For better or worse, in my case worse

[downhearted]

Hi Bob and Jeffrey,
When it comes to Andrewfi and Tom I don’t pay attention to either of their comments any more. Both have demonstrated that all they want to do is kick me when I am down. It’s plain to see they misunderstood what was written. They are the sort of people who always see the woman as the victim and the man to blame. Considering both of them have been through a similar situation by their own admission and both failed miserably trying to resolve it I am astounded at their lack of empathy. They seem to have all the answers but not a clue between them. As for Andrewfi calling me an idiot I find this ironic as he seens to be half of this topics answer to Dumb and Dumber.

Voyager was right about Anjutka. Of all the posts and posters on this issue she seems to be the most astute in her analysis. It pretty much mirrors a lot of comments my own mother made after her recent visit.

Now Alenika, just some facts for you. First off the wife speaks excellent English and did when she arrived. Much better than all the WM-RW couples we have met along the way. Adjusting to English was a lot easier for her than others.

Also Alenika, would you like to read the story again and read about everything I did to help her adjust in the first 2 years? I did a hell of a lot and I resent the fact that someone like you says differently. If you bothered to read the story in its entirety you will see after 2 years she had an excellent network most immigrants would be more than happy with. However after she got permanent residence she started to dismantle her network to a point where now she only has myself and her mum. She has also tried the same with me, trying to isolate me from family and friends. 

As for the depression, yes, I have reservations as to whether she did seek treatment or was even depressed to begin with. Why? Her behaviour leading up to it was anything but the behaviour of someone depressed. I have seen her depressed and her behaviour then compared to her behaviour leading up to her recent departure were complete polar opposites. The message about treatment was simply a way to avoid dealing with the issues at the time and also to try and elicit some sympathy. Given her lies leading up to that event and her lies subsequently I have reservations. I am with Bob in his thinking on this.

As for how things are going, the stand-off approach is starting to make headways. Fancy that, a method different from Andrew and Tom’s failed methods making progress. She is seeing a new side in me. A no nonsense, take no shit side. She tried to slip into some bad old habits this week but I put a stop to it straight away. Yesterday she finally verbally apologised for her behaviour leading up to her departure and this is something I have wanted to hear from her since her arrival.

[Brasscasing]

She tried to slip into some bad old habits this week but I put a stop to it straight away.

Yeah? How'd you accomplish that?

Yesterday she finally verbally apologised for her behaviour leading up to her departure and this is something I have wanted to hear from her since her arrival.

No kidding, waiting to hear those apologies for past transgressions is just so important, isn't it? Forgiveness is just no fun unless she's made to seek it so you can display your magnanimity - generosity of the victor towards the defeated.

Brass

[ECR844]

What strikes me as interesting is that no where in "Down hearted's" musings and explanations has there been a sense or mention of joint effort and or a 'team' mentality,' that should be an integral part of the marriage and their situation.

[Jaime70068]

WTG DH, make sure you maintain a consistency in your behavior as well. That will build a strong foundation of respect that you felt was lacking in your relationship with your wife.

[Voyager]

It seems that the status quo is unacceptable to him.

They are going for counselling which is good, and the fact that she realizes that her actions are at least partly to blame show some promise.

It sounds like DH is also willing to work at this, so hopefully some progress is possible.

If she refused to admit any fault in the breakdown then things would be more difficult.

[Zon]

1st off what  proof is there that she did seek help ,for mine the only thing depressing for her is that she lost her hold on him.

Try to move to other country for long enough time, while relying only on someone else for all your choices and actions, without knowing their language or knowing it little, with no connection but one person who only does some material action but is not able to listen. People are different - some don't notice the change, others - are depressed. You are lucky that your wife didn't have it, but this doesn't mean that if woman is depressed because of move then she is bad or guilty. She is weak, btw women are supposed to be emotionally weak. This means they are feminine. They also cry sometimes. Not all are capable to do all right all the time.

you are right Alenika. It's stressful for a RW to come to another country, where she doesn't know anything or any one, doesn't understand the language, the culture is foreign and for the first year or two while she is just learning the language she can't even express herself to her husband and share her feelings and emotions with him. It's a very tough period for them and a man needs to be very understanding and supportive. A RW will love and respect such man. If he treats her as he would treat a woman from his own country, not realising the huge change she is going through he'll make it even harder on her.
Just think of transplanting a tree. Trees go through shock and stress period so strong that sometimes they even die when you transplant them. People are not that different...

It is clear that many members have experience - real experience - and are able to communicate well.  I have often wondered about the harsh adjustments that this transition would create - well said.

[Ponce De León]

This is an amazing story and gives us all much to think about.  I can see both sides of the story, but I wonder if the guy that started this story can?

[Ponce De León]

But this story is a sad one and one that should serve as a waring to all.  Choose wisely, and guard your marriage.

[downhearted]

Yeah? How'd you accomplish that?

Brasscasting, I let her know that what she was trying to do was one of the points I bought up in the letter that she said she was going to change. I told her I wasn’t going to accept that behaviour any more and if our marriage is to have any future things cannot slip back to how they were. She saw in my demeanour I was not kidding and was not going to back down. One of my big problems is I have been way too soft and let her run amok dictating things. Although it is something not really in my character, if the marriage is to survive I need to be a hell of a lot more assertive than I have been. 

No kidding, waiting to hear those apologies for past transgressions is just so important, isn't it? Forgiveness is just no fun unless she's made to seek it so you can display your magnanimity - generosity of the victor towards the defeated.

Its got nothing to do with magnanimity. Its not something I laud over her or plan to. Acknowledgment that she played a major part in bringing our marriage to the state it is in now is part of the healing process. Like it or not it is important to me to hear the apology and shows she is taking some responsibility for her actions.

[Eduard]

I think it's unfair to judge and give advice based on hearing only one side's version of what went on. I'm not at all questioning original poster's story or the fact that he believes that he accurately told the story of what happened. But I have to note that having been in long term relationships all my life since age 20 (other than a couple of years of being single) I've learned a lot about women and that their perception of things and thought process can be drastically different from ours! I've had big arguments with my women in the course of relationship where I thought for sure that I was completely right, she was so wrong... Funny thing is that when things calm down and we were able to talk and discuss what happened my woman would explain to me how she saw things, her way of thinking and her reasoning behind her actions. And you know what? 9 out of 10 times I could see that she had a valid rational for doing what she did or behaved the way she behaved.
We've got to understand that women think and perceive things differently from us and in many situations there is no "right" or "wrong" - just a different point of view.
When a marriage involves WM+RW this confusion is multiplied even more by the language and cultural differences.
Most likely an American man will not have the same response to an action or words by a RW that she expects from a Russian man. So not only this becomes Mars versus Venus but rather more complicated - Marsian America versus Venerian Russia issue!

I think that the only reasonable advice in this situation would be: try to put all your hurt feelings aside and try to talk, communicate with each other in a nice, respectful way. Getting professional counseling would also be great IMO.
Sorry if this rubs any one the wrong way, but this is my honest opinion for what it's worth.
Ed

[TomT]

Andrew,

It's a pity that DH didn't arrive sooner; with his splendid relationship advice, we might have been spared some rather spectacular failures.  

[andrewfi]

DH, all you gots ta do is understand that your future together is not one where you are right and she is wrong - -but you are still trying to impose your will. Her 'surrender' by acce[tance of your viewpoint will kill whatver you had and shw ill be a slave until she exacts her punishment.

The thing is that you BOTH are right. You see the same issue in two different ways. Problem is that until you can understand her perspective you simply can not make a joint move forward. I KNOW that many guys find this, very easy, stuff hard and that is why I used the metaphor of the marketplace negotiation.
I would not mind betting that your wife already has a fair fix on your posiition, she has told you so already but you chose to discount what she said.

OK, I understand DH that it is your plan to ruin that which was emminently salvigable but I trust that others here look and THINK and understand that you truly cant get from one place to another in your lives together without recognition of the validity of your partner's perspective.

[bobjf]

i had no intentsion of re entering this topic but you clowns are to much.
no 1 according to you guys engages there thought process because we dare to think differently to you.
get a clue,you both for all your procrastination are only guessing as to what went on, relationships very often do not follow a logical path, just the  same in lifes  journy, it is human nature to be different .
thing like this do happen unfortunately & you guys have no idea as to whether she is who you think or if she is exactly as dh says.
both of you get off on slagging other people not just dh but other members here aswell.
a pair of egotistical head cases who to coin an old aussie saying ,have roo's loose in the top paddick.
 you could both do with a dose empathy & to quote andrew ,think before you post.
being rude & obnoxious only stirs people up.
easy being keyboard heros isn't it,seriously doubt you have the balls to answer like that in person.

[andrewfi]

Bob, I have LIVED this situation, OK.
I have walked the walk. I KNOW of what I write. I am sharing what I learnt.
Come back when you have learnt to think and been able to understand how one thing leads to another.

Bob, your opinion is yours to hold but unless you can show me how you arrived at that opinion - the thought process behind it - then I need have no respect for it, I HAVE shown you how my perspective works, the thought process that takes you from one place to another. Argue with me, show me where my thinking and understanding are wrong based upon the information at hand.
I understand that most men do not think, they use emotion and gut feeling and call it thought. You are, I am sure an average bloke and do as average folks do. Our hero is acting like an average man. His wife is also likely average, this situation needs better than 'average'.

[bobjf]

Bob, I have LIVED this situation, OK.
I have walked the walk. I KNOW of what I write. I am sharing what I learnt.
Come back when you have learnt to think and been able to understand how one thing leads to another.

Bob, your opinion is yours to hold but unless you can show me how you arrived at that opinion - the thought process behind it - then I need have no respect for it, I HAVE shown you how my perspective works, the thought process that takes you from one place to another. Argue with me, show me where my thinking and understanding are wrong based upon the information at hand.
I understand that most men do not think, they use emotion and gut feeling and call it thought. You are, I am sure an average bloke and do as average folks do. Our hero is acting like an average man. His wife is also likely average, this situation needs better than 'average'.

so do you have some delusion your robinson caruso,think your the only person who has lived through something of this nature ,lose the ego sunshine.
i'v often stated an opinion belongs only to the person who gave it,yours has no more value than mine or anyone else's.
argueing with someone who is guessing at best is a waste of time,allsame your assessment of who is average.
i & others  choseing  to dissagree with you makes us thoughtless average blokes who work only from gut feelings & emotions . to the great 1, NOT
highly likely my thoughts have been around longer than yours but unlike you i have learn't there is no set reality,not everything falls into a pattern or procedes in a logical way,learning is a process that never stops for people smart enough to recognise they only know part of what is going on.
to accuse others of this or that without any tangable proof only belittles yourself.
by all means offer an opinion but without being obnoxious or spruiking you know it all,
who the hell are you to second guess anyone with no tangable proof other than what you deduce from reading between the lines.
something for you to think about.

[bobjf]

Try to move to other country for long enough time, while relying only on someone else for all your choices and actions, without knowing their language or knowing it little, with no connection but one person who only does some material action but is not able to listen. People are different - some don't notice the change, others - are depressed. You are lucky that your wife didn't have it, but this doesn't mean that if woman is depressed because of move then she is bad or guilty. She is weak, btw women are supposed to be emotionally weak. This means they are feminine. They also cry sometimes. Not all are capable to do all right all the time.[/color]
[/quote]

sorry alenika but you are wrong about my wife & i do fully understand what its like to move to a country without friends,different culture & a language that is not yours most likly far better than you do.
my wife did not find it easy at all but we managed to work through it all to get where we are today.
today her english is very good ( she had virtually no english when we met)  & she has adapted well to life here.
she is now a full citizen & proud of it
i hope the same for you when you move to your guy.
for the record my wife has a totaly different opinion to you on dh's problem so does that make her right & you wrong or the other way around.
no answer to that because none of us  have anyway of knowing what is fact ,only opinions & guessing
goes for all posters here except dh

[Stigmata]

Thanks guys.

Orthodox priests seem not to be the best outlet for marital problems,,, too much room for personal conflict.

Beware; these guys are not bound by rules of catholic chastity, they can have sex, whenever and whereever they wish.      

huh??

Youve been watching too many Rasputin movies buddy!

[Markje]

Youve been watching too many Rasputin movies buddy!

since we have a member who personally had that happen to him (the priest hitting on his wife) it is surely no joke.

See the trainwreck room for more info.

[Stigmata]

Youve been watching too many Rasputin movies buddy!

since we have a member who personally had that happen to him (the priest hitting on his wife) it is surely no joke.

See the trainwreck room for more info.

but then there are Catholic priests touching up kids.
Or Rabbis doing the same.
Evangelist preaches  getting dressed up as women and having homosexual relations.

Does that mean each Catholic priest , rabbi, Evangelists preacher is under suspicion?

People have got to get a grip.......


amazing.....

There are 7 billion people on this planet... stuff happens....

[Stigmata]

Oh and by the way... im 100% sure i can bring you examples of psychologists ... marriage counsellor.. judges.. policemen...teachers....  that have overstepped the line also.

[jeffreysearch]

Well i have to say- we have certainly hijacked DH`s Post here, i think we should listen to his words more As he is after some `Good advice and support, and not inter- forum Debates. I think DH has already admitted that Andrew has not offered any decent advice for him ( and i have to admit- he is way of course with his views and opinions, so maybe should offer his thoughts to someone else on the forum who wants to listen!) so i think we should step back and be more constructive about it all? otherwise it is all of no use at all, and only denigrates this forum

I think Eduard said it the best ! it is a difficult thing, especially if you have a  RW who is not willing to making her best effort to respect that a man from another country who has decided to go through the Huge Financial and Emotional procedure of being married to a RW, and she decided to make a `Married life with him as well, Which is what i think DH is trying to express ( and what Bob has been trying to say as well . She is Half of this Marriage and decided it as well, instead of a Russian man. As i said, some FSU women have Dreams that are far from reality, and it is common. But we certainly dont want to marry a RW who behaves like DH has extensively described in his early post. No Man deserves that, ever if she is a Uber- Babe ! 

I prefer to not continue my debate, but only to be contructive to DH and his issues, and his help, i hope some of you will do the same

[Stigmata]

I think that if you are a man and youre looking at importing a wife from overseas... you have to expect that there is a massive chance the marriage might go belly up.
Just because youve gone to a foreign country and spent money doesnt mean that there are not massive risks with a wide range of factors that might explode.
It isnt an easy thing for someone to just pack up leaving their family and friends behind as well as their comfort zone to go live elsewhere.
A Hollywood production on television is not always the reality of what she will find wherever it is she is going.

She might realise she doesnt wish to leave a whole host of things she loves behind.... and what she has left behind far outweighs what she finds.

There are no guarantees in life and there are of course no money back guarantees if this is tghe course you decide to take.

Its a risk.. and like all risks its can pay massive rewards or you can lose....

[Manny]

Really, that is a new topic Stig surely?

[Brasscasing]

Try to move to other country for long enough time, while relying only on someone else for all your choices and actions, without knowing their language or knowing it little, with no connection but one person who only does some material action but is not able to listen. People are different - some don't notice the change, others - are depressed. You are lucky that your wife didn't have it, but this doesn't mean that if woman is depressed because of move then she is bad or guilty. She is weak, btw women are supposed to be emotionally weak. This means they are feminine. They also cry sometimes. Not all are capable to do all right all the time.[/color]

sorry alenika but you are wrong about my wife & i do fully understand what its like to move to a country without friends,different culture & a language that is not yours most likly far better than you do.
my wife did not find it easy at all but we managed to work through it all to get where we are today.
today her english is very good ( she had virtually no english when we met)  & she has adapted well to life here.
she is now a full citizen & proud of it
i hope the same for you when you move to your guy.
for the record my wife has a totaly different opinion to you on dh's problem so does that make her right & you wrong or the other way around.
no answer to that because none of us  have anyway of knowing what is fact ,only opinions & guessing
goes for all posters here except dh

Uh Bob, how is Alenika wrong here, then? You're agreeing with what she's posted.

You're right about the just guessing though, only someone with intimate knowledge of Downhearted's situation would know the real circumstances. However, based solely on what he's posted, Andrew, Tom, Alenika and others are not wrong in their observations.
From here it looks to me that some people are being shouted down because they don't agree with circling the wagons around this guy.

Brass

[Stigmata]

Really, that is a new topic Stig surely?

Manny, i see how it all ties in.

Alot of things tie into something so complex.

Thats why nothing about this topic is black or white .

So we all talk about a host of different things...and theories etc.

I think that everybody is as different as their own DNA... so these threads can be discussed in all kinds of ways and we could all be still wrong...

Life and the entire worlds experiences of life are  openended