History of the Conflict in Donbas

[Contrarian]

How many people knew that Donetsk was founded by Welsh industrialist John Hughes? I found the link to this story on the profile of mhr7.


The sign reads: "We're already full of promises, we want to eat! Protest in Kiev, 1991.


https://meduza.io/en/feature/2023/02/17/a-brief-history-of-donbas-separatism

[BC]

Interesting info.

Thanks, Contrarian.

[AvHdB]

While I am not a fan of long articles and this one paints a vivid picture of Putin’s methods and background to this quagmire.

Thank you.

[dorbradavid]

How many people knew that Donetsk was founded by Welsh industrialist John Hughes? I found the link to this story on the profile of mhr7.


The sign reads: "We're already full of promises, we want to eat! Protest in Kiev, 1991.


https://meduza.io/en/feature/2023/02/17/a-brief-history-of-donbas-separatism

Interesting article. Thank you. 

[andrewfi]

That is possibly an interesting article; I might give it a read; however, I would caution anyone reading it that it gets off to a bad start with the following words:

Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022, but the armed conflict started eight years earlier when pro-Russian separatists in the Donbas tried, with Moscow’s support, to secede from the rest of the country.

This is factually incorrect. While Moscow DID give support to the Crimean secession, they did not do so in the Donbas region. This was because, in significant part, opinion polling in the region did not show the overwhelming support for secession that was present in Crimea. The seperatist movements (there were several at the time) tried to persuade Moscow to support referenda and their expected positive outcomes, but Moscow refused.

Later, as we recall, the Minsk agreements between the Kiev government and the LPR and DPR were all predicated upon the Donbas region remaining a part of Ukraine. Secession was NOT a part of the agreements made between the separatist movements, down to two by this time, even though the leaders of the LPR and DPR very much wanted to leave the Ukrainian system. It took quite a lot of strong-arming by Moscow for the LPR and DPR leaderships to agree to the Minsk accords.

Given that start to the article, I would see the interest of the article based, at least in part, on the alternate history presentation in which we will be engaged.

Oh, and yes, I did know about the involvement of John Hughes in the waybackwhen.

[dorbradavid]

That is possibly an interesting article; I might give it a read; however, I would caution anyone reading it that it gets off to a bad start with the following words:

Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022, but the armed conflict started eight years earlier when pro-Russian separatists in the Donbas tried, with Moscow’s support, to secede from the rest of the country.

This is factually incorrect. While Moscow DID give support to the Crimean secession, they did not do so in the Donbas region. This was because, in significant part, opinion polling in the region did not show the overwhelming support for secession that was present in Crimea. The seperatist movements (there were several at the time) tried to persuade Moscow to support referenda and their expected positive outcomes, but Moscow refused.

Later, as we recall, the Minsk agreements between the Kiev government and the LPR and DPR were all predicated upon the Donbas region remaining a part of Ukraine. Secession was NOT a part of the agreements made between the separatist movements, down to two by this time, even though the leaders of the LPR and DPR very much wanted to leave the Ukrainian system. It took quite a lot of strong-arming by Moscow for the LPR and DPR leaderships to agree to the Minsk accords.

Given that start to the article, I would see the interest of the article based, at least in part, on the alternate history presentation in which we will be engaged.

Oh, and yes, I did know about the involvement of John Hughes in the waybackwhen.

Nice point.

To further muddy the waters, I was on the ground in Kiev in 2005-6 during the first "Orange Revolution" when Yushenko replaced Yanukovitch and the problems with the Russian-speaking eastern regions started. The people around Yushenko apparently that it "was thier turn" and began makeing like more difficult for the Donbass region. Lots of blame to go around. 

[andrewfi]

Yeah, I skimmed through the article. It was clearly written from a defined point of view. I didn't quickly notice any more clear errors of fact, but then, I don't pretend to be an expert on Ukrainian history. However, the perspective taken in terms of matters of fact ran contrary to my understanding back in the day, some of which preceded the Orange Revolution, stuff I was covering as part of my thesis work in the very early 21st century.

It looks as though, on the whole, one might not quibble over matters of fact, however the framing of them seems not to always agree with contemporaneous understanding or broader knowledge. But that's partly how propaganda works. Create an agreed narrative that replaces that which existed at the time.

For example, presenting the Orange Revolution as a grass roots movement, when we now know it was an externally organised process that became the template for virtually identical processes in other countries even down to logos and insignias.

[dorbradavid]

I don't pretend to be an expert on Ukrainian history. However, the perspective taken in terms of matters of fact ran contrary to my understanding back in the day, some of which preceded the Orange Revolution, stuff I was covering as part of my thesis work in the very early 21st century.

Why not? Several people here do.