US Hegemony over ?

[Markje]

Interesting article on the website of rt.com

https://www.rt.com/russia/599010-zakharova-us-hegemony-over/

Maria-Z claims that the US hegemony is over now, it was visible for at least 3-4 years. After that stunning first paragraph the article deep-dives in how it came to that conclusion.

Economics

According to analytical company Statista, BRICS overtook the G7 countries’ share of the world’s total GDP in terms of purchasing power parity in 2020. As of 2023, BRICS accounted for 32% of global GDP.

and

“The SCO... covers 3 billion people – half of humanity... BRICS covers over 30% of the Earth’s land mass, 45% of the world population – some 3.5 billion people, and 33% of global GDP… 3% more than the GDP of the G7,” she stated.

(Note: SCO = Shanghai trading Cooperative thingy)

So between BRICS and SCO, they have 6.5 Billion people of the worlds 8 billion. Whereas 'USA/EU' has 1 billion.

Furthermore, all sources of 'global governance' , alternatives are being built or are already operational. SWIFT being another prime example of that.

Political

“the US has not been a world hegemon for a long time,” while “its actions in the international arena have led to the destabilization of world politics.” However, until there are significant changes in policy and ideology, Russia and its global allies have “a long struggle ahead” to form a truly polycentric world order, she said.

According to several sources, both Russia, China and Brazil are growing increasingly tired of the 'sanctions' calls which they do not support. Direct cause being that USA is pondering about new chip-making sanctions on Russia.

Technology
China meanwhile, has been making huge progress in the chip-manufactoring business. Soon they will be on-par with Intel/AMD and thus a viable alternative. Already Apple and Microsoft are creating their OS for the 'arm' family of processors, so making that compatible with China's new line of processors is not complicated at all

Military
the US Army is still a force to project power, but both Russia and China are building at high speed modernizing their armies. Combined with new technologies where China IS leading (mobile transmissions, quantum-computing and super-computing powers) they can and will soon challenge the US hegemony more directly. There will come a time soon where USA wants to attack something military and china/russia will simply say "no" and it won't happen. Syria being a prime first example and more will follow.

[Manny]

It's a wounded dinosaur. I agree with all that, and de-dollarisation is heaping inflationary pressure on the US now.

I’ve said it before: the US will go down screaming and lashing out. This is what we are seeing.

I think Ukraine will be one of the last ones we see. The recent US quiet interventions in Georgia and Hong Kong failed. They might yet cause some crap with Taiwan, but we are seeing the tail end of it. Unless they decide to throw all their chips in and start WW3 which many over the pond are itching to do.

[Markje]

It's a wounded dinosaur. I agree with all that, and de-dollarisation is heaping inflationary pressure on the US now.

Plus, the alternative to SWIFT, the chipmaking industry of its own design and being another huge economic-zone, are just a few reasons why sanctions will fail in the end. Russia meanwhile is not sitting on its hands and keeps innovating in other areas to replace the western partners. We are not seeing that yet, but my own contacts in Russia say that little has changed except a few signs above stores have changed names.

Russia can and will simply evade sanctions because anything outside of SWIFT means the NSA does not have wiretaps directly in, of course they can and should gather info by other means but its really a foot-in-mouth moment that some say, eastern powers have been waiting for.

[Jonas!]

When we (The US) were the only game in town we could pressure many countries into lopsided deals, which would then further our power and ability to coerce other countries.   With China furiously competing in every market with better pricing, we no longer can monopolize as much as we used to.  We have been largely unsuccessful in goading China into making a move that turns the world against them. 

Most the people I speak with here in the states agree with the general point that the US is in decline.  The world needs the products that are mostly produced in China, and if that remains the case, China is going to continue to accumulate more dominance....in my opinion.  If we (The US) can play a dirty trick wild card in the mix somehow and upset the apple cart we could reemerge.   

Jonas! 

[B.B.]

All the US would have to do is decouple from China, and that would be that.  Trump started to do so - China engages in "elite capture" and basically OWNS the Biden Crime Family, so Joe dances to their tune by not tossing them over the side.  So Biden has us back on the "Thucydides Trap" path, that crusty old Tw*ts like Graham Allison go on about as "inevitable" when they are not.

I think, in future, the release of COVID will be revealed to not have been an accident at all.  Trump had been decoupling and China understood that this presented an existential threat (not so much to China as a nation, but to the CCPm certainly).  It falls right into their strategy of unrestricted warfare (see the book of the same name), which focuses on non-kinetic means of weakening an adversary, thus: Elite Capture, Fentanyl, TikTok, etc. 

China, in many ways, treats Western nations (plus Russia) as tributary states; the elites get whatever special deal, but have to handle things back at home.

B/B

[andrewfi]

Many people overestimate the value of the United States to the Chinese economy. A few years ago, experts to the US were just 15% of the total and falling. At that time, the effect of a complete break in economic relations would affect the Chinese GDP by about 1%.

On the other hand, the reason the USA imports huge quantities of goods and raw materials from China is because they need to.

It's worthwhile to be aware of data before engaging in sinophobic wank fantasies.

[Markje]

The biggest problem with the trading economies USA/China is:

China's import are wannahaves (iphone, bmw, tesla, etc.)

America's imports are need-to-haves (batteries, raw materials, half-products for said teslas ....)

So If China stops importing, the public will not get a new iphone or BMW.

If America stops importing, it will suddenly find itself floating on air as the ground beneath them sinks.


Personally , I hope that all this will be decades away, because any changes here will affect everyone globally in their luxury living arrangements.

[andrewfi]

The USA makes very few of the 'want to haves' and many of those are merely US branded Chinese production.

The Chinese economy is now becoming a domestic consumer driven economy. It's no longer a case of export or starve.

[Jonas!]

It would appear the US Saudi petrodollar is coming to a close, assuming the reports are accurate.  Many years ago, I recall this being discussed as if it would be catastrophic.  It has been a couple days since the agreement expired and nothing catastrophic has happened.  It seems more like it will be a slow-motion disaster.  We have been losing influence worldwide for a while.  It seems to me the loss of the Saudi Petrodollar can only be seen as bad for the US.

 Maybe there are ongoing negotiations to renew the agreement in some form, but we (The US) are going to have to provide some value to Saudi Arabia and there is a real question of what the value would be. 


U.S.-Saudi Petrodollar Pact Ends after 50 Years

The 50-year-old petrodollar agreement between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia was just allowed to expire. The term “petrodollar” refers to the U.S. dollar’s role as the currency used for crude oil transactions on the world market. This arrangement has its roots in the 1970s when the United States and Saudi Arabia struck a deal shortly after the U.S. went off the gold standard that would go on to have far-reaching consequences for the global economy. In the history of global finance, few agreements have wielded as many benefits as the petrodollar pact did for the U.S. economy.....
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/u-s-saudi-petrodollar-pact-ends-after-50-years/ar-BB1o29sn

[B.B.]

We have been losing influence worldwide for a while.

This echoes the persistent whine of the Liberal Left, who cry about loss of influence while consistently meddling in the cultural affairs of other countries.  Orban complains about it, or rather he said, (paraphrasing) "We know the Republicans will leave us alone, but the Democrats will try to impose some trans/homo/faggot/BLM/migrant bullshit on us." (quote approximate.  )

I am fairly certain the George Floyd mural on the US Embassy in Afghanistan was one of the first things to go when the Taliban regained power. 

It seems to me the loss of the Saudi Petrodollar can only be seen as bad for the US.

Bad, but not catastrophic.  We have been discussing this on the board since at least 2011.

As of now 59% of global reserves are in dollars (for context, 20% is in Euro and 3% in Renminbi).  The dollar is used in 88% of foreign exchange transactions and 6 dozen banks just bailed on the US doll....Chinese Yuan in favor of gold and dollars.  I think we will continue to see a move toward gold in the short to medium term.

Nobody is rushing to replace dollars with RMB or YN.  China is a great friend...until it's not.  Just ask Sri Lanka. 

Maybe there are ongoing negotiations to renew the agreement in some form

I think the djinni may be out of the oil barrel.  I suspect that that non-renewal may have been a condition of Saudi accession to BRICs.

but we (The US) are going to have to provide some value to Saudi Arabia and there is a real question of what the value would be.

 

The Saudis may discover that we feel they are in need of some, um, "Freedom." 

One thing the US does well - far better than anyone else, in fact - is Hard Power.  The House of Saud has long been, in military terms, a dependency of the United States.  Europe, too, for that matter, but not nearly as bad.  Who knows what might happen to bring the Saudis about - they are currently in a proxy war with Iran, and now is a bad time to jilt your primary arms supplier. 

Another human tendency is to look at things in simplistic terms.  Our anti-American friends on the board should not be celebrating just yet, a lot more dominoes would have to fall to get the result that they hope for, much like Linus waiting for the "Great Pumpkin."

B/B

[B.B.]

It's worthwhile to be aware of data before engaging in sinophobic wank fantasies.

Well. I guess we can re-set the "Number of Days Since Andrew Thought About My Dick" counter. 

You are, unsurprisingly, missing the point.  If the USA decouples from China it doesn't just affect Chinese exports to America.  It affects all Chinese exports of products manufactured for American companies.  For example, if Apple gets told "politely suggested" to move its manufacturing out of China, that affects ALL of the Apple products manufactured there, whether they are exported to the USA or not. 

That is simply an example; I am not suggesting the process would be quick, easy or, ultimately, even desirable.  It would be far better if China's thinking - and Putin's for that matter - moved from the 18th Century into the 21st. 

B/B

[Manny]

The Saudis may discover that we feel they are in need of some, um, "Freedom." 

I rather think those days have gone. 

[andrewfi]

bb, i had forgotten nothing. Go do the learning about how the Chinese economy actually works, how it is structured and how it compares to the USAian economy.

A complete break is unlikely because the US cannot afford it. But it'd not be an insoluble issue for China were it to happen. That's a very important difference. On the one side, a practical impossibility, on the other a short term inconvenience.

[Jonas!]

This echoes the persistent whine of the Liberal Left, who cry about loss of influence while consistently meddling in the cultural affairs of other countries.

Seems to me it isn't a 'liberal left' only issue.  Democrat or Republican actions have been about the same.  The US in general is and has been losing influence.  We no longer have many of the tools to force adherence.

The Saudis may discover that we feel they are in need of some, um, "Freedom." 
 

I don't think we can pull that one off.  They are wealthy, have needed resources for the world, and have a lot of amigos.  We aren't any position to force 'freedom' on them.

One thing the US does well - far better than anyone else, in fact - is Hard Power.  The House of Saud has long been, in military terms, a dependency of the United States.  Europe, too, for that matter, but not nearly as bad.  Who knows what might happen to bring the Saudis about - they are currently in a proxy war with Iran, and now is a bad time to jilt your primary arms supplier. 

As the US fades from the scene Saudi Arabia and Iran may find they have a lot of mutual interests.  The last thing we (The US) want to see is them become allies of sorts.  What are we going to provide Saudi Arabia in return (That other nations can't) if they were to agree to continue to use the petrodollar? 

Jonas! 

[B.B.]

I rather think those days have gone. 

I was being facetious.  But Europeans do not understand the importance of hard power.

A complete break is unlikely because the US cannot afford it. But it'd not be an insoluble issue for China were it to happen. That's a very important difference. On the one side, a practical impossibility, on the other a short term inconvenience.

You'd be surprised.  There would be pain points on both sides. As I indicated, I do not think it likely, nor desirable.  My point was there are other outcomes besides what is in your tunnel vision based on your anti-Americanism.  But hey, you do you.

Seems to me it isn't a 'liberal left' only issue.  Democrat or Republican actions have been about the same.  The US in general is and has been losing influence.  We no longer have many of the tools to force adherence.

Primarily, it is, as Orban indicated.  He is not alone in this view, I am sure.

I don't think we can pull that one off.  They are wealthy, have needed resources for the world, and have a lot of amigos.  We aren't any position to force 'freedom' on them.

First, I was being facetious, but don't get it twisted; we absolutely could.  The House of Saud is a dependency, when it comes to military affairs.

As the US fades from the scene Saudi Arabia and Iran may find they have a lot of mutual interests.

Wow.  You really don't know what you don't know.

  The last thing we (The US) want to see is them become allies of sorts. 

That's not going to happen.  FR, go do some reading. 

What are we going to provide Saudi Arabia in return (That other nations can't) if they were to agree to continue to use the petrodollar? 

The Petrodollar ship has sailed, although SA will continue to price our purchases in dollars.

It's not a question of how much of this or that they import and it whether it is replaceable, it is more about the nature of the relationship (which was bungled first by Obama and then, spectacularly, by Biden).  They remain a military dependency on the USA.  Beware of simple solutions to complex problems.  The petrodollar agreement served us well, and demonstrates the brilliance of Nixon and Kissinger.  We will go forward into the future from here and the future is nothing to be afraid of. 

B/B

[Jonas!]

That's not going to happen.  FR, go do some reading. 
 

I did do some reading.   China orchestrated a meeting of minds between the two nations last year.  If China finds it in their interests that these two nations get along better, nowadays they have more pull than we (The US) does.  If that is the case these rivals may see eye to eye on more issues.  They don't have to be best friends, but if their aligned interests are not in US interests, we won't be able to do much about it.   

Iran and Saudi Arabia agree to resume ties in talks brokered by China
Iran and Saudi Arabia agreed on Friday to re-establish relations after years of hostility that had threatened stability and security in the Gulf and helped fuel conflicts in the Middle East from Yemen to Syria.
The deal, brokered by China, was announced after four days of previously undisclosed talks in Beijing between top security officials from the two rival Middle East powers.
Tehran and Riyadh agreed to resume diplomatic relations and re-open embassies within two months, according to a statement issued by Iran, Saudi Arabia and China. "The agreement includes.....


   https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-saudi-arabia-agree-resume-ties-re-open-embassies-iranian-state-media-2023-03-10/   

First, I was being facetious, but don't get it twisted; we absolutely could.  The House of Saud is a dependency, when it comes to military affairs.

Could is a very broad term.   Of course we COULD nuke them, COULD attempt to invade them, COULD try to put an embargo on them.  None of these things is at all likely...so trying to 'force freedom' on them isn't a reasonable possibility.  If Saudi Arabia were concerned about that they wouldn't be in the process of ditching the petrodollar. It seems to me our hands are tied.   What lever can we pull with them to make them bend to our will? 

Jonas!

[2tallbill]

Could is a very broad term.   Of course we COULD nuke them, COULD attempt to invade them, COULD try to put an embargo on them.  None of these things is at all likely...so trying to 'force freedom' on them isn't a reasonable possibility.  If Saudi Arabia were concerned about that they wouldn't be in the process of ditching the petrodollar. It seems to me our hands are tied.   What lever can we pull with them to make them bend to our will? 

Jonas!

If Iran wanted Saudi Oil, they could take it. Nobody in the region would or could stop them.
Saudi Arabia is indefensible. Any modern army can just drive across it and take it. The
Shia's hate, hate, hate, hate the Sunni's. The Sunni and Shiite hate dates back to the
Prophet Muhammad's death in 632 A.D. Israel and Sunni's are brothers compared to
their hate for each other. Why did the Saudi's agree to anything with Israel?

The China peace pipe thing between Iran and the Saudi's is just a smoke screen. Anyone
who believes that China can broker a peace in a 1300 year holy war is both naive and
ignorant of history.

What pray tell is the ONLY reason that Iran doesn't invade, take Saudi's oil, and 
kill every Sunni heretic? Hint, it's not because Islam is the religion of Peace.

[Jonas!]

If Iran wanted Saudi Oil, they could take it. Nobody in the region would or could stop them.
Saudi Arabia is indefensible. Any modern army can just drive across it and take it. The
Shia's hate, hate, hate, hate the Sunni's. The Sunni and Shiite hate dates back to the
Prophet Muhammad's death in 632 A.D. Israel and Sunni's are brothers compared to
their hate for each other. Why did the Saudi's agree to anything with Israel?

The China peace pipe thing between Iran and the Saudi's is just a smoke screen. Anyone
who believes that China can broker a peace in a 1300 year holy war is both naive and
ignorant of history.
 

I believe very little of about this 'hate hate hate' mantra which often is disseminated often through right wing media.  The truth is both Iran and Saudi Arabia know who is stirring the pot.   Below is a quote from the leaders themselves saying as such...with the key sentences highlighted.  This type of statement is probably a reason why Ahmadinejad was demonized by the US. 

It is in US interests to keep them divided, but they are aware of this, and now that the US is no longer the only prime mover, the nations are freer to do what is in their best interests.  China's seems to think it is in it's own interest to bring the nations together in a more peaceful coexistence.    Their best interest isn't our best interest, so I expect we will see what we can do to gum up the works.
 
In the US it is strange how China is the 'bad guy' for attempting to bring the nations together and we (The US) are the 'good guys' for trying to keep them divided and warring. 

Saudi–Iran summit
In a milestone for the two countries' relations, on 3 March 2007 King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad held an extraordinary summit meeting. They displayed mutual warmth with hugs and smiles for cameras and promised "a thaw in relations between the two regional powers but stopped short of agreeing on any concrete plans to tackle the escalating sectarian and political crises throughout the Middle East."[308]

On his return to Tehran, Ahmadinejad declared that:

Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are aware of the enemies' conspiracies. We decided to take measures to confront such plots. Hopefully, this will strengthen Muslim countries against oppressive pressure by the imperialist front.[308]

Saudi officials had no comment about Ahmadinejad's statements, but the Saudi official government news agency did say:

The two leaders affirmed that the greatest danger presently threatening the Islamic nation is the attempt to fuel the fire of strife between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, and that efforts must concentrate on countering these attempts and closing ranks.[309]

Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud bin Faisal bin Abdul-Aziz said:

The two parties have agreed to stop any attempt aimed at spreading sectarian strife in the region.[310]

[2tallbill]

I believe very little of about this 'hate hate hate' mantra which often is disseminated often through right wing media.  The truth is both Iran and Saudi Arabia know who is stirring the pot.   Below is a quote from the leaders themselves saying as such...with the key sentences highlighted.  This type of statement is probably a reason why Ahmadinejad was demonized by the US. 

It is in US interests to keep them divided, but they are aware of this, and now that the US is no longer the only prime mover, the nations are freer to do what is in their best interests.  China's seems to think it is in it's own interest to bring the nations together in a more peaceful coexistence.    Their best interest isn't our best interest, so I expect we will see what we can do to gum up the works.
 
In the US it is strange how China is the 'bad guy' for attempting to bring the nations together and we (The US) are the 'good guys' for trying to keep them divided and warring. 

Saudi–Iran summit
In a milestone for the two countries' relations, on 3 March 2007 King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad held an extraordinary summit meeting. They displayed mutual warmth with hugs and smiles for cameras and promised "a thaw in relations between the two regional powers but stopped short of agreeing on any concrete plans to tackle the escalating sectarian and political crises throughout the Middle East."[308]

On his return to Tehran, Ahmadinejad declared that:

Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are aware of the enemies' conspiracies. We decided to take measures to confront such plots. Hopefully, this will strengthen Muslim countries against oppressive pressure by the imperialist front.[308]

Saudi officials had no comment about Ahmadinejad's statements, but the Saudi official government news agency did say:

The two leaders affirmed that the greatest danger presently threatening the Islamic nation is the attempt to fuel the fire of strife between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, and that efforts must concentrate on countering these attempts and closing ranks.[309]

Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud bin Faisal bin Abdul-Aziz said:

The two parties have agreed to stop any attempt aimed at spreading sectarian strife in the region.[310]

Hahahahahaha!

I did not know how little you know. Blame the right wing media if it makes you less
insecure about you lack of education about history. You are both unable and unwilling
to back up anything you say.

For others less ignorant who want to learn more
Look into the Iran vs Iraq war, Safavid dynasty vs Ottomans, Wahhabism vs Shia Islam,

[Jonas!]

I believe very little of about this 'hate hate hate' mantra which often is disseminated often through right wing media.  The truth is both Iran and Saudi Arabia know who is stirring the pot.   Below is a quote from the leaders themselves saying as such...with the key sentences highlighted.  This type of statement is probably a reason why Ahmadinejad was demonized by the US. 

It is in US interests to keep them divided, but they are aware of this, and now that the US is no longer the only prime mover, the nations are freer to do what is in their best interests.  China's seems to think it is in it's own interest to bring the nations together in a more peaceful coexistence.    Their best interest isn't our best interest, so I expect we will see what we can do to gum up the works.
 
In the US it is strange how China is the 'bad guy' for attempting to bring the nations together and we (The US) are the 'good guys' for trying to keep them divided and warring. 

Saudi–Iran summit
In a milestone for the two countries' relations, on 3 March 2007 King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad held an extraordinary summit meeting. They displayed mutual warmth with hugs and smiles for cameras and promised "a thaw in relations between the two regional powers but stopped short of agreeing on any concrete plans to tackle the escalating sectarian and political crises throughout the Middle East."[308]

On his return to Tehran, Ahmadinejad declared that:

Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are aware of the enemies' conspiracies. We decided to take measures to confront such plots. Hopefully, this will strengthen Muslim countries against oppressive pressure by the imperialist front.[308]

Saudi officials had no comment about Ahmadinejad's statements, but the Saudi official government news agency did say:

The two leaders affirmed that the greatest danger presently threatening the Islamic nation is the attempt to fuel the fire of strife between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, and that efforts must concentrate on countering these attempts and closing ranks.[309]

Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud bin Faisal bin Abdul-Aziz said:

The two parties have agreed to stop any attempt aimed at spreading sectarian strife in the region.[310]

Hahahahahaha!

I did not know how little you know. Blame the right wing media if it makes you less
insecure about you lack of education about history. You are both unable and unwilling
to back up anything you say.

For others less ignorant who want to learn more
Look into the Iran vs Iraq war, Safavid dynasty vs Ottomans, Wahhabism vs Shia Islam,

Fake laugh of course...when angry.   

I don't think you are near as smart or educated as you believe yourself to be.  Strict adherence to too much of your right-wing media...not that left wing media is much better.   

I hear a lot of right-wing pundits playing up the 'hate' like you are now parroting...sowing discord being the objective.  Old hat!   

Reality is a bit different...eventually you will learn you have been duped and slowly change course as you always do.

THE MAIN POINT:
 China's growing influence will produce different outcomes than the fading US influence has.   Those outcomes aren't going to be favorable to US interests, but for most others it likely will be.  Not a lot the US can do about it really...although we can try to seize assets like we currently doing with Russia. 



I note you failed to address the view other than pretend you have some superior knowledge...normal protocol for you when stumped. 

Jonas! 

[Texan77]

The biggest problem with the trading economies USA/China is:

China's import are wannahaves (iphone, bmw, tesla, etc.)

America's imports are need-to-haves (batteries, raw materials, half-products for said teslas ....)

So If China stops importing, the public will not get a new iphone or BMW.

If America stops importing, it will suddenly find itself floating on air as the ground beneath them sinks.


Personally , I hope that all this will be decades away, because any changes here will affect everyone globally in their luxury living arrangements.

China imports most of their raw materials from elsewhere. The main reason we import any raw material that China does produce is they produce them with little concern for the environment, so they are cheaper not that we cannot produce them or find them elsewhere. China has one of the most polluted ground water and rivers in the world and will be that way for many centuries. Our reducing imports from China is going to happen in a big way. The main item we need from China is rare earth metals. We have found replacements deposits for them that we can domestically produce them here and in Canada. The other item is steel. WE can produce it here it is China dumped steel on USA market to kill domestical producers. WE can produce it again if we need to.

[B.B.]

I did not know how little you know.

I know right?

For those intent on a particular negative result for America - very often a disease of the left - they have to START from that conclusion, and work backwards with all of the cards being dealt in a certain order, whether that makes sense or not.

It's like trying to have a rational conversation with about the Atomic Bombings with someone who cannot fathom their necessity.  They start from "No Nukes" and then talk about the various "surrenders" (which were not offered until after the Nagasaki bombing), then ignore the necessity for invasion of starvation that would have killed *more* people than died in the bombings but somehow the Japanese - which had not fought an offensive battles since Midway - were going to "magically surrender" a few days later (of which there was zero evidence.)

B/B

[Jonas!]

I did not know how little you know.

I know right?

For those intent on a particular negative result for America - very often a disease of the left - they have to START from that conclusion, and work backwards with all of the cards being dealt in a certain order, whether that makes sense or not.

It's like trying to have a rational conversation with about the Atomic Bombings with someone who cannot fathom their necessity.  They start from "No Nukes" and then talk about the various "surrenders" (which were not offered until after the Nagasaki bombing), then ignore the necessity for invasion of starvation that would have killed *more* people than died in the bombings but somehow the Japanese - which had not fought an offensive battles since Midway - were going to "magically surrender" a few days later (of which there was zero evidence.)

B/B

It isn't unnoticed that neither of you are able to address the legit issue/questions so y'all go off on senseless tangents.   


1.  Saudi Arabia appears to be abandoning the petrodollar. 
2.  The US is unable to bring 'freedom' to Saudi Arabia.   The consequences would be too great.
3.  China has more pull in the region now and is gaining more all the time, at our (US) expense. 
4.  China has made efforts to bring Saudi Arabia and Iran together...and there appears to be some progress.  A unified Iran/Saudi Arabia isn't in US interests. The upthread quote (reply 17) indicates both nations see what the US is/has been attempting to do. 
5.  Nobody has stated what levers the US can pull to force Saudi Arabia to advance our (US) interests.   
6    The two posters want to pretend these are ignorant statements, and discussion points.  They would rather talk in platitudes and jerk each other off, than address the issue.   
Jonas!

[andrewfi]

Other than military related 'levers' the USA has nothing. Hasn't for quite some time. After all there's a reason why those bases exist. They are part of the hammer that solves every problem.

Military enforces political outcomes.
Military enforces trade outcomes.
Military enforces economic outcomes.

It does not always have to be used, but it always must be visible.

Now, Russia and China are demonstrating another path. And what does the US do? They send off Anthony Blinken to talk to the Saudis about a 'new' security deal. First, second, and last - military.

If the only tool in the toolbox is a hammer then every solution requires a 🔨

[2tallbill]

So between BRICS and SCO, they have 6.5 Billion people of the worlds 8 billion. Whereas 'USA/EU' has 1 billion.

What percentage of those 6.5 billion use dung for cooking or for heat?
What percentage live in abject poverty?
What percentage have a corrupt legal system?
What percentage must use bribes to get ordinary things done?
Over 60% of the India's population does not have access to indoor plumbing

Most BRICS countries can't take of simple functions required for first world people.
In Brazil 35 million people lack access to drinking water