Prigozhin Reported Dead

[B.B.]

Looking at the passenger list on the plane, it seems to me that it's rather uncertain this came from the top of Russia's government. Would Russia want all those blokes gone?

So 2 months to the day after he attempts a coup against Putin and his plane gets bombed and you think it's some sort of coincidence?

Who else might have a motive to kill those specific people? Ukraine? The US?

Or Putin.  He has a pretty strong motive.  If there is evidence to the contrary, I will ofc listen to it.

it seems a messy and public way to do it. They could have bumped him off quietly without such a dramatic event that was sure to get the attention of the world's media.

Sure.  But so does sticking someone with radioactive poison.  Putin may not WANT it to be "quiet".  He may have wanted to issue a warning to others.

More the kind of event an enemy of Russia might engineer knowing the MSM will be howling "Putin did it" right on cue.

Hmm.  A wise friend of mine thought this about it:

I think it's a given that if you challenge Putin's authority, and fail, there's only one outcome. He will have known that.

I think he was onto something. 

B/B

[Bodine]

So, Manny blaming the USA as being worse to cover up for the Russian government's crimes.

It was a simple question, again: Do you agonise about the millions of innocent people the US has killed all over the world? Or the Clinton body bags? Or the innocent people in Donbass killed by US arms and funding since 2014?

You might be referring to Iraq in the ‘90s Manny if you’re naming Clinton. FWIW, its ‘only’ 500,000 children ( presumably they’re innocent I would think) and according to Ms Albright, same madam who escorted Tymoshenko out of jail during the 2014 coup, that “it’s worth it.” Worth it whom, who knows but we’re the US, we can do anything, anytime, everywhere and all at once.

There’s only 120,000 deaths registered in the Balkan war after we instigated that war after arming the KLA. You’re going to have to search for the other 380,000 on your own to complete the tally. No registry of death count in Somalia and Haiti.

You can start with a book titled: The Clinton Wars.

[AJ]

Manny ,
your replies often start with a bucket load of whataboutism.

It's pathetic.Want to talk about the British empires bloody past?
You want to be edgy woth Americans?
,then try harder.
Bring up the U.S civil war and which side losses we lamented .

Cant yet admit  Utkin and his SS tattoos that russian officials used to identify his body was a neo nazi extremist in donbas in 14? No tears for those he killed,or condemnation for puti giving him medals for it?
Just keep  ignoring facts or going sideways bringing up Mao Zedong killed people too and did you cry for them?

Now, while readily stating earlier Prigozhins actions agaisnt Puti sealed his own fate ,
 you drift 180° to implicate ukraine or the u.s. on the downing of a private mercenary jet between Moscow and st pete.
🤣

If the AFU could do it ,they would have done it the many times putis boy was a serious threat,not after he stirred unrest,shot down russian military planes  ,and was nuetered.

The u.s.? I'll leave that as a possibility,but a very very unlikely one.

Not because it has some moral.high ground as you so enjoy pointing out
( despite uk being all in on the same shannanigans)
But because the reward isnt worthwhile

Prigozhin was just as good alive or dead to messing with perceptions of Russia in the media.

His role in Africa ,which WOULD be seen as worth taking him.out for,
 had just radically diminished  days prior as russian officials had been in several African nations negotiating reolacing wagner pmc with RF ,or as you like to csll them since.2014 *little green men on holiday*

As a loose cannon within  Russia ( or belarus)
Prigozhin had already shown his danger to your master stategist and you know it.

I'll concede that  Prigozhin had made serious enemies in Shoigui and Big G, so there is the outside chance FSB or RF acted on thier own.

[AJ]

There was a hostess, pilot and copilot who were likely just doing their job. All dead now.

They had just returned from Africa where Wagner is an import part of Russia's foreign policy. So, the USA is very interested if he is really dead or not. Markje your wife maybe right about this one. The question here is how much this will cost Russia's foreign policy in Africa?

The Ukrainians were really happy to see Wagner forces gone.

They were operating a jet owned by wagner pmc and were  in wagners employ.

Innocent is a stretch.

Crew seldom stays with the same jet. This was a business jet, and they take different passengers to different places the crew changes planes often. They usually work for a company that supplies crews for jets like this. Even if they employed full time by Wagner there were just a pilot, copilot and hostess who found a job. The five other guys were security guards Wagner hired. Who convicted them of anything. No body want to talk about the other people that got killed.

Two months ago, these guys were all Russian Heros. The security guards might have been helpful in capturing territory in Ukraine. At their level they likely had little to do with planning or anything else Wagner did that upset Putin or the Russian powers to be. Look how easy it is to say they needed to die. That what being around and reading Russian NAZIs propaganda does to a person. Why could they not wait until the Jet landed and not kill these people and arrest them if they did anything and try them for their crimes.

Texan.
It os my understanfing that it  was a jet owned and operated by wagner pmc,one of two they owned specifically for Transport of Prigozhin and the higher ups of wagner.pmc


If you think Prigozhin, a wealthy enough man to run an large mercenary  army,that had its own helicoptors,fighter jets, AA ,tanks,etc etc, and able to mutiny against the kremlin,was on a plane and crew booked randomly  for business travel ,i think you are mistaken.

Im certainly open to you proving that.

But not from.your understandimg of how these crews are booked in western countries by business.
I have close friends that are those crews.

However Ill contend they dont get booked to fly the head of the largest private military group in the.world ,especially one in serious political.trouble and in grave danger.

I think even that drunk Prigozhin who owned the plane would not randomly book.its crew. Im am certain its a trusted crew( of maybe a couple of  crews)  that flew Progozhin often and knew who their passenger was quite well.

Now to your point,i never said they deserved to die.
I dont think Prigozhin or Putl deserve to die.
I merely.stated innocent was a stretch.


Ill not shed tears for anyone in Prigozhins employ.

The are mercenaries, or working for and in the support of mercenaries.Cash the check from.wagner pmc,
( or blackwater pmc.  just for manny)
Youre down with cashing out, for blood, no empathy

My empathy level for anyone of sound mind and body whose own choices impact them poorly is pretty low.
🤷‍♂️

[rosco]

Manny ,
your replies often start with a bucket load of whataboutism.

It's pathetic.Want to talk about the British empires bloody past?
You want to be edgy woth Americans?
,then try harder.
Bring up the U.S civil war and which side losses we lamented .

Wide of the mark once again AJ. Manny isn't the one complaining about the collateral damage. Tex was whilst being blissfuly ignorant and silent on the stuff the west does.

You cant bleat about the 3 aircrew on Prigozhin's plane and foul mouth the Russian's yet stay silent when we kill close to a million innocent folks since the Iraq days. 

That's literally the point. 

[2tallbill]

Strictly speculation on my part, but what if it isn't Putin?

Nobody in the Russian Federation has the power/authority/testicles to shoot
down a jet INSIDE the Russian Federation unless the action is blessed by
Putin.

Russia would blatently deny Saturday follows Friday just to spite the rest of the
world. Six years later they would proclaim the same thing and many here would
agree with the Russian statement then engage in six pages of cyber debate about
it never backing down.

[2tallbill]

Strictly speculation on my part, but what if it isn't Putin?

I thought of 1 other option.

Prigozhin loaded up the plane and blew it up himself so he could be publicly dead.
He certainly has no problem letting a few of his troops die in a crash to save himself.
 
A stinger wouldn't work they only go up to 10,000 ft or so unless they were just
taking off.

[rosco]

Prigozhin loaded up the plane and blew it up himself so he could be publicly dead.

And then disappeared alive so it removed him from the equation. Wild I know but why not? 

[AJ]

Manny ,
your replies often start with a bucket load of whataboutism.

It's pathetic.Want to talk about the British empires bloody past?
You want to be edgy woth Americans?
,then try harder.
Bring up the U.S civil war and which side losses we lamented .

Wide of the mark once again AJ. Manny isn't the one complaining about the collateral damage. Tex was whilst being blissfuly ignorant and silent on the stuff the west does.

You cant bleat about the 3 aircrew on Prigozhin's plane and foul mouth the Russian's yet stay silent when we kill close to a million innocent folks since the Iraq days. 

That's literally the point. 

Same ol'.

I never bleated about them, they are collatoral damage that were cashing checks from.wagner pmc.

Yeah i know manny was responding to tex, just like you are responding to me

Manny points to deaths in donbas all along, always ignoring it takes two to tango and the deep involvement of russian forces there.

So brought up as example in whatever context,it goes right back to ignoring first blood in donbas was unarmed civilians executed in Girkins orders.
( from his couch in russia)
All for attempting to raise a ukrainian flag,in ukraine.( not in donetsk by the way)
They were not killed by pro russian ukrainians upset at maiden. They were killed by Russian goons on  FSB officer Girkins orders right off his return from crimia.

So yeah whataboutism generally is bullocks and you and manny  attempting to use it to point out hypocricy while indignant that your own is shown is merely amusing.

Gorzny is worse or better than   kosovo?
Its silly bs from you both.

But to play along ,how many tanks did russia destroy in grozny down town attack? O
How many people were killed in the hospital and downtown market place?
* crickets* ,about 30.
How many military servicemen, zero

How many tanks destroyed by nato in kosovo attack(s) ? 14
Servicemen roughly 1000


Both had civilian casualties and neither should have neen done.


Many died in iraq.
Yeap. As far as civilian causulties  they were by far mostly internal conflicts ,shortages of supplies and  shortages of good healthcare from.that.
This continued propaganda that it was u.s military personel shooting and  bombing millions of civilians is simply fairy tale.
Isolated incidents certainly occured,the bulk of the casualties were still iraqi on iraqi.




 Your attempted gatekeeping is wide of the mark.
Mannys a big boy, he can reply.
He has ignored utkin the entire time as its inconveinient .

I'll bring up the entire seperatist military movement founded , funded,  and led by russian neo nazis, anytime its ignored,because its relevent to this conflict.
Unlike whether u.s involvement in iraq after it invaded kuwait is.
Or British bloody involvement in the entire world is.

[AJ]

Strictly speculation on my part, but what if it isn't Putin?

I thought of 1 other option.

Prigozhin loaded up the plane and blew it up himself so he could be publicly dead.
He certainly has no problem letting a few of his troops die in a crash to save himself.
 
A stinger wouldn't work they only go up to 10,000 ft or so unless they were just
taking off.

There was a second wagner jet trailing the first.
It returned to.moscow and allegedly by russian accounts ,.the passengers were arrested.


So he could have been on that one.

As far as why it crashed,
 the initial video, intial RF AA claims to have shot it down, ( before the story was changed 5 times) and the dispersion pattern of shrapnal holes across the one wing and fuselade ,would  seem.to indicate an AA proximity missle doing exactly what they do purposely  ,detonate before impact.

Keep in mind one of the initial Russian official stories was it was shot  down by their local and prevalent AA batteries die to the plane not sending the
correct squaks to identify.itself  .
There had been drone attsckx prior and the aa crew shot it down thinking its a drone .

I believe thats what happened.
I dont believe the part about no commercial flight  squaks or misidentifucation .

Ive zero idea if Prigozhin was on board despite russia claiming his body was identified.

Because russia spits out 15 stories, clouds any possibility of sorting out the actual truth.
Thats the entire point of most propaganda

[Contrarian]

And now he shows up alive in Africa??

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wagner-boss-prigozhin-resourfaces-dismisses-reports-of-his-elimination-in-new-video/ar-AA1g2Ryb?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=e9283d951d0f4cc4a86122f19823d41a&ei=42

[AvHdB]

And now he shows up alive in Africa??

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wagner-boss-prigozhin-resourfaces-dismisses-reports-of-his-elimination-in-new-video/ar-AA1g2Ryb?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=e9283d951d0f4cc4a86122f19823d41a&ei=42

Wonder if they will next show a video of Elvis P. alive?

[rosco]

And now he shows up alive in Africa??

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wagner-boss-prigozhin-resourfaces-dismisses-reports-of-his-elimination-in-new-video/ar-AA1g2Ryb?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=e9283d951d0f4cc4a86122f19823d41a&ei=42

Wonder if they will next show a video of Elvis P. alive?

Yea the secret to comedy is timing.

Unfortunately for him, it appears Prigozhin thought he'd actually be safe after his 'little stunt'. Barring an unfortunate bird strike or a ridiculously unlucky technical fault, he got what was coming to him. Russia must have been very convincing when they told him that they'll work it through together