To Evpatoria!

[Cestmoi]

No, it was ment as a joke It came out totally wrong though, because of her sickness and bad knowledge of english language. Read friday evening, when I talked to her about it

Mark, I read a post... this is rude even for a joke...normally in Ukraine people dont' make jokes like this even when they are sick.. but this is just my humble opinion... ;-)

[Cestmoi]

Well, she said she would have liked some perfume , but when I had the chance to buy perfume , she said she didn't want a present. I goto ukraine was enough.

Aaaaah women!

I will inquire what perfume she likes and take with me next time

the two phrases (about presents and about don't want presents) in combination, translated from female language, - could (or maybe not) mean you need to find a present yourself, guess what she would have liked, and give it to her. Not telling her "pick what you want i'll pay"...

[Markje]

Mark, I read a post... this is rude even for a joke...normally in Ukraine people dont' make jokes like this even when they are sick.. but this is just my humble opinion... ;-)

Well, if that is her only fault as a person, I will be very happy!!!!!   

[Cestmoi]

I will inquire what perfume she likes and take with me next time

this is the best idea :-)

[Cestmoi]

Well, if that is her only fault as a person, I will be very happy!!!!!   

and i agree with you  i personally like Lena a lot 



to share with you more of a cultural insight, there are two russian (also used in ukraine) proverbs, relevant to "gift jokes".

1. Дареному коню в зубы не смотрят. - People don't check the teeth of a horse if the horse was given as a present.
{meaning that peope don't critic and complain about the gifts/presents they receive, for the mere fact that it is a gift, costed the receiver nothing, and they should not judge it.}

2. Дают - бери, бьют - беги. - If you are being given something - take it, if you are being beaten - run away.
{meaning accept the good (anything, including items or good treatment), run away from bad treatment}.

Of course there are other traditions - like bringing presents when you come to visit the family. But usually people bring presents when they stay with the family - not in the hotel, - and even in this case, your souvenirs - qualify, trust me. ;-) there are no reasons to feel humiliated or ashamed.

[cdrp]

Mark,

Thanks for the post.  Reading about your visit gives so much insight on the Ukrainian experience, even if it is just one visit.  The difficulties, joys and misunderstanding, good and bad, give a wonderful peek into what it is like to meet someone and spend a romantic week.

I hope your adventure continues to blossom as it has in this post.  And I can't wait to hear about your next visit!

Don

[alenika]

Right now, I accept certain behaviour because of language-barriers.

You do great Mark. I just imagine what noise someone else would make from that her joke and either would run in panic to the forum or run right away to some antiscam website. But you did just right- you found out what she meant, found out about mistake because of language barrier, also gave attention to her being sick (which most guys here wouldn't take in account at all and would only concentrate on own nervousness lost in strange city). And the most important you did - was that you found out what those words really meant and what real feelings were. Well done. 

[Cestmoi]

Right now, I accept certain behaviour because of language-barriers.

You do great Mark. I just imagine what noise someone else would make from that her joke and either would run in panic to the forum or run right away to some antiscam website. But you did just right- you found out what she meant, found out about mistake because of language barrier, also gave attention to her being sick (which most guys here wouldn't take in account at all and would only concentrate on own nervousness lost in strange city). And the most important you did - was that you found out what those words really meant and what real feelings were. Well done. 

agree.

Марк молодец. А девушке судя по всему палец в рот не клади 

[Stirlitz]

Well, it is a classic car. I enjoyed my road trip in it very much

you were lucky it didnt ruin while you were going

Why would it ruin. It has never failed me on a highway. To say it has never broken down and I haven’t had to be towed once or twice would be a lie; after all, *she* is 47 years old. Yet whenever I drive to another town I know I will make it there, and back too, and if it breaks down it always happens in a town or close to it so I am safe. In fact, it is a very reliable car made to last and endure tough Russian/Ukrainian roads. I wonder how modern cars will do some 40 years later; well I am sure that they will all have been scrapped by that time or put in a museum, but not running.

[Paul]

In every joke there is a grain of truth. That is to say sometimes we reveal our true thoughts or feelings in a "joke."

Well, she said she would have liked some perfume , but when I had the chance to buy perfume , she said she didn't want a present. I goto ukraine was enough.

Aaaaah women!

I will inquire what perfume she likes and take with me next time

I TOLD YOU TO BRING HER SOME PERFUME BEFORE YOUR TRIP  No one ever listens to DD 

Markje, I rarely read TR's (although I have posted them), I couldn't wait to read yours! I had my fingers crossed for you the whole time  I'm glad things seem to have turned out well, and I think it is so cool that Lena's mother made a "picnic" for the two of you, her not keeping you a secret from her mother tells me a lot about what she thinks of you 

I wouldn't make too much of the text message (I would have completely forgotten about it by now).

Great TR and pics!

[tbelknap]

Great stuff Mark.   Thanks for sharing and don't listen to the peanut gallery.



Thomas

[Wild Orchid]

I'm with Rasputin on the subject of gifts. Sick or no sick I don't know how she could say that. It is just plain rude in any culture.

[TomT]

In every joke there is a grain of truth. That is to say sometimes we reveal our true thoughts or feelings in a "joke."

Well, she said she would have liked some perfume , but when I had the chance to buy perfume , she said she didn't want a present. I goto ukraine was enough.

Aaaaah women!

I will inquire what perfume she likes and take with me next time

Hanae Mori pink butterfly will always be a hit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300218129581

...but get the real parfum, not the eau de parfum or eau de toilet crap.

[ECR844]

In every joke there is a grain of truth. That is to say sometimes we reveal our true thoughts or feelings in a "joke."

Well, she said she would have liked some perfume , but when I had the chance to buy perfume , she said she didn't want a present. I goto ukraine was enough.

Aaaaah women!

I will inquire what perfume she likes and take with me next time

Hanae Mori pink butterfly will always be a hit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300218129581

...but get the real parfum, not the eau de parfum or eau de toilet crap.

"Markje,"

  "Spring flowers" by Creed was a huge hit for me as well and my lady has already requested a 'larger' supply as it is now her fav fragrance.

http://www.creedfragrances.co.uk/site/products/fragrances_for_women/millesime_fragrances

http://www.creedfragrances.co.uk/site/contact_us/distributors
 

[Markje]

I'm with Rasputin on the subject of gifts. Sick or no sick I don't know how she could say that. It is just plain rude in any culture.

I thought so to, hence I talked to her about it that evening and explained that she hurt my feelings. She said sorry and I am done with it.

If her only fault is that she is rude sometimes, I will be a very happy man. She is only human after all!

[tbelknap]

I'm with Rasputin on the subject of gifts. Sick or no sick I don't know how she could say that. It is just plain rude in any culture.

I thought so to, hence I talked to her about it that evening and explained that she hurt my feelings. She said sorry and I am done with it.

If her only fault is that she is rude sometimes, I will be a very happy man. She is only human after all!

Markje, I wouldn't have married my wife if I followed the crap advice from Rasputin.  I can see your girl is still learning English and things will not be said correctly or a joke may not come out right.  That isn't a reason to just dump the woman.  I also know that the way Russians talk can be seen as somewhat rude to western people.  This is something I had to adjust to. 

It sounds like everything is going great and I think you area pretty smart guy and will know when something isn't right. 


Thomas

[jb]

I think Thomas is correct.  When we, as native English speakers who have perhaps a vocabulary of several thousand words at our command, try to communicate with a non-native speaker with a much lesser vocabulary,,, maybe only a few hundred words to choose from, I think great consideration must be given to the one who struggles to make a thought clear in their non-native language. 

What someone here thinks is rude, may just be another person trying to express a thought as clearly as possible.  In that context it isn't rude at all.  It's just an honest effort.

Just my 2 cents.

[Olga_Mouse]

== Friday , sick day :-( ==

I am awoken early by Lena's message on my mobile phone. She is very sick and does not want to meet me. I nearly faint! I tell her good health and sleep well.

Wasn't she asking the taxi driver to stop the evening before to go to the drugstore?

And YOU surely haven't inquiried what the problem is?

It can also be considered as a rude behaviour, by the way...

about 30 minutes later she sends me another SMS. "I think when a man likes a woman, he will send her gifts (not souvenirs) and does not allow her to spend her own money"...

Yes, indeed - that's what men here are expected to do!

So far you've been paying some crazy sums of money (comparing to her income) for YOUR OWN leg comfort (e.g. taxi instead of bus, drive with Igor from Odessa, etc. - "throwing money on the wind" as we say) - but you only brought her & her mother cheap souvenirs?

Fridge magnets and kitchen decoration plates are the kind of things I buy in dozens while abroad for my office collagues or casual acquaintances. But when it goes about "someone special", I look for something useful & valuable - some branded cloth item, or Samsonite backpack, or a bottle of French cognac from Duty Free...

Oh well, that's maybe just me, and WM do not consider bringing just souvenirs cheap? 

Another question:

What was the phrase about "allowing her to spend her own money" about?

Has she had to pay her own bills in restaurants, or her own bus fare to Yalta, etc.?

Her answer is very clear though "I very grievance". So I was wrong, she really is sick.

BTW, what was her sickness anyway? Sounds to me as a period...

[mirror]

Olga_Mouse
BTW, what was her sickness anyway? Sounds to me as a period...

Are you going to talk about female period with men here? 
My suggestion is  to leave similar secrets for they both (Markje and his Lena) to discuss. 8)

[Olga_Mouse]

Are you going to talk about female period with men here? 

Why not? 

A guy who never actually LIVED with a woman for a relatively long time has no idea the period can be the reason for quick mood changes and suggen tears... and will step into the jungles of cultural differences while analyzing her SMS instead of noticing that the girl has bought a pack of Libresse in the drugstore the evening before 

Markje looks quite immature to me when it goes about communicating with women - and his St-Petersburg story about forgetting the condoms proves it. Judging from his posts, he hasn't grown much since then...

[cdrp]

Are you going to talk about female period with men here? 

Why not? 

A guy who never actually LIVED with a woman for a relatively long time has no idea the period can be the reason for quick mood changes and suggen tears... and will step into the jungles of cultural differences while analyzing her SMS instead of noticing that the girl has bought a pack of Libresse in the drugstore the evening before 

Markje looks quite immature to me when it goes about communicating with women - and his St-Petersburg story about forgetting the condoms proves it. Judging from his posts, he hasn't grown much since then...

Ouch! Does it feel warm in here, or is it just me?  Markje, I don't think men will ever be able to figure out everything regarding relationships like [some] women apparently can.  Patience, understanding and forgiveness seems to be a universal necessity that transcends cultures.  You appear to have a good start from what I can see.  Just my 2 scents  (I prefer Chanel)

[Markje]

Are you going to talk about female period with men here? 

Why not? 

A guy who never actually LIVED with a woman for a relatively long time has no idea the period can be the reason for quick mood changes and suggen tears... and will step into the jungles of cultural differences while analyzing her SMS instead of noticing that the girl has bought a pack of Libresse in the drugstore the evening before 

Since you must know, I lived 5 years with a woman so I have quite good idea about periods and things like that 

As for Lena's reason to buy drugs, I knew why and what she bought. For her its very private though, so I won't elaborate. (Even though I think its not a big deal.)

[tbelknap]

Since you must know, I lived 5 years with a woman so I have quite good idea about periods and things like that 

Our Markje is growing up so fast.  I remember just not too long ago when he figured out question marks and exclamation points.   



Thomas

[Markje]

== Friday , sick day :-( ==

I am awoken early by Lena's message on my mobile phone. She is very sick and does not want to meet me. I nearly faint! I tell her good health and sleep well.

Wasn't she asking the taxi driver to stop the evening before to go to the drugstore?

And YOU surely haven't inquiried what the problem is?

It can also be considered as a rude behaviour, by the way...

Yes I knew exactly what she had. I also knew exactly what she bought. I just didn't know it could turn so painful even though it was relativly harmless.

about 30 minutes later she sends me another SMS. "I think when a man likes a woman, he will send her gifts (not souvenirs) and does not allow her to spend her own money"...

Yes, indeed - that's what men here are expected to do!

So far you've been paying some crazy sums of money (comparing to her income) for YOUR OWN leg comfort (e.g. taxi instead of bus, drive with Igor from Odessa, etc. - "throwing money on the wind" as we say) - but you only brought her & her mother cheap souvenirs?

Fridge magnets and kitchen decoration plates are the kind of things I buy in dozens while abroad for my office collagues or casual acquaintances. But when it goes about "someone special", I look for something useful & valuable - some branded cloth item, or Samsonite backpack, or a bottle of French cognac from Duty Free...

Oh well, that's maybe just me, and WM do not consider bringing just souvenirs cheap? 

Another question:

What was the phrase about "allowing her to spend her own money" about?

Has she had to pay her own bills in restaurants, or her own bus fare to Yalta, etc.?

Remember, I never met her before. I didn't know if she was going to be special or not. It was a first-date situation, are you saying that on first date you buy tons of expensive gifts? I am having a layover in Moscow next time instead of Prague!

About her money: No she never had to pay for anything and I know I paid for expensive stuff for my own comfort. Even when Lena was obviously against the idea of paying for a taxi from Bakhchiserai to Evpatoria.

Her answer is very clear though "I very grievance". So I was wrong, she really is sick.

BTW, what was her sickness anyway? Sounds to me as a period...

If you really want to know, catch me on Email.

[Stirlitz]

So far you've been paying some crazy sums of money (comparing to her income) for YOUR OWN leg comfort (e.g. taxi instead of bus, drive with Igor from Odessa, etc. - "throwing money on the wind" as we say) - but you only brought her & her mother cheap souvenirs?

Nothing wrong with that. What do Mark's costs and even whims have to do with [the cost of] the gifts he brought her? It seems like it is obligatory to make expensive gifts to a woman you court and even take into account her mother. I disagree and I don't see a valid point there. Gifts are a matter of politeness, expressing interest in her but by no means obligatory. Hey they are just DATING and that's it. As far as I am concerned, Mark has not proposed. What's more I would have been surprised if the gifts were very expensive. I would think it was premature. Some women would not even accept it. Yes, the cost of the gift does matter but actually it should not be too expensive for the first date or else it would look improper.

Now, from another perspective imagine Mark is local. Would you expect a local guy to give you something valuable on the first date simply because he can afford it, e.g. rides in a luxurious car?

Markje, I wouldn't have married my wife if I followed the crap advice from Rasputin.

I agree that his advice is too abrupt to follow but calling it crap does not make you look better either.