Is Learning Your Partners Language Important to your Relationship?

[Phelan]

If she doesn't want to live an English-speaking life, she shouldn't marry an American.

Sorry but can not stop feeling sorry for your wife.

There's a word for that tactic in debating, can't recall what it is, but it's related to lowlife irrelevancy and pathetic. My wife is a very happy girl, by the way, has been for many years now. I forget, you're divorced, right? Husband didn't learn enough Russian?

No, her husband routinely beat her, and when he threatened her life, she finally summoned the courage to leave him.  He still threatened her, though.  She was happily married to her second husband, from the FSU, until his tragic and unexpected death.

But I guess it was worth winning the "point", right?

Nice sob story and irrelevant to the debate. I didn't bring in that irrelevance. There's no point to win with a lowlife interjection like that.

[Halo]

It's not irrelevant.  You brought it into the debate by mentioning her divorce.  She is widowed.

You should apologize to her.  You could've taken the high road.  Instead you decided to sling  and now justify it.

[Phelan]

There is no apology coming from me to anyone who's trying to make cheap points by dragging my wife into some stupid debate. And you should keep your nose out of it too.

[Halo]

She didn't "drag your wife" into it.  She posted that she felt sorry for your wife based on your comments.  You, OTOH, took a much more personal, and cheap, shot at her, by suggesting she was divorced because . . .     

This is a forum.  Defined as "a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."  I don't need your permission to post, and will comment on anything I wish, subject to the wishes of Admin and the moderator team.

[Anteros]

If she doesn't want to live an English-speaking life, she shouldn't marry an American.

Sorry but can not stop feeling sorry for your wife.

There's a word for that tactic in debating, can't recall what it is, but it's related to lowlife irrelevancy and pathetic. My wife is a very happy girl, by the way, has been for many years now. I forget, you're divorced, right? Husband didn't learn enough Russian?

It's called poisoning the well, it's a logical fallacy, and it's very common on this forum, especially by certain members.

That said I will agree with those who have said that living in a foreign country is very difficult at first, and can be depressing and disorienting.

My first year in Germany I was doing my best to learn the language but it was like constantly banging my head into a brick wall, and yes I often had a headache after trying to speak it and listen to it.

At the end of the first year it was like a switch turned on in my brain and I began to finally understand what I was hearing and I was able to speak conversational stuff with a very good accent.  At that point I gained the confidence to leave the womb of the American base I was on more often and travelled all over the place.  I also joined a couple of German sports clubs and made a few German friends that way.

[Eduard]

I believe that learning by complete immersion can work. Yes, it can be uncomfortable for a while, even stressful...so?

You are not dealing with one stress factor, though.  There is leaving family behind, coming to a new, foreign culture where your education means almost nothing, to a new marriage and learning to live with someone you (often) barely know, often dealing with an unfriendly environment, coping with new food, not knowing how the society functions.  So, there can be a stress overload.

Ed, you have never been through this.  You emigrated with your parents, so while immersed in the culture, you were not only younger, but could hear your native tongue.  Same with your wife. 

I remember landing in Kiev, and meeting an Australian of Ukrainian descent, now a prominent professor in the West.  Even with his native fluency and ability to navigate the system "like a fish", he always enjoyed meeting Westerners who spoke English, for our attitudes were like his, and the opportunity to express one's opinion in one's native tongue (in his case, actually, a second tongue) was always welcome.   I remember this feeling as well.

Halo, when I left Russia actually it was a lot more stressful than you can imagine. I left my father, grandma, uncle, cousins, several close friends behind knowing that I would NEVER, EVER see them again. In those days things were very different and we thought that we could never go back and that our close ones couldn't travel to the US to see us. I actually didn't get to see my grandma because she died before perestroika began and they allowed expats to come back and visit.
Our heads were filled with Soviet anti-American propaganda so we were coming to a "new, dangerous, completely unknown new world" having no way of ever coming back, not knowing what to expect and the best part having $90 for the 3 of us - my mom, grandpa and I 
After going through a demeaning search along with threats and insults at Sheremetyevo we got up to the second floor and I could see my family and a couple of friends who came to see us off standing downstairs through the glass. We couldn't talk through the glass but I'm sure there was a lot of pain in my eyes as I could see a lot of pain in theirs. We just stared at each other knowing that we would never see each other again...  When we finally got on the plane, all three of us started to cry like a baby... all of the emotions were overwhelming- the feeling of relief that we were able to escape the Soviet Union, the pain of saying good bye forever to family and friends, the fear of the unknown future... The rest of the people on the air plane were Austrians and Germans returning home. I remember how they stared at us trying to figure out what was going on.
It wasn't that easy, Halo.
Surely what you wrote: "There is leaving family behind, coming to a new, foreign culture where your education means almost nothing, to a new marriage and learning to live with someone you (often) barely know, often dealing with an unfriendly environment, coping with new food, not knowing how the society functions.  So, there can be a stress overload." is all valid points, but you should also mention the positive - the new beginning, the feeling of finally being together with the man she decided to build her future with, new food can also be a positive by the way  and off course plenty of sex which is a welcome change for any normal woman. When I left Russia there was only snail mail which was always opened and checked, and in many cases was never delivered. Now days the women enjoy Skyping with family and friends and chatting on the phone as well as on social networking sites. In a way it's like they never left. When my wife lived in Moscow for 4 years before she came here she only saw her parents once a year. Since she came to the US she also sees them once a year when they come visit us. So things are different.
I don't disagree with you that they go through a stressful time for a couple of years but everything is relative.

[andrewfi]

Hmm... some fairly 'primitive' attitudes being displayed here from a couple of guys, one of whom really should know better. Phelan maybe just doesn't get it but Eduard you really should, particularly if your tale is true.

If one wants to increase the chances of failure to assimilate then just insist on and impose the complete cultural isolation that forced use of the new language dictates.

Assimilation is a process that needs to be managed. Ed, if you are to follow advice in respect of adding value to your service you probably need to add some sensitivity training to your self improvement schedule. Don't forget Ed that when you arrived in the USA you were surrounded by family, you were not alone. Do you honestly think that the women you help your male clientele to import do not have similar feelings to yours?

You did not have the handicap of the isolation that you now recommend to people bringing a wife to the US.

[Eduard]

Hmm... some fairly 'primitive' attitudes being displayed here from a couple of guys, one of whom really should know better. Phelan maybe just doesn't get it but Eduard you really should, particularly if your tale is true.

If one wants to increase the chances of failure to assimilate then just insist on and impose the complete cultural isolation that forced use of the new language dictates.

Assimilation is a process that needs to be managed. Ed, if you are to follow advice in respect of adding value to your service you probably need to add some sensitivity training to your self improvement schedule. Don't forget Ed that when you arrived in the USA you were surrounded by family, you were not alone. Do you honestly think that the women you help your male clientele to import do not have similar feelings to yours?

You did not have the handicap of the isolation that you now recommend to people bringing a wife to the US.

Hey troll, I'm putting you on ignore, so you can lie and spin all you want. Only an idiot won't see what you are about and I wouldn't want to work with idiots anyway. Smart people can see right through your malicious bullshit. bye! 

[andrewfi]

Ed, you might never see this, but given that you have been through the process of assimilation once and I several times we have shared experience and your support was similar to that which I'd suggest to others (and that other enlightened people follow) why would you suggest a much harsher regime for those following you, your female clients?

I am surprised and disappointed that your attitude is as it is.

One thing: when learning a language I have found that immersion, sensitively applied, is useful - there are limitations.
Assimilation to a new country, culture and life is much more than just learning a language.

[AJ]

One of the more boneheaded posts I've seen here.

Really?  How many years did you spend in a foreign country, surrounded by a language you didn't understand, or even a language you did understand fluently, but the culture was very different from your own?

MANY, and several different times.
It is  very difficult, and it does tax you.You are simply mentally tired and drained after each day, until some fluency starts.

So I agree with the gist of Andrews take on this, and my wife had Russian channels  immediately and assurances that she could skype or call whenever she wanted to.
 Did having Russian TV  hamper her learning curve in English ,possibly ,but  I dont think much,  as she could already communicate well, and dint watch much of it as she understood that it might be a crutch.
 She did really enjoy relaxing after a full day of English , in communicating or hearing Russian for an hour or so in the evenings. just if it was turned on as background noise while she was busy with other things.  She did actively pursue furthering her English level,and worked very diligently at it .We no longer have Russian channels, she doesn't want them.


The caveat would be , for a new couple ,if she made little to no progress, or began to relay mostly on Russian communication
in everything ,going backwards ,not forwards.

[andrewfi]

AJ, I think that pretty much anyone with normal amounts of sensitivity and who has gone through the process is going to think much the same way. I'm only surprised by those who try to suggest otherwise.

Even if there is a hindrance to the fastest possible uptake of English language skills the reduction in stress and relaxation that thinking and communicating in one's own language will enable the greater task - assimilation - to take place faster.

In addition, for the relationship: if the couple are working together toward the goal that is a better way than being a taskmaster imposing one's will upon another.

One thing extra, in my home I pay extra to have a good selection of Estonian & Russian tv and radio channels. It is not expensive. My home is a largely (almost totally) English speaking zone. I know that for any visitors or people living here having access to them is a useful way to relax and unwind. Sometimes I end up watching Dom2 (UGHHH!!) hating the show but knowing that it pays off by enabling my companion to relax and feel comfortable and that pays of in spades for me.

[AJ]

Andrewfi-
You've brought up a crux in this matter-the fact assimilation is much more than just language.
If she is interested and diligent at learning the new language, the possible small set back having Russian available is not
likely to effect her overall assimilation much.

The sink or swim method ,does make one learn a language rather quickly,
 but I  certainly do not think its the best way to assimilate a person who is trying to learn, into a new family dynamic ,and culture.

  I have seen new immigrants simply just not try,and desperately cling to anything of their culture and language.
That's of course  a dead end, and I do feel sorry for both parties in these scenarios.
Reality is if *sink or swim* is  imposed on them ,it likely wont be  productive regardless.


  I do think an English speaking  man marrying a FSU woman whose English is often limited , should try and learn a bit of Russian.
As noted earlier- Learn Cyrillic. It just isn't that hard or time consuming to do. Russian is very phonic.
So get off your lazy popa  and learn the  alphabet. Then you can read.
I know men think they never will be fluent, so why waste the time?
Here's some reasons why-
1. you will be more confident and *yourself* when initially traveling there, and dating , if you learn as much as you can in key phrases.
2. Learning Cyrillic will help you  as well,in the same way.
3. In a relationship, even after she has relocated and perhaps knows English fairly conversationally,
if you know a bit of Russian , and some basics of the way things are often phrased, it will save you a lot of misunderstandings as you will perceive her real intent when her grammar was off  or an  incorrect word used.
It can make for a laugh instead of frustration.
Also if you can catch the gest of a conversation she is having with family or friends,maybe even join in with a small comment (with your own horrible grammar)  it does change the dynamic.
4. There is just very little  negative side to learning some of your wife's language, you certainly are very unlikely to become fluent enough to impede her learning English.
 Unless you just don't want to understand what shes thinking ,because frankly odds are great she is NOT going to be able to fully express herself in English for quite a long time. No matter her level of English , there are times she will be frustrated,she will feel inadequate or stupid  etc. The effort you put forth to lessen that is just good karma ,and good sense.
Do you really have no time for a hour or so of study a day?
 Priorities are of course are she learn English, yet a  mans priorities shouldn't be watching the TV instead of a bit of language study.
 
 

 

[Eduard]

I agree with your post AJ. All good advice. In the passed I agreed with another poster who said that immersion is probably the fastest way to learn a new language but in no way I would suggest "isolation" or anything like that as spun by A-fi.
As I have mentioned above it would be impossible for a FSU woman to be isolated here with Skype and Russian social networking sites under her fingures. She will be keeping in touch with family and friends on a daily basis. She will also make new local Russian-speaking friends rather quickly since there are many all over the US. If she must watch TV it would definitely help her learn English a lot quicker if she didn't watch the Russian channel and only watched English programming (well, maybe with a little mix of Spanish and Hindi, that wouldn't hurt too much    )

[andrewfi]

Ed, just read your words before you start foaming at the mouth. Better yet think before you post. When you write this:

Agreed. Sometimes you read about the rush to provide Russian television, find a local Russian club or something for their new wives. That doesn't make sense to me. I say, dig in where you are and make it work. Don't keep looking over your shoulder.

and this:

I believe that learning by complete immersion can work. Yes, it can be uncomfortable for a while, even stressful...so?

If you think that piling the stress onto a newly arrived woman is the way to go then stand behind what you wrote - don't then go and water it down!

What are you really saying?

Ed, I do not think you are an evil monster but you really do need to get your story straight.

If you think that guys digging their heels in and resisting women finding their own cultural connections is OK then stand by it. If you got it wrong, wrote badly or did not think before writing then why not just say 'sorry, I was unclear, this is what I was trying to say'.

Clarify your message because the folks reading this are potential clients and I am certain that I am not the only one who is seeing, lets call it 'confusion' this time round.

[Rasputin]

"every joke has some joke in it".

My wife says this all the time....I just shake my head...

At first I could not see why. The usual saying: В каждой шутке есть доля правды =   Many a true word is spoken in jest

However, I did find that there was one comedy routine that was called В каждой шутке есть доля шутки: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Pn7DYWA0o

[Eduard]

"every joke has some joke in it".

My wife says this all the time....I just shake my head...

At first I could not see why. The usual saying: В каждой шутке есть доля правды =   Many a true word is spoken in jest

However, I did find that there was one comedy routine that was called В каждой шутке есть доля шутки: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Pn7DYWA0o

"В каждой шутке есть доля правды" is a Russian proverb. "В каждой шутке есть доля шуткu" is a newer Ukrainian version. The Russian version means that there is a little truth in every joke, while the Ukrainian version states that there is a little joke in every joke, while the bulk of it IS the truth 

[andrewfi]

A joke without truth is not a joke.

[Rasputin]

"every joke has some joke in it".

My wife says this all the time....I just shake my head...

At first I could not see why. The usual saying: В каждой шутке есть доля правды =   Many a true word is spoken in jest

However, I did find that there was one comedy routine that was called В каждой шутке есть доля шутки: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Pn7DYWA0o

"В каждой шутке есть доля правды" is a Russian proverb. "В каждой шутке есть доля шуткu" is a newer Ukrainian version. The Russian version means that there is a little truth in every joke, while the Ukrainian version states that there is a little joke in every joke, while the bulk of it IS the truth 

Yes, I knew the Russian version, but was not familiar with the Ukrainian version. For me it also implied that some people will use a joke to express what they really mean as well.

[Eduard]

"every joke has some joke in it".

My wife says this all the time....I just shake my head...

At first I could not see why. The usual saying: В каждой шутке есть доля правды =   Many a true word is spoken in jest

However, I did find that there was one comedy routine that was called В каждой шутке есть доля шутки: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Pn7DYWA0o

"В каждой шутке есть доля правды" is a Russian proverb. "В каждой шутке есть доля шуткu" is a newer Ukrainian version. The Russian version means that there is a little truth in every joke, while the Ukrainian version states that there is a little joke in every joke, while the bulk of it IS the truth 

Yes, I knew the Russian version, but was not familiar with the Ukrainian version. For me it also implied that some people will use a joke to express what they really mean as well.

You got it, Misha!

[Mikeav8r]

That is how I took it as well...and then they can always say "it was just a joke" if the recipient is hurt or pissed by it.  A cowards way of expressing oneself.

[Boris]

Back to the topic...To answer truthfully, no. It turned out to be much more important for her to master English. And, lucky for me, she is very smart and realized this intuitively from the very beginning. She wanted no Russian TV, radio, etc. from the very beginning--even though I offered...

My wife chose this path. She's a strong woman. Locking her in the closet was never really an option. We have many Russian friends so I still get my share of frequent 'headaches' trying to translate Russian to English in my head...I am batting about .150...

[AvHdB]

Back to the topic...To answer truthfully, no. It turned out to be much more important for her to master English. And, lucky for me, she is very smart and realized this intuitively from the very beginning. She wanted no Russian TV, radio, etc. from the very beginning--even though I offered...

My wife chose this path. She's a strong woman. Locking her in the closet was never really an option. We have many Russian friends so I still get my share of frequent 'headaches' trying to translate Russian to English in my head...I am batting about .150...

I suspect most of us are in the minor leagues. 

[Mikeav8r]

Back to the topic...To answer truthfully, no. It turned out to be much more important for her to master English. And, lucky for me, she is very smart and realized this intuitively from the very beginning. She wanted no Russian TV, radio, etc. from the very beginning--even though I offered...

My wife chose this path. She's a strong woman. Locking her in the closet was never really an option. We have many Russian friends so I still get my share of frequent 'headaches' trying to translate Russian to English in my head...I am batting about .150...

I suspect most of us are in the minor leagues. 

...and will remain there...I know I will  (speaking the language that is)

[redroo]

 

[GuppyCaptain]

To answer the question of the original post:

I am planning on learning at least some Russian before I dive into my search. It's only respectful to the woman to do so and has its obvious advantages such as getting around, etc.

I will say this, my first language (Hungarian) is considered extremely difficult to learn so hopefully it carries some weight when I say that even for me, I've learned a little Russian but it is DIFFICULT!

I have no delusions that I'll speak it fluently or even close to it, but knowing even a hundred or so words from a language can be very beneficial.