Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?

[Halo]

Who are the real traitors?  Those who supported the Bolsheviks, the most brutal, backward regime of the twentieth century.  Even the Nazis took lessons from them.  I cannot consider anyone who opposed them a traitor.

Traitors -who betrays neighbours.

If you try to talk about collectivisation and Prodrasverstka then you should know that in a time of a hunger Soviet government tried to share all bread between all people .Too many people were living in towns not only in agrycultural villages so of course they should get a small piece of bread from kolhozniki.

There was no hunger in 1932/1933.  Every shred of evidence, including Soviet archives and the accounts of those who survived, proves this was an orchestrated famine.
No bread was shared.  People were intentionally starved to death.

It is non of your business...it was not an internet dating like you want to say.

Yet again an erroneous assumpton on your part.  Though I have never done it personally, I don't think internet dating is a crime.  I merely pointed out that, notwithstanding all your nationalist posts, even your own family has fled Russia.

[mirror]

There was no hunger in 1931/1932.  Every shred of evidence, including Soviet archives and the accounts of those who survived, proves this was an orchestrated famine.
No bread was shared.  People were intentionally starved to death.

It is how you want to show a history. I am glad for you that all Westerns collect the humanitarian help  because you were "a victim" those time.  

Can I send you 1 fish presevation,pls?

[mirror]

Everything what you write is known already from Ukr nationalists ,nothing new really.
I can say more that Westerns swallow this false already like the truth.

[Halo]

There was no hunger in 1931/1932.  Every shred of evidence, including Soviet archives and the accounts of those who survived, proves this was an orchestrated famine.
No bread was shared.  People were intentionally starved to death.

It is how you want to show a history. I am glad for you that all Westerns collect the humanitarian help  because you were "a victim" those time.  

Can I send you 1 fish presevation,pls?

It is not how history is "shown".  Stalin himself admitted to Churchill that millions died because of forced collectivization.  Soviet archives are very clear on this.  The fact you ignore historical reality is irrelevant.

Your ignorance of history is appalling but then, as a limited sovok, you are not really capable of analytic thought.  So, go back and read the latest revisionist history from Moscow about what a great leader Stalin was.  Go ahead, ignore how Stalin allowed Beria to pick up women, and even girls as young as 10, off the streets of Moscow to be raped, how he had 2 million Russians put to death because of his paranoia, how he ignored Sorge's warnings and was completely surprised by Operation Barbarossa, how he sat stupified in the Kremlin, while advisors worked around him during WWII and developed a nationalist strategy to fight the war, etc.  

[anjutka]

Halo...looks like you are in the wrong forum 

[Halo]

Everything what you write is known already from Ukr nationalists ,nothing new really.
I can say more that Westerns swallow this false already like the truth.

The "Ukrainian nationalist" who first studied the Ukrainian famine was Robert Conquest.  He is English, a distinguished professor of history at Stanford and later a fellow at the Hoover Institute.   The second most prominent scholar of the Ukrainian famine is the late James Mace.  He is an American Cherokee, who worked with Dr. Conquest, then studied the famine while working at Harvard.  He was opposed in his attempts to create a Kiev based institute for study of the famine by Ukrainians.

Yup, certainly, these "Ukrainian nationalists" fabricated everything.

[Halo]

Halo...looks like you are in the wrong forum  

?  

I am creating additional friction, per the header in this thread, am I not?

On a serious note, I do not distinguish between Ukrainians and Russians.  I do distinguish between those who actively supported oppression and those who were its victims.

The most ardent nationalists, be they Russian or Ukrainian, in my experience, were snitches, who were always trying to get ahead on the backs of the innocent, before the collapse of the FSU.  They don't like to be reminded of this today.

[mirror]

An interent resources are unlimited so everybody can find their whatever he/she wants.
Do you identify Stalin and Russians? Let me hope No.

[Halo]

An interent resources are unlimited so everybody can find their whatever he/she wants.
Do you identify Stalin and Russians? Let me hope No.

I am quoting serious scholars, not some yahoo with a keyboard.  I have also read many of the archival documents and spoken to those who survived.  So my experience, unlike yours, is not restricted to the internet and what revisionists want me to believe.  You posts indicate, mirror, that you are not, I believe, capable of true independent analytic thought. 

Anyone with a passing familiarity with Soviet history knows Stalin was Georgian.  However, real Georgians say Stalin was not Georgian, as "real Georgians" have surnames ending in "dze".  

[mirror]

On a serious note, I do not distinguish between Ukrainians and Russians.  I do distinguish between those who actively supported oppression and those who were its victims.

It is really funny to see how Ukr tell everywhere about being victims from Russians and then they say that they supporting victims (themselves).  

[Halo]

On a serious note, I do not distinguish between Ukrainians and Russians.  I do distinguish between those who actively supported oppression and those who were its victims.

It is really funny to see how Ukr tell everywhere about being victims from Russians and then they say that they supporting victims (themselves).  

When did I ever state Ukrainians were the victims of Russians?  I made it was clear they were victims of Soviets.  Or perhaps, more accurately, Bolsheviks.

Now as a good little sovok, I know you have now turned into a raging nationalist (you are no different than all those Ukrainian nationalists you so despise - LOL), but really, you need to learn to read what is written, rather than what you assume is written.

[mirror]

I am quoting serious scholars, not some yahoo with a keyboard.  I have also read many of the archival documents and spoken to those who survived.  So my experience is not restricted.

Anyone with a passing familiarity with Soviet history knows Stalin was Georgian.  However, real Georgians say Stalin was not Georgian, as "real Georgians" have surnames ending in "dze". 

I don't believe my eyes. Stalin-Djugashvilli was not Georgian?  I have one friend-Georgian man from Gory who knows a house where Stalin was born.

[Halo]

Again, mirror, you did not read what I posted.  I posted that Georgians say Stalin did not have an ethnic Georgian surname.  I never posted he was not Georgian.  Just noting what Georgians have stated.

[mirror]

Now as a good little sovok, I know you have now turned into a raging nationalist (you are no different than all those Ukrainian nationalists you so despise - LOL), but really, you need to learn to read what is written, rather than what you assume is written.

You can name me whatever you want it doesn't bother me.  

Of course I understand you naming me "a nationalist",in your opinion everybody should take your point of view. But sorry,it didn't happen.

[mirror]

Again, mirror, you did not read what I posted.  I posted that Georgians say Stalin did not have an ethnic Georgian surname.  I never posted he was not Georgian.  Just noting what Georgians have stated.

I don't take this trick to tell something from 3th faces "one babuska said".
Georgians could not say that because there -shvilly and -dge are Georgians.

[Halo]

Now as a good little sovok, I know you have now turned into a raging nationalist (you are no different than all those Ukrainian nationalists you so despise - LOL), but really, you need to learn to read what is written, rather than what you assume is written.

You can name me whatever you want it doesn't bother me.  

Of course I understand you naming me "a nationalist",in your opinion everybody should take your point of view. But sorry,it didn't happen.

No, I don't expect everyone to take my point of view.  But I do expect people not to ignore historical fact.  There is ample evidence the 1932/33 famine in Ukraine was orchestrated.  There is ample evidence grain was confiscated, and peasants were starved to death, because they resisted collectivization.  Those are historical facts, no matter how you want to spin them.

What can be debated is whether this was a genocide; That is, whether Ukrainians were specifically targeted because they were Ukrainian, rather than because they were peasants.  My own leaning is the latter, but there are those who argue the former.

[Halo]

Again, mirror, you did not read what I posted.  I posted that Georgians say Stalin did not have an ethnic Georgian surname.  I never posted he was not Georgian.  Just noting what Georgians have stated.

I don't take this trick to tell something from 3th faces "one babuska said".
Georgians could not say that because there -shvilly and -dge are Georgians.

No, many Georgians state "shvilli" is not a true Georgian surname.  That is all I was saying.

There are plenty of Russians today with a surname ending in "ko", who swear up and down they are Russians, but this is not a Russian surname.

[mirror]

No, I don't expect everyone to take my point of view.  But I do expect people not to ignore historical fact.  There is ample evidence the 1932/33 famine in Ukraine was orchestrated.  There is ample evidence grain was confiscated, and peasants were starved to death, because they resisted collectivization.  Those are historical facts, no matter how you want to spin them.

What can be debated is whether this was a genocide; That is, whether Ukrainians were specifically targeted because they were Ukrainian, rather than because they were peasants.  My own leaning is the latter, but there are those who argue the former.

I know from my grandparents that 1922-25 years were a hunger time and plus a collectivisation.people were even eating each other and it happened not only in Ukr like you want to show it.So it was not a genocide. In South Volga area people died even more than in Ukr.

[mirror]

No, many Georgians state "shvilli" is not a true Georgian surname.  That is all I was saying.

There are plenty of Russians today with a surname ending in "ko", who swear up and down they are Russians, but this is not a Russian surname.

You make two mistakes. One-"shvilli" is a real Georgian suffix and second - surnames with an end "Ko" can be Russian and Ukr also.

[Halo]

No, I don't expect everyone to take my point of view.  But I do expect people not to ignore historical fact.  There is ample evidence the 1932/33 famine in Ukraine was orchestrated.  There is ample evidence grain was confiscated, and peasants were starved to death, because they resisted collectivization.  Those are historical facts, no matter how you want to spin them.

What can be debated is whether this was a genocide; That is, whether Ukrainians were specifically targeted because they were Ukrainian, rather than because they were peasants.  My own leaning is the latter, but there are those who argue the former.

I know from my grandparents that 1922-25 years were a hunger time and plus a collectivisation.people were even eating each other and it happened not only in Ukr like you want to show it.So it was not a genocide. In South Volga area people died even more than in Ukr.

The famines in 1921/23 were not orchestrated.  That is the difference.

You should read the demographics of the Volga.  That region was heavily populated by Ukrianians.

Nevertheless, I already noted Russian and Kazakh peasants, among others, were also victims of collectivization.  So, you are not posting anything new.

[Halo]

No, many Georgians state "shvilli" is not a true Georgian surname.  That is all I was saying.

There are plenty of Russians today with a surname ending in "ko", who swear up and down they are Russians, but this is not a Russian surname.

You make two mistakes. One-"shvilli" is a real Georgian suffix and second - surnames with an end "Ko" can be Russian and Ukr also.

A century, ago, no ethnic Russian had a surname ending in "ko".   Before the Revolution, Ukrainians who moved to Russia changed their surnames to "kov" so their children would not be mocked in schools.

Really, mirror, you need to read some history . . .

[msmoby]

The famine in 1921 was not a forced famine.  It was based on a number of factors, including a drought, lack of railways the after effects of WWI, etc.  

NOT according to :

http://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/country.asp?country=37 and a Ukrainian ( but ethnic Russian journo) I know..

Stalin was not the architect of collectivization.  That honour goes to Trotsky.  But, the "famine" that followed was indeed communist imposed.  Local communists, half of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, supported collectivization, and were predominantly the ones who physically carried it out.

..and WHO was the "top man" - who would have approved the plan !?
Did the "local ethnic Ukrainian Communists" also dream up the mass movement of indigenous peoples from Ukraine to "less clement" regions of Russia? ..

[mirror]

I say about all natiolaties who were saffering from a hunger and it is a difference from what you say.You try to show that only Ukr like victims and I say that all nationalities were victims from a hunger those time:Tatars,Russians,Germans,Kazakhs...

[Halo]

The famine in 1921 was not a forced famine.  It was based on a number of factors, including a drought, lack of railways the after effects of WWI, etc.  

NOT according to :

http://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/country.asp?country=37 and a Ukrainian ( but ethnic Russian journo) I know..

Stalin was not the architect of collectivization.  That honour goes to Trotsky.  But, the "famine" that followed was indeed communist imposed.  Local communists, half of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, supported collectivization, and were predominantly the ones who physically carried it out.

..and WHO was the "top man" - who would have approved the plan !?
Did the "local ethnic Ukrainian Communists" also dream up the mass movement of indigenous peoples from Ukraine to "less clement" regions of Russia? ..

There was a major drought in Russia, and a lesser one in Ukraine at that time.  Most of the deaths, which were significant in both republics, were attributable not to collectivization (which occurred a few years later), but rather, to the drought (to a lesser extent) and more signficantly, to inferior transportation.

My point was, there was no forced collectivization in Ukraine in 1921/22.  See here -

http://www.encyclopediaof*Unapproved Link*/pages/F/A/Famine.htm

As for your comment on Stalin, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Collectivization was Trotsky's idea.  Stalin was party leader by 1932, but it was Kaganovich who was responsible for implementing the policy in Ukraine.  And yes, Ukrainian communists were the party cadres who actually went to villages and confiscated grain and all food.

My point was that this can't be blamed solely on Stalin, nor on Russian communists.  Much as Ukrainian nationalists would like to have everyone believe no one in Ukraine was responsible, this is not accurate. 

[Halo]

I say about all natiolaties who were saffering from a hunger and it is a difference from what you say.You try to show that only Ukr like victims and I say that all nationalities were victims from a hunger those time:Tatars,Russians,Germans,Kazakhs...

I have never posted that.  I have stated Ukrainians suffered disproportionately.   Where the dispute arises among historians (and nationalists) is as to whether they suffered disproportionately because they were Ukrainian, or because more Ukrainians were peasants.

There is a difference and no matter how many times you assert otherwise, it won't change what I have posted.