Children: Learn Russian & English together from birth, or learn Russian later?

[northkape]

Learning languages is an almost free gift for your children...
They have no problem learning three or even four at the same time.
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Me and Lena gave our twin boys three languages almost from the start.
We decided that Lena would communicate with them only in Russian from day one.
And she still does, till this day. I took care of the Norwegian language.
We learned them to speak, read and write in both languages long before starting at school.
Then we had them in an English speaking kindergarten from age 3,,,
and later in private English speaking school.
Today at age 10 they are fluent in speaking, reading and writing Norwegian and English.
They understand Russian almost 100%, speaks very good, reads good,,,,
but writing and grammar is lacking because Lena were unable to find time for practicing.
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Spending time teaching your kids, is the best gift you can ever offer them.
At the same time you are building a relation and friendship that might last a lifetime.
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We decided to give our boys a broad platform in life.
In sports I take them to gymnastics training two evenings a week,,
I go swimming together with them two Sundays a month.
In the winter we go skiing in the mountains and in the summer hiking in the mountains.
We go fishing, walking into the forests for picking mushrooms and berries, birdwatching,,,,
and much more all year long.
In music I take them to our private piano teacher one evening a week,,
At school they have additional piano and also violin, guitar and singing in a choir.
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In arts they go to a private teacher one evening a week learning to draw and paint.
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All of these activities have been going on now for 6 years.
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I have been teaching them in mathematics and science since before school,,,
and so many other things.
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I'm still reading bed-time stories for them almost every evening,
even though they are equally good and fast readers as myself already.
I just love reading for them and they love listening whenever we have the time for it.........
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Kids just loves learning new stuff, all the time, around the clock.
For me, this has in many ways been the best part of my life...
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I made a small web page for women prospects to look at,,
with some photos and videos of my boys here:
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http://www.northkape.com/pictures/photos/index.html
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They attend an incredibly nice school,,,,
with dancing, music, theater, singing, arts in addition to all sciences...
Look here and click on video, then technology video as an example...
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http://www.cisfredrikstad.no
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Jan

 



 

[supranatural]

There are many studies that show a child who grows up with 2 or more languages will have a different, advantageous changes to the brain than a child who grows up with one language.  I have seen one AM/RW marriage (my wife's best friend) where they thought the child was having an issue and stopped the Russian language and they regret it now.  Our child has grown up with 3 languages and has no problem with each one, he is 3 now. I speak English to him, my wife speaks Russian and Grandmom speaks Chinese to him.  I have several friends who are bilingual and their kids grow up bilingual with no issues.  When my son was 2 my wife worried because he seemed to be behind in language skills to the one aforementioned couple's 2 year old but he has since caught up to him and has 3 languages whereas the other boy has only 1 language.  The interesting thing is that my son actually expresses his emotions better verbally (I'm upset, please don't do that) whereas the other boy resorts to hitting when he can't express himself and I think my son has advanced beyond his mono-linguistic playmate.  I grew up bilingual and to this day I can easily pick up languages.

[supranatural]

I'm not sure I understand the "vanity" fussing about learning Ukrainian/Russian if the intent is to live in the English speaking west. English is the international language of business as well. If you're in USA, for your kids anyway, the priority in learning language would be:
1. English
2. Spanish
3. Perhaps Mandarin, or another European language like German or French

Russian/Ukrainian would be way down the list. For Pat, since he is a native French speaker, it will benefit his family to be bilingual in French/English. But even in that case, the intimate emotional part of their relationship will have a primary language, which could end up being either French or even English I suppose. His wife will develop a superior fluency in one or the other.

If you have a goal that you would like to live or develop business in the FSU, and not in the west, then of course the situation is different.

People ask my wife about learning Russian, and she tells them flat out there's no value in it, and it's too difficult to bother with anyway. The only exception is if it's a hobby.

It depends. I agree English is the best language for international business but right behind that would be Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese is fine)and Russian.  China is an economic powerhouse and Russia is not too far behind due to their natural resources (gas, oil).  Spanish is way, way down the list for international business and in my opinion is good for business only in certain areas of the US if you need to deal with immigrant (whether legal or not) labor or have a business in Hispanic ethnic communities.  No offense intended but my son is being raised to deal in a global economy and not as an owner of a local landscaping business (which of course can be a respectable living that can make a lot of money but not where I want my son's career to be headed...).

[Realpainterguy]

My question is this: Should a baby learn Russian and English together from birth, or learn Russian later?

If you have had a baby with your wife, I am interested to know the way you and your wife dealt with the language issue; a child becoming bilingual from birth (or not, as the case may be). It is a given that with a Russian Mother, the child should learn Russian language. English must be the childs primary language though for obvious reasons.

I am thinking that a baby having a Mother speaking to it in Russian and a Father speaking in English will impair the child's language development, as the two languages will intermingle in the child's head. This would be further complicated - I feel - when the kid is maybe 3 and learning to write. Learning Cyrillic and Latin alphabets simultaneously may be too challenging and confusing.

I am interested to know how others have dealt with this and/or opinions generally. (Мнение лингвистов, родителей особо приветствуется)

Well when I was a kid there were missionaries at our church who lived most of the time in France..
Their kids were like 5 and 7 years old..
From birth the mother only spoke French to the children And, the dad only spoke English.
I remembered it because I thought it was neat..That both of the kids were fluent in English and French.
Interesting..

[el_guero]

....

It depends. I agree English is the best language for international business but right behind that would be Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese is fine)and Russian.  China is an economic powerhouse and Russia is not too far behind due to their natural resources (gas, oil).  Spanish is way, way down the list for international business and in my opinion is good for business only in certain areas of the US if you need to deal with immigrant (whether legal or not) labor or have a business in Hispanic ethnic communities.  No offense intended but my son is being raised to deal in a global economy and not as an owner of a local landscaping business (which of course can be a respectable living that can make a lot of money but not where I want my son's career to be headed...).

Chinese for international business?

"No offense intended" strange choice of words ....

[el_guero]

World-wide the important languages are

English
Spanish
Russian or German
Japanese - seems to be coming back, but is challenged by Chinese
French
Chinese
English again - for India.
Arabic
And then the spot languages, important for some business people.  Around 20 to 80 million speakers.
Korean, Turkish, Finnish, Ukrainian, Polish, Norwegian, etc., fit in here.

[Rasputin]

From birth the mother only spoke French to the children And, the dad only spoke English.
I remembered it because I thought it was neat..That both of the kids were fluent in English and French.
Interesting..

That is usually the ideal: parents speak to their children in their language.

[supranatural]

....

It depends. I agree English is the best language for international business but right behind that would be Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese is fine)and Russian.  China is an economic powerhouse and Russia is not too far behind due to their natural resources (gas, oil).  Spanish is way, way down the list for international business and in my opinion is good for business only in certain areas of the US if you need to deal with immigrant (whether legal or not) labor or have a business in Hispanic ethnic communities.  No offense intended but my son is being raised to deal in a global economy and not as an owner of a local landscaping business (which of course can be a respectable living that can make a lot of money but not where I want my son's career to be headed...).

Chinese for international business?

"No offense intended" strange choice of words ....

Why?  You deal in the language of the countries that are economic powerhouses.  It's why English became the primary language of business - almost all economic transactions in the financial industry almost inevitably passes through the US and one of their exchanges.  China is the largest manufacturer in the world.  Exporting to China is considered one of the top emerging markets in the world.  If you want to be able to deal with what will be the top 3 economies in the future, it's going to be English, Chinese and Russian...

[supranatural]

World-wide the important languages are

English
Spanish
Russian or German
Japanese - seems to be coming back, but is challenged by Chinese
French
Chinese
English again - for India.
Arabic
And then the spot languages, important for some business people.  Around 20 to 80 million speakers.
Korean, Turkish, Finnish, Ukrainian, Polish, Norwegian, etc., fit in here.

No offense, just trying to understand your reasoning here - why is Spanish the second most important language?  Is it based on number of speakers?  I ask because you questioned my prior post and I'd like to understand where we base our conclusions on. 

[RichyRich]

World-wide the important languages are;
English
Spanish
Russian or German
Japanese - seems to be coming back, but is challenged by Chinese
French
Chinese
English again - for India.
Arabic
And then the spot languages, important for some business people.  Around 20 to 80 million speakers.
Korean, Turkish, Finnish, Ukrainian, Polish, Norwegian, etc., fit in here.

Spanish? Hahaha, no. Spanish isn't important anywhere outside of the US in all honesty, for a hobby and culture sure, but for real world practical use? no.

Russian and German are the two you should learn if you wish to be successful within Europe as Germany is the economic powerhouse of the EU and Russian as a rising economic powerhouse, in Central and Eastern Europe if you know either German or Russian, you're set business wise. Also both languages are beautiful in their own ways

Where is Japanese making a come back?

French is a diplomatic language mainly, while people claim that it's making a come back for business in Europe, it isn't. English or German are the main languages that are spoken, not French and outside of Europe aside from a couple of African countries, French is useless.

I'm 50/50 on whether or not Mandarin is worth learning, the Chinese all seem to speak English anyway (those that matter) so is it needed?

English again for India? WTF English is British English, any other kind is wrong.

Arabic in regards to Islam and ME culture is important, not worth knowing if you don't find either of them appealing otherwise as most business is conducted in English from what I understand, mainly due to the expat workers that are out there.

My children will most likely speak English, German and Russian, maybe they'll learn French too but English, German and Russian are the important ones in my opinion.

[supranatural]

World-wide the important languages are;
English
Spanish
Russian or German
Japanese - seems to be coming back, but is challenged by Chinese
French
Chinese
English again - for India.
Arabic
And then the spot languages, important for some business people.  Around 20 to 80 million speakers.
Korean, Turkish, Finnish, Ukrainian, Polish, Norwegian, etc., fit in here.

Spanish? Hahaha, no. Spanish isn't important anywhere outside of the US in all honesty, for a hobby and culture sure, but for real world practical use? no.

Russian and German are the two you should learn if you wish to be successful within Europe as Germany is the economic powerhouse of the EU and Russian as a rising economic powerhouse, in Central and Eastern Europe if you know either German or Russian, you're set business wise. Also both languages are beautiful in their own ways

Where is Japanese making a come back?

French is a diplomatic language mainly, while people claim that it's making a come back for business in Europe, it isn't. English or German are the main languages that are spoken, not French and outside of Europe aside from a couple of African countries, French is useless.

I'm 50/50 on whether or not Mandarin is worth learning, the Chinese all seem to speak English anyway (those that matter) so is it needed?

English again for India? WTF English is British English, any other kind is wrong.

Arabic in regards to Islam and ME culture is important, not worth knowing if you don't find either of them appealing otherwise as most business is conducted in English from what I understand, mainly due to the expat workers that are out there.

My children will most likely speak English, German and Russian, maybe they'll learn French too but English, German and Russian are the important ones in my opinion.

Exactly.

Chinese is important however but not a necessity if you know English.  That said a friend of mine has made a lot of money over the last 3 years and he is an American born Chinese who didn't care for the language.  He tells me that by relearning Mandarin it's made a huge impact on his business he started in China and he finally achieved his life long goal of becoming a multi millionaire. 

[Realpainterguy]

From birth the mother only spoke French to the children And, the dad only spoke English.
I remembered it because I thought it was neat..That both of the kids were fluent in English and French.
Interesting..

That is usually the ideal: parents speak to their children in their language.

Yes it should be the deal.. but sadly sometimes it is not..
I knew so many families in California that did not teach Spanish to their children..
Crazy, Kids grew up Hispanic couldn't speak Spanish... And at a severe handicap in the west coast work force because they were not bilingual ...
All the parents had noble reasons... but a mistake none the least..

[el_guero]

From birth the mother only spoke French to the children And, the dad only spoke English.
I remembered it because I thought it was neat..That both of the kids were fluent in English and French.
Interesting..

That is usually the ideal: parents speak to their children in their language.

Yes it should be the deal.. but sadly sometimes it is not..
I knew so many families in California that did not teach Spanish to their children..
Crazy, Kids grew up Hispanic couldn't speak Spanish... And at a severe handicap in the west coast work force because they were not bilingual ...
All the parents had noble reasons... but a mistake none the least..

While the USofA is the second largest Spanish speaking country in the world, Spanish is not necessary here more than 20 miles from the border.

As for raising kids to speak multi-lingual, the most difficult part of that is quality control.  If the parent is not a decent speaker of the language, you will not get anywhere near native fluency, and you may not even get beyond American textbook level - which is usually terrible.

Especially textbook Spanish.

But, make sure your kid gets some tutoring, or outside practice, otherwise, the kid grows up with only one set of sound bytes for the language .... and that would always be a problem.

And find a way for them to become comfortable in multi-lingual mode.  I am seeing that kids today DO NOT want to speak in their second native tongue here in San Antonio - Russian kids seem to prefer pulling teeth over speaking Russian.

Even when around a group of Russians and Ukrainians.

[el_guero]

Richy,

Natural resources are dominated by English, Spanish, Russian, German, and Portuguese languages.  Dutch and French also figure up there.  Approximately 3/5's of the world are covered by English, Russian, and Spanish speakers.  Except for Chinese there are no other languages covering vast land areas. 

Chinese is actually 7 languages and 7 dialects (at a minimum).  When you break Chinese down by actual mother tongue, it becomes a minor player.

So, Chinese?  Hire a team of translators.  Chinese is so difficult for the Chinese to use, it just does not make sense to try to master, unless you plan on living there.

[AvHdB]

  Dutch is handy if you are growing tulip bulbs or conceiving stupid reality TV shows to sell to the American's. But even the local gas station attendant if you ask him Vullen de auto met diesel A.U.B He will reply in good English, Do you want me to check the level of the oil?

[andrewfi]

But even the local gas station attendant if you ask him Vullen de auto met diesel A.U.B He will reply in good English, Do you want me to check the level of the oil?

You have guys who do that stuff still?

[supranatural]

Richy,

Natural resources are dominated by English, Spanish, Russian, German, and Portuguese languages.  Dutch and French also figure up there.  Approximately 3/5's of the world are covered by English, Russian, and Spanish speakers.  Except for Chinese there are no other languages covering vast land areas. 

Chinese is actually 7 languages and 7 dialects (at a minimum).  When you break Chinese down by actual mother tongue, it becomes a minor player.

So, Chinese?  Hire a team of translators.  Chinese is so difficult for the Chinese to use, it just does not make sense to try to master, unless you plan on living there.

Your first comment may be true but out of those 7 languages only English is a major player, the rest are bit players and definitely not a requirement to conduct business on an global stage.  The only thing that makes the comment true is that English covers probably 95% of the use cases for all those languages.  It's irrelevant that a lot of people speak Spanish, we are talking about what will really make you money internationally and there are a lot more use cases for English than Spanish by far.

The comment about Chinese is incorrect - Mandarin or Cantonese will cover 98% of what you need to know, the other dialects/languages are distinctly minor players, the same way Spanish is on the world stage.  In fact if you know Cantonese, you can understand Mandarin in the same way that a Russian speaker can frequently understand a lot of Ukrainian language - this I know from actual experience.  As far as hiring a team of translators, I thought this discussion was about useful languages to teach a child.  If your child grows up with Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese) you won't need a team of translators.  If my child were to grow up fluent in Mandarin, he doesn't need a team of translators to conduct business in China as my friends have proven already.

[Rasputin]

If the parent is not a decent speaker of the language, you will not get anywhere near native fluency

Decent speaker? Either they are a native speaker or they are not.

But, make sure your kid gets some tutoring, or outside practice, otherwise, the kid grows up with only one set of sound bytes for the language .... and that would always be a problem.

True, and grandparents, uncles, aunts and others should help with this.

And find a way for them to become comfortable in multi-lingual mode.  I am seeing that kids today DO NOT want to speak in their second native tongue here in San Antonio - Russian kids seem to prefer pulling teeth over speaking Russian.

The fact of the matter is that it is difficult to learn the phonemes of a language after adolescence. Even if they do not want to speak the language, at least they should have the basic building blocks of that language and if they want to improve their language later in life, it will be easier and faster to do than starting from zero.

[Guile]

Found this old thread, lots of interesting info.  For those with kids how is their English and Russian fluency now?

I have alot of experience with this as well.  Grew up in a bilingual household.  Parents immigrated and had to learn English for work.  Spoke to me in Chinese at home.

Alot of my Chinese friends came here at a young age often not speaking a word of English.  Within a year they were fluent and if you heard them speak you would think they are a native English speaker.  I would say 7 or 8 is the oldest one can start a new language and not have an accent.

The most important factor is what language the child will learn at school.  They will hear it all the time and use it to talk with their peers.  Even parents who speak a different language at home, unless they get formal education in that language their skill level won't be so high.

For global languages to learn English is #1 by far.  Mandarin Chinese is getting hugely popular now because of China's emerging dominance.  Everything is "made in China" and doing business with over 1 billion people is seen as the future.

Chinese is so tough that I have only seen 1 or 2 foreigners speak it with no accent. It's basically impossible.  There are some foreign kids who moved to China and went to Chinese school, but I consider them to have the same education as a local.  Even all the overseas Chinese who heard it as a baby, many will have accents depending on how interested they were in it. 

It's probably the same with Russian or any language.   I have a few Russian friends who went to China and can speak it fluently now.  And their English is excellent. It's always fun to talk to them in 3 languages haha.

[Manny]

For those with kids how is their English and Russian fluency now?

Our daughter is ten now.

Although she is very bright and does very well at school, in speech she still mixes up the odd word (like has/had/have). There are very small things in English speech I correct her on maybe several times a week - I dont remember having to do that with my son (who is 15 with an English mother). I put that down to side by side learning Russian and their gazillion tenses.

She understands everything she hears. The household is generally in English. Her and her mother speak only Russian when they are alone together. They visit Russia maybe 5-8 weeks a year annually. She speaks exclusively Russian there. She can watch Russian or English cartoons and web content.

My wife complains her Russian isn't as fluent as she'd like it to be. Last year she had a Russian teacher while there to help her with some pronunciation (rolling her "r" correctly was one). She is apparently two or three years behind a native Russian kid, which I think is fine as a second language - and way, way above my level.

Her Cyrillic comprehension is less than my wife would like. She gets the letters and can read it - but slowly and a bit stilted - rather like me. I tease her I can read Cyrillic better than her.

She can translate from Russian to English almost instantaneously as someone is speaking - like a three second running delay. The ability to translate while listening and talking is an enviable skill - like a left and right brain together thing (she is mostly left handed funnily enough). The other way I dont know so much as after all these years she is still shy to let me hear her speak Russian. She is similarly shy to let me see her play the piano. I can hear both from a nearby room.

[msmoby]

The other way I dont know so much as after all these years she is still shy to let me hear her speak Russian. She is similarly shy to let me see her play the piano. I can hear both from a nearby room.

That is 'pride' ?.. she doesm't want ou to hear her not performing it to perfection ?

I've seen many kids in Cyprus learn three languages .. (RU, ENG, Greek ) simultaneously and have exactly the same issues with mixing up tenses / words ..

When I see them years, later ... I'm struck by the ones that are fluent in at least two languages aren't necessarily the on's who are the most intelligent .. They just mix with their peers and don't feel pressure to be perfect in a parent's mother tongue.




 

[Guile]

Manny, seems like your daughter is doing quite well.   Mixing up has/have/had is minor, she'll learn it.  Chinese has no such tense and the structure of the language is quite different, but alot of my friends speak "Chinglish". a mixture of 2 with words from both.

Does she take formal Russian lessons?  Focus on the speaking/ listening for now, the Cyrillic can come later.

She's probably doing better than many kids with a Russian parent who live abroad.  Do you know of any in your social group and what level are those kids?

[Mr strange]

Children and kids pick up whats around them as their minds are very open until a certain age where they are very adjusted to the world.

As a kid born in Denmark the family lived in the UK when I was just about learning to speak and it was English and Danish for the most part since then. I am still fluent in both.

A cassette tape was  found by me at my grandmother and to everyones surprice it is 20 minutes of an evening visit in September 1977. Me being 3 years old.