For better or worse, in my case worse

[jb]

Patience obviously ran out, (ask jb about patience).  

jb doesn't have a dog in this fight.  As mentioned upthread, we don't know the whole story and I certainly don't want to rough you up here.  However, 3 years seems more than enough for her to adjust to her new surroundings.

All marriages go through some rough patches, financial rough spots tend to be the worst.  But if you or she find yourself brooding about some hurt feelings for more than a day, rather than seeking a common ground to discuss issues, the situation is probably more dire than you realize.  I'd worry more about her not wanting to talk or text msg for 12 days than you seem to be.  For a wife (even the most stubborn and pig headed RW), to sever all communications for that long, I'd say offhand she's probably made some decisions to cut her losses.  I'd suggest you prepare for the worst case scenario.

Just my take on the story as told by you.

[Barbie]

1. Downhearted, are you orthodox?
It is very strange.......If your Russian wife very orthodox and very religious  If......... How this Russian orthodox family  allowed to marry  with the Catholic or the Protestant? For her it should be important only the orthodox husband.
2. Why she does not work always? If she works- she will not have time for sadness. She sits on your neck all life?  I have correctly understood? ???She knows, about problems with money and does not work and travel in the Russia?!!!
Sorry for my English

[Eduard]

1. Downhearted, are you orthodox?
It is very strange.......If your Russian wife very orthodox and very religious  If......... How this Russian orthodox family  allowed to marry  with the Catholic or the Protestant? For her it should be important only the orthodox husband.
2. Why she does not work always? If she works- she will not have time for sadness. She sits on your neck all life?  I have correctly understood? ???She knows, about problems with money and does not work and travel in the Russia?!!!
Sorry for my English

good points, Barbie

[Manny]

There are just a couple of things I would like to comment on.

Both her mother and her were devout Orthodox Christians. Her mother told her that it was sinful for her to be sleeping with me while we were not husband and wife. So she told me we could not have sex again until we got married and we should get married as soon as possible. Instead of having a well planned wedding a few months later we got married in a rush a week later.

I don't understand how this didnt crop up long before she was in country? (By which I mean while you were still visiting her in Russia) Further - who put Mother in charge of daughters sex life anyway? You backed down to Mother and got married in a heartbeat.

So we decided she would use this money to return to Russia which she did for 7 weeks

In my opinion, this and the many other visits, sound too long in duration and too frequent. That doesnt help adaptation.

Finances: She seems to know far too much about your finances than I would like. Others may disagree. "Can we afford X?" to which a "yes" or a "no" would suffice is my preferred model. Intimate knowledge of credit card debt, etc., seems unecessary. Most women will say finances are the mans job. I think she developed the opinion you were unable to support her adequately. The fact that she had to use her own money for one trip would support her theory. That might have changed her mind about having children; kids cost money. A woman will not seek to breed with a man who she thinks is financially unstable. 

Chores: You ended up doing all your own laundry and 30% of the chores and working a full time job. If she knows she can walk all over you like that and dictate stuff like what TV you watch and how fast you eat, she will lose respect for you - as she seems to have done. I don't think you have been assertive enough.

Wife: "I am having medical assistance for physical and emotional exhaustion and not able to talk at the present time because of my condition. If you want call me in about 2 weeks time."

I would find that unacceptable. "About 2 weeks" might mean 3 or 4. It sounds like she is having 2 weeks out to see if she can carry on with you based on the conclusions she has drawn from her version of events. She knows that decision is hers rather than yours.

She sounds like a rather strong-willed woman. If you do seek to repair this, you will need to start wearing the pants.

How and/or if to repair it is a tough call. I wont speculate on that.

[Eduard]

excellent points, Manny...no sex suddenly before we marry??? after he's been having sex with her and she is in his country away from mommy...come on now, that's blatent manipulation IMO

[Link]

1. Downhearted, are you orthodox?
It is very strange.......If your Russian wife very orthodox and very religious  If......... How this Russian orthodox family  allowed to marry  with the Catholic or the Protestant? For her it should be important only the orthodox husband.
2. Why she does not work always? If she works- she will not have time for sadness. She sits on your neck all life?  I have correctly understood? ???She knows, about problems with money and does not work and travel in the Russia?!!!
Sorry for my English

Ultra Orthodox are not allowed or will not marry other Christians non Orthodox such as Roman Catholics or Protestants??

[mendeleyev]

DH, sorry to hear of these troubles.

Bottom line at my first glance: The 2+ week silence plays directly off your cold response the night before departure. "Will you miss me when I'm overseas?" was a loaded with dynamite question. In situations like that a woman is not looking for a yes/no answer. In fact, if she had wanted a one word answer she would have left you sleeping on the sofa. She wanted to talk, literally, about whether or not you would miss her, and why.

Forget Russian and English, women speak "Women-ese" and men speak "Man-ese" and most of us guys have to learn to tell the difference. Guys like short one word questions and answers. Women take thousands of expressions to say one word. Woman-ese is a foreign language because we weren't wired with it at birth. But we do need to learn it.

Most of us have slept on the sofa a few times in marriage so no one is beating up on you. We're sorry for this sadness.

Why the long wait? She is waiting to see if you're man enough to go get your wife.

Both her mother and her were devout Orthodox Christians. Her mother told her that it was sinful for her to be sleeping with me while we were not husband and wife. So she told me we could not have sex again until we got married and we should get married as soon as possible. Instead of having a well planned wedding a few months later we got married in a rush a week later.

Correct that its considered a sin, but most priests are open to discussing this once the lady has arrived in country. With appropiate wedding preparations and a meeting with the priest to confess sins before the wedding, you should be allowed an Orthodox wedding if both met the basic conditions.

If you had a civil wedding then the options are fewer, but a wedding done in an Orthodox church is a sacrament and therefore more "binding" on her than a civil wedding if she considers herself a practicing believer.

But frankly the timing of your living together didn't have much to do with marriage failure.

I agree with Manny on the 2 weeks, but it dovetails with what was said the night before the departure. By calling you to bed she was looking for some sort of communication and common ground. She indicated by her quesiton that she was open to communication about problems. What she got was non communication and a cold non-response.

Look at the positives:
she did work when necessary.
she did come back after her visits home with a good mindset,
a desire for children expressed,
acceptance that many things need to be resolved.

At the very bottom of the pile sounds like you simply don't trust her and she feels it.  Almost all relationship issues start with trust issues.

A letter in her luggage does seem to indicate communication problems.

A lot of 'me' on both sides.

All in all a tough cat to skin.

Yep.


And as others have wisely pointed out we've read only one side of the story. Its like a painting only half complete.

[Barbie]

Ultra Orthodox are not allowed or will not marry other Christians non Orthodox such as Roman Catholics or Protestants??

For the girl- Ultra Orthodox it is very important wedding in  the Orthodox church.  The orthodox church can allow wedding Orthodox with the Catholic in  the Orthodox church.  IF the  man-Catholic has the permit from Orthodox metropolitan (bishop)  IF  the Catholic agrees, that will bring up the future  children only in orthodox belief.  Did Downhearted had wedding in Orthodox church?

[Rasputin]

I am having medical assistance for physical and emotional exhaustion and not able to talk at the present time because of my condition. If you want call me in about 2 weeks time.

Too exhausted to talk? Clearly, you are not a jealous man, as there is another reason why a woman would want to have two weeks to herself without being interrupted by her husband 

The cousin asked the wife if she planned to have children and the wife said she never planned to have children.

For me, the children thing came as a shock. The wife knows I want children and it was one of the key points about marrying her. To find out for 3 years she has never wanted children pisses me off no end.

It is not a good sign that she says this to your cousin and not you. Which begs the question as to what else she has kept from you.

[downhearted]

DH,

It is impossible to give advice with confidence from merely reading a letter. So you should take all advice with a "grain of salt."

I do Simoni

I would not give up so fast.  Any time trying to save a marriage is good time invested.

That’s why I wrote her a letter expressing my concerns instead of a dear john letter

~ Do try counseling

This is going to be a condition if I choose to take her back

~ Become involved with her in the church

I was for a time. I used to go to a number of services with her. She used to attend the church almost weekly and also volunteer. At one stage we looked at getting me converted to Orthodox. We started the process and met with the father and done some of the groundwork. But somewhere down the track she just stopped going to church. She has been just once this year, at Easter. Two years ago it was a weekly thing. Now it seems it is something she has abandoned, like her friendships, in the self destructive path she has taken these last 12 months.

~ Realize that culture shock is a powerful force and yes, three years is just the beginning of adjustment

Yes I realise culture shock is a powerful force but after 3 years you do expect a level of acceptance for a new country. If you cant adjust after 3 years then something is not right.

~ Try to make friends outside of the Russian community

We did and she has blown them all off.

I don't think your letter in the luggage was a good idea at all.  It came across as overly harsh to me, and something that should have been discussed face to face.  And it came after this:

She said darling, will you miss me when I am overseas, expecting me to say I will miss her heaps. I said to her straight out, “No. We need time apart” and she started sobbing expecting sympathy. At this point I was sick of her games so I just turned away and fell asleep.

That was NOT your finest moments, and makes me wonder if you understand women?  I can certainly understand the silent treatment she is giving you now after that parting episode from you.

Maybe it wasn’t one of my finest moments but if you read the first paragraph of the letter you will understand why. I have bought a number of these issues up with the wife in the past and they all ended up in an argument with the whole point of what I was trying to express being lost. Also in written form nothing is lost in translation. A number of times we have discussed things for the wife to misinterpret what was said or claim something was not said at all.

As for what was said in bed, if someone spends months dragging you down and making your life a misery, should I amuse her by saying I will miss her with all my heart. I told her what I felt. If it hurt her feelings then maybe it will give her something to think about in how she turned someone who adored everything about her 12 months ago into someone who can’t wait to be apart from her.

[downhearted]

I think y'all are giving her too much credit.

She cut off contact with friends...why?  Preparation for leaving.  It's easier to not have to say goodbye

She is starting conflict with his parents...why?  She's projecting

She get's homesick...why?  She probably has a man back in the homeland.

She doesn't initiate intimacy....why?  This is the one that hurts....she doesn't love you.

Hi Jaime,
I don’t believe she has a man back home. I would be pretty certain of that.

My mum reckons the cutting her friends off, conflicts she has caused within my family and her attempts of removing my friends out of my life are all part of a plan to remove any support network I have so when she leaves I will have nobody to turn to.

The intimacy is an issue and I have noticed a distinct decline in the love she shows me now to what it was twelve months ago.

Personally I think she does not like living abroad. I think she understands there is not much of a future for her in Russia but she cannot live outside of Russia without feeling conflicted.

[downhearted]

Unsteady job situation, financial stresses, relocation.  Keeping a relationship together is tough enough without all these, maybe the opposite of what she expected, not to mention adding kids into the mix.  OTOH RW don't seem to be like puppies at all, blowing WM expectations right out of the water.

Unsteady job situation - Yes, in the first couple of years. However I am in the most stable job situation I have been with her in the last 6 months. Relocation – We moved twice. The first for employment purposes, the second was a relocation to a place of her desire. Financial Stresses – Despite the unsteady job situation, this only was an issue once. When I was working I was earning a wage 3 times higher than the average wage. I was able to save a bit. Problem was as soon as enough was saved the wife would use it all on a trip to Russia. On average one of her trips would cost around $6k. I only had to dip into the credit card once

a desire for children expressed,

Only thing mentioned about children was her desire not to have them.

At the very bottom of the pile sounds like you simply don't trust her and she feels it.  Almost all relationship issues start with trust issues.

I have never had trust issues with her. However after discovering what she said to my cousin I am starting to have issues in this department. If she has lied to me for 3 years about not wanting children then what else is she lying about.

[downhearted]

1. Downhearted, are you orthodox?
It is very strange.......If your Russian wife very orthodox and very religious  If......... How this Russian orthodox family  allowed to marry  with the Catholic or the Protestant? For her it should be important only the orthodox husband.

Not orthodox but was willing to convert for the wife. However that was short lived as she has seemed to stop going to the church as well.

[downhearted]

I don't understand how this didnt crop up long before she was in country? (By which I mean while you were still visiting her in Russia) Further - who put Mother in charge of daughters sex life anyway? You backed down to Mother and got married in a heartbeat.

In retrospect it was dumb but I couldn’t perceive things turning out as bad as they have now. At the time things were brilliant between us.

In my opinion, this and the many other visits, sound too long in duration and too frequent. That doesnt help adaptation.

I am beginning to see this now

Finances: She seems to know far too much about your finances than I would like. Others may disagree. "Can we afford X?" to which a "yes" or a "no" would suffice is my preferred model. Intimate knowledge of credit card debt, etc., seems unecessary. Most women will say finances are the mans job. I think she developed the opinion you were unable to support her adequately. The fact that she had to use her own money for one trip would support her theory. That might have changed her mind about having children; kids cost money. A woman will not seek to breed with a man who she thinks is financially unstable.

Right from the get go I have wanted to share everything with the wife and to have no secrets from her. Part of this was having joint accounts and disclosing everything. Adequately supporting her is not an issue. She knows I can do that and provide for any future children. The initial trip which she funded a fair portion of was due to our savings being depleted with an intercity move. I could have paid for the trip at the time but she thought she would help out back then financially. That attitude was a short lived one however.   

Chores: You ended up doing all your own laundry and 30% of the chores and working a full time job. If she knows she can walk all over you like that and dictate stuff like what TV you watch and how fast you eat, she will lose respect for you - as she seems to have done. I don't think you have been assertive enough.

I would protest many of these things and her response would be the silent treatment and to do nothing. Invariably I would be the one to back down.

I would find that unacceptable. "About 2 weeks" might mean 3 or 4. It sounds like she is having 2 weeks out to see if she can carry on with you based on the conclusions she has drawn from her version of events. She knows that decision is hers rather than yours.

Manny, I personally think she is trying to gain power over the situation. She likes to be in control. My mum is convinced she is a control freak. When I said I wanted to talk to her she bought up the two week thing and the emotional and physical exhaustion as a means to make me feel guilty for writing the letter and back down. She is very stubborn and she is waiting for me to make the first move

She sounds like a rather strong-willed woman. If you do seek to repair this, you will need to start wearing the pants.

Manny, she is strong-willed. She has always been this way but being strong-willed is not necessarily a bad thing if used in a caring and loving way. I know this from our first 2 years together and I am sure a few of you out there have wives you consider strong willed but in a good way. However when used in a manipulative and controlling way like she is doing it can be very harmful. An issue her is that she is an only child. Spoilt brat syndrome seems to fit her perfectly. Before we met she was probably used to getting everything her way.

I have been guilty of letting her run amok and been a wimp as far as laying down the law goes. The first time she used emotional blackmail on me to get her own way I should have put a stop to it. By backing down to her she realised she could manipulate me and has been doing this to varying degrees since. I should have shown her the door the first time she tried it and said if you don’t like it, there’s the door.

What’s happened to me should be a lesson for those new to the caper of what can happen if you allow your woman to emotionally blackmail you. It can only lead to a heap of pain down the track.

Thanks for your input here. Much appreciated   

[TazMan]

I would say the key of issue in this relationship is lack of respect. She obviously doesn't respect. You should have grown a pair a long time ago. She and her mom ran over you about the pre-marital sex issue and she's continued to do so. This women has many of the character traits of the type of Russian women I wouldn't like to be married to. Once a RW doesn't respect you, its game over. Maybe it was never as good as you thought it was? It seems like you've been reacting to everything rather than being proactive in the relationship.

She did all she needed to sever ties to you and friends/family in your area. If she hasn't contacted you for 12 days, definitely not a good sign. Not a good sign she wasn't really willing to work when you were in bad financial straights. Yes, it IS the man's job to provide for the family but ANY RW I've been involved with would have been willing to help out in a time of financial crisis in the family.

I haven't met an RW that isn't strong-willed. This is nothing unique. You shouldn't have backed down on so many things. RW want a strong man, not a WUSS! Each time you backed down on serious issues, you demeaned your stature in her eyes. It would be better to be a dictator than a "pleaser" type of man for most RW if you are going to err on one side or the other.

I don't hold out much hope for you saving your relationship. Maybe a counselor would help out but you have so many issues. Are you prepared to spend possibly years in counseling with possibly little chance for success? Do you still REALLY love her? I mean REALLY love her and can't think of being with anyone else? What if she continues to treat your poorly? Do you still want to live with her? I still can't believe she made you do the laundry and didn't iron your shirts. That one blows me away. My experience with RW has been that they were always willing to help with these things if we had a good relationship. I can't think of one relationship I had with RW that was more than casual dating where they didn't do this for me. I never asked them to do it nor did I expect it but they always did it... I found it was sort of like intimacy in gauging the state of the relationship. No intimacy + no ironing = no love...

[TomT]

She said darling, will you miss me when I am overseas, expecting me to say I will miss her heaps. I said to her straight out, “No. We need time apart” and she started sobbing expecting sympathy. At this point I was sick of her games so I just turned away and fell asleep.

The plethora of others issues aside, when a woman wants to make peace, a man should make peace. Women are subject to a wider range of emotions than men. This necessarily means that it up to the man to be a stabilizing factor, not to give in when she is strong and exact revenge when she is vulnerable.

[TomT]

This is going to be a condition if I choose to take her back

This doesn't sound good at all. Your wife isn't the only one who needs to think things over.

[downhearted]

The plethora of others issues aside, when a woman wants to make peace, a man should make peace. Women are subject to a wider range of emotions than men. This necessarily means that it up to the man to be a stabilizing factor, not to give in when she is strong and exact revenge when she is vulnerable.

To be honest Tom that is the attitude I have used throughout our relationship and look where it has got me. You can only treat someone like crap all day long and ask for forgiveness so many times before the whole sincerity of it goes. 

This doesn't sound good at all. Your wife isn't the only one who needs to think things over.

So you do not think that counselling would be a good idea?

[mendeleyev]

The plethora of others issues aside, when a woman wants to make peace, a man should make peace. Women are subject to a wider range of emotions than men. This necessarily means that it up to the man to be a stabilizing factor, not to give in when she is strong and exact revenge when she is vulnerable.

Well stated.

[andrewfi]

I know this woman!

OK, not personally but I have experience. Manny knows what I mean.

You both need help.

Find a therapist who can speak both Russian and English. (yep, rare as hen's teeth!) talk to him/her one on one to get moving and then bring along your wife for joint sessions. Follow your therapist's guidanceas to the need for joint and individual sessions.

My guess is that your wife will agree to join with you in therapy as long as you present it as a joint need (which it is!).

Or you could do what most people would suggest and walk away.
There are strong arguments for either course and success is hardly assured with therapy but it WILL help you to understand where you are and where she is and that will be a big help if/when you need to move on.

[Herrie]

....
Find a therapist who can speak both Russian and English. (yep, rare as hen's teeth!) talk to him/her one on one to get moving and then bring along your wife for joint sessions. Follow your therapist's guidanceas to the need for joint and individual sessions.
....

Ladagirl?

I know she's not a therapist but she is a psychologist AFAIK so that should at least help a bit maybe to get some initial problems sorted?

[workedforme]

I am curious. Does she have a set return flight? She sounds an awefully lot like a friend of mines ex-wife. Her mother ruined their marriage. I would not be surprised if she doesn't return now that she is under her mother's thumb again.

[andrewfi]

Workedforme: She'll be back. Don't worry about that! If she does not come back it will not be because her mother is in the way.

[froid]

Yes I realise culture shock is a powerful force but after 3 years you do expect a level of acceptance for a new country. If you cant adjust after 3 years then something is not right.

Some people do not assimilate at all, rebel against the new culture, and are miserable for it.  They withdraw from society as well.  Her behaviour does sound like she is doing just that. 

[anjutka]

I know this woman!

OK, not personally but I have experience. Manny knows what I mean.

You both need help.

Find a therapist who can speak both Russian and English. (yep, rare as hen's teeth!) talk to him/her one on one to get moving and then bring along your wife for joint sessions. Follow your therapist's guidanceas to the need for joint and individual sessions.

My guess is that your wife will agree to join with you in therapy as long as you present it as a joint need (which it is!).

Or you could do what most people would suggest and walk away.
There are strong arguments for either course and success is hardly assured with therapy but it WILL help you to understand where you are and where she is and that will be a big help if/when you need to move on.

good advice...only thing to find right "doctor" :
and yes....its needed for dh more ,in order to understand where to go....

 i was thinking whole day about this situation in our lives..... personally i always give one more chance.....yes, and my dead line always move further.....
 i read or may be someone clever told and i liked
it something like that
-never burn a bridge....-that's one clever thought
-let person go and if this person yours she/he come back - its another  clever thing......