Russian, Ukrainian & FSU Information & Manosphere Discussion Forums
Information & Chat => Adventure Stories & Travel Reports => The Train Wreck Room => Topic started by: ChrisE on December 29, 2011, 07:12:55 AM
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For those who know me, they know of the personal turmoil I have already been going through to make this decision on who to visit. But I think I have decided well, and now I am off to Lugansk to spend New Years and the Ukrainian Christmas with a really wonderful woman. It was a close call. The trip was planned, tickets paid for, and arrangements made. Then of course life not being easy, something always comes up to jeapordize even the best of plans. It was touch and go-the day before it was decided that the trip would have to be called off. The lady was notified, and she was very disappointed. But the fates intervened, and soon I was scrambling to get everything packed-the trip was back on! The lady was sent an email and SMS to let her know the good news. Hoped she got the message in time-haven't sent her an SMS before! An hour before walking out the door, I recieved the reply-she's going to meet me at the airport as planned!
So documents in hand, I am leaving Milwaukee on this rainy morning headed to Donetsk-which is the closest international airport to Lugansk-about 90 miles away. My lady insisted on meeting me there, though I don't know what to expect upon arrival. I know I will probably be in bad shape from the travel. Going to be a long trip of about 20 hours total, with 4 flights. The tricky part will be making the transfer in Austria where I have only 45 minutes between flights. So after such an itinerary, still hope my lady likes what she sees upon first meeting in person! (:)
We had many Skype sessions already, and countless emails over a period of a few months. The most difficult part will be the language barrier as she speaks almost no English, and my Russian isn't much better. But we both have out dictionaries, and I downloaded translator software onto my tablet, and also a couple electronic phrase books, and an electronic dictionary. The best part is the ability to switch between cyrillic and english keyboards, and maybe the bonus of both English and Russian voice input. I tried out the voice feature on a limited basis, and seemed to be much better than expected. But only time in the field will tell if it's useful or not. This could be a great tool if it is-I'll try to keep up on the usefulness of all my technological trials, as this also could be very useful to anyone else with the language issue. I will also try to keep updating from the field once I am on the ground-so for now I am headed out in 15 minutes on the beginning of what I hope to be a great adventure! :plane:
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Chris, may the force be with you. :8)
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I'm very interested in your impression of Lugansk. Good luck!!!
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Chris, may the force be with you. :8)
And I shall resist the temptations of the dark side!
I'm very interested in your impression of Lugansk. Good luck!!!
From the tons of photos I looked at pre trip, looks much like Kharkov, which I visited last March. Lots of heavy industry, and people to work it. The lady I am meeting seems really nice, as was her friend who helped with translations on Skype. Not like the old reputation of being a scammer hotspot. Really looking forward to my first New Years in the FSU, and hoping it will be the first of many. Going to be interesting, to say the least! :thumbsup:
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Hope everything goes well, have a great trip! :thumbsup:
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Chis have a great one we are all behind you :)
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Just give a sign - we'll immediately call 911 ;D
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Just give a sign - we'll immediately call 911 ;D
Just send cash! :chuckle:
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Just give a sign - we'll immediately call 911 ;D
Just send cash! :chuckle:
Western Union?
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Just give a sign - we'll immediately call 911 ;D
Just send cash! :chuckle:
Western Union?
Да, моя любовь ...
:chuckle:
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Just give a sign - we'll immediately call 911 ;D
Just send cash! :chuckle:
Chris, u r not in Lugansk yet... but started scamming already :fighting0025:
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We had many Skype sessions already, and countless emails over a period of a few months. The most difficult part will be the language barrier as she speaks almost no English, and my Russian isn't much better. But we both have out dictionaries, and I downloaded translator software onto my tablet, and also a couple electronic phrase books, and an electronic dictionary.
Did this myself on my first visit and it works fine for simple conversation but it is hopeless when things get serious or there are misunderstandings! Hopefully you will only be using this in the short term if things do progress with this lady!
Anyways, good luck and as a bonus you are visiting FSU at the best time of the year IMHO :thumbsup:
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Lugansk day one:
The flight obviously had its ups and downs-4 to be exact, because it took 4 planes to reach Donetsk. This is when the fun really started. I was met at the airport by Olga’s friend, because Olga was stuck at work. This was no big deal, as she wrote that it might happen. It turned out to be a very foggy day in the region, with some snow flurries. It looked as if they had recently gotten freezing rain, because all along the road between Donetsk and Lugansk the trees and brush were all shimmering white. I have to say it was a beautiful sight!
This was my first experience on the roads in the FSU outside the city, and as expected, they were in terrible condition. So between the roads being so bumpy, and the driving of the taxi and the other people on the road, let’s just say I didn’t need coffee to stay awake during that 2 hour trip, even after being up for almost 22 hours by this time.
We picked Olga up at the place she works. Olga’s friend had been telling me how excited she was to meet me, and it’s all she could talk about. Apparently she had been telling anyone who would listen! Lol When she walked up to the cab, I got out right away to see the most beautiful woman looking at me, giving me this big happy grin! She said privet, I replied in kind. And not being able to resist, I grabbed her, and picked her up in a big bear hug! She just threw her arms around me and laughed! ;D We got back in the taxi, and headed to the apartment she had rented for me.
The first thing she did was to grab my hand, and hold it the entire trip. When we arrived, this is when I got my first shock-the taxi bill of nearly $400! Well, there went my budget, and a good chunk of my spending money for the trip. Looks like I’m taking the bus back to the airport! Lol
Saw the apartment she rented, and the place is great! She really did well, and proved my trust in her was well placed. I just dropped off my luggage quick and ran back outside because we had decided that since Olga and I were going to celebrate New Year’s Eve together at the apartment, and she decided she was going to cook, we needed to go shopping.
I was taken to a local big sized grocery store, and got my first experience grocery shopping with a FSUW. For those who have never been to a Russian type market with a FSUW, this is a must do experience. Other than the completely different type of offerings, even the most common stuff such as butter is in a form that is completely unrecognizable to those of us from the west.
Luckily I have a small Russian market in the area I live, so had some idea what to expect. But the place I saw was on the scale of any major Western grocery store.
So Olga proceeded to stock me up with a whole cart full of stuff, as well as some things I wanted to cook a meal for her later in the week as promised. So much healthy food, (and a little not so good), I don’t know how I am going to fare eating like a bunny! Hehe!
But I have to say, the girl knows how to plan meals. Plus she stocked up on a little wine and champagne for our upcoming celebration. Of course this came with more sticker shock at the check-out, costing me over $160. This trip is getting expensive already, and we haven’t even spent out first full day together.
Olga then called her friend to come back and help lug the groceries home. After getting back in the apartment, I had the most pleasant surprise of my trip so far! I had finally gotten to see Olga in the light, and without her heavy winter coat. She was wearing a mini with leggings, and a tight shape hugging top. I had never in my dreams thought she would be so tiny!
Yet she was the most beautiful woman I had ever put my arms around without getting slapped! (Kidding) I guess after so many years with my ex who was over 240 lbs., a lady who is only 106 is quite a shock to the system! Now though the fun was beginning. After unpacking all the groceries, I had not one, but 2 FSUW in my kitchen whipping up cold cuts, cheese, bread, smoked fish, fresh fruit, and more because they thought I needed to be fed right.
Apparently airplane food just isn’t proper! Of course they also brought out the Martini Blanco to wash it down with. After we all ate some, the girls decided it was getting late, and that I needed some proper rest after my trip. Olga also had to make some stops on her way home, so I walked the ladies out and waited with them until their taxi came.
Olga of course gave me a huge hug before she left, and told me to be ready for the next morning-it was going to be a busy day!
In summary, this was the best first date in the FSU I could have hoped for, other than the costs which I am sure is going to hamper things down the line a bit. I wanted to thank Larry for the little kick in the butt I needed to get over here, and say that he was absolutely correct in his assessment.
Larry, the pics don’t do her justice-she’s 10x better in person! But I had better be careful. This lady I think will be too easy to fall in love with, and I may just end up hitched. She fun, sharp as a tack, kind, considerate, loving, and as True Blue FSU as one can get. She’s only been gone 2 hours, and I miss her already……
To be continued!
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Lugansk Day 2
This day started out pretty well. I had gotten a good amount of sleep, and not a hint of jet lag to foul what should be the best day of the trip. This is when Olga had planned to spend the day alone with me, and we were to bring in the New Year together. She arrived a little after the noon time we had arranged to meet. I still don’t have a phone or internet.
I was told it won’t happen until after the holidays. Guess I don’t have much choice! Of course Olga’s friend came along, and they decided they wanted to go for a walk.
We made it about 3 blocks until she spotted a mall-of course Olga wanted to stop! She made a beeline right to a woman’s fashion store and soon was picking out dresses to try.
I spent my time trying to be inconspicuous, but was quickly summoned by the sales lady to sit right in front of the dressing room curtain. Apparently now I was to be a fashion judge! Olga tried on several very sexy dresses, and I was to give my opinion on each. This lasted maybe ½ hour, and was probably the most enjoyable time I have ever spent in a woman’s clothing store.
After the shopping trip, we ended coming back to the apartment. The girls again made food, saying I should eat more! Lol But it wasn’t long after that Olga started to get repeated phone calls. Apparently her work was calling wanting her to come in. The worker that day had come in drunk, and they needed someone to take over.
Since she’s the supervisor, and couldn’t get anyone else to work on New Year’s eve, I was told she had no choice but to go into work. This was about 2:00, and she said she would be back around 7:00 wearing her new (and VERY sexy) dress. I cooked a special dinner as planned, which was ready for her planned arrival time.
Well, as I am writing this it’s 11:49pm, and she still has not shown up. What’s even worse, I gave her my only set of keys to the apartment and building entrance to let herself back in when she got here. Now I can’t even leave to see the midnight celebration lest I am locked out of the building.
So now I am here alone, drinking by myself, and realizing that despite what others said, my own gut instinct maybe was right and I am totally screwed. Weird, since yesterday there was absolutely no sign of anything odd. Either the “normal” woman totally flaked, or something serious happened.
I suspect that if she turns out to be another pro dater, my FSU quest is over once and for all- I can be royally screwed at home in my own language, and for a whole lot less money or the feeling of being trapped in a very foreign country.
The only difference being that the women at home aren’t nearly as beautiful. Now I wonder, is she out celebrating New Years in her new dress with her real boyfriend? This is the WORST New Years I ever had, and to speak honestly, right now I wish I had never come here.
Just as a note for anyone else coming to the FSU for New Years, apparently it one hell of a celebration. I heard parties going on throughout the downtown area. There was a huge gathering at the town square by the big New Years tree. They had DJs playing holiday music all day starting about noon.
The lack of original Russian holiday music was very apparent as I only heard maybe a handful of songs in Russian-and most didn’t sound very holiday like. But I did hear other songs including English language x-mas songs, and one song in Spanish that I know-Feliz Navidad (Merry Christmas), which they repeated maybe every 20-30 minutes throughout the day.
At around dark or a little after, I noticed a large influx of people to the square. All evening since dark, there has been a series of Chinese lanterns floating across the skyline-it is quite a sight! As midnight approached, maybe around 11:00, fireworks could be seen and heard throughout the area.
I could hear them, and sometimes see the light over the rooftops of nearby buildings. This actually started with a few each hour, on the hour, starting about 6:00. As each hour got closer to midnight, the fireworks grew more numerous. Once midnight struck, I didn’t need a clock to know the time-fireworks citywide could be seen and heard. There arose a great cheer form the square, and from other areas nearby in the city that even drowned out much of the noise of the fireworks.
It is now 1:10 am, and the fireworks around the city have not let up. Another hour, another volley. I suspect this will go on all night. I am just surprised at the lack of traffic anywhere with all the people out and about. I wish I could get some photos, but it’s not possible being locked in the apartment.
The balcony does not allow a good view of anything going on unfortunately. But in my opinion, I think that this could be a great experience for any westerner.
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Lugansk day 3
Well, it’s now around 12:30 on New Years day and I still have not seen or heard from Olga. If she ever reappears, she will have some serious explaining to do. Because I don’t have the building key yet, I cannot even leave to try and find a sim card for my phone or find someplace to get internet access.
I feel like a prisoner here, and totally screwed. There is life on the streets now, and it looks like there is some kind of celebration going on at the square. It’s another foggy, misty, sunless day. It seems appropriate somehow, as it reflects my mood. How is it possible it could come to this? One day looks so full of promise, falling for a very beautiful and seemingly sweet woman, then the next to feel so hopeless?
Day 3 update
It has started to rain, and the temperature is dropping. There is some snow starting to get mixed in with the rain, and I suspect by tomorrow the streets may be white. Olga and her friend finally appeared about 4:00pm.
I definitely got an excuse, but not something that I would have imagined. Apparently the worker who was responsible to close the store forgot to lock the door, and it didn’t take long for the place to be burglarized. I was told that after the alarm went off, it took the police a very long time to respond, and by then the place was pretty much emptied.
Of course being New Years, the police had other things to worry about other than taking reports of a break in, so were in no hurry. Olga tells me she had spent all night and most of today at the police station. And tomorrow she has to go into work to take inventory of what is left to give the police a detailed report of what was stolen.
I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, and I was all ready to lay into her once she got here for leaving me stranded. But instead, the first thing she did when she came in the door was to give me a great big hug, and cried on my shoulder. She told me she was so sorry that she missed spending the evening with me as planned, and was so worried I would be ok.
By the expression on her face, and the way she looked, either they had one hell of a fun night out, or the story was true. At this point I am not sure, but I dearly hope that she was truthful and sincere. Olga did seem to worry about me, and that I was eating and sleeping enough. When I told her I had waited up for her until almost 5:00 am, she ordered me to get some sleep! Lol
Monday is coming up, and I am told I should have internet sometime during the day. I am waiting on this to make these posts, and to be able to again contact the outside world.
I am also hoping to spend some one on one time with Olga for a change, to see how it goes. She tells me that she is very much hoping to eventually make a family with me, so maybe this is a good sign. She obviously loves children by the way she cooed at the babies and small children whenever we ran across any.
She has the exact same look in her eye as my ex did when it came to children-that deep desire to have them. If I read the signs right, I am apparently her chosen one to give them to her eventually, (if I don’t screw it up) and I can definitely see her at my side in life.
But first the bonds of trust have to be made, which under the circumstances may take some doing. But dark as my thoughts have become in the past day, I had to also wonder. If her intentions were to scam, why would she invest so much time making sure I had plenty of good food, preparing some good dishes to eat, and telling me she wants to make a family with me.
My past experience with the pro dater in Kharkov showed me that those kinds of women don’t invest anything but only want to reap the rewards. Olga has not been like this, instead she has been very sweet and attentive. Whenever we go out, she always takes possession of my hand, as if to show anyone going past that I am hers.
But I am still a bit confused about her signals. She will sit with her friend instead of me, but perhaps so she can look at me when we talk, as she keeps eye contact and does focus on me during conversations. When I open the door, I am given a beautiful smile and a genuine look of happiness to see me. This cannot be faked!
When we say goodbye for the evening, we give each other a big hug, and I kiss her cheek. But I am yet to get a kiss in return. I know she has some pretty heavy emotional baggage from past experiences, and her past with dating Western men has not been a good one for her either.
Perhaps she is holding back until she can trust, which is something we had discussed a little before the trip and seems to be the case. Due to the crazy circumstances lately, we have so little time together as of yet so I am sure this was a lot to do with it. Olga has to get used to me as a person, and we really need to know each other better.
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Day 4
As I suspected, the snow was fairly heavy overnight. Everything is white, and the look of the city has changed dramatically. Now it really looks like Christmas here with all the decorations, holiday music, and lights. Once it got light outside and the snow let up for a while I decided to do some exploring and get some photos.
Now I really appreciate the time I took to learn Cyrillic! It’s amazing all that I missed on my last trip not being able to read the language. Now I can identify cafes, bars, grocery stores, and even found the local apothecary. I assume it must be due to the holidays because everything is closed.
There is very little traffic, and few people out walking. I have many questions about the area and the traditions here in Ukraine. Unfortunately I will have to wait until the Ukrainian toothpick twins show up later today.
Being Monday, I am hoping to finally get internet access hooked up at the apartment and finally have a link to the outside world. I do not know what time Olga will show up, or what condition she will be in. Last night she looked like a nervous wreck, and really tired.
As I think about the events of the past days, I think I should have been very angry. Yet last night when I looked at Olga and saw what she looked like, all the anger and disappointment I had instantly vanished. I don’t know if I could ever be really angry with her for anything.
I think back on the things she said, and I know now that also much of what was not said is very important and a strong indication of her wishes and desires. Maybe I am overanalyzing things, but I think with the vast differences in language and culture, much thinking of the conversations are necessary to avoid misinterpretation and crossed signals.
Such questions as when if I had thought of coming to Lugansk again, and when. Why would I want to learn Russian, wouldn’t it be better for Olga to learn English? Also the question of why I would want to get married here, instead of in the US. Most definitely test questions that I hope I have passed!
But as I look back, to what purpose were these questions asked? I think I see a pattern here that seems to indicate her desire to live in the US after getting married.
I am still a little amazed at the misinformation the girls have about the US, still thinking it’s some sort of paradise where everything is so wonderful. For example, Olga complained that it took the police about 20 minutes to respond to a call. I had to explain that at least in the city where I live, it is much worse.
It has been in my local news lately about instances where for example one woman called 911 about a possible intruder in her home and it took the police over 6 hours to respond. Another incidence where a murder occurred and it took over 4 hours to respond. The police do not even respond at all to calls about gunfire because it’s too common, and they are overwhelmed. The girls seemed shocked by this, but I hope it dispelled some of their illusion of the US being some kind of paradise.
I think back to our letters we wrote in the beginning, and the fact that we think almost identical and have the same views on almost everything despite the cultural differences and completely different life experiences. In this matter, we are a perfect match for each other.
But spending time together I see some differences in lifestyle that reminds my much of how my grandfather lived. He was from the old country in Germany, and even after almost 70 years of living in the US, some things he did never changed. Olga does many of the same things my grandfather did, contrary to what I think of as common sense. Some things I think were quite funny disagreements.
Groceries: After arriving back at my apartment with the groceries, Olga and I started putting things away. I found all the canned goods in the refrigerator, and the fruit sitting above the radiator. I took the canned goods and put them in the cabinet. A few minutes later, I found them back in the fridge. I then put them back in the cabinet, and she put them back in the fridge.
This went on for several times back and forth. Today, the cans are in the fridge! LOL
Coffee: I never thought making instant coffee could be so difficult-put water in the mug, put the mug in the microwave, heat it, and drop in a spoon of coffee. This is what I did when I made a cup of coffee for Olga.
I had just pulled the mug of hot water out of the microwave and closed the door when she walked into the kitchen. She asked if I had just used the microwave to heat it, which of course I told her yes. I got a look like I was some kind of culinary caveman, and she proceeded to dump out the water.
She then put water in the heating pot, and boiled it that way. Whenever I nuked my mug of water, she would just shake her head “no”, give me a disgusted kind of look, and remake it her way.
Room temperature: I had been told that despite the outside temperature, people of the FSU love their indoor heat. This seems to be the case here as the apartment is often sweltering hot. So I would sometimes crack open the window for some fresh cool air.
Well, that went over like a lead balloon! I was quickly reminded of the common belief that people get sick just because it’s cold outside, or if there is a draft in the room. The only upside is that the ladies then have no issue with wearing their very skimpy outfits in the apartment. As appealing as this is, I think it only made the temperature inside the apartment climb a lot more. :chuckle:
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Pics:
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0129.jpg)
New Years tree in the square
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0125.jpg)
New Years banner at the square
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0115A.png)
woman driver with the "high heel" sign in the back window
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0119.jpg)
Roadside landmark-and a lucky photo shot!
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0126.jpg)
Street photo looking towards downtown
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0124.jpg)
Tht "Toothpick Twins", Olga (on left) and friend/translator
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Great trip report so far! Good to finally be able to read some stuff from you!!! Quite a ride youre having so far!
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Christian, you of all people know how bumpy the roads are here! :chuckle: And that was only the start of it. But I am hoping as of tomorrow evening I can try to get some solo time with my lady to see how it works. The language thing is going to suck, but hey, it could all be worth it!
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hope it turns out well, keep your head above the clouds, all will be good!
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Christian, you of all people know how bumpy the roads are here! :chuckle: And that was only the start of it. But I am hoping as of tomorrow evening I can try to get some solo time with my lady to see how it works. The language thing is going to suck, but hey, it could all be worth it!
It WILL be all worth it.. no matter what the outcome is: you made the long trip to a difficult country during its most difficult period of the year with some difficult personal setbacks..all this on your own and....still typing away on RUA.com. Most guys would never have the balls to even consider it.. i wouldnt.. not at this time of year. youre a hero!
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Coffee: I never thought making instant coffee could be so difficult-put water in the mug, put the mug in the microwave, heat it, and drop in a spoon of coffee. This is what I did when I made a cup of coffee for Olga. I had just pulled the mug of hot water out of the microwave and closed the door when she walked into the kitchen. She asked if I had just used the microwave to heat it, which of course I told her yes. I got a look like I was some kind of culinary caveman, and she proceeded to dump out the water. She then put water in the heating pot, and boiled it that way. Whenever I nuked my mug of water, she would just shake her head “no”, give me a disgusted kind of look, and remake it her way.
Just a very tiny point, but I honestly do believe that I learn more about the USA from this site than ever I do about Russia.
I'm certainly not having a go at you Chris - it must obviously be an American thing - but I think that only an American would think of trying to boil water in a microwave rather than a kettle.
I just suddenly thought though - do you even have electic kettles in the USA?
If you're doing it for speed, actually, it's generally quicker to boil water in a kettle than a microwave.
Perhaps the look on her face was because she thought you hadn't actually boiled the water but just heated it up. I would suggest that tea and coffee - not too sure about instant though - do taste better made with freshly boiled water rather than just hot water.
I presume when you say ''heating pot'' that you do mean what the rest of the world calls a kettle - but I may be wrong. So, as you mentioned that you'd been studying the russian alphabet, the Russian for kettle is чайник chaynik.
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Videos!
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Chris, do u need lullaby? :fighting0025:
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do you even have electic kettles in the USA?
We do have electric kettles in the US, but I think they are slightly less common than kettles that are heated on the stovetop. I bought one of the latter shortly after I filed a fiancee visa application, in preparation for the arrival of my FSUW. Unfortunately, it's on the shelf in anticipation of my next FSU fiancee.
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except for in the village, electric waterboilers are quite common here :laugh:
Oh an Chris: dont drink tapwater!!!
Normally boiling things will kill all bacteria but here there are many metals and other pollution in the water.. stick to bottled water or youll have a headache...
Great vids!!!
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ok, first at nicknick. The US used to have kettles such as these, but they took forever to heat up due to the country's power being only 120 volts. In other countries everything is 220/240 volts, so allowing more heating capacity without blowing the circuit. The kettle here is pretty fast, and heats about the same as the microwave. In the US, it would take about 5-10 minutes to heat the same amount of water to the same temp. My grandfather had an electric kettle dating back to I would guess the late 40s or early 50s that he used until the day he died. He would turn it on, and go out for a long walk in the hope the water would be hot when he returned. A microwave does the job in 60-90 seconds for a 1200 plus watt unit.
Christian, you of all people know how bumpy the roads are here! :chuckle: And that was only the start of it. But I am hoping as of tomorrow evening I can try to get some solo time with my lady to see how it works. The language thing is going to suck, but hey, it could all be worth it!
It WILL be all worth it.. no matter what the outcome is: you made the long trip to a difficult country during its most difficult period of the year with some difficult personal setbacks..all this on your own and....still typing away on RUA.com. Most guys would never have the balls to even consider it.. i wouldnt.. not at this time of year. youre a hero!
Well, I don't understand the hero part, and don't get why things should be any more difficult here this time of year than any other? The weather is pleasant and mild, the streets are quiet, and people are in a good holiday mood! Difficult as when I travelled for work and would spend months in places like New Jersey! That was a hell unlike anyplace else I have been to! :ROFL: But it about as rough working all winter in North central Maine, or being in places like New Orleans or Biloxi during July and August. Scary is driving through the mountains during a blizzard, or being a contractor in Saudi. Or even having to cross a picket line in Pa. for work as a contractor, only because it paid $30/hr with nearly unlimited hours possible. That's what I consider having balls! :Stickouttongue2: Goint to Ukraine chasing some really pretty tail? That's just for fun, and hopefully to gain a lifelong "reward" for the investment. :thumbsup:
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except for in the village, electric waterboilers are quite common here :laugh:
Oh an Chris: dont drink tapwater!!!
Normally boiling things will kill all bacteria but here there are many metals and other pollution in the water.. stick to bottled water or youll have a headache...
Great vids!!!
No headache, but maybe the metals in the water might explain this insanity of coming back for more! LOL
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Goint to Ukraine chasing some really pretty tail? That's just for fun, and hopefully to gain a lifelong "reward" for the investment. :thumbsup:
Thats the spirit!!!!!
Serious but strange question: if you happen to walk by a mcdonalds can you give me the price of a Big Mac Menu?
That way i know how the prices in general are in your city compared to kiev, odessa and other places..the Big Mac Index never fails.
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That's an awesome idea, and a great gauge i think! I haven't seen one yet, but I'll keep my eyes open. After a week of this bunny lady food, I may need a big mac! :popcorn:
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How is the chase going - any rewards :hidechair:
Otherwise we will send Mila with money, lawyers and guns! :party0031:
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How is the chase going - any rewards :hidechair:
Otherwise we will send Mila with money, lawyers and guns! :party0031:
He already payed for taxi 400$ >>> so flight from Moscow to Vlad costs ;D
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Milaa,
To help your English comprehension the reference to lawyers, money and guns comes from a great Warren Zevon song, it even has a reference to the Russians and a desperate man. And the classic line "the shit has hit the fan".
There are enough you tube versions, here is one.
AvHdB
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Chris, really well written report and respect due for going into the level of detail you have so far.
A few questions.
$400 for taxi in a country such as Ukraine doesn't sound normal! For example my last memory of my ladies city (In Russia not Ukraine) you could have a taxi for 200 rubles (about £4) per hour!!!
$160 in a grocery store in Ukraine, what apart from alcohol could possibly run a bill like that up?
Out of curiosity did you fund the shopping trip to the Mall or did she?
IMHO the excuse for leaving you alone during New Years Eve (thus missing one of the highlights of FSU life) sadly sounds like absolute grade A bullshit. If the excuse is true why didn't she send a friend over to tell you the news rather then leaving you to stew (without being able to go anywhere) until mid-afternoon the next day? The most likely truth is she went out for a night out with her friends (or local boyfriend) and most likely got hammered and waited until she had slept off the effects before coming to meet you the next day! Her actions show a total lack of respect for you, despite the show of affection the next day!
Regardless, I sincerely wish you luck and as said above respect is due for posting what you have. Hopefully things will improve.
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How is the chase going - any rewards :hidechair:
Otherwise we will send Mila with money, lawyers and guns! :party0031:
He already payed for taxi 400$ >>> so flight from Moscow to Vlad costs ;D
Yep, 2 and half years my misses paid just under £300 for a one-way ticket from Vlad to Moscow and then onto St Pete!
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How is the chase going - any rewards :hidechair:
Otherwise we will send Mila with money, lawyers and guns! :party0031:
Things are looking up here, life is getting good! :thumbsup: No need to arm Mila! I think I have a "protector" now- :bow:
So here's the full update:
It has been a great blessing to finally get the internet. As Olga and her friend sat here for several hours before Olga had to go to work, we were able to have a personal conversation without anyone in the middle. Many things were discussed, and questions answered. The friend only was needed sometimes when a word wouldn't translate right, such as when I wrote "tablet" referring to my tablet computer, but it translated to "drugs" or "pills". It was a very good system, and afforded privacy with a safety net.
We discussed everything from philosophy to economics, compared standards of living between countries, money, and most importantly about relationships. For one, she didn't understand how a "rich westerner" didn't seem to have unlimited funds by Ukrainian standards. :D I had to explain how even my rent alone was nearly twice her monthly salary and my cell phone bill was over 1/4 of her salary. To say she was shocked would be an understatement, but at least she finally understood it was all perspective.
There will need to be a lot more discussion about our relationship, and time needs to be spent together. She is still cautious, as am I under the circumstances. I am really beginning to care for her a lot, but it will take time to create a true bond. We definately have come to be more relaxed around each other, and have developed some chemistry. We discussed hypothetical things as our possible future together. We had at first discussed what language would be our common language, which of course turned into deciding what country would be best to live. It was decided that Ukraine was the best choice. This was her idea first, after she weighed the options.
We then went into how to make a living as a family here in Ukraine. I asked her if she ever thought of having her own business, and sure, she had a dream but thought it impossible because the startup costs would be about 3 months salary. Taking a bank loan at over 20% was not going to be practical, or good sense. She wants to open a beauty salon, which can be done for peanuts (my scale) because she already has most of the things, and she already has clients. She goes to client's homes and does the work there because she doesn't have a shop. But as she says, much of the money goes back into paying for her taxi, and lost time commuting from one client to another.
As for my income, I can do a variation of what I was starting to do in the US-internet sales, and even a retail store. I have the suppliers already set up, and I can still far undersell anyone in town and yet make a good profit. Also talked about going wholesale to a degree, and she thinks it has a lot of promise. (not giving away my ideas here-don't want any competition!) But I did explain a proven business model from the US and Europe that is only just beginning here, so it is probably the best time to get into it. Olga's only question that threw me for a loop was how soon could I make the move? Now I think it may have started to cross the line from hypothetical to reality. Guess I will have to see how things go over the next several days, and give it some serious thought.
As to local news, the city has arisen from the dead! The sun came out for the first time since I arrived, and so did all the people! Now there is heavy traffic downtown, everything is open, people are on the streets and sidewalks. Life has resumed to the fullest. The attractions are again open, and am now to meet Olga's only family tomorrow-her older sister. We are to go to a local art museum, and spend the afternoon there. It's very difficult to find something to do on the cheap here, as even going for drinks costs a small fortune for cover charge to get in. I offered to make a dinner for all of us, but apparently Olga's sister was not comfortable with this. Oh well, I tried! lol
I will try to get more pics tomorrow, and keep the updates coming in
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Quick answers here Bruce-Groceries are at US prices here now, on average for most things. I nearly had a coronary when I saw the bill and only had 3 bags of stuff. I only spent about 20 bucks on booze.
The taxi thing I am almost positive was a "westerner" rate, even if it was for a round trip for a total of 4 hours
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Quick answers here Bruce-Groceries are at US prices here now, on average for most things. I nearly had a coronary when I saw the bill and only had 3 bags of stuff. I only spent about 20 bucks on booze.
The taxi thing I am almost positive was a "westerner" rate, even if it was for a round trip for a total of 4 hours
A good lady caring for your wallet would argue with the taxi driver and get it down to a proper rate for you! (Which might still be a little inflated, but nothing outrageous)
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Chris, yesterday I wrote to a new person here to hurry up and then slow down. I admire the way you hurried up to get over and meet her, but hoping that now you'll slow down. My concerns mirror Bruce, especially the timing of the shopping trip for new dresses so soon after you'd arrived, coincidentally just in time for a nice dress for New Year's Eve.
Then the amount of the groceries described sparks some doubt in the back of my mind as if there was prior knowledge that you'd be stranded in the apartment. There are generally buzzers down at the entry so I'm wondering about her taking your key as well. If you have your key now, how does she get in or let you know she's arrived?
I certainly don't mean to rain on your parade and hope any fears you have are unfounded, but remember that both pro-daters and scammers (not saying she is either) have one thing working against them--time. It makes sense, no matter how things are going, to use time to your advantage. As a foreigner it is one of the few advantages you have. Don't be afraid to use it. Were it me at this juncture I'd stop any planning of where will we live/what will we do and begin using time to find out who she is and let her get to know who you are.
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That being said, I hope you also find time to get out and enjoy Lugansk and have some vacation time for yourself as well.
I wish you safety and success!
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I agree, I got pretty well screwed on the Taxi deal. That's a given
Bruce, about the New Years thing- When sh did come back the next day, she was obviously exhausted, and seemed genuinely upset, sad, and sorry about missing our arranged plans as well as having my keys. She had not been out drinking or she would have had signs of it yet. She could not contact me as I stated in the TR, I had no phone or internet yet to be reached. I do have to say that during the night I was wasting time, I did think of all these possibilities which tended to make me even more suspicious, angry, and moody. It's tough, because those feelings tend to feed on themselves and grow worse as time goes on. So if something was legitimately wrong, then many wrong assumptions could be made. Still, I am not trying to defend her or make any excuses, only to tell what I felt and observed as facts.
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IMHO the excuse for leaving you alone during New Years Eve (thus missing one of the highlights of FSU life) sadly sounds like absolute grade A bullshit. If the excuse is true why didn't she send a friend over to tell you the news rather then leaving you to stew (without being able to go anywhere) until mid-afternoon the next day? The most likely truth is she went out for a night out with her friends (or local boyfriend) and most likely got hammered and waited until she had slept off the effects before coming to meet you the next day! Her actions show a total lack of respect for you, despite the show of affection the next day!
I agree with BruceLee. Sometimes events happen that are absolutely out of the woman's control and she can't even get word to us, but generally not. If we like a girl we want to give her the benefit of the doubt and accept her story. And many of these women are champion excuse-makers. If excuse-making were an Olympic event the Ukrainian team would take the gold every four years. By that I don't mean that all Ukrainian girls are liars, but only that the country seems to produce a huge number of well-practiced liars.
She told you two stories for the same day (new year's eve, a day that FSUW usually spend going out with friends/boyfriends), the first that one of her workers came in to work drunk and she had to go in to replace her, and the second that there was a break-in at the store and she had to be at the police station all night to deal with it. The first story probably happens rarely. The second very, very rarely. Yet she asked you to believe that both occurred, on the same day. It's possible but it just doesn't seem likely. Bruce's explanation seems much more likely.
And if Bruce's explanation is the correct version of events it means that Olga 1) lied to you, and 2) treated you with a complete lack of respect. After all, you travelled thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars to visit her at new year's.
Since the store break-in was reported to the police I wonder whether there is any way to verify it with them.
Were it me at this juncture I'd stop any planning of where will we live/what will we do and begin using time to find out who she is and let her get to know who you are.
I also agree with Mendy's advice. You need to make sure about Olga before going any farther down this road. There are too many causes for concern, things you need to clear up.
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Chris, yesterday I wrote to a new person here to hurry up and then slow down. I admire the way you hurried up to get over and meet her, but hoping that now you'll slow down. My concerns mirror Bruce, especially the timing of the shopping trip for new dresses so soon after you'd arrived, coincidentally just in time for a nice dress for New Year's Eve.
Then the amount of the groceries described sparks some doubt in the back of my mind as if there was prior knowledge that you'd be stranded in the apartment. There are generally buzzers down at the entry so I'm wondering about her taking your key as well. If you have your key now, how does she get in or let you know she's arrived?
I certainly don't mean to rain on your parade and hope any fears you have are unfounded, but remember that both pro-daters and scammers (not saying she is either) have one thing working against them--time. It makes sense, no matter how things are going, to use time to your advantage. As a foreigner it is one of the few advantages you have. Don't be afraid to use it. Were it me at this juncture I'd stop any planning of where will we live/what will we do and begin using time to find out who she is and let her get to know who you are.
I agree completely! Although to set one thing straight, there are no buzzers here except on the apartment door-not outside the building. I also told her friend that Olga and I need some alone time, and she agreed. ;D The groceries were part my idea, because I wanted to make a special dish for New Years-and she wouldn't have to cook. Some of the stuff was normal groceries-milk, coffee, bread, cheese, fruit, salt, sugar. Normal staples, but it added up quick. I just don't want to read into something too much as when someone wants to see red flags they will find a way to see them. But I am keeping my eyes open and my perspective in check.
Larry, your point is taken, and that's exactly what I am doing. I am also arranging some time alone with Olga-no friend around to see what she is like without any third party influence. I already learned today that we communicate on a much deeper and intimate level when we started to use the translator on my tablet and kept the translator out of it-though she was available just in case as what happened with the "tablet" example. I want to know if her shyness goes away too! ;)
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Now I wonder, is she out celebrating New Years in her new dress with her real boyfriend? This is the WORST New Years I ever had, and to speak honestly, right now I wish I had never come here.
Did you pay for the dress? Based on what you have written, it does seem that you are potentially being milked for a lot of cash and the "I have been called to work" is usually a lame excuse. Also, leaving you pretty much locked in your apartment while she goes off to "work" makes her quite a [fill in your preferred expletive].
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Great TR Chris! I'm glad to read you're able to work(ing) through some of the challenges logistical and relationship wise that have cropped up on this trip.
As discussed in chat, you've had your plate full so continue to be mindful of search fatigue, stay frosty (look before you leap) and take it one step at a time.
I'm thinking good thoughts for you. Looking forward to more submitions (TR). :)
Brass
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Now I wonder, is she out celebrating New Years in her new dress with her real boyfriend? This is the WORST New Years I ever had, and to speak honestly, right now I wish I had never come here.
Did you pay for the dress? Based on what you have written, it does seem that you are potentially being milked for a lot of cash and the "I have been called to work" is usually a lame excuse. Also, leaving you pretty much locked in your apartment while she goes off to "work" makes her quite a [fill in your preferred expletive].
Ouch, harsh.
I'm getting bad vibes about this. For the next few days, keep your eyes and SENSES extremely receptive. You'll find out physically if she is really into you.
I have my own theory which departs from the others at one point.
Chris, hang in there and please be very observant. Use your big head the force.
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Nice videos. I noticed the ones you took on the street in Lugansk have that cinema verite style that Christian films in Ukraine. I suspect this may become an increasingly common accompaniment to trip reports. It does provide an element we don't commonly get from trip reports, a feel for what it's like on the ground.
You'll find out physically if she is really into you.
Muzh makes an excellent point. I mentioned this in chat but I'll post it here for the benefit of any newcomers to the FSUW search. You generally know it when they're into you. I'm not saying this can't be faked, but when you experience the absence of real affection you can be pretty sure they're not really into you.
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IMHO the excuse for leaving you alone during New Years Eve (thus missing one of the highlights of FSU life) sadly sounds like absolute grade A bullshit. If the excuse is true why didn't she send a friend over to tell you the news rather then leaving you to stew (without being able to go anywhere) until mid-afternoon the next day? The most likely truth is she went out for a night out with her friends (or local boyfriend) and most likely got hammered and waited until she had slept off the effects before coming to meet you the next day! Her actions show a total lack of respect for you, despite the show of affection the next day!
I agree with BruceLee. Sometimes events happen that are absolutely out of the woman's control and she can't even get word to us, but generally not. If we like a girl we want to give her the benefit of the doubt and accept her story. And many of these women are champion excuse-makers. If excuse-making were an Olympic event the Ukrainian team would take the gold every four years. By that I don't mean that all Ukrainian girls are liars, but only that the country seems to produce a huge number of well-practiced liars.
She told you two stories for the same day (new year's eve, a day that FSUW usually spend going out with friends/boyfriends), the first that one of her workers came in to work drunk and she had to go in to replace her, and the second that there was a break-in at the store and she had to be at the police station all night to deal with it. The first story probably happens rarely. The second very, very rarely. Yet she asked you to believe that both occurred, on the same day. It's possible but it just doesn't seem likely. Bruce's explanation seems much more likely.
And if Bruce's explanation is the correct version of events it means that Olga 1) lied to you, and 2) treated you with a complete lack of respect. After all, you travelled thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars to visit her at new year's.
Since the store break-in was reported to the police I wonder whether there is any way to verify it with them.
Were it me at this juncture I'd stop any planning of where will we live/what will we do and begin using time to find out who she is and let her get to know who you are.
I also agree with Mendy's advice. You need to make sure about Olga before going any farther down this road. There are too many causes for concern, things you need to clear up.
Hi Chris,
I have to agree with Larry and the others. As someone who was lied to and used by a Ukrainian girl I can attest to their abilities to manipulate you. Please be very careful. My alarm bells went off on the grocery bill. I found groceries to be much less expensive in Odessa than here in Western New York. Also the immediate trip to the mall was another red flag. If you bought her a dress for New Years Eve and she cared about you, you would have seen her in it. Her excuses sound suspect. Even if this is the truth, she knew you were "trapped" in your apartment. By doing this she pretty much guaranteed you would not "run into her" that night if you ventured out on your own.
From my prospective you are getting taken for a ride. Please be very careful and keep your eyes and ears open. Also, keep thinking with your big head. I know how fantastic it is to be with the lovely ladies of FSU. But you need to keep your wits about you.
Good luck and keep us in the loop.
Lee
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Even if this is the truth, she knew you were "trapped" in your apartment. By doing this she pretty much guaranteed you would not "run into her" that night if you ventured out on your own.
Lee
Boy Lee, you are such a sage.
BTW, got any snow last night out there?
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Chris, I hate to say it, i tend to agree with most above. It happens fast you are in her world.
Keep in mind when a beautiful girl dressed to kill, gives you a hug and smiles at you, it is a good feeling.
It makes any of us want to justify what she says. The new years night thing is real bad! the shopping trip,and taxi are bad. But you are also there long enough to get a real feel fro what is going on.
Don't promise anything until you get home and had a chance to look back on it all.
Major plans can be talked about and dealt with on skype later!
Now is as much time together as possible. Are you meeting family and her friend?
Friends matter a lot, if she meet you to them it is important??? Even more important which friends.
Ask her some hard questions and watch for the way she answers as much as the answer itself!
best of luck and keep it real.
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I have a lot of serious questions to ask now I have a working translator-used it today to good effect, and she enjoyed using it too. This cut her friend out of the conversation, and kept things private. She opened up a lot, but we just ran out of time. I have a list of very important questions on the list yet, and I am setting up a time we can be alone without her "twin" here.
I meet her sister tomorrow (Wed.) which is her only family. I didn't even ask to meet family, she just announced she wanted me to meet. Yes, she's a good one for taking control of a situation, but got my end covered too, and already told her no about a few things she wanted to do. Seems to go over better also when I simply explain why, and she is very reasonable. I think I am learning her pretty well for the short time together so far. Mostly it's just the "feeling out" time, but progress is rapidly being made as we become more comfortable together. I have my eyes and ears open.
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Even if this is the truth, she knew you were "trapped" in your apartment. By doing this she pretty much guaranteed you would not "run into her" that night if you ventured out on your own.
Lee
Boy Lee, you are such a sage.
BTW, got any snow last night out there?
Not much snow at all. Just cold and wind. This is the strangest weather year so far. Maybe 3 inches of snow at my house so far. How is the weather in the Capitol region?
Lee
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Chris, I am curious, what did she ask to do, you said no to?
What is her job? and hours? or maybe i am being to nosy? :nod:
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ChrisE,
In almost every travel report there are red flags. They are there for you too.
My driver with a premium car factors about .70 € per kilometer. I bring him cheese and chocolate and I practice my Russian as I driven over the countryside.
The groceries when I was with Lena at the most expensive place in Kiev for three of us came to just over € 50,= this was two meals. Pasta and chicken and salmon and risotto (I brought the risotto) including one bottle on wine.
But you have been with Olga and only you can guage her sincerity firsthand. We are a bunch of back seat drivers. It really depends if she reveals more of herself and if you can see her greater circle of friends including her sister and how she interacts. But even this is no guarantee.
I would though put your foot down on any other expenditures and see how she reacts to this. Perhaps explain that you have come to be with her.
AvHdB
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Chris,
Excellent trip report, a very good read.
Chris I apologize immediately because what I write may offend you.
IMHO dump this woman and move on.
1) She was suppose to meet you at the airport - didn't happen
2) Friend should have taken care of the outrageous transport cost - didn't happen
3) Immediately takes you to the mall
4) Blows you off for New Year - has to work BS
5) Shows up at 4pm next day - slept it off but exhausted
6) No sign of affection after 4 days - no kiss, not sitting with you if friend is present
The most frustrating part of this was your response to her return on New Years day. You appear to be so relieved that you are not left alone in this foreign country that a smile and hug eliminate all that has been done.
Move on Chris. You seem like a really decent guy from your posts and trip report. Good luck in whatever you decide with this lady and your FSU pursuits.
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AvHdB:
Red flags can be found anywhere if one analyzes too much, yet I agree that anyone in this persuit needs to be on alert for the signs of trouble. I'm sure I may even unknowingly given Olga a couple red flags while here, but I know I am deadly serious in my intentions. It goes both ways, and nobody in this world is perfect. It's a matter of being logical, having an open mind, and being realistic. One has to weigh all the facts, and not just take something out of context-I'm not one to be tilting windmills!
As for the groceries, I don't know why this is such a popular topoic. It's not like she brought me the groceries and asked for money without a reciept. On the contrary, we both went to the store (no 'terp) and just went for the needed groceries. We planned several meals over the week, and this is what I have been living on. These are the REAL prices, not inflated by the lady, and not going crazy on any premium items. Even the cheese was something I picked out myself, because it was about the cheapest they had. It still came out to almost US $10/pound! :D Luckily, it was really good, just as all the things Olga chose. I for darn sure didn't know what some of the stuff was, but I think she did very well. She did ask me about certain items, if it was something I liked or not and seemed very concerned I ate well. I was certainly impressed at how she undertook this chore, and was very patient with me. Personally, I think she just enjoyed spending the time with me-not to mention having a guy in tow while in public! :chuckle:
NS1, as for Olga's work, she manages a retail store. From what I gather is that they sell a whole bunch of different items sort of like a small department store. I know they were selling holiday decorations because Olga was upset when a shipment of glass ornaments came in with a bulk of them broken, and the fact that she had cut herself numerous times sorting the good from the broken. As for hours, she was supposed to have the time of my visit off of work, but of course it hasn't worked that way. I never asked her working hours, but I do know she normally opens the store in the morning, and closes up in the evening. She normally was able to make it on Skype by between 7:00-7:30 pm local time consistently.
Lee, If you read the TR you would know that I was the one who suggested she take the keys that day. Did it on a spur of the moment, and she almost didn't take them because she was concerned about my not going out without them. I had to assure Olga that I had no need to go out, but I was more concerned with her getting back in after work. She agreed that it did make sense, and finally took the keys. From what I observed by her reaction was that I had earned some huge brownie points there as I was making sure she was not going to have problems, and that I was thinking ahead for her welfare. And of course we all know women will keep score! ;D
So anyway, as I am writing this it will be just about 4 hours until Olga is due to arrive. As was said before, we are off to a nearby art gallery, and I am to meet her sister today which is her only family. I had not asked her to meet her sister, but she decided it was time. I am not going to argue that fact-on the contrary, I feel honored that Olga thinks it has gone on to this level already. The only input I had was where to meet, because of budgetary constraints someplace like out for a fancy dinner were pretty much not an option. I don't know much about the sister other than Olga lives with her and her sister's husband. It was mentioned briefly early on that Olga's sister has 4 children, and I think one of them already has a child of their own. I will get the full story today, and hope to meet them all eventually if things continue to evolve. I know they live quite some distance from where I am staying, on the far Eastern edge of town. I was told that Olga's sister is quite shy, and very nervous about meeting new people-especially some strange new man from the West! I honestly cannot remember ever hearing of a FSUW being shy in anything, but I suppose it's natural that people will be individuals of all kinds.
I'll continue the updates after the meeting, and once I know how things turn out.
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Katya is the translator friend, yes?
Can you remind us of you guys respective ages Chris?
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Katya I think is young-never asked her age, but she's Olga's niece's best friend from what I was told. Olga herself is 35.
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Chris,
Best of luck to you and Olga. I would suggest keeping your romance more private. As I learned the hard way, you will have many detractors. In spite of your desire to share with the newbies, your lady might become pissed to find out that your love story was make public.
You have the skills to assess the scammers and pro daters. If you keep your heart in the right place and your wallet in your pocket you will be able to make a credible assessment as to her intentions.
The fact that she is older is not necessarily a bad thing. She is more mature than the 20+ year olds and may be more serious as to her intentions. She is very beautiful and may eventually make you a great wife. Shut off the internet and get to know each other.
Best of luck to both of you.
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Thanks for the wisdom Doug, I have made it a point to keep the private things private, but even the detractors make good points. I have a thick skin, and take what is said for what it's worth. She is definately NOT a pro dater or any kind of scammer. I am positive of it now, and am learning to trust her judgement. She has not asked for anything other than for me to not disappear on her, and she has been watching out for my expenses like a hawk. She stated quite bluntly today I am her chosen man, and she intends to make a life with me here in Lugansk. I realized quite suddenly today that she is like a frightened sparrow when it comes to relationships, as she has been hurt badly in the past. But she does have the guts to still persue her dreams, and take the risks-which is how I came to be here.
Due to the weather, we had to cancel the meeting with her sister and delayed it to tomorrow. I felt bad for both the ladies today because I was supposed to meet them at my building door at noon to let them in. I waited until a little after noon, and then came up to the apartment to shoot off a Skype message asking where they were. Apparently they arrived maybe a few moments after I went up, and ended up standing out in the rain for about 15 minutes with no umbrella. They were soaked! When Olga came into the apartment she was NOT happy, as I can imagine. She took off her boots and literally poured the water out! :snivel: Guess I should have waited longer! lol
She does know about the forum, though maybe not fully aware of the details. Luckily she does not read English! lol But I will try to curtail anything she might find too intimate or revealing just in case. The age factor has not been much of an issue with me other than I wanted someone still young enough to have children, with the desire to have them. Olga definately has this desire! We even talked about my ex today and gave her a somewhat detailed account of the nightmare I lived through. She was shocked, to say the least! I even told her more about the situation with my kids being in foster, ad how I do not have any parental rights due to my ex still being legally married to someone else. I had a LOT of explaining to do to try and get Olga to understand how fooked our system is. Once that was done, now she tells me that if we marry she wants us to try and bring my kids here too. One can only imagine the nightmare that will be! Right now, it's putting the cart in front of the horse. There are more immediate things to accomplish, though it does tell me her heart is in the right place. I was able to ask more questions about some of the things I was concerned about, and she did answer them very satisfactorily. Now this afternoon I will just have to make a list of the rest so I can remember them when we talk again. Dam, it's so hard to think when looking at such a hot kova!
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Chris, I am sure I and everyone here, truly wishes you success. I guess the fact most of us are concerned is good and bad, one we want you to not get burned and two we want you to have a great trip. All of us have been blinded by the beauty and on occasion see what we want. I truly hope she is telling the truth and all works out.
I agree Enjoy your trip, relax you can always, figure out all the details later. not like your getting married tomorrow :)
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Chris,
Excellent trip report, a very good read.
Chris I apologize immediately because what I write may offend you.
IMHO dump this woman and move on.
1) She was suppose to meet you at the airport - didn't happen
2) Friend should have taken care of the outrageous transport cost - didn't happen
3) Immediately takes you to the mall
4) Blows you off for New Year - has to work BS
5) Shows up at 4pm next day - slept it off but exhausted
6) No sign of affection after 4 days - no kiss, not sitting with you if friend is present
The most frustrating part of this was your response to her return on New Years day. You appear to be so relieved that you are not left alone in this foreign country that a smile and hug eliminate all that has been done.
Move on Chris. You seem like a really decent guy from your posts and trip report. Good luck in whatever you decide with this lady and your FSU pursuits.
:nod: agreed
Chris have you had sex with her yet? Have you gotten more than a kiss on her cheek, done any passionate kissing? When I see things like you have written I ask myself what would I had done if the roles were reversed.
Had Olga come to visit you and you were stuck at work due to some problem and couldn't get away, what would you have done to let her know the situation?
I know I would of contacted someone I know to go to the apartment and inform you, maybe even had you come to the shop so you wouldn't be alone on NYE. Have you been to her shop yet? NYE is a huge event in UA, she knows that, but she didn't take any measures to see to your needs. I have had enough Ukraine girls in the past tell me upon arrival that they see to my needs and have concern for my well being. The ones that never worried or asked were not into me, and all I got was face time and a peck on the cheek.
Has she done anything to make up for the wasted NYE fiasco? Often times when a 3rd person (friend, family member) is present it's done so the girl doesn't need to be alone with the guy, and together the girls can have a pleasant time together with you being the mule. January 8 is coming up, what will she be doing?
My advice is get a plan B started. Good luck with the girl and trip. :thumbsup:
-
She does know about the forum, though maybe not fully aware of the details. Luckily she does not read English! lol But I will try to curtail anything she might find too intimate or revealing just in case. The age factor has not been much of an issue with me other than I wanted someone still young enough to have children, with the desire to have them. Olga definately has this desire! We even talked about my ex today and gave her a somewhat detailed account of the nightmare I lived through. She was shocked, to say the least! I even told her more about the situation with my kids being in foster, ad how I do not have any parental rights due to my ex still being legally married to someone else. I had a LOT of explaining to do to try and get Olga to understand how fooked our system is. Once that was done, now she tells me that if we marry she wants us to try and bring my kids here too. One can only imagine the nightmare that will be! Right now, it's putting the cart in front of the horse. There are more immediate things to accomplish, though it does tell me her heart is in the right place. I was able to ask more questions about some of the things I was concerned about, and she did answer them very satisfactorily. Now this afternoon I will just have to make a list of the rest so I can remember them when we talk again. Dam, it's so hard to think when looking at such a hot kova!
I suspect Doug was referring to the details in a slightly different light.
Until now I have been of the opinion of go with the flow and see where you end up. But the above raises questions on both sides. You will have to trust your judgement and feelings.
It would be good to see the shop that she is manager of.
Also how the interaction is with her sister.
-
AvHdB:
Lee, If you read the TR you would know that I was the one who suggested she take the keys that day. Did it on a spur of the moment, and she almost didn't take them because she was concerned about my not going out without them. I had to assure Olga that I had no need to go out, but I was more concerned with her getting back in after work. She agreed that it did make sense, and finally took the keys. From what I observed by her reaction was that I had earned some huge brownie points there as I was making sure she was not going to have problems, and that I was thinking ahead for her welfare. And of course we all know women will keep score! ;D
Chris,
I did not mean to imply it was a premeditated situation. But she could have had her friend the terp bring you the keys. It would have been the decent thing to do. You were trapped in your apartment for what? 24+ hours? That is unacceptable. I am not trying to rain on your parade. But you are not being treated the way a man who flew thousands of miles to be with a woman. If it had been me, when she b*tched at you about being out in the rain, I would have mentioned her trapping you in your apartment. You have to stand up to this behavior or you will become a doormat that will have you begging to be back with a western woman.
You are a good guy and are being treated badly. With all repect to Doug, we are not trying to destroy your happiness. We are just seeing patterns that we have experienced. We want you to be happy and not involved in a trainwreck.
Take Care,
Lee
-
Thanks Lee, and I don't see anyone trying to "destroy my happiness" as it were. And I am thankful for all concerns. But just to set the record straight, she never bitched at me for being stuck in the rain. I just said she wasn't happy! Now THAT I can understand! I sure as hell wouldn't be happy either. Right now I am trying to follow my gut feelings. I don't want a trainwreck, nor do I want to lose a really good thing. So I just have to play it out and see where it goes. She has come around and been much more open, but that's as far as I am going to say. I will not get into intimate details. Ultimately, the decisions will be mine and mine alone, and I will have to live with them for good or bad. I will just have to take my time and make as educated decisions I can based on the available facts.
-
Even if this is the truth, she knew you were "trapped" in your apartment. By doing this she pretty much guaranteed you would not "run into her" that night if you ventured out on your own.
Lee
Boy Lee, you are such a sage.
BTW, got any snow last night out there?
Not much snow at all. Just cold and wind. This is the strangest weather year so far. Maybe 3 inches of snow at my house so far. How is the weather in the Capitol region?
Lee
Farging cold. Was 0F at my house this morning. Just got a dusting yesterday.
-
Right now I am trying to follow my gut feelings. I don't want a trainwreck, nor do I want to lose a really good thing. So I just have to play it out and see where it goes. She has come around and been much more open, but that's as far as I am going to say. I will not get into intimate details. Ultimately, the decisions will be mine and mine alone, and I will have to live with them for good or bad. I will just have to take my time and make as educated decisions I can based on the available facts.
+1
You are there with the brakes, steering wheel, and gas pedal. We are just along for the ride.
Common sense is usually the best navigation system.
-
I have been traveling and sat down and read your TR.
I have been in your shoes, things went to crap. It is really difficult to
admit this. It totally sucks, I have been exactly where you are now.
Chris I like you, we have chatted a hundred times. You gotta admit you
are a little hard headed (so am I by the way) . I am going to give you my
tough love advice and remember the love is there.
1. Get a cell phone NOW
2. Go to Fdating.com slap together a profile and write to each of these girls
for sample letter1
http://fdating.com/profile?id=377380;pid=1000666;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=294758;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=357485;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=441080;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=208818;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=216742;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=217415;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=251666;pid=665373;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=263120;pid=995171;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=319640;pid=806111;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=365288;
3. Go to freepersonals.ru and write each of these girls
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=421055;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=418897;pid=926888;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=376284;pid=933000;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=383827;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=393961;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=401939;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=412961;pid=889542;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=408234;pid=868656;
4. Look at Mamba too and any other place you can find.
Chris, give yourself a pep talk and go do it. There are a zillion pretty girls
in Lugansk. You found a bad apple go find a better one.
Udachi !!!
Bill
1. Sample letter
Privet, menya zavut Chris !!! I saw your profile and I had to write to you.
Ti takaya krasivaya !
I am in Lugansk for a short time and would like to meet you for a walk in
the park or for tea (maybe cake too). My friends say I am funny and interesting
(I love my friends) send me an sms to my local cell phone +11 555-1212
and you can find out if my friends are correct.
Potselui
Chris
-
Some great choices there Chris, Go for it:)
-
I have been traveling and sat down and read your TR.
I have been in your shoes, things went to crap. It is really difficult to
admit this. It totally sucks, I have been exactly where you are now.
Chris I like you, we have chatted a hundred times. You gotta admit you
are a little hard headed (so am I by the way) . I am going to give you my
tough love advice and remember the love is there.
1. Get a cell phone NOW
2. Go to Fdating.com slap together a profile and write to each of these girls
for sample letter1
http://fdating.com/profile?id=377380;pid=1000666;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=294758;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=357485;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=441080;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=208818;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=216742;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=217415;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=251666;pid=665373;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=263120;pid=995171;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=319640;pid=806111;
http://fdating.com/profile?id=365288;
3. Go to freepersonals.ru and write each of these girls
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=421055;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=418897;pid=926888;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=376284;pid=933000;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=383827;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=393961;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=401939;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=412961;pid=889542;
http://freepersonals.ru/profile?id=408234;pid=868656;
4. Look at Mamba too and any other place you can find.
Chris, give yourself a pep talk and go do it. There are a zillion pretty girls
in Lugansk. You found a bad apple go find a better one.
Udachi !!!
Bill
1. Sample letter
Privet, menya zavut Chris !!! I saw your profile and I had to write to you.
Ti takaya krasivaya !
I am in Lugansk for a short time and would like to meet you for a walk in
the park or for tea (maybe cake too). My friends say I am funny and interesting
(I love my friends) send me an sms to my local cell phone +11 555-1212
and you can find out if my friends are correct.
Potselui
Chris
TTB - Perhaps your most brilliant post ever... some of those ladies are magnificent - I am tempted to tell Chris if he does not - I will (Contact some of the ladies) sometimes competition motivates action ;)
-
I admit there are maybe 2 or 3 ladies of those listed I would have been interested in, but if you look at the last login datse, many of them have not been active in a long time-some in over 6 months. But thinks for the effort, and the concern. If I decide to make a change, I will just do a ChristianV and go "shopping" down the streets. I have seen very many hot kovas here, and I think it could be very easy to find a replacement.
But I don't think this horse is dead yet :dh: On the contrary! Things are looking up here more each day, and I want to give it my best shot. I have some things to work on today, and started others in motion last night. If she can turn up the heat a little, I can turn it up a lot! I really think Olga Will be worth the effort if it comes together. If not, I always have options.
-
But I don't think this horse is dead yet :dh: On the contrary!
Chris I knew you would stay on your current course, I wrote it for
the newbies. The horse is dead and getting riper by the minute.
I wish you luck and success !!!
Udachi !
Bill
PS some of those girls (the profiles I linked to) will look much better
in person than their photos and some will look worse, the only way
to find out is to write them and meet them.
Elenas Models profiles
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=206488
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=1721885
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=4736476
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=6464621
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=1849340
If you don't like this girl ask her if she might like me :)
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=1037216
-
Go for it Bill! lol
But on a side note, where else on earth are you going to find a lady with 3 kids who is still hot looking, 106 pounds, and healthy?
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=1849340 (As per Bills post)
-
Wow Chris,she is really a babe and YOU were taking video's of buildings (and some sky) when you should have had that lens pointed at her. If I understand correctly this is open season on you and her so I want to put my two kopeks in. I have nothing better to do lately.
I am with that small group who does not like things. The taxi seemed twice what it should be for anywhere else. She should have taken better care of that or maybe you should have.
I am not worried about the food bill. Sometimes the women want you to be comfortable and have the best because you are from the rich country so you end up with better quality meat at better quality stores. Then again, you did not say how many days worth of food you got. Hopefully it will last a week or more for two.
The two stories in one day is not good. Russians have great faces for stories. On the other hand, stuff does happen and especially over there.
I am just upset at how you have been taken care of. It almost sounds to me like this woman is not all that bright. It also does not sound like you are together all that much. Maybe you have had some long conversations but it doesn't sound like that to me.
For last I have saved a negative comment for you. Please tell me that was not a generic makeup kit you gave her and if it was, is she really using it?
Now being finished with negative crap I have suggestions.
Do not rely on faulty communication because it is private. This is a time for lots of communication and with no mistakes, no misunderstandings at all. The smallest of things to you could be big for her and a misunderstanding can come back to ruin things later. I would keep the trans. going full throttle myself.
Second, you mention business. I have had a small laundromat, a coffee kiosk and a manicure shop all of which cost $8000 to $10,000 each to get going and then between $1000 to $2000 a month to keep going. Even a tiny kiosk with display can easily run over $1500. The lease is maybe the worst thing as these people will get all they can out of you. It is good that she has experience but there is a real big difference working with the public, working with women. I hope she is a strong girl.
Finally, I would suggest talking more about money. What does she see as the expense of normal living for you two? Can you handle it? Does she have expectations of higher income from you? She does not seem to understand your finances and that doesn't seem too right to me. Explaining that things are more costly back home doesn't often do the job. You can wait til later to talk finances but it is important enough to get out of the way soon. I believe that the most important things to get straight are those things we both "assume" and leave for later.
She is a babe and I hope it works well for you. It looks to me like you are in learning mode with her and that is good. Try to triple it. It will be several months before you really get to know her. And do not let others give you flak on the sex subject. There really are some women who would prefer to do things the old fashioned way.
Scott
-
Please tell me that was not a generic makeup kit you gave her and if it was, is she really using it?
The one on the video? My wife said it looked like a CK one she had seen in TK Maxx, and if it were her, she would have preferred the stuff she was asked to choose rather than generic stuff she will likely not use.
I may be wrong, maybe the lady loved it.
-
If you don't like this girl ask her if she might like me
http://www.elenasmodels.com/index.php?ap=1037216
I exchanged a few emails with Tanya last year. If my memory is correct she's a former model who now runs a modeling agency. Definitely a gorgeous woman. And I imagine she would like Bill :)
The two stories in one day is not good. Russians have great faces for stories. On the other hand, stuff does happen and especially over there.
... It also does not sound like you are together all that much.
I'm afraid that's how it seems to me too.
-
funny we exchanged a few emails last year also
she has not been on Elena's in over a month.
-
funny we exchanged a few emails last year also
she has not been on Elena's in over a month.
I hesitate to insert a comment that is off-topic to Chris's TR, but this might be instructive to guys who are beginning their search. This Tanya is obviously extremely attractive and no doubt gets lots of emails from guys. After exchanging a few nice emails she didn't reply to one of my emails for an extended period. I then sent her a polite message. She replied that she was corresponding with several other guys and they were more understanding about her not being able to reply to them.
There were three possible explanations I could see: 1) I was not high on her priority list of guys, sort of a fallback option, 2) she was not serious in her search and, as she implied, she didn't respond with any promptness to anyone, or 3) she was genuinely so so busy that she just didn't have any time to respond to anyone.
By this point in my search I had learned that it was a waste of time to listen to their excuses and just move on to the next one. If they like you they will make the time to communicate with you. If you buy their excuses and keep communicating with them, you will soon hear the next excuse and the next and the next.
-
If they like you they will make the time to communicate with you. If you buy their excuses and keep communicating with them, you will soon hear the next excuse and the next and the next.
+ 1 :thumbsup:
-
If they like you they will make the time to communicate with you. If you buy their excuses and keep communicating with them, you will soon hear the next excuse and the next and the next.
+ 1 :thumbsup:
+2 on Larry's comment.
-
If they like you they will make the time to communicate with you. If you buy their excuses and keep communicating with them, you will soon hear the next excuse and the next and the next.
Very true and you will also notice this and you will realise how different it is to many others you may have communicated with in the past.
-
There were three possible explanations I could see: 1) I was not high on her priority list of guys, sort of a fallback option, 2) she was not serious in her search and, as she implied, she didn't respond with any promptness to anyone, or 3) she was genuinely so so busy that she just didn't have any time to respond to anyone.
I would also add that when somebody is really interested in someone, they MAKE the time so 3 would actually be predicated by 1. Nobody is busy 24/7 and can't spare a few moments...
-
I Agree, only takes a few minutes to drop a quick note. Shows your level of importance to them!
-
DUH!
So, the woman has a new secretary working for her.
You think that these women are not busy with missives from the lovelorn?
If she looks hot(ish) on a profile she will be inundated and you can be sure that each of you as individuals is not as hot as the best options she has right now. Expecting even a response is expecting too much.
If a hot woman is on a site for a long time you can rest assured that either she does not exist (as a real person) or she is NOT looking for a husband.
If she goes away and comes back it is because she has worked her way through the last tranche of vacations, gifts, money opportunities and is now looking for the next parcel of setups.
-
She replied that she was corresponding with several other guys and they were more understanding about her not being able to reply to them.
Roughly translated she had already met enough potential suckers who were more receptive to her excuses! The water with these guys had already been tested and the chances were they would believe pretty much anything she told them!
If a women is serious in this search she will at the very least make an effort to respond to emails and pick up the phone to speak to a potential suitor, if a women is not making the effort at this stage what hope can there possibly be?
P.S I would agree with (2) this women is not serious in her search!
-
So, you have been having an adventure!
1) You got robbed
2) You got stiffed
3) You were held captive
4) You have been lied to
And I am guessing that you have had no reason to test out how your little darling gets on with condoms.
There is a simple rule to life:
The simplest explanation for anything is the most likely to be true.
This woman has been making complex explanations of stuff and you have been making complex rationalisations. Thus we can safely infer that something is awry.
Also, you refer to $400 as breaking your budget. if that is the case then you do not have the wherewithal to manage the path you have set yourself upon. Not least because this woman is setting expectations out for herself. She thinks that $400 is the right price to stiff you for what should have cost, even here in rich Estonia, no more than $200 and if a private driver and car even less. Your adventures with her will test your limits and you will be found lacking. However the real point is that you are in the wrong place with the wrong people.
There is NO WAY that this woman should/could have left you as you were. She knows there is a buzzer downstairs to enable you to let her in. She knows she could have come to you after her problems, but she did not. She knows she could have sent a friend to let you know what was going on, but she did not.
The takeaway is that even if she was telling a real story and was not actually out with her boyfriend on New Years Eve then she is inconsiderate of you to a huge degree.
And, whilst it is OK to play the 'gentleman' I think we all know that you have gotten no nearer to this woman's panties than sniffing them and this makes the picture complete.
Chris (and others) just because a woman is not fat does not make her beautiful or even attractive, she is just skinny. Beauty and attractiveness is made from inside a person. As long as you chase skinny women thinking this makes them beautiful and excuses their mendacity, selfishness and egocentricity then you will continue to be locked in, lied to and stolen from.
This woman will do what she can to get from you that which she knows you will give away for nothing. When you go home she will tell all her friends about her Novy Amerikanitz and laughing she will show off her bounty and then finish with the key words 'and I did not even have to fcuk him'!* She will receive approving smiles and claps and another girl will share her story about her latest 'pension'.
* This woman and her friends know the going rate for the generosity of a man and she will happily pay it, she knows the rules.
When she can get away without 'payment' she has scored a bonus, one that is worth sharing with friends. After all, when she shows off her new dress she will never say 'and all I had to do was give him a blow job' as that's par for the course. But if she got away with just a peck on the cheek then that is worth sharing, but no payment at all is a testament both to her skills in handling you and your foolishness - and as we all know tales of a man's foolishness are always funnier than those of skill and cunning when the teller is obviously no fool! ;)
-
So, you have been having an adventure!
1) You got robbed
2) You got stiffed
3) You were held captive
4) You have been lied to
And I am guessing that you have had no reason to test out how your little darling gets on with condoms.
There is a simple rule to life:
The simplest explanation for anything is the most likely to be true.
This woman has been making complex explanations of stuff and you have been making complex rationalisations. Thus we can safely infer that something is awry.
Also, you refer to $400 as breaking your budget. if that is the case then you do not have the wherewithal to manage the path you have set yourself upon. Not least because this woman is setting expectations out for herself. She thinks that $400 is the right price to stiff you for what should have cost, even here in rich Estonia, no more than $200 and if a private driver and car even less. Your adventures with her will test your limits and you will be found lacking. However the real point is that you are in the wrong place with the wrong people.
There is NO WAY that this woman should/could have left you as you were. She knows there is a buzzer downstairs to enable you to let her in. She knows she could have come to you after her problems, but she did not. She knows she could have sent a friend to let you know what was going on, but she did not.
The takeaway is that even if she was telling a real story and was not actually out with her boyfriend on New Years Eve then she is inconsiderate of you to a huge degree.
And, whilst it is OK to play the 'gentleman' I think we all know that you have gotten no nearer to this woman's panties than sniffing them and this makes the picture complete.
Chris (and others) just because a woman is not fat does not make her beautiful or even attractive, she is just skinny. Beauty and attractiveness is made from inside a person. As long as you chase skinny women thinking this makes them beautiful and excuses their mendacity, selfishness and egocentricity then you will continue to be locked in, lied to and stolen from.
This woman will do what she can to get from you that which she knows you will give away for nothing. When you go home she will tell all her friends about her Novy Amerikanitz and laughing she will show off her bounty and then finish with the key words 'and I did not even have to fcuk him'!* She will receive approving smiles and claps and another girl will share her story about her latest 'pension'.
* This woman and her friends know the going rate for the generosity of a man and she will happily pay it, she knows the rules.
When she can get away without 'payment' she has scored a bonus, one that is worth sharing with friends. After all, when she shows off her new dress she will never say 'and all I had to do was give him a blow job' as that's par for the course. But if she got away with just a peck on the cheek then that is worth sharing, but no payment at all is a testament both to her skills in handling you and your foolishness - and as we all know tales of a man's foolishness are always funnier than those of skill and cunning when the teller is obviously no fool! ;)
Andrew, why don't you say what you really think ( classy)
-
NSone, if you are hinting that 'telling it like it is' is somehow less productive than poking a feather up a blokes ass then we will have to agree to differ.
This woman is accustomed to blokes who are able to tell her what they want and she in turn is accustomed to responding positively to such requests.
Right now he is being taken for a mug, just as LOTS and LOTS of you guys are because for some reason North American men engaged in the pursuit of foreign women have turned into a bunch of pantywaisted nancyboys who are unable to take on a positive male gender role.
This woman tested Chris. Chris showed himself lacking on several levels the woman is now engaged in charging the 'stoopid tax'. If she likes or fancies him the best thing to do now, if it ain't too late, is for him to sit her down, read her the riot act and tell her what he expects of her going forward.
If it is not too late she will very quickly acquiesce and he will feel the air change around him.
-
So, you have been having an adventure!
1) You got robbed
2) You got stiffed
3) You were held captive
4) You have been lied to
And I am guessing that you have had no reason to test out how your little darling gets on with condoms.
There is a simple rule to life:
The simplest explanation for anything is the most likely to be true.
This woman has been making complex explanations of stuff and you have been making complex rationalisations. Thus we can safely infer that something is awry.
Also, you refer to $400 as breaking your budget. if that is the case then you do not have the wherewithal to manage the path you have set yourself upon. Not least because this woman is setting expectations out for herself. She thinks that $400 is the right price to stiff you for what should have cost, even here in rich Estonia, no more than $200 and if a private driver and car even less. Your adventures with her will test your limits and you will be found lacking. However the real point is that you are in the wrong place with the wrong people.
There is NO WAY that this woman should/could have left you as you were. She knows there is a buzzer downstairs to enable you to let her in. She knows she could have come to you after her problems, but she did not. She knows she could have sent a friend to let you know what was going on, but she did not.
The takeaway is that even if she was telling a real story and was not actually out with her boyfriend on New Years Eve then she is inconsiderate of you to a huge degree.
And, whilst it is OK to play the 'gentleman' I think we all know that you have gotten no nearer to this woman's panties than sniffing them and this makes the picture complete.
Chris (and others) just because a woman is not fat does not make her beautiful or even attractive, she is just skinny. Beauty and attractiveness is made from inside a person. As long as you chase skinny women thinking this makes them beautiful and excuses their mendacity, selfishness and egocentricity then you will continue to be locked in, lied to and stolen from.
This woman will do what she can to get from you that which she knows you will give away for nothing. When you go home she will tell all her friends about her Novy Amerikanitz and laughing she will show off her bounty and then finish with the key words 'and I did not even have to fcuk him'!* She will receive approving smiles and claps and another girl will share her story about her latest 'pension'.
* This woman and her friends know the going rate for the generosity of a man and she will happily pay it, she knows the rules.
When she can get away without 'payment' she has scored a bonus, one that is worth sharing with friends. After all, when she shows off her new dress she will never say 'and all I had to do was give him a blow job' as that's par for the course. But if she got away with just a peck on the cheek then that is worth sharing, but no payment at all is a testament both to her skills in handling you and your foolishness - and as we all know tales of a man's foolishness are always funnier than those of skill and cunning when the teller is obviously no fool! ;)
Andrew, why don't you say what you really think ( classy)
No, not in the least bit "classy" but I tend to agree with the majority of it.
FWIW, and to put the 400 bucks into perspective, I got a meet and greet driver in Moscow to drive me the couple of hours between SVO and DME for $64 just a few years ago. As Andrew points out, even best case and the fairy tales are true, it still leaves her being the most incredibly inconsiderate person possible and not someone that I would want as a wife.
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NSone, if you are hinting that 'telling it like it is' is somehow less productive than poking a feather up a blokes ass then we will have to agree to differ.
This woman is accustomed to blokes who are able to tell her what they want and she in turn is accustomed to responding positively to such requests.
Right now he is being taken for a mug, just as LOTS and LOTS of you guys are because for some reason North American men engaged in the pursuit of foreign women have turned into a bunch of pantywaisted nancyboys who are unable to take on a positive male gender role.
This woman tested Chris. Chris showed himself lacking on several levels the woman is now engaged in charging the 'stoopid tax'. If she likes or fancies him the best thing to do now, if it ain't too late, is for him to sit her down, read her the riot act and tell her what he expects of her going forward.
If it is not too late she will very quickly acquiesce and he will feel the air change around him.
Andrew, you as many others, assume you know who is who and what,with knowing very little ( I think its called arrogant) 98% of what you said has already been said, with much more class and respect to a fellow member here.
I thought this site was not just about education, but support and respect. As I have learned that is not always the case. So, I post accordingly. I would not even pretend to know all you do about this or to be at your level in the search for and FSU lady.
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NSone, I KNOW that you know much less than I do in this subject area. Thus given your agreed relative lack of expertise it behoves you to not be so arrogant as to suggest that I do not know what I am talking about.
Chris has shared plenty of info with us that informs every word that I, and some others, have written.
So, knowing stuff is NOT arrogance, it is simply knowing stuff.
By the way, I think that perhaps the word you were struggling to find was 'assumption'.
Assumption is kinda like magic to those who are not magicians. It is a skill - analysis with incomplete data. Those who can not do it are left wondering 'how did he get to there from there' while those who can do can not understand how others can't see the connections.
I'd hope to be wrong about this stuff because he seems like a decent bloke but he has shared not one thing that suggests this woman has either affection or respect for him.
He could have dealt with this and likely altered the outcome but it would have required acting against type by discounting the woman's slenderness as a point of attraction and taking control of his environment which includes his relationships with the woman and her accomplice(s).
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Andrew, I think I got it right on! Arrogant is when someone Like you assumes he knows me or anything about me.
As for Chris, I don't think me or anyone said you were wrong, just a jerk in how you presented it!
I was not looking for any word trust me :) I used the ones I wanted to. As for you knowing more it was part true
Part sarcastic ( guess you missed that part) Anyone can read a lot and assume he knows something.
Some can even move there and assume, so it seems. Some can be quite articulate and make a few believe this
way, changes very little. Anyone that had to write what you did, only proves how little he truly knows and how
small a man he is!
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Hi Chris,
How's the trip going and how's the relationship evolved over the last few days?
It's been an interesting read and personally I don't think you have a great deal to worry about. At worst, you've lost a few quid and paid over the odds to spend time with a spoiled princess. At best I think you've met a Ukrainian girl who seems to be a little mixed up and doesn't know much about the real world. The guys here telling you to ditch her are saying so because there's no emotional involvement from our side, and it appears this one is harder work than it should be. Some of us guys have been where you are now, and know there's tonnes of FSU women who don't act like this and it would make you're search much easier to look elsewhere. Personally only one thing really alarmed me and that was the New Year fiasco. I'd have been raging with her regardless of tiny tears. She may have been in the mire but there was something she could have done, believe me!!
Having said that, maybe your just off on the wrong foot. If you really like this one, who are we to decide your fate. It's your life, your love and your dollar.
I'm involved with a girl at the moment who seems perfect and very keen to please, almost the opposite of the Ukrainian girl I had a relationship with last year. She was very hard work on me and my wallet. I think I loved her and there was a real connection. When things were good they were perfect but then inevitably problems arose with this girl and cracks started to appear. I would say she was a great match and a real looker but now I realise that if I'd married her, there was a high chance Miss Highmaintenance would have pushed me to the edge?!
I suppose what I'm saying is that I can see parallels in our stories, and if your future was to be mapped out like mine, move on now. It's gonna hurt short term but its for the best. Maybe your next post will give us some new information which will render my advise useless, but up until now, I think you've got a handful. She can't control supermarket prices and maybe she could have got a better price on the taxi, but there's something about your TR which makes me think your in for a hard time. Everyone is different and with my Ukrainian girl, she never got intimate for quite some time, and I began to wonder. However, my girlfriend now, well we hit it off right from the word go and everything seems to have slipped into place. No red flags, no frustration, no trust issues and no silly excuses why she's let me down. This was the opposite of my experience with Miss Ukraine.
Finally, to hopefully ease some of your money concerns, I may add that on my 4 decent trips to Ukraine (mostly in South), I found it to be quite an expensive country at times. Of course you can get things dirt cheap, but when I was there we always did the better things and it cost. With regard to your taxi, I can't remember exactly but it cost me not far off $400 from Dnepropetrovsk to Berdyansk, about 5+ hours, with a driver I knew. Of course I could have jumped on one of those rank mini-bus things and done it for a fraction of the cost but personally.....I'll take the cab.
So don't expect everything to be cheap, anything better than standard is probably more expensive in Ukraine than UK, probably due to availability and import costs but right now cash should be the last thing on your mind. Concentrate on the girl and decide if you want to peruse. As long as you can afford such a trip, you can be surprised where you can find love. However, many of the comments you get from the guys here are because we've learned to make the most of your time in country, and right now many seasoned pro's would maybe be hitting the next button.......
Good luck!!
Ross
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Although i'd have been a bit more subtle in my choice of words,i agree with the vast majority of what Andrew has said in this thread from post 83 onwards.
Chris comes across as a nice guy,and looking at his experiences in Ukraine so far,these Ukrainian harpies can see him coming from a mile away,and they're using him.
Ukrainian men wouldn't behave toward these women as soft foreign men do,and guess who's getting these girls panties off on a regular basis ?
Foreign men in general need to be more assertive with these women,but it's a modern cultural problem,where western men allow themselves to be whipped by women nowadays,and these Ukrainian girls know this,so these foreign men are easy marks.
As for "pantywaisted nancyboys" around women,they are not endemic to North American men,as the majority of men in the UK are just as spineless around women nowadays.They even call their women partners "The boss" for Gods sake !!!
Even our tv advertising is very much geared toward the uber-cool women being in charge of their soft men.
FWIW Chris,i've been where you are now,and i hope things turn out very well for you out there :)
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Official Notice the trip report has just been derailed.
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The one on the video? My wife said it looked like a CK one she had seen in TK Maxx
It would be very interesting if Mrs Manny or another fluent speaker were to listen in
on the RW discussions during the walk video. If they were talking about Chris while
thinking he was unaware it might prove to be interesting. (or boring)
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The one on the video? My wife said it looked like a CK one she had seen in TK Maxx
It would be very interesting if Mrs Manny or another fluent speaker were to listen in
on the RW discussions during the walk video. If they were talking about Chris while
thinking he was unaware it might prove to be interesting. (or boring)
From the snippet my wife heard it's definitely in the boring category.
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The guys here telling you to ditch her are saying so because there's no emotional involvement from our side, and it appears this one is harder work than it should be. Some of us guys have been where you are now
I have been exactly where he is now (more than once unfortunately),
including the situation with a girl who wanted to ditch me on New Years
eve and catch up later a few days after.
It's hard really hard to realize it's all fooked up when all the emotions
are involved and this is compounded by the hotness scale of the girl.
Some of the guys tried an intervention in chat. Chris isn't going to listen
so I suggest we sit back and let him write the rest of his TR otherwise
it will probably stop being told right here.
There is plenty of stuff for the newbies to learn here.
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I hope he proves us all wrong and pulls it out the bag, perhaps we all do?!
Maybe with perseverance you'll end up together with this girl but as I've said before - When you meet a woman who really shows that she likes you in equal measures, you'll wonder why you wasted all that time with the last one!
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NSone, if you are hinting that 'telling it like it is' is somehow less productive than poking a feather up a blokes ass then we will have to agree to differ.
This woman is accustomed to blokes who are able to tell her what they want and she in turn is accustomed to responding positively to such requests.
Right now he is being taken for a mug, just as LOTS and LOTS of you guys are because for some reason North American men engaged in the pursuit of foreign women have turned into a bunch of pantywaisted nancyboys who are unable to take on a positive male gender role.
This woman tested Chris. Chris showed himself lacking on several levels the woman is now engaged in charging the 'stoopid tax'. If she likes or fancies him the best thing to do now, if it ain't too late, is for him to sit her down, read her the riot act and tell her what he expects of her going forward.
If it is not too late she will very quickly acquiesce and he will feel the air change around him.
Andrew, you as many others, assume you know who is who and what,with knowing very little ( I think its called arrogant) 98% of what you said has already been said, with much more class and respect to a fellow member here.
I thought this site was not just about education, but support and respect. As I have learned that is not always the case. So, I post accordingly. I would not even pretend to know all you do about this or to be at your level in the search for and FSU lady.
NS1, you know I don't fancy Mr Fi much but, I think he is right. Arrogant SOB? Meh, but he is right. Maybe you can't see it but there are others who (borrowing Brad's famous line) have been there, done that and can see it very clearly.
Pantywaisted nancyboys? :ROFL: LMFAO, that's a good one Mr. Fi.
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I hope he proves us all wrong and pulls it out the bag, perhaps we all do?!
Maybe with perseverance you'll end up together with this girl but as I've said before - When you meet a woman who really shows that she likes you in equal measures, you'll wonder why you wasted all that time with the last one!
Boy Rosco, this is one of those cases I wish he would turn to ME and say, "Ha, I told you so."
Good luck Chris.
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NSone, if you are hinting that 'telling it like it is' is somehow less productive than poking a feather up a blokes ass then we will have to agree to differ.
This woman is accustomed to blokes who are able to tell her what they want and she in turn is accustomed to responding positively to such requests.
Right now he is being taken for a mug, just as LOTS and LOTS of you guys are because for some reason North American men engaged in the pursuit of foreign women have turned into a bunch of pantywaisted nancyboys who are unable to take on a positive male gender role.
This woman tested Chris. Chris showed himself lacking on several levels the woman is now engaged in charging the 'stoopid tax'. If she likes or fancies him the best thing to do now, if it ain't too late, is for him to sit her down, read her the riot act and tell her what he expects of her going forward.
If it is not too late she will very quickly acquiesce and he will feel the air change around him.
Andrew, you as many others, assume you know who is who and what,with knowing very little ( I think its called arrogant) 98% of what you said has already been said, with much more class and respect to a fellow member here.
I thought this site was not just about education, but support and respect. As I have learned that is not always the case. So, I post accordingly. I would not even pretend to know all you do about this or to be at your level in the search for and FSU lady.
NS1, you know I don't fancy Mr Fi much but, I think he is right. Arrogant SOB? Meh, but he is right. Maybe you can't see it but there are others who (borrowing Brad's famous line) have been there, done that and can see it very clearly.
Pantywaisted nancyboys? :ROFL: LMFAO, that's a good one Mr. Fi.
Muzh if you notice, I did not disagree, I have actually been there done that also.
More about the way it was done, really not needed in this case.
the Arrogant part came form other parts of post.
Sorry Bill, I agree 100%
Rosco, I hope your right :)
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It would be very interesting if Mrs Manny or another fluent speaker were to listen in
on the RW discussions during the walk video. If they were talking about Chris while
thinking he was unaware it might prove to be interesting. (or boring)
no any criminal ;D complains about high prices everywhere
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It would be very interesting if Mrs Manny or another fluent speaker were to listen in
on the RW discussions during the walk video. If they were talking about Chris while
thinking he was unaware it might prove to be interesting. (or boring)
no any criminal ;D complains about high prices everywhere
She did two days ago when he posted it. :)
It was all about high prices, inflation, food prices and mundane stuff. Nothing of interest to speak of.
Don't imagine I would miss such an opportunity - on a controversial topic - with a Russian speaker in the house Bill. ;D
On another note, our hero has vanished. Maybe he is locked in a room again with no internet.........
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All I can say here is yes, I do hope to pull it out of the bag. No, the odds aren't good and the signs from the lady are, well...odd at best. But now I'm keeping my eyes open for other opportunities that may come along while here. Figure if she can't or won't spend all possible time with me, I'll find something else to occupy my time. I now have several new lines out while I'm here, so we'll see what comes of it.
As for current news, had a good afternoon out touring the area and visiting a local museum with the lady. I am to be up early tomorrow because I am to finally meet her sister. We have a table reserved and the plans are solid this time-no worry about the weather. Also it's planned to go out clubbing, and get to meet Olga's oldest niece-the only other adult relative. I hope things get better once the meeting takes place, and maybe the sister will talk a little sense into Olga if it's needed. I'll post some pics when I can, and at least keep some update going even though I don't think I will go into as much detail as I have been.
Manny, I haven't disappeared-been in chat, out and about, and looking for "plan C" and so forth. It's great to hear the translation wasn't about "how can we get more cash from the sucker", but also a bit disappointing they weren't saying nice things about me! :snivel:
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Manny, I haven't disappeared-been in chat, out and about, and looking for "plan C" and so forth. It's great to hear the translation wasn't about "how can we get more cash from the sucker", but also a bit disappointing they weren't saying nice things about me! :snivel:
Record some chat when she doesn't know and you will get the low-down. Likely they were aware of being recorded.
I missed you in chat - I haven't been in there the last week or so. Good to see you are still online. We gave the topic top billing on the site as it was so informative. :thumbsup:
Update us when you can. The good folks here LOVE on-the-ground TR's. This topic has 850 unique hits up to now!!! :nod:
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Also it's planned to go out clubbing, and get to meet Olga's oldest niece-the only other adult relative.
Clubbing is where a girl often reveals herself, pardon the pun.
Were it me, she and I would be sitting down having a face to face about how in my view this hadn't worked out that well so far. Clubbing is the LAST place she and I would be doing under the circumstances. Loud music, a crowd, and not much verbal communication likely to take place. On the other hand I'm guessing that you will need to have visited an ATM prior cause it looks like she feels that you're ready to party.
Keep your eyes wide open and your wallet closed tight is my advice. I'd make a move physically on her at the club, some type of very obvious PDA normally shared by a couple. Not necessarily disrespectful, but something a dating couple would find comfortable while being demonstrative. Both my eyes would be open to see how her friends (and they are why you're going to the club) react; and to see if any one of the males at the club get nervous or protective.
Chris, I'm also having a real hard time believing that a sister and a niece are the only local relatives. That is just way too convenient for all that has happened.
A final thing that has bothered me: it is typical for the government to announce the amount of state sanctioned holiday sometime before New Year's Eve. For many workers this often lasts until past the "old new year" on January 13/14. Some businesses and industries are exempt, but most operate on a reduced schedule if they must remain open. Unless she is in an essential field like an emergency service, how much extra time has she gotten off in the last couple of weeks? (None would not be an acceptable answer were it me.)
Hoping we're all wrong, and wishing you best of luck.
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Wow Manny, Never in my wildest dreams had I thought I would ever become a celebrity here and be front page news! Had never thought it was really so interesting.
Be that as it may, the last couple posts seem on the mark. The "bank" is about as liquid as any other American bank in the recent past-only those with the best "credit" is going to gain access. As of this point, Olga has not earned any credit. As for the video recording, I am positive the girls did not know about it. I muted the "record" sound on my cell cam, and started it when they were not looking-it was very low key.
If this is a prodating scheme, it's the most bizarre way of doing it. But there are some definate red flags as have been pointed out, and some that I have not mentioned. It's a combination of really mixed signals that is driving me crazy here, such as the warm/cold actions of her part. She's been good about the money, and hasn't been asking for any. Not a pro dater trait either. The museum trip was my idea, and it was on the cheap. It was something I asked about while out walking, and a spur of the moment thing. But on the flip side, one day she takes my hand while walking, and the next she won't allow it. Mostly she's been content to come to the apartment where we will have coffee and snacks, and we will just talk.
The museum trip was just as odd. It was a day she again wouldn't take my hand in public, telling me there would be plenty of time for "that stuff" back at the apartment. Once in the museum for their only display being wax figures of Russian historical figures, she acted more normal. We had fun posing with the figures and snapping quite a few photos. She was genuinly having a good time with me, and it showed with her actions this time. She even took one close-up photo of me, and after showing me she very sweetly says "My Kreees" and gives it a smooch. This was also not typical pro dater activity, and I was convinced it was a genuine thing on her part.
After the museum, of course once again she said time was short and she need to check back in at work. But first she needed to get a few things for dinner, so we stopped at the local grocery so she could get a few things she needed to make the traditional holiday porriage. Apparently it's a mix of some grain, with nuts and dried fruit. She said I'll have a chance to try it on Saturday, probably after the meeting with her sister. I am hoping I get to finally see where she lives, but the way things are going I'm not counting on it. While shopping, she was just a typical woman, picking out the stuff she needed while I followed her around with the basket. It definately was a very public display of being together, and she was smiling the whole time. After shopping things got strange again. Being the gentleman, I carried her grocery bag for her as she and the terp headed to the bus stop. She told me I didn't have to do that, but I insisted. We got most of the way there until we were back by the museum, and the bus stop just around the corner. She stopped me and said I should go get some rest. She took the groceries and I was efficiently dismissd with a hug. WTF? It was almost as if she didn't want me to go past a certain point on the street with her, or to go around the corner. Definate alarm bells here!
Really to sum it up, I can't for the life of me figure out what the deal is. She says all the right things, yet does not back them up by her actions. She tells me she wants me to be her husband, yet doesn't show the strong attachment or any romantic feelings, or even the desire to spend much time together. She doesn't show the signs of being a pro dater, because what's she getting out of this? Nothing I can see, especially the past week. She comes over, makes me food, and tells me of her hopes for the future. We had some deep discussions about our past including relationships that went terribly bad. Some she had told me very early on in our communication, and they have been repeated without any variation. Either it's completely true, or she's really polished her story. But the emotions she shows in the telling seem to be genuine, and I can see the pain she's gone through. Again, if it's not real, then she deserves an Emmy. One thing that really threw me for a loop and keeps me guessing is the fact that she wanted to talk about how I could possibly get my kids back, and bring them here to Ukraine someday. She seemed really determined to make it happen, and grilled me thouroughly about the system in the US, and how they could have ended up in the situation they are currently in. Another bizarre twist, to be sure.
Anyhow, I am leaving in about 90 minutes of this writing to go meet the sister, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes. To say the least, it's going to be one interesting day!
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Sounds to me as if she's pretending to make the right noises but has little real interest. The lack of PDA and getting rid of you near the bus stop are additional signs (if you needed any more) that this is not going to happen.
Perhaps she's not a real prodater. Perhaps she's dabbling in international relationships and took you up on the offer of a visit thinking you'd probably never turn up. Perhaps she hoped you'd sweep her off her feet if you did arrive and the chemistry fell flat or well short of ideal (for her) and now she's play acting the part of "interested" until you leave. Perhaps... there are 1000's of variations on this but 2 thing's are absolutely certain in my mind; 1) she is not at all attracted to you, 2) she is incredibly inconsiderate. She also probably has a local boyfriend or lover and she doesn't want most of her family and friends finding out about you. If this goes further it will only be because she wants to leave Ukraine and is using you as a convenient mule.
Seriously, if you have other options, use them, at the very least forget any ideas you had about a relationship with this woman.
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Ade-You're right that the signs are plentiful enough to justify calling the whole deal a fiasco. I don't know either what she "dabbling in". She tells me she has been looking internationally for 2 years, and had met 2 other guys in the past. I know the story there. But I do know she's not looking to relocate and doesn't need a "mule"-that was mentioned a couple times im my TR. On the contrary-she says she wants to make a life here, and has asked me to start taking Russian classes soon as possible. That's another one of those "why bother with that" deals if she were prodating. It just all does not add up!
Andrewfi did make a great point that I hate to admit, but I agree with in most cases-that the simplist explaination is usually the right one. I live by this rule, and it's rarely let me down. But in this case, I can honestly say there is no "simple" explaination. This is because there are just too dam many contradictions to make a good judgement and not have a ton of questions unanswered, and doubts left over. I'm just going to have to try and push for the truth, and ride out the last couple days to see what happens. I will tell her that I am not ever going to consider coming back unless she shows me she is for real. maybe it will be enough to either push her over the edge into my arms, or over the other way and finish it for good. Something is going to give before I leave here.
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We all get our 15 minutes at some point.
I don't like to be negative really but sometimes the hand holding thing stops when you enter certain territories that a boyfriend or ex boyfriend either lives or travels through often. At that point everything is like professional. It can be meant to keep you safe from the jealous type or it can be that the woman is lying to two men. But then you are there and I am here and what do I know. You two need to talk and pay attention to what she does not have answers for, like what is with the hand holding thing.
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We all get our 15 minutes at some point.
yep, everyone hates to see a trainwreck, but nobody can stop watching! Kind of reminds me of watching a soap opera-now if I can only figure out who shot JR??
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Ade-You're right that the signs are plentiful enough to justify calling the whole deal a fiasco. I don't know either what she "dabbling in". She tells me she has been looking internationally for 2 years, and had met 2 other guys in the past. I know the story there. But I do know she's not looking to relocate and doesn't need a "mule"-that was mentioned a couple times im my TR. On the contrary-she says she wants to make a life here, and has asked me to start taking Russian classes soon as possible. That's another one of those "why bother with that" deals if she were prodating. It just all does not add up!
Andrewfi did make a great point that I hate to admit, but I agree with in most cases-that the simplist explaination is usually the right one. I live by this rule, and it's rarely let me down. But in this case, I can honestly say there is no "simple" explaination. This is because there are just too dam many contradictions to make a good judgement and not have a ton of questions unanswered, and doubts left over. I'm just going to have to try and push for the truth, and ride out the last couple days to see what happens. I will tell her that I am not ever going to consider coming back unless she shows me she is for real. maybe it will be enough to either push her over the edge into my arms, or over the other way and finish it for good. Something is going to give before I leave here.
I'm sorry Chris, but the "learn Russian, move here" thing are just words with no real meaning, or I should say, not the meaning you think. On the other hand, her actions are plain and obvious I'm afraid, the rest is just play acting fluff. You are trying to rationalize her words and shoehorn them into some sort of story that fits a "and they lived happily ever after" idea. Here's a little logic for you; if she has absolutely no interest in moving abroad why would she register herself on a MOB site? Here's one guess about the learning Russian, move here request; she doesn't want the grief and possible blowback from turning you down herself so she hopes the thought of moving to the FSU will get you to drop her.
Good luck at the club. Wanna bet all the drinks are on you?
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We all get our 15 minutes at some point.
yep, everyone hates to see a trainwreck, but nobody can stop watching! Kind of reminds me of watching a soap opera-now if I can only figure out who shot JR??
It's only a train wreck if you allow it to be, otherwise it's a learning experience.
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Hi ChrisE,
Merry Christmas in Lugansk/Lugansk!
There is another issue that you mentioned earlier that may to different degrees explain some of Olga's behavior. Note I said explain not excuse.
You have told us that her parents died when she was young. A woman who does not have a father lacks a substantial part of her maturing into a woman. Further she has had bad experiences with men both local and from the West. If she gets abused as she tries to have a relationship even if only emotionally she will not have necessarily have a template on how to accept and reflect affection and develop a future relationship.
I could be wrong but consider this. More important do you want to try to build a future with some one like this?
AvHdB
NB: I might Ade summed up your situation succinctly.
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Hi ChrisE,
Merry Christmas in Lugansk/Lugansk!
There is another issue that you mentioned earlier that may to different degrees explain some of Olga's behavior. Note I said explain not excuse.
You have told us that her parents died when she was young. A woman who does not have a father lacks a substantial part of her maturing into a woman. Further she has had bad experiences with men both local and from the West. If she gets abused as she tries to have a relationship even if only emotionally she will not have necessarily have a template on how to accept and reflect affection and develop a future relationship.
I could be wrong but consider this. More important do you want to try to build a future with some one like this?
AvHdB
NB: I might Ade summed up your situation succinctly.
+10!!
I just had the meeting with Inna (Olga's sister) and you just hit the nail on the head! This was the most enlightening experience to date of her behavior, and of her values. Inna acted as surrogate mother from when even she was young, and had nothing to base on in raising herself and her sister other than the oldest of values and traditions.
Olga had only the one serious relationship in the past-it was the only guy she ever had serious relations with, and it still was done the old fasioned way as her sister raised her to be. Fortunately I have a bit of experience with this as I have dated women raised in such a way in the past, from very guarded families with deep traditional old world ways. Things are not done the way we now think of as normal today, but would more likely have been the standard of a half century ago or more. This is the world my grandfather was raised, and the things he tried to instill in the family. As the oldest grandchild, I was taught these ways when I was very young in the hope I would carry these traditions on to my children. I had a feeling that something seemed very familiar, and it wasn't until today that I had the epiphany. It was a true "DUH" moment on my part!
So let me cover some of the high points of our meal and meeting. I think some of this will be very educational in any event. First rule of meeting family is that there needs to be a gift of some sort to the head of the family, or to both parents as the case may be. In my case Inna being the surrogate parent, she was the one to get some not so expensive but much needed cosmetics. She was so thrilled and impressed, I got a kiss for it and the biggest smile! It was worth every grivna (Thanks for the advice Sparky!) During the meal, the man is supposed to be the man in charge, and his first duty is to pour the drinks. (per the terp's nudgung-Inna had cognac, the rest of us split a bottle of wine) I didn't know this part, but as it came off seamlessly it was very well recieved.
Apparently the meal must have been pre-ordered and arranged by Olga, it wasn't a matter of trying to read a menu in Cyrillic. I got off easy here, and we ended up with something I had never seen before. It was braised beef with onions wrapped in what appeared to be a very oversized soft taco shell-it came out looking almost like a giant pelmeni. Once it's unwrapped, it was a free for all-just difgging in with your fork to grab these huge chunks of beef, with some onion. There was a semi spicy red sauce on the side similar to a mexican red salsa, but it was awesome. On the side we had a big platter of sliced veggies that served to enhance the dish. In all, it was quite a wonderful meal, with very many toasts during the feast.
All throughout the meal, I was grilled incessantly by Inna. Everything from my family to my job, my hopes for the future, and if I wanted to have more children with Olga. It got a bit more serious when we chatted about my views on life, and personal values, and when given many "test" questions with hypothetical situations, or about my real intents with a relationship and how serious I am. Apparently I passed with flying colors! Olga was beaming at me more and more after every question, and I could see the pride in her eyes. Near the end of the meal, we talked about family values, and Inna made it very clear that she expects me to become part of the family, and fully participate in family gatherings in her home. I was also grilled about my drinking habbits, as this I have found out is a real sore spot for the family as all the men they have known had a strong tendancy to drink heavily. Even Inna's husband goes on multiple day jags which she tolerates, but really hates. Again, I passed that test, and earned some huge brownie points I think.
By the end of the meal, it was back to ligh hearted conversation, and everyone was having a great time. I even was able to tell a couple "safe" jokes that got a lot of laughs. I had Olga running her fingers through my hair, and showing the biggest smile and show of pride I have ever seen from her.
At the conclusion of this day, my patience I think has paid off, despite all the red flags and the signs to the contrary. I had thought I was being taken for a huge ride, but it wasn't so. Out of the ashes the phoenix rises, and life begins anew. I think with anyone else here on this site, this lady would have been nexted within the first day or two at most. But I really think I found not only a great woman, but maybe the greatest find in all of Ukraine. She not only won my heart, but Inna as well. By the time we were riding back home, we had a very easy rappor and had perfect chemistry. All in all, I don't think I could have asked for a better day! ;D
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Chris, unless you are willing to do as I suggested (nothing to lose by doing so) and confront her, instruct her as to how the world is going to be and get her willing acquiescence then there is no analysis to be made.
Simply put, only a loon would proceed with this case, in this manner.
EDIT having read your post above:
YOU SHAGGED HER DIDN'T YOU!
Even if she is 'genuine' would you consider a woman as nutty, damaged, inconsiderate etc as this one if she lived next to you in your community?
Nope, thought not.
Enjoy the day and move on.
If this woman is now mid 30's her family will be pleased as punch to be getting her off their hands. They will love you to bits. There are good reasons why an apparently attractive woman of her age has had only one relationship that can be shared with you and none of them are good (for you!)
Women are not a rare commodity in this world. I am certain that a part of your rationalization is predicated upon scarcity. Perhaps the scarcity is imposed, in your mind, by lack of time or money but these are false rationalizations.
Women form roughly half the population of the world and there are many, many women suitable for each man. Drop this one. Find a woman close to you and for gods sake get out of the USAian fetish for skinny women. Go see a bump feeler if necessary but start to see that most women are beautiful in their own ways. Then you will find the woman who will make you happy very close to where you are.
This woman, on some level, understands that you see her as a rarity and she is playing upon it. It is basic to women in the MOB malarkey to play upon USAian weaknesses and this is as common as muck.
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Andrewfi, if nothing else, at least your posts are entertaining. And yes, Ihave been accused many times of being a loon-but damn happy this way, so don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Wound I consider such a "nutty, damaged, inconsiderate etc as this one if she lived next to you in your community"? yes, I would. Apparently you haven't dated to many American women-what she has is very minor in my experience, and I know the payoff is worth the little extra effort it will take in earning her trust and getting her back into the swing of things. I have confronted her on some matters already and dictated how some things are going to be. She was good with it, and actually seemed relieved that I took charge. It's true that I have been a bit intimidated because of the situation, and being in unfamiliar territory. But the confidence is back, and I'm taking no prisoners.
The situation with the family isn't to get her off their hands. On the contrary! First of all it will be a bit more of a burden with her gone because her sister won't have live-in child care readily available, or the extra hand to help around the home. Secondly, the family wants Olga to be happy first and formost. Plus the fact that they want to see more children in the future and my desire to have them also was another big bonus. There are just so many guys that once they hit their late 30s or up no longer desire to have kids. This was another factor early on where Olga and I found compatability.
So Andrewfi, I don't know what world you live on, but it's not the one where I live. I respect the fact that you have your opinions, so please respect mine. I will live my life as I see fit and proper, and give my heart only to those who I see as deserving of it. I'm not perfect, nor is anyone else. At this point I am at least 90% sure a marriage is in the future, so I hope that if it happns all will work out as hoped. Even if it doesn't work in the long run, it's a vast improvement over my ex, and an experience I will always cherish.
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At this point I am at least 90% sure a marriage is in the future, so I hope that if it happns all will work out as hoped.
You have to be kidding? You've been there a week and hardly know the woman, and yet you can say this? Within the first first few days she left you locked in your apartment and spun you some cock and bull story. Best case with that is she's incredibly inconsiderate and worse case she lied while partying with her boyfriend. None of this is indicative of a woman with good character. Even if you suffered memory loss and forgot all these things, it's still way too soon to even say "50% sure" let alone 90%. Come on, really? That you even verbalize 90% makes me think that you've been at the MOB kool aid and intervention is required. :'(
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Chris, have only been reading, no expert for sure.
I would hear the old hands words, but as you, follow my heart, and intuitions. But do not dismiss their words.
My only advice is : never accept less then what you want, never give an inch, be true to your self, Keep it simple and real. I wish you the best in this new year, and hope this works out as you desire, win, loose or draw.
Very informative TR, you write from the core, and it really shows you are one of the good guys.
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Chris, you may be setting yourself on a tragic course. Do not let the fact that you do not accept the genuine and concerned thoughts of myself and others set you on a course simply in order to prove yourself right.
A woman who left me locked up, stole my money and only displayed affection in the company of her family (who REALLY want to see her gone) is not a person that I'd consider. You probably deserve better. I have lived with, worked with and dated more American women than many of you lot have and for sure they are not as you seem to describe.
However, even if what you say is true and US women are the same as this one, why set on marrying it when you can have similar at home for less trouble and with whom you can talk without need of electronic assistance or the help of 'friends'?
Sit down and THINK for a moment. Forget that you just had the first sex that you have had in many, many months and remember that a shag is just a shag.
You will be a milch cow for these folks, you will be an asset to the family, do not for one second think otherwise.
If she is unmarried, never married and is moderately attractive there is something wrong with her. She will have been a worry for her family for years. Why do you think she is on a foreign facing MOB site? That is where women who are not able to get a local bloke go.
Right now her family will be putting best foot forward, crossing fingers behind their backs and telling her EXACTLY how to recover the situation. Did it not seem odd that the first time the woman is affectionate is with her family present. Did it not seem odd that they should take such a fast liking to you?
The questioning was simply the 'relationship interview' done by the sister. If your target was serious SHE would have been doing the asking on day one or two and if you passed the test then panties would have been down. Instead, sister did the interview, you passed and then panties came down.
Remember this. If I and others did NOT care then we would be either silent or urging you to continue your quest. We DO care and so we say something to you.
Curiogeo is correct. DO not compromise on your standards. If you think a thief and a liar is what you deserve then go for it. Huzzah to you!
But I think that you know better.
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So let me cover some of the high points of our meal and meeting. I think some of this will be very educational in any event. First rule of meeting family is that there needs to be a gift of some sort to the head of the family, or to both parents as the case may be. In my case Inna being the surrogate parent, she was the one to get some not so expensive but much needed cosmetics.
Keeping the cash flowing otherwise she may just disappear.
Andrewfi, ~
Apparently you haven't dated to many American women-what she has is very minor in my experience, and I know the payoff is worth the little extra effort it will take in earning her trust and getting her back into the swing of things. I have confronted her on some matters already and dictated how some things are going to be. She was good with it, and actually seemed relieved that I took charge. It's true that I have been a bit intimidated because of the situation, and being in unfamiliar territory. But the confidence is back, and I'm taking no prisoners.
:chuckle:
Chris you come off as a guy who hasn't dated many girls period. AW are pussy cats compared to some UW who are not into a guy that can't take the hint. So in their culture they will use the fool to their advantage. I have to say I find no entertainment in this TR and the only educational value I see is why it's important to be able to date locally,or at least have interaction with some females that will give you a bit of street smarts.
Do yourself a favour and head to Odessa, hang with Christian,and learn the ropes.
I wish you the best, I don't want to stick around and read this much more. :(
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I don't want to stick around and read this much more.
At this point I am happy to oblige and end the TR here as it's become a whole lot more trouble than it's worth.
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chris, if you seek approbation just tell us - we can oblige.
if you are feeling challenged then that is good. It means you are starting to think. Anger with the messenger is usual at this point - there is a reason for the saying 'don't shoot me I'm just the messenger!'
Maybe you will end up married to this woman and maybe you will be happy - that is good. However, I am sure that you will agree that you'd not have taken actions that you say you have done without the posts by people like myself so, don't shoot the messenger, you are already benefiting from the messages.
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Andrew,
I'd disagree with you about women on foreign facing MOB sites not being able to get a local bloke.
I'd say the majority of women on those sites HAVE got a local bloke,but the women just join MOB sites to fleece foreign men also,with the off-chance that they might meet a foreign guy that floats her boat more than the local Boris.
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Chris,
If i may make a suggestion.
Tell the girl of your desire that funds are running a bit tight,so your wallet will have to stay shut now,and see how she reacts.
Any girl worth her salt will be interested in the man,not his money.
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It was a day she again wouldn't take my hand in public, telling me there would be plenty of time for "that stuff" back at the apartment.
Very odd IMHO that she equates hand holding with "that stuff".
She tells me she wants me to be her husband, yet doesn't show the strong attachment or any romantic feelings, or even the desire to spend much time together.
At this point, it does not matter if she is a pro-dater, but would you really want to be married to a woman who doesn't show any romantic feelings and doesn't even want to be around you?!?
One thing that really threw me for a loop and keeps me guessing is the fact that she wanted to talk about how I could possibly get my kids back, and bring them here to Ukraine someday.
What that tells me is that she is quite adept at playing your emotions. She now knows what buttons to push to get an emotional reaction you :-X
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But I do know she's not looking to relocate and doesn't need a "mule"-that was mentioned a couple times im my TR. On the contrary-she says she wants to make a life here, and has asked me to start taking Russian classes soon as possible.
Or she knows precisely what to say to deflect any possible accusations of being a GCG :-X
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I know the payoff is worth the little extra effort it will take in earning her trust and getting her back into the swing of things.
How do you know this? And what exactly is the payoff you are hoping for?
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Chris, I can't disagree with anything said here, from the extreme doubters to yourself who actually knows the girl.
Everyone has valid concerns and points so no point in redoubling the advice. However, so it doesn't feel like one-way traffic, I'll try and be a bit more balanced. I genuinely believe that your girl isn't playing sneaky games but appears to be rather indecisive and a bit mixed up. Her actions are not one of a person who is 100% behind a relationship with you and some people are just out right strange in the way they approach things. Maybe she needs her older sister to make big decisions for her, who knows??
Hardly a compliment I know, but perhaps her mercurial personality is from a difficult background and tough upbringing? Whatever it is, you've got a girl who's going to be seriously hard work. However, a relationship with her may well be the most rewarding thing you ever do and what evers said here, you have to follow your instincts because your on the front line. Maybe once she feels that you have her trust, then you'll become the mecca in her life?
I believe most of the frustration from the guys here is because your making things hard for yourself. International dating is one of the most challenging things you can undertake so the question is why would you complicate it further with a woman who simply isn't straight forward in her actions. I guess to give you the best odds of success, you need to meet a woman who ticks all the boxes, and returns your desire and willingness to make it work in equal measures.
Please don't do a runner and keep us posted, its not only interesting but I genuinely want to find out how you personally get on?
Cheers
Ross
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Love planet is free to join every one of these girls are online right this
moment (that I posted this) Remember many girls will look better than
their photos because they just don't photograph well and some will look
much worse because they put up photos from 10 years ago.
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-album/login-qawsed1520/foto-2/#page/1
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-showalbum/login-vladka30/
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-showalbum/login-diisco2211/
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-album/login-roza1978603q/foto-6/#page/1
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-album/login-zmeiska/foto-17/#page/1
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-album/login-euphoriaoo/foto-2/#page/1
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-album/login-chekhova83/foto-3/#page/1
http://en.loveplanet.ru/a-showalbum/login-29120203/
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Chris, I like many here think you have an up hill climb at best, But I agree with Rosco, keep everyone in the Loop as it does help regardless of some of the feed back, which you knew you were going to get.
To expand a bit on Rosco's thought. Divorce rate in North America is pushing 55%
What I read on Two different surveys about international relationships is one = 37% and 43% divorce rate.
If your going to do this remember that costs involved, You want the Odds to increase at every corner, not decrease.
Why not, ask so more hard questions, promise nothing and then when you get home, talk to some you trust, write it all down, good bad and ugly and make your choice based on what you know at home versus on the ground with your girl in a very tough ride there, with many ups and downs.
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Consider this - I have a friend who is a respiratory therapist ($100K+ a year and Gets paid $50 hour to sleep at Nursing Homes at nights and weekends in case they need to wake him to Run a crash cart on a terminal patient so they die in the emergency room and not at the nursing home (a lot less time and paperwork and costs) - so not a dumb guy. He fell hard like a tree for a Russian 10 about 28yrs old back in the mid 90's - I met her - she was a rocket ship - every US guy who saw her wanted to "tap that" I knew she was with my friend so I resisted the urge myself.
She wanted to live in Florida so he found work there in less than a week (Plenty of Nursing Homes) - he put all his stuff in storage and they moved in together in FLA - she led him sexually on but they were more like roomates. So one day he leaves the video camera running on super long play mode pointed at the phone and she winds up ignoring the red flashing light (he told her it was charging) and taped her on the phone with her Russian boyfrined saying she did not love my friend and was just using him and could not wait till her RBF could come to Florida and they could be together again (he had legal and visa issues) - she wound up pulling a lot of stunts - checked out nearly $16K worth of Blockbuster videos on his cards that she sold in the local Russian networks and ran up most of his credit cards to the hilt and had lived with him working his arse off night and day so they could buy a house in FLA - she sold 2 out of every three dresses she bought and finally he confronted her because as it turned out after 6 mos living together in FLA she never once made love to him!!!! Of course she flipped out and attacked him - a third degree black belt capable of either saving or taking your life and he was not about to go to prison over her so he kept his hands to himself and he walked out. So he then turned the keys over to the landlord said he was moving back to Boston and left her there to fend for herself - he filed bankruptcy to wipe out nearly $100K in credit card debts she helped him incur and it took him several years of night and day/weekends work to recover and then he bought himself a house on his own. Fortunately he did not marry her and was not on the hook for alimony support and or worse child support.
Key point is a lack of intimacy and tenderness is a clear indication of someone else more important in her life than you and it is not unheard of for a family and boyfriend to tag team up and have their smoking hot kova take one for the benefit of the "team". Really at this point based upon what you have shared if you do not study the typical DV GCG modus operandi so slearly documented many times over in the Train Wreck room at RUA then you have only yourself to blame as you are clearly in shoot the messenger mode (often brought on by HOIDS - Hard On Induced Denial Syndrome) we have all had simliar monents of weakness too so fore warned is fore armed.
FYI She sort of runined my friend on other women for several years as trust became a big issue - most trainwrecks that occur here are either with huge age gaps or with a with a woman, often quite hot, who shows minimal necessary intimacy - nearly no warmth or caring - she just does what has to do - and when the do put out to seal the deal you are basically cooked.
This is why I am so selective with both the AW and FSUW that I meet. If I do not sense a very caring and concerned nurturing female attitude towards me as you would rightfully expect from a siginificant other, lover and potential wife - any disrespect, lack of concern, lack of warmth or caring and they are nexted.
You bring a smoking hot kova to the USA who shows you barely minimal love and tenderness and puts out just enough to keep you hooked, line and sinker... she will be hit on buy just about every type of guy who will think to himself - man I would love to tap that stuff. Without a sincere love connection and mutually exclusive arrangement how long before she takes up one of the next better deal offerers on their propositions. Oh yeah and you expose your self to the classic DV GCG scam and are on the hook for her affidavit of support as long as she wants to stay here for at least 10 years or whatever the courts order. Oh and she gets to stay in a home you MUST pay for and keep all your stuff and money.
Isn't the USA anti-male legal system just dandy?
This is very serious business and to ignore the many experienced folks here who have kindly pointed out the many red flags you have shared is your choice. Personally I wish you well and know that there are times a hard-on has no conscious and when you need a good lay - a man has his needs so who are we to judge. What you do moving forward is you own private business and if it works - great but given all the red flags - which is why we have a train wreck room here - you might want to consider testing out the waters with some new talent as T2B has generously guided you towards doing.
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ChrisE hopefully you will have a safe flight back home. I will try to write up some of my thoughts Monday or Tuesday. AvHdB
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Chris, your last day, there on what has been one hell of a roller coaster ride, hope you have a good day and a safe trip home :plane:
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Andrew,
I'd disagree with you about women on foreign facing MOB sites not being able to get a local bloke.
I'd say the majority of women on those sites HAVE got a local bloke,but the women just join MOB sites to fleece foreign men also,with the off-chance that they might meet a foreign guy that floats her boat more than the local Boris.
OK, let me rephrase it.
Women who are serious about finding a foreign husband on a foreign facing MOB site are doing so because they can not get what they want locally. And yes, a sensible woman keeps her options open.
Don't forget, most women do not get a plethora of contacts, most women get very few and so they are not in the game to snag a new pair of boots or a 'pension' - they are genuine about seeking a bloke (or destination). I/we do not know if this woman is one of the pareto 20% or not.
This woman has, I think, a local boyfriend and we can see she ain't serious about Chris. But I am willing to lay some money that she is unmarried at her age and without disclosed serious relationships, apart from one, because there is something wrong with her that local blokes can easily see but that foreigners would miss.
I bet that if chris were to ask he'd discover that the idea of looking for a foreign bloke came not from the lovely Olga but from her sister or possibly a friend.
Kinda like when selling a car. There are tricks that can be used to cover faults to fool a rube that would absolutely not work for a buyer who knew anything about cars.
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Another thought for you Chris.
You mention various red flags and issues which concern you. When I had my Ukrainian girlfriend, I too had a number of concerns and so called red flags. I put it down to a combination of paranoia, RUA scare stories and simple misunderstandings. I actually thought that these red flags were par for the course on such an adventure, it's normal!
However, my new girl is completely different. Not one single red flag. She's equally if not more motivated to keep in contact and make this work. Extremely affectionate and makes it clear to the world I'm her man. Monies never been an issue and she has tremendous pride in trying to achieve her goals under her own steam. This girl is transparent and 100% genuine.
So as you can see, I've only ever had 2 FSU relationships but both completely different. Without the second one, I would have considered the hard work of the first to be normal. I would also have considered FSU girlfriends to be great looking girls who are amazing fun, but are also a little selfish, spoiled, hard work and expect their man to provide for them. Clearly this isn't the case and perhaps you need to decide if your trying to push water uphill. Once you personalise a relationship I always think the hardest thing to do is be ruthless and decided early on if you think the relationship has legs or not. The best thing you can do is let the dust settle and assess what's happened once your home. Only then can you decide whats next, but it's imperative your honest with yourself.
Anyhoo, enjoy your last day and let us know how things have developed. Hopefully the ice is broken as it were and you've managed to form a bind with this girl.
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Just a quick reply as I'm heading out the door on another date. She got the idea from a friend who is married to a euro guy. Her friend is extremely happy, and doesn't have to put up with the local russian guy BS.
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Good luck and a safe trip home Chris :)
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Good luck to you , Chris. And we are waiting for you here. Have a safe and comfortable trip home.
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Thanks for the well wishes-I'm off to the airport in about 8 hours now.
Just wanted to update and say that I had a huge "intervention" of sorts and laid everything on the line at out last dinner out. To say it was a bumpy ride would be a bit of an understatement, but we rode it out and solved a lot of issues. I am convinced now of her sincerity, and have gained a whole new level of understanding, as she has also. The ice has thawed and things are close to what I thought (as others here) to what they should be like under the circumstances. She gave me a very teary goodnight even though we will see each other for a very short time in the morning. This story is far from over, but a lot of things will have to be worked out from the homefront. Until next time, I'll leave this post with a final happy photo.
[attachimg=1]
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What a thread.
Although the events are RED FLAG CENTRAL it bothers me to read how some of you keep :dh: on a guy who's STILL IN the trenches, obviously disorientated by emotions and experiences.
ChrisE is a smart guy, he will come back to the USA and reflect on things and come to the right conclusions and make the right decisions.
Im confident in that.
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at least there will be no talk of visas at this point and when you get home you will see that the happy photo has at least one person who is not happy. you did not ask her to marry you did you?
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What a thread.
Although the events are RED FLAG CENTRAL it bothers me to read how some of you keep :dh: on a guy who's STILL IN the trenches, obviously disorientated by emotions and experiences.
ChrisE is a smart guy, he will come back to the USA and reflect on things and come to the right conclusions and make the right decisions.
Im confident in that.
Christian,
I am sorry but out of respect to you what you do not see is the hours that a small group of us have spent with Chris in the Chat room where he has discussed in great detail all the events and lobbied for our opinions, although he does not want to see what is glaring him straight in the face
Most of the people there are the ones like myself that have major number of trips under their belts and are mostly nearly married or married guys, all we have tried to do is to get Chris to go and look at the scenery while he was there, but no he has elected to sit for hours ont internet talking in the chatroom, i think that speaks volumes.
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It's a no brainer. When you meet a woman that is worth the effort, emotional turmoil and life commitment that an international marriage requires above and beyond what marriage to a local woman requires, you will know it. This isn't a subtle thing. It is as obvious and as plain as day as a punch in the face, a hammer in the kneecap and a poke in the eye. If you have to rationalize and excuse behaviours to get her to fit into that "she's the one" image you have, then she isn't it. And if she isn't, you may very well, as a couple, with a lot of effort and patience be able to shoehorn yourselves together and make it work in a square peg, round hole sort of way, but why oh why, would you ever want to? Yes, some do and claim happiness but I submit that these men do not know what real happiness is.
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My opinon,
ChrisE has made his choices and I hope he has made the right one for himself. Certainly on this thread and to different degrees in chat we have encouraged (and berated) him to consider the reality as we see it.
There are those men who will set sail in a tempest or attempt to do what we view as impossible. My opinion is that Chris has something of a boulder that he needs to move to the top of a mountain. At the end he will be a bit wiser and allot stronger.
Such is life.
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At the end he will be a bit wiser and allot stronger.
Some say 'that which does not kill us makes us stronger'. It ain't true.
Chris may persevere and if he does it may be from an element of cussedness - proving himself right at his own expense.
If he takes that course he will likely find that he ends up wiser but weaker.
It is good that he chose to talk with this woman, a shame he waited until all that was left was talk.
I truly hope that Chris keeps that picture he shares well in front of him so he can see that it is anything but that which he currently sees.
Chris, remember this:
There is no shortage of women.
If you put the same resources into finding a woman with whom you can talk freely and in the same native tongue as you have with this person then you will undoubtedly find a whole heap of candidates for your needs.
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Chris,
I never spoke to you in chat and only know the details discussed on this thread.
I guess in summary, your the only guy here who lived the experience and spent time with the girl. It sounds like you've perhaps made some headway in this relationship and for that, I'm very happy for you. It will be nice if you can keep us all updated and I hope you don't feel that too much negativity was thrown your way. We're all here to see each other succeed in one of life's trickiest quests!!
Well done on the TR and good luck for the future.
Ross
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Chris,
I never spoke to you in chat and only know the details discussed on this thread.
I guess in summary, your the only guy here who lived the experience and spent time with the girl. It sounds like you've perhaps made some headway in this relationship and for that, I'm very happy for you. It will be nice if you can keep us all updated and I hope you don't feel that too much negativity was thrown your way. We're all here to see each other succeed in one of life's trickiest quests!!
Well done on the TR and good luck for the future.
Ross
What we the few threw him was experience not negativity (:)
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I agree with you Sparky, but many guys don't see it this way when their in the firing line.
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What we the few threw him was experience not negativity (:)
If what you were saying ran counter to Chris' experience, feelings and opinions then you were being negative - from his perspective.
There is nothing that can be done about this other than to stick a feather up a bloke's arse, tell him everything is fine - full ahead and damn the torpedoes.
The best that one can do is to be consistently honest and to offer reasons and alternatives, rather than simple gainsaying, in order to provoke some thought. There is little or nothing in this thread that posters should not be happy to have written and I infer the same is true of any chat sessions.
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That old saying, its not what you say, But how you say it.
This thread is a good example of that! If you read from start to beginning,
Almost everyone said the same thing in different ways.
So is it better to be rude and blunt and :fighting0025: in to someones head.
Or nice, positive and state the same things.
Another old saying, each to his own :)
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It’s strange as I find myself agreeing with Don's post up-thread, while this thread is undoubtedly compelling reading it’s also horrible in the same breath, I would liken it to watching a deaf, one legged blind man in an ass kicking contest - you all know the outcome but the guy just won't/can't hear you!
I think somehow this story kinda goes beyond Chris and after the dust has settled we have to look at the value of this story for newbie’s and those with experience own it to them to point out all the negatives - and boy they have their work cut out for them!
Its strange as a few times last week when reading this story I found myself placing myself in Chris's shoes and almost thinking aloud "what would I do?", firstly with respect I wouldn't have got on a plane to visit a women who I knew absolutely jack shit about in the first place, however you couldn't help but feel the pain on this one, for goodness sake the guy was in chat or posting pretty much 24/7 I think without fear of contradiction this lady didn't give him more than a couple of hours per day, and unless I missed something over the weekend none of these occurred in the evenings!
The main points as I see them are the following;
The taxi from the airport - she either ripped you off in collusion with the taxi driver or has no respect for your money or you as a person and was happy to watch the taxi driver rip you off himself -take your pick whichever you think is best!
Grocery store - £160 is shocking amount for grocery store in Ukraine (maybe this was the family business?) and smacks of testing your wallet on something mundane. For balance we spent about £50 in a supermarket in St Pete last year and it took all three of us to carry it back to the apartment, and we also brought alcohol!
The New Years Dress - Which I have no doubts was expensive - have you ever seen her wear this? My guess is she either wore it on New Year’s whilst with somebody else or took it back to the shop- or sold it to somebody else!
New Years itself - This was the most unacceptable moment of your entire TR, it went beyond ripping you off, it showed contempt for you and your mental well-being, basically there are a number of options here - she either went out with her local boyfriend, another western guy or was telling the truth and cared so little for your well-being that she left you locked, trapped in your apartment for 24 hours over New years eve of all days. Either way it was unforgivable and I'm sorry to say - only somebody with NO respect for themselves would let anybody threat them this way and get away with it!
Allowing you about 3 hours of her time everyday, never in the evening and with an excuse for every single evening for why she couldn't spend it with you. Possibly the most laughable of all was the excuse on 6th that she was preparing a meal for the next day! Of course that’s normal, guy travels thousands of miles to meet a women and cooking is more important, hell why didn't she just say she was "washing her hair?"
Least we forget the no hand-holding, not knowing where she lives or works, and not even a peck on the cheek for your troubles.
Its extremely likely you met a pro-dater, I can't work out if she tested the waters early and knew you were on a budget and that’s why you didn't get much of her time or that she was working another western guy at the same time as your visit - hence a perfect explanation for the "hot potato" act of the entire week. Either that or an outrageously inconsiderate person who cared not one inch for your happiness, money, time and effort! Again you can take your pick really!
The money thing was bad, but we have read that here all before and it’s not that shocking anymore (unless it’s your pocket being emptied) however without a shadow of a doubt leaving you on your own pretty much being a prisoner on New Year’s Eve is IMHO probably an FSUW all time low!
The developments of the last few days of the visit come as no real surprise as the danger of intimacy has now passed and all she has to do is make a few noises a couple of times a week by phone and prepare for the next visit if it arrives, she is the only winner in this story! As another member has already mentioned (and in-fact something I commented on Friday in Chat after seeing another set of photos), pay close attention to that photo and the ones from the Museum as they smack of a women going through the motions and hopefully back on the ground in the US you will see this.
Despite your mistakes Chris I believe you are a good guy and you deserve so much better than this, don't settle for it!
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Chris,
Here's hoping you have arrived home safe from your trip abroad :thumbsup:
Having not spoken to you about your TR, but only having read what you wrote, I think I can equate to a LOT of what you wrote! Mrs. GS sounds like your lady in some ways.
When we were in Russia during my first visit, the "warm" and "cold" drove me crazy! After getting to know Mrs. GS a LOT better, I learned that, like your lady, Mrs. GS's experiences with relationships were quite "different" from what I would have expected. In some "public" situations, she would hold my hand / arm while in others - NOT.
I'm not here to "excuse" how your lady acted during your trip, nor to excuse my wife's behavior during my trip. In part, *some* of the behavior I experienced, and Chris wrote about, have to do with how the lady was raised and her previous "relationship" experience(s). Mrs. GS's mom divorced her Dad when she was young and she lived with Mom and Grandma most of her life. (A post from Rosco a few back made me think about the previous relationship "issues" with Mrs. GS...)
I also chalk up a NUMBER of miscommunication I had to using a computer and not a HUMAN to do a bunch of translating. My wife having been in English as a Second Language now for a couple of years knows more and more English. Recently, I showed my wife a copy of a transcript the Google translator had kept of one of our conversations. My wife kept having to refer to the English one as the "translated" one didn't always make sense :'(
I don't think it's my place to give you any kind of advice here... I can only say... There was one thing that helped Mrs. GS and I and that was to get her away from her familiar surroundings to some place "neutral". The "neutral" location in this case was a small "resort". I perceived at the time that once Mrs. GS was no longer afraid of running into friends/family and I was able to "see" her reactions without those influences.
You also mentioned meeting her Sister and how well that went. I remember reading in Manny's book (I think it was Manny's book...) about how FSU girls will put guys into "test" situations. Mrs. GS did that to me more than once during my 3 visits.
By the way... You mentioned a couple of posts back that you were working on Plan B (or was it Plan C???) You also mention being on the way out the door on a "date". Was the "date" with your Plan A lady or a Plan C one?
GS
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No, I am not home yet. Due to a delay in Munich, I missed my connection in Toronto, so had to spend the night here in Canada on the airline. At least I got a hotel and meals comped.
Yes-I met Olga's sister, and I sure went through the gambit of tests. I was asked about everything from my family, job, values, and even if I liked blondes. The last one almost got me killed, but I managed to pull off not only a save, but got me some huge bonus points judging from the reactions I got. At the end of the meal, I was rewarded with a kiss on the cheek from Inna (Olga's sister), and a welcome to the family with a short lecture of how I will be spending many times in the future at her place for special family meals and celebrations. Afterwards, Olga told me very often how much I am liked by her sister, and she showed a lot of pride in this.
I did take the bus back to Donetsk, and I know that from now on if I have to make this trip, it will be the transport of choice. It was a midsize bus, and very comfortable. The cost was 42 UAH for the trip-a HUGE difference from what the taxi "ride" I had going the other way. Then from the bus station in Donetsk, I managed to find a taxi to the airport for a measly 36 UAH. I guess I was lucky as it was almost all the Ukrainian funds I had left-but it goes to show that it's always possible to negotiate fares.
As an update, I have made a realization that would explain a lot, if not most that has happened causing the big red flags. On my last day, I needed to exchange $20 US to make sure I had enough Grivnas for the trip. The 'terp took it to the bank and came back with only half of what it should have been. Her excuse was that the bank took their "cut", which I know is total BS. Of course she didn't relay that to Olga. I came to realize that all the money issues and descrepencies I had, and "extra" expenses where only when dealing with the 'terp. When I dealt directly with Olga, she took good care to manage the money well, and made sure to find good prices, etc. It was the 'terp who set up the taxi ride from the airport, and who I had to pay the taxi driver through. Olga only came into the picture at the end of the trip once we got back to Lugansk. It was also the 'terp who came by and collected the "extra" rent for having to pay for the deposit on the place that was cancelled at first. She also was the one who asked for taxi fare a couple times when Olga was not around. It was also the 'terp who wanted to take me shopping for "gifts" without Olga around, which I saw as really odd-but she said it was just good advice, and tradition. Of course I didn't buy that, or buy any "gifts" which seemed to peeve her quite a bit. Olga didn't seem to have expected anything as far as extra gifts, and was not in the least offended when she didn't get any. Hmm...seems to me there might have been a skunk in our midst?
I am curious if anyone has had this experience-maybe Olga really was on the up and up and truly legit, while the 'terp was the one trying to play her game while keeping the lady in the dark using the language barrier to her advantage?
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I am curious if anyone has had this experience-maybe Olga really was on the up and up and truly legit, while the 'terp was the one trying to play her game while keeping the lady in the dark using the language barrier to her advantage?
I'm sorry but, who got this terp? Just asking, not pointing fingers.
Chris, good luck and hope everything turns out fine.
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I am curious if anyone has had this experience-maybe Olga really was on the up and up and truly legit, while the 'terp was the one trying to play her game while keeping the lady in the dark using the language barrier to her advantage?
I'm sorry but, who got this terp? Just asking, not pointing fingers.
Chris, good luck and hope everything turns out fine.
The 'terp is supposed to be a friend of Olga's niece who is an English teacher at the local university. Olga had asked for her help, and no pay for the services was supposed to be paid by either of us-her "compensation" was to be just enjoy the perks of a couple meals on me, and going along for entertainment such as to the museum. But mostly it was done as a favor, so perhaps she decided to compensate herself? I don't know, but just saying the pieces fit and it makes sense-going along with (ouch) Andrewfi's definition of the simplest explaination probably being the right one.
Just as a prime example, when Olga exchanged some money for me, it came back correct, The bank didn't take half as a "cut" as it supposedly did with the 'terp.
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I am curious if anyone has had this experience-maybe Olga really was on the up and up and truly legit, while the 'terp was the one trying to play her game while keeping the lady in the dark using the language barrier to her advantage?
I'm sorry but, who got this terp? Just asking, not pointing fingers.
Chris, good luck and hope everything turns out fine.
The 'terp is supposed to be a friend of Olga's niece who is an English teacher at the local university. Olga had asked for her help, and no pay for the services was supposed to be paid by either of us-her "compensation" was to be just enjoy the perks of a couple meals on me, and going along for entertainment such as to the museum. But mostly it was done as a favor, so perhaps she decided to compensate herself? I don't know, but just saying the pieces fit and it makes sense-going along with (ouch) Andrewfi's definition of the simplest explaination probably being the right one.
Just as a prime example, when Olga exchanged some money for me, it came back correct, The bank didn't take half as a "cut" as it supposedly did with the 'terp.
Hi Chris,
Glad you are almost home. It is interesting that the terp was possibly not on the up and up. For any future trips I recommend you do any money exchanges. On both my trips to Odessa I have gone to banks and gotten my dollars exhanged for Grivas. Rarely was the bank employee an english speaker. It is a basic transaction and should be able to do on your own.
I truely hope Olga is a good woman and will make you happy. I have enjoyed reading your TR and I think it will be helpful to new folks who come here to learn.
Take care,
Lee
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The 'terp is supposed to be a friend of Olga's niece who is an English teacher at the local university. Olga had asked for her help, and no pay for the services was supposed to be paid by either of us-her "compensation" was to be just enjoy the perks of a couple meals on me, and going along for entertainment such as to the museum.
There are are stories where the interpeter has abused the trust of one or the other parties. It happens, this is why one of the first reasons you as the man should have some one to explain things for YOU. The "terp" should be your assistance and wingperson. I still strongly suspect that I was torpedoed in Sumy by the interpeter.
But most women would also have a sense that there relative, the "terp", was not on the up and up, or in others words not completely kosher.
My opinion Chris you have a long hike in front of you and we hope you can make this work. You certainly have not chosen the easiest path. I would be very worried about your finances undertaking this. One thing that very few women will accept is a man who can not hold up his end of the economic side.
Good luck and keep us informed.
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I have heard of the 'terp torpedoing relationships in the past, and I guess it's not too uncommon from the reading I have done and some feedback I recieved. I have done exchanges on my own at the banks, and never had a problem or gotten burned as I did with the 'terp. It was the 'terp that, when informed about my budget for certain things such as a meal out failed to pass it along to Olga. This caused Olga to overspend when she ordered, causing issues in the end when it was time for me to travel home. I was able to get this across to Olga about my informing the "terp, and she didn't look too happy when she learned this. I think the 'terp may have some explaining to do! lol
Yes, it's going to be an uphill battle, but one that seems to be leveling off a bit. I truly believe Olga is on the level, and that there will be a wonderful future together with her. I have made some preliminary decisions, so just biding my time to see how things go. Ther monetary issues are only temporary due to unpaid time off work, unexpected bills, and recent business start-up costs that have set me back for a bit. Nothing permanent, and investment in the future if all works as hoped. Olga has been very encouraging of my business venture, and fully backs me in it.
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My "going away" present from Olga as I got on the bus:
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/IMAG0152.jpg)
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ChrisE, you seem a pretty tech-savvy guy, and you took a few tablets etc. with you to Ukraine.
A separate post about getting online, dealing with Internet, etc. while in Ukraine would I am sure, be quite welcome by those of us planning to visit and who are worried about staying connected.
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I would be interested in the tech stuff to. I am going to buy an I pad and wondered if it would be easy to use as a PC.
advantages or disadvantages to either.
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Yes Chris, that's it. The interpreter was at fault for everything.
It was her who would not let Olga hold your hand when you were in her районе.
It was she who suggested to Olga that she leave you alone for a day and a night over New Year.
The interpreter was the one who would not let Olga spend time with you.
Yeah, and Olga was so in her thrall that she could not overpower the interpreter and deal with you properly.
Look mate, you may be boracic right now but the money is just the smallest part and, frankly, if you did not arrange to pay her for services rendered then the small amount she got frm you was small recompense. You should have been paying her from day one, hour one.
Even if the interpreter was the spawn of shaitan it was not her who influenced Olga to mistreat you.
But you have enabled your new family to have plausible deniability and they will use it again and again.
Please do NOT do anything about setting this woman up in business. If you must import her to your country, but do not fantasise about living and working in Ukraine, it ain't gonna happen. Look at another poster here who thought it might be dobby to itty and live in Ukraine with like the attractive devotchka with like the pretty litso.
He messel that she messel she wanted to be with like him in Ukraine - that was not the deal on the table at all! He was supposed to remont her dacha and then shvat her to live with like him in the US.
Think a little Chris.
What would YOU think if it were I or Bruce Lee who wrote the words you have been writing?
What would YOU say to us?
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Think a little Chris.
What would YOU think if it were I or Bruce Lee who wrote the words you have been writing?
What would YOU say to us?
Mr Fi, if I were the one writing after you or BL wrote the same I'd say KEEP YOUR EYES WIDE OPEN. However, not being there and JUST BASED on what's been written here (not the chat room) I'd say she is kinda spacy and not too reliable. Evil? Nah! Not even close. Scheming? I don't get that impression, OR at least in the way it would be described here. That there is a chance he will get his buns toasted? Doesn't everyone?
Let's face it. Some guys like girls like that OR there is something she did that rattled Chris' bells. The point is he is going forward with it. AND IF HE'D BE SMART ENOUGH, he'd have his eyes wide open... and also his ears.
Can't save the world, Mister.
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maybe Olga really was on the up and up and truly legit, while the 'terp was the one trying to play her game while keeping the lady in the dark using the language barrier to her advantage?
No, they worked together as a team against you to squeeze as much
out of you as possible. There is no scenario that can be devised even
if all of us worked together creating it which would make Olga on the
up and up.
Is there a single person on this forum besides yourself you doesn't think
this?
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maybe Olga really was on the up and up and truly legit, while the 'terp was the one trying to play her game while keeping the lady in the dark using the language barrier to her advantage?
No, they worked together as a team against you to squeeze as much
out of you as possible. There is no scenario that can be devised even
if all of us worked together creating it which would make Olga on the
up and up.
Is there a single person on this forum besides yourself you doesn't think
this?
Bill, I wasn't there so I cannot say with certainty the she was on the sting. So, I would be one of those.
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Bill i would be thinking it maybe, but Like Muzh was not there so don't know!
Eyes wide open you bet, find someone to help with it maybe.
But if Chris chooses to follow this through, despite whats been written here.
then at the very least if it goes sideways, he should not be shocked.
I think in one of his last posts, he was going to proceed with caution.
I spoke with him in chat last night, he was not even home at this point.
So a roller coaster ride on his trip, helluva a rough trip home.
Maybe best we let him, settle in and see if there is more we don't know!
( or we could just keep telling someone else what to do with there life!)
Hmmm wonder who wants to be responsible for that.
Best i can figure he is an adult, if he screws up, he will be the one paying for it!
I am sure like most once home and a chance to think about it all, he will at least proceed
with extreme caution or maybe even move on.
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There is no scenario that can be devised even if all of us worked together creating
it which would make Olga on the up and up.
Is there a single person on this forum besides yourself you doesn't think
this?
Bill, I wasn't there so I cannot say with certainty the she was on the sting. So, I would be one of those.
I am not a 100% sure that she was on that part of the sting either only 70%
sure. But I am 100% sure that the woman is not on the UP and UP, or is not
legit.
Is there anyone who thinks that this woman is legit? that she was just a sweet
thing who accidentally abandoned him on New Years Eve? and didn't show up
until late the next afternoon? who really loves him and didn't spend hardly any
time with him?
Is there anyone who believes it was just the darn translator who fouled everything
up? and that ChrisE would have been smothered daily in kisses had it not been for
that pesky translator?
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Bill, point made :chuckle:
This I would agree with tiphat
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I think in one of his last posts, he was going to proceed with caution.
He has said stuff like that a hundred times and just keeps stepping on
his dick.
Best i can figure he is an adult, if he screws up, he will be the one paying for it!
I am sure like most once home and a chance to think about it all, he will at least proceed
with extreme caution or maybe even move on.
No, I think he will devise a hundred excuses as to why he needs to take
additional beatings from this same FSUW.
However I do agree that it's his life to screw up or succeed however he wants.
The newbies that read this have surely learned a number of things. Obviously I
can't convince ChrisE otherwise, I tried.
I can see no need for me to post in this thread further.
Udachi !!
Bill
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LOL@silly men that fly half way around the world to date women with "extreme caution" because of all the red flags. Seriously, why exactly? :biggrin:
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LOL@silly men that fly half way around the world to date women with "extreme caution" because of all the red flags. Seriously, why exactly? :biggrin:
Most because bored and to much money :laugh:
Chris E not sure why :chuckle:
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LOL@silly men that fly half way around the world to date women with "extreme caution" because of all the red flags. Seriously, why exactly? :biggrin:
Most because bored and to much money :laugh:
Chris E not sure why :chuckle:
as u said in chat - males have no logic ;D (or it was not u? it was Daryl then)
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LOL@silly men that fly half way around the world to date women with "extreme caution" because of all the red flags. Seriously, why exactly? :biggrin:
Most because bored and to much money :laugh:
Chris E not sure why :chuckle:
as u said in chat - males have no logic ;D (or it was not u? it was Daryl then)
Millaa,not me, but good statement regarding men, when it comes to women :nod:
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Yes Chris, that's it. The interpreter was at fault for everything.
Please do NOT do anything about setting this woman up in business. If you must import her to your country, but do not fantasise about living and working in Ukraine, it ain't gonna happen. Look at another poster here who thought it might be dobby to itty and live in Ukraine with like the attractive devotchka with like the pretty litso.
He messel that she messel she wanted to be with like him in Ukraine - that was not the deal on the table at all! He was supposed to remont her dacha and then shvat her to live with like him in the US.
Think a little Chris.
What would YOU think if it were I or Bruce Lee who wrote the words you have been writing?
What would YOU say to us?
ChrisE While Andrew says it in Andrew talk, I agree (just would use other words).
In my opinion you need to spend some time with Olga where you have another translator to help you. In the meantime work on your Russian skills and I assume you made it possible for Olga to improve her English skills.
You are now back home why not print this entire thread out and re-read it word for word and sentence for sentence. Think about the difference with Anna and consider other travel reports.
Are you so confident that you can "MAKE" this work and be a success?
AvHdB
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I have written before about the idea that guys need to be 'match fit' before getting involved with women across the world who market themselves on foreign facing marriage sites.
I would be willing to have an imaginary bet with myself that Chris has no recent experience (apart from a failed marriage) against which to set this little farrago in context. So, he, like some others here, is willing to accept three impossible things before breakfast because they know no different.
After all, in my life, if I had spent time with women/a woman who stole from me lied to me and otherwise abused me, and that was all I knew, then yes, I'd say 'proceed with caution' or some other silliness. She abused Chris and that will not stop because that is how she lives her life with men. She is attractive enough to have had choices but local guys budet imetʹ trakhal yee zhestkoĭ and walked away. A foreigner is the last best hope - like putting a filling and painting a rusty old car before sale. An innocent abroad might well miss the trick, a knowledgeable buyer would not. Any man who can not talk directly to the target of his affections is an innocent abroad.
If anyone, including Chris can find a way to make this Olga woman innocent in respect of New Years Eve (and even better to blame it on the interpreter) that makes sense and fits the givens then I will have a deal of respect and be willing to say 'OK - maybe'. But we all know that it ain't gonna happen.
Chris WILL do his best to get this woman married but my guess is that she is actually incapable of doing so. SHE will walk away and Chris will blame himself.
She ain't a scammer, the interpreter might be, but Olga is broken.
Only one serious relationship at age 35 tells you all you need to know.
And yeah AvHdB, not surprised you would use other words - it took ages to find a working English/Nadsat translator!
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Wow! Talk about an emotional roller coaster ride!
I'm just quoting you here Chris:
"For those who know me, they know of the personal turmoil I have already been going through to make this decision on who to visit..."
"It was touch and go-the day before it was decided that the trip would have to be called off. The lady was notified, and she was very disappointed. But the fates intervened, and soon I was scrambling to get everything packed-the trip was back on!"
"Saw the apartment she rented, and the place is great! She really did well, and proved my trust in her was well placed."
"Olga of course gave me a huge hug before she left, and told me to be ready for the next morning-it was going to be a busy day!
In summary, this was the best first date in the FSU I could have hoped for, other than the costs which I am sure is going to hamper things down the line a bit."
"Olga tried on several very sexy dresses, and I was to give my opinion on each. This lasted maybe ½ hour, and was probably the most enjoyable time I have ever spent in a woman’s clothing store."
"Now I wonder, is she out celebrating New Years in her new dress with her real boyfriend? This is the WORST New Years I ever had, and to speak honestly, right now I wish I had never come here."
"I feel like a prisoner here, and totally screwed. There is life on the streets now, and it looks like there is some kind of celebration going on at the square. It’s another foggy, misty, sunless day. It seems appropriate somehow, as it reflects my mood. How is it possible it could come to this? One day looks so full of promise, falling for a very beautiful and seemingly sweet woman, then the next to feel so hopeless?"
"Dam, it's so hard to think when looking at such a hot kova!"
"Really to sum it up, I can't for the life of me figure out what the deal is. She says all the right things, yet does not back them up by her actions. She tells me she wants me to be her husband, yet doesn't show the strong attachment or any romantic feelings, or even the desire to spend much time together."
"At the conclusion of this day, my patience I think has paid off, despite all the red flags and the signs to the contrary. I had thought I was being taken for a huge ride, but it wasn't so...
But I really think I found not only a great woman, but maybe the greatest find in all of Ukraine...All in all, I don't think I could have asked for a better day! "
"At this point I am at least 90% sure a marriage is in the future, so I hope that if it happns all will work out as hoped."
"I truly believe Olga is on the level, and that there will be a wonderful future together with her."
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It’s strange as I find myself agreeing with Don's post up-thread, while this thread is undoubtedly compelling reading it’s also horrible in the same breath,
Aww come on Bruce, I promise I won't let it go to my head!
Chris go out and date some ugly local girls, find some fat ones, skinny ones, pretty ones even white and dark ones. Date them young and old. Doing this will give you (hopefully) some idea what a real girl is like when they have some interest in you. You're as green as a Vancouver lawn and you need to have some cheap dates at home to get you diploma from the School of Smooth (couldn't resist)
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And yeah AvHdB, not surprised you would use other words - it took ages to find a working English/Nadsat translator!
Really Andrew - you still need a translator to be polite and understand others?
There is a book does not not cost to much and now considered a classic. Often called the "The Little Book" but in fact is the "Elements of Style" - you should read it. But I suspect you can not teach an old dog new tricks
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Only one serious relationship at age 35 tells you all you need to know.
enlighten me, please :smokin:
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First of all, where did I ever say the 'terp was responsible for every problem during this trip? I never said such a thing, and to anyone-starting with Andy back a few posts ago, who took liberties and wrote that she was, you are terribly mistaken. Read what I wrote, and be sure you understand before making silly comments or posting wrong information. It tends to proliferate, and wreaks havoc all over the thread.
Andrewfi, first, get your facts straight. Secondly, I see you for who you are. Just some pathetic mongrel waiting for the next victim to wander by so you can sink your slimy fangs in them, laughing while they writhe in pain. You grab onto some percieved omission or mislaid tidbit, and skew it to your own ends for the purpose of trying to make someone suffer. So do not ply your filthy game here, it won't work. I could spend the next half hour picking apart your lengthy post to expose all the wrong info and misleading data, but I will suffice to say that there isn't a correct word to be found and it isn't worth my time to once again expose a known sociopath.
Thanks Jeffery for the summation-you're correct, it was a wild ride for a while there, but has seemed to have smoothed out a lot towards the end of my visit.
To everyone else in the last several posts, I thank you for your concern, but please remember that I am taking my time, thinking with the big head, and keeping my eyes wide open. Don't make judgements about things you do not know all the facts of. You all were not in Lugansk, and I did not write all the details here, as a lot was very private and personal. Olga is not "broke", or "faulty"-nor is she defective in any significant way. On the contrary-she is probably one of the most "real" and down to earth women I have known. Just because she does not conform to some textbook definition of how a FSUW should act, or that she doesn't jump in the sack after a predetermined amount of time doesn't mean she isn't something really special.
I have learned a lot about her the past few days, and confirmed much of what I already believed. I had the great luck of finding someone else who married a woman just like Olga in her beliefs towards a relationship. I admit I had also misunderstood Olga at the beginning, but now I am very grateful and happy to have found someone so rare, someone who shares in my own beliefs. Olga was right-we are perfect for each other. The fact that she had little relationship experience was her choice, not because of her shortcomings. I actually find it charming, and like the fact I can show her how I like things, and not have to deal with bad relationship habbits, or all the tons of extra baggage that women have from multiple failed relationships in her past. In one way, she's a mature woman with compatable leife experience and responsibility, and in another she is like a young girl in love with the inexperience that goes with it. I have little to gripe about, yet a lot to admire in her determination. I admit I made mistakes about her, and she has done the same about me. It goes with the territory in any relationship. All in all, I think things ended up on a good note, and there is a lot of promise to be seen for a future together.
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On the contrary-she is probably one of the most "real" and down to earth women I have known.
I have to ask, and I'm being serious here; how can you say this when you don't share a common language and the vast majority of your communication was either via an interpreter (that was probably screwing you over for money) or an electronic translator (and trust me on this, although basic English to Russia is pretty good, the other way, usually, not so much)?
Be honest with yourself. In reality she is someone you barely know and what information you do have is somewhat suspect.
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Chris, you have documented how this woman chose an interpreter to act for both of you. The Kayta bird, chosen by Olga, allowed you to be rolled for a $400 taxi ride. Now, lets put that in perspective: $400 is (arguably) a months wage in that part of the world. It would be like someone coming to the US and being charged $2000 for a taxi ride. Would you choose a helper in the US that would charge your visitor $2000 for a cab ride? If it somehow happened - under your nose - you would dump your helper on the spot when you found out, yes? Why was Kayta not dumped on the spot when Olga found out you were rolled if she was not complicit? She was allowed to continue to skim money at every opportunity thereafter - not providing a receipt from the bank whilst short-changing you for example. Banks give receipts when they change money.
When you were kept prisoner alone in the flat over New Year, why do you imagine that Olga couldn't get a message and some keys to you? Normal taxis are quite cheap and those blokes will run errands. Why do you imagine that nobody thought to furnish you with a cheap local SIM card and an internet dongle beforehand even? I'm sure you would have sent the $30 ahead of time to facilitate that if the woman was poor.
Much in this tale doesn't stack up. Anyone can find reasons to justify bad behaviour after the event if they look hard enough. Squinting through the pink spectacles provides an explanation to many people. Likely your first gut instincts were correct - the ones rolling through your head while you were locked in that apartment for New Year.
Many men excuse bad behaviour because of the emotional investment they have put in. Too many men try to turn a bad situation around to avoid having to admit they made a bad call.
If it were me, when released from captivity in the afternoon of New Years day, I would have been straight out the door with my bags, on the phone to a local English speaking helper (there is one on this forum) and heading to another town buying a dongle and SIM card on the way. By that evening, I would expect to be holed up in a fresh hotel trying to think of a reason to tell Plan B why I just happened to be in town.
Good luck with whatever choices you make with this woman.
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For any newbies here there is a great deal of information to take in, but please don't be mistaken in thinking that this is the kind of FSUW behaviour you should expect or should have to tolerate!
Chris you have chosen to either ignore or make justifications for bad and dishonest behaviour and somehow managed to come up with a completely different conclusion to the majority of experienced guys here, and IMHO those offering support can only be sharing the same pair of rose tinted specs as those currently worn by yourself!! Contray to what you have posted about Andrew, nobody here wishes to see others fail but there is a point where an individual is such a rudderless ship that for the good of any future readers reality needs to be addressed and this is all the so called "negative posters" are doing on this topic!
Everything else here is obvious, so I officially give up on this one, there is only a set amount of time you can state the obvious and have it ignored or be insulted for delivering it!
Chris, good luck fella follow the path of your choice!!
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I paid $90 for private driver (better than a taxi) arranged through a 'friend of a friend' from Donetsk to Lugansk not so long ago.
A western facing site will charge a 'tourist rate' of $120. http://nikoflats.com/distance-from-lugansk-to-donetsk.html
This will hopefully tell Chris how much he got shafted for, the rest is blindingly obvious to all except one.
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Only one serious relationship at age 35 tells you all you need to know.
enlighten me, please :smokin:
The woman is, according to Chris, around 35 years old.
She has, according to Chris, had only one serious relationship with a man in her life and she has never been married.
From the evidence provided by Chris we can see that she is moderately attractive, even at 35.
Most people by the age of 35 have had more than one serious relationship in their lives - indeed most of us have been married and brewed sprogs by that time.
As a woman, I am sure that you'd look askance at a bloke of 35 who had only ever had one relationship with a woman - it is not that there is definitely something wrong, but to reach such an age, in this situation and for there to be no other issues that caused the lack of relationships would be a little/very unusual.
So, an attractive woman who has not been able to manage a long term stable relationship with a man as she enters her middle years is very likely to be that way for a reason and those reasons are not going to be good.
If one figures in the way that this woman has treated the man she now says she loves then one starts to understand just why there are not serious relationships. She mistreats those around her such that they stay away - or only hang around long enough to use her recreationally.
If this woman and/or her family could point at other relationships, even without marriage then the issues shrink away, but how many moderately attractive mis-30's women (or men) do you know who have not been able to support steady long term relationships do you know who are not emotionally disturbed?
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Chris, I have broad shoulders. You get a free pass this time. It will not continue. I understand there is a deal of emotional turmoil in your mind.
You need to keep your story straight. A few hours ago you typed this: As an update, I have made a realization that would explain a lot, if not most that has happened causing the big red flags.
You then went on to tell us of the nasty, nasty Katya.
Mate, if your idea of 'a lot' or 'most' is the piffling issues with money then you my friend have truly lost the plot. You are losing track of who you are defending.
If you choose to make Katya the scapegoat of your travails with Olga then stick with it. Don't then start bleating at us how we are misreading what you write. You are only making the point about Olga and her abuse of you more clear!
You presented your realisation about Katay as a catharsis, transforming and confirming your opinions about Olga. I and others merely questioned the validity of your new set of rationalisations. Your inconsistency should be ringing big warning bells in your head right now.
Get home, find somebody, anybody, preferably human and female, and go have sex - pay if you have to, it'll be money well spent.
Then start dating women locally, anyone who will spend time with you for a cup of coffee - just make sure she is female. Don't talk about this farrago with them - it'll scare them away or give them ideas, neither are good things. ;)
Understand what NOT being in an abusive relationship is like. Understand the small courtesies that we can expect from decent people. See, in context, what we have been trying to get through to you.
You can apologise later, it will be part of your recovery program. ;)
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I have written before about the idea that guys need to be 'match fit' before getting involved with women across the world who market themselves on foreign facing marriage sites.
I would be willing to have an imaginary bet with myself that Chris has no recent experience (apart from a failed marriage) against which to set this little farrago in context. So, he, like some others here, is willing to accept three impossible things before breakfast because they know no different.
After all, in my life, if I had spent time with women/a woman who stole from me lied to me and otherwise abused me, and that was all I knew, then yes, I'd say 'proceed with caution' or some other silliness. She abused Chris and that will not stop because that is how she lives her life with men. She is attractive enough to have had choices but local guys budet imetʹ trakhal yee zhestkoĭ and walked away. A foreigner is the last best hope - like putting a filling and painting a rusty old car before sale. An innocent abroad might well miss the trick, a knowledgeable buyer would not. Any man who can not talk directly to the target of his affections is an innocent abroad.
If anyone, including Chris can find a way to make this Olga woman innocent in respect of New Years Eve (and even better to blame it on the interpreter) that makes sense and fits the givens then I will have a deal of respect and be willing to say 'OK - maybe'. But we all know that it ain't gonna happen.
Chris WILL do his best to get this woman married but my guess is that she is actually incapable of doing so. SHE will walk away and Chris will blame himself.
She ain't a scammer, the interpreter might be, but Olga is broken.
Only one serious relationship at age 35 tells you all you need to know.
And yeah AvHdB, not surprised you would use other words - it took ages to find a working English/Nadsat translator!
Come on Andrew, is there really any need for such crudeness? Sometimes people need to experience things for themselves before they learn from them :biggrin:
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how many moderately attractive mis-30's women (or men) do you know who have not been able to support steady long term relationships do you know who are not emotionally disturbed?[/i]
Enouth indeed... :smokin:
Let define what serious relationship in your understanding mean...
I am afraid I’m twice broken then being married only once in my 48.
If I have a visitor who was never married but had few kids from previous relations, who had no home and sufficient stable income and just only very questionable tales about future perspectives … who was going to meet with one but in last minute changed his mind to another - I'd run into hills as fast as I can... oh yeah, I forgot that I’m twice broken :chuckle:
Sorry, Chris, u heard that from me so many times in chatroom... also I think ur Olga understood even half from ur talks ... Well, miracles happen :) and you will live happily ever after
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Come on Andrew, is there really any need for such crudeness?
Guess it took ages to find a working English/Nadsat translator for moderators too ;D
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Chris does not know it. He can translate easily enough if he chooses. I was kinda hoping he might.
Might we write that this woman has likely been the recipient of Cupids darts on many occasions from men who dallied at leisure with her before moving on to more congenial company?
And there is nothng wrong with recreational, low commitment sex, but if that is ALL that one can manage then I think there is a red flag flying.
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Millaa, no, you are not 'twice broken' the point being that you DO have a track record of managing ongoing relationships. Very different to a woman who can muster just one 'serious relationship' in her life. If it had been a long term thing and ended just before Chris came on the scene I think that we'd have knonw about it - but no, we (and Chris) got a real long explanation of why she has problems with men, going back to her childhood. :(
I think though that you understand what I am getting at here and yes, Chris does not come across as the catch of the century either, but it was she who made the choice to enable him to pitch woo - all he could do was ask her permission to go visit her. I guess that you'd have taken a different course and I fully understand why you would make that choice!
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It's strange as I find myself agreeing with Don's post up-thread, while this thread is undoubtedly compelling reading it's also horrible in the same breath,
Aww come on Bruce, I promise I won't let it go to my head!
Chris go out and date some ugly local girls, find some fat ones, skinny ones, pretty ones even white and dark ones. Date them young and old. Doing this will give you (hopefully) some idea what a real girl is like when they have some interest in you. You're as green as a Vancouver lawn and you need to have some cheap dates at home to get you diploma from the School of Smooth (couldn't resist)
I'd say this advice is spot on for anyone, not just Chris.
The old saying that you can't see the wood from the tree's springs to mind here. By dating a few women locally (for the sake of ease and :money:), it'll give you a benchmark on levels of respect, interest, courtesy and how it feels to be in the company of a woman who really wants you. I'm not saying your a bumbling fool but everyone needs a reminder to get up to speed again. Chris you may be right about your relationship with Olga, but her behaviour isn't normal. I'm personally not saying she's broken or a lost hope, but overly complicated yes - somethings a miss!
Now your home, find out her interest levels. Does she SMS you first (it'll cost her $ but if she's keen it won't matter), does she do little thoughtful things out of the blue, will she initiate conversation regarding the future, have the red flags stopped, or are you doing all the chasing still???
I also don't buy that she's only had one relationship. Maybe one significant relationship but I'd guess heaps of shorter less serious ones, we all have our needs for companionship and sex - it's normal. And it's my guess she's trying to paint you a pretty picture of a princess. Nice idea but a lie. Sometimes when you ask such questions about a girls past, she'll tell you things you maybe don't want to hear but at least you know she's honest. She may be telling the truth but even the most timid girls that are friends of mine who are in their 30's, have had 5+ relationships to speak of?
My gut instinct tells me that you've invested time, money and emotions in Olga and it seems better or somehow easier to try and navigate the minefield rather than set a new course. It's tough and I've been there but maybe only experience can tell you this and anonymous advise from a far is futile, irrespective of how useful it is.
I wish you luck in your adventure and i'm sure you'll eventually find what your looking for. Nobody knows how it'll turn out and our futures aren't predetermined, but just be honest with yourself before you make the next decision and I'm sure you'll be ok.
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Chris, best of luck in the pursuit of this lady.
Make no mistake I stand by my original post, you deserve better.
Couple of things I did notice that I would like to threw out there for discussion:
Chris I am not sure how the comment of the cosmetics being a bit expensive would have been perceived. Couple that with the fact that it is spelled out on the comments section of the utube video.....may not be the best practice.
My opinion of that matter would be either pony up and buy a limited amount of the more expensive product or not bring cosmetics at all. You stated that it was expensive....I am afraid the translation by lady may be,"I am not worth it to him". Kind of like going to a restaurant and complaining about the prices after you are seated or worse yet when you get the bill. These situations are easy enough to prevent with a little forethought.
If your lady is aware of this site...was she aware that you put up the utube video with her receiving the "cheaper" cosmetics. I don't know how happy she would be or how smart that was? If discovered she might well be totally pissed off from the embarrassment she may feel.
Second thought would be to question how fair it was to expect that this lady drop whatever plans she had for NYE considering you basically got flakey and made a last minute decision to jump on the plane. It's obvious she just went ahead with her plans and made no effort to alter her path regardless of your arrival.
What she did was wrong, period. You were a part of the problem and should own that. To your credit you do mention that you did make mistakes.
Take care and good luck.
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Andrewfi, first, get your facts straight. Secondly, I see you for who you are. Just some pathetic mongrel waiting for the next victim to wander by so you can sink your slimy fangs in them, laughing while they writhe in pain. You grab onto some percieved omission or mislaid tidbit, and skew it to your own ends for the purpose of trying to make someone suffer.
Aw, you give him too much credit.
Chris, take what helps you and that's it.
Between you and me, she sounds a little spoiled, that's all.
Enjoy.
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Andrewfi, first, get your facts straight. Secondly, I see you for who you are. Just some pathetic mongrel waiting for the next victim to wander by so you can sink your slimy fangs in them, laughing while they writhe in pain. You grab onto some percieved omission or mislaid tidbit, and skew it to your own ends for the purpose of trying to make someone suffer.
Aw, you give him too much credit.
Chris, take what helps you and that's it.
Between you and me, she sounds a little spoiled, that's all.
Enjoy.
Thanks, I needed that!
It's true that she seems a little spoiled, but she worked hard to get where she is in life as do most of us. So she wants a good family life too, and who can blame her? I want the same things, and so in this Olga and I are a perfect fit.
Today I did recieve a letter from her asking if I got home safe, and being apologetic for my long trip back. But she's already planning our future, and asking me my preferences in things. Now if only someone can shed some light on what an engagement party is all about?
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Between you and me, she sounds a little spoiled, that's all.
And a bit dishonest, disrespectful, red flag wavin, disinterested, frigid, and hit you daily with a 'get a clue bat' over the head until she finally gave up. The photo you posted does nothing to suggest she is even remotely interested in you. If that's the best you have to show us, I love to see the other pics! :chuckle:
Had she shown any interest in you she would of at least , never left you locked in your cage on new years eve. Held you hand in public. Kissed you, a peck on the cheek is a friendship kiss in the FSU (incase you didn't already know) Taken you to her workplace. Screwed your brains out or at the very least polished up your little helmut. Ohh I dunno... uhh, not rip you off on the taxi ride. Taken you to get a SIM card so she could keep track of you whereabouts. Yes they really do that! I guess she could be seen as compassionate, only because after putting you in the cage she did make sure you were fed and watered. :ROFL:
Chris good luck with the engagement, I know I won't be able to not read this TR after all. :'(
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Yep, pretty much the reaction I expected. :popcorn:
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Chris.... if this lady was local, all other attributes and interactions stay the same, would you be engaged to her already ? I'd like to think not because you would walked out for greener pastures after your New Years treatment. Look at all of the efforts you had to put in just to scratch the surface of finding out who she is... now you're about to take the big plunge with a woman who's biological clock is ticking away all the while having barely scratched the surface of who she is and still not holding the common ground of equal communication.
Most well informed and grounded male's search the eastern Euro regions for their soul mate, where as you have just settled for the first warm body who paid you attention, not attention with respect or attention with affection or attention with desire to learn more but simply you were given the bare minimum. Language could be a factor in the lack of quality attention paid to you but given the numerous stumbling blocks you have already encountered and the fact that you can't hold a mutually stimulating conversation, why would you through all caution to the wind and bet all of your money on one roll of the dice. When you search for a woman to be married to regardless of her origin, you should always be playing with the house's money, free to gamble when needed but with no loss to your own well being. Instead, you're doing the opposite.
I and I'm sure everyone here hopes you prove us wrong but there are too many stories of people in your situation who have ended up pockets inside out, heart in tatters, years older and back to square one but this time with baggage in hand. My own opinion, you're settling for the first bird who has given you affection in a long, long time and your too scared from your past of striking out to get out there and find someone bigger and better. I hope you prove me wrong, dead wrong but from everything you've listed and written, you've convinced yourself it's ok to settle and to fail and failure is seemingly right around the corner.
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engagement party is all about?
You're making me suspicious Chris. An "engagement" is rare, very rare, in that culture. Perhaps she is speaking of a betrothal arrangement. Go by yourself to a local Ukrainian jeweler and explain that you wish to purchase a matching wedding set with an engagement ring. Any jeweler will quickly show you 2-ring sets, one ring for each. Be sure to take your translator along because you're going to have to explain to him what an "engagement" ring is so that he can show you one. I'd bet that you'll have to hunt awhile to find a jeweler with a 3-ring set in stock. Local weddings just don't use them. It is a Western thing that we mistakenly think she expects.
Usually any arrangement with engagement overtones comes in the first 5-10 minutes of the Orthodox wedding ceremony in a church where the priest meets the bride and groom at the entry. It is the betrothal. There the families accompanying the couple are acknowledged and the couple exchanges wedding bands, their hands are bound by wedding towels, then priest gives them each a large lighted candle to hold during the remainder of the ceremony, and the attending couple balances crowns above their heads (but not yet touching). The priest then leads them to the front of the church near the altar and the "engagement" (betrothal) period which just begun minutes earlier is what allows the couple to participate in the wedding liturgy.
For couples that don't do a church ceremony this stage is generally a non-issue but sometimes a dinner with family is arranged once the plans for marriage have been announced. We did a family dinner announcing our pending marriage several months before our wedding. It was held at her home, with her most important local relatives. She, her Mom, a couple of cousins and an Aunt did the meal preparation--totally at their effort and expense.
I brought her, her Mom and the Aunt reasonable floral bouquets, nothing over the top. I brought a bottle of vodka for her Uncle who was standing in place of her departed father during our formal courtship period. I did surprise her with a stunning sequins studded dress of which she knew nothing prior nor had she requested or even hinted.
I did that knowing it was a risk--Slavic women generally usually don't like men not yet their husbands being a part of their wardrobe planning. It was worth the risk because I had courted her for over a year--locally and not long distance--and felt that I knew her well enough to make it work. It didn't hurt that my office assistant had input in the dress and its sizing once I made the decision to take the risk. But it was a risk and even my office assistant was torn, being concerned that it could send the wrong message, especially if the future Mrs M didn't like it.
And it is a risk in that environment, Chris. Men buying clothing or being present while they're trying on clothing is not that common there. I didn't say this earlier but to be honest my heart sank when in your trip report you described how one of the first stops was a dress shop where she modeled clothing. She hardly knew you. Just days before you were ready to call off the trip. I'd like to gloss over the dress shopping experience but frankly there is only one reason why you were present in that shop at that young stage in your relationship--you paid for the dresses.
If someone wishes for you to pay for a party, you should budget modestly, and if more is required, think hard about what is being asked. This is one of those times to ignore all the advice about not appearing to be "cheap." Our family dinner was semi-formal in the sense of food quality and table presentation, certainly not some picnic on paper plates, but it cost us mainly (except the surprise dress) little more than our time and extended family effort at food prep. Is she expecting you to return for this party or is it something being done in your absence?
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engagement party is all about?
You're making me suspicious Chris. An "engagement" is rare, very rare, in that culture. Perhaps she is speaking of a betrothal arrangement. Go by yourself to a local Ukrainian jeweler and explain that you wish to purchase a matching wedding set with an engagement ring. Any jeweler will quickly show you 2-ring sets, one ring for each. Be sure to take your translator along because you're going to have to explain to him what an "engagement" ring is so that he can show you one. I'd bet that you'll have to hunt awhile to find a jeweler with a 3-ring set in stock. Local weddings just don't use them. It is a Western thing that we mistakenly think she expects.
Usually any arrangement with engagement overtones comes in the first 5-10 minutes of the Orthodox wedding ceremony in a church where the priest meets the bride and groom at the entry. It is the betrothal. There the families accompanying the couple are acknowledged and the couple exchanges wedding bands, their hands are bound by wedding towels, then priest gives them each a large lighted candle to hold during the remainder of the ceremony, and the attending couple balances crowns above their heads (but not yet touching). The priest then leads them to the front of the church near the altar and the "engagement" (betrothal) period which just begun minutes earlier is what allows the couple to participate in the wedding liturgy.
For couples that don't do a church ceremony this stage is generally a non-issue but sometimes a dinner with family is arranged once the plans for marriage have been announced. We did a family dinner announcing our pending marriage several months before our wedding. It was held at her home, with her most important local relatives. She, her Mom, a couple of cousins and an Aunt did the meal preparation--totally at their effort and expense.
I showed up and surprised she, her Mom and the Aunt with reasonable floral bouquets, nothing over the top. I brought a bottle of vodka for her Uncle who was standing in place of her departed father. I did surprise her with a stunning sequins studded dress of which she knew nothing prior nor had she requested or even hinted.
I did that knowing it was a risk--Slavic women generally usually don't like men not yet their husbands being a part of their wardrobe planning. It was worth the risk because I had courted her for over a year--locally and not long distance--and felt that I knew her well enough to make it work. It didn't hurt that my office assistant had input in the dress and its sizing once I made the decision to take the risk. But it was a risk and even my office assistant was torn, being concerned that it could send the wrong message, especially if the future Mrs M didn't like it.
And it is a risk in that environment, Chris. Men buying clothing or being present while they're trying on clothing is not that common there. I didn't say this earlier but to be honest my heart sank when in your trip report you described how one of the first stops was a dress shop where she modeled clothing. She hardly knew you. Just days before you were ready to call off the trip. I'd like to gloss over the dress shopping experience but frankly there is only one reason why you were present in that shop at that young stage in your relationship--you paid for the dresses.
If someone wishes for you to pay for a party, you should budget modestly, and if more is required, think hard about what is being asked. This is one of those times to ignore all the advice about not appearing to be "cheap." Our family dinner was semi-formal in the sense of food quality and table presentation, certainly not some picnic on paper plates, but it cost us mainly (except the surprise dress) little more than our time and extended family effort at food prep. Is she expecting you to return for this party or is it something being done in your absence?
Perfectly explained.
Chris, I wouldn't just read this, I would read it over three times.
Engagement rings, parties, etc... is primarily a western tradition. I had to almost fight my other half for her to accept an engagement ring, not because she didn't want to marry me but because it simply wasn't apart of her culture or being to wear an engagement ring, let alone through a party. Drawing attention for an engagement via financial means be it a ring, gifts or a lavish party is usually bad attention.
We're pulling for you here although you may think otherwise but every time we think we've seen the last and biggest red flag, your relationship manages to unfold an even larger and deeper shade of red coloured flag.
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Yep, pretty much the reaction I expected. :popcorn:
That you're already talking of "engagements" speaks volumes. You are so far off the deep end you've lost sight of land.
Good luck dude, you're going to need more than you could possibly realize.
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Mendy, thanks for the great info! But I think I need to backtrack here and explain a few things.
What is referred to here as an engagement ring is nothing more than a simple "promise" ring that she intends to wear on her wedding finger to show publicly that she is spoken for and soon to be married. I did go to a jewler there and look, and found some good appropriate rings the jewler suggested, of which none were very expensive at all. I think the most expensive one came in at about $300 because it actually had a small diamond in it in the Western style. All the rest were gold bands with some decoration or design.
Olga's sister Inna had explained to me about how once I gave Olga the ring, she would arrange something for family at her place to celebrate. I can only assume that this must be the "engagement party", where the engagement is announcet to the rest of the family, and maybe close friends. Of course I will be sure to ask and make sure. What I had been asking is if anyone had any experience in this type of thing, and what my part in it would entail-like would I bring flowers for Inna? Bring vodka for Inna's husband? Some gift for the house, or for Olga? What would be my responsibilities? Just trying to learn here so I don't make any offense.
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Hi ChrisE, I wish you good luck and success in your endeavor. It seems to me that you were determined from almost the first moment that you set eyes on Olga to make this "work". As you point out you are the only person to have meet her.
Many of us have repeated in different styles and ways that your endeavor is filled with dangers and pitfalls based on what we have read. It is your stone that you need to get up your mountain. Whether you will stronger or weaker time will tell. But if you wish to take the attitude damn the torpedoes full speed ahead please do not expect much sympathy here, if this venture goes south.
If when you return to Lugansk for myself feel free to ask for advice or support on the logistical side I suspect you will get constructive suggestions. Who knows maybe we will meet there. Out of curiosity have you made arrangements to get Olga up to speed with the English language?
Kindly, AvHdB
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Chris thanks for the explanation of the promise ring! My ukrainian wife as well as all others who are married to Ukrainian ladies learned something new today. :ROFL:
OK one more time, according to Ukraine tradition there is only one ring wore on the wedding finger. If you are talking about Western tradition then you know the answers. So what is your traditional family suggesting?
Chris what hand was she going to place this "promise" ring?
Save yourself some trouble and just get a lawyer who covers both K1 and divorce. This is going to play out as a GCG or she will milk you once she wears her promise ring. :popcorn:
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Now if only someone can shed some light on what an engagement party is all about?
This is where I'd tell you HOLD IT.
Me thinks you need to spend a wee little more time getting to know her. Maybe one more trip to see how things are. You don't have to be afraid she'll dump you if you take your time because if she dumps you, that would be the best gift she would ever give you.
Chris, I'm serious.
I've been supportive of you so far because everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. Now it is her turn.
And then again, you can do whatever you please, you are an adult. This is just plain advice.
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I’m looking forward to learning soon about a ‘promise’ iPhone, Samsung Galaxy Note and a Louis Vuitton handbag …. :reading:
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I’m looking forward to learning soon about a ‘promise’ iPhone, Samsung Galaxy Note and a Louis Vuitton handbag …. :reading:
Now, now Vin. Don't get too far ahead of yourself.
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Chris, everyone here has told you more than a few times to ( run Forest run) Some did it polite, some not so much!
Many have said at the very least go slower learn more. It seems you are like that snow ball at the top of the hill.
The bigger it gets the faster you go, remember its not pretty when it hits bottom.
As said above, why are you in a rip roaring hurry? At best there so much you don't know, finding out after marriage
is not fun. We all pay for our mistakes, but there not cheap nor easy and as you get older, wasting that much time and money is not fun any more!!!!
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I never heard of a promise ring over there and I thought on this side of the pond it was something you do when 17?
But they are learning about diamonds fast :chuckle:
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In Chris's defence, we've been talking about something similar.
Hopefully at the end of this month my girl comes to me for a week or so, Visa dependant, and assuming everything is still perfect between us, we're looking at the possibilities of marriage and starting a new life together. It would probably be done on a fiancé visa and small wedding in the UK, with a ceremony somewhere exotic for close family and friends at a later date. At least this is what we would like.
However, once she's here a decision on marriage will be made at the time and I've suggested an engagement ring as a symbol that she's spoken for, but also her parents would likely disapprove of her abandoning her studies and leaving the country to live with a foreign man before A) she has a ring and B) they meet me. We thought engagement ring on the right hand whilst she's in Belarus and then a wedding ring on the left when she's living here?!
She's not Ukrainian but I can see Chris's angle on this one. tiphat
The rest of his thought process I'm not so sure about.
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Chris, there is no such thing as a "promise ring" in Slavic tradition either.
If a local jeweler told you there way, then he must have been part of the translator's evil scheme, too. BTW, what dress size was the translator?
She has learned quite a bit about Western traditions I can see. Hey, it is a nifty way of getting some stylish jewelry from a guy who has already given her some very sexy clothing. I'm sure that with the dresses, jewelry and cosmetics she'll become quite the attractive catch locally--while you are far, far away.
There certainly is no "announcement" party at which the groom isn't present. Look at it this way--you would be helping the local economy and the local dating scene at the same time.
Chris, you're a nice guy. As Muzh says SLOW DOWN! Now let's find you a nice gal who isn't planning parties in your absence. :)
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One and all,
ChrisE is a nice guy, in my opinion, perhaps a bit naive. Other will have different opinions and thoughts.
He has made up his mind and all we can do is watch and if there are pieces try to pick them up. There are no degrees or certificates needed to get married. Come hell or high water this is what ChrisE is going to do. Such is life.
There are more than a few of us who think STOP or Run Forest Run. But ChrisE has determined what HE thinks best - so be it.
Lets stop harping and moaning - we are beginning to sound like a bunch of babushka's.
AvHdB
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First Mendy, there will not be anything going on without me being there, and she will not be getting anything until we are together permanently. As for the tradition of a "promise ring", I don't know about it not being slavic, but the jewler sure seemed to think it was popular, and had a wide selection to choose from. Maybe it's just a Lugansk thing? I have noticed while there, Lugansk is not like the other cities I have been to in many ways. I just got the impression that because of location, they seemed a bit isolated from the rest of the country, and do some things differently. So maybe it's just a local thing? I expect to have many more answers by this weekend.
Secondly, I need to set the record straight here. She is in no way a GCG, and she will not have to pick up English as much as I will have to learn Russian because it has been decided to make our life in Lugansk-she is NOT coming to the US.
Also, even with the language barrier, we can and have sat down to some serious talks without an interpreter in between. With her limited English, my little bit of Russian, and some help from a translator program, we do make conversation very well. It's slow, I admit-but we are patient and are getting better. We both have been learning new words in each language, and have been meeting in the middle.
One and all,
ChrisE is a nice guy, in my opinion, perhaps a bit naive. Other will have different opinions and thoughts.
He has made up his mind and all we can do is watch and if there are pieces try to pick them up. There are no degrees or certificates needed to get married. Come hell or high water this is what ChrisE is going to do. Such is life.
There are more than a few of us who think STOP or Run Forest Run. But ChrisE has determined what HE thinks best - so be it.
Lets stop harping and moaning - we are beginning to sound like a bunch of babushka's.
AvHdB
Thatis too funny! But true, I am making plans though not anything I can't get out of yet. I am playing things by ear, keeping my eyes very much open, and my wallet closed. Yes, I am stubborn as hell, and very determined. If I wasn't, I would never have even considered looking to the FSU for a wife. I think it's very much a trait we all share-we have to be very much Alpha and probably a bit crazy to take such risks in life. But we weigh out options, and just try to make the best judgements with the information we have. Most of us do not have the luxury of spending many months or even years dating a woman before making her a wife as we could do with a local lady. It's inherantly a risky venture, but one we all take because the reward, if successful, is like winning the lottery.
I do very much appreciate the information, but the harping is getting a bit annoying. I know everyone's views and diuspleasure at my choices, but I truly think I am making the right decision. I do have a lot more information than is here in the TR that I base my choices on, so I only ask that you all please respect this. If things go south, I will only have myself to blame. But I do really think I can pull this one through, and have a very happy life. If I didn't, I wouldn't be making this effort.
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Chris,
If i didnt know you in person i would be convinced all events in this thread came from the mind of a so called 'internet troll'.
(someone feeding us with ludicrious information with the intention of getting us worked up).
After the "engagement party" (there ARE no engagement parties and if there were it wouldnt be held without you being present! But youre buying a $300 ring?) addition to this whole thing i lost all hope for you 'coming to your senses' once back in your own country.
For the stuff prior to that i was 'forgiving' since i could somehow understand what you could be going through.. But what happened man? Snap out of it.
Youre a smart guy, you input comments and conversations we had prior to this made a LOT of sense (and that is rare around here).
If you were really confident about your decision you wouldnt be posting here anymore: because theres virtually no positive feedback coming your way. You seem to be punishing yourself or some form of massochism?
If im still able to be there by then: come to me in Odessa in spring or summer, ill pay for your accomodation, and give me 2 weeks.. i will show you what options are available for a guy like you.
This thread resembles a Russian Bride Parody.
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Christian, when you plan to be back, i could be there in spring, I will drop by and have :BEER:
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Chris, while you were in Lugansk did you meet anyone with the family name Baranov/Baranova?
For those who have long memories you may recall the famous Olga Baranova of Lugansk.
For those who do not go back to 1999/2002 this woman ran a string of girls who she pimped out as candidates for marriage to men like Chris.
Among other things she introduced the idea of the engagement and engagement party and was never short of either engagement rings or a jeweler ready to sell these items of traditional importance in the region.
She also used to charge a success fee after the engagement ring was placed upon the girl's finger.
Google the name Baranova and Lugansk (also, IIRC Chernevitsy)
On a related topic. Chris what are you running away from?Why is it so important that you leave behind everything in the US on this flimsy and tawdry excuse?
If leaving the US is so important then take up the offer you have been given, stay for a while and get acclimated. You will soon understand what is going wrong for you and maybe understand jsut how hard it is to live outside the bubble in whoch you have been inserted.
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OK, just read this thread.
Lugansk is a hardcore "working class" town. I doubt there is any local tradition of betrothal rings.
Nobody works on New Year's Eve in Ukraine. I can guarantee you, having tried to phone Kiev on New Year's Eve for years, that even the phone lines go down at noon local time. In fact, most things function on holiday hours in Ukraine until January 10. A store would've closed early, if it were open at all. I also did a search of some of the Lugansk newspapers and a google search for a store looting - that would, actually, be news in most of Ukraine, and I found nothing, zip, though I didn't go through archived articles. That is a red flag.
Taking you out to buy a New Year's dress is a red flag.
Unless I missed something, you were never in Olga's apartment. That is a red flag.
The fact she would not hold your hand in public is a red flag.
Meeting her sister in a restaurant (where you footed the bill) is very unusual for someone who is considered a guest, let alone a potential husband. Most decent Ukrainians would have prepared a meal for you, usually elaborate, as an honoured guest. To put it in perspective, my relatives, when they meet me in Kiev (taking an overnight train from past L'viv, and they have to take a bus more than 30 km to the train station), carry kilos of homemade food for us all that way. My Ukrainian born better half would view anyone who took him to a restaurant as "show offs", and if he were to foot the bill, they'd be categorized as "leeches". This is a big red flag.
It appears Olga prepared kutia (a traditional Christmas dish) - I don't find cooking for January 6/7 a red flag, it's a huge holiday with traditional foods, but the if you did not have that traditional dinner with her and her family on one of the three biggest holidays in Ukraine (New Year's, Christmas and Easter are the three) that again is a huge red flag, one the size of Independence Square.
An "old fashioned" Ukrainian girl raised with "traditional values" would've been married by age 20. The more traditional the girl in Ukraine, in general, the younger she marries and has children. I am not suggesting a lack of marriage is necessarily a negative, just that it doesn't fit with being "traditional". An "old fashioned" girl would also not be asking for a ring.
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I will have to learn Russian because it has been decided to make our life in Lugansk-she is NOT coming to the US.
Whose idea was this? Why would you want to live in Lugansk? I apologize if I will come across as very cynical, but I just can't understand why men have these "let's go live in the FSU" fantasies.
Don't you have a job in your home country? Realistically, your chances of finding something similar in Ukraine are somewhere between zero and none.
What is it about your life that you do not like in your own country? I have to say that I like living in Canada. I have good infrastructure, I have a good society, I have a job that I like, and my wife loves the quality of life that we have. This latter has nothing to do with money, but the simple things in life: trails that will have decent outhouses with paper toilet, and a host of other small things that make life much simple and more enjoyable in Canada. Do we like to visit? Sure. Do we want to live there for the rest of our lives: no.
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Although Chris is on a one way street, there are many others reading this topic. Most of whom are not members yet. For the benefit of the passing reader, I will point out that Chris, as a friendly and valued member here, has had the input from almost all of the sharpest of our membership; the people who have been there and have the t-shirt. A few even chimed in who had "left" the site already (as is the nature of forums - people come and go, and folks occasionally fall out, but on interesting topics many 'reappear' - and we welcome that!).
I am very proud that our forum can offer so much collective member experience. The people who have contributed here have literally hundreds of years experience between them. Very unusually, most have said the same thing - albeit, delivered in different ways. I think our members have done Chris proud.
As is often the way with guys, we listen to advice, and then choose our own path - which may be markedly different. Even if we crash and burn, we get points for trying don't we? :innocent: So many guys never even step on an airplane. Chris did. He went out there with the intent of making it happen - as we all do/did.
He has chosen to see how it works out in the hope he can pull a rabbit from the hat. We wish him success in that, and will surely admit we were wrong if he manages it. What I don't want us to do is create a situation where we say its 'our way of the highway'. If this does crash and burn, I hope Chris will stick around so we can celebrate with him when it works out better next time. Later on, he may say, "yes, you guys were right". Later, his experience will help others. I would like us to accept the choices he makes and support him however he decides to progress. We can only offer advice - what he actually does is up to him.
Remember, we are reading this tale through Chris's perception. Much of what he told us came through translation from a second woman (Katya) who is clearly corrupt and 'greedy' (in the Russian sense). If we heard this TR from Olga's side, it may read quite different. She may well say he was 'greedy' for asking her what cosmetics she wanted, him deeming them too expensive (eek!), and bringing her a TK Maxx mixed set instead. My wife is following this one, and did this: (:) at the make up bit. Her comment was, "Why did he ask her what she wanted if he couldn't afford - or wouldn't spend - her reply?" There are a few points through this tale where I asked my wife what she thought, and she said, "Hmmm...... I would need to ask Olga and hear her side of that - in Russian. I really don't know." There is a difference between translation and interpretation!
Some of this is lack of planning. Why did Chris not have his own helper/translator on hand there? Why did he not arrange internet/cell phone ahead of time? Why did he accept being locked in an apartment? All that could have been averted with the five P's: Perfect Planning Prevents Pathetic Performance.
I grant you, that based on what we have read, most of us would have bailed New Years Day when released from captivity.
If I were Chris, right here, right now, and with his mindset, I would hire an independent interpreter to host a three-way call to get to the bottom of some of this stuff. $100? $200? Whatever - solve the problem. Get answers. Messing about with software translation and speculating here is doing him no favours.
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Manny, thanks for the great feedback. I think you summed things up pretty well in respect to what happened.
Just to set a couple minor things straight-I never told Olga the cosmetics she wanted were too expensive, I just said I basically had sticker shock. Ans it's not that I wouldn't get them, but what she specified was not to be found locally. I would have had to special order the stuff, and it wasn't going to happen in the given timeframe.
I fully agree that there are a lot of things lost in translation. I'm taking my time to verify everything that is questionable so not to make errors if possible. But even those who speak the same language don't always get the facts straight when communicating-so much is perception and interpretation of what is said. But Olga and I do manage, and if we are to have a future, will need to make it work on our own. But even to get my points across here on the forum, with my thoughts and feelings, it is very difficult and find I have to set the record straight quite often.
I know most here think I am probably headed for a train wreck, but those who know me personally also know I have little to lose and everything to gain. I really hope I can "pull the rabbit out of the hat" so to speak, and prove most commenters here wrong so I can live a happy fulfilling life. If not, what the hell-at least I can say I tried, and had fun doing it. I do take consolation in the fact that there is one member I had the blessing to discuss my situaion with. He's happily married, and my story and situations could almost substitute for his as both our ladies are almost identical in nature. So I now know Olga isn't unique, or putting on a show as there are other women in Ukraine with the same system of beliefs, traditions, etc. who really are legitimate and honorable in their intentions.
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Nobody works on New Year's Eve in Ukraine.
In Russia many are... This NewYear Eve I had no problems to buy champagne and gifts at nearest shop at 22.00 ... Nobody work at January 1 - yes. Shops open on 3-4 as usual, closed 7, so nothing strange if she had to work this days...
Unless I missed something, you were never in Olga's apartment. That is a red flag.
Not at all if she lives with her sister family in the squalid hruschevka in margin district.
The fact she would not hold your hand in public is a red flag.
I hate all this hand holdings even being married.
Meeting her sister in a restaurant (where you footed the bill) is very unusual for someone who is considered a guest, let alone a potential husband.
Many do here - well, the bill is payed by both sides.
An "old fashioned" Ukrainian girl raised with "traditional values" would've been married by age 20.
Many people dont marry just because they have no place to live... I guess - it is just Olgas case.
An "old fashioned" girl would also not be asking for a ring.
The girl may see too many holywood movies ;D
I do believe in NewYearEve story - it might happen... but why Chris didnt go to her shop to confirm her story? Its strange... If all writenn is not just authors fantasies, he is her back up plan, in case someone with more money does not come along. Seems I'm the only one who sympathetic Olga not Chris :biggrin:
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Millaa, all the stuff about open/closed, is tradition/not tradition is not too important. Marriage, well, kinda. One important reason people got married young, as you recall, was in order to get onto waiting lists for one's own apartment. This woman is about 35 and so, by then, apartments were pretty much privatised but habits change less fast.
Nowadays it is not unusual at all for women to not get married until their late 20's but when this woman was growing up and at this time marriage in early 20's was the norm. Ten/twelve years ago when I was a student working with young Russian women in their teens and early 20's we talked of the social pressure they felt to get married and these women were the brightest and best of their generation, no NEED in them to get married but real pressure from families and relations as well as friends already married.
Chris could not (as he told us) go to the shop because he did not know where it was. If I were daft enough to have let myself be in his situation, even if I knew where the shop was, I'd only go there if I had already arranged alternative accommodation (hard without a phone or language) because otherwise I'd be stuck, unable to return, if my darling was NOT where she said she'd be.
In his case he was a mental as much as physical prisoner. He could leave, but where would he go with no language, communication, local knowledge. The woman I am sure KNEW what she was doing. After all she had a mobile phone, a friend/accomplice/interpreter and could have got him sorted with a message and company. She did whatever and then when she was rested from her exertions and had had a good day's sleep she deigned to visit him. No matter what happened this was unconscionable. Chris's rationalizations just show how disturbed he has become - please don't him by minimising the issue.
More generally, whilst I am with Manny on the 'let him crash dive the burning plane' as education meme; however, having read Chris's latest about having nothing to lose I find myself wondering what is so wrong with Chris or his life that he is willing to give up everything he has and run away.
I have done something like he is proposing and the outcome has been great BUT I went with money, purpose, support, a safety net and absolutely knowing that I had a place and life to go back to.
It was still very, very hard and I was not going to the arsehole of the armpit of Ukraine to be with a woman who has demonstrated dishonesty, lack of respect, lack of affection and who offers him nothing positive other than the excuse for an escape and later the role of scapegoat when it goes titsup.
Chris, whatever you do you should not run AWAY from stuff ('I have nothing to lose') but rather run TO stuff.
Meantime go get your bumps felt - is your former(?) employer still enabling any medical cover? Go and get some therapy, some help to understand what is motivating these odd behaviours.
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... Until next time, I'll leave this post with a final happy photo.
I hate to break it to you Chris, but the woman next to you in that photo is not 35 years old.
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More generally, whilst I am with Manny on the 'let him crash dive the burning plane' as education meme; however, having read Chris's latest about having nothing to lose I find myself wondering what is so wrong with Chris or his life that he is willing to give up everything he has and run away.
Andrew, I see you picked up on that too. It's like that woman from Australia and her Nigerian fiancee. The problem I see is that he may be at the same stage as the Australian woman AFTER she was confronted with the truth: trying one more time.
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... Until next time, I'll leave this post with a final happy photo.
I hate to break it to you Chris, but the woman next to you in that photo is not 35 years old.
She certainly is not younger. ;) but I am sure Chris will have checked her ID and he told us her age. But that is not a happy woman.
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... Until next time, I'll leave this post with a final happy photo.
I hate to break it to you Chris, but the woman next to you in that photo is not 35 years old.
She looks younger to me, but tell us what you know and how you know it.
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hmmm has he met her? or spoke to her? or seen profile with different info?
Inquiring minds need to know ???
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... Until next time, I'll leave this post with a final happy photo.
I hate to break it to you Chris, but the woman next to you in that photo is not 35 years old.
She certainly is not younger. ;) but I am sure Chris will have checked her ID and he told us her age. But that is not a happy woman.
I could believe she is 35. Actually they almost look like they could be brother and sister. Same nose, same chin, similar mouth and more. I think they make a nice couple and look perfect together.
So Chris, did you check out her ID to make sure she wasn't lying about her age, Did you also take one of those little round mirror thingys and check out her teeth, maybe do a full body scan for warts, get a criminal background check since there won't be one done for a K-1, maybe check and make sure she doens't have athlete's foot. :smokin:
Chris, I agree that you were there and have a better feel for what the two of you really had and I am sure you have not shared everything here (which is wise). I do think the people here have a lot of experience and have been through a lot that let them learn things the hard way and want to share that so others can learn from their mistakes without having to make them. I also think you need to do what you feel is right and although you should consider the warning signs that many of us have seen, in the end it is your life and you have every right to find happiness or to fluck it up. I can' t agree that you have nothing to lose but it is your life.
A lot of your story reminds me of my first fiancee. Even though there were red flags I needed to see that through and I can understand that you feel the same. I do hope your results are better than mine were in that case. I do wish you the best and hope it works out for you. You seem happy with her and I hope you find your dream.
I have often heard that when a RW is into you that you will know it. Only you know for sure if she was into you. I hope she was and I hope she turns out the be the right woman for you.
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... Until next time, I'll leave this post with a final happy photo.
I hate to break it to you Chris, but the woman next to you in that photo is not 35 years old.
We are talking about this image (http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0151.jpg) for those who don't want to scroll back and hunt.
Jeffrey, what are your thoughts? I see what you are getting at; everyone exhibits age differently depending on their genetic. You are likely thinking fortyish?
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We are talking about this image (http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/Chris_Elfert/Lugansk/IMAG0151.jpg) for those who don't want to scroll back and hunt.
Jeffrey, what are your thoughts? I see what you are getting at; everyone exhibits age differently depending on their genetic. You are likely thinking fortyish?
Yes that's right I am thinking fortyish. I can usually guess a person's age to within a couple of years.
Before I posted I wanted to make sure my 35-ish age detector was primed, so I visited a couple of dating sites and plugged in a search for 35 year old women.
Then I checked Chris's photo again.
Chris, I'm still hoping for the best for you.
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Yes that's right I am thinking fortyish.
;D what else do you put into the question? This girl cant be fortyish... dont compare photo just taken and photoshoped ones from dating sites ;D
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Yes that's right I am thinking fortyish.
;D what else do you put into the question? This girl cant be fortyish... dont compare photo just taken and photoshoped ones from dating sites ;D
+1 :chuckle:
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Yes that's right I am thinking fortyish. I can usually guess a person's age to within a couple of years.
If I was a betting man, and she was a British lady, and someone showed me that photo, I would lay £10 she is 40/41 rather than 35. But then again, life can be hard in these countries and women can sometimes look a little older than they are - whilst remaining slim and attractive.
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Jeffrey, what are your thoughts? I see what you are getting at; everyone exhibits age differently depending on their genetic. You are likely thinking fortyish?
She looked younger to me in the Youtube video, but I am a poor judge of such things.
I would assume that Chris knows her exact age unless Jeffrey has some kind of evidence
to the contrary.
(http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx257/ruadventures/younger.jpg)
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The thing that struck me about the pic (apart from the fact that she did not look as happy as Chris would like to think she was) was how much makeup was used to give the effect you saw.
She has thin lips, enlarged by lipstick. Some folks have thin lips naturally but they get thinner with age on all women.
Her cheeks have folds around the lower parts, from her nose.
She has eyebrows that seem to exist only in painted form.
Her general demeanour is of a woman older than 35. But this is just one picture and for sure Chris will have seen her ID.
Based upon my experience I'd have said a decently kept woman in her early 40's. If she is 35 she has had a hard, hard life.
If you want to get a feel for what I am getting on about look at Mamba.ru - not the MOB sites. If I saw that pic in there with an age marked of 35 then I'd be thinking she was being 'generous' in her description of herself.
Video means little frankly, definition is low and, particularly for Americans, her skinniness is going to make her look more youthful. Easy to mistake mum for daughter in video, less so in photos.
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Another one for you Andrew: i think she dyes her hair... yeah really!!!
Its not really relevant: on the pic she indeed looks 40+. The video however she looks younger. I give it 50/50 she lies about her age.. but thats pocketchangeproblems compared to the other things.
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One and all,
I showed the video and foto to Miss Cappuccino. She thought she recognized some of the background. Her statement "that is a couple?" She also said there is no real cafe or club to go visit.
About the age she said between 31 and 36 years old.
Regarding rings and an engagement ring (diamond) yes they are given in Lugansk.
Regarding moving and working in Lugansk, "wow, really crazy"
AvHdB
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Yes Chris, bring the flowers and wodka and that is enough.
The others here are being rude and crude, probably more so because they couldn't get you to run before. The woman is still a babe and to me looks very 35ish. It is clear to me that she takes care of her skin. Mine is about the same in looks and age.
I did and do believe you were not treated at all well but also know that not every person or relationship starts out perfect or the same as all others. You had a crooked interpreter who may well have had a hand in everything that went wrong and there is much you have not said so nobody has a perfect picture either. There are also other possible factors that could play into this like the status of her family, her education and previous relationships.
My relationship started in 2006. It was a month before first kiss and three months before home base. About 5 months ago we decided to get married sometime in the next year or so and that is only a small part of the story. Not all relationships go the same.
Living there is a challenge financially and can cost you $1000 a month pretty easily depending on if you go with the nice apartment that you are probably expected to rent, the higher quality food you are expected to eat and the vacations you will take not to mention that cosmetics and treatments these women love can break the bank. I was one to take the "live there" step as you are though the economy has forced me to return to the US for long stretches of time these last two years.
No, there is no engagement ring but many women know that we have one so do they go with none or one when given the opportunity to choose cultures? I have known some to refuse the ring and others to ask for it. Mine asked but refused anything expensive also.
My main concern is still communication. There are so many things that RW take for granted and often it is financial. Then all it takes is one word with different meanings and you have huge misunderstandings that come back later big time. Tell the woman you feel great sympathy for her and go look up the full definition just so you know that words often have different meanings. You would be wise to have a deep conversation with a friendly interpreter if only to find out if there are any misunderstandings or assumptions.
You might also think about going slow with the marriage part seeing as you have the time if you live there. If she wants the engagement ring then she can also go with the traditional engagement time. 6 months should give you a good picture. Prepare yourself in the future so that you are not totally dependent on her. You will feel better about the situation and she will think of you better. Your prep this time around really sucked.
And for the rest of you. :P
Scott
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Guys, your mom never tell you other's appearance discussion is a moveton? :smokin:
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For the new guys that don't know (and not to enable Chris in any way), it's extremely common for FSU people not to smile in pictures. I've seen group shots of family reunions and parties where it looks more like the participants are at a funeral or in front of a firing squad rather than a camera. It can look a little bizarre and out of context for us in the West used to the insane grins of happy photos. But I've been assured that the people in them are really happy and in some cases are overwhelmed because they haven't seen each other for years, but you'd never guess from the pictures.
If I were to use a photo to try to determine how someone felt, I would look to the body language rather than the smile but even that can be a little stiff in a staged picture. It's more a case of, if it looks positive it's a good thing but the opposite is not necessarily a negative, it really depends on how the people acted in the flesh.
In this case, it's hard to tell and to paraphrase my wife, "you know how FSU people look in pictures sometimes". FWIW.
Her age? Really, you guys can tell? And that is from guys, the vast majority of which, look 10 years younger than they really are, right? :chuckle:
The more telling thing in the Olga/Chris affair is how she treated him during his stay.
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It was a month before first kiss and three months before home base. About 5 months ago we decided to get married sometime in the next year or so and that is only a small part of the story. Not all relationships go the same.
Congratulations on the marriage.
The issue was not lack of physical contact, but that she held his hand until they hit the street. Not a good sign, unless she didn't want others to know she was meeting a foreigner (which is very possible).
I agree, the comment on her age was rude. Moreover, I don't think anyone can tell a person's age from a photo. People can look very different in photos, based on how they hold themselves. Many women wear a lot of make up, and FSUW have a particular "style" when they wear make up. This lady has lovely features, and even if she were 40, so what? Beauty fades, so marry someone who is interesting, kind, and loves you. The comments were extremely superficial, but something I've come to expect from reading these forums.
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I never told Olga the cosmetics she wanted were too expensive, I just said I basically had sticker shock. Ans it's not that I wouldn't get them, but what she specified was not to be found locally. I would have had to special order the stuff, and it wasn't going to happen in the given time frame.
That maybe should have just been done better. In everyone there is a type of gift giver and a type of receiver. Women receive very well. The older they get the more they do the masks and special treatments and they seem to know exactly the best makeups and designer names even if they cannot afford these things. So if she is good into makeup and you cannot in any way do this in time then go find a woman who can connect you with one of the best brands and it might work. The generics are almost an insult to cosmetics. But never try this with perfume.
And you can bet on sticker shock. It does go a very long way usually if they manage it well. It is probably the gift of choice for someone like her and not a bad one if she wants to take good care of her looks. Ask her about masks and creams.
I fully agree that there are a lot of things lost in translation. I'm taking my time to verify everything that is questionable so not to make errors if possible. But even those who speak the same language don't always get the facts straight when communicating-so much is perception and interpretation of what is said. But Olga and I do manage, and if we are to have a future, will need to make it work on our own. But even to get my points across here on the forum, with my thoughts and feelings, it is very difficult and find I have to set the record straight quite often.
The most often misunderstood is something right in front of her face. It can be a word in your first letter that changes a sentence meaning and gets stuck in her mind as fact for half a year. I first tried using a dictionary, spending hours to write a paragraph that would make no sense. It was romantic but still failed, admirably. The electronic el taco handheld thingy had a voice that few people seemed to understand and was not romantic. The Prompt software translator was much better though it was often better for a good laugh or at worst for a near slap and most often because of the one word with three meanings in each sentence. I know these things bring two people together but I want to ask just how much information can you cover the way you are going and are you really willing to take so important a task on in such a way? A good interpreter is not all that expensive and a good one will understand exactly what you are saying and you really can block your mind to the privacy thing by just looking at your lady and speaking. Forget about the terp.
Some women know everything about the US and us and some have no clue at all. You never know what simple thing is in their mind that is not worth questioning for them. For example, long ago a newlywed woman wanted to learn English at a University. The man had sticker shock and he had thought she would just go to a simple ESL type class but to some RW the University is where you go and anything less can be crap. She assumed that this would be just normal and when she found that it was way out of their price range she pretty much flipped. This was part of her American dream and she assumed the man could afford it. They never spoke about where she would go, just that she would learn.
You can go on the way you are now but eventually you will get tired of the pace. Eventually a mistake will be made or an assumption destroyed. You have lots of time to learn each other but a good strong foundation of knowledge can strengthen and move things ahead.
I know most here think I am probably headed for a train wreck, but those who know me personally also know I have little to lose and everything to gain. I really hope I can "pull the rabbit out of the hat" so to speak, and prove most commenters here wrong so I can live a happy fulfilling life. If not, what the hell-at least I can say I tried, and had fun doing it.
Wrong attitude. DO have fun and learn while you do but see yourself in a new way. This is not a one time thing. In America it might be a once in a lifetime thing but in Russia it can be the norm for you. There are a thousand other women behind her of all types and they will all date you. 30 years from now you will still get dates there with the devs. Some of them will be pure heaven for you and others can be pure hell.
Screw the people here. They may be correct but sometimes a failure is good for you. Just keep your balance. Keep your wits. Prepare and plan ahead for all things and take charge. Know your backup plans. Know where you can move and stay on a moments notice. Do not accept less than the best in women because the best is out there. Give your best because there you are a new man.
Scott
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Congratulations on the marriage.
Don't corner me just yet. I said in the next year or so.
The issue was not lack of physical contact, but that she held his hand until they hit the street. Not a good sign, unless she didn't want others to know she was meeting a foreigner (which is very possible).
I also did not think it a good thing. I once dropped a woman for just that problem. Still cannot judge the woman as I don't know her and have not asked her why this happened. She might have a good answer like the one you gave and I might accept that or she might have no answer and I would not accept that. The description of my own situation was only to show that every relationship can be different.
There is too much that nobody knows here, probably even Chris doesn't know. With some time or effort he will know. With the right frame of mind he can come out of a bad situation stronger.
Ckott
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There is too much that nobody knows here, probably even Chris doesn't know. With some time or effort he will know. With the right frame of mind he can come out of a bad situation stronger.
While there is many things that we do not know - you have given really useful and generous advice to ChrisE.
Also some interesting insights in general. +1
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Halo, 'so whar' is for a pointless lie, or a lie told to somebody who will never be in a position to know the truth.
Because ID is so universal in this part of the world lying about age is only a short term benefit. It indicates the type of relationship that the person making the claim is engaged in.
Rude to talk about age or how a person looks. I do not think so. Chris made a very specific claim of the picture he shared. I am as sure as I can be without having been there that the situation is not as Chris imagines it. Her appearance is just one more data point.
Smiling is a good point. We DO smile differently here. No fangs out to rip flesh from bones. Nowadays I see a full on US style smile as being unsettling, sometimes threatening. But body language tells a lot.
By the way Scott, really that which does not kill us does NOT make us stronger - it always weakens us. We might fake it from being a little more wise but as somebody else once wrote 'an ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure'. We can not know for sure that this woman is a bad idea for Chris, We can not know that going to live in Ukraine, in Lugansk is a bad idea, but we can know that given the givens both seem to be less than optimal.
We can also know that we are seeing a trend, many data points all lined up.
Even locking Chris up while she 'took care of business' on its own can be excused, but all this crap and in just a few days?
Just imagine what living with such a woman will be like. She will suck all of Chris' energy and leave him looking less relaxed and more frazzled than he does in his pic.
Yes, it is his choice what he does, but I don't know the guy and I want to find a way to stage an intervention, :(
Christian, yes I agree about the hair but so many women dye it as a matter of course and from a very early age that it seemed to not be too material.
On the whole, those who say that one can not tell age from a photo are wrong, There are norms and we may fall outside those norms but there are reasons why that happens and it is worth knowing those reasons. Either this woman has had an unaccountably hard life (poor health, addiction, lots of 'night' work) or she is older than she suggests and that, as noted, is not a good sign.
My guess is that Chris will go ahead to try and marry this woman - in part to prove some of us wrong. Pursuit of this woman will add to his already stressed life and he will suffer fr it. His new wife will not be around for long and he will take a long while to recover.
C.F the thread about panties flying in the wind...
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Christian, yes I agree about the hair but so many women dye it as a matter of course and from a very early age that it seemed to not be too material.
i was being sarcastic (:)
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My sarcasm filter must have been on, sorry. But anyway, it'd be great if you could get Chris to come visit you and see how things can be rather than how they are for him right now.
A long time ago a bloke from a forum did me a similar favour in Estonia and changed how I looked at the place and its opportunities forever.
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Certainly I have been critical of AndrewFi in the past; however I have to say his post of 2 or 3 posts prior, is entirely rational and I am in agreement with it.
"Whatever does not kill me makes me stronger" is only true until you hit 29 years or so of age.
After that, we are talking about missed opportunities, wasted money and time, and health that has to be paid attention to and worked on in order to stay 100% operational.
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I agree, the comment on her age was rude. Moreover, I don't think anyone can tell a person's age from a photo. People can look very different in photos, based on how they hold themselves. Many women wear a lot of make up, and FSUW have a particular "style" when they wear make up. This lady has lovely features, and even if she were 40, so what? Beauty fades, so marry someone who is interesting, kind, and loves you. The comments were extremely superficial, but something I've come to expect from reading these forums.
It was beyond rude. It seems that since Chris is not listening to the maven's apocalyptic turn of events directed at HIM, now it is time to demonize HER. Hopefully, she will grow horns and a tail along with the heavy make up and Chris eventually do as told and run away from this she-demon.
I'll say this; I've never heard of an exorcist attending a person who has the potential of being possessed.
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I agree, the comment on her age was rude. Moreover, I don't think anyone can tell a person's age from a photo. People can look very different in photos, based on how they hold themselves. Many women wear a lot of make up, and FSUW have a particular "style" when they wear make up. This lady has lovely features, and even if she were 40, so what? Beauty fades, so marry someone who is interesting, kind, and loves you. The comments were extremely superficial, but something I've come to expect from reading these forums.
It was beyond rude. It seems that since Chris is not listening to the maven's apocalyptic turn of events directed at HIM, now it is time to demonize HER. Hopefully, she will grow horns and a tail along with the heavy make up and Chris eventually do as told and run away from this she-demon.
I'll say this; I've never heard of an exorcist attending a person who has the potential of being possessed.
I don't think it's as bad as all that at this point, Muzh. However, regardless of who opened the door, lets all members steer away from any further discussion regarding the lady's age, makeup, hair or personal appearance, etc. from this point forward.
Thanks,
Brass
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There are photos of most of the long term posters here buried in the archives across various topics. Most of us don't scare the horses.
I can see the point where some think it impolite to discuss a lady's age/appearance. Whist that has validity in normal situations, guys marrying FSU ladies need to vastly speed up the courtship process. That means these type of data points must be looked at. Women lie about their age - this woman looks a little older than claimed. Its a fair discussion as long as we remain respectful.
The lady is undoubtedly pretty; watching her on the short video shows us she has a very cute and coy way about her. Its not hard to see why Chris is so inveigled. He is a regular looking fellow; she is a visually credible FSU match for him. I expect his choices in the US are several notches below her looks and several tens of kilos heavier.
What I think our members are trying to do here is highlight informational discrepancies whilst removing the concept that this lady is in any way a rarity in the FSU. In the US, for sure, she may be a prize catch for Chris. But, in the FSU, she is one of several hundred similar looking women he will easily meet who seek a husband.
Most of those won't see him charged hundreds for a taxi nor lock him away as a prisoner over New Year. Most will be of a similar calibre in the looks department, but be more honest in deed than this one was.
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There is almost no limit to the destruction a crooked interpreter can have when between a couple. Kickbacks from taxi or shopping, influencing the girl to do things she would not normally do because she says it is normal for him or should be done differently.
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Halo, 'so whar' is for a pointless lie, or a lie told to somebody who will never be in a position to know the truth.
Because ID is so universal in this part of the world lying about age is only a short term benefit. It indicates the type of relationship that the person making the claim is engaged in
Most of the men in this pursuit lie, most importantly, I think, to themselves. So, I don't see a woman shaving a few years off age where ageism is the norm, as all that important. I would view it as a mistake, but not a character flaw.
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Been out sick the past couple days and just getting caught back up on the comments here. WOW! Most entertaining to say the least how the attacks started coming from all directions, and how sides are being chosen. Kind of makes me think of a mix between a soap opera and an RPG forming alliances preparing for battle. I can't wait to see how this all turns out! :popcorn:
OK, couple things: Her age is not something I care to discuss other than to say she both looks and acts age appropriate. I saw her older sister, so know what she will look like in 15 years. Not ideal, but I'm willing to accept that. Check ID? What will that prove-especially since I can't read it? That would only add more distrust into the equation. Perhaps I should have a full Interpol investigation done right away, and also have her taken in for a full psychological workup while I'm at it?
Dyed hair? No way! Anyone who has ever been with a lady who has jet black hair and uses dye will know that there is no dye that will give the natural luster of black hair. Any dye turns even the natural color flat, and often gives a deep purple-ish hue in the sun. Not happening here! But really, why would it make any difference? It doesn't change the person! Nobody here is perfect-far from it. So many men will also use products for removing grey in their hair, or something like viagra to to overcome the age factor.
As for smiles in photos, so true about the difference between American and FSU smiles-thay are completely different. There was actually even a thread on this topic some while back. A photo or 3 does not indicate the happiness factor of the lady. I know that Olga is really and honestly happy not by the words she says, but by her actions. I can see by her body language, the look in her eyes, and the glow she has when we are together. Even the most uncensored and complete TR may only give a very small percentage of the information that is gained by just spending time with someone. So how can anyone who has not met the person in question have the ability to judge?
For the comment about not really having anything to lose-The only thing I have going for me here stateside is my job, and I don't even like it that much. I have no close family, and my best friend I haven't seen in a year. Much like Christian wrote about when he went back home is very much the same here. Yes, I have "friends" who (As an example) will only be happy to be this way when I'm buying the beer. Once the beer runs out, so do they. If they have beer, they don't share it in return. After getting away from my ex, I lost everything I owned other that the few things I had at work, or was able to smuggle out (2 boxes of stuff) at a later date. I had spent over a year trying to prepare for the chance I could be moving to the FSU if conditions were right, but yet keeping the options open in case I was to bring a lady back to the US eventually. As it turns out, now I have the option to relocate to a country I feel a lot more comfortable in. I am more comfortable with the culture and lifestyle of Ukraine, and see a lot more potential for a better life including family and children. I agree it will be one hell of a challenge, especially for maybe the first year or two. But aren't the most rewarding things in life also the hardest to obtain?
Just wanted to add that once I do move to Lugansk, we are planning on moving in together right away. Olga is already scoping out apartments for us, and taking care of some other details on her end. Even though I could probably get the "rush" at Zags and bypass the 30 day wait, I will hold off and see how the first month goes living together before actually tying the knot. That way if there is a problem, there won't be any legal issues with moving on. But I will of course take all the steps and making all the effort to be sucessful, and Olga is doing the same.
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Been out sick the past couple days and just getting caught back up on the comments here. WOW!
As it turns out, now I have the option to relocate to a country I feel a lot more comfortable in. I am more comfortable with the culture and lifestyle of Ukraine, and see a lot more potential for a better life including family and children. I agree it will be one hell of a challenge, especially for maybe the first year or two. But aren't the most rewarding things in life also the hardest to obtain?
WOW is right. Ok to set a non aggressive tone and approach this from a light hearted standpoint so my message isn't lost here is a joke a taxi driver told me in Kiev.
So....guy dies and goes to heaven where he meets St Peter. Throughout his life he made sure to be decent honest hard working loyal blah blah blah.... super clean life style. NO drinking partying or vices of any kind. No strip clubs or playboy magazines. When he went to heaven he pictured paradise. When he arrived it was very very dull. Not what he imagined.
One day they were offering tours of hell. The itinerary showed night clubs, beautiful naked horny women, live bands, more naked horny women. He signed up immediately.
The tour was for one weekend. He had the time of his life. He couldnt believe it, hell was fantastic. Nothing at all resembled what he had expected or been told. He couldn't believe how he had wasted his time on earth being decent.
After several weeks more in heaven he was going out of his mind dreaming of his time in hell. A tour to hell was announced. He immediately went to sign up but was quickly informed all tourists were restricted to one visit. Upon explaining his situation to the tour operator he was informed that they had a vacancy to fill for permanent residence. The bloke couldn't believe his luck. After living such a good life St Peter was willing to grant his transfer. St Peter warned this was a one way ticket...there would be no return. He asked if the bloke knew what he was requesting. Hastily and confidently the bloke insisted on forging ahead. Yes Yes I need to go back as soon as possible.
Upon entering hell he was greeted by the same two bouncers who quickly whisked him into a second line. Thinking there was a mistake he inquired to the bouncers why he wasnt going with the others to the party line. The bouncers went into a laughing fit as the poor sole was strapped with ball and chains, stripped of his clothes and dragged down the road of burning coals by ugly beasts bragging how they were going to have "fun". The bouncers shouted one last comment, "thats the difference between a visit visa and permanent residence, welcome to hell!".
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Chris I will respect your previous posts and not :dh:
The whole lady discusion aside, Ukraine is in a tough spot. As a result the folks are quite tough as well. Good people will act shitty when circumstances dictate, bad people... worse.
Raising kids in Ukraine when given the option of the US would be a mistake IMHO. Just spend a few hours at the local playground to get a clear picture. Half the moms are sitting there with beer at 9am. Come back at 11am, what do you see? Come back the next day, what do you see? Did you notice the boys, 18-40yrs old, gathered at the picnic tables at the other end of the park? That aint cool aid they are sipping. Go back at 2pm when they had enough cool aid and the eyes are glazed over completly pissed up.
Dont get me wrong....there were some great parents in the same park. I'd say it was a 50-50 split. When was the last time you would see that shit in the suburbs of a US playground.
OK lets talk housing....for 70K you can get a studio apartment in Kiev. I realize its cheaper in the village. For say 100K you could get a two bedroom, one bath. In the US right now you could easily be living in a 3 bedroom 2 bath house for the same. In fact if you have any ambition you and I know you could fix up a forclosure for much less.
Are you thinking of mortgaging something? How and if you do at what rate? Cash on the barrel in Ukraine Chris.
Do you honestly think "friends" in Kiev would not be different than you describe above. I suspect they will be the very same and in fact quite plentifull as you will be the wealthy foreigner.
Chris I wish I could share your dream of living in Ukraine. I have two small kids. We have a few properties in Kiev. It would be great to perhaps spend an extended summer. To consider raising kids there when you have alternatives would be irresponsible.
Take a closer look Chris. Spend an extended time. Above all dot the I's and cross the T's before leaping
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If I am not mistaken Andrew himself pointed out that he does not live in the former Soviet Union but in one of the Baltic "States" countries that was part of the Warsaw pact with the Soviet Union. (And yes I understand that Moscow pulled the strings on the Warsaw pact)
The Baltic states were never part of the Warsaw Pact. They were annexed by the USSR in 1939 (at the same time as Western Ukraine), after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. The Warsaw Pact was first established in 1955. The Warsaw Pact countries were independent states. The Baltic countries were not. The Baltic states were all part of the former Soviet Union.
On the collapse of the USSR, the Baltic states were culturally Soviet, and that influence, though waning, still remains. The attitudes and mindset are the same (though likely changing in the Baltics) as in other FSU countries. I see that in a lot of Andrew's descriptions, and so his advice on these points should be heeded.
I think Andrew can be harsh, though personally, I actually enjoy his no nonsense approach, and he is a realist. He made some valid points. Chris, you don't speak Russian (the primary language of Lugansk), you were there, what, a week? with eveything arranged for you. Ukraine, even in areas more hospitable to foreigners, is not an easy place to live. It is macho on steroids, and incredibly corrupt. Andrew is just warning you to have an exit strategy if things don't work out, and I think that is really sound advice.
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Chris, so that you understand something else, you can't just move there and work! You can stay 90 days, then you have to leave for 180. even if you marry, you do not get to stay that easy.
I know some from US that did this and has been married about 9 months and finally got his resident status.
First time he came back to US, the second time he went to Moldova, so do you, your home work before quitting your job.
Also, I beleive the rules have changed since that time and it is even more difficult. Unless you have 100k for donation.
it as not as easy as showing up and saying here I am!
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The $100,000 "donation" is for permanent residency. To live in Ukraine long term, you need a work permit, and a category "D" visa.
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Yes, and from some other postings all the rules have changed as recent as past September.
So even getting a work visa is more difficult. I am curious to see how people get it or around it as the case may be.
Bribery is always an option, seeing how you can buy almost anything in Ukraine :chuckle:
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The problem with bribery is it is a way to control you. I would be concerned, with legal paperwork, to rely on bribery as it can come back and bite you in a bad way, if that is what is convenient for authorities.
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Here's a look at something common in Ukraine, namely, the impunity with which the "elite" believe they can behave -
In this case, Roman Landik (a "human rights activist" :sick0012:) will face trial. I will also point out that Landik did not know this girl, had never seen her before.
As this video went viral, including beyond Ukraine's borders, Landik's father, a Ukrainian lawmaker and the most powerful man in Lugansk (there are tapes of him threatening police), could not make this go away.
Don't think this is an extraordinary event in Ukraine.
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Let me try to do this in one post.
First Chris because it is about you and your choices, Halo and for that matter the others are correct. To paraphrase Dorothy "Toto I do not think we are in Kansas anymore" and personally I can tell you based on enough trips to Ukraine and Russia there are no roads paved with yellow bricks.
It was not for nothing Inna said when I described your situation and plans "Is he crazy." She lives there and painted a rather grim picture for me.
The comment from Welder sums up what many Ukrainian mothers know in there hearts to be true it is not easy to raise children there. Perhaps even more so in a city such as Lugansk. Let me ask you the question would you wish to have a family in South West Detroit?
Halo is correct in her description of the Warsaw pact.
Brass regarding Andrew, yes I am aware that Andrew and Chris have sparred before (It would be interesting to see a list of who has not had an "exchange" with Andrew) - I and others have said that Andrew has often a valid point. But consistently and repeatedly Andrew manages to poison threads with his writing. It is not so much persona or style but approach. It is not for lack of other words that I consider him the RUA prat. I am certainly am not the only one here to see that.
I would be happy to send Manny a copy of "The Elements of Style" he can give it to Andrew the next time they are together. Who knows perhaps others posters will have suggestions to polish Andrews writing.
AvHdB
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Hmmm...
I love it when folks decide to rewrite what I wrote in an attempt to make a point. ;)
[Mod edit: Out of context.]
ChrisE's little footstamping gets a free ride from me, he is in the midst of a turbulent time in his life, he feels, probably wrongly, that his home country, family and friends have nothing to offer him and he is looking for, and desperate for, an escape. It'd be a little odd if challenges to his dreams and fantasies (some might call them plans) arise. Whilst I am not the only person who has been making similar points I am an easy lightning rod. He can, and probably will, apologise later - he seems like a decent but abused bloke.
I'd strongly say this to you Chris, do not run away!
As for myself I have lived in the FSU for years. Apart from the women that you guys claim to want to marry I reckon I am probably some YEARS ahead of the closest in this regard. Estonia is a place I have, for years, described as 'FSU Lite' in that the country whilst having obvious signs and ghosts of its past works somewhat better than any of the other countries round here that I have stayed in with similar past. There is much that this place has in common with Russia and the other countries round here and much transferable experience and knowledge.
And yes, Estonia was part of the Soviet Union. If you are going to find a wife from these parts at least check up on geography and history in order that you do not arouse howls of derision from your target women.
Chris, if this woman is in her mid 30s and is naturally dark haired, unless you saw visible signs of gray, she dyes it. It is a small thing but you are still rationalising like crazy - you MUST come to see this woman as she is in order to have any hope of a successful relationship with her. Unless you come to see her as she really is you will be abused her and used by her until you crack up, lash out or run away.
Anyone thinking of staying in this part of the world, read Welder's joke. It contains much truth. There is a wealth of good reasons why not many guys stay here long and why almost none make a life here.
Chris is less well prepared than most I have seen with this dream.
Also read and internalise what Welder wrote about the cost of living. Remember that anything that is what one might term a 'world good' will cost world prices, that means at least the same as you pay in the US. So, all the things that make your life pleasant in a material sense will cost you just as much as they do in the US and often more. All you can save money on is local stuff, stuff for poor people, and whatever happens you do not want to live poor. And remember this, if Olga is at all serious about living with you in Lugansk then you MUST be able to be an upgrade for her. She will NEED that you're able to enable her to justify to her friends, ex boyfriends (and there are probably more of those than you imagine) and any who want her back in their life as opposed to living with a 'tourist' or foreigner.
Halo, shaving a few years of one's age is really only likely to happen where a person already knows the relationship will not last long because round here ID is so universal and so used that it would be impossible to maintain a fiction about age.
For example, a hooker might profess to be 30 when in fact she is a decent looking 40 in dim light. She knows her client will not ask for ID and that it will make the guy feel better.
A person thinking of a long term relationship is really unlikely to lie about it he/she does not really want to be shown up as a liar early in a long term relationship.
This is not the case in, for example, the UK where we do not routinely carry and use ID and where women were in the past (dunno about now) able to conceal their age on what is almost the only widely used ID, the driving licence. (and we do not even have to carry that with us when we drive)
Thus it makes good sense to get a gander at ID. She is going to have to share it soon anyway and so it makes sense to find out what kind of a relationship he has going on.
Krassavchik I have written at length about my life here and in Russia, I will leave it to you to do the reading. Suffice it to say I DO know what I am talking about here. I am an ugly, fat, old bloke who, for some reason, has little problem with having the company of people whose company he finds conducive and attractive. I must be doing something right. :)
Along the way I have done what few (no) others here have done, I live here and made a life starting from scratch. I do not have to return to my home country because the economy went a bit bad.
Oh, AvHdB, yeah, I know my native language better than most, if not all, of you. 'Elements of Style' is not about how one writes but about how the words should be presented - grammar and spelling. By repeating the hoary suggestion ad infinitum you are just showing how little you know, time and time again.
And yes Scott the woman is a decent looking woman; babe is certainly overstating it but I can understand why you'd use the term.
I want Chris to be happy and fulfilled. In part that is why there will be no feathers up the bum from me. Anyone who has encouraged him to continue while knowing that he is doing silly stuff should be ashamed of themselves. Anyone who has attempted to deflect from Chris by attacking me, for similar reason, should also be fully ashamed of themselves.
If you care about Chris then each of you, in your own ways should be doing your level best to try to get him to cast the scales from his eyes.
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If you care about Chris then each of you, in your own ways should be doing your level best to try to get him to cast the scales from his eyes.
At the end of the day, Chris is going to do what Chris wants to do. The negatives can be pointed out for Chris to consider, but it's his life, and his decision.
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We have a few properties in Kiev.
Is is truly "we" (both names on the deed) or your wife's? I thought that foreigners could not own property in Ukraine, but perhaps it is only the agricultural lands and buildings on these lands.
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I am more comfortable with the culture and lifestyle of Ukraine, and see a lot more potential for a better life including family and children.
How long in total did you spend in Ukraine? Keep in mind that the first phase of culture is the "euphoric" phase where everything seems wonderful. I would not base a decision to move to any country on the first few weeks spent in a country.
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We have a few properties in Kiev.
Is is truly "we" (both names on the deed) or your wife's? I thought that foreigners could not own property in Ukraine, but perhaps it is only the agricultural lands and buildings on these lands.
Only agricultural land and, IIRC, some exceptions.
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Chris, so that you understand something else, you can't just move there and work! You can stay 90 days, then you have to leave for 180. even if you marry, you do not get to stay that easy.
NS1, I'm not sure the above is entirely correct. I know that you can stay longer than the 90 days most people here talk about. You will need a visa to stay for 6 months AND THEN you have to be outside the country for 180 days before you can stay for another 6 months. Then there are the "husband" visas that will allow you to stay there for an indefinite amount of time.
Now back to Chris. Do you have enough moolah stashed away for you to live there? Any kind of steady income you can rely on? Because I doubt very much you will find a job. You will have to crate your own job and that is another set of rules you have to learn. Do you have any plans for supporting you and Olga in her town? Have you two talked about this? She may be under the impression you have lots of re$ource$. What have you two talked to each other? NOT what was interpreted.
Just saying.
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I am more comfortable with the culture and lifestyle of Ukraine, and see a lot more potential for a better life including family and children.
How long in total did you spend in Ukraine? Keep in mind that the first phase of culture is the "euphoric" phase where everything seems wonderful. I would not base a decision to move to any country on the first few weeks spent in a country.
I don't have an axe to grind with the country, and I had some great adventures in this fascinating place. However, there is no way to paint it other than Ukraine is the garbage bin of Europe. Sorry for any offence caused to the readers and I'm sure many will disagree with me, but how Chris can see this place providing a better life for him is way beyond me?! He spun a few tales I've let slip but i'm not having this one.
Stray dogs running everywhere, power cuts, cold water, filthy streets, rubbish blowing in the wind, holes in roads/pavements, crumbling buildings, low salaries, poor medical care, corruption at every turn.....and this is just scratching the surface!If the women were ugly only a fraction of the people to have visited would still have a stamp in the passport.
Chris, I'm more convinced than ever that your on the run from some kind of unhappy period in your life. I fear if you cut the apron strings and make the big move, your problems will follow you there and you'll have to deal with it in a much less forgiving environment!
small print - contrary to my portrayal of Ukraine above, I can confirm there is the odd nice place to be found :-X
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Chris, so that you understand something else, you can't just move there and work! You can stay 90 days, then you have to leave for 180. even if you marry, you do not get to stay that easy.
NS1, I'm not sure the above is entirely correct. I know that you can stay longer than the 90 days most people here talk about. You will need a visa to stay for 6 months AND THEN you have to be outside the country for 180 days before you can stay for another 6 months. Then there are the "husband" visas that will allow you to stay there for an indefinite amount of time.
Now back to Chris. Do you have enough moolah stashed away for you to live there? Any kind of steady income you can rely on? Because I doubt very much you will find a job. You will have to crate your own job and that is another set of rules you have to learn. Do you have any plans for supporting you and Olga in her town? Have you two talked about this? She may be under the impression you have lots of re$ource$. What have you two talked to each other? NOT what was interpreted.
Just saying.
Muzh, I don't know the rules, but I know a guy who is now living there and married to a women there, and had to leave after being married,,, he now has his resident status, but it was not easy or quick and even after marriage he had to leave for 90 days
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Rosco, I believe you were NOT totally honest here:
Chris, I'm more convinced than ever that your on the run from some kind of unhappy period in your life. I fear if you cut the apron strings and make the big move, your problems will follow you there and you'll have to deal with it in a much less forgiving environment!
In reality you should have said: "your problems will grow exponentially there and you'll have to deal with it in a chaotic environment."
Now, that would sound honest. And Chris, I'm not bullshitting you.
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Muzh, I don't know the rules, but I know a guy who is now living there and married to a women there, and had to leave after being married,,, he now has his resident status, but it was not easy or quick and even after marriage he had to leave for 90 days
So, your friend is a Mormon, eh?
Just kidding. ;D
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Stray dogs running everywhere, power cuts, cold water, filthy streets, rubbish blowing in the wind, holes in roads/pavements, crumbling buildings, low salaries, poor medical care, corruption at every turn.....and this is just scratching the surface
That is one of the best descriptions I have seen. I do have to think the combination of big holes in the street and beautiful women could be near fatal. I can recall almost stepping into a 3 foot deep hole right in the middle of the sidewalk on my last trip there. Still, It is a place I could consider living despite all the shortcomings but do agree the restrictions on ones ability to live there are a problem for Chris.
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Andrew, I have no problem with anything you brought up with exception to cutting down the looks of a woman. I have never been on a group that did not have rules against this kind of thing. Looks and age are a personal matter and it does not matter for Chris in this case.
I also think that the lack of planning is such that in more ways than just the girl what will likely happen in the future is a disaster. The best thing would be to pull out, start again and do it right but that probably will not happen, unless all has not been discussed between them and she pulls out herself when it is all out on the table.
I saw all the red flags and I would have pulled out long ago. I do think half of everything could be chalked up to a crooked interpreter but not everything. Still, there is a lot to be said for being there in person and some women in the FSU can be dumb as bricks even with the PHD, or just different from most others. There is still lots of time for this whole thing to disappear but for the moment it might be better to help and I do not agree that a bad experience only weakens. I think it makes you wiser. I do not think you can get around things so easily when it comes to love. You must learn the hard way sometimes.
My uninformed opinion is that Chris has limited financial resources due to divorce. It is a subject he does not talk about. It may be a subject they have not talked about. I think it is common knowledge that to get by it will cost about $1000 a month. $300 for rent on average which can go up depending on the market, the quality and time of year (student population). Food, another $300 and $300 more for misc. and that can be scrimping. Then there are visas and related costs. I have always gone with a business visa for a year at a time and every year I have spent around $1000-$1500 just to take a train to Latvia, stay in a cheap hostel for a couple weeks and pay for the new visa. A planned internet business is absolutely not stable at least until it is. If you go and find out that it is not stable then do the math, $15,000 and a year to be with your wife until all hell breaks loose and your life is a mess. $30,000 for two years and really big problems. If you gamble and lose then you will also be unable to do a fiancee visa later for at least three years. Life is over as you know it.
I do not agree about living in Ukraine. I understand how many do not like the quality of life. I look at it as camping. I like the second world atmosphere. There are many problems but I prefer them to life in the USA. I also like how easily and cheaply a great vacation can be from there. I am very happy to get on a crowded, freezing cold bus while a cute dev is pressing her full bod behind mine :). I have always loved it even when the hot water and heat goes out every spring. I love the people, the unexpected, the corruption. There are others like me. One time a brick fell three stories off a building to land 2 yards behind me on a sidewalk and I have been attacked by huge drunk Russians. I tripped flat on my face over one small pipe that ran across the sidewalk probably 30 times late at night. There are bad points even for me but I see it as excitement in an overly boring life.
Maybe with help Chris will understand the costs involved and especially the visa problems. There are several options to the visa problem but they all include some amount of money and time. Over time many things can change. He could even be successful.
Hey Chris, think about opening up a marriage agency.
Scott
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Scott good post, positive and real
+10
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Chris,
Please understand there is no one here (I think) who is against your dream. The problem is the reality.
Perhaps if you tell us you won the lottery or your uncle just deposited a sum in dollars that included 5 zeroes before the decimal we would say ok - go for it. But I suspect that is not the reality.
In any event we would be very disapointed if you disengaged at this point.
AvHdB
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I tripped flat on my face over one small pipe that ran across the sidewalk probably 30 times late at night.
Some night eh? I bet a copious amount of vodka was involved ........
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Scott, how many years have you been living in Ukraine?
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Scott, how many years have you been living in Ukraine?
I lose track of time. Have had two full passports with extensions over twelve years. Roughly 6 years Russia with the two MOB agencies and the laundromat (volgograd/saratov) and 4 years Ukraine (Kharkov) with the coffee corner and manicure shop. Somewhere in there 1-3 months in each of most of the East Europe countries mostly waiting for visas or tourism.
I tripped flat on my face over one small pipe that ran across the sidewalk probably 30 times late at night.
Some night eh? I bet a copious amount of vodka was involved ........
A small 1" pipe across a shaded area of sidewalk with no lighting. I would often walk home late and trip over the damn thing almost every night even when counting footsteps. Eventually I took a different route but I am a stubborn cuss. No drinking for me. I developed a way out of most situations by saying I had a stomach problem (and they would always shake heads in agreement).
Scott
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I tripped flat on my face over one small pipe that ran across the sidewalk probably 30 times late at night.
Some night eh? I bet a copious amount of vodka was involved ........
A small 1" pipe across a shaded area of sidewalk with no lighting. I would often walk home late and trip over the damn thing almost every night even when counting footsteps. Eventually I took a different route but I am a stubborn cuss. No drinking for me. I developed a way out of most situations by saying I had a stomach problem (and they would always shake heads in agreement).
I could not imagine being in Ukraine and not being drunk. :(
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[Mod edit; Out of context]
... I am completely new to this forum and yes I am not experienced in conversing with or seeing women from Russia or the surrounding countries but I am experienced in dating women and being married,my point is in the end all women are the same, they want a stand up guy who will take charge but not in a overbearing way, and they want a man who will be no one's fool...and with my short experience they will test you on this.
The reason I joined this site was to get information and to read about other men and their experiences on this subject and to ask questions then get reliable replies from guys who have been there and done that...not asinine comments about where a man is from or questioning his man-hood.
With that being said...there is nothing to see here and no popcorn is being offered. What I want is friends who share the same passion as me...The Russian woman! if you are not good with this then do not reply to me and I will not be offended, It is the American way.
JustMD
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ChrisE:
- about the dyed hair comment: you missed it too: i was being sarcastic!
(she does however dye her hair, all girls with black hair do after their 20's..).
I just meant to say, as with the age thing: who cares??? Its not relevant so folks here should not go to that level imo.
- i KNOW how it feels to have 'nothing back at home'. I just was 10 days in Holland so hell yes: i know how that feels! And when you feel that: you have NOTHING to lose! Cant be closer to death when you have nothing to live for.
People on this forum tell you (including me): "youre taking a too big risk with a girl that obviously has insincere intentions."
The last 10 days in Holland i was reminded by the few people i spoke i am 'JUST AS STUPID' as you:
They all say and warn me "why you going to this dangerous corrupt country, mid winter, while you have serious visa problems?".
I zoom out of the situation, discard my personal feeling and realize: they are just as right and legit with their warnings towards me as we are right and legit with our warnings towards you.
But you know what.. i take the risk..
why?
Because the alternative (staying at home) is not a choice i could live with. And until i find a better alternative/a better solution/a way to do things better: ill do the BEST alternative i know right now.. and that is taking risks that my common sense would never take a year ago.
And the fun part is when im here having an extroardinary live people say nothing.
BUT.. the minute something goes wrong here they will all say "yeah.. i told you so!".
So... there is no right and no wrong: you cant win... just do what FEELS right. Just NEVER forget there are SO many options and alternatives.. youre not lost without her: this is only the beginning. If things work out wit her: great. I doubt it. But if not: its the beginning of a life you never could imagine before. And i really think it will start the minute you decide to stay in Ukraine for a longer time.
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(she does however dye her hair, all girls with black hair do after their 20's..).
Not necessarily. My Grandmother, God rest her soul, had jet black hair. She never wore make up, and never dyed her hair. It would have been anathema to her. Her hair remained jet black, with not a grey, until her early eighties. She then started going grey, and by 91, was completely grey. My husband has a similar story about one of his Grandmothers. She had jet black hair until her seventies.
Chris is wrong about dyed black hair having a purple hue, as well. Advances in hair colour treatment have been quite dramatic over the past decade. :) Of course, one has to frequent a good salon. The $15 box of Clairol won't give the same result.
Nevertheless, your point is well taken. Hopefully, one does not fall in love with hair dye. When I met my husband, my hair was auburn (natural at that time). After I had children, it changed colour, to a very dark brunette, but I dyed it blonde. I have gone back to my now natural colour, which is very dark brunette. My husband's love for me did not diminish, based on my hair colour, at any particular time.
- i KNOW how it feels to have 'nothing back at home'. I just was 10 days in Holland so hell yes: i know how that feels! And when you feel that: you have NOTHING to lose! Cant be closer to death when you have nothing to live for.
But you are at very different stages of your lives. You are 25 (wet behind the ears ;D). If things go sideways for you, it is quite simple for you to pack up, go home, and have a second chance. Chris is two decades older. Restarting in his society will not be easy. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will be a very uphill battle.
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But you are at very different stages of your lives. You are 25 (wet behind the ears ;D). If things go sideways for you, it is quite simple for you to pack up, go home, and have a second chance. Chris is two decades older. Restarting in his society will not be easy. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will be a very uphill battle.
I dont agree with you on that..*
Quite the opposite actually. I see this as the typical pitfall in the mindset of 'older people'.
"if things go sideways for you"..
Lol..things already HAVE gone sideways for him ... for decades of his life (based on his descriptions and opinions about his current life/situation).
Reading ChrisE's description about his current life in the US: he doesnt have much/anything he values there. Not much to live for.
The fact a girl that should be considered 'below what he deserves', is rocking his world: says more than enough about where he comes from/where he's now.
I dont think ChrisE gets much satisfaction out of the benefits this 'society' currently offers...
Not because ChrisE is a loser: no, ChrisE realized something many others having similar lives fail to see or fail to feel the need for...
What you are actually saying... his 'society' or 'his current situation' offers him SECURITY.
And you are right with that: if he gives that up.. he takes a BIG risk. Maybe larger than life!
Maybe it could kill him.. maybe he could end up as a bum on the streets of some USA city.
But what is the use of SECURITY if you are not able to enjoy the life its supporting?
And theres is no hope for better continueing life as you did the last 10-20 years?
Then you just live to.....live.
As i said before: that is a lifestyle that runs parallel with DEATH.
Whether you are 20.. whether you are 70: its UNACCEPTABLE. At 20 its more safe to change... at 70 youre screwed.. hes in between.
And the funny thing: 99,9% of the people in the western world not only ACCEPT a lifestyle as this.. no.. they consider it as the highest thing achievable in life! Fvck!
So id say: BECAUSE he is older.. the more reason to take risks.. because the most scarce for him now is: TIME. More risk/more leverage (both ways).
I on the other hand have all time of the world: i could pull of a good RU wife by going to FSU just 2-3 weeks for a period of 10 years...all is relative.
* but that could be because of my youthful enthusiasm / inexperience ofcourse.
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I don't think many here have said this woman is beneath him. Certainly I have not, as I don't believe some people are worth more than others. Some things in the story did not add up, but if Chris' gut is this is "the one", I wish him the best.
A place does not change a person. You are, ultimately, the same person whether you live in Moscow, Beijing, Paris, or Peoria, and the best predictor of the future is the past.
No, I am not saying his current situation offers him security. When one has the exuberance of youth, the unfamiliar is exciting. When one is older, these views usually pass, as not much is "new" or "unfamiliar". Like Andrew, I just don't believe a move should be to run from problems. Your problems will follow you.
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I don't think many here have said this woman is beneath him. Certainly I have not, as I don't believe some people are worth more than others. Some things in the story did not add up, but if Chris' gut is this is "the one", I wish him the best.
A place does not change a person. You are, ultimately, the same person whether you live in Moscow, Beijing, Paris, or Peoria, and the best predictor of the future is the past.
No, I am not saying his current situation offers him security. When one has the exuberance of youth, the unfamiliar is exciting. When one is older, these views usually pass, as not much is "new" or "unfamiliar". Like Andrew, I just don't believe a move should be to run from problems. Your problems will follow you.
Ah.. let me make myself more clear: i did not mean "beneath' him as in 'less value'. Just the way he got treated.
If she came to the US to him: she would have received an OPPOSITE treatment by him (i hope :laugh:).
And it should have been: EQUAL treatment. So.. the treatment i was refering to.. not the value as person.
"best predictor of the future is the past."
One of my favorite quotes.. so true.. but for people as ChrisE that is exactly the thing: if he continues to do the same or similar things he used to do: hell get similar results. And he has enough of that i think.
And i think THAT is what he is trying to run from.. not as much his problems..just breaking the pattern in a more dramatic way than "picking a new hobby".
"Running from your problems" is as avoiding your responsibilities: when you try to escape your bitching wife and 4 children by having a romance with your co-worker for example.
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But you are at very different stages of your lives. You are 25 (wet behind the ears ;D). If things go sideways for you, it is quite simple for you to pack up, go home, and have a second chance. Chris is two decades older. Restarting in his society will not be easy. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will be a very uphill battle.
I dont agree with you on that..*
Quite the opposite actually. I see this as the typical pitfall in the mindset of 'older people'.
"if things go sideways for you"..
Lol..things already HAVE gone sideways for him ... for decades of his life (based on his descriptions and opinions about his current life/situation).
Reading ChrisE's description about his current life in the US: he doesnt have much/anything he values there. Not much to live for.
The fact a girl that should be considered 'below what he deserves', is rocking his world: says more than enough about where he comes from/where he's now.
I dont think ChrisE gets much satisfaction out of the benefits this 'society' currently offers...
Not because ChrisE is a loser: no, ChrisE realized something many others having similar lives fail to see or fail to feel the need for...
What you are actually saying... his 'society' or 'his current situation' offers him SECURITY.
And you are right with that: if he gives that up.. he takes a BIG risk. Maybe larger than life!
Maybe it could kill him.. maybe he could end up as a bum on the streets of some USA city.
But what is the use of SECURITY if you are not able to enjoy the life its supporting?
And theres is no hope for better continueing life as you did the last 10-20 years?
Then you just live to.....live.
As i said before: that is a lifestyle that runs parallel with DEATH.
Whether you are 20.. whether you are 70: its UNACCEPTABLE. At 20 its more safe to change... at 70 youre screwed.. hes in between.
And the funny thing: 99,9% of the people in the western world not only ACCEPT a lifestyle as this.. no.. they consider it as the highest thing achievable in life! Fvck!
So id say: BECAUSE he is older.. the more reason to take risks.. because the most scarce for him now is: TIME. More risk/more leverage (both ways).
I on the other hand have all time of the world: i could pull of a good RU wife by going to FSU just 2-3 weeks for a period of 10 years...all is relative.
* but that could be because of my youthful enthusiasm / inexperience ofcourse.
I'm sorry, I know your heart is in the right place but you're more wrong than right; I guess if you're only 25 it's understandable.
I'm close to ChrisE's age and I've restarted my life a few times over the years; dropped out of school from early teens, started college at 21 and uni at 23, lived and worked in 4 different countries and now settled here in Norway, this is my 2nd marriage...
In my mid-40's I can honestly say that starting again from scratch in a country where I had little clue of the language and culture with probably no possibility of getting a decent job, wouldn't even be an option no matter how "bad" it was at home. (:) Sure, it could be done but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that it would be better.
ChrisE sounds like he's making decisions based on desperation and hopelessness rather than rational objectivity which decisions like this have to be based on. What he needs to do is fix himself and his attitude so that he's not, as Andrew so rightly stated, running away from something.
The grass is always greener they say but it rarely is, especially when viewed through the eyes of desperation.
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I'm sorry, I know your heart is in the right place but you're more wrong than right; I guess if you're only 25 it's understandable.
I'm close to ChrisE's age and I've restarted my life a few times over the years; dropped out of school from early teens, started college at 21 and uni at 23, lived and worked in 4 different countries and now settled here in Norway, this is my 2nd marriage...
In my mid-40's I can honestly say that starting again from scratch in a country where I had little clue of the language and culture with probably no possibility of getting a decent job, wouldn't even be an option no matter how "bad" it was at home. (:) Sure, it could be done but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that it would be better.
ChrisE sounds like he's making decisions based on desperation and hopelessness rather than rational objectivity which decisions like this have to be based on. What he needs to do is fix himself and his attitude so that he's not, as Andrew so rightly stated, running away from something.
The grass is always greener they say but it rarely is, especially when viewed through the eyes of desperation.
Thats why i put the footnote: i have no idea about the dynamics of life when you are around your 40s and beyond.
Hell, i know nothing about life, i myself am far from anything i could call 'substantial'.
So dont want to come across as mr know-it-all (or ChrisE's spokesperson haha).. just ranting from a cafe in cold Odessa and enjoying the many POV's!
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Christian, you hit the nail on the head! It's almost exactly the way I feel, and I know that what little security I have here (how much do we REALLY have anyway?) is borinig me to death. I go to work 5 days a week, and spend the rest of my time just existing. Sure, I have hobbies and such, but without someone in life to enjoy being with and doing things together-to celebrate the good times, the triumphs, etc or to have a companion and support when things go terribly wrong in life, what really is the point? Yes, I have a "life", but it sure feels empty without someone to share it with.
And the sense of fitting into this society never existed with me. But, once I started spending time learning the FSU culture, and meting the people even just online gave me the impression I had found what I had been looking for-compatability! A culture that I truly felt at home with, and very comfortable with. I had been somewhat close to this when I was in Germany back in the early 80s, just nowhere near as strong a feeling of belonging. And it's not just the women, though it's a great perk. But just maybe something is the air. Christian has described it in his postings much better that I can do here, but I know exactly how he feels because I feel the same. It's just a really huge draw
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I'm sorry, I know your heart is in the right place but you're more wrong than right; I guess if you're only 25 it's understandable.
I'm close to ChrisE's age and I've restarted my life a few times over the years; dropped out of school from early teens, started college at 21 and uni at 23, lived and worked in 4 different countries and now settled here in Norway, this is my 2nd marriage...
In my mid-40's I can honestly say that starting again from scratch in a country where I had little clue of the language and culture with probably no possibility of getting a decent job, wouldn't even be an option no matter how "bad" it was at home. (:) Sure, it could be done but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that it would be better.
ChrisE sounds like he's making decisions based on desperation and hopelessness rather than rational objectivity which decisions like this have to be based on. What he needs to do is fix himself and his attitude so that he's not, as Andrew so rightly stated, running away from something.
The grass is always greener they say but it rarely is, especially when viewed through the eyes of desperation.
Thats why i put the footnote: i have no idea about the dynamics of life when you are around your 40s and beyond.
Hell, i know nothing about life, i myself am far from anything i could call 'substantial'.
So dont want to come across as mr know-it-all (or ChrisE's spokesperson haha).. just ranting from a cafe in cold Odessa and enjoying the many POV's!
Perhaps I'm being redundant in saying this but I'll reiterate it anyway; no matter how "bad" it is in his home country he's got a head start because 1) he knows the language, 2) knows the culture, 3) has much better chance of getting a job that pays enough to have a reasonable life. Yes, all these things can be had in an FSU country if you are determined, lucky, skilled enough and if you have the time to develop the required basics that he has by default in his home country. By the mid-forties, time is kinda not on your side and it will be an uphill struggle for him get to where he is now let alone to surpass it.
The way I see it, it would be far simpler, easier and much more doable to fix his life in his own country than try to make another in a country with far less potential.
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Christian, you hit the nail on the head! It's almost exactly the way I feel, and I know that what little security I have here (how much do we REALLY have anyway?) is borinig me to death. I go to work 5 days a week, and spend the rest of my time just existing. Sure, I have hobbies and such, but without someone in life to enjoy being with and doing things together-to celebrate the good times, the triumphs, etc or to have a companion and support when things go terribly wrong in life, what really is the point? Yes, I have a "life", but it sure feels empty without someone to share it with.
And the sense of fitting into this society never existed with me. But, once I started spending time learning the FSU culture, and meting the people even just online gave me the impression I had found what I had been looking for-compatability! A culture that I truly felt at home with, and very comfortable with. I had been somewhat close to this when I was in Germany back in the early 80s, just nowhere near as strong a feeling of belonging. And it's not just the women, though it's a great perk. But just maybe something is the air. Christian has described it in his postings much better that I can do here, but I know exactly how he feels because I feel the same. It's just a really huge draw
You should understand I hope that what you feel is just a fantasy, a delusion. You come across as irrational and in need of a psychologist. Of course, you will feel this is an insult and that I'm pissing on your parade, but really, get a 2nd opinion before you screw yourself over. :dh:
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Perhaps I'm being redundant in saying this but I'll reiterate it anyway; no matter how "bad" it is in his home country he's got a head start because 1) he knows the language, 2) knows the culture, 3) has much better chance of getting a job that pays enough to have a reasonable life. Yes, all these things can be had in an FSU country if you are determined, lucky, skilled enough and if you have the time to develop the required basics that he has by default in his home country.
ChrisE: stay right where you are!
I would almost hop on a plane and get back to my own country when i read about all of these remarkable advantages. Wow, what am i doing here? :laugh:
Ade: believe it or not: some people actually need some challenges in order to commit changes and become MOTIVATED. Doenst stop at 40.
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Perhaps I'm being redundant in saying this but I'll reiterate it anyway; no matter how "bad" it is in his home country he's got a head start because 1) he knows the language, 2) knows the culture, 3) has much better chance of getting a job that pays enough to have a reasonable life. Yes, all these things can be had in an FSU country if you are determined, lucky, skilled enough and if you have the time to develop the required basics that he has by default in his home country.
ChrisE: stay right where you are!
I would almost hop on a plane and get back to my own country when i read about all of these remarkable advantages. Wow, what am i doing here? :laugh:
Ade: believe it or not: some people actually need some challenges in order to commit changes and become MOTIVATED.
And if I have to make this even more explicit; if you can't improve your life in your own country where you have many more opportunities, then it's highly unlikely that you can in a country with far, far fewer and when you are so disadvantaged to start with.
But let's not forget, he'll get laid regularly (perhaps). Oh, that makes it all good then, right? (:)
Freaking sad. :duh:
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Freaking sad. :duh:
I'm close to ChrisE's age and I've restarted my life a few times over the years; dropped out of school from early teens, started college at 21 and uni at 23, lived and worked in 4 different countries and now settled here in Norway, this is my 2nd marriage...
So, after your brilliant advice i assume Norway is your homeland?
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Freaking sad. :duh:
I'm close to ChrisE's age and I've restarted my life a few times over the years; dropped out of school from early teens, started college at 21 and uni at 23, lived and worked in 4 different countries and now settled here in Norway, this is my 2nd marriage...
So, after your brilliant advice i assume Norway is your homeland?
It is now, but I'm originally a Brit.
Norway and Ukraine are worlds apart though. For a start the culture is hardly FSU-like not to mention that 90%+ of the population have passable English and, in my work, English is an advantage. Also, the country is rich with a huge social safety net and there are far more opportunities here; unemployment is running at 3.3% at the moment too which doesn't hurt. I was 33 or so too when I moved here.
If ChrisE were in his 20's or early 30's I'd be all for that he give it a go, for the experience if nothing else. In his 40's with the financial position he's in (I'm assuming few assets), it's a mugs game.
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I do not agree about living in Ukraine. I understand how many do not like the quality of life. I look at it as camping. I like the second world atmosphere. There are many problems but I prefer them to life in the USA. I also like how easily and cheaply a great vacation can be from there. I am very happy to get on a crowded, freezing cold bus while a cute dev is pressing her full bod behind mine :). I have always loved it even when the hot water and heat goes out every spring. I love the people, the unexpected, the corruption. There are others like me. One time a brick fell three stories off a building to land 2 yards behind me on a sidewalk and I have been attacked by huge drunk Russians. I tripped flat on my face over one small pipe that ran across the sidewalk probably 30 times late at night. There are bad points even for me but I see it as excitement in an overly boring life.
Scott
Everyone's different I guess, so who am I to tell you what makes life interesting. That said.....these are not reason's why life is better. Most people who live there would love to leave these problems behind given a chance, and I dont mean flee their home land. If you love this lifestyle join the army!!
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No matter what, I love Ukraine for giving the world Borsh :-* :bow:
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I'm sorry, I know your heart is in the right place but you're more wrong than right; I guess if you're only 25 it's understandable.
I'm close to ChrisE's age and I've restarted my life a few times over the years; dropped out of school from early teens, started college at 21 and uni at 23, lived and worked in 4 different countries and now settled here in Norway, this is my 2nd marriage...
In my mid-40's I can honestly say that starting again from scratch in a country where I had little clue of the language and culture with probably no possibility of getting a decent job, wouldn't even be an option no matter how "bad" it was at home. (:) Sure, it could be done but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that it would be better.
ChrisE sounds like he's making decisions based on desperation and hopelessness rather than rational objectivity which decisions like this have to be based on. What he needs to do is fix himself and his attitude so that he's not, as Andrew so rightly stated, running away from something.
The grass is always greener they say but it rarely is, especially when viewed through the eyes of desperation.
Thats why i put the footnote: i have no idea about the dynamics of life when you are around your 40s and beyond.
Hell, i know nothing about life, i myself am far from anything i could call 'substantial'.
So dont want to come across as mr know-it-all (or ChrisE's spokesperson haha).. just ranting from a cafe in cold Odessa and enjoying the many POV's!
Perhaps I'm being redundant in saying this but I'll reiterate it anyway; no matter how "bad" it is in his home country he's got a head start because 1) he knows the language, 2) knows the culture, 3) has much better chance of getting a job that pays enough to have a reasonable life. Yes, all these things can be had in an FSU country if you are determined, lucky, skilled enough and if you have the time to develop the required basics that he has by default in his home country. By the mid-forties, time is kinda not on your side and it will be an uphill struggle for him get to where he is now let alone to surpass it.
The way I see it, it would be far simpler, easier and much more doable to fix his life in his own country than try to make another in a country with far less potential.
Ade, I completely agree and was thinking about posting similar.
Chris, life is essentially what you make of it, and regardless of what anyone sais here, your possibly more than capable of starting over in a new world. That said, the chances of doing this successfully are greatly increased if you decide to have an re-birth within your own borders. You live in a huge country, with many options to start over and for the reasons Ade described earlier, it would be smart to try here first or maybe another English speaking country. There's no excuse for you living in the US and thinking there's nothing for you there.
Nobody should be living their life simply to exist, for me thats just a waste of skin, but think about how complicated your challenge ahead lie's with or without Olga. Be honest with yourself, can you do this on your own and have you the drive to succeed? Don't put all your eggs in one basket and rely on the relationship with Olga being your pillar of strength, these dynamics could become your downfall. Be prepared and willing to make this transition alone. This isn't about her integrity but more the facts of life and not being self sufficient always leaves you open.
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One and all, :dh: :dh: :dh:
Unless ChrisE has an epiphany he will move to Lugansk and give this a go with Olga.
If this is a wise move it is another matter. We can complain and cajole him till the cows come home, but we are beginning to sound like old grumpy babushka's. Perhaps we should give suggestions and pointers on what to do and not do it seems like this would be more helpful for him at this juncture.
AvHdB
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I know that what little security I have here (how much do we REALLY have anyway?) is borinig me to death. I go to work 5 days a week, and spend the rest of my time just existing.
It really sounds like the stereotyped midlife crisis. Just existing can be good when compared to other options such as just dying :-X
Sure, I have hobbies and such, but without someone in life to enjoy being with and doing things together-to celebrate the good times, the triumphs, etc or to have a companion and support when things go terribly wrong in life, what really is the point? Yes, I have a "life", but it sure feels empty without someone to share it with.
Are you sure you are not rushing into things simply because you received a little female companionship?
A culture that I truly felt at home with, and very comfortable with.
How can you truly feel at home in a culture where you do not speak the language and have spent at best a couple of weeks ???
I know exactly how he feels because I feel the same. It's just a really huge draw
There have been more than a few who have done it, but few stay for the long haul. There was one fellow from another forum who lived years in the Ukraine, but eventually went back, being divorced by his wife shortly afterwards. Another fellow lived years in Russia, opened an agency, but eventually had to go back to Canada. There are others. The question is whether when (and I would say for almost all guys it is when not if) you go back, you will be able to piece together the pieces. Will the contacts that you have be lost, will your past work experience be meaningless, will you have preexisting health conditions in 5 or 10 years that will make it difficult for you to get health care as an American, etc.... If things go awry, you may come to yearn for "just existing." The going off on adventures is good when you are in your 20s and have yet to establish a career, doing it when you are in your mid-40s makes any return back home years later with no marketable job skills or experience acquired in your absence quite a hurdle IMHO...
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I think many who have posted in this thread have been nit picking in not very complimentary ways such as the comments about her age, thin lips and dyed hair. My wife had jet black hair when we met, was a redhead when we married and is a blond now. The only thing I haven't seen was her natural hair color of brown. All those things are immaterial.
As far as Chris moving there I have seen other forum members do that and most end up coming back. Moving there will not be fatal and planes run both ways. I really enjoy the FSU but have no desire to live there. I do agree it will be tougher than he thinks but it's his life.
As far as her neglecting him, it was a last minute trip. I would have been more concerned if the trip had been set in stone for months. Sometimes too, people start off not seeing a future with someone and they grow on them and when you believe your life will be shared with someone your treatment can often change. There are lots of things we don't know and I suspect her behavior may have improved as the trip wore on. I do agree some of the early events are a little concerning. Sometimes a life that is empty seems pretty bad but a life with the wrong person can be far worse (I don't know if she is or is not the wrong person so that is a general comment)
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There have been more than a few who have done it, but few stay for the long haul. There was one fellow from another forum who lived years in the Ukraine, but eventually went back, being divorced by his wife shortly afterwards. Another fellow lived years in Russia, opened an agency, but eventually had to go back to Canada. There are others.
We were posting at the same time. I was thinking of the exact same people when I posted a general comment about people coming back. The Canadian that sticks in my mind the most rather than Phil (the one with the agency) that you mentioned was Richard who had to collect donations from the forum members to get himself back to Canada. It can end up pretty badly so it is not a decision to make without thinking things through.
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Richard who had to collect donations from the forum members to get himself back to Canada. It can end up pretty badly so it is not a decision to make without thinking things through.
I did not know about the donations. He was fortunate in that Alberta was booming and he was able to get a job in spite of his decision to go live in Russia. If he had returned to a location where the economy was not so hot, it would have been a lot worse :(
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IMHO, If your going, no problem,, but you need to do this not different than planning a trip there.
Plan A -
how much money do you need for two years, and how fast can you learn the language, plus , get all the info right before you go, check and double check. ( horror stories of guys have bought things. property to find out few months later they no longer owned it) the system is corrupt, if you realize and understand it,, then you can use it, if not it will use you!
Plan- B you get there and all hell breaks loose, business won't work ? Girl says piss off? etc. Now what?????
Plan -C exit strategy, it goes about as bad as it can and you have to come home, why not prepare for this also.
If things work out great then no problem, if they don't you have money, etc. for this to do what is needed.
I have looked at going there and have few ideas, if I decided to do it today, would take me two to three years before I could go and do it right. So do sell everything and jump on a plane and say hey I am here, all is good is crazy :thumbsup:
But hey if your crazy go for it, will be one hell of a story :
I think Minimum $50k plus business set up costs, alow for red tape like you have never seen before and few k for bribes :nod:
Another 50K sitting in a bank back home no one knows about, so exit money and enough to live once home, till you are working again etc. ( hey if works out you got 50K for whatever in 5 years maybe even buy an apartment over there then.
But I wouldn't move with any less from north america, one of the easiest places in the world to make money:))))
I know people who have done it, I am sure others here know many who can give you solid advice on what to do and expect... if your serious be serious and at least give yourself a decent chance
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Scott, how many years have you been living in Ukraine?
I lose track of time. Have had two full passports with extensions over twelve years. Roughly 6 years Russia with the two MOB agencies and the laundromat (volgograd/saratov) and 4 years Ukraine (Kharkov) with the coffee corner and manicure shop. Somewhere in there 1-3 months in each of most of the East Europe countries mostly waiting for visas or tourism.
Scott
Scott, I had no clue you was in Xapkib. If I've known that, I would have called you for a cocktail or two, my treat. I'm planning to go this summer. You game for a drink? Let me know.
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[Mod edit: Out of context]
Chris, NSO up thread had a very good point :thumbsup: ~ Reply #328.
You should have some sort of plan A, B, & C. I tend to doubt that you will have any where near the $50,000 mentioned based on what I have heard and read but I hope you have some sort of cushion if this goes pear shaped.
Part of me suspects that not so much to prove to RUA but to your former wife that you can make a success of this is driving your actions. So you know this can be a good or very bad motivation.
AvHdB
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[Mod edit -Out of context]
To Chris, once more, please make sure you have the resources to do this. DO NOT go thinking you will find a job. Even if you have money, you'll be depending on her for almost everything.
And then again, I know a retired guy who moved to Crimea to be with his (much younger) honey about ten years ago. The last I heard of him (recently) he is still honeymooning.
Good luck!
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Did I just break a bunch of forum rules by doing this? hopefully not. Like the
instructions on how to assemble something I never read them unless I can't
get it put together.
http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/347504-live-abroad-and-get-married-implications-on-a-future-k-3/
;D
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The Canadian that sticks in my mind the most rather than Phil (the one with the agency) that you mentioned was Richard who had to collect donations from the forum members to get himself back to Canada.
He should of just got in touch with the CDN embassy in Moscow. They would of given him a ticket to Canada where he would then surrender his passport until he repaid the ticket price.
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[Mod edit-Out of context]
I really appreciate the well intentioned advice,and the words of warning. I do take them for what they are worth, and consider them accordingly. I personally don't see relocating to Ukraine for the right woman as being the worst idea, but rather something that will be challenging and an adventure. Even the famous people in history were often questioned about their sanity before the fact, but hailed as heros later for having the balls to take the chance. On that scale, my endeavor is very minor and something many people have done in the past.
Of course nothing is written in stone yet. I still have many questions unanswered, and still seriously thinking of meeting with Anna very soon to see if things are different, and to put everything into perspective. It's something I need to do for myself to verify my feelings for both women, and see how different life could be with someone else. Until I say the "I do's" , I still have options and much to learn. But after the way this TR has gone, I don't forsee doing one for my trip to Nikolayev or anything after.
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ChrisE,
Hopefully you feel better. Now you can enjoy the "status" of 500 + posts.
While all of us hope that you consider carefully what you contemplate I wish that the future is kind to you.
AvHdB
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Of course nothing is written in stone yet. I still have many questions unanswered, and still seriously thinking of meeting with Anna very soon to see if things are different, and to put everything into perspective. It's something I need to do for myself to verify my feelings for both women, and see how different life could be with someone else. Until I say the "I do's" , I still have options and much to learn. But after the way this TR has gone, I don't forsee doing one for my trip to Nikolayev or anything after.
I sure don't blame you for not wanting to share future things after this TR has created so much controversy but I will say it has been one of the more interesting threads I have read in a while. One other thing it has done is earned you a lot of respect in my book for the way you handled yourself after some comments that were to me very rude and uncalled for. I am glad that it has not totally discouraged you because a forum like this can be a great way to learn and not need to make the same mistake others have made.
I think moving someplace like Ukraine could be an interesting adventure but may have pitfalls that one is not aware of until you look into it more. When my wife and I were in the K-1 stage and it hit snags we also thought about moving to someplace different. Perhaps not her country but a third country. We did make one trip to evaluate the possibilty of living in Sochi but didn't really like it that well there. When I was looking for possible sites to live together I was a little surprised how difficult some places were to move to.
Whatever you decide to do I am sure it will be done carefully and wisely.
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I've cleaned the topic of the various off topic and inflammatory posts that found it's way into the last six pages or so.
Please keep this TR on topic and the rhetoric civil.
Brass
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Chris,
Andrew has a talent for dispensing the unvarnished truth. Interestingly, his inferiors (some of whom are not even bright enough to put one word in front of the other) bitch and moan about him, yet offer essentially the same advice as he does. I won't offer you any relationship advice because that has already been thoroughly addressed. I will tell you something about rationalization, however: it won't work forever and running away from an issue will not be therapeutic.
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Chris, don't rule out writing about your future experiences and sharing them. You have received much good advice and you have followed some of it. Your situation would have been worse than it is now had you not shared and received.
Also, if things do not go as you imagine they might, you may well find that writing and sharing form very good therapy and help you to refocus your energies into a useful and profitable direction.
A sensible and wise person one told me that writing helps us to reprogram our minds in a way that solitary thought, or even talking, can not do. If this goes the way that many posters have suggested it will then you will have a fair amount of reprogramming to do
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Absolutely. You can try this exercise.
When you are very emotional, record what you want to say. Don't stop to think about it, just say it.
THEN, sit down and write what you want to say. Compare. Big difference.
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Andrew, actually I do write quite often, though most of it will not be for the forum. I agree it's theraputic, and helps me put things into perspective. This can be everything from making lists comparing advantages and disadvantages of options or for making a decision, or it can be a full blown write-up of my current situations. Most often I delete them after writing because once it's done there's no need to keep it-but the job has been done.
I actually have sat down with Olga and made up such a list comparing the advantages and disadvantages of living in either the US or in Ukraine in our particular situation. We tried to think up every important concern or things of life value we could think of. Sure, the US has many better physical things to enhance the standard of living, but most are available in Ukraine as well. But the most important things to us are the ones you just can't buy, and Ukraine wins this part this hands down. So that's why the decisions were made the way they were. I am not going to ge into the details as many of them are personal between us as individuals, a future couple, and family, which are not for public scrutiny. Just be assured that much thought and consideration has gone into this dcision.
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Chris, writing and talking can be good, helps clear the mind. if you write basics here it can help you and others, considering what happen on this report, not sure I blame you as this TR and how it unfolded changed my views on what I would say in public form if anything. But If you don't trust the masses, you can always PM
a few you have come to trust, I know there some and they can help you also.
many ways to get advice here, good luck in all you decide :thumbsup:
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Andrew has a talent for dispensing the unvarnished truth. Interestingly, his inferiors (some of whom are not even bright enough to put one word in front of the other) bitch and moan about him, yet offer essentially the same advice as he does.
So if some members offer essentially the same advice, what would be the purpose of making the object of his post feel inferior?
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Andrew has a talent for dispensing the unvarnished truth. Interestingly, his inferiors (some of whom are not even bright enough to put one word in front of the other) bitch and moan about him, yet offer essentially the same advice as he does.
So if some members offer essentially the same advice, what would be the purpose of making the object of his post feel inferior?
Who are you quoting here Mendy? Must we guess?
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Andrew has a talent for dispensing the unvarnished truth. Interestingly, his inferiors (some of whom are not even bright enough to put one word in front of the other) bitch and moan about him, yet offer essentially the same advice as he does.
So if some members offer essentially the same advice, what would be the purpose of making the object of his post feel inferior?
Who are you quoting here Mendy? Must we guess?
Mighty Tom
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Andrew has a talent for dispensing the unvarnished truth. Interestingly, his inferiors (some of whom are not even bright enough to put one word in front of the other) bitch and moan about him, yet offer essentially the same advice as he does.
So if some members offer essentially the same advice, what would be the purpose of making the object of his post feel inferior?
Who are you quoting here Mendy? Must we guess?
Wow do you not realise its one of the untouchables (:)
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Richard who had to collect donations from the forum members to get himself back to Canada. It can end up pretty badly so it is not a decision to make without thinking things through.
I did not know about the donations. He was fortunate in that Alberta was booming and he was able to get a job in spite of his decision to go live in Russia. If he had returned to a location where the economy was not so hot, it would have been a lot worse :(
ChrisE's trip report has been derailed enough, so I started a thread here
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=16106.new#new
about issues of moving to Ukraine, starting a business etc.
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I actually have sat down with Olga and made up such a list comparing the advantages and disadvantages of living in either the US or in Ukraine in our particular situation. We tried to think up every important concern or things of life value we could think of. Sure, the US has many better physical things to enhance the standard of living, but most are available in Ukraine as well. But the most important things to us are the ones you just can't buy, and Ukraine wins this part this hands down. So that's why the decisions were made the way they were. I am not going to ge into the details as many of them are personal between us as individuals, a future couple, and family, which are not for public scrutiny. Just be assured that much thought and consideration has gone into this dcision.
I have no problem with everything being private but why have any TR at all if the most simple of things are too private to mention? You cannot even say why you decided on living in Ukraine? You cannot give pro and con on living in the US? I am starting to believe that you have not talked about anything together.
Scott
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Andrew has a talent for dispensing the unvarnished truth. Interestingly, his inferiors (some of whom are not even bright enough to put one word in front of the other) bitch and moan about him, yet offer essentially the same advice as he does.
So if some members offer essentially the same advice, what would be the purpose of making the object of his post feel inferior?
It appears that we are not on the same page.
Did you think that I was trying to make Chris feel inferior?
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Did you think that I was trying to make Chris feel inferior?
Not at all.
I can think of only one member who not only questioned in a classless manner, but made rude comments about masturbation to Chris. That certainly wasn't you.
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Andrew has a talent for dispensing the unvarnished truth. Interestingly, his inferiors (some of whom are not even bright enough to put one word in front of the other) bitch and moan about him, yet offer essentially the same advice as he does. I won't offer you any relationship advice because that has already been thoroughly addressed. I will tell you something about rationalization, however: it won't work forever and running away from an issue will not be therapeutic.
Not from where I'm sitting.
Andrew seems to use excess verbage coupled with sarcasm to say what other members were able to say in a much simpler, courteous and straight-forward manner.
The "bitching and moaning" seem to be an appeal to decency.
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Chris,
I hope that you have the courage to continue posting about your relationship. Call me crazy but I don't think that the complaints about Andrew are helping you and the two of you seem to be not on the worst of terms.
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Chris, I hope that you have the courage to continue posting about your relationship.
As Tom mentions and also Andrew upthread we hope that you continue to share your insights and expierences - for different reasons I think some of us have learned and othes have new questions regarding there search and options.
AvHdB
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Chris, been reading this post after our chat .... must say I do agree with what others advised to you here and concerns/questions they raised. And to be honest if you decide to go ahead and move to Ukraine, prepare not just plan A, B, C but not less then full A to Z spectrum of options. If you have any questions about Ukraine that I may help with, plz feel free to drop me message tiphat
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Thanks for all the suggestions, and hoping for the best for me. But plans have changed and at least for now. I have a chance to get my kids back, maybe even full custody. But this won't happen if i am out of the country. So Olga has agreed to come live in the US, at least for a couple years until she gets her US passport and we can get the kids out of the system.
The plans now are that I will go to Ukraine at the end of March when we will get married. I had been promised a couple extra (unpaid) weeks from work for this because the management made that promise not ever expecting me to actually get married. But they are at least so far holding to their word. I am currently trying to tie up some loose ends here in the states, and find a place to live that is suitable for having a family. This will be a bit more work as I had been working the past year towards the end of moving overseas eventually, so have bought very little to replace everything I had lost when I got away from my ex. So I will need even the basics like furniture and dishes, everything for a home. I even will have to see about getting a car again eventually, a I figured I wouldn't need one here if i was to live overseas. So it is a major shift in objectives.
At least I will be able to eventually parade an incredibly beautiful woman around the neighborhood and make my friends and family jealous-they know my ex, and thought I would never meet a good woman. Now I am really getting excited about the future since a plan of action has finally been established and I have a solid goal to work towards. So to all those who say moving overseas can't be done in most cases, I still beg to differ-and the plan is that we will still live in Ukraine eventually-just not this year. So it gives me much more time to learn Russian and get a good working business established fo a solid income when the time comes.
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glad to hear Chris
good luck
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Chris, you will be hard pressed to get married in Ukraine in two weeks unless you do some Illegal things.
or plan on some very big bribes:))
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Thanks for all the suggestions, and hoping for the best for me. But plans have changed and at least for now. I have a chance to get my kids back, maybe even full custody. But this won't happen if i am out of the country.
Best wishes in this endeavor Chris. My kids are still very small and I can't imagine this situation.
So Olga has agreed to come live in the US, at least for a couple years until she gets her US passport and we can get the kids out of the system.
You are a bigger man than I. With everything you have going on with your kids I cant imagine mixing in a relationship to this pile of stress.
The plans now are that I will go to Ukraine at the end of March when we will get married. I had been promised a couple extra (unpaid) weeks from work for this because the management made that promise not ever expecting me to actually get married. But they are at least so far holding to their word. I am currently trying to tie up some loose ends here in the states, and find a place to live that is suitable for having a family. This will be a bit more work as I had been working the past year towards the end of moving overseas eventually, so have bought very little to replace everything I had lost when I got away from my ex. So I will need even the basics like furniture and dishes, everything for a home. I even will have to see about getting a car again eventually, a I figured I wouldn't need one here if i was to live overseas. So it is a major shift in objectives.
Chris to be fair to yourself/family and woman please read the support required for your future partner once they have immigrated. Your woman will require a huge effort on your part to make the transition successful. How can you do this given what you have on your plate? Only you know if your relationship is strong enough to survive the demands that will be on you for the next two years.
At least I will be able to eventually parade an incredibly beautiful woman around the neighborhood and make my friends and family jealous-they know my ex, and thought I would never meet a good woman.
Kind of shallow Chris. Do you honestly think anyone cares who you are parading around? Don't be surprised if instead of the desired response above you face quite a negative stigma associated with MOB relationships. The later will require a strong secure and supportive partner for his FSU princess.
Now I am really getting excited about the future since a plan of action has finally been established and I have a solid goal to work towards.
Good luck Chris. It's good to read you are excited about your future. The opportunity to have custody rights, full or not, has got to feel amazing. My prayers will be with you to get through this endeavor a happy man.
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Kind of shallow Chris. Do you honestly think anyone cares who you are parading around? Don't be surprised if instead of the desired response above you face quite a negative stigma associated with MOB relationships. The later will require a strong secure and supportive partner for his FSU princess.
+++++
Chris, I'd suggest you ask your lawyer if your potential marriage to a UW who is living abroad for whom you'll have to do a K-1/K-3, and the possibility you could be deposed on how you met, how long you have spent together, etc., could affect your custody.
Let's face it, to most Americans, even a court, this is unusual, even "flaky". Perhaps you need to delay this until the custody issue is resolved?
Also, do you think your children need to come first? Don't you think, if they've been living away from you, it will take time for them to adjust? How will they adjust to living with you again, and then, shortly thereafter, having to adjust to a stepmother that you are also adjusting to living with? Just food for thought.
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Thanks for all the suggestions, and hoping for the best for me. But plans have changed and at least for now. I have a chance to get my kids back, maybe even full custody. But this won't happen if i am out of the country. So Olga has agreed to come live in the US, at least for a couple years until she gets her US passport and we can get the kids out of the system.
The plans now are that I will go to Ukraine at the end of March when we will get married. I had been promised a couple extra (unpaid) weeks from work for this because the management made that promise not ever expecting me to actually get married. But they are at least so far holding to their word. I am currently trying to tie up some loose ends here in the states, and find a place to live that is suitable for having a family. This will be a bit more work as I had been working the past year towards the end of moving overseas eventually, so have bought very little to replace everything I had lost when I got away from my ex. So I will need even the basics like furniture and dishes, everything for a home. I even will have to see about getting a car again eventually, a I figured I wouldn't need one here if i was to live overseas. So it is a major shift in objectives.
At least I will be able to eventually parade an incredibly beautiful woman around the neighborhood and make my friends and family jealous-they know my ex, and thought I would never meet a good woman. Now I am really getting excited about the future since a plan of action has finally been established and I have a solid goal to work towards. So to all those who say moving overseas can't be done in most cases, I still beg to differ-and the plan is that we will still live in Ukraine eventually-just not this year. So it gives me much more time to learn Russian and get a good working business established fo a solid income when the time comes.
Chris, this statement of yours makes it plain that you have not resolved the many issues from your previous relationship and that it still dominates your emotional spectrum. Sadly, I think that you are not far enough removed from your past to be able to embark on a new future with a new partner and make a go of it. You need to have come to terms with the demise of your past relationship and have complete emotional detachment. It's pretty obvious that there is a lot of stuff going on which you have deep feelings about, not least issues surrounding the abuse you say you have suffered and also to do with your kids. Taking this with you into a new relationship is a recipe for disaster under any circumstance but when you add to the mix the fact that your new love interest is from a completely different culture and continent, speaks a different language and will be completely reliant on you for support and succour for a length of time, I feel the odds are stacked against you. I also feel that you are using this new relationship as a weapon in your 'War of the Roses' and to boost your own ego.
I am sorry for writing so bluntly. Please, think and think again.
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In the UK we have to show how our relationship developed and grew, our commitment to each other our visits with each other etc
Not sure if you have to show this in the USA but if we showed you relationship no skype or little just letters, then visit at new year, then letters, then marriage. I am more than sure we would be refused on the grounds of you know nothing about each other and this is a sham marriage
other might concur differently over what is in effect a 4 month relationship.
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It's a parody of a cliché. How not to do it in 3 easy steps.
If it wasn't all so funny I'd be crying right about now.
I just hope the kids will not be too damaged by this nutty behaviour. And he said his ex was the nut. Uh huh. Sure. (:)
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other might concur differently over what is in effect a 4 month relationship.
Where on earth did you get 4 months from. He went there for 1 week and saw her for perhaps 10% of the time. He's not even advanced enough to be called a one week wonder.
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Chris, just who is writing your script?
Much of what you have written has been daft, wrongheaded and stupid.
Much of what you have written has suggested, to me at least, that there is, at the least, an undercurrent of something not quite right with your mental wiring.
Nothing that you have written has been repugnant...
...until now.
You are planning to marry a woman with the purpose of punishing your former wife and validating your perceived status with your family and friends - who you tell us you actually have little contact with.
This is horrible.
There is no way that this woman in Ukraine will know the purpose to which you intend to use her. If she did then, almost no matter how desperate she might be, she'd reject you and I am sure that on some level you know that. You will continue to lie to Olga about your purposes.
This is a cruel thing you are planning to do.
And yet, while you are trying to alienate still further your friends and family, you are bringing your kids into the mix. Using them as tools in your ongoing relationship with your wife.
This is disgusting.
Chris, let me say this to you, straight and honest:
If you can not see what is wrong with your proposal as written down by yourself then you truly need professional help with understanding what is going on in your head.
This is not about depression or stress. This is abuse.
Olga may have mistreated you in Ukraine, but what you are proposing goes well beyond anything she might have done to you. Please do not punish her and your kids for your pain, none of them deserve it.
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Andrew, somehow u managed to read my vision of situation at distance ... ;D
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Chris,
I almost suspect there are two of you. One the yearning for something better and the other I am going to prove everyone wrong.
Sorry this may not be pretty.
But the reality is you can not afford a trophy. Further I have very little respect for women who see themselves as a trophy. I suspect if Olga sees your last post and understands what you write she will tell you to go back to what ever small planet you came from.
This may be harsh but I would take the last two or three pages of this thread and show them to some one you trust in your environment, perhaps a person in the clergy or a therapist. Listen to there opinion after they understand your situation. Perhaps the Moderators can send you the entire thread.
You do not have to be an Andrew to see that what you describe is not healthy.
Further if your ex or her council see this thread ~ you are toast. Halo tiphat was being polite. You will be KFC flaky.
AvHdB
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Kind of shallow Chris. Do you honestly think anyone cares who you are parading around? Don't be surprised if instead of the desired response above you face quite a negative stigma associated with MOB relationships. The later will require a strong secure and supportive partner for his FSU princess.
+++++
Not only agree this is the worst reason for getting married to her, SHE WILL KNOW you are doing it for the same reason. When (not if) it gets to that point, make sure your lawyer is still available.
Chris, I'd suggest you ask your lawyer if your potential marriage to a UW who is living abroad for whom you'll have to do a K-1/K-3, and the possibility you could be deposed on how you met, how long you have spent together, etc., could affect your custody.
Let's face it, to most Americans, even a court, this is unusual, even "flaky". Perhaps you need to delay this until the custody issue is resolved?
FYI, it didn't matter (court wise) diddly here in NYS.
Halo, it will be "flaky" no matter what but, he should definitely settle the custody first.
Also, do you think your children need to come first? Don't you think, if they've been living away from you, it will take time for them to adjust? How will they adjust to living with you again, and then, shortly thereafter, having to adjust to a stepmother that you are also adjusting to living with? Just food for thought.
Agree.
What about Olga. Do you REALLY know what are her feelings regarding your children?
Slow down a bit and get her and your children time to absorb this. Trust me, it will be extremely stressful for her when she gets here and adding children (and as a consequence, ex-wife) to the mixture will mostly guarantee a failed marriage.
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Andrew, somehow u managed to read my vision of situation at distance ... ;D
As of now it is hard to imagine that anyone, no matter how insensitive and empathy deficient they may be is not finally coming to understand that Chris is, shall we say, 'a little damaged'.
You, Millaa, are neither insensitive or lacking in empathy.
I hope that Chris does take some action to protect himself, Olga, his kids and those around him - but I expect that he will not.
PS. for those who doubt that there is anything going wrong here, take a look at ChrisE's posts. Note how they have become increasingly self centred, how he is using other people to enhance his goals.
I dunno about some of you, but in my world, a measure of our love for a person is by what we do to enhance the happiness of those we claim to love; NOT how we use others to enhance our own happiness.
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Chris be sure she has a few very nice sets of heels, nothing gives advance notice to cafe sippin people watchers, than the clickity clack as she approaches the outside patio. And with you at her side holding her index finger and walking proudly. To show her off and impress others you'll be sure she packs all her extra short mini skirts, you know the ones that just cover the ass, that should get the people in your outer circle talkin. :thumbsup:
Even Denzel Washington won't be able to stop this runaway train..
PS: I hope you will keep us updated as the months go by, we are all wanting to know how it goes. :snivel:
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You people just wont let up. One wrong sentence and now we have a self centered guy on route for a train wreck. Most of you look for beauty in a woman but none of you wish to show-off a beautiful woman? And Chris has not been known to be a great writer so I would not put too much weight on one sentence.
I would do anything in the world for my second half but I sure as hell would also like to take her to a class reunion.
Look, poor Chris has no direction. His plan will change with the wind because there is no plan really. His plan for the future now is not going to work either. If his plans will not work then is it not enough to just say so and leave the character destruction out of it?
Any one of you who wishes to act as a therapist to Chris has failed miserably and perhaps caused more damage than there was to begin with.
1. Chris is going the route of a marriage visa and it will be some time before this woman will arrive, if ever. You are not likely able to change this though you can try. More likely it will be the waiting time and whatever events happen during that time that might change things here.
2. As the wind blows for Chris it is just as likely that he will not get child custody and that this is just a fleeting fantasy moment. No need to get all worked up over something that has not yet happened and you are not going to change anything here anyway. You probably should not even get involved and would not listen if anyone got involved in your custody matters.
3. If he does get custody his priorities will change, his life will change. If the woman does get to the USofA there will be other changes. There is as much potential for growth and good as there is for disaster and that is life.
It has never been wise to to tell a person what to do especially when they do not wish to listen or are not ready to. You only block the path to help.
4. In the end, nobody is going to move to Ukraine with children in tow so that fantasy is dead.
If the woman comes to the USofA she probably will not want to return after three years.
There is so much you do not know. There is nothing you can do about what you do know. You all still wish to help Chris and that is fine. I think he should be damned just for looking for a foreign woman. There are 100 million fat women that will stand behind me on this.
Lets all form a circle and call him names.
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baglia, Chris has posted in the past that the state has been involved in his children's lives. He has posted pretty strong things about his ex. Now imagine bringing a foreign wife, who does not speak English, has never had children, who comes from a culture where stepmothering is not particularly common, and where stepmothers do not, generally, want to raise their husbands' children.
Have you brought a foreign spouse to the West? Dealt with the thousands of little things, let alone the big things, that frustrate the foreign spouse? Did you do this without a common language? Did you understand the possible frustrations in dealing with different social structure, different relations between people, different working relationships, etc.? Did you have kids and an ex who "will be jealous" (imagine how well she will take to a custody battle, let alone possibly losing custody and a new, foreign stepmom in the picture) in the background? Do you believe any of the above factors could be a pressure on a marriage, particularly a new marriage?
Why not deal with the children first? That is what being a parent is about, incidentally, putting your child's needs above yours. Why such a rush? Why not deal with the custody issues (substantially, at least), and stabilize his children's lives? Advise his fiancee of this hiccup. If she loves him, and vice versa, waiting will not affect the relationship.
A little more than six months ago, Chris was posting about his great love for another UW, and querying how, as a non Christian, he could get married in an Orthodox ceremony (his conclusion, a direct quote - "fudge the truth"). And now, half a year later, he has moved on to the next "great love" of his life, who will magically love his children, cope with his ex wife, adjust to a new culture, and do so all while learning English. It is a recipe for disaster which is based on fantasy or, at the very least, a lot of hope. I would say go for it were it not for the children. What happens if the pressures are too much? The children are the ones who, again, pay the price.
While I wish Chris well, there are too many boxes to check off as "trouble" to not see major problems ahead. The issue is not to dissuade him but rather, for Chris to plant his feet on the ground, not in the clouds.
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Now imagine bringing a foreign wife, who does not speak English, has never had children, who comes from a culture where stepmothering is not particularly common, and where stepmothers do not, generally, want to raise their husbands' children.
Hi Halo,
I agree with all you have said. I am curious about the statement above. I know there is an issue with men and children, but I did not know that being a stepmother was a problem. I do not have any children, so it isn't an issue for me (I have two basset hounds :) ) Can you expand upon that statement above?
Just my own curiosity.
Thanks,
Lee
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Bagalia, nobody here is trying to act as therapist. I doubt that any therapist would work with Chris through forum posts anyway.
What I have tried to suggest and have emphasized is that, as Chris has written, there are, IMHO, based upon common sense, experience and a little learning, some big red flags being run up flagpoles. As a result of those big red flags I and some others have suggested that some external assistance might well be handy. There is no loss to Chris in seeking an objective look at the situation from an empathetic outsider.
Yes, he might well ignore any suggestions, I have already noted that this is likely, but I WILL NOT be the one to say nothing and then say 'oh never mind, how sad, it was sooo obvious there was something wrong' when he ends up in Ukraine in some homeless persons shelter, or worse.
Knowing that a warning is likely to be ignored never has been a good reason to not make a warning.
Truly I wonder about some of the people who post here.
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Now imagine bringing a foreign wife, who does not speak English, has never had children, who comes from a culture where stepmothering is not particularly common, and where stepmothers do not, generally, want to raise their husbands' children.
Hi Halo,
I agree with all you have said. I am curious about the statement above. I know there is an issue with men and children, but I did not know that being a stepmother was a problem. I do not have any children, so it isn't an issue for me (I have two basset hounds :) ) Can you expand upon that statement above?
Just my own curiosity.
Thanks,
Lee
In an environment where resources are limited then the stepmother is very likely to seek to ensure that her own offspring are looked after as a priority over any other kids.
Her take, in evolutionary terms is that SHE is passing on the father's genes to the future and therefore there is no need to be concerned about any previous offspring. The father's genes are protected and are matched with hers.
So, when a father has limited resources the new mother will do her best to ensure the maximum possible allocation to her kids (or potential kids). I have seen this in practice here, it is kinda normal and sometimes a little sad for both the kids and the father but it makes perfect sense.
A lifetime of experience, culture and custom is likely to make it very hard for any woman whose eggs are reaching boiling point to accept some other woman's sprogs as her own. She will be as round heeled as she needs to be in order to ensure that she gets her eggs into action as soon as possible.
Being a sensible woman she will undoubtedly make kissy face with any kids and be very enthusiastic about her man's fantasies while all the while doing her best to ensure that the man's aspirations remain fantasy.
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In an environment where resources are limited then the stepmother is very likely to seek to ensure that her own offspring are looked after as a priority over any other kids.
Her take, in evolutionary terms is that SHE is passing on the father's genes to the future and therefore there is no need to be concerned about any previous offspring. The father's genes are protected and are matched with hers.
So, when a father has limited resources the new mother will do her best to ensure the maximum possible allocation to her kids (or potential kids). I have seen this in practice here, it is kinda normal and sometimes a little sad for both the kids and the father but it makes perfect sense.
A lifetime of experience, culture and custom is likely to make it very hard for any woman whose eggs are reaching boiling point to accept some other woman's sprogs as her own. She will be as round heeled as she needs to be in order to ensure that she gets her eggs into action as soon as possible.
Being a sensible woman she will undoubtedly make kissy face with any kids and be very enthusiastic about her man's fantasies while all the while doing her best to ensure that the man's aspirations remain fantasy.
thank God we aren't all same tiphat
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Now imagine bringing a foreign wife, who does not speak English, has never had children, who comes from a culture where stepmothering is not particularly common, and where stepmothers do not, generally, want to raise their husbands' children.
Hi Halo,
I agree with all you have said. I am curious about the statement above. I know there is an issue with men and children, but I did not know that being a stepmother was a problem. I do not have any children, so it isn't an issue for me (I have two basset hounds :) ) Can you expand upon that statement above?
Just my own curiosity.
Thanks,
Lee
Lee, I'm not going to get into a dissertation regarding how lack of resources will affect the human gene pool and all that jazz but, I'll tell you from experience this is what to be expected. What was on my favor were a few things; her knowledge of English, her knowing a former nurse who worked for her and was a stepmom, and the most important, PATIENCE. We had our share of disagreements and arguments over this and it didn't help that the ex was doing everything possible to destroy the relationship. Think about this: going to child court because we took my kids to Disneyworld.
So, he can be sure this is going to happen as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.
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In an environment where resources are limited then the stepmother is very likely to seek to ensure that her own offspring are looked after as a priority over any other kids.
Her take, in evolutionary terms is that SHE is passing on the father's genes to the future and therefore there is no need to be concerned about any previous offspring. The father's genes are protected and are matched with hers.
So, when a father has limited resources the new mother will do her best to ensure the maximum possible allocation to her kids (or potential kids). I have seen this in practice here, it is kinda normal and sometimes a little sad for both the kids and the father but it makes perfect sense.
A lifetime of experience, culture and custom is likely to make it very hard for any woman whose eggs are reaching boiling point to accept some other woman's sprogs as her own. She will be as round heeled as she needs to be in order to ensure that she gets her eggs into action as soon as possible.
Being a sensible woman she will undoubtedly make kissy face with any kids and be very enthusiastic about her man's fantasies while all the while doing her best to ensure that the man's aspirations remain fantasy.
thank God we aren't all same tiphat
No, you're not. But, if you've read a reasonable amount on forums frequented by your fellow FSUW, you'll have noticed from time to time posts that state they hate, despise, are jealous of, or are otherwise unable to like their partner's kids for one reason or another. Some can't even fathom that a man actually wants to be around the kids that he had with his ex and think it's unnatural. Some feel threatened by it. It's not so uncommon from what I've heard (2nd hand from my wife).
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thank God we aren't all same tiphat
No, you're not. But, if you've read a reasonable amount on forums frequented by your fellow FSUW, you'll have noticed from time to time posts that state they hate, despise, are jealous of, or are otherwise unable to like their partner's kids for one reason or another. Some can't even fathom that a man actually wants to be around the kids that he had with his ex and think it's unnatural. Some feel threatened by it. It's not so uncommon from what I've heard (2nd hand from my wife).
I know the issue outlined by andrewfi, but still such "attitude" of women towards step-kids could be found in any country and not just issue in FSUW. I came across it on many occasion in UK as well (environment where resources isn't so limited after all). Perhaps it has to do more with a "bad apple" theory
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It’s my view, born out by real experience, that a lady who already has a child is likely to make a ‘better’ stepmom than a lady who hasn’t.
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I love all the expert opinions, i am learning so much :chuckle:
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Now imagine bringing a foreign wife, who does not speak English, has never had children, who comes from a culture where stepmothering is not particularly common, and where stepmothers do not, generally, want to raise their husbands' children.
Hi Halo,
I agree with all you have said. I am curious about the statement above. I know there is an issue with men and children, but I did not know that being a stepmother was a problem. I do not have any children, so it isn't an issue for me (I have two basset hounds :) ) Can you expand upon that statement above?
Just my own curiosity.
Thanks,
Lee
Lee, I'm not going to get into a dissertation regarding how lack of resources will affect the human gene pool and all that jazz but, I'll tell you from experience this is what to be expected. What was on my favor were a few things; her knowledge of English, her knowing a former nurse who worked for her and was a stepmom, and the most important, PATIENCE. We had our share of disagreements and arguments over this and it didn't help that the ex was doing everything possible to destroy the relationship. Think about this: going to child court because we took my kids to Disneyworld.
So, he can be sure this is going to happen as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.
Muzh,
Fortunately I do not have any children so it isn't an issue with me. I just make sure he loves dogs. ;D But I think it is a little sad to push away any child...
Don't mean to hijack the thread with with my curiosity.
Lee
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Now imagine bringing a foreign wife, who does not speak English, has never had children, who comes from a culture where stepmothering is not particularly common, and where stepmothers do not, generally, want to raise their husbands' children.
Hi Halo,
I agree with all you have said. I am curious about the statement above. I know there is an issue with men and children, but I did not know that being a stepmother was a problem. I do not have any children, so it isn't an issue for me (I have two basset hounds :) ) Can you expand upon that statement above?
Just my own curiosity.
Thanks,
Lee
Ukrainian culture, in general terms, places a high value on the role of the mother. So much so that 15 years ago, it was rare for a caring father to obtain custody of a child even if the mother was an alcoholic who was spending all support payments on boozy parties. That has changed somewhat, but the primary reason UM are not involved in children's lives is because of this attitude, that the child "belongs to/with" the mother. This carries over, in Ukraine, to step parent situations. It is rare for a UW to be in a step parent situation, with full custody of a child.
I am not saying all UW will be bad stepmothers, in fact, I know of two UW, living in Ukraine, who were excellent stepmothers, better than the children's biological mothers (I think I posted about them in the past). But, it isn't the "default position" culturally. It is just another facet to think about in this situation, that's all.
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Now imagine bringing a foreign wife, who does not speak English, has never had children, who comes from a culture where stepmothering is not particularly common, and where stepmothers do not, generally, want to raise their husbands' children.
Hi Halo,
I agree with all you have said. I am curious about the statement above. I know there is an issue with men and children, but I did not know that being a stepmother was a problem. I do not have any children, so it isn't an issue for me (I have two basset hounds :) ) Can you expand upon that statement above?
Just my own curiosity.
Thanks,
Lee
Ukrainian culture, in general terms, places a high value on the role of the mother. So much so that 15 years ago, it was rare for a caring father to obtain custody of a child even if the mother was an alcoholic who was spending all support payments on boozy parties. That has changed somewhat, but the primary reason UM are not involved in children's lives is because of this attitude, that the child "belongs to/with" the mother. This carries over, in Ukraine, to step parent situations. It is rare for a UW to be in a step parent situation, with full custody of a child.
I am not saying all UW will be bad stepmothers, in fact, I know of two UW, living in Ukraine, who were excellent stepmothers, better than the children's biological mothers (I think I posted about them in the past). But, it isn't the "default position" culturally. It is just another facet to think about in this situation, that's all.
Halo,
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it. I hope Chris reads this and acts in the best interests of his children.
Lee
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Halo, you were not included in my "you people" post. There are several good posts that raise solid questions that Chris should think about. My opinion was for those who would ridicule or debase in the name of helping. We already ran the poor chap off the thread once. He comes back and gets it again.
It can be debated that the step mom problem is not limited to the FSU but it is definitely a problem which anyone who has been on the lists long enough can attest to being further worse due to the foreign part of it. A lot of marriages have gone down the tubes because the children and foreign parent do not see eye to eye. The foreign marriage is difficult enough. The differences in how we raise our children can be a deal breaker. Not knowing how the other parent will react to all situations can be a ticking bomb. The children are forced into the loop and didn't ask for any of this.
If Chris is interested in this and is set on going the longer marriage visa route then he may wish to get everyone together before it is too late to turn back (meaning her with 2 feet in the states). There will be time to do this though the money may not be there.
The fiancee visa would possibly be better in regards to the children though what a court might think is also debatable. There are lots of things that are not absolute such as the whole partial or full custody thing but if it is in the cards then he will need to think what should come first and plan accordingly.
One thing I think is for sure. That nothing inescapable is going to happen for the next month or three, maybe six. Plenty of time to make plans, change plans and watch plans get all blown away again.
Scott
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If the alien beneficiary has been married to a U.S. citizen for three years and s/he has been a resident for three years, a N-400 may be filed to apply for naturalization. Otherwise, the waiting period is five years. Lifting the restrictions from a Green Card takes two years.
I'll pass on commenting about the rest of the stuff.
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If the alien beneficiary has been married to a U.S. citizen for three years and s/he has been a resident for three years, a N-400 may be filed to apply for naturalization. Otherwise, the waiting period is five years.
I'll pass on commenting about the rest of the stuff.
How long between filing and getting citizenship? It took a year and a half (give or take) between my wife filing and her hetting her citizenship.
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The processing time is unpredictable but I've never heard of it taking 1.5 years in the U.S.
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Bagalia, nobody here is trying to act as therapist.
Is this a joke or are you being serious? It's hard to tell with you.
A hilarious statement either way :chuckle:
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There is now a separate thread in the ASK A MARRIED GUY area for Canadian citizenship requirements and offering congratulations to Mr and Mrs Rasputin.
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A lot of marriages have gone down the tubes because the children and foreign parent do not see eye to eye. The foreign marriage is difficult enough. The differences in how we raise our children can be a deal breaker. Not knowing how the other parent will react to all situations can be a ticking bomb. The children are forced into the loop and didn't ask for any of this.
+1
Also just as true in reverse with the WM and the children of the RW/UW. These relationships take time and time and time so rushing into a marriage is not a good idea.
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Halo, you were not included in my "you people" post. There are several good posts that raise solid questions that Chris should think about. My opinion was for those who would ridicule or debase in the name of helping.
I agree, with myself included in not helping, but it has become so frustrating watching this guy go about his love quest, that for me I finally had to toss some stupidity his way. Maybe I hope something, anything, that is posted here will sink in to his brain, but again it seems to have no effect.
Just glad it's his life not mine.
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Bagalia, nobody here is trying to act as therapist.
Is this a joke or are you being serious? It's hard to tell with you.
A hilarious statement either way :chuckle:
I was being serious.
Trying to get a bloke to see his situation from a different perspective is not being a therapist, it is what people on a forum dedicated to helping and providing info DO.
Trying to get a bloke to get some objective input from an empathetic outsider is not providing therapy.
In case I have not been reading well enough, or in case your understanding of what a therapist does is very different to most people's, maybe you could give an example or two of posters acting as therapists in this thread in order to provide some context?
I am glad that you think people trying to help a bloke in some obvious distress and pain is worthy of your laughter. You must go down a storm at funerals.
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Andrew, your words on many occasions implied things only a therapist should or is qualified to judge.
It does not mean you were wrong. but without knowing more detail of someones life, for you to
say or assume many of the things you did was wrong. Read the thread again, I think you will see that
And the fact many people responded to your posts in kind.
being right does not give you the right to judge people or tell them to go get help!
If you were that concerned ( as you expressed a few times) you would have done in PM instead of trying to insult
and embarrass Him! If he needs help your approach, likely would do more bad than good, I think several people
Pointed that out to you, but you felt your way was the only way!
The comment about intervention is funny, to say the least, do you know what one is. Do you know the people
Who would do this, why and how? For Chris it would not be anyone here!
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Trying to get a bloke to see his situation from a different perspective is not being a therapist, it is what people on a forum dedicated to helping and providing info DO.
Actually, this is a fair description of good therapy. You help, provide information and try to get a person to see things from a different perspective. A therapist is a helper.
The problem with non-therapist helpers is that they are often too involved, more likely to alienate the other person with labels such as being a little damaged, daft, wrongheaded and stupid or suggesting there is something not quite right with their mental wiring or using descriptions for their actions such as repugnant, horrible, cruel, disgusting.
In reality it is possible that all these things are correct and if you wish to hurt a person you probably should use them but they do not "help". They alienate the person you try to help. To add after the fact that if you cannot see the wisdom above then you truly need to seek professional help is probably more in line with throwing gas on the fire instead of sincerely trying to get a person to seek help.
Scott
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Trying to get a bloke to see his situation from a different perspective is not being a therapist, it is what people on a forum dedicated to helping and providing info DO.
Actually, this is a fair description of good therapy. You help, provide information and try to get a person to see things from a different perspective. A therapist is a helper.
The problem with non-therapist helpers is that they are often too involved, more likely to alienate the other person with labels such as being a little damaged, daft, wrongheaded and stupid or suggesting there is something not quite right with their mental wiring or using descriptions for their actions such as repugnant, horrible, cruel, disgusting.
In reality it is possible that all these things are correct and if you wish to hurt a person you probably should use them but they do not "help". They alienate the person you try to help. To add after the fact that if you cannot see the wisdom above then you truly need to seek professional help is probably more in line with throwing gas on the fire instead of sincerely trying to get a person to seek help.
Scott
+1 well said
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The problem with non-therapist helpers is that they are often too involved, more likely to alienate the other person with labels such as being a little damaged, daft, wrongheaded and stupid or suggesting there is something not quite right with their mental wiring or using descriptions for their actions such as repugnant, horrible, cruel, disgusting.
In reality it is possible that all these things are correct and if you wish to hurt a person you probably should use them but they do not "help". They alienate the person you try to help. To add after the fact that if you cannot see the wisdom above then you truly need to seek professional help is probably more in line with throwing gas on the fire instead of sincerely trying to get a person to seek help.
+2
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Bagalia, nobody here is trying to act as therapist.
Is this a joke or are you being serious? It's hard to tell with you.
A hilarious statement either way :chuckle:
I was being serious.
Trying to get a bloke to see his situation from a different perspective is not being a therapist, it is what people on a forum dedicated to helping and providing info DO.
Trying to get a bloke to get some objective input from an empathetic outsider is not providing therapy.
In case I have not been reading well enough, or in case your understanding of what a therapist does is very different to most people's, maybe you could give an example or two of posters acting as therapists in this thread in order to provide some context?
I am glad that you think people trying to help a bloke in some obvious distress and pain is worthy of your laughter. You must go down a storm at funerals.
You posted a series of 20 questions a few pages back to the OP for the purpose of assessing his psychological well-being.
Now, you're telling us that nobody was trying to be a therapist.
I can't be the only one that's amused by the irony... :coffeeread:
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Halo, you were not included in my "you people" post. There are several good posts that raise solid questions that Chris should think about. My opinion was for those who would ridicule or debase in the name of helping.
I agree, with myself included in not helping, but it has become so frustrating watching this guy go about his love quest, that for me I finally had to toss some stupidity his way. Maybe I hope something, anything, that is posted here will sink in to his brain, but again it seems to have no effect.
Just glad it's his life not mine.
Don I felt similar frustration and made several sarcastic, not helpful comments, reading much of Chris's report up to the point of his last post. When two consenting adults make decisions it is one thing. When children get thrown into the mix, as a dad, my empathy levels raise a fair amount.
At this point all the discussions around Chris and his relation with Olga as well as the side bar distractions of therapist versus non therapist are really meaningless, IMO, in comparison to the children.
If one point could be taken from this whole thread I pray that Chris will put his children first and settle his home life to best resolve this situation(custody). IMHO everybody concerned will be better positioned for long term happiness after this has been resolved.
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WOW, this thread gone full swing from bad to worse! First there is no way I should even consider being with this woman, then it was no way that I should try to make a life in "hell" as Ukraine has been referred to. Next I am damned that things changed because of a court hearing and my lady and I decide that in the best interest of the children she will come here to the US. I just can't seem to win here, and apparently nobody wants to see me try to be happy for once, but rather sit around and judge me and state how much of an idiot I am. All this from taking something out of context, twisting it, and making completely uninformed statements to convict me. Kind of makes me think of a lynch mob carrying torches chasing me from my dungeon.
So let me set a couple things straight:
A) It was the idea of the court for me to persue part or full custody of the children. The current case is against their mother only, since I currently am not even considered a legal parent in this state at this point. The idea of getting married to Olga and having a stable home is also being encouraged by the court and the social workers on the case. The courts have been informed of the situation, and the fact she is from Ukraine is NOT a factor.
B) It was Olga's idea that we try as a couple to gain custody, and she does want to be their stepmom and help raise them We both discussed this at long length, and considered all the factors and possibilities we could think of. We both agree it is for the sake of the children that it is best in the long run, even though we are both at least temporarily giving up our dream of living in Ukraine and making our life there. But it is possible that in the future it can still be done even with the children, and the children we may have in the future.
C) It will not be the first time Olga has helped raise children not her own Olga has helped raise all 5 of her sister's children, and now her oldest niece's baby. So this is not unfamiliar territory for her, and I have been assured of her competence just by our conversations and the things she has asked about my children, and her concerns about how they will adapt to the changing situations.
D) I have discussed the situation with the children's mother, and she is backing my decision. My ex is also behind the idea that the children spend time in Ukraine in the future, learn foreign languages, and maybe even attend school outside the US because it will greatly expand their horizons and give them a much brighter future with more options to be successful in their lives.
E) There is nothing wrong with "showing off" a new beautiful wife! FSUW tend to show off their new guy, so why cant a guy show off his new woman? It's just a matter of pride for me, and I am sure it would really boost the lady's ego. I don't know how this has also gotten so overblown about the fact that going overseas for a wife is taboo. I know that a lot of insecure, fat, and older AW have issues with this, as well as some who have their heads so full of misinformation as to be completely biased. But all my friends, family, coworkers, and professional contacts who know the story have all been very understanding and supportive, even encouraging. So of course I would want to introduce her to these people who actually were behind me all this time.
I will say this once again-nobody here on this forum knows all the facts or all that has been going on. I know many things have not gone "by the book" as far as foreign relationships go-but what does that prove? And who wrote this book anyway, and what makes it gospel? I know a lot of people here were disappointed that I didn't post about some wild New Years party, or uninhibited sex 5 times every day I was in Ukraine, maybe even involving the interpreter just to make it more entertaining or to show Andrewfi that I'm not depressed and in need of his therapy.
But the fact is that even though shit hit the fan and a lot of things went really wrong, I stuck it out because I truly feel that Olga is someone really special. I was there-I met her-I spent time with her-I got to know her as best as possible under the circumstances. I learned that typical FSU "traditions" are NOT the same throughout the country or from person to person. Unlike other women I tried to make relationships with, Olga makes the effort to come on Skype (on time even), she writes often, she shows concern for my well being and happiness, and she always shows her happiness when together, or even on Skype since I returned. She has the qualities I like, want, and respect very much. We share the same thoughts, feelings and values, and also have many of the same goals in life. We compliment each other in more ways than I can count, and have come to have deep feelings for her. So to sum it up-we have the chemistry, the desire, and the comittment to make this relationship work. So I am not doing anything to say "I told you so" or to prove anything to anyone here, but for the reasons of love and the desire to be happy together.
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Chris,
There are those who have encouraged you. You have spent time with Olga and that counts for allot.
But I do not think you have the financial resources and where with all to make this work, either in United States or in Ukraine. Are all your current debts paid?
While we could ask many questions there is a parable in the Bible about the man who started to build a castle, but could not finish it, because . . .
As pointed up thread there are children involved and that changes the dynamics and responsibilities that you assume.
While as I have said before here you will proceed irregardless, but please receive some personal advice from some one who you can trust and fully knows your situation.
AvHdB
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AvHdB, I very much appreciate those who hae supported me and given good advice, but as can be seen all along this thread they are in the minority. Money itself shouldn't be an issue in the future-though at the moment I am in a situation due to not getting paid from work lately because of some administrative problems with the company. This is only a temporary setback, and will all be settled soon. I have very few debts, and nothing major-just a few things I found my ex had run up, and some things I just found about where it appears someone used my identity to make some purchases and possibly even buy property.
Actually I am soon moving in with a friend for a couple months and paying very little so I can save for a down payment on a house, and get things set up before Olga gets here. This of course depending if I can get those new credit issues addressed, but since it is from a place I had not visited in almost 20 years, it should not be difficult. I am also planning to return to Ukraine end of March and try to get a wedding going, which Olga is currently trying to arrange. Everything is moving forward, and positive changes are already happening despite a rough start and the inevetable snags.
Things will never be easy in life, but I think with a good partner that the load will be leveled out a bit and made more tolerable. Without a wife, there is no way I could take care of the kids on my own as I have no family here or anyone else who would be able to help, or be flexible enough to take them while I am working as my hours can change very frequently from days to nights, or sometimes a split shift like I am working now.
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Chris: The negative comments toward you are nothing personal and you should not take it as that. They are coming from guys who have considerably more experience than you and emanate from the fact that you are planning to marry a lady that you have spent very little time with and that you hardly know anything about. To compound this situation, some of what you have described to us would for most guys be humongous red flags that we would run from and we have valid reasons for that.
Giving the above, most people here, including myself, would sincerely wish you the best luck. What you are trying to do is 99% doomed from the start, let’s hope you are one of the exceptions.
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Things will never be easy in life, but I think with a good partner that the load will be leveled out a bit and made more tolerable. Without a wife, there is no way I could take care of the kids on my own as I have no family here or anyone else who would be able to help, or be flexible enough to take them while I am working as my hours can change very frequently from days to nights, or sometimes a split shift like I am working now.
Just that paragraph alone should tell most just how far off centre your current mindset is.
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Chris I hope you find happiness. I can't see how that is possible given the path you have outlined. At the end of the day I believe in my heart that your happiness is secondary to that of the immediate needs of your children, but that is just my opinion.
As for the immigration of Olga, you are underestimating the challenges this presents. She is going to need you, your kids will need you, and you have to work. That's just the way it is man. How are you going to balance all that financially and emotionally? No sarcasm Chris I am glad it's you and not me.
Chris, seriously, how are you communicating all these heavy, complicated, serious, life altering decisions with Olga?(rhetorical question) Please let it not be via electronic translator.
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Chris I hope you find happiness. I can't see how that is possible given the path you have outlined. At the end of the day I believe in my heart that your happiness is secondary to that of the immediate needs of your children, but that is just my opinion.
As for the immigration of Olga, you are underestimating the challenges this presents. She is going to need you, your kids will need you, and you have to work. That's just the way it is man. How are you going to balance all that financially and emotionally? No sarcasm Chris I am glad it's you and not me.
Chris, seriously, how are you communicating all these heavy, complicated, serious, life altering decisions with Olga?(rhetorical question) Please let it not be via electronic translator.
ChrisE
Please read this and then re-read it, its not going to be as easy as you think, a foreignor in a foreign country needs a lot of attention also much help and support, its not just the kids here that need such. I hope it works out for you, but you will certainly have a lot on your plate one way or the other once you go down this route.
Chris
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So let me set a couple things straight:
A) It was the idea of the court for me to persue part or full custody of the children. The current case is against their mother only, since I currently am not even considered a legal parent in this state at this point. The idea of getting married to Olga and having a stable home is also being encouraged by the court and the social workers on the case. The courts have been informed of the situation, and the fact she is from Ukraine is NOT a factor.
B) It was Olga's idea that we try as a couple to gain custody, and she does want to be their stepmom and help raise them We both discussed this at long length, and considered all the factors and possibilities we could think of. We both agree it is for the sake of the children that it is best in the long run, even though we are both at least temporarily giving up our dream of living in Ukraine and making our life there. But it is possible that in the future it can still be done even with the children, and the children we may have in the future.
So it was the court's idea, or Olga's idea?
It will not be the first time Olga has helped raise children not her own Olga has helped raise all 5 of her sister's children, and now her oldest niece's baby. So this is not unfamiliar territory for her, and I have been assured of her competence just by our conversations and the things she has asked about my children, and her concerns about how they will adapt to the changing situations.
Helping a mother with her child is far, far different than being a stepmother 24/7. A stepmother who, apparently, cannot communicate with her stepchildren in a common language.
I don't know how this has also gotten so overblown about the fact that going overseas for a wife is taboo. I know that a lot of insecure, fat, and older AW have issues with this, as well as some who have their heads so full of misinformation as to be completely biased. But all my friends, family, coworkers, and professional contacts who know the story have all been very understanding and supportive, even encouraging. So of course I would want to introduce her to these people who actually were behind me all this time.
And yet, the fat, older AW ex-wife to whom you wanted to "show off" your new wife, supports you 100%. :-\
Nobody here posted going overseas was taboo. But those who have been through this know it's not the cake walk you think it will be. They're all just trying to tell you to think and be prepared. Granted, some of the posts have been very personal but overall, you have reacted to any post that asks you to step back and think like a petulant adolescent.
I will say this once again-nobody here on this forum knows all the facts or all that has been going on. I know many things have not gone "by the book" as far as foreign relationships go-but what does that prove? And who wrote this book anyway, and what makes it gospel? I know a lot of people here were disappointed that I didn't post about some wild New Years party, or uninhibited sex 5 times every day I was in Ukraine, maybe even involving the interpreter just to make it more entertaining or to show Andrewfi that I'm not depressed and in need of his therapy.
But the fact is that even though shit hit the fan and a lot of things went really wrong, I stuck it out because I truly feel that Olga is someone really special. I was there-I met her-I spent time with her-I got to know her as best as possible under the circumstances. I learned that typical FSU "traditions" are NOT the same throughout the country or from person to person. Unlike other women I tried to make relationships with, Olga makes the effort to come on Skype (on time even), she writes often, she shows concern for my well being and happiness, and she always shows her happiness when together, or even on Skype since I returned. She has the qualities I like, want, and respect very much. We share the same thoughts, feelings and values, and also have many of the same goals in life. We compliment each other in more ways than I can count, and have come to have deep feelings for her. So to sum it up-we have the chemistry, the desire, and the comittment to make this relationship work. So I am not doing anything to say "I told you so" or to prove anything to anyone here, but for the reasons of love and the desire to be happy together.
You spent a week with her, and could not even communicate directly in a common language. So how much can you really know? It's great you have the commitment to be together, but a little more than six months ago, you were in love with another UW with, presumably, the "commitment to make it work". While it's your life and no one's business, and I really do hope all works out for you, to dismiss all the potential issues you will have, and, the crux, to put your children, who evidently have not had stability in their lives for some time, is incredibly selfish and irresponsible.
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Trying to get a bloke to see his situation from a different perspective is not being a therapist, it is what people on a forum dedicated to helping and providing info DO.
Actually, this is a fair description of good therapy. You help, provide information and try to get a person to see things from a different perspective. A therapist is a helper.
The problem with non-therapist helpers is that they are often too involved, more likely to alienate the other person with labels such as being a little damaged, daft, wrongheaded and stupid or suggesting there is something not quite right with their mental wiring or using descriptions for their actions such as repugnant, horrible, cruel, disgusting.
In reality it is possible that all these things are correct and if you wish to hurt a person you probably should use them but they do not "help". They alienate the person you try to help. To add after the fact that if you cannot see the wisdom above then you truly need to seek professional help is probably more in line with throwing gas on the fire instead of sincerely trying to get a person to seek help.
Scott
Are you sure you are not a bartender? Because you are as sage as one.
Good insight!!
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and so it goes R-3 :chuckle:
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B) It was Olga's idea that we try as a couple to gain custody, and she does want to be their stepmom and help raise them We both discussed this at long length, and considered all the factors and possibilities we could think of. We both agree it is for the sake of the children that it is best in the long run, even though we are both at least temporarily giving up our dream of living in Ukraine and making our life there. But it is possible that in the future it can still be done even with the children, and the children we may have in the future.
LMFAO
I'm sorry.
Chris, I'm losing faith here my friend. What you just said above cannot be true. Are you sure she understood the situation you are in AN are you sure YOU understood what she was saying to you? I think the answer to both questions is NO!
Notice that I'm giving you some advice of something I know very well, NOT insulting you.
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Things will never be easy in life, but I think with a good partner that the load will be leveled out a bit and made more tolerable. Without a wife, there is no way I could take care of the kids on my own as I have no family here or anyone else who would be able to help, or be flexible enough to take them while I am working as my hours can change very frequently from days to nights, or sometimes a split shift like I am working now.
Just that paragraph alone should tell most just how far off centre your current mindset is.
You must have your shit together BEFORE you import a woman. You are planning on living with a "friend" while you save a deposit for a house?
Read Vinny and Welder's everyone's comments above.
Mate: You have the rose coloured glasses on. You cant see the wood for the trees. This *IS* doomed from the start. Almost the entire forum is telling you this isn't right. You have likely a thousand years collective experience telling you to stop.
My advice? This woman isn't for you. Get your shit together, get a house, clean credit, some spare cash and try again with a different woman when you are good to go. Not one you want as a trophy to show off to relatives and friends...... one you got to know properly over multiple trips and developed a real bond with. Not one who locks you up over New Year and goes out partying with her boyfriend in a dress you bought...... :'(
Please stop this lunacy now. Talk to someone you trust. Have them read this entire topic.
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Manny you are spot on.
ChrisE, you are using this woman as a crutch to bolster your ego and see her as the solution to all your problems. You see yourself as a victim of society, ie blame everyone but yourself. My friend, you are coming straight from Bullshit Central. You are the little boy in the toy store grabbing hold of the shiniest toy without a single penny to pay for it and throwing a dicky fit when told no.
You think Olga will solve all your problems? No she won't .
You think you are going to live happily ever after? No you're not.
You think you can afford this? No you can't .
You are so wrapped up in your little fantasy world and living in la la land.
You don't have a home, you can't make ends meet, you have unresolved custody issues with your ex ( and unresolved relationship issues by the sound of it too, been abused etc) you are one of life's 'victims' and far too 'needy' . Plain and simple, it isn't going to work.
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Uggghhh! How can so many people know their own language so badly?
Before getting back to me go read a link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/therapist
Given that some people seem to be implying that it was I who was taking n this role, go back and read. I was suggesting he seek out that assistance. There is a difference, yes?
Now we have others who are saying, much, much later exactly the same thing. 'Go and get some external, objective input.
If we should NOT be offering advice, guidance, comment about people and what they post here then why are there any posts in this thread apart from those written by Chris?
All that is happening now is that what could be easily seen by some, a few weeks ago, is becoming even more obvious as the imbalances in Chris's situation become more obvious then more people are catching up.
This situation is kinda like a kid's spinning top. A small imbalance leads to, at first, a barely perceptible wobble that grows and grows becoming more and more obvious until the thing falls over and rolls around the floor.
The thing is that, at first, a gentle touch can steady the toy, later on that same gentle touch just has no effect.
Sadly, because Chris has chosen to not get any impartial, external input from a person with some empathetic skills he is wobbling ever more noticeably.
==============
Chris, from what you have told us upthread I think I come to understand the thing with you and Olga. She is probably the most stable thing in your life right now - imperfect though she may be.
I mean, look at you:
No job (not having paid employment being a useful definition of unemployment)
Homeless
Not creditworthy
No friends
I can absolutely see the attractions of this woman and a life away from where you are right now.
Problem is that she is a chimera. Not that she is, in herself evil - but we both know she has some rather significant shortcomings. No, the monster is what she represents; the running away from life.
As I wrote to you weeks ago, don't run away from stuff, run to it. I surmised weeks ago that you had shit in your life. Now you have made it crystal clear - and I am sure that there is more that remains untold.
If you are going to be with this woman then you have two choices:
1) Throw away everything in your current life - kids, career, family friends and go live in Ukraine.
2) Bring this poor woman over to the US to live with you in unemployment and homeless poverty.
OK, neither will work, not least because, as I understand it, you need to have some income in order to be able to import a woman to be your wife. You also need some income in order to live in Ukraine.
At the very least mate, get your life sorted out.
Ask yourself this question: Do you think you have anything to offer a woman in your country, right now, today, that might make her think you were a suitable marriage partner?
Why do you think you have anything to offer a woman from Ukraine?
If this woman is 'the one' she will likely wait for you, for a while.
But first you've gotta stop wobbling.
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Ok
So his plane has only one engine :snivel:
And his car has only 3 wheels :snivel:
And his home has no door :snivel:
All these things are obvoiusly not perfect but :biggrin:
Who is to deny him having a shot at the gold?
There are only two people that can answer that :reading:
Him and Her AKA Chris & Olga.
Time has a great way of resolving,one way or another many issues, regardless of how fast you run :coffeeread:
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WOW, this thread gone full swing from bad to worse! First there is no way I should even consider being with this woman, then it was no way that I should try to make a life in "hell" as Ukraine has been referred to. Next I am damned that things changed because of a court hearing and my lady and I decide that in the best interest of the children she will come here to the US. I just can't seem to win here, and apparently nobody wants to see me try to be happy for once, but rather sit around and judge me and state how much of an idiot I am. All this from taking something out of context, twisting it, and making completely uninformed statements to convict me. Kind of makes me think of a lynch mob carrying torches chasing me from my dungeon.
....
So I am not doing anything to say "I told you so" or to prove anything to anyone here, but for the reasons of love and the desire to be happy together.
Chris,
I hope and pray for your happiness.
Wayne
PS. I will try to go back and read the thread. But, 26 pages, in the manner you have described them, is low down on my reading list.
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Chris, I think nobody wants to see you unhappy.
I think that many of us now understand that you are unhappy right now.
I think that some of us see that your varied suggestions, plans, fantasies, proposals are all pointing in the same direction: less net happiness than you have now.
One thing to think about: You are in love with this woman. You want to bundle with her in any way that you can manage. Marriage is, for most of us, a long term commitment and, for most of us, family is best managed in a stable environment. I am sure that you'd agree with me on this stuff, yes?
But what are you offering? Your life situation is so messed up that you have to keep changing your plans/fantasies/dreams and the woman you love is seeing and hearing all of this.
What chance does she have of making a life and family with you when, from one day to the next, you can not even be certain about which country you want to live with her in?
Did you yet take an opportunity to have a chat with an empathetic and objective outsider about your various schemes?
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You want to bundle with her in any way that you can manage.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Knowing Andrew you choose bundle on purpose!
Perhaps some one would care to explain the historic meaning of this word to those who lack the finer nuances of the English language. Pretty certain Wikipedia will have an article on bundling.
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An unrelated message, sorta of!!!
Andrew it finally hit me,,, good description of you, you should read this!
When Psychopaths Go to Work!!!
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You want to bundle with her in any way that you can manage.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Knowing Andrew you choose bundle on purpose!
Perhaps some one would care to explain the historic meaning of this word to those who lack the finer nuances of the English language. Pretty certain Wikipedia will have an article on bundling.
Yes I did and you forced me to go check the dictionary. ;)
Actually I used the word incorrectly as far as the dictionary was concerned. :(
http://www.quiltersmuse.com/bundling.htm (not a dictionary)
I had recalled the word as being an archaic word describing an informal marriage without preparation. Kinda like jumping over the broom (eloping).
That said, given what Chris has shared, the dictionary definition of the practice of engaged couples sleeping fully clothed in the same bed is not too far off the mark either.
Please excuse my aging and faulty memory.
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Chris,
Would you describe the case that the State has against your ex-wife?
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Chris,
Would you describe the case that the State has against your ex-wife?
Please no, yikes. Hasn't this poor *snip* poured enough of his personal life out on the interent? Tom I wondered the same several pages back and am grateful he hasn't elaborated thus far. Nothing good can come, IMHO, of him posting more dirty laundry.
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Chris,
Would you describe the case that the State has against your ex-wife?
Please no, yikes. Hasn't this poor *snip* poured enough of his personal life out on the interent? Tom I wondered the same several pages back and am grateful he hasn't elaborated thus far. Nothing good can come, IMHO, of him posting more dirty laundry.
Considering the washing machine here, you are very correct. if he was smart, he would not put anymore here.
He would find someone he trusts and discuss it with them! Maybe even let them read this thread to see some of what has happened!
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What the hell are you guys thinking?!
Discussing one's problems, especially with anonymity (and with those with similar afflictions) is therapeutic.
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What the hell are you guys thinking?!
Discussing one's problems, especially with anonymity (and with those with similar afflictions) is therapeutic.
Tom, You mean here where it is just short of public flogging????
I agree it is good to talk. but more negative here than positive.
I realize many are right and truly wish for Chris to get his Shit together.
Before he does more harm than good. but really if you read this whole thread( I have)
Then it is not the answer to his problems!
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Yes I did and you forced me to go check the dictionary. ;)
Actually I used the word incorrectly as far as the dictionary was concerned. :(
http://www.quiltersmuse.com/bundling.htm (not a dictionary)
I had recalled the word as being an archaic word describing an informal marriage without preparation. Kinda like jumping over the broom (eloping).
That said, given what Chris has shared, the dictionary definition of the practice of engaged couples sleeping fully clothed in the same bed is not too far off the mark either.
Andrew sorry to force you to use the dictionary - but in fact your memory is fine :)
From Wikipedia:
Courtship practice
Traditionally, participants were adolescents, with a boy staying at the residence of a girl. They were given separate blankets by the girl's parents and expected to talk to one another through the night. The practice was limited to the winter and sometimes the use of a bundling board, placed between the boy and girl, ensured that no sexual conduct would take place. More often, this rule was merely implicit, and was not always honored in the United States
The practice of bundling continued in the early United States, where in the case of a scarcity of beds, travelers were occasionally permitted to bundle with locals.
As late as the mid-19th century, there are indications that bundling was still practiced in New England, although its popularity was waning. The court case of Graham v. Smith, argued before Judge Edmunds in the Orange Circuit Court of New York State in 1846, concerned the seduction of a 19-year-old woman. Testimony in the case established that bundling was a common practice in certain rural social circles at the time. By the 20th century, bundling as a practice seemed to have died out almost everywhere, with only isolated references to it occurring in Amish Pennsylvania.
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Tom, You mean here where it is just short of public flogging????
"Just short?"
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Tom, You mean here where it is just short of public flogging????
"Just short?"
Well, we never arranged him, to be in public and truly beat him, hence just short :chuckle:
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As late as the mid-19th century, there are indications that bundling was still practiced in New England, although its popularity was waning. The court case of Graham v. Smith, argued before Judge Edmunds in the Orange Circuit Court of New York State in 1846, concerned the seduction of a 19-year-old woman. Testimony in the case established that bundling was a common practice in certain rural social circles at the time. By the 20th century, bundling as a practice seemed to have died out almost everywhere, with only isolated references to it occurring in Amish Pennsylvania.
The (IMHO excellent) movie "The Patriot" with/by Mel Gibson, has a scene with bundling practiced. In this case, there was a sort of sewing up of clothing, performed by the mother, to ensure that nothing outside of the hair on the lady's head, would be inappropriately rumpled... among the Amish and Mennonites, there are old timer's jokes about the practice, etc.
If you care, you can read more here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/amish/am07.htm
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What the hell are you guys thinking?!
Discussing one's problems, especially with anonymity (and with those with similar afflictions) is therapeutic.
Tom,
There is anonymity on this board?
Interesting.
wayne
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Tom,
There is anonymity on this board?
Interesting.
wayne
Well... yeah; I wouldn't know Chris if I met him on the street nor would he know me. (I look like I'm still alive in my avatar.)
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Tom,
There is anonymity on this board?
Interesting.
wayne
Well... yeah; I wouldn't know Chris if I met him on the street nor would he know me. (I look like I'm still alive in my avatar.)
Tom, I would have not known him either until, he posted a picture of himself. So I would now!
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What the hell are you guys thinking?!
Discussing one's problems, especially with anonymity (and with those with similar afflictions) is therapeutic.
Frankly, the fact that Chris keeps posting is, IMHO, a good thing and a good sign. There are not so many people now saying 'go for it, she seems like a ruddy good sort and you will do really well together' so either he is an exhibitionist with a taste for self flagellation OR he is getting something from posting. ;)
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What the hell are you guys thinking?!
Discussing one's problems, especially with anonymity (and with those with similar afflictions) is therapeutic.
Frankly, the fact that Chris keeps posting is, IMHO, a good thing and a good sign. There are not so many people now saying 'go for it, she seems like a ruddy good sort and you will do really well together' so either he is an exhibitionist with a taste for self flagellation OR he is getting something from posting. ;)
i think its 25% massochism and 75% knowing what HE wants and not giving a F what the majority thinks. And im grateful for that because this is one of the more interesting trip reports arounds.. at least for me a big part of his psychological motivation in pursueing this is similar to mine.
I certainly dont agree with your attitude, i do however agree with many of your observations: still you dont really seem to grasp how it can be for a human being, a DECENT human being, who is forced by society to a position where he feels he has nothing to lose.
And part of that is because he (and me) has been put down by people like yourself during our lives in more subtle ways. So maybe for him, by continueing his posts, its also a way to rebel against all this.
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If the court gives Chris custody of his children then he is qualified.
If the government gives Chris a marriage visa then he is financially qualified.
If he has the money to get this woman to the US then she will come.
All or some or none of this may happen.
Anything else or afterwards is purely speculation based on almost nothing.
If he can get to the end of all this then I wish him good luck. If he does not then it is not meant to be at this time.
Scott
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Chris,
I promised to read more. You posted:
since I currently am not even considered a legal parent in this state at this point.
And this comment brings up a question.
1. Are the children you are fighting for your biological children?
And, secondly (2) While I can understand wanting a mother for your children, are you marrying her because of her? Or, (3) is the pressure caused by the court case over your children a major motivation for your marriage?
The reason I ask is rather simple. From what I have read, your positions reads like a very high stress, and high stakes, situation. In which case, many of your current decisions are based more upon 'gaming strategy' than they are based upon other more common logic.
I read several comments which seemed to imply "marry" was the same as winning. And not marrying was the same as losing.
As you have spoken with friends and family who personally know you, do they see your personality as a gambling type of person?
Are you a type "A".
The reason I ask about your personalty type is simple. If you are a type "A" then winning is accompanied by a rush of adrenilen (like a drug addict). If that is the case, then you might make decisions to raise the stakes (increase the risk) rather than make decisions to lower the risks and make for a safer environment for you and your children.
Increasing safety and lowering risk taking behavior usually helps in a marriage relationship.
Having written that ....
From a straight gaming perspective, will you be all in? Or, will you keep reserves?
There are advantages to both ways to "play this hand." But, my concern is more realistic ....
Are you and this woman truly for "keeps?" Are you truly for "thick and thin?"
The longer I have been around the FSUW and AM the more I have noticed that most of our men commit less than the women commit to the relationships. I think this is more cultural. And yes, once the women decide to 'cut and run,' they do so quickly.
You have been married.
So, is this one "the one for you?"
Only the two of you and God should be completely in that conversation. But, as a Pastor, I ask this question for you and her to deal with. Are the two of you family? Will the two of you "have each other's back?" Or, will you side with the kids? If the latter, there will be problems in the marriage when you place the needs of the kids above the needs of the marriage ....
We have lost that cultural focus in the US. Husband and wife run the home, and children are a blessing from God. Children are not friends who "rule the roost."
I rambled, sorry, the pain is bad today. But, I admire your standing up for the kids. And I continue to pray that God will guide you and yours as ya'll go on this journey.
And I pray it is smoother rather than rougher.
wayne
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Tom, I would have not known him either until, he posted a picture of himself. So I would now!
Men get dozens of photos from women with whom they correspond, they study them for hundreds of hours yet barely recognize them when they meet at the airport... but you would know Chris. Either you are more finely attuned to facial recognition than the rest of us or you have been giving an inordinate amount of attention to his photo. You guys aren't corresponding, are you?
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Tom, No. It is a new photo, and easy to distinguish! Also, I tend to remember faces. Names not so much.
I talked to a girl 4 times on skype. 2 months after talking, I was in Kiev airport and seen her going.
second guessing myself and the fact she was with a man, i said nothing. When I go home, I talked with
Her on skype, it was her, she was there with a man she met from Germany. Chris's picture in new and
Clear, easy to remember that face. So for some nothing unusual. If your picture is close to what you look like
Now, i would recognize you also. Faces are easy!
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Or, will you side with the kids? If the latter, there will be problems in the marriage when you place the needs of the kids above the needs of the marriage ....
You are mixing different things. You can't "side" with children, and a strong, loving marriage is the foundation for a strong family, but children's needs must come first if they are to grow into healthy, productive adults.
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Christian, you may be projecting your own issues a little too much here. ;)
Desperation can take many forms. From what Chris is telling us I'd be very, very surprised if he did not feel like he was at the end of his tether. It is why, weeks ago, I made the point about not running away from stuff but rather running too stuff. Let's be clear here, this is something in which I have some experience, having done that which Chris is blarting on about.
The thing is that it is his choice to run away or to build a life. BUT it is not, in my opinion, right, or good to make others his pawns in doing so. Marrying this woman in order to 'win', to, in his mind, rub his family and friends noses in the dirt (in hís eyes) is using another person who will have given up a lot to be with him. Trying to use his new wife in his battle to wrest control of his kids from his former wife is wrong.
As I think I noted already, it ain't about what these people in his life can do for him but rather what he can do for them. He is looking to use people to ameliorate his pain, his anger, his frustrations. Sadly, it really works much better the other way round. Rather than sucking energy from others as he does now, he needs to rebuild his life - find paid employment, find a home, find some peace within himself, build friendships and then sally forth. He may not ever have these kids in his home full time, but he can still be their father. He can have a supportive and lovely wife - but now when he is, as some people round here put it, 'eating their energy'.
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Or, will you side with the kids? If the latter, there will be problems in the marriage when you place the needs of the kids above the needs of the marriage ....
You are mixing different things. You can't "side" with children, and a strong, loving marriage is the foundation for a strong family, but children's needs must come first if they are to grow into healthy, productive adults.
The Basic needs of your kids should come first. But the primary relationship, should be with your wife or husband!
More often than not, is it not! Another cause for many divorce cases.
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My guess I am in a minority here about children and taking sides. But I feel a family is a unit that should (in a healthy situation) balance the conflicting needs. If the family unit is destroyed by say divorce or death than the primary focus becomes the children and parents have a responsibility to insure that the children come out healthy.
The term "sides" is clumsy. It seems to make ChrisE pick sides like he is playing dodge ball. But there are more clumsy things here so why not another. :dh:
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It seams to me we are not asking another troubling question. Why would any woman agree to put herself in this position? Does it make sense that any woman would move to the US with a guy who 1) has no house 2) has no car 3) has no personal belongings/furnishings 4) is in the middle of a nasty custody battle 5) is in the middle of a wage discrepancy for work performed- potentially no income.
I can only come to one of two conclusions 1) she doesn't understand any of this (electronic translator) or 2) think of any other ill motivated reason once in the US.....just replay the you tube video about the cosmetics.....this is not a girl without expectations.
Just thought I'd throw a little more fuel on the fire to ensure the horse isn't playing dead.
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Welder, I agree entirely.
It is my surmise that this woman actually has fairly little idea of what Chris has in mind for her.
I think she understands that he is not well off, his behaviour with her will have seen to that.
But his real circumstances?
All she knows is what he told her.
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that wood make a good smilie,, fuel to the fire :chuckle:
Some threads it would seem to fit very well.
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welder,
Back in reply #396, you took exception to my asking Chris about the case that the State has against his ex-wife. A day later, you threw a little more fuel on the fire:
It seams to me we are not asking another troubling question. Why would any woman agree to put herself in this position? Does it make sense that any woman would move to the US with a guy who 1) has no house 2) has no car 3) has no personal belongings/furnishings 4) is in the middle of a nasty custody battle 5) is in the middle of a wage discrepancy for work performed- potentially no income.
I can only come to one of two conclusions 1) she doesn't understand any of this (electronic translator) or 2) think of any other ill motivated reason once in the US.....just replay the you tube video about the cosmetics.....this is not a girl without expectations.
Just thought I'd throw a little more fuel on the fire to ensure the horse isn't playing dead.
Do you think that the bar should be set lower for you than for me?
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The Basic needs of your kids should come first. But the primary relationship, should be with your wife or husband!
More often than not, is it not! Another cause for many divorce cases.
No, the relationship is one of the entire family. The perspective you espouse is the reason the family unit in Western society is deteriorating. That, and individual ego.
My guess I am in a minority here about children and taking sides. But I feel a family is a unit that should (in a healthy situation) balance the conflicting needs. If the family unit is destroyed by say divorce or death than the primary focus becomes the children and parents have a responsibility to insure that the children come out healthy.
The term "sides" is clumsy. It seems to make ChrisE pick sides like he is playing dodge ball. But there are more clumsy things here so why not another. :dh:
I agree. No one part of the “unit” is more important than another. If a man or woman can’t handle that, he/she should not have children.
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The Basic needs of your kids should come first. But the primary relationship, should be with your wife or husband!
More often than not, is it not! Another cause for many divorce cases.
No, the relationship is one of the entire family. The perspective you espouse is the reason the family unit in Western society is deteriorating. That, and individual ego.
My guess I am in a minority here about children and taking sides. But I feel a family is a unit that should (in a healthy situation) balance the conflicting needs. If the family unit is destroyed by say divorce or death than the primary focus becomes the children and parents have a responsibility to insure that the children come out healthy.
The term "sides" is clumsy. It seems to make ChrisE pick sides like he is playing dodge ball. But there are more clumsy things here so why not another. :dh:
I agree. No one part of the “unit” is more important than another. If a man or woman can’t handle that, he/she should not have children.
There can only be one primary relationship, this should be, between Man and Women. The children have different needs and should always be in this dynamic and consideration. But if the man or women, place the children if front of the primary relationship, then the family unit will suffer. many do this and never see it. It is very common.
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No, your attitude is the one which will result in divorce, as it is based on a me vs them dynamic, rather than a "we are one" perspective.
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welder,
Back in reply #396, you took exception to my asking Chris about the case that the State has against his ex-wife. A day later, you threw a little more fuel on the fire:
It seams to me we are not asking another troubling question. Why would any woman agree to put herself in this position? Does it make sense that any woman would move to the US with a guy who 1) has no house 2) has no car 3) has no personal belongings/furnishings 4) is in the middle of a nasty custody battle 5) is in the middle of a wage discrepancy for work performed- potentially no income.
I can only come to one of two conclusions 1) she doesn't understand any of this (electronic translator) or 2) think of any other ill motivated reason once in the US.....just replay the you tube video about the cosmetics.....this is not a girl without expectations.
Just thought I'd throw a little more fuel on the fire to ensure the horse isn't playing dead.
Do you think that the bar should be set lower for you than for me?
Not at all Tom. I recognize you are a very smart guy and as such anticipated you would find my fuel to the fire comment a bit hypocritical. The questions I posed relates to the relationship being discussed in this thread. The childrens position with their mom doesn't seam to fit with RUA discusions. Perhaps I am wrong but that would be my opinion. Truely I recognize my own bias as the kids are a soft spot.
Tom a compromise may be if the mother were to be invited to defend herself against anything Chris posts.
Perhaps a fair question would be why Chris stated he had nothing keeping him in America knowing that the living conditions of his children was anything but ideal......doesn't add up.
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No, your attitude is the one which will result in divorce, as it is based on a me vs them dynamic, rather than a "we are one" perspective.
Halo, this is not my findings or personal feeling this is stated in more than few Physiologic studies. Now with anything, regarding studies, there is a difference of opinion on many occasions. I have read arguments for and against this theory.
But it seems overwhelmingly in favor of this concept. I should let them know you disagree, therefore they must be wrong :thumbsup:
I will once again, invite you to meet me, other wise prefer you don't comment on my attitude, which you no nothing about, thankyou :)
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Why would I accept the study of a bunch of (likely divorced) psychologists?
Look, it is not rocket science. Look around you.
If you are going to espouse others' views, unless you so state, I assume you "own" them.
Perhaps a fair question would be why Chris stated he had nothing keeping him in America knowing that the living conditions of his children was anything but ideal.
I wondered that as well, but as he had also posted they were "in the system", I assumed they were in foster care, and he'd just given up.
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Why would I accept the study of a bunch of (likely divorced) psychologists?
Look, it is not rocket science. Look around you.
If you are going to espouse others' views, unless you so state, I assume you "own" them.
So your saying years of research by 100's of people in published studies from all of over the world is just BS and I should not read or believe any of this, That is priceless coming for someone who uses wiki as a source among others, where the hell do you think they get there info. Halo just because you don't believe something or state otherwise, does not make it so!!! I know you think you are right about everything, but really PLEASE!!!!
Perhaps a fair question would be why Chris stated he had nothing keeping him in America knowing that the living conditions of his children was anything but ideal.
I wondered that as well, but as he had also posted they were "in the system", I assumed they were in foster care, and he'd just given up.
Chris stated, once the were on the care of the State, not sure if that is still the status.
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The Basic needs of your kids should come first. But the primary relationship, should be with your wife or husband!
More often than not, is it not! Another cause for many divorce cases.
No, the relationship is one of the entire family. The perspective you espouse is the reason the family unit in Western society is deteriorating. That, and individual ego.
My guess I am in a minority here about children and taking sides. But I feel a family is a unit that should (in a healthy situation) balance the conflicting needs. If the family unit is destroyed by say divorce or death than the primary focus becomes the children and parents have a responsibility to insure that the children come out healthy.
The term "sides" is clumsy. It seems to make ChrisE pick sides like he is playing dodge ball. But there are more clumsy things here so why not another. :dh:
I agree. No one part of the “unit” is more important than another. If a man or woman can’t handle that, he/she should not have children.
There can only be one primary relationship, this should be, between Man and Women. The children have different needs and should always be in this dynamic and consideration. But if the man or women, place the children if front of the primary relationship, then the family unit will suffer. many do this and never see it. It is very common.
The only part of this entire discusion which I have trouble with is applying the theories of all who have posted to this very case. In this case the family unit is broken, Chris and his ex, and custody is still in question. From this standpoint Chris needs to man up and put his own needs on hold IMHO. The kids come first. If this can be stabilized then Chris could pursue his own happiness. As it stands the addition of any woman just escalates stress on the kids and as such is selfish pure and simple.
The level of the OPs selfishness is further exemplified by his description of the life awaiting the poor soul who accepts his offer to move to the US. I am sure all women dream of becoming a housemaid.
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Why would any woman agree to put herself in this position? Does it make sense that any woman would move to the US with a guy who 1) has no house 2) has no car 3) has no personal belongings/furnishings 4) is in the middle of a nasty custody battle 5) is in the middle of a wage discrepancy for work performed- potentially no income.
Well, the woman could be doing this because of 1. economy 2. opportunity for advancement 3. Citizenship 4. Relationship. It was not her idea to move to the US so maybe #3 is not high on the list.
Maybe she has been used/abused all her life and she see's a guy who will not use/abuse her.
Why did your wife want to marry you Welder? Was it because of your house, car, personal belongings/furnishings? Were you a vehicle for career advancement or new passport? If you did not have these things would she have not married you?
Was it the overall package above that seduced her?
Why do people believe you must own a house or buy new furniture when the girl arrives. I know a couple Russians in Alaska who are very happy in mobile homes. I plan to retire to something very nice and a bit more mobile. The snowbird life. She is not super enthusiastic about MHs but is open minded once she see's how nice one can be and what you can do with one she will likely come around.
As far as the last two on your list. Russians know all about wage problems and custody battles. It is a part of life, move on, next subject.
Scott
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All that you are writing about now is done with a simple assumption: that ChrisE is making rational choices and dealing with his environment in an objective manner.
He is not.
He is acting as people under a degree of stress that they cannot any longer handle tend to do.
He is thinking, and acting in a short term, self centered, irrational manner - in short acting in desperation.
So, while what you are writing about makes sense and can be discussed between you lot, it is irrelevant to Chris.
At the moment ChrisE is in a scary, dark place and he wants something, anything to cast a light into the shadows. So, one idea after another comes to the top of his head, is considered and then cast away.
The finer points of family building are not any part of Chris's thinking right now.
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All that you are writing about now is done with a simple assumption: that ChrisE is making rational choices and dealing with his environment in an objective manner.
He is not.
He is acting as people under a degree of stress that they cannot any longer handle tend to do.
He is thinking, and acting in a short term, self centered, irrational manner - in short acting in desperation.
So, while what you are writing about makes sense and can be discussed between you lot, it is irrelevant to Chris.
At the moment ChrisE is in a scary, dark place and he wants something, anything to cast a light into the shadows. So, one idea after another comes to the top of his head, is considered and then cast away.
The finer points of family building are not any part of Chris's thinking right now.
We agree on this point. As I said before, Chris is blowing in the wind. He had a plan to get married and move away but then the custody thing blew that all away so his attention naturally focused on the children but that does not totally negate the idea of getting married and having a wife could help with raising the children, or it could hurt.
There is still time for many things to happen. Everything considered he may only be able to just skim by on the custody thing and not have enough money to get a wife over for some time. He may not even get custody. But just because life throws you some curve balls doesn't mean drop everything. It usually means you move priorities and improvise which he is doing and may need to do again in the future.
Scott
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Why would any woman agree to put herself in this position? Does it make sense that any woman would move to the US with a guy who 1) has no house 2) has no car 3) has no personal belongings/furnishings 4) is in the middle of a nasty custody battle 5) is in the middle of a wage discrepancy for work performed- potentially no income.
Well, the woman could be doing this because of 1. economy 2. opportunity for advancement 3. Citizenship 4. Relationship. It was not her idea to move to the US so maybe #3 is not high on the list.
Maybe she has been used/abused all her life and she see's a guy who will not use/abuse her.
Why did your wife want to marry you Welder? Was it because of your house, car, personal belongings/furnishings? Were you a vehicle for career advancement or new passport? If you did not have these things would she have not married you?
Was it the overall package above that seduced her?
Why do people believe you must own a house or buy new furniture when the girl arrives. I know a couple Russians in Alaska who are very happy in mobile homes. I plan to retire to something very nice and a bit more mobile. The snowbird life. She is not super enthusiastic about MHs but is open minded once she see's how nice one can be and what you can do with one she will likely come around.
As far as the last two on your list. Russians know all about wage problems and custody battles. It is a part of life, move on, next subject.
Scott
Scott, you can disect the list anyway you like. The questions still stands. Why, with all five of the above, is this woman willing to move to the US. You haven't addressed this with the reply above. With all due respect you have taken a very simplistic and obvious route to draw a conclusion.
Agree that Russians know about wage problems and custody battles. IMO you stopped short. I believe they understand everything listed and hence my question.
To answer your question as to if my wife would have married me if I as Manny put it"didn't have my shit together" ....an emphatic NO.
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I thought I did answer your question. Of course it is all speculation since nobody knows page one of this girl.
It might be possible to eliminate visa whore because she did not care about moving to the US. I do not see Chris as unstable so I also do not think she must. I think he is pretty normal.
Stuff happens to normal people. They fall in and out of love. They lose jobs and get new ones. They get divorced quite often. Along the way other stuff pops up like sick parents and parents that die requiring big changes to whatever is going on in your life at the time but need not totally stop your life from moving on. Custody is one of these things.
There is speculation here all around so I just ask that my own be allowed. That this woman may just want a good relationship and she see's this in Chris. He may not be perfect but he may be better than what she has had or what she figures she will get.
Fate as fate goes, has changed the game by putting this custody thing square in the middle and this girl has agreed to help him as any would be wife would do.
Now if all is so simple then I would say this is a good thing.
Not everyone (man or woman) believes we must own a home. I prefer 5th wheels that move around a lot. A car is easy enough to come by. If a person was figuring on moving to Russia he probably would not be keeping one.
To put this in a different view. I own a half million dollars in properties none of which is a home, most of which are vacant and gathering taxes and all of which used to be worth twice as much. I have not owned a car in 6 years. The economic situation evaporated half my life savings overnight and destroyed two businesses. I have very little cash flow now and my life is a bit of a mess. My second half knows absolutely nothing of my finances except that I have a small income, do not own a car or home and wish to live in Ukraine. She does understand that I am required to be back home for long periods of time to repair my economics. Our relationship was built totally on just a relationship and nothing more. I have never contributed more than any Russian would have. She does have all the love she can handle though. She has no idea that I have two dimes really but she knows that I do have one dime and that I lost half of that. We both have a history of bad relationships but together we found what we searched for.
The answer is simple for the first question. She may be doing this for the relationship. Or is Upsylon correct and all Russian women are no good materialistic lying bitches?
For the second question as to Chris having his shit together. The view is subjective.
Scott
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Appreciate the response Scott. Thanks. :thumbsup:
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I thought I did answer your question. Of course it is all speculation since nobody knows page one of this girl.
It might be possible to eliminate visa whore because she did not care about moving to the US. I do not see Chris as unstable so I also do not think she must. I think he is pretty normal.
Stuff happens to normal people. They fall in and out of love. They lose jobs and get new ones. They get divorced quite often. Along the way other stuff pops up like sick parents and parents that die requiring big changes to whatever is going on in your life at the time but need not totally stop your life from moving on. Custody is one of these things.
There is speculation here all around so I just ask that my own be allowed. That this woman may just want a good relationship and she see's this in Chris. He may not be perfect but he may be better than what she has had or what she figures she will get.
Fate as fate goes, has changed the game by putting this custody thing square in the middle and this girl has agreed to help him as any would be wife would do.
Now if all is so simple then I would say this is a good thing.
Not everyone (man or woman) believes we must own a home. I prefer 5th wheels that move around a lot. A car is easy enough to come by. If a person was figuring on moving to Russia he probably would not be keeping one.
To put this in a different view. I own a half million dollars in properties none of which is a home, most of which are vacant and gathering taxes and all of which used to be worth twice as much. I have not owned a car in 6 years. The economic situation evaporated half my life savings overnight and destroyed two businesses. I have very little cash flow now and my life is a bit of a mess. My second half knows absolutely nothing of my finances except that I have a small income, do not own a car or home and wish to live in Ukraine. She does understand that I am required to be back home for long periods of time to repair my economics. Our relationship was built totally on just a relationship and nothing more. I have never contributed more than any Russian would have. She does have all the love she can handle though. She has no idea that I have two dimes really but she knows that I do have one dime and that I lost half of that. We both have a history of bad relationships but together we found what we searched for.
The answer is simple for the first question. She may be doing this for the relationship. Or is Upsylon correct and all Russian women are no good materialistic lying bitches?
For the second question as to Chris having his shit together. The view is subjective.
Scott
And here's my guess; you spent more than a week with her before deciding you'd like to move there and you had a better method of communication than google translate. ;)
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Of course it is all speculation since nobody knows page one of this girl.
In fairness after page one of this TR anybody with even a shred of self respect and/or common sense would have bailed and started seeking out a plan B!
The fact that our hero hasn't speaks volumes in itself!
In my humblest of opinions Chris, those tickling your A-double crooked letter with a feather duster on this thread are doing you NO favours whatsoever! I think you may refer to it as - being killed with kindness!
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Why do people believe you must own a house or buy new furniture when the girl arrives.
Dude, you gotta replace the mattress, or at the very least flip it over!
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Chris: If you are still reading this you may like to take a look at Tony Bochene's trilogy where yet another person with good experience advises not to marry someone you don't know.
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Chris: If you are still reading this you may like to take a look at Tony Bochene's trilogy where yet another person with good experience advises not to marry someone you don't know.
ChrisE is under the impession he does know this woman. No need to watch videos that do not apply to him.
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I read the first 10 pages or so. I didn't get past the New Year's excuse. Time to move on, Chris E. Sorry, but some times it works out that way...
Do we know his current status?
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Has not been around for awhile. so no one knows whats up now!!??
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After seeing it referenced on a few other threads I read it all. Painful read, very painful. I don't recall seeing so much denial from one man in the course of 30 days
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Spoke to Chris about a week ago via Skype he is labouring on back in the US.
My guess reality has bitten him ~ but no one knows.
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Spoke to Chris about a week ago via Skype he is labouring on back in the US.
My guess reality has bitten him ~ but no one knows.
I hope that is the case and that the other crap in his life has not been worsened by the underlying issues.
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If the true goal was to help him.
Then it was not achieved, as he has left.
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If the true goal was to help him.
Then it was not achieved, as he has left.
This "adventure" is not for everyone. It seems he has other issues to deal with and needs to get them in order before he pursues a lass -- foreign or domestic. Realizing this isn't for him and moving on is a very rational choice. We have many posters here that live in a fantasy world and ring up thousands of posts. They they do little or nothing in pursuing a woman from anywhere as far as I can see.
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If the true goal was to help him.
Then it was not achieved, as he has left.
This "adventure" is not for everyone. It seems he has other issues to deal with and needs to get them in order before he pursues a lass -- foreign or domestic. Realizing this isn't for him and moving on is a very rational choice. We have many posters here that live in a fantasy world and ring up thousands of posts. They they do little or nothing in pursuing a woman from anywhere as far as I can see.
I suspect Chris is trying to organize things in such a way that he wins the kids from his ex/state and have Olga travel Westward.
Sometimes people can roll a really big stone up a mountain. I suspect though we will hear.
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NSone, if we have helped the guy to understand that this was not for him then we have truly rendered first class aid!
As welder noted this is not a thing for everyone.
As I have noted several times, those who would stick a feather up the bloke's arse and tickle him, telling him everything is fine when it quite obviously isn't, is being dishonest and doing the bloke no favours whatsoever.
I hope that chris does some or all of the following before trying to get a woman over to his country in order to parade her around in front of family, friends and ex-wife:
1) Gets help to understand his emotional state
2) Finds a job that pays money
3) Sort out his relationship with his kids, which probably means building bridges with his former wife
4) Recontacts his friends, the folks he has not seen in a year or more
5) Start relationships with 'real' women in his social circle and reset his moral and emotional compass
6) Build a cushion of money to sustain an ongoing 'campaign' rather than having to rely upon a last minute, all or nothing, smash and grab
And that's just the stuff that WE know about!
Then, maybe, if all that is sorted then he will be ready to do that which he said he wanted to do without harming the women he meets, himself and his family.
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If the true goal was to help him.
Then it was not achieved, as he has left.
What do you propose is the help he needs? Short of taking up a monetary collection for him? He is a one week wonder with more holes in the meeting than a hoop of swiss cheese. His children are wards of the state and he doesn't have a place to live. He's skirt chasing across the globe with a very loose grip on reality. What "true" help is there for this guy on a forum? Telling him to get his and his children's life in order and secure might be a start.
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Faux Pas, you are correct.
Sadly there is a tendency among many blokes to think that anything that does not support 'the dream' is automatically a bad and wrong thing.
Some folks have a different view, something like 'go for the dream but get your ducks in a row first'.
Chris is a very troubled man and supporting him in his fantasy would not have been one small piece of help for him and his life. Your suggestion is a valid starting point but making such suggestions as you may have read was very much counter to the zeitgeist, although as more came out, to be fair there was a swing in perception. Sadly some people need more data to form a picture and make a decent assessment than others.
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I'm sure somebody will keep in touch with him. It is a shame that he was made uncomfortable here. It is one thing to tell a person he is wrong or that he will fail. He will think on these things especially when there are months of time ahead. And, if you believe in the financial problems you think he has then the whole discussion is moot no? Just a dream that will never happen. But forcing a person to think the way you want them to think doesn't usually work except for meth addicts maybe.
But it would have been so much better if he had been allowed to feel comfortable in posting. There would have been a deeper understanding of him and her instead of the speculation. You might have seen a man change for the better over time or you might have seen the big train wreck. It could have been a TR you could point to a year from now and use as a teaching tool good or bad.
Chances are like 95% that his dream is not going to happen and not because of anything here. Probably not because of any red flags. He just does not have the money and if he gets the kids he will not have the money or the time. Unfortunately, the most you will ever hear now will probably be just a footnote.
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I believe Chris, has issues that should be dealt with long before he pursues this or any other adventure.
But you can write it any way you like.
Some spoke I am here to help ( bullshit)
Some wrote I did not gloss it over, but trying to help ( bullshit)
If you think he was nuts then outright say so, pretty much everything else was said!
But now that he is gone, doing what ever, good bad or in between!!!
Nobody will ever know, So did you help him? I doubt it, but you can think you did, if it helps you!
Ya, sounds like train wreck in everything I read also, but helping would have tried to get him off the train and on
the right one.
Not get him off, to throw him under it.
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He was not willing to listen, NS. Anything that was raised as "unusual" or "difficult" was dismissed.
I have never known a Ukrainian who would not invite a foreign guest they were entertaining, let alone a fiancé, for dinner on one of the two biggest holidays in the Orthodox calendar, and one which, culturally, is huge in Ukraine.
Faux Pas is right, there was no way to help.
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He was not willing to listen, NS. Anything that was raised as "unusual" or "difficult" was dismissed.
I have never known a Ukrainian who would not invite a foreign guest they were entertaining, let alone a fiancé, for dinner on one of the two biggest holidays in the Orthodox calendar, and one which, culturally, is huge in Ukraine.
Faux Pas is right, there was no way to help.
Halo, that was my point. he did not except help. or listen.
But there are many ways to go at something.
So many enjoyed ripping him apart in the name of ( help)
I was saying better to just say it loud and bold and fast.
Instead of what we saw happening.
Maybe this can be a tool for future help??
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NSone, do you think anyone enjoyed seeing what he was going through? If you do then maybe YOU need to consider how YOU relate to others around you.
There was a problem, you and some others were busy sticking a feather up the poor bloke's arse. Supporting him when it was obvious to people who know a little of the environment, a little of the dynamic and a little of the circumstances that Chris was retelling to us could see the blindingly obvious.
In that situation the volume control gets turned up to overcome the noise. In the end, everybody had caught on that what was going on was wrong in many, many ways. The thing is that those who were very much trying to help ended up shouting to get over the rubbish that you and others blindly seeking to validate their own fantasies we spewing.
The stupid posts from some people would have happened no matter how I had framed my mostly rhetorical questions, no matter how others had framed their comments and questions some people would, until the last minute, have continued to argue that black was white.
A forum where there are people with different reading speeds and differing points of view is not a place to get the quiet calm of a therapists suite.
But yes, a part of what was going on was verbally trying to do that which is much better done face to face. Getting a bloke to shake himself up - it ain't easy when sitting next to a person, much harder remotely and with noisemakers chiming in gainsaying everything that their more perceptive peers were trying to say.
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I have never known a Ukrainian who would not invite a foreign guest they were entertaining, let alone a fiancé, for dinner on one of the two biggest holidays in the Orthodox calendar, and one which, culturally, is huge in Ukraine.
That is so true, even ones I hardly knew have invited me to be part of their celebrations. No matter how large or small or personal.
BTW ChrisE I know you are still reading this, so please feel free to update us if you feel like it. If not give me the word and I will lock it for you and wish you the best.
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NSone, do you think anyone enjoyed seeing what he was going through? If you do then maybe YOU need to consider how YOU relate to others around you.
There was a problem, you and some others were busy sticking a feather up the poor bloke's arse. Supporting him when it was obvious to people who know a little of the environment, a little of the dynamic and a little of the circumstances that Chris was retelling to us could see the blindingly obvious.
In that situation the volume control gets turned up to overcome the noise. In the end, everybody had caught on that what was going on was wrong in many, many ways. The thing is that those who were very much trying to help ended up shouting to get over the rubbish that you and others blindly seeking to validate their own fantasies we spewing.
The stupid posts from some people would have happened no matter how I had framed my mostly rhetorical questions, no matter how others had framed their comments and questions some people would, until the last minute, have continued to argue that black was white.
A forum where there are people with different reading speeds and differing points of view is not a place to get the quiet calm of a therapists suite.
But yes, a part of what was going on was verbally trying to do that which is much better done face to face. Getting a bloke to shake himself up - it ain't easy when sitting next to a person, much harder remotely and with noisemakers chiming in gainsaying everything that their more perceptive peers were trying to say.
Andrew, don't spin this around on me! I believe your post and insults were the most damning.
You trying to pass them off as help is sad to say the least. get off your high horse and try not to be so arrogant and condescending and use some of your knowledge to help instead of belittle and put down others.
Contrary to what you think, your not the only one, who know something.
Some have lived there ( with success ) others have traveled there also.
Just because you run a few sites and learned how to copy and paste, does not make you an expert on all that
is FSU. What you do know, you tend to insult people with when, the almighty decides to enlighten us!
Really, for once take it as it is. Your approach does not work for many, if you truly want to help, maybe just maybe you should think about that and how you could use what you know in a better way!!!!
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NS1,
Chris was completely screwed and you posted this gem:
hope it turns out well, keep your head above the clouds, all will be good!
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NS1,
Chris was completely screwed and you posted this gem:
hope it turns out well, keep your head above the clouds, all will be good!
Yea right, THAT was one of the most ridiculous posts on this thread! (:)
It was apparent very early that Chris was not going to listen to anyone's advice here. Do I think he is doing the right thing? No, but I never came on here and tried to humiliate him like some people did in the guise of "trying to help". No wonder why people are reluctant to post TR's here.
Although I don't agree with what he is doing I still wish him the best... is that out of line too Tom?
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Yea right, THAT was one of the most ridiculous posts on this thread! (:)
It was apparent very early that Chris was not going to listen to anyone's advice here. Do I think he is doing the right thing? No, but I never came on here and tried to humiliate him like some people did in the guise of "trying to help". No wonder why people are reluctant to post TR's here.
Although I don't agree with what he is doing I still wish him the best... is that out of line too Tom?
Chris was headed for the mother of all trainwrecks and "all will be good."
God save us from well-intentioned cheerleaders!
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Yea right, THAT was one of the most ridiculous posts on this thread! (:)
It was apparent very early that Chris was not going to listen to anyone's advice here. Do I think he is doing the right thing? No, but I never came on here and tried to humiliate him like some people did in the guise of "trying to help". No wonder why people are reluctant to post TR's here.
Although I don't agree with what he is doing I still wish him the best... is that out of line too Tom?
Chris was headed for the mother of all trainwrecks and all will be good.
God save us from well-meaning cheerleaders!
Oh yes, God save us indeed!!! Better to humiliate him into leaving the site when he won't listen to any advice!!! :thumbsup:
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Either extreme creates problems.
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If you're prepared to come on a public forum and give a detailed account of the intimacies of your life and seek advice and opinion then you've got to be prepared for a bit of stick. If you can't stand the heat..........kitchen comes to mind. I guess that is what Chris has done.
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If you're prepared to come on a public forum and give a detailed account of the intimacies of your life and seek advice and opinion then you've got to be prepared for a bit of stick. If you can't stand the heat..........kitchen comes to mind. I guess that is what Chris has done.
Of course he should be prepared to hear criticism if he makes his trip public. I never said its better just to smile and say good luck. I had talked to Chris quite a bit on chat before and during his trip. I also warned him about a few things but soon I saw that it was useless to talk to him and just wished him well.
I totally agree people should warn him if they see something is not right. But you can't tell me what happened here didn't go way beyond giving him advice and letting him know that he was headed in the wrong direction.
Just because he made his trip public does not mean that its okay to go to the extremes some people did to humiliate him.
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If you're prepared to come on a public forum and give a detailed account of the intimacies of your life and seek advice and opinion then you've got to be prepared for a bit of stick. If you can't stand the heat..........kitchen comes to mind. I guess that is what Chris has done.
Of course he should be prepared to hear criticism if he makes his trip public. I never said its better just to smile and say good luck. I totally agree people should warn him if they see something is not right. But you can't tell me what happened here didn't go way beyond giving him advice and letting him know that he was headed in the wrong direction.
Just because he made his trip public does not mean that its okay to go to the extremes some people did to humiliate him.
Some of what was said did cut to the bone, I agree.
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Either extreme creates problems.
Agreed. tiphat
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I am reminded of a guy who got divorced and all his friends told him they could see from the start it would not work. So he is ranting on about why his friends didn't tell him. They each said because they knew he would not listen.
Infatuation does strange things to the mind.
If you want to change a hostile persons behavior you do not tell him what to do. He will close on you. Time is usually the best thing that can happen and mixed with questions not necessarily statements. Questions get the person to think and come up with his own answer. You may not like the answer but as it came from within he will likely continue to think of it and with time he may come to his senses.
Chris was a train wreck but there are also times when people do everything wrong and it works out right. This is the internet and not a doctors office. Chris closed the door to his justifications early on. And, sometimes a reason no matter how far fetched is legitimate. From here it all looks so simple and I agree that he was doomed but who am I to know this absolutely? This all not to mention that the total sum of what we got out of him could probably fit in a light 30 minute talk that contains only one side.
I will still wish him well as I know nothing I say will stop him. In his case time, the custody thing and the lack of income will probably do more good for him than anything he got here.
But we may never know.
Scott
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Tom you right. But if your going to post one nice thing, I said! should you not quote all I said.....
Its shit like that! that does not help. Anyone can go pick one line out of many posts and write about.
I wrote several and also talked to Chris in Chat several times.
But Tom your right better to Humiliate him, so he leaves and does not make it bad for others!
Anyone can help some who don`t need it!
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I am reminded of a guy who got divorced and all his friends told him they could see from the start it would not work. So he is ranting on about why his friends didn't tell him. They each said because they knew he would not listen.
Infatuation does strange things to the mind.
If you want to change a hostile persons behavior you do not tell him what to do. He will close on you. Time is usually the best thing that can happen and mixed with questions not necessarily statements. Questions get the person to think and come up with his own answer. You may not like the answer but as it came from within he will likely continue to think of it and with time he may come to his senses.
Chris was a train wreck but there are also times when people do everything wrong and it works out right. This is the internet and not a doctors office. Chris closed the door to his justifications early on. And, sometimes a reason no matter how far fetched is legitimate. From here it all looks so simple and I agree that he was doomed but who am I to know this absolutely? This all not to mention that the total sum of what we got out of him could probably fit in a light 30 minute talk that contains only one side.
I will still wish him well as I know nothing I say will stop him. In his case time, the custody thing and the lack of income will probably do more good for him than anything he got here.
But we may never know.
Scott
Scott you forget we have to online Physics right here.
They have done it a few times, just ask they will tell you :ROFL:
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He was last logged in on the 22nd of this month, so he has hardly vacated the place.
Maybe all the posts have begun to set in, then again maybe not. I'm not going to speculate, though I think he should date locally for his own sake. If he fails at getting sex, than he should get a respectable call girl to visit him at his fixed address. From there he can deliver the goods within a set amount of time, and at least feel better about his situation.
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Nova Scotia
I have a feeling if you or anyone else were lucked up in his flat with him NYE night, smacking him about the face with great advice and pointing him to the most pertinent threads/posts on this forum wouldn't have made a dimes worth of difference. It would be great if we could encourage and point every man we know to the venture but, we know every man isn't cut out for it, prepared for it or able to pull it off. ChrisE is one of those at this time. Sometimes just getting on a plane and going isn't enough.
From his own descriptions his personal problems are in complete disarray. I don't know and didn't read the back story on that but it would appear he is still at point A in getting his priority personal problems settled before bringing a new woman into the mix which it seems, will bring a whole list of other seemingly insurmountable problems for ChrisE that they may not bring for many others. Some guys are not being helped by encouraging them to pursue this venture. Some guys, quite the opposite
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Nova Scotia
I have a feeling if you or anyone else were lucked up in his flat with him NYE night, smacking him about the face with great advice and pointing him to the most pertinent threads/posts on this forum wouldn't have made a dimes worth of difference. It would be great if we could encourage and point every man we know to the venture but, we know every man isn't cut out for it, prepared for it or able to pull it off. ChrisE is one of those at this time. Sometimes just getting on a plane and going isn't enough.
From his own descriptions his personal problems are in complete disarray. I don't know and didn't read the back story on that but it would appear he is still at point A in getting his priority personal problems settled before bringing a new woman into the mix which it seems, will bring a whole list of other seemingly insurmountable problems for ChrisE that they may not bring for many others. Some guys are not being helped by encouraging them to pursue this venture. Some guys, quite the opposite
Your right! But when much of what was said, was said while there or very shortly after is return.
He had 50 reason why should not have gone, but he did! 50 more reasons to run! but he didn`t
We gave him 50 more, why not to stay here.
Was he going to listen to anyone! Likely not! Is he now WHo knows....
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Tom you right. But if your going to post one nice thing, I said! should you not quote all I said.....
Its shit like that! that does not help. Anyone can go pick one line out of many posts and write about.
I wrote several and also talked to Chris in Chat several times.
But Tom your right better to Humiliate him, so he leaves and does not make it bad for others!
Anyone can help some who don`t need it!
I never posted that it was better to humiliate Chris. DUH!
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Long after ChrisE has gone there will be others. They will ,like ChrisE have fantasies about how a woman who can not speak the same language will solve the problems in their lives.
Some, I know are reading and posting here.
Maybe somebody will read and understand, see something of themselves and alter or improve their approach and make a better life.
ChrisE obviously wanted to listen to the feather up the bum merchants who should be ashamed of their actions. They owe ChrisE an apology. They chose to validate his fantasy, maybe to validate their own - who knows.
But I know that if another ChrisE appears here then I and a few others will do the same things, if required, and the fantasisers will do their thing. Tell you guys something though. The fantasisers will be a different crew and those trying to help will be the same guys as posted here.
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Pretty smug post Andrew....
Too bad you don't understand that when people do read this thread in the future they will see that you are not one of the guys who are trying to help. People who try to help someone don't publicly use sarcasm and question a person's mentality like you did to Chris. Please don't try to deny this Andrew... I will just come back here with the quotes, making you look even more silly!
Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with giving advice to someone like Chris, and like Dogsoldier said he does open himself up to criticism by writing a report on an open forum. To criticize him is one thing, but to try to humiliate him in public is pathetic and cowardly, especially when it is done by a middle aged single man hiding behind his computer!
What gives you the right to do this Andrew? Don't try to hide behind the "trying to help" excuse. Anyone who reads this thread can see you are full of BS!
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D672, what do you mean by 'questioning a person's mentality'? What are you trying to say I was doing?
Humiliating Chris, don't be bloody silly. ChrisE did what he did for himself. He did not humiliate himself, he was and is doing the best he can and I certainly did not do anything to humiliate him.
To say that a bloke is making some bad choices and show why is not to humiliate them.
To try to get a bloke to get himself some objective help is not to humiliate them.
The people who honestly, or otherwise, supported Chris in his silliness have contributed to the outcome, whatever that might be.
I can understand those who simply did not understand what was going on, they also learned. But if I and others had stood silent while people like NSOne told ChrisE that everything was fine then we would have been very, very wrong.
The worst that anyone can say, honestly and truthfully, is that they would have said things using different words, but I doubt that anyone would, at this stage, truthfully say that what I wrote was wrong in fact or analysis. When dealing with ChrisE I was also dealing with people like you and NSOne, it is not a conversation between two peers, it is a conversation in a crowded room with lots of noise and raised voices. People were making the noise level higher.
Yes, people will make choices and they will read what I and others wrote and I am happy to stand behind what I wrote. There are people here who already know that they can not say the same thing.
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D672, what do you mean by 'questioning a person's mentality'? What are you trying to say I was doing?
Humiliating Chris, don't be bloody silly. ChrisE did what he did for himself. He did not humiliate himself, he was and is doing the best he can and I certainly did not do anything to humiliate him.
To say that a bloke is making some bad choices and show why is not to humiliate them.
To try to get a bloke to get himself some objective help is not to humiliate them.
The people who honestly, or otherwise, supported Chris in his silliness have contributed to the outcome, whatever that might be.
I can understand those who simply did not understand what was going on, they also learned. But if I and others had stood silent while people like NSOne told ChrisE that everything was fine then we would have been very, very wrong.
The worst that anyone can say, honestly and truthfully, is that they would have said things using different words, but I doubt that anyone would, at this stage, truthfully say that what I wrote was wrong in fact or analysis. When dealing with ChrisE I was also dealing with people like you and NSOne, it is not a conversation between two peers, it is a conversation in a crowded room with lots of noise and raised voices. People were making the noise level higher.
Yes, people will make choices and they will read what I and others wrote and I am happy to stand behind what I wrote. There are people here who already know that they can not say the same thing.
Andrew, I might have made some positive posts, but I also made some harsh comments as well.
I also spoke to him in chat several time, a couple, when we the only ones there.
I did not Humiliate him, like you did, try to play doctor as you did or insult his girl!
So maybe you should reread the whole threat, or have someone with some ability to see what you wrote and explain it to you!!! Again don't spin it, I wrote many things, not one line, yes i try to be positive when possible ( I am a positive person) But I said many other things that were to the point and Agreed with many who were harsh.
Sorry, I don't think kicking someone down is an effect tool as you do.
Tom you made reference to one post, so I took the same assumption you did. and assumed you preferred to humiliate!
Keep in mind when you pick, then out of hundreds to be singled out and assume things! Then this would mean you are good with the approach. So I assumed your preferred the kick when down and humiliate approach, seems fair to me!!
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I suspect that this thread is yet again going away from the Origional Post. Perhaps move it to another section, but I think perhaps all of us said things to each other and ChrisE that could have been said in a better style.
Will ChrisE being a Phoniex we shall read? I hope yes and I doubt that it will happen.
Andrew is correct though even with the removed posts some one might read this thread and realize that this is not a wise undertaking for themselves.
AvHdB
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Someone could read this thread and not join or ask for help.
Regardless of who wrote what, it was not done in a fashion that promotes
true help. We can argue, who said what, where and when.
But if this were the first trip report you read here, what would your thoughts be
of people here and the whole deal???
I think all of us could do better. IMO
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Tom you made reference to one post, so I took the same assumption you did. and assumed you preferred to humiliate!
Keep in mind when you pick, then out of hundreds to be singled out and assume things! Then this would mean you are good with the approach. So I assumed your preferred the kick when down and humiliate approach, seems fair to me!!
If you had read my comment to Christ (reply #314), it wouldn't have been necessary for you to make your dumb-ass presumption about my preference.
So you don't have to assume... again... I couldn't bring myself to post anything substantial because of the overwhelming hopelessness of the situation.
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D672, what do you mean by 'questioning a person's mentality'? What are you trying to say I was doing?
Humiliating Chris, don't be bloody silly. ChrisE did what he did for himself. He did not humiliate himself, he was and is doing the best he can and I certainly did not do anything to humiliate him.
To say that a bloke is making some bad choices and show why is not to humiliate them.
To try to get a bloke to get himself some objective help is not to humiliate them.
The people who honestly, or otherwise, supported Chris in his silliness have contributed to the outcome, whatever that might be.
I can understand those who simply did not understand what was going on, they also learned. But if I and others had stood silent while people like NSOne told ChrisE that everything was fine then we would have been very, very wrong.
The worst that anyone can say, honestly and truthfully, is that they would have said things using different words, but I doubt that anyone would, at this stage, truthfully say that what I wrote was wrong in fact or analysis. When dealing with ChrisE I was also dealing with people like you and NSOne, it is not a conversation between two peers, it is a conversation in a crowded room with lots of noise and raised voices. People were making the noise level higher.
Yes, people will make choices and they will read what I and others wrote and I am happy to stand behind what I wrote. There are people here who already know that they can not say the same thing.
REALLY Andrew? You are wondering how come I say you are questioning Chris's mentality? You say that what you wrote did not humiliate him???
To be honest I did not think you would be stupid enough to deny this!!! Since you seem to be too lazy to go back and look at what you said here are a couple examples...
Much of what you have written has been daft, wrongheaded and stupid.
Much of what you have written has suggested, to me at least, that there is, at the least, an undercurrent of something not quite right with your mental wiring.
And then there was this ....
As of now it is hard to imagine that anyone, no matter how insensitive and empathy deficient they may be is not finally coming to understand that Chris is, shall we say, 'a little damaged'.
And you say this is not questioning Chris's mentality??? This is not humiliating him??? Andrew, you are nothing but a liar. You did not have to go to the extremes you did to get your point across.
And if you can't understand what we were talking about in the last few posts... me and NS1 do not agree with how Chris is proceeding.. we both have told him that he's making a mistake. But when we saw he would not not listen we gave up and just wished the best for him... even though we both thought the was slim chance that it would work for him. We were not supporting him, you are making that up in your head.
To tell you the truth, many times I agree with things you write... but it seems like sometimes you just can't help yourself and you push the envelope, you go too far. You did not have to go to the extremes you did to get your point across... you did it for self satisfaction, not to help or give advice. So do not try to hide behind this lie again.
In my opinion it is YOU Andrew, who has something not quite right upstairs. You have been here on this site for many years and according to what Manny once told me are not actively seeking an FSU relationship.
Why are you here then? 99% of the people on this site are at some stage of having an FSU relationship... from what I understand you are not.
Is your life so empty that you have to come here and live vicariously off other peoples lives? Is being here the only social communication in your life? If this is the case, I feel real sorry for you Andrew!
You are right Andrew, many people will come and go here over the next few years. To have you say that you... a person who is not seeking a FSU relationship... will be here is rather sad. But do not get me wrong, if this site is the biggest social interaction in your life I think its best that you do stay.... I'd hate to hear that something bad happened to you because you had no meaning in your life!!
All I'm saying is behave... and at least pretend to have a little respect for other people.
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d772, do you have andrewfifobia? Any logic if many times you agree with things he writes?... :biggrin:
and why this thread got the second life last week? Guys, you are impatient ... wait till april to see ChrisE wedding photoes... I bet he'll post its for sure :popcorn: ;D
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d772, do you have andrewfifobia? Any logic if many times you agree with things he writes?... :biggrin:
and why this thread got the second life last week? Guys, you are impatient ... wait till april to see ChrisE wedding photoes... I bet he'll post its for sure :popcorn: ;D
Andrewfifobia? Hardly! :laugh: He asked for confirmation of what I said... I gave it to him. He falsely accused me and NS1 of supporting Chris... I corrected him.
And yes, I said I agree with many things he says... but he does not have to go overboard by humiliating him in public. Chris is not the only one he has done this to.
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Tom, You have great Insight, but you prefer, one liners, that normally are quite sarcastic.
If anyone, I mean Anyone!!! does not agree with you,, you get upset and attack.
Interesting tactic,, but gets thin after awhile. And very old.
Andrew, has a wealth of information, and if he were not so arrogant, he could likely actually help a lot of people.
But, he talks down to people so often, that messages gets lost and helps no one.
So really what would be the point, other than some sort of self serving satisfaction!
Think about how sad that is!
As far as not looking for an FSU women, I have a few ideas on that :chuckle:
Thata a whole new thread on its own :laugh:
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As a sense of decency to the newbies I think these posts should stay. There are a lot of contraversal posts in the thread and I believe that the newbies should know more about the source of them... and know that not everyone believes that it is ok for people to "run" a person off their own trip report.
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As a sense of decency to the newbies I think these posts should stay. There are a lot of contraversal posts in the thread and I believe that the newbies should know more about the source of them... and know that not everyone believes that it is ok for people to "run" a person off their own trip report.
I agree!
There is a lot of bad here, but hopefully someone can still learn from this.
Despite TR that went very sideways, many of us PM people and meet people,
that you connect with and reading this will give Newbies insight to all of that and chat etc.
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672, I disagree if the origional and all the postings stood as is - fine but the last ten or so posts do not help a newbie or ChrisE.
I feel move and post where they fit in better. If the moderators do not understand that Andrew's style offends many people and I think that is in particular to the "newbies" so be it. A pity though. As I have written and others also, Andrew often has an insight that is valuable. For what it is worth his postings run an odd cycle. But I suspect Andrew has gotten the message so lets move on.
My problem is the offensive postings of AndrewFi have been polished away. It does not make sense anymore.
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672, I disagree if the origional and all the postings stood as is - fine but the last ten or so posts do not help a newbie or ChrisE.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. tiphat
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As a sense of decency to the newbies I think these posts should stay. There are a lot of contraversal posts in the thread and I believe that the newbies should know more about the source of them... and know that not everyone believes that it is ok for people to "run" a person off their own trip report.
I agree!
There is a lot of bad here, but hopefully someone can still learn from this.
Despite TR that went very sideways, many of us PM people and meet people,
that you connect with and reading this will give Newbies insight to all of that and chat etc.
I agree also. These posts are the reason I am going to go back and read this thread.
Well yes, the posts are also entertaining... :chuckle:
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Tom, You have great Insight, but you prefer, one liners, that normally are quite sarcastic.
If anyone, I mean Anyone!!! does not agree with you,, you get upset and attack.
Interesting tactic,, but gets thin after awhile. And very old.
Andrew, has a wealth of information, and if he were not so arrogant, he could likely actually help a lot of people.
But, he talks down to people so often, that messages gets lost and helps no one.
So really what would be the point, other than some sort of self serving satisfaction!
Think about how sad that is!
As far as not looking for an FSU women, I have a few ideas on that :chuckle:
Thata a whole new thread on its own :laugh:
NSOne, yes, for you I make a special effort. You have told me yourself that you are not so bright and I try to accommodate your special needs.
You can't expect to have it both ways can you?
I do not generally 'write down' to a level, indeed more often it is the case that people do not understand what I have written. Think a little before writing sentences that have contradictions within them.
I think that if you and a few others had understood a little earlier on what was going on then the thread would have looked somewhat different. As I already noted we have different 'reading speeds' and some just have to catch up later.
Dealing with the people who take longer to catch on obviously has an effect upon what is said and how it is said. For example, this post is unnecessary for most people here, for you though, well, you already made clear your limitations. :)
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Tom, You have great Insight, but you prefer, one liners, that normally are quite sarcastic.
If anyone, I mean Anyone!!! does not agree with you,, you get upset and attack.
Interesting tactic,, but gets thin after awhile. And very old.
Andrew, has a wealth of information, and if he were not so arrogant, he could likely actually help a lot of people.
But, he talks down to people so often, that messages gets lost and helps no one.
So really what would be the point, other than some sort of self serving satisfaction!
Think about how sad that is!
As far as not looking for an FSU women, I have a few ideas on that :chuckle:
Thata a whole new thread on its own :laugh:
NSOne, yes, for you I make a special effort. You have told me yourself that you are not so bright and I try to accommodate your special needs.
You can't expect to have it both ways can you?
I do not generally 'write down' to a level, indeed more often it is the case that people do not understand what I have written. Think a little before writing sentences that have contradictions within them.
I think that if you and a few others had understood a little earlier on what was going on then the thread would have looked somewhat different. As I already noted we have different 'reading speeds' and some just have to catch up later.
Dealing with the people who take longer to catch on obviously has an effect upon what is said and how it is said. For example, this post is unnecessary for most people here, for you though, well, you already made clear your limitations. :)
God is funny that way Andrew. You may be right! I doubt it.
I should learn to copy and paste as you do :chuckle:
but you do have to find the BS you post.
To much time, likely you using hookers instead of looking real relationship saves you
time, to spend here and your other sites. Not my thing, but hey if it works for you, go for it!
You over inflated ego, needs to be fed in one form or another.
If I help with that its a good thing.
But for all your posting of such BS. I really do live in the real world, not the virtual one as you!
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What gives you the right to do this Andrew? Don't try to hide behind the "trying to help" excuse. Anyone who reads this thread can see you are full of BS!
My one piece of advice is these circumstances is this: Judicious use the the "ignore" feature will often enhance one's site experience. :)
Best,
B/B
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What gives you the right to do this Andrew? Don't try to hide behind the "trying to help" excuse. Anyone who reads this thread can see you are full of BS!
My one piece of advice is these circumstances is this: Judicious use the the "ignore" feature will often enhance one's site experience. :)
Best,
B/B
I see no need for that, I'm fine with what you Mods allow here. Just voicing my opinion. :)
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How about what's going on with Chris? Dude! WTF are you?
We've chatted a few times and I've been a bit out of the loop for a while but I'm glad to hear that you made the trip. Absolutely a pretty different sort of trip report. Not a huge fairytale romance nor a complete train wreck but one of those things where the wheels are coming off the tracks and the thing goes into a tunnel. Now I'm left wondering what's going on.
It's sort of confusing as far as the whole thing with your children. Did you have visitation with them? Would you have ditched visitation with them to move to Ukraine? If so, did you make alternate plans for visitation?
I'm sure you can't discuss what the ex did to turn things around 180 degrees but it was probably pretty bad not only for her to lose custody and also for her to agree to let you take the kids out of the country. Knowing the court systems here I can't even think of what a woman could do to have this happen.
I do hope that you're doing ok. An update would be cool. All I will add is that I've been married a few 3 times. I've done it every way possible. I lived with the girl first, didn't live with the girl first, married because she was hot and things were passionate, married because logically it made sense and she was stable and (supposedly) devoted to a successful marriage and a strong relationship, married because I was crazy in love with the girl and on and on and on.
The point is that there is no magic recipe for success. It's still all a crap shoot. What seems solid today can leave you wondering how you got to where you are five years from now. The best you can do is try to keep the odds in your favor. In my experience, the only thing that makes it all worthwhile even if it falls to crap and the only thing that hopefully stacks the odds a little bit in your favor is having someone that you're nuts about who is also nuts about you. Is she nuts about you? Are you nuts about her? Do you hate being apart and is the relationship based on a real friendship that has been overtaken by love? Sappy, I know but it is what it is. Oh... and sex! Hot, steamy, unbridled mad monkey sex!
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D672, firstly, do you think that ChrisE as we saw from what he wrote was entirely healthy, thinking in an optimum fashion? Or do you think that something was not right about how he was acting and presenting his situation and his succession of 'plans'?
If you think he was acting entirely normally then we'd have to agree to disagree. However, as we know, you came to understand that he was not fine; so, from where did this stuff within him come from? His lungs, his feet, his penis? Were these the organs of his body that were driving suboptimal choices and fantasy plans?
I think we'd agree that these organs were NOT at the root of his situation.
Guess which one it was?
Yes, that's right, the head, the brain, the mind.
I do not think Chris is insane, mad or other words that you might choose to ascribe to my descriptions. I think that he is suffering with the effects of stress, but I am not a therapist. I only have a modicum of commonsense, but guess what, stress is a mental condition, it has physical effects, but it is about the old noodle, the noggin. To say so is no more humiliating or wrong than to note that a person has a bad cold or measles.
The guy has had, from what he told us, a huge amount of stress and the outcome is what we might expect to see. A bloke divorced from his wife, lost contact with his kids, friends and family, no proper job, severe money issues and it'd seem problems with his housing. Any one of those things is enough to make a bloke overstressed and likely to show the signs of it. He has seven, count them seven severe stress factors at one time.
It is no wonder that his reaction to what was in his life was to do exactly what he has been doing and exactly why it is that he needs some help to get stuff organised. And who does one turn to in times like these? Friends, family (not available to him) and professional counseling from a person trained to help people deal with matters of the head. So, please do not give me crap about me humiliating the poor bloke. Covering up your shortcomings with misdirected anger toward me, the person who DID try to get him to do the main thing to help him start getting back on track.
You are guilty of using very broad indeed I'd say 'weasel words' to broaden and justify an unjustified attack upon me. What does 'attacking mentality' mean? What were you really trying to say to me? You may have some hangups about mental illnesses that I do not have. Do not blame me for your prejudices. But more importantly, if you are going to be critical then use critical thought, use objective words. The wording you used indicated to me that you are afraid to say what you think, or are afraid that you can not justify your prejudices and so use made up generalities to take a pop at a bloke who tried to help another bloke.
Don't criticise me for your lateness to parade.
Don't criticise me for your prejudices.
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(sigh) AGAIN I will point you back to my posts where I said I did not agree with how Chris was proceeding. this is the third time I'm saying it. Please try to comprehend it this time. My whole point is how you handled it and went overboard.
As you said, you are not a therapist. So why would you even mention Chris's mentality and say you can't understand why anyone would not think Chris is "a little damaged". No need for that. You didn't post that to help Chris, you posted that because you know the other readers would see that and you get some kind of kick out of it. Totally self gratification.
Misdirected anger towards you? No, not at all Andrew. If anything I feel sorry for you. What I did was scold you just as a person would do to a child... and give you a little taste of you own medicine by going a little in depth about your mental state. I see I got your attention. How does it feel to be the one under the microscope?
It is really sad to see that a grown man would act so immature just to get some recognition from his peers. It makes me wonder if YOU have anyone to turn to when you are having hard times. What you do really remind me of is a child who does bad things to get attention from his parents.
Yes, I did use some broad terms. I actually changed what I originally was going to write because I was being polite. And please stop using the "everyone is picking on me... poor Andrew! " card. Its getting tiresome. Just because someone stands up to your arrogant ways doesn't mean you are getting picked on. Again... more childish behavior.
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How does it feel to be the one under the microscope?
It is really sad to see that a grown man would act so immature just to get some recognition from his peers. It makes me wonder if YOU have anyone to turn to when you are having hard times. What you do really remind me of is a child who does bad things to get attention from his parents.
Andrew here is the reality from my standpoint (& I suspect others). You can and do post insightfully. I have written this before.
There are other times though you come over as a daisy cutter at the church picnic. Many of the things you write could be done with words in a way that is not offensive and off putting to lurkers and new members. Further I suspect you at time alienate those who could use some help and insight.
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I think it a little ironic Andrew. You wanted an intervention. Trying to shock and awe another person into reality while believing that reality has damaged him.
He was not as strong as many here or maybe just got fed up, took his toys and went home.
The other side who do not believe in the shock and awe method try to give the same back to you but you will have nothing of it. You are stronger and you do not run.
What does this say about shock and awe?
Scott
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D672, firstly, do you think that ChrisE as we saw from what he wrote was entirely healthy, thinking in an optimum fashion? Or do you think that something was not right about how he was acting and presenting his situation and his succession of 'plans'?
The guy has had, from what he told us, a huge amount of stress and the outcome is what we might expect to see. A bloke divorced from his wife, lost contact with his kids, friends and family, no proper job, severe money issues and it'd seem problems with his housing. Any one of those things is enough to make a bloke overstressed and likely to show the signs of it. He has seven, count them seven severe stress factors at one time.
I think much of his TR was pretty normal and he reacted as many others would. There was much "normal" to be had there if you skip all the debate about red flags and read it straight. Try focusing on the good parts.
Some would say this whole RW thing is perverted and we are all crazy. Indeed your seven extreme stresses seem enough to institutionalize the poor wretch and possibly cause a bloke to commit suicide isn't it?
An overdose of reality can easily be the cause of temporary insanity. Of course it is only normal that a person such as above will turn to fantasy as self preservation. A therapist might go either way depending on his training and his evaluation of the person. He might slap him across the face or tell him to go to the nearest carnival and have some fun. A bit more reality and the poor chap may snap out of it or, may end up in suicide. A little fantasy plus time may help to get past the worst and some of the pieces can be worked on separately. Without knowing him you chose the first maybe because it once helped you. If he is living on the edge then you are playing with fire and pushing him away from the help he may need.
That little bit was for you as you are certain that he is headed into the dark abyss. I have said before that if his life is in such a shambles then he will not be able to import a RW. He has no proper job, no home, about to acquire two rug rats that will suck his money and time. How will he even pass the support papers and import a RW? So why take his fantasy away? Why play with pushing him even more? It has been said that too much reality will make you insane and the way back to the norm is to introduce a little fantasy.
I see things differently.
What, near 50% of people go through divorce and custody and many of those suffer a bad financial setback. Probably all should see a therapist but most do not and eventually they get their lives back on track. Many times it goes on for years. Lots of stress indeed but no need to stop living life. Move on and try to make things better. Probably a lot of guys here have been through the divorce and custody thing.
1. You say he lost contact with his kids and I do not see what you base this on other than he does not presently have custody. I think he has contact. Maybe I missed something.
2. You say he has no friends. He has said on more than one occasion that he has friends. He also has some here it seems. He was moving in with a friend.
3. You think he lost contact with his family but based on what? He has mentioned his family.
4. You say he has no proper job only because he mentioned a pay problem and who hasn't had a pay problem especially after a vacation?
5. Severe money problems? well duh, he probably pays most of his money to child support and possibly alimony but nobody here knows what his financial status is other than he has had no reason to live a normal life after the divorce. He lived cheaply in order to save for moving outside the states. He might just have a bundle stuck away.
6. No proper home, of course, see last reason.
His custody problem is going to take a lot of his time and add more financial problems to his life. He will need a proper apartment, will need to save more money and his expenses will double. He will have no time for anything for trying to raise the children. The custody thing is going to be a big stress and possibly a blessing. It is definitely going to keep him totally busy for many months ahead. Maybe he will find he cannot afford a wife now or if he can then her help may well be needed and a good thing.
Maybe, just maybe he has the money, the job and the sanity to pull this off.
But seven severe stresses I do not see from the information available. A guy who really needs therapy? Maybe no more than any divorced guy with custody problems. I would need to see how it all is affecting his daily life at the moment. He is not talking unfortunately.
I would like to see him go the whole way and succeed. I think much of this was blown out of proportion with very little evidence.
Scott
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While all this bickering was going on I went back and reread the TR. Try it without all the red flag stuff. Read it direct from his post pages, only what he wrote. You might find it a little different than when caught up in all the flag stuff. You might pull out a telling sentence or two you missed before.
The first 4 days were fairly uneventful but then there was the new years fiasco. Evidently one worker shows up drunk and several people here think that is not very likely (I think it is very likely on this day of days). The second problem arises when another person forgets to lock the store door and the place gets robbed. Again some think it unlikely but on this day of all days is it really so unlikely that this other worker was also a little drunk and or running out for the big celebration? As unlikely as it may seem it is within the realm of possiblilty for this area of the world and especially on this day. I would not discount both of these things happening. Even if you believe the opposite you cannot say it without a reasonable doubt given the place and day.
The girl could not phone as there was no phone to call. So judge her for not coming to his home at 3-5AM or whenever if you will.
From here you start to get the complaints.
1. Because of work she couldn't meet him at the airport but sent a second person, How big a red flag is this?
2. She was not kissy enough or hold hands in public. The hand holding is debatable. The kissy part depends on the girl.
3. Did he buy her the new dress? In days long past it was thought that this was a test for him but here now it is a red flag.
4. Did he pay to much in the market? If he got screwed then it was from the register, not the girl.
5. Did he pay way to much for other things? He is not a very good planner and his terp was not honest.
All this talk of red flags is mostly rubbish now after the fact. Flat out garbage. The best you can do is the one about her work break-in and you cannot be totally sure it did not happen.
Now Chris is there and he is saying that this lady is sincere. You are not there and think she is not sincere. I wonder if it would have been different if the work thing had not happened. Would the little things have mattered? Is it so difficult to believe that he found a girl who has a difficult job and slightly older fashioned values than your run of the mill sleep with you on the 2nd day gal?
I was pulled into the red flags also. It was a hell of a coincidence that her store was robbed that night but you know it must happen to someone just as one of us died in Moscow during the Chechen theater hostage thing a few years ago. If you think this girl is a scammer then go read some real scam TRs.
Try looking at the good side.
She accepted a pretty crappy initial gift of generic cosmetics with a smile. She is fine with remaining in her homeland. She takes him to meet the family. She watches his money when she is in control. Chris sees sincerity in her and that is most important because you cannot see her. She does not pull him out shopping every day but comes to talk and spend time with him as she can. She sits apart but attentive to him. (I also like to watch the person I talk to especially at first.) She is acting cautious and not like a scammer. There is a history behind her that backs up her caution we are told. We do not believe because of the red flags and to some point even Chris does not believe but I have known girls like this in Russia. She is not so different. She may not be very smart or she may not have time to be very smart and she is said to be very old fashioned.
There came eventually the big conversation and it solved the affection problem. This is the same conversation you all saw on a different more recent TR and it happens sometimes with cautious girls that hold back affection with near total strangers they might get married to.
It also comes to light that much of the money problems were due to the terp and is that so surprising?
But by this time the flaggers are foaming at the mouth. The girl gets cut down and we now doubt her age is even correct. We count the lines on her forehead. She must be guilty of all these things that happened or at least in collusion with the terp. Chris is of course broken and in need of a straight jacket. He can hardly function.
I think that outside of the work break-in you will see a pretty normal TR with a good ending. The break-in could well have happened, most all the red flags were explained and there were a lot of positive things happened. And Chris? He has problems and may not be the brightest bulb around but he did not do too bad.
The red flag stuff is just distraction and entertainment.
Scott
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Scott and d672:
Good posts. Scott, specially yours. I hope others would read them and learn to show a little empathy, specially when they are not wearing the posters shoes.
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Scott I think your view is very interesting, given that you have spent a lot of time in the country.
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Scott and d672:
Good posts. Scott, specially yours. I hope others would read them and learn to show a little empathy, specially when they are not wearing the posters shoes.
X2... great posts Scott.
Thanks Muzh tiphat
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Yea some good posts here.
I'd like to think I can draw my own conclusions and I'm usually pretty stubborn but at times, particularly if it's a weak thread (and I'm lacking real interest), ive found myself perhaps leaning a certain way if its written strongly enough.
I've not re read this whole saga again and can't remember exactly what I said, but I recall thinking that something wasn't right. It maybe wasn't scandle of the century but I found myself thinking, 'I wouldn't have put up with that shit'.
Perhaps we'll never know how it ends but the only guy who must be able to tell if it's worth perusing is ChrisE? At least I hope he does and I wish you all the best. Would be great to get an update on where you are?
Ross
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WOW! So many people :dh:!! I had thought this thread had finally died, but I check back to find another 5 pages with almost nothing but assumptions and drivel. First of all, I NEVER started this thread looking for advice, but only to detail my adventures in Ukraine. Yet this has turned into a complete circus, and I am very disappointed at how this whole fiasco has evolved. I didn't appreciate all the negativity here, but I'm not thin skinned. It really was uncalled for when it was found that I couoldn't be intimidated to turn the guns on my lady. But I thank those who called this out and put a stop to it.
I will say that I have not been scared off the site, rather I have been very busy setting up the wedding and tying up loose ends here. Yes, I AM getting married on March 24, and leaving in less than 2 weeks. Anyone who has had to deal with a ZAGS wedding knows what is involved, along with all the normal preperations such as setting up transportation, flowers, arranging for photos and videos, legal documents, etc., with an 8 hour time difference and while working full time.
If anything, I had thought to maybe see a congratulations or two for finally finding a very wonderful woman, and having the determination and comittment to see everything through despite the difficulties and setbacks. I agree my life is no bed of roses, and I am not a wealthy person-I have to work hard to earn the cash to see this through. This takes a lot of sacrifice, which I see has mostly been taken the wrong way. I had been living my life the past year with the assumption I would eventually be relocating to Ukraine, so since things have changed in the short term other arrangements have been made. Life tends to throw curveballs, so a person has to adapt to changing circumstances as I have done. The deal with my kids has been a doozey and came out of the blue. But I have the greatest respect and admiration for my lady to volunteer to take the chance and try to be a good stepmother if the opportunity arises. This was all her idea-I just informed her of the situation when it happened. To me this makes her one of the best catches I could have ever asked for as it proves to me what she is made of. Anyone else here commenting on this has no idea what the details are, and have no business making judgements.
So to sum it up, I have found a woman who has won my heart without having to let her panties fly to "seal the deal". This is a woman with great personal values and integrety who is very caring and strong. She is as determined as I am to make this relationship work, and has been fully dedicated to to me and our relationship. She has been working her job, making all the wedding arrangements along with her sister, and even taking accelerated English classes. I may have a lot to do on my end, but for now she has the most work to do. I will have my share of work once we are married and have to get the K3 going, and have to set up a proper homestead that suits her very personal and specific requirements as this is her only request. I agree that my relationship is not a textbook case, and this really seems to rub most of the peanut gallery the wrong way. But, I have found what I have been looking for, unconventional as it may seem to an outsider. I have completely fallen for an incredible woman, and she is completely into me as well despite the comments. All I want is a good life with a loving woman, and I have found the ONE with everything I could have asked for.
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I wish you the very best of good fortune. I hope that everything turns out as you want and hope it will and that the concerns of almost all of us turn out to be misplaced.
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I wish you the very best of good fortune. I hope that everything turns out as you want and hope it will and that the concerns of almost all of us turn out to be misplaced.
I can only agree with this. Chris we all here wish the other members the best possible. Many people here have many years of experience and have many guys seen burned in one way or another. We just don't like to see this happening!
I just hope you'll be happy together and keep posting here as well about your future and how things are going.
You are the only person who was there, know how things went etc. There are many people here who didn't follow the textbook and still were successful. The textbook is only there as a guideline and there are always exceptions to it to proof that it's only a textbook with guidelines!
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ChrisE,
Congrats to you and your lady.
tiphat :thumbsup:
+1 to what herrie wrote.
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Chris, all the best wishes for you and your wife-to-be from me tiphat
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Yep it's all been said in one way or another so I sincerely wish you the very best for the future with your wife to be.
Keep on posting.
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Yes, definitely stay in touch.
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Chris, it doesn't matter how you found your lady, no one way is the right way, whatever works for you is the right way, just as long as it all works out well for all concerned and no one suffers, especially the kids, then we will be happy for you. :)
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Congratulations tiphat
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Congrats and Good Luck!
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Congrats Chris... hope everything goes good for you. :thumbsup:
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Good Luck Chris :)
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As with any marriage, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you two. :thumbsup:
Congratulations and good life!
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Chris,
Congratulations!
Having written this I think you have chosen a very difficult path.
Yes I understand the limitations on funds and time, but. . .
I have always admired your perseverance and I as others have said you are the only one to have spent any time with your future partner but you are still in my opinion taking a gamble. I hope it pays of and you have a rich life together.
Please keep us abreast of how it goes for you and your bride/wife.
AvHdB
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Good luck, Chris... tiphat
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kumbaya :-*
Scott
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I moved the stuff about kettles and hot water to a fresh topic.
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=16530.0 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=16530.0)
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Just wondering how Chris is getting on these days? Anybody heard from him?
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Just wondering how Chris is getting on these days? Anybody heard from him?
Well, given the year long deafening silence, I'll take a guess at crash 'n burn.
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Just wondering how Chris is getting on these days? Anybody heard from him?
Well, given the year long deafening silence, I'll take a guess at crash 'n burn.
What a shock (:). And you wonder why people think of you as just a negative twit.
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I just had a look at this and read the first three pages of this TR. Now I finally know who Vinny was referring to when he kept mentioning someone being locked in their flat on New Years Eve!! :chuckle:
Only a hardcore masochist would put up with this sheet and still want to get married.... ???
Great read though; it should be required that anyone even remotely considering going to Ukraine should read this.
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not masochists but like lonely men with little understanding of how real people conduct relationships
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Just wondering how Chris is getting on these days? Anybody heard from him?
Well, given the year long deafening silence, I'll take a guess at crash 'n burn.
What a shock (:). And you wonder why people think of you as just a negative twit.
With so much ammunition just laying around, it's kinda hard not to be seen that way unless you are one of the kumbya squad. Reality is unforgiving.
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Just wondering how Chris is getting on these days? Anybody heard from him?
Well, given the year long deafening silence, I'll take a guess at crash 'n burn.
What a shock (:). And you wonder why people think of you as just a negative twit.
Oh yeah, and did you actually read his last post on the forum, you know, the one that said they didn't get married yet after all?
Sure they could now be living a life of bliss together but the signs just aren't that promising. Anyone that says differently is a bit a blind idiot.
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Just wondering how Chris is getting on these days? Anybody heard from him?
Well, given the year long deafening silence, I'll take a guess at crash 'n burn.
What a shock (:). And you wonder why people think of you as just a negative twit.
With so much ammunition just laying around, it's kinda hard not to be seen that way unless you are one of the kumbya squad. Reality is unforgiving.
You are 100% correct about this guy, but that's not the point. The obvious rarely needs to be pointed out to the masses, that you did or felt is necessary to do in your usual nagative way speaks volumes. Just saying.
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ChrisE came by the chatroom a few months ago. He is not with Olga from Lugansk anymore.
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Just wondering how Chris is getting on these days? Anybody heard from him?
Well, given the year long deafening silence, I'll take a guess at crash 'n burn.
What a shock (:). And you wonder why people think of you as just a negative twit.
With so much ammunition just laying around, it's kinda hard not to be seen that way unless you are one of the kumbya squad. Reality is unforgiving.
You are 100% correct about this guy, but that's not the point. The obvious rarely needs to be pointed out to the masses, that you did or felt is necessary to do in your usual nagative way speaks volumes. Just saying.
I think you are underestimating the masses ability to be incredibly obtuse especially in this arena where self delusion is the order of the day.
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He is not with Olga from Lugansk anymore.
I would have to say - that doesn't exactly represent the most shocking news I've ever heard!!
It seems there are many new members who have never read this topic - Anyway, its a pretty legendary one which could really benefit from the sticky treatment to keep it more visible for new guys!!
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Anyway, its a pretty legendary one which could really benefit from the sticky treatment to keep it more visible for new guys!!
Indeed. Duly stickied.
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And I thought it was Vinny who was locked in an apartment over NY :laugh:
Certainly a few lessons to be learnt for any new venturers to the FSU.
Be nice to know what finally happened though, I'm sure this story brings back memories with many of the more experienced here, albeit only in parts.
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What's this thread doing in the train wreck room? I mean, the train may have jumped the track and be headed for the ground, but it hasn't crashed yet. As another poster pointed out, all relationships are crapshoots. All the criticisms that have made just make the odds against the relationship working out much stronger. Doesn't mean he can't roll a 20 and it works for him.
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What's this thread doing in the train wreck room? I mean, the train may have jumped the track and be headed for the ground, but it hasn't crashed yet. As another poster pointed out, all relationships are crapshoots. All the criticisms that have made just make the odds against the relationship working out much stronger. Doesn't mean he can't roll a 20 and it works for him.
It crashed. The thread hasn't been updated but it definitely crashed.
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What's this thread doing in the train wreck room? I mean, the train may have jumped the track and be headed for the ground, but it hasn't crashed yet. As another poster pointed out, all relationships are crapshoots. All the criticisms that have made just make the odds against the relationship working out much stronger. Doesn't mean he can't roll a 20 and it works for him.
Bobby, Welcome to RUA ~ perhaps you might want to make a proper introduction.
In different ways various members pointed out too ChrisE before during and after that he was on the wrong track and that Casey Jones was the other conductor. From the last message I had from ChrisE over Skype I understand that he has stopped searching in the former Soviet Union for a partner.
This trip report is a grim reminder for those who lack certain skills.
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The adventure started like this
Lugansk airport --> Donetsk 90 miles
"This was my first experience on the roads in the FSU outside the city, and as expected, they were in terrible condition. So between the roads being so bumpy, and the driving of the taxi and the other people on the road, let’s just say I didn’t need coffee to stay awake during that 2 hour trip, even after being up for almost 22 hours by this time.
We picked Olga up at the place she works. Olga’s friend had been telling me how excited she was to meet me, and it’s all she could talk about. Apparently she had been telling anyone who would listen! Lol When she walked up to the cab, I got out right away to see the most beautiful woman looking at me, giving me this big happy grin! She said privet, I replied in kind. And not being able to resist, I grabbed her, and picked her up in a big bear hug! She just threw her arms around me and laughed! ;D We got back in the taxi, and headed to the apartment she had rented for me.
The first thing she did was to grab my hand, and hold it the entire trip. When we arrived, this is when I got my first shock-the taxi bill of nearly $400! Well, there went my budget, and a good chunk of my spending money for the trip. Looks like I’m taking the bus back to the airport! Lol"
Newbies find the mistake.
Always page 1
"I was told it won’t happen until after the holidays. Guess I don’t have much choice! Of course Olga’s friend came along, and they decided they wanted to go for a walk.
We made it about 3 blocks until she spotted a mall-of course Olga wanted to stop! She made a beeline right to a woman’s fashion store and soon was picking out dresses to try. "
Newbies find the mistake
Always page 1
" After the shopping trip, we ended coming back to the apartment. The girls again made food, saying I should eat more! Lol But it wasn’t long after that Olga started to get repeated phone calls. Apparently her work was calling wanting her to come in. The worker that day had come in drunk, and they needed someone to take over. "
Newbies find the mistake.
And it is endless
this one is a firework :
" My past experience with the pro dater in Kharkov showed me that those kinds of women don’t invest anything but only want to reap the rewards. Olga has not been like this, instead she has been very sweet and attentive. Whenever we go out, she always takes possession of my hand, as if to show anyone going past that I am hers.
But I am still a bit confused about her signals. She will sit with her friend instead of me, but perhaps so she can look at me when we talk, as she keeps eye contact and does focus on me during conversations. When I open the door, I am given a beautiful smile and a genuine look of happiness to see me. This cannot be faked!
When we say goodbye for the evening, we give each other a big hug, and I kiss her cheek. But I am yet to get a kiss in return. I know she has some pretty heavy emotional baggage from past experiences, and her past with dating Western men has not been a good one for her either. "
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Chris was one of worst, most clueless, stubborn , blind to the truth
Individuals that I ever met.
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Chris was one of worst, most clueless, stubborn , blind to the truth
Individuals that I ever met.
He was ill, in a state of depression and needed professional help to help him to cope with a metric shit tonne of nasty stuff in his life. People in his situation take desperate measures in an attempt to regain control of their lives.
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Chris was one of worst, most clueless, stubborn , blind to the truth
Individuals that I ever met.
He was ill, in a state of depression and needed professional help to help him to cope with a metric shit tonne of nasty stuff in his life. People in his situation take desperate measures in an attempt to regain control of their lives.
Isn't it that he wanted something so badly that he couldn't see the blindly obvious? I don't know the guy.
Bit like people buying a car, they want it so bad they can't see the faults, we call that a buyers eye :)
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The other comments may be true though I have never known mental problems to be a reason for failure. I think it is easier to prove that he just did not have enough income to qualify for the visa let alone complete the rest.
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Finally got through this one. On to the next.
J was here
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Finally got through this one. On to the next.
J was here
Sometimes it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. :)
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Finally got through this one. On to the next.
J was here
The key info can be found on the first 5 pages, the outcome was a foregone conclusion :(
But congrats for the stamina for getting through the whole 37 pages tiphat
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Many were around for the live version, including some nights in chat,
nice guy, with no hope and predictable results, wonder how he is doing.
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The puzzling part was that the guy was on site for about a year before this all happened and knew about all the red flags to look out for. He even participated in a lot of threads warning other guys what to watch out for and seemed to have his head on straight. Then this happened and it was like he threw everything out the window and ignored everything everyone was telling him... which was run! Very strange.
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Bumping thread since I just finished reading the entire thread. :king:
Last post from the originator was that he was going to get married on March 24, 2012. Then you "high tail it out". Most successful or failed online relationship experiences are NOT posted. If you "won the jackpot", you disappear. If you got "ripped off", you disappear. :coffeeread:
P.S. March 2012 was not a good time for me. :( I hope his was better.
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About 2 years ago I understood he did indeed get remarried I believe to a woman from Ukraine.
When I spoke with him (as this thread happened) he was a decent guy, if not just a bit chaotic and naive. Evidently he does not want to have anything to do with RUA that it is the reason for a lack of updates.
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About 2 years ago I understood he did indeed get remarried I believe to a woman from Ukraine.
When I spoke with him (as this thread happened) he was a decent guy, if not just a bit chaotic and naive. Evidently he does not want to have anything to do with RUA that it is the reason for a lack of updates.
I'm shocked :-) Seriously, sometimes it is a little harsh here but his crash was spectacular.
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About 2 years ago I understood he did indeed get remarried I believe to a woman from Ukraine.
When I spoke with him (as this thread happened) he was a decent guy, if not just a bit chaotic and naive. Evidently he does not want to have anything to do with RUA that it is the reason for a lack of updates.
I'm shocked :-) Seriously, sometimes it is a little harsh here but his crash was spectacular.
It really was the benchmark for trainwrecks and it all happened in real time!
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About 2 years ago I understood he did indeed get remarried I believe to a woman from Ukraine.
When I spoke with him (as this thread happened) he was a decent guy, if not just a bit chaotic and naive. Evidently he does not want to have anything to do with RUA that it is the reason for a lack of updates.
I'm shocked :-) Seriously, sometimes it is a little harsh here but his crash was spectacular.
It really was the benchmark for trainwrecks and it all happened in real time!
Yes, it was the mother of all :trainwreck: .
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About 2 years ago I understood he did indeed get remarried I believe to a woman from Ukraine.
When I spoke with him (as this thread happened) he was a decent guy, if not just a bit chaotic and naive. Evidently he does not want to have anything to do with RUA that it is the reason for a lack of updates.
I'm shocked :-) Seriously, sometimes it is a little harsh here but his crash was spectacular.
It really was the benchmark for trainwrecks and it all happened in real time!
Yes, it was the mother of all :trainwreck: .
BRUCE! Are you back? In real time or delayed, doesn't matter.
Welcome back.
Wayne