germany but it is a far different country from Russia. In Russia where Putin phones up the cops and tells them who to arrest.
You might say to yourself that it's still a FSU country with Russians living there and still has that old time Soviet feel to the country. Well you'd be wrong. I know you have a house in Estonia and live there part of the year but if you're saying Estonia is still Russian in its style of government than research by some very smart and talented people says you're wrong.
Transparency International measures perceived levels of corruption in the public sector around the world. If you take a look at the supplied link you will see that Estonia is 26th out of 178 countries (higher number is more corrupt). Russia is 154th out of 178. To give you some idea of how "clean" or not corrupt Estonia is the country just ahead of Estonia at 25 is France. Estonia is actually less corrupt than Spain (#30) or Italy (#67) or Portugal (#32). Russia on the other hand is ranked similar to Democratic Republic of the Congo (#164), Kenya (#154) or Tajikistan (#154).
No matter how you look at it Estonia is not Russia not even close, Andrew lives in the EU. In fact he lives in one of the less corrupt countries of the EU. Another factor against his research is that he has stated, as you have, that he has lived in Estonia for years, yet speaks little or no Russian or Estonian. Not exactly a good expat trying to integrate into the local community and understand the local culture.
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010
Westy, Estonia is most certainly FSU (former Soviet Union). It shares a border with Russia, has at least a third ethnic Russians still there, Russian is a major language there, and Tallinn is 100 miles from the Russian border at Narva.
You have noted already that we live there part time, Andrew lives there full time, and you have never been. Yet, YOU think you can tell me about Estonia? I first went there thirteen years ago and I am able to compare it to Russia as I have been there countless times also; my wife is from Russia.
You are simply not qualified to lecture me about Estonia and the FSU from your armchair and some Googling. To continue will only make you look even more foolish.
My personal opinion is there are several factors equally as important as IMBRA and other government interference in the decline of he industry as a whole:
1) women in the FSU have discovered that the general "quality" of western men involved in this pursuit is substandard
If you consider that most men will write letters but never visit then I agree.
If you consider the men who actually get on a plane then I disagree. I think
it closer to 60-40 or 50-50. I would say a little less than half are pathetic
losers and the other slightly more than half are solid individuals. Of course
this is only my opinion and doubt there is any way to quantify the percentage
of losers to solid individuals.
Are your rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago? Sure, but what about the "Dirty Barrel" theory in your own backyard?
interesting read.
personally i think anything that puts HRB/RLM + AWEB and all the other letter/chat trading sites out of business can only be a good thing. they have cynically used IMBRA regs to their advantage to proclude people from exchanging their personal information in order to continue to propogate their desire to extract maximum revenues out of a highly margined low cost communication pyramid scheme. The fact their customers will now be required to get printed/checked removes at source the vast majority of keyboard romeos who prop up their incredibly cynical business model that isn't in any way focused on delivering successful outcomes for either man or woman.
Removing the "broker" element from all these relationships is a good thing - agencies need to go back to what they should be doing which is providing travel support services, translation and other services that are ancillary to the outcome of a relationship. Any business that has a vested interest in not seeing a positive outcome i.e making money from the journey not the destination is something that should be dealt with.
Legitimate agencies in local cities could easily work around these rules if it suited them - simply have all the girls post their profiles to a facebook group i.e "single Kiev Girls Looking for Love" and let direct communication between both parties ensue, then generate income from ancillary services providing translation, english lessons, apartments, transfers etc and all the stuff agencies used to do before the primary motivation became a dollars per letter / chat minute business.
This was ALWAYS a niche business for the genuine men/women involved, it was the cynical attempts of a few people to turn it into a megacorp cash generator with a low cost of product high margin that the rot set in, I definately agree with the appraisal that the industry has brought this situation to their own door. Unfortunately I know of many second/third generation matchmakers put out of business due to their refusal to comply with the suspect business practices of such letter factories and the willingness of shady businesspeople to set up in such places merely to facilitate them.
Countless heartache/tears has been generated by both men and woman due to the practices of these large operators and they have brought the whole thing into disrepute, the sooner they are put out to pasture the better.
Andrew just read your report, 5 full minutes and I wasn't even reading fast. I personally don't think you're correct and are probably well off the mark. As I've mentioned more than once, I've never been to the FSU and I'm sure you've been there a few times and I'm sure any sources that you've used have also been there once or twice, however your report deals exclusively about the RUSSIAN bride business and mentions no other aspect of the international marriage business.
The Russian bride business is a small portion of the international marriage business. The Asian bride business is far larger than the Russian bride business, certainly in Canada and the US, and probably in the EU and the UK. This also doesn't include the market for other areas of the world such as the India and other countries in south central Asia. I think you will find if you do some research into the Asia bride business you will find it far more vibrant and not at all with the same worries as the Russian bride business. Of course since I live in Canada so I really don't have any worries about IMBRA or any other American legislation in this area. I also don't believe that Canada would follow suit with legislation mirroring anything brought in by the US government.
Your comments about online gambling were somewhat true and did result in banning banks and credit card companies from transferring payments to gambling websites. However the issue is being revisited by the US Congress. U.S. Senator Harry Reid, once an opponent of online gambling is pushing a bill that would legalize online gambling. Will it pass before the end of the lame duck Congress, who knows but with the current economic conditions in the US, I'm sure the issue will be revisited if research finds it generates taxable income.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/5468-harry-reid-pushing-to-legalize-online-gambling
I have no way of knowing for certain, but I sense that the sorry figure shakespear gives of 80% losers may be worse now than say 10 years ago. As someone that had made some forays into the scene back then and having another try at it now I’d guess it has gotten worse just by the sort of questions and responses I’ve received in my recent personal experiences compared to the ones back then. For example, some thought (such as the one I’m meeting in 2 weeks) it amazing that I am really making all the travel, lodging arrangements, details etc myself and she would only have to meet me at the airport & spend time with me. Others seemed overly concerned that I would only write and waste their time. Others skeptical when I referred to our first meeting as only a relaxed “get to know you first date”. In other words I first have to reassure them that I am not a complete loser! It used to be, it seemed to me, that it was only a matter of whether or not a man could take care of his woman once a committed relationship is established. The whole feel is definitely different now.If you consider that most men will write letters but never visit then I agree.
If you consider the men who actually get on a plane then I disagree. I think
it closer to 60-40 or 50-50. I would say a little less than half are pathetic
losers and the other slightly more than half are solid individuals. Of course
this is only my opinion and doubt there is any way to quantify the percentage
of losers to solid individuals.
I was considering ALL western men that these women have come in contact with in the process of seeking an international marriage. That would include all the Keyboard Romeos, Sex Tourists, Picky Cheapskates, Control Freaks, Social Misfits, Internet Dirty Picture Seekers and Undercapitalized Idiots. They're contact with the universe of willing FSU females that would consider seeking an international marriage has increased the callousness of FSU woman against participating in this venture.
As to the percentage of losers that get on a plane; my agency contacts would tell you that the number of losers is closer to 80%
Bones, sounds like you only have been experiencing contact with "mailorder brides" and not much (orany) of the general population RW... The attitudes and conversations you are describing are not the norm.I have no way of knowing for certain, but I sense that the sorry figure shakespear gives of 80% losers may be worse now than say 10 years ago. As someone that had made some forays into the scene back then and having another try at it now I’d guess it has gotten worse just by the sort of questions and responses I’ve received in my recent personal experiences compared to the ones back then. For example, some thought (such as the one I’m meeting in 2 weeks) it amazing that I am really making all the travel, lodging arrangements, details etc myself and she would only have to meet me at the airport & spend time with me. Others seemed overly concerned that I would only write and waste their time. Others skeptical when I referred to our first meeting as only a relaxed “get to know you first date”. In other words I first have to reassure them that I am not a complete loser! It used to be, it seemed to me, that it was only a matter of whether or not a man could take care of his woman once a committed relationship is established. The whole feel is definitely different now.If you consider that most men will write letters but never visit then I agree.
If you consider the men who actually get on a plane then I disagree. I think
it closer to 60-40 or 50-50. I would say a little less than half are pathetic
losers and the other slightly more than half are solid individuals. Of course
this is only my opinion and doubt there is any way to quantify the percentage
of losers to solid individuals.
I was considering ALL western men that these women have come in contact with in the process of seeking an international marriage. That would include all the Keyboard Romeos, Sex Tourists, Picky Cheapskates, Control Freaks, Social Misfits, Internet Dirty Picture Seekers and Undercapitalized Idiots. They're contact with the universe of willing FSU females that would consider seeking an international marriage has increased the callousness of FSU woman against participating in this venture.
As to the percentage of losers that get on a plane; my agency contacts would tell you that the number of losers is closer to 80%
2) improving economic conditions in Russia and a decline in western economies due to the current recession have made immigration to the west a less appealing choice for FSU women
Quote2) improving economic conditions in Russia and a decline in western economies due to the current recession have made immigration to the west a less appealing choice for FSU women
But economic conditions are not the only reason women look elsewhere.
Of course not but the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the process is probably a reflection of the depth of colour in your rose coloured spectacles.
AND
As many women will tell you, they can marry a poor guy in their home town.
While there are many reasons a woman might choose to leave her community to go live with a relative stranger the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the mix, in your opinion, will be conditioned by the depth of tint of your rose coloured specs.
To be honest, if you actually look at the other reasons you suggested, most are actually about the allocation of resources - economics.
But as you did not list 'love' in there, I think that on some level you get the point.
Good point on the Commercial Member designation for 'Andrewfi', 'Froid'. That appears to be something that has been overlooked by the forum staff'.
Good point on the Commercial Member designation for 'Andrewfi', 'Froid'. That appears to be something that has been overlooked by the forum staff'.
A "Commercial Member" is usually one who seeks to sell you something. Andrew is giving you a free report. There is no commercial transaction taking place between you and he. He isn't selling you anything. You are not buying anything from him. Where is the "commercial" element to that?
Are your rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago? Sure, but what about the "Dirty Barrel" theory in your own backyard?
How would you--or anyone else--know whether the "rates of finding somebody dishonest higher in 2010/2011 than 10 years ago?"
Speaking as someone who was actually around this scene ten years ago, I strongly doubt that. If anything, I'd think it would be the reverse...but I also cannot prove it with any sort of reliability beyond my impressions at the time compared to what I see being discussed today.
There are ways of having open communication without involving IMBRA at all, sites operated outside the US sphere of influence or by definition "social networking" sites and unaffected by such laws. You'll just have to do most of the work yourself. If you're a busy individual this is likely not the best way to go about it but there will remain smaller matchmaker services like Ed's and others might shift in this direction to serve a well paid clientele. For the rest of us, we'll just have to use low cost web sites, search for discounted air fare, getting all visa paperwork finished and using technology as best we can to keep that vital communication link open.
The above is not however for the person that has never left his own city/town/berg, let alone his own country and THAT person likely is going to be a causality of the coming changes to this industry.
I also don't believe that Canada would follow suit with legislation mirroring anything brought in by the US government.
He isn't selling you anything.
You are not buying anything from him.
Muzh, when I have something to sell you I will let you know. I asked for a valid email address in order to be able to notify all interested parties when the next document becomes available. I REALLY don't want to have to track everybody down. This is not the only place in the world, you guys are NOT the centre of the universe and I do not want to waste my time. You don't want to get these documents then don't sign up. SIMPLES
Rasputin, you are correct, the same forces are at work in places other than the Home of the Brave. The timing and implementations may vary slightly but the processes are very similar.
Complacency is what has allowed the MOB niche to get itself into this trouble. Changing a name or an address will not make the troubles go away.
There has been no attacks in match.com or eharmony ect.. as most of them are exempt from IMBRA rules even though they have plenty of Russian/Ukraine ladies profiles. I expect that after a while they will become a target.
QuoteOf course not but the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the process is probably a reflection of the depth of colour in your rose coloured spectacles.
AND
As many women will tell you, they can marry a poor guy in their home town.
Since you seem to not be able to read you should note I said it was not the ONLY reason. There are no rose coloured glasses on here I am just not the pessimist you are. I have heard many other reasons to look outside Russia...instability, corruption, social inequality. Reasons to look at a western man...perceived as better family men, different culture that values woman more. And yes...economics can come into the equation as well but they are not the singular cause.
-- Copyrighted material removed by mods after complaint --
Why can't it be uploaded here and shared out to all? Why the need to 'register'?
Because that is how I want to do it.
This is not the only place that has an interest in the 'mail order bride' business
I think that you are right in that in a changing business, social and political environment how can businesses redefine themselves in such a manner that they can continue to profitably trade. This is something that has been on my mind because I DO agree with you that folks such as Ed, Jack and even Kevin Hayes are going to face significant challenges, some of which I would warrant they are unaware of as yet, or even if aware, are not alive to the significance of the changes - indeed I cover that in my report.
Brass, I think that you are right in that in a changing business, social and political environment how can businesses redefine themselves in such a manner that they can continue to profitably trade. This is something that has been on my mind because I DO agree with you that folks such as Ed, Jack and even Kevin Hayes are going to face significant challenges, some of which I would warrant they are unaware of as yet, or even if aware, are not alive to the significance of the changes - indeed I cover that in my report.
Shakes, this is about much more than IMBRA, in regulatory terms the state level legislation is a mind number but then add in other assaults on IMBs and their clients and the picture gets very murky.
Don't forget that IMBRA is not really being enforced at present but will likely become so soon as a result of Audit Office reports. I truth businesses and clients have been on a free ride for the past few years and almost certainly enjoying a false sense of security.
A lack of transparency has done much to break the trust between all parties in the IMB niche, including men and women. Management of expectations is a minimum, but largely unmet, requirement.
Seems pretty clear to me that even though services and fees haven't been clearly defined as of yet, they are coming and certainly the marketing and Andrew's own words clearly are pointing in that direction....
Things that make you go hmm....
Seems pretty clear to me that even though services and fees haven't been clearly defined as of yet, they are coming and certainly the marketing and Andrew's own words clearly are pointing in that direction....
Things that make you go hmm....
So, even if this is true, doesn't your keyboard have a "delete" key? What's the big deal?
it certainly appears 'irregular' that staff and the admin would regularly go after others and do their utmost to ensure members who have commercial interests are clearly defined and yet seem to be quite lethargic and lackadaisical in their action and response in regards to Andrews emerging and self admission of commercial intrest 'in the business'. That's how it appears....
it certainly appears 'irregular' that staff and the admin would regularly go after others and do their utmost to ensure members who have commercial interests are clearly defined and yet seem to be quite lethargic and lackadaisical in their action and response in regards to Andrews emerging and self admission of commercial intrest 'in the business'. That's how it appears....
While I can't say for sure, I would be willing to guess that if and when Andrewfi actually starts to sell a product his status will be upgraded accordingly.
What's he selling now Eric? He's giving away a free report. How does that make him a commercial member? Your protests are really premature.
Eric when I want you to reproduce copyright material of mine I will ask you.
Now even YOU can see why I choose to distribute as I have!
Forget about this forum's rules, this is unacceptable even from somebody like you.
"Shakespear," I find it hard to believe someone as business savvy as yourself can't clearly see what is wide spread and oft used business and advertising tactic.
"Shakespear," I find it hard to believe someone as business savvy as yourself can't clearly see what is wide spread and oft used business and advertising tactic.
I also understand that a person is not "guilty" of doing something until he actually does it.
I also don't believe that Canada would follow suit with legislation mirroring anything brought in by the US government.
Why would they. Canada already tightened up the laws years ago. First Canada got rid of the fiancé visas a decade-or-so ago and a few years ago they made it necessary to prove that you had a legitimate relationship when the spouse applied for permanent residence. Now, they are trying to clamp down on marriages of convenience. They could bar the sponsoring of spouses altogether, but that IMHO would drive away votes from large immigrant communities so I can't see that happening any time soon.
I believe Westy's point he was trying to make was the fingerprinting, mug shots etc. won't b Incorporated in Canada. IMHO
there wouldn't be a backlash from the already existing immigrant population anyways.
The administration and staff should restore the quoted text you removed as it violates no laws and or policies and the source material was quoted and denotated, and credited appropriately and per internationally accepted academic and legal standards for quoting source material as part of a literary discourse.
For the ignorant they can find the applicable information by researching 'Fair use'
Is that not what brought about the legislation in the states. Many women, not all, were forced to stay in abusive relationships to gain residency status? Or am I out to lunch on this one?
Smitty
If I understand American law correctly after reading these forums these past few years, the way a woman can get her 10-year green card and eventual citizenship if she doesn't stay with her husband for those two years is by demonstrating domestic violence. The Americans on this forum can correct me if I am wrong. This, of course, creates an incentive to claim domestic abuse even if there was none....
I am sure the mother or grandmother of the fine lad (or occasionally lass) who is no longer able to sponsor his (or her) spouse would say otherwise :-X
According to The Star, there are 45,000 or so spouses sponsored each year in Canada: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/836957--fastest-way-to-get-to-canada-marriage?bn=1 (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/836957--fastest-way-to-get-to-canada-marriage?bn=1) and some one thousand cases of reported frauds (spouses getting married to get their permanent residence card). Of those 1,000, The Star estimates that "70 per cent of the cases are from South Asia" (i.e. India). If their numbers are correct, this represents roughly between a quarter and a fifth of all immigrants that come to Canada. Barring the sponsoring of spouses would lead to some rancor.
I am sure the mother or grandmother of the fine lad (or occasionally lass) who is no longer able to sponsor his (or her) spouse would say otherwise :-X
It's a factor for sure. But prohibition (for lack of a better term) is not the same as gradually making the process so difficult/lengthy that for practical purposes it becomes virtually untenable.
The problem is that in general you guys chasing foreign brides and the businesses that serve you are a REALLY cheap target. I discussed this in the report, but almost any pol can get free votes off you guys because for years you did NOTHING.
The problem is that in general you guys chasing foreign brides and the businesses that serve you are a REALLY cheap target. I discussed this in the report, but almost any pol can get free votes off you guys because for years you did NOTHING.
This is dead on. IMBRA and similar state laws provide the pols the opportunity to flex in front of a favored constituency (i.e. Feminist groups), at the expense of a disfavored and comparatively infinitely weaker group, lewzers who seek foreign brides (e.g. guys like us). It is terribly important for pols to look like they are "Doing Something!" and this sort of thing is enacted with little/no regard to pesky things like the Bill of Rights, as part of the US Gov'ts ongoing program of "Citizen Harassment."
B/B
I am a British citizen living in the UK, how does all this happening in the USA affect me ? I currently have a Russian girlfriend and if things do not work out between us i will simply go back to the website "allsinglerussiangirls" and find someone else. How do these US laws affect this website (allsinglerussiangirls) as i do not think it is foreign owned ?
I am a British citizen living in the UK, how does all this happening in the USA affect me?
I am a British citizen living in the UK, how does all this happening in the USA affect me ? I currently have a Russian girlfriend and if things do not work out between us i will simply go back to the website "allsinglerussiangirls" and find someone else. How do these US laws affect this website (allsinglerussiangirls) as i do not think it is foreign owned ?
The owner of "allsinglerussiangirls" is Grebnev Nikolay from SoftEnergo, Saint-Petersburg... in fact, these guy own 36 different sites related to Russian dating/marriage...
Since you are in UK and the business is located in Russia, these topic don't really concern you...
What can maybe happen is that the increase of expense for the agency due to the US laws will lead to a general increase of price for all customer... after all, around 50% of the males seeking a Russian bride are from US...
Business will adapt and customer will adapt... nothing will really die !!!
Bruno who hasn't posted in three and a half years!
Welcome back Bruno! tiphat :party0031:
QuoteOf course not but the degree to which economics is NOT a part of the process is probably a reflection of the depth of colour in your rose coloured spectacles.
AND
As many women will tell you, they can marry a poor guy in their home town.
Since you seem to not be able to read you should note I said it was not the ONLY reason. There are no rose coloured glasses on here I am just not the pessimist you are. I have heard many other reasons to look outside Russia...instability, corruption, social inequality. Reasons to look at a western man...perceived as better family men, different culture that values woman more. And yes...economics can come into the equation as well but they are not the singular cause.
MUZH,
If you look it up NAZI, is short for National socialist party.
So yes one can and do have both.
But please don't take my word for it, look it up. :offtopic:
But we all know that if the another forum inner circle did this, the RUA 3 amigos would be all over them sticking to it like bile on a blanket.
UK Government wants ISPs to block porn:
It is probably more practical for parents to use the parental controls in their operating system and search engines to achieve similar result without having to incur a potential burden on taxpayers or fellow Internet subscribers. (These things do cost money, you know).
If the agency side dies, it will not stop people from communicating, meeting and making it happen. There are far too many other ways of contacting and finding each other, either locally or in another country. You do not need a business to do it. So who cares other then the owners if they die out.
But we all know that if the another forum inner circle did this, the RUA 3 amigos would be all over them sticking to it like bile on a blanket.
It may surprise you to learn, another forum will be carrying ads for the report also. The only reason they are not right now is that Dan is out of town and delayed by snow somewhere I gather.
I am not more in the business of Russian bride, not more married to Russian Bride, not more seeking Russian bride... i have give up... now, i simply date without border limit...
But we all know that if the another forum inner circle did this, the RUA 3 amigos would be all over them sticking to it like bile on a blanket.
It may surprise you to learn, another forum will be carrying ads for the report also. The only reason they are not right now is that Dan is out of town and delayed by snow somewhere I gather.
Now, Manny--run it by us one more time as to why Andrew is not now classed as a "commercial member" if he's running ads and offering cash to people for referring others to register with his site--with the "free" report being the draw for folks to register there.
Please remember--I am not at all adverse to his making money online, far from it. I only think that honesty is the best policy, and everyone should acknowledge that his motivation is far from philanthropic in all this.
Sorry, but in my opinion and that of various others he should be subject to the same rules as everyone else.
David
Since when has RUA been a democracy? ...
Don, I have no plans to hypnotise you and make you give me money! My information requirement was explained elsewhere and I have a clearly stated policy in regard to your email address.Quote
Thank you for answering, it was most welcoming. Now I just hope you have understood the question. :coffeeread:
If you are so scared of what the innerneds can make you do are you safe to use the internet on your computer?
My ignorance of the PC is bliss... so I've been told. ;D
More constructively, if you want to cause me some grief then attack my bank account - help me spread the word, see if you can hurt me.
??? Prehaps you're taking my simple Q a tad far from the crosshairs.No interest in it at all. :Zzzzsleep:
Even more constructively:
Let us talk about the issues facing the international marriage bureau biz.
Let us talk about the things we agree on, the things we don't agree on and maybe share some new insights.
Do not for one second imagine that not being American makes you in some way immune to the processes now in play.
You are not.
The same memes that are becoming powerful in the USA exist in other places too.
That I highly doubt. Our immigration MP is currently taking steps to ensure bogus marriages come to an end. Nothing has been said about restricting the movement of Canadian's abroad. The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada. Changes to obtaining a PR card are also in the table for change. Now knowing how well they move in Ottawa, I'm gonna hedge that these changes will be announced , but won't be enforced.
Please excuse my Moby-esk quoted post. I guess he's enjoying his New Years weekend, and hasn't had the chance to drop by on your topic yet.
The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.
The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.
Of course Canada is far different from the US.
A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right? :ROFL:
At the same time, one aspect of the argument is quite true--if U.S. citizens are sufficiently discouraged that their numbers decrease substantially, that will make the introduction agency business so unprofitable that it will indeed drive many to seek other business opportunities. That alone will affect bride seekers no matter where they may be from.
David
The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.
Of course Canada is far different from the US.
A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right? :ROFL:
At the same time, one aspect of the argument is quite true--if U.S. citizens are sufficiently discouraged that their numbers decrease substantially, that will make the introduction agency business so unprofitable that it will indeed drive many to seek other business opportunities. That alone will affect bride seekers no matter where they may be from.
David
Yes. Apart from a basic truth that many memes are shared across national boundaries this is very important. Much of the mail order bride biz from the FSU, Latin America and Asia is financed and run by US interests.
What happens to that client base will affect clients from elsewhere.
In truth it will be easier for many service providers to do as they do now and treat all their paying clients as if they were US based, thus Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc will have to deal with legislative effects to some degree or another.
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The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.
Of course Canada is far different from the US.
A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right? :ROFL:
The USA is a different animal then Canada. One issue on the table is having a trial period for all sponsored spouses. Eg; if the marriage fails with in a 2 year period, the sponsored person will not get to remain in Canada.
Of course Canada is far different from the US.
A two-year trial period certainly sounds different than the two-year conditional resident visa in the U.S. that has been with us for many years, right? :ROFL:
As far as I know there is no plan to revive the fiancé visa. The 2-year thing is merely one of those ideas that is thrown out there and will certainly go nowhere...
Andrew now you've had a few too many celebratory New Year's Eve drinks. What agency American or otherwise would have Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc do the American IMBRA paperwork knowing that the men are exempt? What happens when one of these men points out to the agency proprietor that as a Brit he is exempt from IMBRA since his future wife will be living in the UK and not the US? What's next Estonian men having to fill out IMBRA paperwork when they marry an ethnic Russian woman in Estonia? :laugh: :laugh:
Andrew I think you should concentrate on selling used cars or fake Viagra over the Internet that's obviously where your marketing expertise lays. It really will be interesting to see what you're going to try and sell the men in the Russian bride community once your master marketing plan has run its course. It's all about the :money: :money:
Westcoast, I do not sell fake Viagra, nor have I ever sold used cars.
You kinda missed the point, perhaps the view from your armchair is getting a tad narrow, or more likely you have not actually read that which you criticise in such a nieve fashion. I would refer you to 'Death of a Russian Bride' where the points at issue are made pretty clear, IMBRA is just one issue among many. When you have read the report we can better discuss what I wrote, yes?
Andrew now you've had a few too many celebratory New Year's Eve drinks. What agency American or otherwise would have Canadians, Britons, Aussies etc do the American IMBRA paperwork knowing that the men are exempt? What happens when one of these men points out to the agency proprietor that as a Brit he is exempt from IMBRA since his future wife will be living in the UK and not the US? What's next Estonian men having to fill out IMBRA paperwork when they marry an ethnic Russian woman in Estonia? :laugh: :laugh:
Andrew I think you should concentrate on selling used cars or fake Viagra over the Internet that's obviously where your marketing expertise lays. It really will be interesting to see what you're going to try and sell the men in the Russian bride community once your master marketing plan has run its course. It's all about the :money: :money:
Westy, first off, your comment quoted really doesn't lend itself to furthering the discussion at hand, let's avoid the inflammatory rhetoric, eh?.
Now, as Andrew alluded to above, the reality of the situation is that the special interest lobbyists/organizations in Canada (at least) are pushing for IMBRA type legislation and have been doing so for years, David and Don touched on it above commenting on the two year 'trial period' being on the table.
What Canadian men/women involved or are thinking of getting involved in an offshore relationship need to understand is the same (type) organizations that managed to push IMBRA through are actively seeking similar legislation here. Again, I firmly believe that one case of violence/abuse in any form against any female/male immigrant or otherwise is one too many but that doesn't change the agenda.
Case in point. A federal briefing document published by (from what I gather) three of these organizations:
Briefing (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:OOyc9pOz8CoJ:www.endingviolence.org/files/uploads/FED_BN_3_Guidelines.pdf+Canadian+immigration+and+the+mail+order+bride&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESirthLPsfPhSPo2HDXr_gm40bgw1UvHfJvFS-omCy_tN4R2bgTF8rqGs1bpyillbPk5Fc-JfRqMj5I3DzeH8TY9TZ50loBuUhXkGeX86WbfKhFEP3pxez3nd7OOb1uSC04EcmMf&sig=AHIEtbSll4ZLmJDBRsXOG6YvFqog0Qy_0Q)
You'll note that as in this document and other documents, some more militant in their wording, they don't make a distinction between 'mail order bride' and temporary foreign worker (Page 5, Para 9, bullet 4 (located page 6));
They define 'mail order bride' as any woman (I'll assume male or female but as their area of special interest is the female gender, we'll stick with that) who has met their spouse through an international introduction or penpal agency (Page 2, Para Key Points, bullet 9 (located on page 3)); and
And one I find a little disturbing, a reversal of the victim/perpetrator role regarding men being used as mules under false pretences (Page 3, Para The Context, bullet 9 (located page 4)). In effect leaving the door open to make the sponsor guilty, regardless if the 'bride' turns out to be a GCG (for lack of equivelant Canadian term) duping a male for the purpose seeking immigration.
There are many such documents on the web. The point being here, is that in some ways, this is exactly what happened in the US. The terms were defined by these special interest groups, the 'industry 'and endeavor (immigration for the purpose of marriage) tied to human trafficking, abuse and even foreign workers, then they went to work on the US lawmakers and IMBRA was born.
I'm not sensationalizing or by no means saying this type of legislation is imminent, what I am saying is these organizations are working diligently here in Canada to get their agenda enacted, while the (mostly) men who would seek a foreign relationship or the agencies/companies who would facilitate same, are really not paying attention...Exactly what happened in the US five years ago.
Brass
Andrew I think you should concentrate on selling used cars or fake Viagra over the Internet that's obviously where your marketing expertise lays.
Brass this type of document isn't new, most of the women's organizations have been trying to get similar legislation enacted for some time. The problem is that Canada's three largest (by far) source countries for immigrants are China, India and the Philippines, none of which could really be called "safe countries" for women or countries championing human rights. However, citizens of and former citizens of, don't want their countries reputations disparaged so the women's rights groups can't actually name any of these countries.
These organizations may use some women from these countries as examples of abuse however the ethnic communities from these countries form large voting blocks and they don't like the insult that often accompanies these examples of abuse. I seriously doubt the legislation, especially in the form you've shown, has much chance of passing even an initial vote.
Brass I really don't think my comments about Andrew's report were any more inflammatory than any of his comments or his report. He has asked for comments on the topic and I happen to have some personal expertise on the matter having dealt with immigrants over 10 years and speaking a second language that is extremely common with immigrants in the Vancouver area. Plus my ex is Chinese born and raised, not Russian but still any legislation wouldn't be based on specific countries.
I'm gonna have to call "BS" on this. The so called detailed analysis backing this so called report is so flawed it's not even funny.
The 6 listed "laws" that seem to be the basis of the sky is falling aspect of this internet marketing campaign are nothing. Lets review them:
IMBRA - enacted in 2005 hasn't been any impact yet . . .
Missouri House bill 2449 failed to pass. Public input was finished in April 2010 and subsequently the bill was never scheduled for a hearing and was never put on a calendar.
Washington RCW220 bogus citation, why hide the real citation?? This law has a clearly written "intent" as to what it's purpose is and it's not what is being claimed in this chicken little sky is falling internet marketing campagain. Oh, yeah, this law was written in 2002 with some updates in 2006. Can't find a reference to it's actual use.
Hawaii Rev. Stat. § 489N-2 was written in 2002 can't find any reference to it's actual use.
Texas Business and Commerce Code 2003: Title 5, Subtitle C, Chapter 101 Written in 2002 and not utilized. I've previously mentioned this one.
Maryland HB65/SB129 signed by Governor 5/20/2010
So of the 6 "laws" that allegedly spell the death of this market, one is recent, so no way to know what if any impact it will have, 1 was written in 2005 and has no impact to date, and 4 were written in 2002 and have had no impact.
Please explain how on earth this can even come close to supporting the claims being made??
Waiting . . . .
Guess we've found the Alex Jones of the Foreign Bride Industry.
-david
I want to open a dialogue about some very serious issues that are facing the International Marriage Bureau business, the service providers in both the US and internationally and their clients in any country around the world.
This report is the first part of the document, the next part is in progress right now.
I want to ensure, to the best of my ability, that people get to see the words that I wrote in as transparent a way as possible.
The ONLY way to do this is for me to control distribution.
When others take it upon themselves to steal my intellectual property I lose control of those words and I have no way to ensure that what is shared and spread is what I actually wrote!
When the next document comes out I want to ensure that those who were interested enough to ask for the first part are able to get the second part as soon as is possible, again the only way to do this is by email.
I make a part of my living from dealing with people across the internet. I take issues of trust and privacy VERY seriously because, in the end, all we have is our reputation, more on the internet than just about anywhere else.
On the signup page for my report the following words appear:QuotePrivacy Notice: Death Of A Russian Bride Has a Zero Tolerance Policy for SPAM, and will only contact you after you have opted in and confirmed your email address verifying that you have requested the information. You may opt out at any time!
Note those words, they are important. If I did not have concerns for the trust and privacy of those who are interested in this issue I would not have used them. They are pretty concrete. I want to know that you want to read and I want you to confirm it.
You can stop the process at any time. I know that I will receive no justifiable spam complaints as a result of my campaign.
All the ideas, words, videos, layouts used are mine, they represent my knowledge and research and nobody else's; although, of course, I have learned much from other people, including readers of this thread and my report. As always, research is the result of a person standing upon the shoulders of others in order to see further.
So, please, do not ask me to distribute Death of a Russian Bride in any other manner - it will not happen.
Please do not try to infer that this report is not my own work or that it represents the ideas of another person or business, neither is true, and I will not dignify such suggestions with responses.
Take the words written at face value, deal with the ideas and issues as they appear to you.
If you want to read what I have written then sign up, using a disposable email address if you choose.
Read my words and add to the conversation.
Every constructive post here and in other places is read and adds to my sum total of knowledge.
I am doing something that, to the best of my knowledge has not been done before. It could not have been done without the help and support of many readers here and will not be concluded without your/their help.
And yes, if you pass this report onto other people who might be interested in it then I will happily pay you the princely sum of $1 per subscription. I want to spread this document. It is my choice and challenge.
Let us do something positive, eh?
Under the "fair use" rule of copyright law, an author may make limited use of another author's work without asking permission. Fair use is based on the belief that the public is entitled to freely use portions of copyrighted materials for purposes of commentary and criticism. The fair use privilege is perhaps the most significant limitation on a copyright owner's exclusive rights. If you write or publish, you need a basic understanding of what is and is not fair use.
Copyright under the Berne Convention must be automatic; it is prohibited to require formal registration (note however that when the United States joined the Convention in 1988, they continued to make statutory damages and attorney's fees only available for registered works).Also see:
Citation and Fair Use Under Berne Convention[/size]
According to article 10(1) of the Berne Convention, anyone has the right to take a relevant portion of somebody else’s work and copy it in his own work, provided attribution is given to the author. The citation should of course not go beyond what is necessary for the purpose of the citation. Citations are also permissible in case of reviews or other discussions of a work. [/size]
Article 10 Berne Convention states that a country is free to permit fair use of a work or not. Fair use in the Berne Convention is defined as "the utilization, to the extent justified by the purpose, of literary or artistic works by way of illustration in publications, broadcasts or sound or visual recordings for teaching, provided such utilization is compatible with fair practice."3
While the principles behind fair use are largely the same as behind the citation rights, it is possible that a certain usable work is considered a fair use, even though it is not a citation. For example, if somebody writes an article and gives it away for free, the author has himself severely limited the potential market and the value of his work.4
When copyrighted material is used without obtaining permission for the purpose of criticism, comment, news reporting, research, scholarship and non-profit educational uses then the use is considered to be fair.
33 http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/crashcourse/limitations/.
Perhaps you might consider giving us a brief update on another thread. RW aren't all fluffy kittens, are they?
Do not for one second imagine that not being American makes you in some way immune to the processes now in play.
You are not.
The same memes that are becoming powerful in the USA exist in other places too.
At the same time, one aspect of the argument is quite true--if U.S. citizens are sufficiently discouraged that their numbers decrease substantially, that will make the introduction agency business so unprofitable that it will indeed drive many to seek other business opportunities. That alone will affect bride seekers no matter where they may be from.
Well after reading a little of this thread it leaves me with the feeling we should shut this forum now so we are not the last left in when the light is turned off (:)
But for all those Americans get over now its your chance to beat the pre-sale rush and end up with the left overs that did not sell :chuckle:
I feel sorry for our old mate Cuffy he is still saving his money to be in a good and stable position, and nobody has told him someones already shut the shop!! :-X
Eric, no parts of that report will be republished here without Andrews consent. That's it. I spend enough of my time taking action against others that steal my and/or this forums copyright, I will not see it done here to others. Quote all the quasi laws you want till you are blue in the face for all I care. :coffeeread:
I am not more in the business of Russian bride, not more married to Russian Bride, not more seeking Russian bride... i have give up... now, i simply date without border limit...
RW aren't all fluffy kittens, are they?
Westy, I don't want to argue for Andrew he is more than capable of doing it himself
My apologies Andrew so you don't sell fake Viagra, then it must be the fake Rolex watch brochures that I keep getting in email, so similar to your brochure. As I mentioned before I've downloaded and read your report that's what gave me the impression that you were an Internet marketer. The brochure was so much spam.
"Everyone,"
I've already announced publicly and privately to those with and without commercial interest that I'll be sharing my thoughts, criticism, and opinions about the work as I see fit. Furthermore those criticisms, praise, commentary and use of the authors own wo...... blah blah blah et al
No update is needed... i continue to date but choose the easy way, remain in the EU... within 1 hours car driving, i can reach Holland, UK, Germany, France and Luxemburg...
In my own country, we have 22% of foreign citizen from all around the world.
If i wish ex-USSR ladies, i can found them in EU... Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia are now EU state and i can make a trip to these country like you make a trip to a other US state.
These forum is called "Russian Ukrainian Adventures"... my actual "adventures" are European adventuresDo not for one second imagine that not being American makes you in some way immune to the processes now in play.
You are not.
The same memes that are becoming powerful in the USA exist in other places too.
Well, it will not happen in EU during my lifetime... here, everything political is very very slow ( 27 countries need to agree ).
A other thing, some of the tools needed for use something similar to the IMBRA don't exist... by example, we have no sex offender public registries... in fact any public offender registries will be illegal since it is again the privacy laws... more, any offender who have pay his mistake ( jail time, communauty service, ... ) will have a clean police report after some time... Here, we have laws related to domestic violence too but you are presumed innocent until proved guilty...
Point is that our legal system is so much different from these of the US that simply implement something like the IMBRA is almost impossible...
Well, there is enough back door in the laws for marriage agency to adapt a little and continue their business like normal... simply need to change a little the business model, not more sell contact information from FSU ladies to US citizen but sell services who can be used by everybody...
There is a need of solid statistical data who show that the IMBRA have a huge influence on the number of customer who can lead to the dead of the international marriage agency business... yes, there will be fewer customer... these not motivated enough, the listed in sex offender public registries, the who sponsor numerous marriage visa without being sure that they have found the right woman, these... in fact, the loss of customer will mainly be the low end customer...
He has asked for comments on the topic and I happen to have some personal expertise on the matter having dealt with immigrants over 10 years and speaking a second language that is extremely common with immigrants in the Vancouver area. Plus my ex is Chinese born and raised, not Russian but still any legislation wouldn't be based on specific countries.
You've got access and experience in this area, Westy. Don't waste it on ad hominem quips. Debate the report if you're so inclined. :)
Brass
Perhaps you might consider giving us a brief update on another thread. RW aren't all fluffy kittens, are they?
No update is needed... i continue to date but choose the easy way, remain in the EU... within 1 hours car driving, i can reach Holland, UK, Germany, France and Luxemburg...
In my own country, we have 22% of foreign citizen from all around the world.
If i wish ex-USSR ladies, i can found them in EU... Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia are now EU state and i can make a trip to these country like you make a trip to a other US state.
These forum is called "Russian Ukrainian Adventures"... my actual "adventures" are European adventures
IMBRA or Not - I really do not use agencies preferring professional introductions as a result of business meetings, seminars, networking etc... so unless they make business and trade between the FSU and USA illegal as in the old soviet times I really am not too worried in any way what so ever.
What he really needs to do is enforce the current rules, and slow immigration down so the staff can do a proper job in screening what any outsider can see is a fraud. Right now they simply don't have the manpower to do any of that.
Brass you know enough about the CIC, and from what I have followed by Minister Jason Kenney is that a IMBRA type regulation to protect the sponsored person/s is not going to happen. He wants to rid the system of non genuine marriages, and possibly protect the sponsor. While the problem isn't with eastern Europeans , it has much more to do with the 3 countries mentioned up above. What he really needs to do is enforce the current rules, and slow immigration down so the staff can do a proper job in screening what any outsider can see is a fraud. Right now they simply don't have the manpower to do any of that. What other country allows someone permanent landed status as soon as they land on Canada soil? ..... none.
Rarely do they even have a interview with the sponsored person. Restricting our movement abroad by banning us from having a relationship because of a 3rd party is ridiculous! CIC can't cope with the rules in place now, and there is no extra money that will flow into CIC, so its a mute point for us Canucks. Can't believe I'm even posting in this silly thread.
Besides, once the IMBRA type laws/regs were enacted the person seeking the relationship and agency facilitating it would shoulder the expense and time needed to satisfy the law. No skin off the CIC's back.
The thing is, I have yet to hear of anybody or any organization pushing for IMBRA-like laws. Yes, some academics and community groups will start worrying about mail-order brides, but once you actually tell them that Canadian laws are actually radically different from American laws (no fiancé visas, no requirements to stay married, permanent residence effectively given upon arrival with not conditional permanent residence, spouse legally responsible for providing financial assistance for three years, etc...) this usually addresses most of the issues. The focus then turns to educating women as to the rights they have as PR holders in Canada.
The fact that Canada has no conditional permanent residence status pretty much addresses most of the potential dangers that IMBRA is trying to minimize. The biggest fear expressed by those who worry about Canada's "mail-order brides" is that women marrying Canadians won't know their rights, notably the fact that they don't have to stay with their husbands. All Canada has to do to resolve this problem is to send a letter to all sponsored spouses in their language while still in their country telling them that they are under no obligation to stay with their spouses if things do not work out and that their spouse is financially responsible for them for three years.
IMHO, the one thing that would really kill the "Russian Bride Business" would be if the United States and other countries were to eliminate the fiancé visa and require that all applicants demonstrate that they have a legitimate marriage before being given a green card. This would dry up the market pretty quickly, as it did in Canada. This last round of reforms to Canada's immigration laws certainly tightened up the application process as we now have to provide a detailed account of how we met and provide proof that we had an established relationship. In other words, applicants for permanent residence with a spousal sponsorship must not provide much more evidence that they do not simply have a marriage of convenience.
So what's the real purpose behind all this, this, whatever this thing is?
-david
I wonder....How many times does 'Andrew Wilson, et.al." mention CIC in his report or the UK border agency? Anyone????Why don't you tell us Eric?
Brass, I started reading the report you posted and so far I have noticed some important issues:
1) Sweeping generalizations of MOB as human trafficking, probably based on biased reports. For example, Dr. Hughes of URI states that "Although some women may find the romance and opportunities they seek, many become victims of violence, sexual exploitation, and sex trafficking." It doesn't matter that the reference(s) for this statement is her own paper(s) regarding the sexual expoitation of MOB from the FSU. I wonder how she got her data.
2) The UN definition of human trafficking, according to the author, would very well apply to a well-to-do single American from another state vacationing in Florida; meeting an American waitress at the hotel he stays; hit it off; developing a relationship and getting married.
3) The MOB industry is responsible for this mayhem with its constant advertisement of "buying" (as 'include in shopping cart') a "traditional" woman that will submit to any man. Unfortunately, this kind of advert will attract the worse the US can offer.
4) Forums like this also add wood to the fire by disparaging AW as fat slob feminazis. For someone on the outside looking in this sounds as women hating, which it really is.
5) Success stories are swept under the rug and most probably would make any attempt to stiffle their experience as "the exception to the rule."
I could go on but you get the idea.
Regarding the IMB, I doubt very much they will disappear. Too much money for these guys let it go under.
Regarding the IMB, I doubt very much they will disappear. Too much money for these guys let it go under.
You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.
Regarding the IMB, I doubt very much they will disappear. Too much money for these guys let it go under.
You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.
How will it evolve? By utilizing and paying Andrew and his business partners as consultants?
Don posted something quite relevent to my premise though...In so many words he states ...started to read and tuned out ...this is why these laws and regs (in many countries) are being introduced.
You will not see extinction; you will see evolution. The industry will evolve. Those who read Andrews report will be here to witness that evolution in progress.
If you received the document, you will receive the next parts. More will be explained then.
That isn't WHY they are being introduced. It may be why they are being introduced more easily is all.
In the end is the business dead? No and never will be. If people can't find their match locally...they will begin to look further...and some small percentage will still look to FSU or beyond. IMBRA laws and their like or not.
The agency business model (US specifically, worldwide generally) in it's current form will not survive. I give it two years.
That is just change...hardly the death of an industry.
What's that saying? You get what you pay for?
Well, if you consider the current business model for the electric typewriter industry as 'change' rather than 'death' then I suppose you'd be correct.
A better comparison might be to that of tobacco perhaps? Being taxed more and forced to put warnings and pictures all over their packaging has not killed the industry. Merely shrunk it.
Or better yet...guns might be more appropriate. The government doesn't want you misusing guns just like they don't want you mistreating foreign brides. Therefore they make you jump through some hoops and put some laws in the way to make it harder for the undesirables to get those guns and/or brides. Less people will get guns and if the law is working as intended the undesireables will not.
Maybe not a bad thing for all three industries (to have watchdogs) but I'd suggest one of the three has nowhere near the resources the other two have. (imo)
What percentage?
Somehow I think the alluring beauty of the Russian women would still make western men look that direction. Maybe a few more would give up looking at the paperwork however.
What percentage?
Rhetorical, I know. However, it might depend on how big their US clientle (per Canadian based agency) is?Quote from: froidSomehow I think the alluring beauty of the Russian women would still make western men look that direction. Maybe a few more would give up looking at the paperwork however.
If the process is tightened up further, that old adage regarding airline security comes to mind; You absolutely have the right not to be screened prior to boarding - but you won't be getting on the airplane. ;D
Brass
If the process is tightened up further, that old adage regarding airline security comes to mind; You absolutely have the right not to be screened prior to boarding - but you won't be getting on the airplane. ;D
Brass
Maybe not on a plane but you can still take the Queen Mary 2 across the Atlantic.
You can also fly out of Mexico but we won't get into that.
When you have downloaded the document and digested the contents, you can use this topic for discussion about it.
QuoteWhen you have downloaded the document and digested the contents, you can use this topic for discussion about it.
Ok I used a garbage email account and signed up just to SEE. I didn't like the obvious internet marketing links and methods involved in getting it but hey, Manny can get his $1 off my curiosity and it's no skin off my back. So anyway downloaded it...read it and wasn't impressed since it had no details at all and no substance beyond what was already thrown around here in the forums. Just looked like the usual teaser marketing with more coming later. On top of it I surfed down to some of the original domains just to look as well and found even more internet marketing icky stuff. If you ask ME...that is the REAL dirty barrel. I especially liked the name of the "program" involved...The List Virus...virus indeed. Quick call a doctor the forum is infected!
Anyway with all this talk of copyrights and quoted text being removed here there and everywhere I found this site to be the most enlightening...
www.thedeathofadsense.com (http://www.thedeathofadsense.com)
Andrew is there a reason you basically did a search and replace job from this other website? Just replacing "Adsense" with "Russian Bride". The design, format, layout and much of the text is identical. Is this considered fair use? Just wondering. Hell I got real curious and even downloaded the report on Adsense as well. Looks like you did a better job replacing the text from that one. Shame you still copied the format, section headings and style. Does the original author know about your new site?
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention. Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil. Is this legal?
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention. Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil. Is this legal?
It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention. Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil. Is this legal?
It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.
Paul what you're saying is that Andrew's website isn't a slick, creative site but a quick copy and paste job.
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention. Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil. Is this legal?
It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.
Paul what you're saying is that Andrew's website isn't a slick, creative site but a quick copy and paste job.
It looks like Andrew and the adsense site are using a get-rich-quick by writing articles internet company called "The List Virus", which does not offer its customers many options.
Using the same template and intro text is nothing to get worked up over.
If the process becomes too lengthy/difficult (untenable), it becomes unprofitable ...
Froid you're right Andrew's website does look amazing like the one you mention. Andrew even copied the skeleton, just adding a bridal veil. Is this legal?
It looks like they are using the same template from the same marketing company. It's quite common and no big deal. There are a number of "photography business" based hosts that do this.
Paul what you're saying is that Andrew's website isn't a slick, creative site but a quick copy and paste job.
It looks like Andrew and the adsense site are using a get-rich-quick by writing articles internet company called "The List Virus", which does not offer its customers many options.
Using the same template and intro text is nothing to get worked up over.
If the process becomes too lengthy/difficult (untenable), it becomes unprofitable ...
Now sure that it is true... more lenghty process mean more letter exchange and traduction work...
These big marriages agency are business... mean that they seek money... a US guy who date a FSU girl use a lot of money who go directly in the wallet of the marriage agency... once married, no more money go to the marriage agency...
Of course, there is these few ethical marriage agency, with only a few ladies that they interview personal ( bad business choice, it is so easy to use a web form without any control ), and who earn very little money, who really seek to create a couple ( again, bad business choice since a marriage mean a loss of customer )... these will maybe die, all the best for the big business...
I will not worry to much for the agency... Because of the IMBRA, they will be able to double charge US man because of some administrative cost... a good business man will never have problem to find a way to suck more money from their customer... it will not surprise me that several of the owner from MOB business are alien themself, from Ferenginar !!!
Paul,
If the website is a template, what about the text in Part 1 if the series of the adsence advertorial? Were there any similarities there?
If the immigration process becomes too lengthy/difficult, whether due to renewed enforcement of IMBRA laws/regs in the US or similar laws/regs in other countries, then the men seeking an overseas relationship might abandon the endeavor effecting the profit margins for the agencies resulting in their going out of business.
This note argues that the foreign bride industry constitutes human trafficking under international law and calls for both immediate legal reforms and the ultimate criminalisation and prosecution of foreign bride trafficking.
the brokering of foreign brides via "international marriage brokers (IMB's)" or "international marriage broker traffickers (IMB-T's)" (used interchangeably), to men in the United States.
Achieving the ultimate goal of prohibiting and criminalising the foreign bride industry as trafficking under US law.
Andrew--
If fingerprinting and criminal background checks are actually to be used,they could more logically be done at the time when a visa is applied for, not merely when someone seeks to contact someone else initially. Since foreign-owned agencies don't come under the purview of IMBRA, to give just one glaring example, the present law seems to only discriminate against American-owned ones.
In your case, I think it was a tactical mistake to avoid specific references, and to mis-characterize the State laws on the subject. Five States among fifty are not exactly "Many" States, after all. If they are beginning to finally be enforced, that is actually a rather new phenomenon--and it isn't too hard to say that as your original meaning and not be so easily misconstrued at the cost of your believability.
Tell me now that the foreign bride industry isn't under direct attack from various elements in the US. :scared0005: It does have an impact for non-Americans too because the industry in its current form relies on the US as the major market. Without US clients the industry in its current form dies. The US is over 80% of the market. Thus: "The Russian Bride Business is Dead" as the report is called might be termed "critical and about to go on life support".
I was chatting online with a bloke about the fingerprinting issue. At first he saw no problem, then I asked him this question:
'In normal life who gives their fingerprints to the police?'
The answer came back almost without hesitation: 'criminals and those suspected of commiting crime'
People who have not visited this, or any other forum, for years have visited and joined the discussion.
In just a few days this thread, and others elsewhere have grown from nothing to many pages and the readership, in the thousands, has been way beyond my expectations.
You do not have to like the manner of presentation but as long as we have hundreds of downloads, thousands of readers and significant extra traffic all focused upon the topic then I will not worry too much that some people's aesthetic sensibilities are not fully satisfied.
Do you have statistical numbers who confirm your claim that the US is over 80% of the market ?
It is a number I came up with based on geographic data from our book sales, my wife's work over several years and the member demographic here.
Based on book sales alone: The English speaking market is mostly the US followed by Canada. Runners up are the UK and Australia. The rest can be categorised as "others".
That said, I know the Benelux, Germany, France, Scandinavia, Austria and Switzerland are large markets too. But most of the mega agencies are US based or US facing.
Do you have a different view Bruno, as a multi lingual Benelux resident ex-agency owner?
Bruno, as you and others have noted, exact numbers are difficult to find.
The skill of the analyst lies in being able to see a pattern from as little data as possible
The direction of the social, political and legal environment for IMBs in both the USA and much of the rest of the world is becoming clear.
What I am trying to do is to help make the direction clear to stakeholders in the IMB business and to try to formulate a means of dealing with the changes.
As to the relative sizes of different national markets, I do not think this is particularly important. It'd be hard to argue that, partly because of language, the US led section of the industry is the most significant. Also, we need to remember that the 'stock in trade' the women are, on the whole agnostic, as to their destination. The same women, probably not an order of magnitude away from 100,000 in the FSU is featured on websites in English, Spanish, German, French and maybe Chinese and Japanese. The goal of these women is self export.
However, given what I understand of visa numbers for the USA and other relevant data and estimates, I'd suggest that in terms of destination the market is about 30% to the US and 70% to everywhere else, which, almost certainly, makes the US the largest player in terms of destinations and in terms of 'buyers' and 'tyre kickers' I think that there can be little doubt that the English speaking market, led by the US, is overwhelmingly English speaking and US based.
The goal of these women is not really self export but more trade up... and some of them have already a idea to where they wish to go... sometime, in add, you can read "not from US", "from Germany", "not Muslim", "from AU", etc... again, some statistical study is needed...
FWIW, it sounds to me me as if Bruno has a much more realistic handle on the MOB market than Andy and his report full of skewed hysteria.
for instance, in Norway, most of the natives are well versed in English and there are way more RW that know English than Norwegian. I personally know RW with Norwegian husbands and they use English as a couple.
Would anyone here seriously be upset if the agencies which hire "web cam girls" who are only interested in having men pay big money to "chat" with them were to be gone from the scene?
I believe at least some of the next wave of operating types will appear sooner rather than later.
... i am pretty sure that he have some hidden agenda who will be revealed at a later date... the rapport is only the first one, who know what he will write in the following parts...
Unless I am mistaken, this is one of the fundamental issues that Andrew is trying to address. The relative size of US versus non-US customers is something of an unnecessary diversion.
Consider: let's take Bruno's suggested figure of perhaps fifteen or twenty per cent of all customers for a moment.... if fifteen to twenty per cent of the clientele should disappear, can they survive to serve the other eighty to eighty-five percent?
If the agencies are marginally profitable now -- and according to many in the industry that seems to be the case for many --
Another question, though, is whether many agencies *deserve* to survive in anything approaching their current form. As we all know, many are already extremely questionable operations at best. Many folks on these boards would not at all bemoan the disappearance of many of these agencies--and, frankly, I am probably in that camp at least regarding those who engage in wholesale misrepresentation and scamming. I would shed no tears at all if every pay-per-letter or high-priced video (s)cam operation were to be gone tomorrow if not sooner.
Would anyone here seriously be upset if the agencies which hire "web cam girls" who are only interested in having men pay big money to "chat" with them were to be gone from the scene?
Many of us already know exactly what the agenda is and who is involved. We cant talk about it though, that would be ‘silly’.
Why the "can't talk" ? Is it not "silly" to show the russian bride business being dead ? Since i have no idea of the hidden agenda and who is involved, i will wait until the next rapport for continue post comment in these topic... It is "silly" to comment about a book where you have only the first chapter...
As I was watching TV last night, there were commercials for eHarmony, Match.com, and Plenty of Fish in ONE show. I guess the financial downturn applies only to "foreign" sites. Which brings me to this question.
Why is it that there's never been a TV commercial for AFA, AWeb, etc.?
As I was watching TV last night, there were commercials for eHarmony, Match.com, and Plenty of Fish in ONE show. I guess the financial downturn applies only to "foreign" sites. Which brings me to this question.
Why is it that there's never been a TV commercial for AFA, AWeb, etc.?
Now Andrew has made his report available to those who don't want to give an email address, has that addressed the concerns of those folks here who thought it was an email phishing exercise or pyramid scheme of some kind?
Another subject that is interlaced with this one is this: If we are agreed that the MOB industry in its current form is likely to be more regulated in the future, you will agree that the industry is going to have to reform in some way.
Many guys dislike the existing business models that exist; what form do you think the industry should take in the future? What would you like to see? How do you see the future?
‘MOB’ type C – ‘Free but pay for additional privileges’
The leading example here would be Mamba. It’s free to use but you can opt to pay for addition privileges that can make search and communication a little more easier. There is no direct fraud.
"The Mail-Order-Bride Trade Is Flourishing" in Bloomberg Businessweek. I guess that ends any arguments over the death of the Russian Bride business.
Actually, demand for online dating sites seems to be growing. There are signs that during recession or economic hard times people tend to do stuff at home. Online social networking of all kinds is on the up and up.
I remember a few years ago that Satellite TV (in the UK) became very popular at the lower end of the socio-economic scale because, costly though it might have seemed to some, it was actually a very cheap form of entertainment for those who must stay at home. Nowadays, I think that the internet is reaching to the same demographic and service providers are advertising to get a slice of that pie.
Any mod have an idea where my post of 7th of Jan 2011 went? - It was removed and restored, but it has been removed AGAIN
:offtopic: PS: indirectly related to FSU meeting... for EU guys who go to the FSU after the 17 jan 2011 for meet their lady... no more need of credit card ( Visa, American Express, etc ... ) for the country in green in the pic below, usual EU bankcard/debit card with chips will work in ATM and bank... max amount are 620 euro for ATM by 4 days period and 5000 euro by week for bank... again a little detail who will ease the process for EU men...
Ah, yes David, do some agencies 'deserve' to survive?
A bloody good question!
I discuss some of these issues in the report. (If one had wanted one could have churned out huge volumes, but who'd read it?) http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-4
The industry, overall has lost a huge amount of trust from the paying punters and any business that is going to survive is going to need to have trust between the major stakeholders.
In my opinion, dishonesty does not, in the long term engender trust nor transparency and thus businesses that are not honest will fail.
But there is another issue, related to this.
When times get hard, as they are undoubtedly doing for many of the businesses in both the US and the FSU, there is a tendency for businesses, both small and large, to play 'beggar my neighbour'. A game where businesses and their personnel will seek to gain a comparative advantage by impugning other participants and competitors. We have been seeing this on forums such as this one, another forum and predecessors for some years.
I have learned that seeing this type of behavior is an indicator that a business, or sector, is in trouble.
You've lost me there. I have been using my debit card ....
'People' took a screen grab just in case 'someone' suggested that they were 'crazy' :chuckle:
Vinny, if you don't agree then you refute with evidence. That is now YOUR job. ;)
Have fun.
It is hard to discuss with you when you have not yet figured out the difference between fact and opinion. Just because you agree with an opinion stated by a person, in this case me, does not make it a fact. ;)
In order to start you off here is a link that discusses merchantilism (or as the article suggests a modern day counterpart in corporatism) which is a more technical term for 'beggar my neighbour'.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fca56f34-b154-11df-b899-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ASJvXMw2
Whilst I do know of some examples of large scale merchantilism in the IMB niche I don't think I can share them, smaller scale examples abound and given that most players in this business are relatively small, they do seem appropriate, so, yes, look to forums both old and new for examples within the Russian bride niche and remember that not all players of this game are easily identifiable as service provider principals. ;)
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update
Doesn't work. Get 'Error establishing a database connection' error message.
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update
I watched your vid Andrew. Is my sound system playing up or was someone urinating in the pool whilst you were speaking? ???
This afternoon I uploaded a new video and updated the andrewwilsonnews.com site here: http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-update
I watched your vid Andrew. Is my sound system playing up or was someone urinating in the pool whilst you were speaking? ???
I think its a fountain to create ambience beside thatEstonianpalm tree. :nod:
Looked like Espanol to me, I recognised the compulsory pool tiles and decorative breeze blocks. Might even be Mount Montgo in the background. A wild guess but I'm usually right. tiphat
Vinny, if you don't agree then you refute with evidence. That is now YOUR job. ;)
Have fun.
I’m sorry, my understanding was that you wanted to enter into debate regarding your report. Clearly I misunderstood. What is it that you precisely want me to do, provide evidence that Russian Brides are NOT dead, the business of matching up men and women from the Former Soviet Republics is NOT dead and all involved are NOT criminals? Isnt it YOUR job to support YOUR own claims or is the reality that your report is not actually open for discussion?
Andrew, Brass and 1 or 2 other forum members think that I am being too hard on you by equating your report with the Viagra or fake Rolex spam most people get in their email boxes. I'm now going to tell you and others why I'm not being hard enough on you and your report.
One forum member brought up the point that your report is double spaced and uses a large type font. I see nothing wrong with this, in fact some organizations insist on this type of spacing and font size. It simply makes it easier to read the report either on screen or when printed out.
First thing to consider is what is how is a research report organized? This link (http://portal.acs.org/portal/fileFetch/C/CTP_005606/pdf/CTP_005606.pdf) gives the sections that are customary in a research report. The sections are:
• Title
• Abstract
• Introduction
• Experimental Details or Theoretical Analysis
• Results
• Discussion
• Conclusions and Summary
• References
<extensive snipage of very good analysis
The more I read about this the more it sounds like a con job.
The more I read about this the more it sounds like a con job.
No Muzh_1, I believe you are wrong. I sure Andrew has been very busy lately but soon he will find the time to come back and examine and explore other contributors comments and observations here which will then be the prelude for us to enter into a serious, pragmatic, logical and and realistic debate into the current state of the MOB business and the WM/FSUW dating scene in general.
We're a tough audience and Andrew knows it. Please allow him time to assimilate and ingest our postings prior to him penning his considered and in-depth thoughts and response. :popcorn:
I sure Andrew has been very busy lately but soon he will find the time to come back and examine and explore other contributors comments and observations here which will then be the prelude for us to enter into a serious, pragmatic, logical and and realistic debate into the current state of the MOB business and the WM/FSUW dating scene in general.
Page 6, second paragraph, you speak of "the declining supply of women" wanting to leave the FSU for life abroad. Again no reference, just your word. Even worse a recently published article in Businessweek has as its title "The Mail-Order-Bride Trade is Flourishing". Why would anyone believe your article when an article in an online magazine that regularly interviews CEOs fortune 500 companies states exactly the opposite?
BTW, this is my 501 post. I was expecting some sort of fireworks a la end of solitaire game on Windows.
I sure Andrew has been very busy lately but soon he will find the time to come back and examine and explore other contributors comments and observations here which will then be the prelude for us to enter into a serious, pragmatic, logical and and realistic debate into the current state of the MOB business and the WM/FSUW dating scene in general.
I have suggested as such actually. :nod:
Quote from: WestyPage 6, second paragraph, you speak of "the declining supply of women" wanting to leave the FSU for life abroad. Again no reference, just your word. Even worse a recently published article in Businessweek has as its title "The Mail-Order-Bride Trade is Flourishing". Why would anyone believe your article when an article in an online magazine that regularly interviews CEOs fortune 500 companies states exactly the opposite?
Westy,
Always, always, always check your sources/corroborative links, eh?
Now, Andrew doesn't really need me to answer to your post, he'll be able to that quite adequately himself as most of what you've questioned is already answered on this topic but seeing as you've decided to mention my (user) name, I'll answer to one or two if/when time permits:
Alright, the [edit : Businessweek] article - Or should I type the complete article:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/
And Mr. Weiner's take on what an international relationship/marriage is all about:
"For some companies, such submissiveness is a selling point. Hand-In-Hand's website trumpets the fact that its females are "unspoiled by feminism." Company founder Weiner argues this form of chauvinism — like the mail-order bride business itself — is economically motivated. "You take a beautiful woman from the Czech Republic and you bring her into your home, she does all your cooking and cleaning and ironing," he says. "At the end of the day, the service is free." Hand-In-Hand estimates the potential savings of a homemaking wife at $150 per week."
...Well that's just great. Please, keep linking these type of guys/owners as examples of the MOB 'industry' booming and Ill re adjust my estimate until the industry's demise (in it's current form) from two years to 12 months.
On to the "business is booming" statement. I bet it is, however, Mr Weiner sells franchise opportunities. Apparently, for a measly $16,000. to $20,000. (unknown if USD or Pounds Sterling) you too can own a home based marriage agency and seems he's sold a few.
http://www.gaebler.com/Hand-In-Hand.htm
http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200805/1210437431.html
I'm still looking into the franchise reviews (as a business) but I'm really not able to find anything (other than several Joe Weiner articles and websites) positive at all. A fair amount of "scam" articles and posts regarding Mr. Weiner and his agency but that's not my focus right now.
How does this tie into this topic (as put forward by yourself)? Well, Mr. Weiner would tell you business is booming as he was heading to the barrister to file bankruptcy-that's how. He's selling the business/industry itself, it's in his best interest to tell all those potential franchise owners out there in MOB land that business is good or he'd be cutting his own (business) throat.
I'm sorry to inform you it's your linked article that's the example of a not a very well researched paper, Westy. :chuckle:
Anyways, if/when I can dig up actual info on just how successful these individual franchises have been/are, I'll post it.
Brass
Brass you didn't mention the section in the article that dealt with AFA and their "nearly 1,000 engagements this year" or how "International matchmakers are now a growing segment of the U.S. online dating industry".
You also had no comment about my statements on Andrew's near total lack of supporting sources for his many statements in his "research report". If you consider the Businessweek article "a not a very well researched paper" then what is your opinion of Andrew's "research report"? A "research report" that mostly doesn't bother to list supporting documentation for his statements, some of which I listed in my previous post.
Very perceptive of you Brass, good work. Of course Mr Weiner has a commercial interest in telling us that business in on the up, but we shouldn't hold that spin against him, its normal.
Given your new findings could you conceive that the opposite might also be applicable and that when someone tells us the 'end is nigh' then there may also be a commercial incentive present for them to do so? I am reminded of the latter part of the last century when I was inundated with guys who assured me that come Jan 1st 2000 my business would go ‘BOOM’ unless I hired their very expensive services. Fortunately I dug a bit deeper and fortunately for me my initial scientism was right. IIRC I paid about £50 to have my date format extended and lived to tell the tale. Of course to a certain degree they we're correct in so much as I had to do something but it wasn't quite as catastrophic as they wanted me to believe.
Westcoast, take it from me, the number of men looking at pictures of pretty 'Russian' girls is increasing. As a proportion of the booming online dating realm I sincerely doubt that the IMB business is matching that growth.
Do AFA have almost 1000 'engagements' per year?
First, I'd want to know what they mean by engagement! Is that the number of people who in the words of some agencies 'commit' to each other? Or is it the number of men who end up filling out K-1 visa applications per year, or is it the number of K-1s issues to AFA clients?
The thing is that most people in the FSU don't get 'engaged' as people do in the US. The process is much shorter in timeframe and much more direct.
Next, what is the figure for marriages?
There is a reason why AFA use the term 'engagements' and that is because it is MUCH greater in pretty much whatever terms you might choose to use than the number of marriages! I somehow doubt that AFA is responsible for the generation of around 3% of the K1 visas issued each year. ;)
Westcoast why on earth should Brass be expected to review what I wrote for you? Are you not a big enough boy to form your own opinion?
In the end, no matter whether I referenced everything as you learned at nightschool or college, the point is surely to discuss the issues raised and they are not exactly unclear are they? Surely to bang on about the format is silly waste of time and just noise making.
Do YOU agree with the proposition that the Russian bride business is in trouble or not?
If not, why not?
Does the current social, legal, economic and political environment tend to foster a growing and vibrant industry? If so how does that work exactly?
If you agree with the proposition I made then going on about the headings that you would have used if you wrote something you did not write is not moving the discussion forward, is it?
My point is to show that your research report is not a research report but a piece of spam that you are using to make a buck. I don't begrudge people earning a living but when they produce spam and call it a research report worthy of comprehensive discussion then I feel obligated to point out the shortcomings of thespamresearch report.
Another reason that I don't think the Russian bride business is not in trouble is the increase in computer availability and the Internet in the FSU. Add to this the development of Russian language sites, some of which are dating or matchmaking sites. This has been mentioned on RUA, another forum and RMP. I've even browsed through several of the sites. True I didn't understand most of the posts because they were in Russian, but there was more English than I would have thought. Not just English, but fluent, native English, obviously from a westerner. Perhaps the Russian bride business isn't in decline but moving is several, different directions?
Andrew, Brass and 1 or 2 other forum members think that I am being too hard on you by equating your report with the Viagra or fake Rolex spam most people get in their email boxes. I'm now going to tell you and others why I'm not being hard enough on you and your report.
One forum member brought up the point that your report is double spaced and uses a large type font. I see nothing wrong with this, in fact some organizations insist on this type of spacing and font size. It simply makes it easier to read the report either on screen or when printed out.
First thing to consider is what is how is a research report organized? This link (http://portal.acs.org/portal/fileFetch/C/CTP_005606/pdf/CTP_005606.pdf) gives the sections that are customary in a research report. The sections are:
• Title
• Abstract
• Introduction
• Experimental Details or Theoretical Analysis
• Results
• Discussion
• Conclusions and Summary
• References
<extensive snipage of very good analysis
Westy. I should say thank you, any person who has done any kind of research should know this by heart.
So, can we call this "report" a commercial (ad) for the MOB?
My point is to show that your research report is not a research report but a piece of spam that you are using to make a buck. I don't begrudge people earning a living but when they produce spam and call it a research report worthy of comprehensive discussion then I feel obligated to point out the shortcomings of thespamresearch report.
How can something be spam when giving an email address is optional, further mailings can be opted out of, and it can be read without giving an email anyway? ???
How can someone make a buck by paying a buck per download?Quote from: WestyAnother reason that I don't think the Russian bride business is not in trouble is the increase in computer availability and the Internet in the FSU. Add to this the development of Russian language sites, some of which are dating or matchmaking sites. This has been mentioned on RUA, another forum and RMP. I've even browsed through several of the sites. True I didn't understand most of the posts because they were in Russian, but there was more English than I would have thought. Not just English, but fluent, native English, obviously from a westerner. Perhaps the Russian bride business isn't in decline but moving is several, different directions?
Now you are thinking a little! Hold those thoughts and expand on them....... how should the industry evolve in your armchair opinion?
Manny please note that I said that Andrew's research report is "like" or "similar" to spam.
Andrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.
As for the dollar how am I suppose to receive it, please tell me how he's going to send it to me? Nothing in my email about sending him my home address or Paypal info.
Quote from: WestyAndrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.
No email address is required.
I think what some of the critics of the report are missing is that the US government is slowly but surely taking a stand against the foreign bride industry as a whole. People have cited that reference to older laws that have not been enforced have been made and the information presented as "new". I see that of course, and I see why some of the sources Andrew has used to date have been criticised. But he has further parts to come.
When I first heard that legislative changes are on the way in the US (which was a few months back), these states mentioned were given as an example of laws that can be woken up in a heartbeat when the political will dictates it.
Another subject that is interlaced with this one is this: If we are agreed that the MOB industry in its current form is likely to be more regulated in the future, you will agree that the industry is going to have to reform in some way.
Seriously Vinny, if you disagree with the thrust of my argument, that the Russian bride business is not in difficulty, that disruptive change is not coming then tell me, how is that not so?
Quote from: WestyAndrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.
No email address is required.
Manny what do you mean no email is required? Remember this http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/index.html it was one of your posts on December 29, 2010, at 01:33:32 PM. There's no address required now because most members complained.
Quote from: WestyAndrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.
No email address is required.
Manny what do you mean no email is required? Remember this http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/index.html it was one of your posts on December 29, 2010, at 01:33:32 PM. There's no address required now because most members complained.
...Which would mean * no email address is required *, unless I'm mistaken, Westy. Off on a bit of a jag aren't you? :chuckle:
They were going back and forth about how someone was going to collect their wooden nickels from Andrew if he didn't have any of the readers information to pay them with.
Quote from: WestyAndrew wouldn't provide his "research report" without submission of an email address, that alone should have raised enough red flags.
No email address is required.
Manny what do you mean no email is required? Remember this http://www.andrewwilsonnews.com/index.html it was one of your posts on December 29, 2010, at 01:33:32 PM. There's no address required now because most members complained.
...Which would mean * no email address is required *, unless I'm mistaken, Westy. Off on a bit of a jag aren't you? :chuckle:
Westy said:
"Manny you didn't answer my post about your criminal record and Eduard's criminal record. Andrew's research report says all people involved in the Russian bride business are criminals."
Brass in this single post of yours you supplied more information than Andrew had in his entire "research report". How long did this research take you? Obviously Andrew didn't take even that much time for his research report.
As for this group having an interest in the MOB and defining it in some way that you and I would find wrong, that's free speech in action. I've actually heard worse, my ex has been involved with many different people when doing her immigration work. I've been asked to leave the room several times because some group doesn't want a man hearing them speak.
I spent years in banking and my ex is a lawyer both careers that some people and groups have very negative views of, you were a soldier another career that attracts negative comments from some people. It is a free country and some people take a little more liberty than others with their free speech.
"However, I haven't heard about any changes in the immigration system in Canada that would outlaw or criminalize the mail order bride business and with the number of Asians and Indians living in greater Vancouver if something was going on it would make the news. As for the US I haven't seen anything on RUA, another forum or RMP about impediments that IMBRA or the other legislation have introduced into the marriages of women and met meeting through EM or other marriage agencies."
"Brass I just can't find anything in Andrew's research report that qualifies it as anything other than spam or fantasy."
If you're talking about the "making a buck" post above, that was in reference to spam. As in spam by definition is designed/produced to generate money, not give it away. :-X
If you're talking about the "making a buck" post above, that was in reference to spam. As in spam by definition is designed/produced to generate money, not give it away. :-X
Baloney. Spam does not at all have to be commercial. As Wikipedia puts it (to give just one example):
"Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic)
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.
As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.
Andrew & Manny, what say you?
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.
As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.
Andrew & Manny, what say you?
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.
As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.
Andrew & Manny, what say you?
There's a fairly widespread rumour out there that suggests that RUA has been acquired by HRB and that this "report" and the up and coming sequels are in some way linked to HRB's new business, a business, fwiw, with no IMBRA requirements a la "Planet Love Match". This theory ties in quite nicely with the appearance of HRB-CEO here and Andrew's subsequent trip to their head office.
As I've yet to see an absolute and explicit denial that there is a link with HRB and HRB's CEO anywhere even though I and others have asked I think some if not all of the conjecture could hold water.
Andrew & Manny, what say you?
Depends which rumour you listen to Ade. A couple of weeks ago it was HRB, this week the revised version I heard was AFA. :chuckle: A couple of months ago a few one post wonders were trolling the net claiming another forum had been bought by Anastasia. Most of these rumours can be traced back to a certain ancient Greek who is banned from most sites and spends most of his days pecking at his keyboard, in his tinfoil hat, making stuff like this up for fun. :coffeeread:
Don't believe everything you hear.
The industry is changing, but it's not in difficulty. That's like claiming the retail industry is in difficulty because Wal-Mart moved into town and the mom & pop hardware store closed.
-david
Vinny, I don't have lots of free time, and I did.
Have a nice day.
The industry is changing, but it's not in difficulty. That's like claiming the retail industry is in difficulty because Wal-Mart moved into town and the mom & pop hardware store closed.
-david
Hmm... wanna ask some smaller retailers about how THEY see the retail industry?
Wanna ask some big box retailers how they see the retail industry?
So, yes, if what you are saying is that everything is OK because a vibrant market structure becomes an oligopolistic and moribund structure then fine, we would be in perfect agreement; but as I said, before you say that all is ok, just go ask the 'mom and pop' businesses what they think. ;)
There is much that NEEDS to change in this business but to suggest that everything is OK and situation normal is just nuts.
I confess that I don't see how relevant the ownership of this forum is to the work that I have done. Stuart has told you explicitly, and it ain't hard to figure out, that he is an affiliate for AFA (along with Elena's Models and my project!) You will also see ad units that are carrying ads provided by Google's Adsense programme.
Why on earth should you think that you deserve or have a right to know the inner workings of Manny's business.
BTW everybody reading this! ~ After just a few days, the term "death of a Russian bride" now has some 28,000 references in Google's index, it was almost zero before the launch of the report.
The viral element of the promotion has kicked in with over 30% of signups to download the report resulting from referrals from people who had themselves downloaded the report.
Best of all, for all the whining from those who think that email is just such a dreadful thing to receive, the opt in rate from the page at www.andrewwilsonnews.com is just shy of 92%, so, only 8% of ALL the people visiting that page for the first time do NOT sign up to receive the report. And that, even though I have in several places, including this thread, published a list of links where people can read the document without giving up an email address. ;)
Hmm... wanna ask some smaller retailers about how THEY see the retail industry?
Wanna ask some big box retailers how they see the retail industry?
So, yes, if what you are saying is that everything is OK because a vibrant market structure becomes an oligopolistic and moribund structure then fine, we would be in perfect agreement; but as I said, before you say that all is ok, just go ask the 'mom and pop' businesses what they think. ;)
There is much that NEEDS to change in this business but to suggest that everything is OK and situation normal is just nuts.
I confess that I don't see how relevant the ownership of this forum is to the work that I have done. Stuart has told you explicitly, and it ain't hard to figure out, that he is an affiliate for AFA (along with Elena's Models and my project!) You will also see ad units that are carrying ads provided by Google's Adsense programme.
Of course there's always relevance when there's a possibility of vested interest. Why on earth should I have to point that out? Really Andrew, you and Manny have been, or at least appear to have been, more than a little disingenuous when it comes to your report and to its/your links with certain IMBs.
Why on earth should you think that you deserve or have a right to know the inner workings of Manny's business.
Please show me where I ever said that I deserve anything. Go on, you know you want to. Oh and please, while you are at it, stop putting words into my mouth. Okay?
Having said that, without transparency, conspiracies tend to propagate. Of course, perhaps there are reasons not to be transparent; perhaps a lot of people would be hard pressed to trust anyone linked to AFA-type businesses just because of the scam/rip-off associations.
Big difference in stats.
Andrew I was just checking to see if your spelling error on your research report is still there and guess what it still is. The HTML version of your report has a spelling error at the top of http://andrewwilsonnews.com/death-of-a-russian-bride-8, fingerprinted is spelled "finger printed". Your report has been available in this form for at least a week with the spelling error for all to see, obviously you are placing little value in your work.
The new article you posted http://www.aprilwrites.com/articles/community/LoveforSale.pdf it states "Mail-order brides are three times more likely to suffer abuse than in the general
population". Your report says that these same women suffer abuse at "1% of women" in international marriages in the US. Big difference in stats.
Even as poorly researched as it is, it still took time and effort on your part to create and distribute
I have researched and written a report. Now if you had said I have taken an online marketing tool and used it to publish some ideas about IMBRA in order to build a bigger email list of people interested in the subject then I wouldn't bother to mention this.
Froid, then what have you been bashing away at your keyboard for? We use tools to accomplish a result, you were criticizing me for having done so, go read your own words, or maybe ask your wife to help you if it is too difficult for you. You wrote the words, I made the mistake of assuming you knew what they meant when you did so.
QuoteFroid, then what have you been bashing away at your keyboard for? We use tools to accomplish a result, you were criticizing me for having done so, go read your own words, or maybe ask your wife to help you if it is too difficult for you. You wrote the words, I made the mistake of assuming you knew what they meant when you did so.
I wont bother commenting on another of your insults since you are "protected" here by your business dealings with Manny. I am glad to find out why it is that I always thought this forum was too close to "slimy internet spam marketing". In the scheme of things the internet has it's own dirty barrel and that is that of internet marketers.
Since you like to use tools and templates I suppose that THIS brilliant work was also yours?
http://russianwomenbook.com/ (http://russianwomenbook.com/)
Which would fit right in with your modus operandi.
http://www.milliondollarauthorprogram.com/yourcopy/ (http://www.milliondollarauthorprogram.com/yourcopy/)
If you employ a workman, do you inspect the brand of hammer he uses?
Eric, without going to check with one of your best loved online resources, or even a book, what do YOU think empirical means?
Froid, then what have you been bashing away at your keyboard for? We use tools to accomplish a result, you were criticizing me for having done so, go read your own words, or maybe ask your wife to help you if it is too difficult for you. You wrote the words, I made the mistake of assuming you knew what they meant when you did so. ;D
QuoteEven as poorly researched as it is, it still took time and effort on your part to create and distribute
What time and effort? He took someone else's report and webpage and used the design, style, headings and even a lot of the text to create what is obviously his magnum opus. A magnum opus which is in fact only online regurgitation.
12 posts removed - Obsessive trolling.
Brass
12 posts removed - Obsessive trolling.
Brass
Don't you mean '12 posts removed - Not conducive to Andrew's marketing campaign'? :coffeeread:
12 posts removed - Obsessive trolling.
Brass
I just wanna ask why Voyager & Shakey are staying out of this thread when they're the moderators... :duh:
I just wanna ask why Voyager & Shakey are staying out of this thread when they're the moderators.
ROTFLMAO!!
quote:
"international marriages have doubled in the last decade . . ."
/end quote
Bloomberg Business Weekly
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/
So much for the demise of the business! A couple of you folks need to get out from in front of the keyboard more often.
In the heydays of international dating, any drooling mutant could meet his smoking-hot fiancee at JFK. (I know; I watched the sad drama play out dozens of times.) Nowadays, one's options have shrunken to a fraction of what they were back then, even if one has every aspect of the process honed to perfection.
Perhaps it's escaped everyone's attention that the current trend is to cater to the sex-chatters who never intend to visit. Ten years ago, nothing but scam agencies would do such a thing. Now, thanks to IMBRA, it has become the usual business model. If this isn't death...
As far as using a template, I am sure when they wanted to start RUA they did not put any thought into coding their own forum software so I don't see that as a big deal.
Bad example. A forum and it's underlying software is in no way a comparison to a cut-n-paste report full of bad data, bad taste and bad conclusions.
-david
This chart is from USCIS statistics and got a bit screwed up in the copy-and-paste process. Nonetheless, it's pretty clear that K visas peaked between 2004 and 2007 but have been dropping off since. Bloomberg's misleading comment is an excellent example of how statistics can be abused by trash journalists.
I won't comment further on your statement about trash journalists abusing statistics . . . :laugh: :laugh:
QUACK!
-david
and IMBRA has killed it, How??
and IMBRA has killed it, How??
Because unpleasant facts are thrust into a girl's face before a man has chance to sell himself.
(These are extreme examples, but I think that you get my point.)
This is a gray area. The above memorandum specifies 'convictions' but goes on to give an example of reporting an arrest, even though there was no conviction.
No, not really. Men are not being asked if he had a vasectomy, was treated for herpes, etc.
Both, men and women, are being asked for records, including criminal. The only difference is that men have to provide them upfront and women later on when they apply for a visa. From where I sit, men have more to lose because let's say that they establish a relationship and suddenly he finds out she has a criminal record. All that wasted time.
With men, they'll know that the woman is willing to live with his imprefetions.
I bloody well know that men aren't being asked about altered plumbing, std treatment (or about prostitute usage).
(''A simple but incredibly powerful premise drives [the IMBRA] provisions: that this information can help a woman help herself, help her save herself or her child from becoming the next victim of a predatory abuser. Through this information and other safeguards, this important legislation will help prevent those intent on doing women harm from perverting and subverting both the institution of marriage and the immigration process to find new victims overseas.''). Despite these good faith intentions, it is critical to note that IMBRA covers K visa petitions only. Thus, a predatory Petitioner could circumvent IMBRA by traveling overseas to marry the Foreign Beneficiary and subsequently filing an I-130 petition upon return to the United States. Because I-130 petitions are only subject to the requirements imposed by the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act (“AWA”) and are not within the scope of IMBRA, a Petitioner’s criminal background could remain undisclosed so long as it did not trigger AWA.This makes the disclosure requirements of IMBRA arguably toothless.
This makes for some interesting reading:Quote from: See, 151 Cong. Rec. S13, 752 (daily ed. Dec. 16, 2005) (statement of Sen. Brownback)(''A simple but incredibly powerful premise drives [the IMBRA] provisions: that this information can help a woman help herself, help her save herself or her child from becoming the next victim of a predatory abuser. Through this information and other safeguards, this important legislation will help prevent those intent on doing women harm from perverting and subverting both the institution of marriage and the immigration process to find new victims overseas.''). Despite these good faith intentions, it is critical to note that IMBRA covers K visa petitions only. Thus, a predatory Petitioner could circumvent IMBRA by traveling overseas to marry the Foreign Beneficiary and subsequently filing an I-130 petition upon return to the United States. Because I-130 petitions are only subject to the requirements imposed by the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act (“AWA”) and are not within the scope of IMBRA, a Petitioner’s criminal background could remain undisclosed so long as it did not trigger AWA.This makes the disclosure requirements of IMBRA arguably toothless.
At least 398 convicted sex offenders filed a total of 420 petitions in fiscal year 2005 for spouses, fiances, children, and other relatives.
The sex offenders were convicted of at least 411 sex-related crimes, including sexual assault and rape, according to data in the Federal Bureau of Investigation's National Sex Offender Registry. At least 45 convictions involved crimes against children. While most beneficiaries were spouses and fiances, criminal sex offenders petitioned for at least 60 children.
Under IMBRA, effective March 7. 2006,..... is mandated to collect from all US Citizens or Residents the following background information, and also conduct an electronic search on the National Sex Offender public registry and state public registry (http://www.nsopr.gov). This information and search result after translation to the Foreign individuals primary language will be made available to any Foreign individual interested in communicating with the US Citizen or Resident.
1. Background information, signed and certified by the client, describing and attesting to the following personal information:
a. Any temporary or permanent civil protection order or restraining order issued against the client.
b. Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the United States client for homicide, murder, manslaughter, assault, battery, domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, abusive sexual contact, sexual exploitation, incest, child abuse or neglect, torture, trafficking, peonage, holding hostage, involuntary servitude, slave trade, kidnapping, abduction, unlawful criminal restraint, false imprisonment, or stalking.
c. Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the client for—
i. solely, principally, or incidentally engaging in prostitution;
ii. a direct or indirect attempt to procure prostitutes or persons for the purpose of prostitution; or
iii. receiving, in whole or in part, of the proceeds of prostitution.
Also inregards to the prostitution remark that is covered.QuoteUnder IMBRA, effective March 7. 2006,..... is mandated to collect from all US Citizens or Residents the following background information, and also conduct an electronic search on the National Sex Offender public registry and state public registry (http://www.nsopr.gov). This information and search result after translation to the Foreign individuals primary language will be made available to any Foreign individual interested in communicating with the US Citizen or Resident.
1. Background information, signed and certified by the client, describing and attesting to the following personal information:
a. Any temporary or permanent civil protection order or restraining order issued against the client.
b. Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the United States client for homicide, murder, manslaughter, assault, battery, domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, abusive sexual contact, sexual exploitation, incest, child abuse or neglect, torture, trafficking, peonage, holding hostage, involuntary servitude, slave trade, kidnapping, abduction, unlawful criminal restraint, false imprisonment, or stalking.
c. Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction of the client for—
i. solely, principally, or incidentally engaging in prostitution;
ii. a direct or indirect attempt to procure prostitutes or persons for the purpose of prostitution; or
iii. receiving, in whole or in part, of the proceeds of prostitution.
411 sex-related crimes amongst 730,000 petitioners is significantly lower than the national average. I think that the senator is looking for forced love in all of the wrong places.
411 sex-related crimes amongst 730,000 petitioners is significantly lower than the national average. I think that the senator is looking for forced love in all of the wrong places.
I have a question:
1) From reading the links supplied in the last few posts; Are these forms/information/disclosures initially given to the potential bride/groom/boyfriend/girlfriend supplied in hardcopy? and if so Yes, they are.
2) How long before these individual disclosures/forms/info end up on the internet due to bad breakups/unacceptable background/CRC results, etc. by 'dissed/upset ex's/girlfriends/boyfriends and the like?
If they haven't appeared yet, it was probably just an oversight.
Brass
Andrew,
Anything that I write includes the presumption of runaway Fascism. I don't want to sound like a broken record by mentioning it in every post.
I have a question:
1) From reading the links supplied in the last few posts; Are these forms/information/disclosures initially given to the potential bride/groom/boyfriend/girlfriend supplied in hardcopy? and if so Yes, they are.
2) How long before these individual disclosures/forms/info end up on the internet due to bad breakups/unacceptable background/CRC results, etc. by 'dissed/upset ex's/girlfriends/boyfriends and the like?
If they haven't appeared yet, it was probably just an oversight.
Brass
Since more than half of forcible rapes are perpetrated against minors, the IMBRA folks could get more (less) bang for their buck by eliminating K-2 and K-4 visas. As a perk, most of the moms would stay in their native countries because they are unwilling to abandon their kids. (That would reduce the number of potential rape victims even more.)
That would force the predatory SRMs to seek out domestic females (mostly) to satisfy their perverted desires. Given that more than two-thirds of the likely victims are overweight, obese and flat-out disgusting, I would expect significant performance issues that would have a greater protective effect than any form of legislation or punishment. Perhaps incentives should be given to encourage sexual unattractiveness. (Free donuts at the minimum.)
You know, this do explain a lot about your arguments.
I'm done here.
So, to extrapolate for a moment. If even a percentage of US clients (regardless if he/she has a clean Rap Sheet or not) decides the risk of possibly having his/her personal info (full name, DOB, residential address, etc. presumably) up in cyber lights for all to see and opts out of the idea of pursuing a foreign relationship - would this not impact the agencies/brokers in the pocket book? (rhetorical)
Brass
Hey Tom, I did not have you figured for a Black Helicopter spotter. ;)
I doubt that everybody has the same degree of perspicacity as yourself though.
The point that strikes me though is this:
If what is going on is part of an ongoing war then what is the point in trying to argue details about different bits of legislation.
All that is happening by doing so is fighting yesterday's battles. These people care not one whit what anybody here might say or think of the legislation. The game is to find another way to fight back.
Think Redcoats vs ragtag colonials or US army against Iraqi freedom fighters.
There is no point on fighting using the enemy's rules, that's what they want you to do - ALWAYS!
As far as Andrews premise that the MOB business will be dead in two years. I would be happy to bet him $ 100.00 or even $ 1000.00 that there will still be a MOB business two years from now. Maybe a bit smaller or maybe not. I would only make that bet if it were a real bet with someone neutral holding the stakes not one like was made about some photos where one party backed out when they lost (and to not take sides, I would be a little skeptical had the bet gone the other way that it would have been any different but that is speculation and very possibly the bet would have been honored.)
I've posted in the past on one or two topics that the 'industry' has come up against a glass ceiling. As the laws/regulations tighten up worldwide, the agencies will either have to change how they do their business, bend the rules (possibly leaving their clients legally exposed if discovered) or be squeezed out (no longer viable).
*Hypothetically Speaking*
More than likely the SP would not show the ladies anything about anyone and would run the tour, or various introductions, etc... Then when the lust mates decided they are in love and going to do a visa or get married the IMBRA info would get trotted out the forms signed. everyone would agree to say they had seen the info and signed the forms much earlier and then off to the embassy everyone would go figuring this would all just work out hunky dory and that they had complied.
Same here but we're not exactly talking about a general population (SP's) concerned with things like morals, or law, or things like that. Most often <with some exceptions> their goal is to make as much money as possible from all parties involved and when that part is done their concern ends.
The ladies may or may not be moral people and more than likely have some exposure and or experience 'bending' the truth when it comes to things they tell the gvt. or it's minions. The guys... same deal. :popcorn:
The NSOR (http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1) is a free to use publicly accessible database and as such any SP or person can access it freely and somewhat anonymously. That's the big gvt. part of their (SP's) involvement. The other one is ensuring the info the USC sends is seen and understood by the female/male/whatever. The accuracy of which is (other than the NSOR search) dependent on the USC client. The minuscule remainder of responsibility is with the female/male/whatever who merely signs they saw it and is aware of the info they read.
Thus the majority of the 'onus' is on the USC and a miniscule amount on the female/male/whatever and SP.
Which is all well and good but little to do with my original post or my last post...but thanks for the link (although I'm pretty sure it's been posted a couple of times already). :chuckle:
Brass
*Hypothetically Speaking*
More than likely the SP would not show the ladies anything about anyone and would run the tour, or various introductions, etc... Then when the lust mates decided they are in love and going to do a visa or get married the IMBRA info would get trotted out the forms signed. everyone would agree to say they had seen the info and signed the forms much earlier and then off to the embassy everyone would go figuring this would all just work out hunky dory and that they had complied.
Boils down to bending the rules again...I don't know about you guys but up here but our government takes a dim view of falsifying government/immigration docs and conspiracy involving same.
Brass
In the longer term, those firms that build their business on the basis of dishonest dealing are going to become larger and larger targets for regulators and bureaucrats.
So maybe someone can enlighten me here...
I've recently observed that this (my) statement was lifted and used over at another forum for a somewhat simplified and not very well thought out response by a Tour Operator trying to defend his business model.
Our intrepid tour operator wrote:
That I must be ill-informed or do not have an understanding of things.
My understanding of the concept is a group of men travel to various cities in the FSU, with the tour operator attending socials
ladies whom either arrive 'blind' (no prior invite by a tour participant) to the social
introduced to one of the tour participants (whom presumably they have had prior contact with in some form or another),
Let's assume 10 western male participants - again, having read and looked - would 30 female guests/attendees per function be a stretch for each social in, let's say 3 cities
So, 3 socials, three cities, 90 female guests for the complete tour
Now, let's assume 30 (or more if you wish)of these are pre invites at the men's request and have already done the IMBRA process as alluded to by the SP above:
...Now, of the women that Mr. Client would like to meet with each of these agencies, and the ladies who would like to meet Mr. Client, they simply come to the agency offices and sign the form. Thats it!!! No meeting of women unless she signs the IMBRA form. We're all legal and IMBRA conforming...
Which would leave (up to) 60 ladies signing they are in receipt of the IMBRA forms at the door presumably, as our SP again has alluded to:
...Once IMBRA laws begin to be enforced with the ladies attending the ballroom or facility where we are holding the party will be 10, or 11 or 12 IMBRA forms on a desk just before they enter the party. Each women has to sign each of the IMBRA forms. Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA compliant for our tour parties...
Denotes future tense (at least to me) and infact is a change in how (at least) this SP will do business in the future.
Moving on...Our SP further alludes to being 100% IMBRA compliant...
...Now we are 100% legal, 100% IMBRA compliant for our tour parties...
I don't quite see how this is so in that IMBRA states that you need to provide a *copy* of records of any information retrieved from your IMBRA search or documentation showing the search produced no results in her primary language, yes?
So, you now have 10 separate sheets of compiled confidential docs being disseminated to (up to) 60 ladies for the entire tour. Women you might have contact with for all of 30 seconds or less, if neither is interested in each other...However, she now has your confidential/personal information in her hands.
Not exactly just a signature before they join the party as our SP has stated:...
Or maybe he will circumvent IMBRA Regs by simply making sure he is in receipt of the lady's signature to cover himself and not provide the foreign national with a copy? Lends itself to my 'Agencies bending the rules but might leave the client legally exposed' statement, don't you think?
Finally, assuming our SP is totally compliant, who pays for the translation, hardcopy, extra admin, records keeping etc.? I bet it won't be the SP,
which means the cost will be passed on to the client, maybe putting the cost of actually going on a tour out of reach for some men. Clientele drops, overhead for the Agency/Broker/SP rises and Oops,..."squeezed out (no longer viable)."
As an aside...for the gentlemen who've participated; Is it conceivable there is now potentially dozens of women out there, you may have no intention of ever meeting again, whom you may have had a few moments passing conversation with, in possession of your personal info? And when these girls are on their way home after a meal and some drinks, where's the paperwork - in the trash, left somewhere, collected by a bad guy...on the internet?
Brass
Boils down to bending the rules again...I don't know about you guys but up here but our government takes a dim view of falsifying government/immigration docs and conspiracy involving same.
Brass
OK, now can someone explain where I might be ill-informed or suffer from a lack of understanding, thanks.
*Hypothetically Speaking*
More than likely the SP would not show the ladies anything about anyone and would run the tour, or various introductions, etc... Then when the lust mates decided they are in love and going to do a visa or get married the IMBRA info would get trotted out the forms signed. everyone would agree to say they had seen the info and signed the forms much earlier
It doesn't sound like compliance to me.
Please Brass, we do not offer socials. Please do not get me or my agency confused with the companies who provide socials. We have parties. This is nothing new Brass, I have stated this for well over 10 years that we do not provide socials, we offer parties, I did not want our company to be associated with socials. When I first started this business their were many differences in the way we did things compared to the social providers, so many differences it was quite obvious.
Ok Brass, I'll bite, however as I was/am very reluctant to post anything in this topic based on your recent moderation practices I will say if you remove or delete anything you will have to see the remainder of my replies with this thread on another forum. I'm sure your going to say something along the lines you will delete/remove anything you feel is off topic but as I have seen, as has many others, with your piteous excuse of removing post's 'you' consider off topic, I will stand by what I have stated.
Brass, at no time was I, or have I, felt a need to defend my business model. Your statement that I am trying to defend my business model is not correct.
Jack said...............................
Please Brass, we do not offer socials. Please do not get me or my agency confused with the companies who provide socials. We have parties. This is nothing new Brass, I have stated this for well over 10 years that we do not provide socials, we offer parties, I did not want our company to be associated with socials. When I first started this business their were many differences in the way we did things compared to the social providers, so many differences it was quite obvious.
For an agency who has stated many times over the last decade that they did not provide socials, for an agency who has written on their website over the last decade, it's written there today, was written there in 2000, that we do not provide socials, we do parties, you have either been ill-informed or do not have a good understanding as to our agency to be making such a statement.
Jack said..............................
Ladies who attend our parties have been invited, we have no "blind" attendees.
Jack said..................................
Brass, not 100% correct, maybe 40% correct.
First you need to understand about 50% of the ladies who attend our parties today are associated with various marriage agencies. The men have chosen these ladies as being ladies they would have an interest to meet. The men have had no prior contact, not by phone, not by email, not by letter, no previous contact with these ladies. The men like the way the lady looks, likes what he see's in her profile, he would like to meet her at the party. We advise the agencies and they offer invitations to the party to these ladies.
Now almost all the guys are also dealing with ladies from other agencies as well and are writing ladies from other internet sites including free Russian sites and Russian personal websites, one site with millions of Russian ladies who are members.
Of this group of ladies, say the ladies from Elena's Models, or A Pretty Woman, or AFA, even Anastasia, the men may have made some type prior contact, but not always. Sometimes the men will just acquire the ladies contact information, like with A Pretty Woman or Bride.ru, and our support staff will contact the ladies, tell them of our party and invite them. *The ladies the men make contact with from the Russian personal sites, all the men have made some contact with, usually by messaging thru the i-net site, or by email, but once the men get the ladies phone numbers then one of our staff ladies will call, get involved and either set a private meeting with the lady* or invite her to the party.
If men are even a little successful they are going to have too many ladies to meet for private meetings, thus the parties are a great way for these men to meet several ladies who interest them that they would not probably be able to meet otherwise.
Now, all the ladies who are with marriage agencies will have to comply 100% with IMBRA procedures. Both ladies who the men meet through private meetings as well the parties. *The ladies the men have private meetings with thru the free Russian sites or the Russian personal sites are IMBRA exempt,* BUT the ladies from these same exempt sites who attend our parties now qualify for IMBRA as they are attending our sponsored party even though one of the men has already obtained her direct contact information. The reason these ladies now qualify for IMBRA is because they are now meeting many other American men. So although one man has already made a legal, non-binding IMBRA contact with her, the other men are meeting her with the help of an IMB, me, and now these ladies must fall under IMBRA.
To make it simple, effective and legal, ALL ladies attending our parties must sign and date each man's IMBRA signature sheet
It doesn't sound like compliance to me.
Hey Tom, spoken like a man well informed and knowledgeable. Can you please tell me what does not sound like is in compliance with you?
I thank you in advance.
If were going to assume Brass let's try to be much closer on the actual figure's, ok? 3 parties, 3 cities, 10 men, 150 female guests.
Brass I think you do not have a good understanding of things or are ill-informed. Of the 150 ladies invited probably around 120 of these women will have been requested by the men. NONE of these 120 ladies would have done any type IMBRA form associated with our tour.
The paragraph you have taken and used as your reference are NOT ladies who will be attending the parties. These are ladies the men will be meeting for private meetings. Before any man can meet any of these ladies for a private meeting the woman must come to the agency, read the man's IMBRA form, as well his profile, look at his photo. If this woman has interest to meet this man, she must sign and date the sheet of paper attached to the back of this man's IMBRA form.
Brass, please show me, as well other members here, where I, the SP, has alluded to the ladies would be in receipt of the IMBRA forms? Again I think someone has ill-advised you, or you do not have a good understanding.
Under the example we have set out with, 10 western clients, their would be 10 separate IMBRA forms, one for each of the 10 men. On the back of each of these IMBRA forms are two sheets of paper. Each sheet is divided in two, has two columns with 18 lines/places for signatures, a total of 36 signatures on each sheet of paper.
We would have about 50 ladies each signing that they have read the IMBRA form, not that they are in receipt of the IMBRA form, but that they have read the IMBRA form for that man.
This SP HAS done business like this in the past. Brass, it appears that you have been ill-informed or do not have a good understanding. Your statement denoting of future tense at least to you is not only inaccurate but also misleading. You should really read, or try to get a better understanding, of any Service Provider you are going to make comments about when you begin to state "and infact" when your in fact is not correct. Further reading in this same thread on your part you would have read the following, which would have prevented you from making a false misrepresentation.
.......When IMBRA first came out I had the guys do the IMBRA forms, we had ladies sign the IMBRA forms before entering the party. Then I realized the law was not in effect and could not be enforced so stopped with the IMBRA forms. Few clients had to go thru the IMBRA procedure.......
The above paragraph clearly states that the SP has in fact done this business in this manner in the past. Again I think it's a case of someone ill-informing you, or you not having a good understanding of what you are representing.
rass, I'm beginning to think you really do not have a very good understanding of things.
The agencies we work with who have ladies the men have interest to meet each have the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form. I send to each of these agencies the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form. The profile and IMBRA forms are of course translated into Ukrainian. If a man has no interest in meeting any ladies at a particular agency, that agency does not get the man's profile, photo, IMBRA form.
I send to the agencies who have men interested in some of their ladies a list of ladies the client would like to meet. The agency then contacts the lady and advises the lady that an American man is coming to Kharkov or Zaporozhye or Nikolayev in 4 weeks and would like to meet him. Many times, as I understand, the lady will ask questions about this man and I have instructed the agencies to tell the women that they must come to the agency to find out about this man, they must read his profile, they must look at his photos, that these men are not traveling 6000 miles to have blind dates. As over 90% of all marriage agencies are located in the center of the center, most ladies, if not in the center everyday, are in the center every other day or at least a few times a week.
The lady comes to the agency, she reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, has no interest to meet him. End of that story. Another lady comes in, reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, she has interest to meet this man and she tells this to the agency owner. Now the lady is told she must read, sign and date this man's IMBRA form. When we have previously done this I am told many of the ladies asked what is this IMBRA form and the ladies were told it was an American law and that it would indicate how many times the man has been married, if he has children or a criminal record.
None of the women who were asked to sign the IMBRA form had any problem in doing so. And of course I have told the agency owners if the IMBRA form is not signed, we can have no meetings. As one might imagine the agency owners make sure the ladies sign and date the IMBRA forms.
Each agency is told they cannot set a single meeting until I have possession of the original IMBRA form with all the ladies original signature. I tell each agency they must keep a copy of each clients IMBRA form as well as signature sheet, but I will always have possession of the original forms and signature sheets.
If a woman from this agency and one of our clients decide to pursue the K-1 visa the woman is provided by the agency a copy of the clients IMBRA form as well the signature sheet showing her signature. But I will not rely solely on the agency to be able to provide this form and that is why I insist on having the original copies. If the agency goes out of business, if an agency begins to develop questionable work ethics and I am no longer working with an agency, I have the man's original records, the IMBRA form and his ladies signature, and provide to the American client and to his lady.
.......When IMBRA first came out I had the guys do the IMBRA forms, we had ladies sign the IMBRA forms before entering the party. Then I realized the law was not in effect and could not be enforced so stopped with the IMBRA forms. Few clients had to go thru the IMBRA procedure.......
Jack said.................
Again Brass, and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but it seems you have been either ill-informed or do not have a very good understanding.
Under the scenario we used, it would be about 150 ladies and NONE of these ladies are in possession of the man's IMBRA form or the signature sheets stapled to each form. I have the original copy of the man's IMBRA form, I have the original signature sheets. Each agency has a copy of the man's IMBRA form and signature sheet if a man choose any ladies from their agency.
Not exactly just a signature before they join the party as our SP has stated:...
Jack said......................
Again Brass, it's apparent you do not have a very good understanding. YES, EXACTLY as the SP has stated, we have the ladies signature before they joined the party.
Or maybe he will circumvent IMBRA Regs by simply making sure he is in receipt of the lady's signature to cover himself and not provide the foreign national with a copy? Lends itself to my 'Agencies bending the rules but might leave the client legally exposed' statement, don't you think?
Jack said.................
Brass, according to retained legal council, an immigration attorney, and individuals legal council has spoken with at Homeland Security, this is not as you are incorrectly stating, something you seem to be doing a lot of, circumventing IMBRA regulation.
I will always be in possession of each man's original IMBRA form and the original signature sheet's and have been advised this is perfectly legal.
Finally, assuming our SP is totally compliant, who pays for the translation, hardcopy, extra admin, records keeping etc.? I bet it won't be the SP,
Jack said....
You bet it won't be the SP? Well, for 100% sure we have shown Brass you do not have a good understanding. My staff translates each man's IMBRA form into Ukraine, not Russian, but the official Ukrainian language. I keep all the original records.
which means the cost will be passed on to the client, maybe putting the cost of actually going on a tour out of reach for some men. Clientele drops, overhead for the Agency/Broker/SP rises and Oops,..."squeezed out (no longer viable)."
Jack said.....................
Additional cost to the clients? Ohh Brass, you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? Brass, their is NO extra cost to our clients to be IMBRA compliant. We had not made the cost of our tours any higher, we have not put the cost of the tour out of reach for some men, but good try Brass. For someone who is in complete agreement with an individual who say's the business is dead, will not exist in the to distance future, I can see why you would want to portray this.
My overhead rises? Brass, paper is cheap. 8.5 by 11 inch paper even in Ukraine is very cheap. My staff workers are salary paid, it cost nothing extra for them to translate the men's IMBRA form, so "squeezed out, no longer viable" again, good try Brass.
As an aside...for the gentlemen who've participated; Is it conceivable there is now potentially dozens of women out there, you may have no intention of ever meeting again, whom you may have had a few moments passing conversation with, in possession of your personal info? And when these girls are on their way home after a meal and some drinks, where's the paperwork - in the trash, left somewhere, collected by a bad guy...on the internet?No Brass, wrong again. As I have already explained, their are no ladies in possession of a man's personal info. Their could be one lady with this info, a lady who the man is wanting to bring to America, but no bad guy on the internet.
Boils down to bending the rules again...I don't know about you guys but up here but our government takes a dim view of falsifying government/immigration docs and conspiracy involving same.
Brass, are you indicating, hinting, that I am bending the rules or that I am falsifying government/immigration documents and committing conspiracy?
Translation: Dan's not happy with you answering to quotes at another forum which originated at RUA. :chuckle:
Quote from: JackBrass, at no time was I, or have I, felt a need to defend my business model. Your statement that I am trying to defend my business model is not correct.
Well that's a matter of opinion, I suppose.
something must have twigged you answering to it.
leads me to believe you either somehow felt threatened by the statement
Yep. I even did a quick search here, you do state you do parties, not socials.
What you don't state is the difference.Brass
So, what's the difference?
Quote from: JackJack said..............................
Ladies who attend our parties have been invited, we have no "blind" attendees.
Brass
I'll clarify; Blind as in blind date in that yes, as you've stated one of your clients may have picked her out and would like to meet her but has had no prior contact with her (invited by the support staff I believe you mentioned).
Why are they (bolded statements[Edit: now *asterisk]) IMBRA exempt? Aren't you now facilitating that initial (private) meeting regardless of whether or not the US based client was already in possession of his/her contact particulars?
To be continued.
So 150 ladies at the parties. Of these 150 ladies, 120 will have been requested by the US based clients; None of these 120 foreign nationals (ladies) would have received any type of IMBRA paperwork associated with the tour, is that correct?
These 120 women requested by the client(s) are above and beyond the private meetings that have already been arranged.
...However, you've posted that any women attending private meetings are not women who will be attending the parties (below)...
...And then you post "If men are even a little successful they are going to have too many ladies to meet for private meetings, thus the parties are a great way for these men to meet several ladies who interest them that they would not probably be able to meet otherwise."
So, let's bottom line this...it really doesn't matter how many women are at the party or whether or not they've signed off an IMBRA form to see a client prior - they have to sign off to attend the party, right?
Whether it's 120 or 150, agency, free personal or whatever; they all need to sign at some point.
Where and when are they signing off and how do you ensure it's been done - You or the agencies?
In accordance with the Act you should be providing a copy of the doc(s) to each signatory.
My question was, if these women were in receipt of the docs, what were they doing with them after the party.
There was no misleading statement. My use of "infact" was accurate. You infact are changing how you do business.
It has nothing to do with the history of how you did business only the present and future.
You've broken your post up addressing the same issues in different answers so I'll probably end up addressing this again
you've stated that you stopped complying with the IMBRA Regs because it was not in effect and couldn't be enforced - was this because the Act was rescinded-put on hold-or a notification it was under revue released? Why was it not in effect and unenforceable?
How are your clients dealing with this question if asked during the interview stage? (How did you meet?)
rass, I'm beginning to think you really do not have a very good understanding of things.
The agencies we work with who have ladies the men have interest to meet each have the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form. I send to each of these agencies the man's profile, photo and IMBRA form. The profile and IMBRA forms are of course translated into Ukrainian. If a man has no interest in meeting any ladies at a particular agency, that agency does not get the man's profile, photo, IMBRA form.
I send to the agencies who have men interested in some of their ladies a list of ladies the client would like to meet. The agency then contacts the lady and advises the lady that an American man is coming to Kharkov or Zaporozhye or Nikolayev in 4 weeks and would like to meet him. Many times, as I understand, the lady will ask questions about this man and I have instructed the agencies to tell the women that they must come to the agency to find out about this man, they must read his profile, they must look at his photos, that these men are not traveling 6000 miles to have blind dates. As over 90% of all marriage agencies are located in the center of the center, most ladies, if not in the center everyday, are in the center every other day or at least a few times a week.
The lady comes to the agency, she reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, has no interest to meet him. End of that story. Another lady comes in, reads the man's profile, looks at his photo, she has interest to meet this man and she tells this to the agency owner. Now the lady is told she must read, sign and date this man's IMBRA form. When we have previously done this I am told many of the ladies asked what is this IMBRA form and the ladies were told it was an American law and that it would indicate how many times the man has been married, if he has children or a criminal record.
None of the women who were asked to sign the IMBRA form had any problem in doing so. And of course I have told the agency owners if the IMBRA form is not signed, we can have no meetings. As one might imagine the agency owners make sure the ladies sign and date the IMBRA forms.
Each agency is told they cannot set a single meeting until I have possession of the original IMBRA form with all the ladies original signature. I tell each agency they must keep a copy of each clients IMBRA form as well as signature sheet, but I will always have possession of the original forms and signature sheets.
If a woman from this agency and one of our clients decide to pursue the K-1 visa the woman is provided by the agency a copy of the clients IMBRA form as well the signature sheet showing her signature. But I will not rely solely on the agency to be able to provide this form and that is why I insist on having the original copies. If the agency goes out of business, if an agency begins to develop questionable work ethics and I am no longer working with an agency, I have the man's original records, the IMBRA form and his ladies signature, and provide to the American client and to his lady.
Alright, so in this segment of your post you are again collecting signatures retaining forms etc.
When did you start complying with IMBRA again and why?
And I don't want to sound like a broken record either Jack but the Act states 'provide a copy'
You've missed the point of my statement.
What I'm trying to convey is there's more to it than just obtaining a signature before they join the party as in qualifying the paragraph above the sentence you quoted.
We keep coming back to this and it's outlined above. Really Jack you could have cut the length of this post in halve.
Anyway, I (again) have not incorrectly stated anything, the Act states 'provide a copy'. I have no doubt you keeping the original signature/form is perfectly legal Jack but that's not really what the thrust of my argument is.
So you state there's no extra cost to IMBRA associated paperwork? Well for one, at some point you weren't even following IMBRA (as you stated above),
As for the rest you (as you also mentioned) don't appear to provide copies anyway, so how would you know? :chuckle:
But is it conceivable that if copies of the form(s) were given out as the Act stipulates - there might be multiple copies of these things floating around unsecured,
seeing as once promulgated, you (or any SP) really has no control over what the ladies might do with them, especially in a situation where there are multiple women/guests congregating in one area (like a party)? Which is what I was trying to get across...
Jack, why would you think that my answering to ECR's hypothetical question, which was in a separate message altogether, have anything to do with you?
Good practice dictates that the recipient of a document receives a hard copy, immediately upon signing, and acknowledges receipt on both the copy and the original. From the description upthread, it sounds as though this is not happening.
uhhhhh, let me see if I understand this correctly.
You say it sounds like we are not in compliance and when I ask why, you say it's because I do not follow good practice's?
Brass,
What I don't get in all this back-and-forth with Jack is why you seem to hold yourself out as more expert at the requirements of IMBRA than an immigration lawyer and the people at Homeland Security, which will (eventually) enforce it?
Do I remember wrongly, or aren't you a Canadian to boot? (Many Canadians have only a superficial understanding of how laws are written and enforced in the U.S.--just as Americans are usually fairly clueless about the same things regarding Canadian law).
Or are you maintaining that Jack is lying about hiring counsel to guide him in this matter?
Sorry, but it appears to me that you are very much off base in this instance--in line with your stolid defense of Andrew and resistance to anyone or anything that appears contrary to his "report" and its implications.
Brass, at no time was I, or have I, felt a need to defend my business model. Your statement that I am trying to defend my business model is not correct.
Well that's a matter of opinion, I suppose.
Wellll duhhhh! You suppose?
It certainly is someone's opinion.
We certainly know it is your expressed opinion, unless you can show me anywhere I indicated I was defending my business model, which of course you can't.
Jack said...
Nawww Brass, nothing twigged me to answer it,...unless of course it's another one of those things you were lead to believe.
Jack said...
Well, that's all we need to hear! Anything that leads YOU to believe something then it MUST be the case. Good example as to the many things you were lead to believe in your post number 373. .
Maybe TG can shed some light on it?
Contributing to the discussion is always welcomed, however, Shush, the adults are talking now comes to mind when you post this kind of message.
Brass
Maybe TG can shed some light on it?I have just started reading some of the recent posts but having been to three big agency "socials" and going on one of Jack's tours and attending four of Jack's "parties", there is a night and day difference between the two concepts.
Perhaps Jack calls his "parties" and the big agencies call theirs "socials" and perhaps that is just Jack's way of differentiating the two which he should do because they are very different. If the socials didn't exist, I think he could call his socials just as easily but they do and they are very different so I think Jack is wise in trying to use a different term. They are a world apart in how they work.
Contributing to the discussion is always welcomed, however, Shush, the adults are talking now comes to mind when you post this kind of message.
Brass, this wasn't one of your better posts. You come off like you are trying to say you have a right to say who can and can't participate in a discussion. I am sure you didn't mean it that way. He raised some valid points and just answering them would have been a better way to deal with it.
Good, good, I'm glad you were able to see for yourself that I have indicated for many years that we have parties, not socials. Hopefully you won't make that mistake again.
What you don't state is the difference.
I don't state what some of the difference's are? Are you sure about that Brass? In no previous post's here I have never stated some of the differences?
I think I have written on this before, I think you are mistaken or didn't look, but if your saying you couldn't find where I have discussed it, and I don't have the time right now to go back and look, I'll take your word for it.
Ok, so what are some of the difference's?
Brass, not that I want to make a habit out of this, one should be able to find and prove out these things on their own, but I'll go to my website and go to the group tour section and pull out some of that information.
Here are some of the difference's.
No other company or agency puts in the time and effort that we do for each of the men attending
If you are thinking of just hopping on a plane, going to three socials and meeting a lot of pretty young girls and choosing your wife from one of the girls at these three socials, then our group tour is not for you.
Having personally attended several of the larger socials during my own pursuit, I have seen what I consider the good, the bad and the ugly that these socials have to offer, and as such, we have taken the good, made it even better, got rid of the bad and the ugly (as we perceived it), and have created an efficient event and environment that we think is just as fun and rewarding for the men, as it is for the special ladies who are attending.
Today these same agencies are averaging half of what they used to draw, and one of the original agencies to do large group tours has stopped doing group tours all together,...why? Because, in my opinion, the truth about many of these socials has gotten out! Men, mostly thanks to the Internet, have become more aware of what is going on. With many of today's bigger companies that sponsor socials you basically have two types of ladies who attend; the women who attend social after social after social, (many of which I call social scammers, working girls and party girls) and who could make up probably over 80% of the women in attendance, and the sincere ladies who are attending for the first, and LAST time. Many sincere ladies attending for the first time are so disgusted by what they see that I have seen many good ladies walking out of socials early in tears. So many young, beautiful girls who are dressed very seductively and who aggressively seek any and all men. These are not your typical Russian ladies! Young girls who latch onto any man of 45, 55 or 65 years of age (preferably those with diamond rings, Rolex watches, gold necklaces), holding onto his arm, not wanting to ever let him go, staring into his eyes making this man think he has luckily meet his future dream bride. So young, so beautiful and sensual are these women, that many of these men think the stories they have read and heard from some of these bigger agencies about Russian ladies preferring older men are true and how lucky they are to have met their young beautiful bride. "Two hundred women here and somehow my dream bride finds me, and so quickly", he convinces himself. It is the goal of each one of these social scammer women and professional daters to keep this man occupied for that evening, and the next two days if possible, keeping him away from the other socials and other ladies, even if that means screwing his brains out that first night. If she can manage this, and many of these women are quite good and successful at this, she will now have this man to herself for the remainder of the week. During this time she will acquire new clothes, purse, cell phone, shoes, things for her flat, spending money, etc. When these good, sincere ladies who show up for the first time to these big socials see what is going on, and how these social scammers, party girls, working women aggressively go after the guys attending, and how very few of the men pay any attention to the sincere ladies, many of these good ladies get up and leave, promising to never attend such a function again and in the process telling other good ladies of what is taking place. And these ladies tell other ladies who tell other ladies. Today it is getting harder and harder to find good, sincere ladies to attend many of these bigger socials and as a result the percentage of social scammers attending steadily increases. The word "socials" in my opinion is getting such a bad reputation and black eye with so many ladies in Ukraine and Russia today that I do not want to even use the word social in association with our group tours. So I have replaced the word social for party. Maybe the word party is not as professional sounding as the word social once was, but if I use the word social it will certainly affect the caliber of ladies we are trying to have attend our functions.
Ask almost any man who has attended some of these bigger socials and he will probably tell you what I am saying here is the truth, word for word. In my opinion these socials put on by most the larger tour providers have seen there better days as the word has gotten out about the majority of type of women to be found there. Look at how many good references some of these big agencies have of men who can talk good about the socials, who recommend the socials. Please, check with some of the men who have attended our group tours. With great pride we offer you the opportunity to talk to men who have been part of our group tours. Many of our clients have also attended one or more of the big socials and listen to their opinions as to the difference's between our parties and the socials. I personally work very hard with each of these men for 2-3-4 months prior to each trip to help him have the most efficient trip possible. And not all ladies are met just at the parties. The many private meetings that the men work hard for are just as important as the parties.
Women are not allowed just to walk in off the street and attend. At our parties we have free champagne, wine, juice, food and snacks, not just for the ladies, but for the men also. There is of course a bar and bartender for those who prefer soft drinks, mixed drinks and beer. Good music, plenty of dancing, and we have various contest's, prizes to give away and a few games that we play which help to liven things up and allows for everyone to know others better. For the first couple of hours we will keep the men moving to different tables, as Russian ladies for the most part are somewhat shy. Usually men will be at a table with his interpreter and four or five nice ladies for about 12 minutes. During this time you talk to the ladies, see which ladies you may have an interest to get to know better. We have found that this is the best way to have the men meet many wonderful ladies in a short period who interest them. Each man will have his own interpreter and his interpreter can help him to set meetings with the ladies. The last few hours of the parties, when the dancing begins, we just let mother nature take it's course.
We provide interpreters at all our parties, one interpreter per man. Unlike the interpreters in the past who have worked for some of the bigger social companies, we pay our interpreters for their services. I have heard, and had a few interpreters to verify to me, that the interpreters who have attend some socials for some of the larger companies are invited to attend but are not paid anything. They are told that if they work as an interpreter that they will have the opportunity to meet many foreign men who are interested in marriage to a Russian woman. Now correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't this seem like a conflict of interest if I have an interpreter who is working for me, trying to help me with a lady I have interest in, when the interpreter might have an interest in me! I would wonder what exactly she is telling the lady I have interest in? It has happened in the past and it will happen again where an interpreter who is interested in a man for herself will deliberately sabotage a potential relationship. Our interpreters are told of our strict code of conduct. They are not allowed to date or be involved with any of the men until the last party in that city is over and they cannot be an interpreter for any man they might have interest in. If we see or find out otherwise, we will not use this lady as an interpreter again. I am happy to say that since we started this practice six years ago I believe some of the other agencies have changed their policy about their interpreters, closely following the guidelines and standards we have set.
Brass,
In what way was my inquiry "questioning your intelligence"?
My remark that many Canadians don't truly understand American jurisprudence has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence...just as my remark about many Americans not being very knowledgeable about Canadian jurisprudence has anything to do with their intelligence, either. It's simply that you have not grown up under the system. Often, it is tempting to try to draw parallels in your mind to what you know first hand--and that is not a reliable guide in every case.
Even within one system, quite often the interpretation of law may seem strange or convoluted to the layman at times. Again, it has nothing to do with intelligence. If being intelligent were all that is required, law schools could take far less than the three years or so they presently require. In fact, just about any law school professor will tell you their biggest and first challenge is to train students to "think like a lawyer." I can assure you, when I was in law school there was no lack of intelligence in our class on the first day--but it still took each of them three years to complete the program, and they were far different coming out than going in.
My primary question you ignored, as usual, in your hurry to disparage me. I'll repeat:
You have said that Jack is not in compliance with IMBRA, event though an actual American Immigration attorney is advising him, and even though they have consulted with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, which has the charge of implementing and enforcing the law.
Since the attorney and Homeland Security apparently think they are in compliance, while you are claiming he is not--in what way, precisely, are you *not* holding yourself out as some sort of expert in interpreting the law that his licensed and practicing attorney and the people at Homeland Security may be missing?
I believe that is completely on point to the discussion, and would be seen to be so by any fair-minded observer. However, to you I am "injecting myself into the discussion"--which, apparently in your world, is a no-no. If you want to have a discussion solely between you and Jack, I suggest having it via email or PM on this site would be worthwhile. Otherwise, being a forum and all, you should expect others to contribute.
The only other alternative I could see to your continuing to take the tack that you have--that Jack is not in compliance with the law--must logically be that you don't believe he has in fact consulted with knowledgeable professionals who actually *know* and not *guess* how the law is to be interpreted and enforced.
I cannot see any other alternative.
I don't believe your brain is defective, although you seem to have some anger issues that mean you don't always read so carefully...and, I think, this is one of those times.
So which is it--do you claim superior understanding of the American law and how the agency itself is interpreting its requirements (and thus the lawyer and Homeland Security are wrong), or do you question whether Jack has actually done as he has said?
Or, of course, are you willing to grant that Jack is, in fact, in compliance with the demands of the law?
Of course, if past experience is any guide, you will once again simply attempt to attack me rather than address the question. I leave it to others reading this thread to determine whether the question is a reasonable one in light of the prior posts and is, in fact, on topic. We already know Turbo's opinion.
David
Thanks Ray for the insight. You state that they, meaning the socials/parties are a world apart, but is that not in reference to the logistics or even the atmosphere (maybe better run parties, nicer ladies etc.)?
I don't want to split hairs - Jack has the absolute right to market his get togethers any way he wishes but the concept - men and women getting together for social discourse?...the venues - hotel, ballroom, dining hall etc., are they not similar?...the purpose - meet a potential mate/spouse, opportunity to do a little see what's out there in terms of a possible relationship, identical?
In otherwords; Is Jack insisting that he holds parties vice socials a moot point, they're both get togethers, after all?
Thanks Ray for the insight. You state that they, meaning the socials/parties are a world apart, but is that not in reference to the logistics or even the atmosphere (maybe better run parties, nicer ladies etc.)?
No, as far as the atmosphere or lets say the facility, they are similar. As far as better run in terms of entertainment, refreshments they are similar, maybe even the big agencies might have the edge but if so it is an awful small edge. Nicer Ladies? In what way? As far as the attractiveness they are probably pretty close. As far as the sincerity there is a major difference. I will say more below.I don't want to split hairs - Jack has the absolute right to market his get togethers any way he wishes but the concept - men and women getting together for social discourse?...the venues - hotel, ballroom, dining hall etc., are they not similar?...the purpose - meet a potential mate/spouse, opportunity to do a little see what's out there in terms of a possible relationship, identical?
In otherwords; Is Jack insisting that he holds parties vice socials a moot point, they're both get togethers, after all?
Are they not similar? Well yes, some could say they are the same thing just as you could say Elena's and Anastasia are similar or the same. We all know they are not however and Jack's parties are not similar or the same as the big agency ones.
The biggest difference that has a real impact is how the woman are recruited. With the big agencies, they run newspaper ads, the have signs on electric poles, signs in the street and in the hotel inviting women to meet prospective foreign husbands. If scammers and serial daters were stupid then it might work but they aren't. They are very smart women and they know there will be a roomfull of very nieve guys making their first trip to the FSU with their pockets full of cash and their heads full of the bull that the big agencys feed the guys. In other words a room full of farily rich suckers. It is a scammers dream come true.
The result is that most guys go home thinking they have met this dream girl who want's to come to America and have their babies and devote their lives to putting a smile on their face. They make a return trip and the gal has them out shopping for $ 500.00 boots before they even get their bags in the hotel room and then is an endless run of $ 300.00 lunches and needing this or that so they are not ashamed to be with their dream guy. Each night they get a peck on the cheek and their wallet is a lot emptier. Sooner or later they wake up to the fact she may not be that big a catch and sign up for another tour.
Jack's tour are mostly either women the men have invited or who are sent by a small agency that knows each woman first hand. There are very few scammers. That is one very big difference.
The second major difference is the format. At the big agency sessions the woman are standing around and feel like meat in a butcher shop. The men pick the women they want to talk to and talk to them for 15 minutes or so. At the end of the night they pick the one they want to go to dinner with and invite them. It is always a yes unless she has already committed to another guy. The smoking hot women are always busy. The sincere but not as attractive ladies may stand around all night and not talk to anyone.
At Jacks parties, the men have a table and sit with 5-6 women. Every 15 minutes or so they blow a whistle and the women change tables. You have a full time interpreter assigned to you. You let the interpreter know which ones you want to talk to more and after the session you can spend more time with the ones you really like and you can take them out. The result is every man meets ever woman and every woman meets ever man. No one ever stands around not talking to anyone. There is no meat market atmospere.
When you are not at the party you are meeting women you picked out in advance one on one and usually you meet 2-3 a day that way in addition to the parties.
As far as the IMBRA compliance it sounds to me like Jack is at least as much in compliance as agencies like Elenas and maybe more so.
Eric, you are a fun kinda guy.
Thanks for being an early reader of Life After Death.
You know what you have achieved with your post above?
You managed to write 322 words without once dealing with the content.
You managed to write 322 worthless words.
You sir, are a prince! :ROFL:
The discussion about part two is here guys: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13520.msg193178.html#msg193178
The associated members-only discussion containing all the usual insults, off topic banter, speculation, armchair lawyers and conspiracy theories is here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,13363.0.html