NATO going forward new thread/NATO Brexit?

[2tallbill]

The purpose of NATO moving forward

Europe has money, which European country doesn't? Why does the USA
need to keep every shipping lane open? For free on the backs of the USA
taxpayers? Does Germany/France/the UK pay a single ¢ or pence? Why not?

The USA budget is upside down and we are deep in debt. Maybe Europe
needs to finance their own security and shipping?

What say you?

Would Europe even come to the aid of Ukraine? Can they even provide
security for themselves?

What would all the Russian sycophants here say about stopping Russian
expansion in Ukraine then? How many Kremlin believers would still
believe that Russia are just peaceful NAZI's in Ukraine stoppers then?   

Do any of the Russian propagandists wonder, if Russia would stop at Ukraine?
So far all of the ones here believe so. Do any of your opinions change if the
USA decided to do a Brexit from NATO?

Does anyone think Putin would agree to return Crimea back to Ukraine for a
US Brexit?
 

[Contrarian]

If Trump wants to leave NATO that would be fine with me. Why support that? It's filled with woke type pols, trying to be tough. Let them handle it. Get out and don't give them a dime anymore.

No I don't believe Russia wants all of Ukraine or is going to keep going, not for a second. Why would a sane leader want to try to take care of that state?

It's the USA which goes around the world invading others, whether by proxy or directly. Needs to stop!

I suspect the USA does get paid somehow for keeping shipping lanes open.

[Markje]

The purpose of NATO moving forward

Europe has money, which European country doesn't? Why does the USA
need to keep every shipping lane open? For free on the backs of the USA
taxpayers? Does Germany/France/the UK pay a single ¢ or pence? Why not?

Loads of questions and the simple answer is easily googled : Yes Europe pays tons to keep the shipping lanes open and also sends hardware (mainly frigates) to enforce the peace / scare off pirates.

The USA budget is upside down and we are deep in debt. Maybe Europe
needs to finance their own security and shipping?

They already do. Its a joint effort because both USA and Europe use mostly the same shipping lanes. Guess you won't hear about that in American news outlets.

Would Europe even come to the aid of Ukraine? Can they even provide
security for themselves?

Europe sent about $65 Billion dollars in 2022-2023 to Ukraine and another $43 billion of military hardware, totalling 108 billion dollars worth of aid. Where does the idea come from that Europe doesn't help.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253

Does anyone think Putin would agree to return Crimea back to Ukraine for a
US Brexit?

Even if he did. Crimea would not agree and start an insurgency immediatly.

[2tallbill]

The purpose of NATO moving forward

Europe has money, which European country doesn't? Why does the USA
need to keep every shipping lane open? For free on the backs of the USA
taxpayers? Does Germany/France/the UK pay a single ¢ or pence? Why not?

Loads of questions and the simple answer is easily googled : Yes Europe pays tons to keep the shipping lanes open and also sends hardware (mainly frigates) to enforce the peace / scare off pirates.

The USA budget is upside down and we are deep in debt. Maybe Europe
needs to finance their own security and shipping?

They already do. Its a joint effort because both USA and Europe use mostly the same shipping lanes. Guess you won't hear about that in American news outlets.

Would Europe even come to the aid of Ukraine? Can they even provide
security for themselves?

Europe sent about $65 Billion dollars in 2022-2023 to Ukraine and another $43 billion of military hardware, totalling 108 billion dollars worth of aid. Where does the idea come from that Europe doesn't help.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253

Does anyone think Putin would agree to return Crimea back to Ukraine for a
US Brexit?

Even if he did. Crimea would not agree and start an insurgency immediatly.

Europe does far too little, far too late and completely ineffectually.

Europe does not protect their shipping. Do any Europeans ship to or from
the Strait of Hormuz? Tell me how many Frigates are there? Tell me
about shipping to India, Australia, Canada, South America? The South
China sea?

A couple frigates roaming around does not even remotely cover it.
You are throwing in 50 cents to pay for a daughters wedding, then
saying look I chipped in!

$100 Billion for Ukraine? What percentage is that? Is it a help? Sure, it is.
Was it enough to actually keep the Ukrainians afloat? Not even remotely
close. Dementia Joe was just as bad.   

My point isn't that Europeans don't do anything, but not nearly enough.
My other point for the Russophiles here is that Trump has a bunch of
leverage points both carrots and sticks that Putin would take seriously.

The Russian apologists here thinking that Trump is going in to negotiate
totally feckless is a nonstarter.

[Contrarian]

The purpose of NATO moving forward

Europe has money, which European country doesn't? Why does the USA
need to keep every shipping lane open? For free on the backs of the USA
taxpayers? Does Germany/France/the UK pay a single ¢ or pence? Why not?

Loads of questions and the simple answer is easily googled : Yes Europe pays tons to keep the shipping lanes open and also sends hardware (mainly frigates) to enforce the peace / scare off pirates.

The USA budget is upside down and we are deep in debt. Maybe Europe
needs to finance their own security and shipping?

They already do. Its a joint effort because both USA and Europe use mostly the same shipping lanes. Guess you won't hear about that in American news outlets.

Would Europe even come to the aid of Ukraine? Can they even provide
security for themselves?

Europe sent about $65 Billion dollars in 2022-2023 to Ukraine and another $43 billion of military hardware, totalling 108 billion dollars worth of aid. Where does the idea come from that Europe doesn't help.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253

Does anyone think Putin would agree to return Crimea back to Ukraine for a
US Brexit?

Even if he did. Crimea would not agree and start an insurgency immediatly.

Europe does far too little, far too late and completely ineffectually.

Europe does not protect their shipping. Do any Europeans ship to or from
the Strait of Hormuz? Tell me how many Frigates are there? Tell me
about shipping to India, Australia, Canada, South America? The South
China sea?

A couple frigates roaming around does not even remotely cover it.
You are throwing in 50 cents to pay for a daughters wedding, then
saying look I chipped in!

$100 Billion for Ukraine? What percentage is that? Is it a help? Sure, it is.
Was it enough to actually keep the Ukrainians afloat? Not even remotely
close. Dementia Joe was just as bad.   

My point isn't that Europeans don't do anything, but not nearly enough.
My other point for the Russophiles here is that Trump has a bunch of
leverage points both carrots and sticks that Putin would take seriously.

The Russian apologists here thinking that Trump is going in to negotiate
totally feckless is a nonstarter.

As opposed to Ukraine apologists like you?

Russia says the 14,000 civilians killed in Donbas was genocide. Here's an article on war crimes.

https://sputnikglobe.com/20160513/russia-donbass-investigation-1039568801.html


The problem with accusations, is the other side can also make them. And how can they be proven or disproven?

Sane people want this war to be over. All nonsense must stop! All killing must stop! Stop provoking either side!

[Markje]

Europe does far too little, far too late and completely ineffectually.

Europe does its part, on par with the USA (unfortunately).

Europe does not protect their shipping. Do any Europeans ship to or from
the Strait of Hormuz?

No , we use the Suez canal, which is less terrorist-prone and actually going somewhere.
If you want the strait of hormuz protected why not ask the Emirates, Qatar, Dubai to protect it. I mean its their waters.

Tell me how many Frigates are there?

None, Europe does not have ships there.

Tell me
about shipping to India, Australia,

Either through southafrica or suez. Both protected by the Dutch so its news here.

Canada, South America? The South China sea?

Sure, we do not go there because China protects the South China sea and Canada is safe without any interaction. The only problem in Canada is drugs flowing through to the USA. Europe has its own drug-problem in Rotterdam.

A couple frigates roaming around does not even remotely cover it.
You are throwing in 50 cents to pay for a daughters wedding, then
saying look I chipped in!

Hmm, you may want to read up on that. 50 cents is more like 10k of a 20k wedding.

$100 Billion for Ukraine? What percentage is that? Is it a help? Sure, it is.
Was it enough to actually keep the Ukrainians afloat? Not even remotely
close. Dementia Joe was just as bad.   

If you had read how much the USA invested here, youd quickly have found out it is about 45% and the USA does 55%.
[/quote]

My point isn't that Europeans don't do anything, but not nearly enough.

Half is not enough? And considering the backlash most presidents/gov'ts of european countries get, most of us do not consider Ukraine a worthwhile cause to support.
The only ones who want this is the leaders of the country and you already see many of the ruling parties are getting whats coming to them every elections.

My other point for the Russophiles here is that Trump has a bunch of
leverage points both carrots and sticks that Putin would take seriously.

The Russian apologists here thinking that Trump is going in to negotiate
totally feckless is a nonstarter.

To me the 'apologists' here are far more informed and realistic than you gung-ho-america-first types. You will defend any policy the USA has just cause its USA.

I do not support this war, nor Putin nor anything else. Yet I can clearly see We (as in Europe/USA) are in the wrong here.

Mark.

[Jonas!]

To me the 'apologists' here are far more informed and realistic than you gung-ho-america-first types. You will defend any policy the USA has just cause its USA.

I do not support this war, nor Putin nor anything else. Yet I can clearly see We (as in Europe/USA) are in the wrong here.

Mark.

The US needs allies and many of them are alienated or in the process of being alienated. 

US misdeeds are excused or minimalized while other nations are nailed to the cross by the 'gung-ho-america-first types'.   Nowadays the hypocrisy is noticed a lot more and discussed.  Before the internet, information was much harder to access, and these types of discussions weren't as easy to have.  30 years ago, people in the US would barely be able to converse with people around the world, and the US perspective was about all we ever knew..and most people believed it all.     

Jonas! 

Jonas! 

[2tallbill]

To me the 'apologists' here are far more informed and realistic than you gung-ho-america-first types. You will defend any policy the USA has just cause its USA.

I do not support this war, nor Putin nor anything else. Yet I can clearly see We (as in Europe/USA) are in the wrong here.

Mark.

I certainly am an American first type. I definitely do not support most of our
foreign war-making of the last 25 years (or more).

I have been doing a deep dive on the Blob/Deep State and I will for stop
pointing fingers until my deep dive leads me somewhere productive.

I appreciate you are not a Putin sycophant and especially not a war lover.
You do occasionally frame arguments for what Putin might do as if you
were.

My original thought genesis for this thread was that people are looking totally
inside the box as for what or how Trump and Putin could work out a peaceful
solution to this human hamburger death war. Neither Trump nor Putin are
inside the box thinkers.

The media discussion is about checkers strategy while the actual game
is three dimensional chess.