Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?

[Eduard]

Supranatural,
although there are cultural differences between Russia and Ukraine I don't feel that they are that huge. I can assure you that you can find a similar family in Russia that will accept you as best friend with open arms, invite you to their home every time you are visiting their country, etc. etc. In that way Russians and Ukrainians are very similar.
I will agree that people in Ukraine seem a little more warm and open, but on the other hand I found that many times they don't mean what they say and generally "a word" or a "promise" doesn't mean as much in Ukraine in my experience. Yes it's a generalisation but we are talking generalities here, aren't we?
I like Ukrainian sense of humor and Odessa is famous for producing some of the best FSU comedians (some of the most famous and popular are Jews and not ethnic Ukrainians by the way).

Again I will emphasize that when I talk about Russia or Ukraine I am talking about the place and not a specific ethnic group. I think it is silly and ignorant to attribute a trait of Character to a group that has been mixed with so many other ethnic groups and living alone side with others, mixing with each other, learning from each other and basically sharing the common culture of the PLACE.
I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.
That's just my personal observations based on being from a very mixed ethnic background myself and having family and friends in both Russia and Ukraine, travelling to and staying at both places since my early childhood.

In other words "I'm not prejudice, I am convinced!"

[alenika]

I find it typical that many Russian's don't like Ukranians - hence this thread

I don't find this typical. It's only this forum where there are anti-Ukrainian messages.

On another forum sometimes happen national fights (I remember 2-3 of them during 4 years I am there), more often it is anti-Russian messages by Ukrainians. But generally girls there don't care about each other nationalities - Russians and Ukrainians take part in discussions and support or argue different opinions in spite of their naitonalities.

I am Russian but should admit that have no hard feelings towards Ukrainians. I can notice some differences in general, but I don't see them as something negative. And of course, I wouldn't apply any generalisations to either Ukrainian or Russian I meet and would communicate with them according their personality, not nationality.

[alenika]

I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.

It's very difficult to see difference between materialistic and down-to-earth. Are you sure you see it? Or that every man sees it the same way? Down-to-earth is a positive quality actually.

[msmoby]

For the sake of accuracy:

..one would assume Ed will back that up with a reliable source...

I've heard

THAT'S IT ?!! You've "heard"..

that there is a very large percentage of Ukrainian prostitutes among the prostitutes working in Moscow and other Russian cities, actually I was told that women from Ukraine and Moldova were the majority of the professionals in Moscow. But I don't know first hand so if any one has the exact stats on that would be interesting to find out the real deal.

So this is really an Ed, "opinion", AGAIN and based on "hearsay" ? ...

Again I will emphasize that when I talk about Russia or Ukraine I am talking about the place and not a specific ethnic group.

Then you go on to generalise about "genuineness" and "avarice" of Ukrainians !!


May I remind you for the UMPTEENTH time - so don't try to dodge it.. that Ukraine is a relatively "new" nation - made up of many folk who still think they ARE Russian and who were moved there by a Soviet Government who deliberately mixed up / diluted ethnicities..

MOST of the guys we read of here visit EASTERN Ukraine or the Crimea or Odessa or Kiev.. areas with a MUCH higher or maj . ethnic Russian population.

Ed, your opinions are nearly as baseless ( in fact)  as Mirrors .. AND you contradict yourself...

Let's face it, PLEASE .. there is a LOT of prejudice - most of it unwarranted - and a HECK of a lot of it is current and can be seen when  watching Russian TV..

I wasn't born in Russia / Ukraine.. nor am I a Russian/Ukrainian speaker , but I was frequently in Russia and Ukraine during the run up to the Orange Revolution and I was dating a Russian lady(living in UA ) who was acting head of the largest "independent"  News Agency... owned by a Russian national !

I saw first hand some of the "games" being played out and the Political pressures that were played out..

Sorry, Ed, but to claim Ukrainians are less "genuine"... after watching Russia interfere BIG time in UA politics.. which brought about the OR is just plain silly ...

[Wild Orchid]

I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.

It's very difficult to see difference between materialistic and down-to-earth. Are you sure you see it? Or that every man sees it the same way? Down-to-earth is a positive quality actually.

I can speak only for myself and I saw it plain and clear. For example it was very annoying, when UW told me again and again "her husband is very rich".. I don't care! He is not my husband! Another one was talking about money non-stop, how much she sends to Ukraine to her gown up nephew and how little her husband a pensioner provides for her. I've just met her, and I wasn't interested in her financial situation what so ever, but she was loading me with her money issues up to my eye-balls.  :

[supranatural]

I can speak only for myself and I saw it plain and clear. For example it was very annoying, when UW told me again and again "her husband is very rich".. I don't care! He is not my husband! Another one was talking about money non-stop, how much she sends to Ukraine to her gown up nephew and how little her husband a pensioner provides for her. I've just met her, and I wasn't interested in her financial situation what so ever, but she was loading me with her money issues up to my eye-balls.  :

And interestingly enough since I've been with both RW and UW, when I was with my ex-RW wife her Russian friends were forever sniping at each other, bragging about how much money they had or their husband had.  With my UW friends, I almost never see this.  As I said, one of the friends I have in Kiev, whom I've know for 2 years now, never mentioned how much money his family made until I found out quite by accident one day and saw for myself - they have houses that cost millions but never advertise it to anyone.  My wife's family also has a lot of money but they never advertise it either.

[workedforme]

I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.

It's very difficult to see difference between materialistic and down-to-earth. Are you sure you see it? Or that every man sees it the same way? Down-to-earth is a positive quality actually.

I can speak only for myself and I saw it plain and clear. For example it was very annoying, when UW told me again and again "her husband is very rich".. I don't care! He is not my husband! Another one was talking about money non-stop, how much she sends to Ukraine to her gown up nephew and how little her husband a pensioner provides for her. I've just met her, and I wasn't interested in her financial situation what so ever, but she was loading me with her money issues up to my eye-balls.  :

I guess everyones experiences are different. The worst we have experienced in the bragging,gloating, one upping department has been hands down women from Belarus!

[mirror]

Here we go again.SUPRA jumps from his trousers by trying to prove what doesn't exist.

A subject about Ukr were discussed some time ago and Paul even asked an opinion on a female forum and got an answer what RW think about Ukr girls.

Supra can jump from his trousers again and again ,so what? 

In my opinion or he doesn't know whom he talk about or he is not honest.

[supranatural]

Here we go again.SUPRA jumps from his trousers by trying to prove what doesn't exist.

A subject about Ukr were discussed some time ago and Paul even asked an opinion on a female forum and got an answer what RW think about Ukr girls.

Supra can jump from his trousers again and again ,so what?  

In my opinion or he doesn't know whom he talk about or he is not honest.

Again why don't we stick to facts or things we know instead of speculating and stay ON TOPIC.  I don't care if you think I'm honest or not, unless you have FACTS to state you are simply trying to be underhanded and insulting again.  This thread is not about me, it's about friction between UW and RW.  What does jumping from trousers have to do with anything?  Can you talk about facts without trying to insult someone?

The simple fact is I have successfully debated and disputed several of your statements and you have *NO* answers other than to try to insult me which is what someone does when they've lost an argument.  In what area can you prove I am not honest or don't know what I'm talking about?  Please specify or else again it's you're just stating an opinon based on your irrational prejudice.  You have backed up NOTHING of what I disputed with fact and instead obfuscate and deflect when someone posts anything that disputes your baseless opinons.

[fireeater]

Supranatural

If some facts are needed then how about this one. Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today. Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the prodaters abounding, GCG, as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance. There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others. Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less. Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do. 

Prostitution comes in many forms, where I would have to say the actual one is at least honest, since both sides know actually what they are getting. And how is which country is more friendly, or less materialistic, staying on topic as to why there is friction.   

Now Mirror's level of English is not the same as ours, maybe you should switch to Russian so she has a better chance for those facts you want her to produce.  8)     

[supranatural]

Supranatural

If some facts are needed then how about this one. Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today. Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the prodaters abounding, GCG, as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance. There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others. Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less. Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do.  

Prostitution comes in many forms, where I would have to say the actual one is at least honest, since both sides know actually what they are getting. And how is which country is more friendly, or less materialistic, staying on topic as to why there is friction.  

Now Mirror's level of English is not the same as ours, maybe you should switch to Russian so she has a better chance for those facts you want her to produce.  8)      

As far as mirror's English, why should I switch to Russian?  This is an English based forum and she chooses to participate on it, the onus is on HER to speak English not for me to speak Russian.  Would a Russian speaking forum be expected to speak English for me?  I think not.  Regardless, the fact that she spouts opinions rather than facts is not a function of English versus Russian language, it's purely spouting her prejudices in the matter.  I'm "jumping out of my trousers" ? is not a fact, it's a pure opinion.  saying that I'm "not honest???" is again another opinion and not a fact or personal verifiable experience on her part.

As far as the chances of finding a good partner in UW versus RW, again that is a matter of opinion.  At this time I know just as many successful AM-UW marriages as AM-RW marriages.  Do you have actual numbers, facts and figures to support your contentions which are pretty broad brush strokes?  If not it's speculation and opinion and nothing more.  I've found plenty of GCG in Russia as well as Ukraine.  Neither has a lock on that, nor does either have a lock on prostitution.  I've had marriages from both countries.  I've visited both countries.  Personally I much prefer UW at this time but it's a personal preference based on my experiences.  If you want to present what you say as FACT then you will have to provide supporting evidence other than stating it's "fact", evidence of which I see none in your post.  In my actual experience, I feel I found more marriage minded and potentially good partners during the time I spent in Ukraine than the time I've spent in Russia.  So my personal experience refutes your "facts."

So according to you there are more UW on pay sites than RW.  Can you provide some actual numbers from the agencies, or have you counted them up for all the pay sites out there?  Both times I was in process of looking for someone from the FSU I did not find a huge disparity in numbers.  The first time (in 2001) I found far more RW in my experience and my letter writing campaign supports this.  The second time around, 2 years ago, the numbers were pretty even in my search.  In fact I had more scammer emails from Russia than Ukraine this time around.  Besides, even if it is fact that there are more UW on sites simply means there are more UW on sites.  Unless you can find a real correlation or causation between the two, you are using false logical arguments and cause and effect. 

As far as friction from more UW damaging the process, I don't see that as why there is friction.  Personally I've never heard a RW say "I don't like UW because they make it harder for me to find a foreigner to marry", have you?  So I'd have to disagree with that.

[mirror]

fireeater,

I think you need stay away from this information struggle because looks like it is my destiny to be a nightman to clean from all proukr sh..t ,oh,sorry, advertisements here. 

[fireeater]

Look at it this way for Mirror, it is not hard for an adult to put down child not skilled in debating. The same would apply for some one who's language skills are weak in one language while the other is skilled in it. She would probably win in her own language.  

Yet I see no facts from you, only your own opinion based on your own experiences, the same as the women who say the opposite to you. So where are your FACTS.

As for what I said, everything listed is also been said here in other threads, even by some who have been arguing with the women. A lot of major Ukrainian cities, are listed as poor looking grounds, terms like over fished, women knowing how to play the game for profit, as well as some as major centres for those agencies to make money off this endeavor.

Now a very simple fact, that if you look at high price sites you will find the majority are from that one country. I have tested some of those with just a profile. The majority again are all from the same country, and are designed to fleece you out of you money. One I tested in actual fact, hence the knowledge to know what the others are doing. And yes those ladies working for and agency exist in real life, and they are all not fat Yuri. Even Edward here has confirmed that, as well as one of our female members who was offered a job at one. This is not just my opinion but one confirmed also by other members here in their comments, and advice given to others. If any country would be found on the dubious list it would be Ukrainian at the top of it. The problem with the games here is that is hurts badly the chances for a legitmate women who is serious in being found. Now if women are selling their services to make money off this business what term would you use for this. Seems a form of prostitution to me.        

Now I did not say it does not occur elsewhere, only that it is more prevalent in this country then others,  8)

[Voyager]

If some facts are needed then how about this one.

Yes facts are needed, are any being presented? I'm just seeing "opinions" sometimes paraded as fact.

Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today.

And the basis for this "fact"?  

Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

Lugansk, Ukraine is known as a hotbed for scammers. So is Yoshkar ola, in Russia. There are bad agencies operating everywhere in the FSU.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the pro-daters abounding, GCG,

Again, do you have any basis for this claim?

as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance.

And that has nothing to do with "RW" or "UW", that is just a few crooked guys scamming Western men under the guise of an agency.

There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others.

Again, basis for this statement? How many Ukr. agencies have you used, vs Russian?

And as stated previously, crooked agencies are mainly the work of a few individuals, not the 1000's of UW who have profiles

Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less.

Perhaps. Your point? RW are jealous of UW because many of them have profiles?  

Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do. 

You can get scammed in Kiev, Moscow or Minsk. It doesn't "damaging the process", it just means that the international dating has a somewhat dubious reputation, and savvy searchers will remember "buyer beware"

Now Mirror's level of English is not the same as ours, maybe you should switch to Russian so she has a better chance for those facts you want her to produce.  8)     

Mirror does quite well in English, it seems.

Mirror is welcome to post links to any sites or surveys that support the contention "All UW are prostitutes", or that "the only prostitutes in Moscow are Ukrainians" or any other alleged "fact". You can also post any fact to support your contention.


Again, this is my opinion, there are GCG, GTG, scammers & scam agencies in Russia, Ukraine & Belarus. Use your brain first, take your time to build a relationship, and you won't get burned.


I can respect Wild Orchid's positions, she stated from her experience "UW were more greedy than RW". Fair enough, it's based on her personal observations.

But when people start to throw around statements like "All UW are prostitutes" or "Most prostitutes in Russia are Ukrainian" without any basis for these statements, the poster loses credibility.

[Voyager]

Look at it this way for Mirror, it is not hard for an adult to put down child not skilled in debating. The same would apply for some one who's language skills are weak in one language while the other is skilled in it. She would probably win in her own language.  

Yet I see no facts from you, only your own opinion based on your own experiences, the same as the women who say the opposite to you. So where are your FACTS.

Any links to data in Russian would be just fine too. 

[supranatural]

Look at it this way for Mirror, it is not hard for an adult to put down child not skilled in debating. The same would apply for some one who's language skills are weak in one language while the other is skilled in it. She would probably win in her own language. 

Except in this debate I am not trying to use language skills to out-debate mirror.  I am asking for facts, substantiating evidence.  You don't have to be skillful in English to produce evidence of a factual nature instead of spouting prejudiced opinions.

Yet I see no facts from you, only your own opinion based on your own experiences, the same as the women who say the opposite to you. So where are your FACTS.

Exactly.

As for what I said, everything listed is also been said here in other threads, even by some who have been arguing with the women. A lot of major Ukrainian cities, are listed as poor looking grounds, terms like over fished, women knowing how to play the game for profit, as well as some as major centres for those agencies to make money off this endeavor.

I'm sure that it's been said in other threads but without substantiating evidence these are again opinons.  Granted it may be good opinions based on personal experience, however in my experience I've found scammers in both countries and also cities to avoid in Russia.  That said, I've also found honest decent women in Lugansk which is purported to be a hotbed for scammers.  The truth is if someone thinks with their big head and not their little head they vastly reduce their chances of being scammed and any city can possibly have some great women for someone to meet.  As Voyager said as well, agencies that scam are a few individuals working to scam you, not the entire UW population.

Now a very simple fact, that if you look at high price sites you will find the majority are from that one country. I have tested some of those with just a profile. The majority again are all from the same country, and are designed to fleece you out of you money. One I tested in actual fact, hence the knowledge to know what the others are doing. And yes those ladies working for and agency exist in real life, and they are all not fat Yuri. Even Edward here has confirmed that, as well as one of our female members who was offered a job at one. This is not just my opinion but one confirmed also by other members here in their comments, and advice given to others. If any country would be found on the dubious list it would be Ukrainian at the top of it. The problem with the games here is that is hurts badly the chances for a legitmate women who is serious in being found. Now if women are selling their services to make money off this business what term would you use for this. Seems a form of prostitution to me.         

But it's NOT prostitution.  I can respect you feeling it's a form of prostitution, but when we say prostitution can we agree that 99.99% of the general population has the same definition - that of a woman who sells strictly sex for money in a straightfoward manner and that this is what mirror means when she labels UW as prostitutes?  And that if we want to say that it's a form of prostitution, shouldn't it be said that in a sense most people prostitute themselves for money by not working for the purity of what they do but rather for a paycheck?  Can you see that by saying this is a form of prostitution we start walking a slippery slope?

But going back to the original statement by mirror that "UW are prostitutes" I think we can all agree that this is certainly not true.  I know plenty of women from UW and I KNOW for a fact that my wife, her two sisters in law, her niece and her mom have never been prostitutes nor are they now. 

Now I did not say it does not occur elsewhere, only that it is more prevalent in this country then others,  8)

[AkMike]

Supernatural;
 You're welcome to use my sig line from an earlier discussion of this topic!!!

It's not worth the effort to try to reason with her. 8)

[Voyager]

Supernatural;
 You're welcome to use my sig line from an earlier discussion of this topic!!!

It's not worth the effort to try to reason with her. 8)

Indeed, it's unlikely that anyone will change their mind from reading this topic, but we decided to allow this thread to have some airing of the reasons behind these national biases. (if there are any reasons)

We think that it may help the beginner to understand that some prejudices do exist in the FSU, so that the WM won't be surprised when they run across these attitudes

[msmoby]

If some facts are needed then how about this one. Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today. Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the prodaters abounding, GCG, as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance. There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others. Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less. Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do. 

Dear Fireeater

Did anyone stop to think that WM get what we deserve in some parts of UA?

I expect the results would be the same in Russia - if there was Visa free travel..

 Lugansk is a VERY "Russian" city in Ukraine... it sits on the border..and is made up of "Russians".. so what conclusion should we draw... "don't trust Ukrainian Russians !!" ?!! 

Russia has had it's centres of scammers, too ( Yoshkar-Ola ?)

When I hear RW knocking UW re dating.. I am in total bewilderment.. as most of the scams are more likely to originate from ethnic Russian speaking areas... NOT "true Ukrainian" speaking regions !!...

YES, there are more UA women listed - proportionately - proportionately more WM go to UA...!!

I'm CERTAIN that if my wife had lived further west / in UA she would have had loads of visits..


SO many guys offered to come to Krasnoyarsk ( Central Siberia) then realised HOW far it was, and the logistics, and then asked her to come to Moscow .... I was the first WM she'd met.. the ONLY one who bothered !! ))))

UW have had FAR more experience of WM... and NOT always good...   Even though my wife is Russian, I think saying " Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today" says more about WM "spoiling things" rather than UW....

[fireeater]

Yoyager

You will have to wait till I have acess to my fact sheet, I do not carry it around. 

But on a quick check on line. One site has 2232 russian women, 9659 Ukraiian women. Total for the site is 13447 so the difference is other countries.
On line waiting to rope you into a chat room at present time 3 Russian women, 278 Ukraiian women. None from any other at the present time. Since the ecomony went upside down this particular area for chatting has tripled for the number being on it during sleeping hours at home. Seems more need the money produced by it now.   

Mosby

If you have never tested a high priced site you have no idea of what you are talking about. I have and confirmed for myself what occurs and where. Others I have tested as well with the same conditions applying but never all the way. just a profile. It is a great way to determine if the site is legit or not. But for the one tested all the way, also included two fake profiles as that confirmation, and I was able to read all three profiles for letters coming in. Yet only had the ability to respond in one profile in any depth. It is truely a "business" for that country, and it does occur in others as well. Just more in this one then in others. It is quite educational if you do this, but one should never attempt it on a serious side. Once I get my list I can be more specific, and accurate.     

[msmoby]

Hi Fi-beater !;)



>>If you have never tested a high priced site you have no idea of what you are talking about.<<

And as I HAVE ?!! I was STUupid in my early days, FE.. I searched a LONG time..  I have been a member of just about EVERY site that was around .. So, now that we have established my "dubious cred" to comment.. *I* think I can speak with some "authority", matey !! ..

As you know I've been able to travel  travelled widely in UA and RU, too.

Now, would you mind responding to my points?

[Manny]

It is usually Ukrainian that has the pro-daters abounding, GCG,

Again, do you have any basis for this claim?

I do.

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.

Read the GCG stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the DV in the US stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the "Wife split" type topics: Mostly Ukraine.

For sure, there are many fabulous women in Ukraine. Many of our members are married to them. I know all about the cultural similarities with Russians etc. But it does seem that most "hard luck" stories come from guys involved with women from Ukraine.

When did we last read about a green card girl from Russia? From Moldova? From Lithuania? From Kaliningrad?

[msmoby]

Hi Manny

good points, but proportionately far more WM visit UA than RU..  Are you SERIOUSLY going to suggest Lugansk ladies are SO culturally different from RW.. it is less than 10 miles from Russia, and the border is less than 20yrs old

Come on.. it's all about "ease" of travel to UA over RU

[shakespear]

Come on.. it's all about "ease" of travel to UA over RU

I would agree that is part of the reason.

I think the more important reason is that Ukraine is much more economically depressed that Russia.  Therefore many more ladies are willing to exchange their looks and intelligence to a man old enough to be their father for a chance at escape from their financial hopelessness with no foreseeable end to the plight.

It's much more about escape than it is ease of travel.  But the two do seem to compliment each other. 

[Manny]

Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman? 

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?