Setting the Record Straight; About Ukraine

[Wiz]

Setting the Record Straight!
Stuff You Should Know About Ukraine

On February 16, 2022, a full week before Putin sent combat troops into Ukraine, the Ukrainian Army began the heavy bombardment of the area (in east Ukraine) occupied by mainly ethnic Russians. Officials from the Observer Mission of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) were located in the vicinity at the time and kept a record of the shelling as it took place. What the OSCE discovered was that the bombardment dramatically intensified as the week went on until it reached a peak on February 19, when a total of 2,026 artillery strikes were recorded. Keep in mind, the Ukrainian Army was, in fact, shelling civilian areas along the Line of Contact that were occupied by other Ukrainians.

We want to emphasize that the officials from the OSCE were operating in their professional capacity gathering first-hand evidence of shelling in the area. What their data shows is that Ukrainian Forces were bombing and killing their own people. This has all been documented and has not been challenged.

So, the question we must all ask ourselves is this: Is the bombardment and slaughter of one’s own people an ‘act of war’?

Read the full article By Mike Whitney 6 Feb 2023
https://www.globalresearch.ca/
setting-the-record-straight-stuff-you-should-know-about-ukraine/5807548

[rosco]

Our western leaders are now in so deep that it doesn't really matter if they were actively involved in creating the theatre for conflict or if they just went along with the show. Either way, a U turn would make them look weak so they need to plough on and support Ukraine, whatever it takes.

I just can't see how this get's wrapped up in any kind of final conclusive peace agreement. Mistrust, regime change and brutal conflict is the result of it all and it's very very messy.

The atrocities Wiz mentions above can't be ignored by any sane honest person but it is being conveniently silenced in the west. A balanced person would ask why this is so? A blind person would excuse it because Putin is bad.

[Texan77]

I just can't see how this get's wrapped up in any kind of final conclusive peace agreement. Mistrust, regime change and brutal conflict is the result of it all and it's very very messy.

Russia ends up being finically weaken to where they stop the war. When that happens this all ends.

[rosco]

I just can't see how this get's wrapped up in any kind of final conclusive peace agreement. Mistrust, regime change and brutal conflict is the result of it all and it's very very messy.

Russia ends up being finically weaken to where they stop the war. When that happens this all ends.

I was talking about real life scenarios Tex but nice to see you swerving the inconvenient truths above.

[Bodine]

...We want to emphasize that the officials from the OSCE were operating in their professional capacity gathering first-hand evidence of shelling in the area. What their data shows is that Ukrainian Forces were bombing and killing their own people. This has all been documented and has not been challenged....

Interesting. I didn't know this.

Reuters reported on February 19, 2022: "It put the total number of ceasefire violations on Friday at more than 1,500 compared with 870 the day before when monitors reported 654 explosions.".

5 days before Russia began their invasion.

[Bodine]

Our western leaders are now in so deep that it doesn't really matter if they were actively involved in creating the theatre for conflict or if they just went along with the show. Either way, a U turn would make them look weak so they need to plough on and support Ukraine, whatever it takes.

Sad, isn't it?

To believe the US/West have no blood in their hands for every dead person in this stupid war is being outright callously ignorant.

I remember the first two days after Russia's invasion, wifey and I were at rallies in west Hollywood and the westside Federal bldg. under the banner "I'm with Ukraine". LMAO!

Then the US all but made it obvious its total complicity with its murderous ambitions.

[Texan77]

I just can't see how this get's wrapped up in any kind of final conclusive peace agreement. Mistrust, regime change and brutal conflict is the result of it all and it's very very messy.

Russia ends up being finically weaken to where they stop the war. When that happens this all ends.

I was talking about real life scenarios Tex but nice to see you swerving the inconvenient truths above.

The real inconvenient truth is when the war is over Russia will not have enough money to maintain its infrastructure or to do maintenance on its mining sectors. Oil well will produce less from lack of maintenance. Gas will be harder for Russia to find buyers. Roads in Russia will get in worse shape than they are now. Medical care will decline. Retirement benefits will buy much less. You do not realize how shallow you point of view is.

[BC]

Again, Wiz decides to post from his favorite source that draws conclusions not supported by the facts.

The OSCE daily reports are available here:

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine-closed
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports

When reviewing the daily reports, note the following disclaimer often used:

11 The table only includes ceasefire violations directly observed by SMM patrols or recorded by the SMM
cameras, and it may include those also assessed to be live-fire exercises, controlled detonations, etc. Details
provided – in terms of distance, direction, weapons-type, etc. – are based on assessments provided by monitors
on the ground and technical monitoring officers, and are not always necessarily precise. When information is
not known (indicated with an “N/K”), the SMM was unable to ascertain such information due to distance,
weather conditions technical limitations and/or other considerations. Ceasefire violations recorded by more
than one patrol/camera and assessed to be the same are entered only once.

Reviewing reports and tables over some time, you'll find that the vast majority of incidents were likely due to live fire exercises, aka target practice.  With a map you can get a gist of who may have been firing, and any damage or casualties noted.  Especially toward the end of monitoring, OSCE monitors were barred from entering many areas, so live fire exercises may not be fully reflected/confirmed.

In the last summary available, the following information regarding casualties is shown:



Draw your conclusions about whether or not the statement in Whizzies post below rings true.  Base your conclusion on available facts and not conjecture, speculation and wild guesses represented in the article he referenced.

We want to emphasize that the officials from the OSCE were operating in their professional capacity gathering first-hand evidence of shelling in the area. What their data shows is that Ukrainian Forces were bombing and killing their own people. This has all been documented and has not been challenged.

So, the question we must all ask ourselves is this: Is the bombardment and slaughter of one’s own people an ‘act of war’?

[Markje]

I just can't see how this get's wrapped up in any kind of final conclusive peace agreement. Mistrust, regime change and brutal conflict is the result of it all and it's very very messy.

Russia ends up being finically weaken to where they stop the war. When that happens this all ends.

I have said this before, but you fail to observe the point and let me be more blunt:

Money is not a factor for such a country. Remember Germany was all but Bankrupt when they started WO-II and they did very well in the beginning. There were enough machines-of-war produced despite there being no money. German highways were an invention of Hitler and they were built ..... despite no money.

As a matter of fact, the harsh financial sanctions Europe put on Germany for loosing WO-I were one of the key contributing factors of it starting WO-II.

Mark.

[Markje]

Again, Wiz decides to post from his favorite source that draws conclusions not supported by the facts.

The OSCE daily reports are available here:

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine-closed
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512629
This is the report you're looking for, the exact date Wiz mentioned.

You will note the very first line in the summery says:

In Donetsk region, the SMM recorded 591 ceasefire violations, including 553 explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 222 ceasefire violations in the region.

The previous reporting being the day before aka "yesterday".
So in 1 day there's a sharp incline in the number of cease-fire violations.

When reviewing the daily reports, note the following disclaimer often used:

Innuendo so they have 'deniability' from a political point of view. Nobody takes that seriously when analyzing the raw-data.
It does not pass my "giggles" test when I have to assume they suddenly started firing rockets to Donetsk/Lugansk as a training excercise.

[imfi]https://i.postimg.cc/MG5tgb5S/Screenshot-2023-02-09-at-05-55-54.jpg[/imfi]

I will note that this table is missing the dates Wiz is talking about, so its completely useless in determining:

Draw your conclusions about whether or not the statement in Whizzies post below rings true.  Base your conclusion on available facts and not conjecture, speculation and wild guesses represented in the article he referenced.

So facts say: There are no facts presented in your post above.
I have corrected that error using your own osce website.

Mark.

[BC]

Draw your conclusions about whether or not the statement in Whizzies post below rings true.  Base your conclusion on available facts and not conjecture, speculation and wild guesses represented in the article he referenced.

So facts say: There are no facts presented in your post above.
I have corrected that error using your own osce website.

Mark.

Mark,

From Whizzes post:

What the OSCE discovered was that the bombardment dramatically intensified as the week went on until it reached a peak on February 19, when a total of 2,026 artillery strikes were recorded. Keep in mind, the Ukrainian Army was, in fact, shelling civilian areas along the Line of Contact that were occupied by other Ukrainians.

Nothing in the OSCE reports back up the assertion in bold.  If your opinion concurs with the stated opinion, that's fine. 

Were the number of ceasefire violations increasing days prior to the invasion? Certainly, as OSCE reported.  Did OSCE attribute the escalation to one side or the other?  It did not.  The article is misleading and without substance. 

[Bodine]

The US provided ‘declassified’ proof that it was in fact Russia that orchestrated false flag operation in Ukraine to justify a planned invasion. According to Ned Price Russia collected corpses to stage a bombing video of civilians getting shelled in eastern Ukraine.

The US had exercise every means possible to deescalate and stop this pending war. The Biden administration did not want this war.

Remember Tonkin….

[Markje]

Were the number of ceasefire violations increasing days prior to the invasion? Certainly, as OSCE reported.  Did OSCE attribute the escalation to one side or the other?  It did not.  The article is misleading and without substance.

Although they did not, just looking at the map the picture is very clear (unless you think those damn seperatists are bombing their own villages .... riiiiight).

[BC]

Were the number of ceasefire violations increasing days prior to the invasion? Certainly, as OSCE reported.  Did OSCE attribute the escalation to one side or the other?  It did not.  The article is misleading and without substance.

Although they did not, just looking at the map the picture is very clear (unless you think those damn seperatists are bombing their own villages .... riiiiight).

Mark, as the map title clearly states, they show the concentration of ceasefire violations. The maps do not indicate a target or area attacked. It shows the general area where either a detonation was heard, shot fired, mines found, artillery fired, missiles fired, impact crater found, military vehicles and arms out of their designated areas, UXOs being blown up and a host of other items, including target practice.  The daily summary, at the end, shows the list of violations represented on the maps. 

[Markje]

Were the number of ceasefire violations increasing days prior to the invasion? Certainly, as OSCE reported.  Did OSCE attribute the escalation to one side or the other?  It did not.  The article is misleading and without substance.

Although they did not, just looking at the map the picture is very clear (unless you think those damn seperatists are bombing their own villages .... riiiiight).

Mark, as the map title clearly states, they show the concentration of ceasefire violations. The maps do not indicate a target or area attacked. It shows the general area where either a detonation was heard, shot fired, mines found, artillery fired, missiles fired, impact crater found, military vehicles and arms out of their designated areas, UXOs being blown up and a host of other items, including target practice.  The daily summary, at the end, shows the list of violations represented on the maps.

Yeah sure.

So suppose you are at a completely empty intersection late at night, you are the only car there. Do you stop for the red traffic light and wait for it to go green?

[Wiz]

Draw your conclusions about whether or not the statement in Whizzies post below rings true.  Base your conclusion on available facts and not conjecture, speculation and wild guesses represented in the article he referenced.

So facts say: There are no facts presented in your post above.
I have corrected that error using your own osce website.
Mark.

From Whizzes post:

What the OSCE discovered was that the bombardment dramatically intensified as the week went on until it reached a peak on February 19, when a total of 2,026 artillery strikes were recorded. Keep in mind, the Ukrainian Army was, in fact, shelling civilian areas along the Line of Contact that were occupied by other Ukrainians.

Nothing in the OSCE reports back up the assertion in bold.  If your opinion concurs with the stated opinion, that's fine. 

Were the number of ceasefire violations increasing days prior to the invasion? Certainly, as OSCE reported.  Did OSCE attribute the escalation to one side or the other?  It did not.  The article is misleading and without substance.

Jeffrey Sachs | United States is FINISHED?

[Texan77]

Money is not a factor for such a country. Remember Germany was all but Bankrupt when they started WO-II and they did very well in the beginning. There were enough machines-of-war produced despite there being no money. German highways were an invention of Hitler and they were built ..... despite no money.

Mark.

So, what did Germany build is roads with?

[Texan77]

Money is not a factor for such a country. Remember Germany was all but Bankrupt when they started WO-II and they did very well in the beginning. There were enough machines-of-war produced despite there being no money. German highways were an invention of Hitler and they were built ..... despite no money.

Mark.

So, what did Germany build is roads with?

What I am reading the invaded small countries and stole everything they could to pay for the war. They did not do any of it without money, simply they stole the money from small countries to finance the war.

“The German war machine was almost out of money when they invaded Austria. Suddenly they had about 90 tons of new gold, and that allowed them to go on invading other countries.”

Now where is Russia going to go and steal money like Germany did? Part of why the Russian army killed the German army is they could not get any money out of the land the conquered in Russia. The Russian left nothing behind. So, in part the Germans were going broke and could not finance their war machine to the level it was needed to continue the war in Russia. 

The concept money does not matter is stupid.

[Markje]

What I am reading the invaded small countries and stole everything they could to pay for the war. They did not do any of it without money, simply they stole the money from small countries to finance the war.

The propaganda machine really is not doing you any favors. When Germany started the war, they had no money and were near bankrupt as a country. So where / how did they build their war machines ? On native soil of course.

“The German war machine was almost out of money when they invaded Austria. Suddenly they had about 90 tons of new gold, and that allowed them to go on invading other countries.”

The gold? where are they going to spend it if all the world around them is against them. Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Russia, France, Austria, Switzerland ... none of them wanted to trade with Germany. And back then you didn't have long-haul cargo flights or cargo-boats in massive sizes.

Now where is Russia going to go and steal money like Germany did? Part of why the Russian army killed the German army is they could not get any money out of the land the conquered in Russia. The Russian left nothing behind. So, in part the Germans were going broke and could not finance their war machine to the level it was needed to continue the war in Russia. 

The concept money does not matter is stupid.

Typical American response. Money makes the world go round, except when you're bankrupt.

Countries like Russia are so big, they don't need to buy from other countries, they can do it all domestic.

[mhr7]

Money is not a factor for such a country. Remember Germany was all but Bankrupt when they started WO-II and they did very well in the beginning. There were enough machines-of-war produced despite there being no money. German highways were an invention of Hitler and they were built ..... despite no money.

Germany had built up to the strongest economy in Europe before they started WWII.

[Markje]

Money is not a factor for such a country. Remember Germany was all but Bankrupt when they started WO-II and they did very well in the beginning. There were enough machines-of-war produced despite there being no money. German highways were an invention of Hitler and they were built ..... despite no money.

Germany had built up to the strongest economy in Europe before they started WWII.

What are you smoking?

[mhr7]

Money is not a factor for such a country. Remember Germany was all but Bankrupt when they started WO-II and they did very well in the beginning. There were enough machines-of-war produced despite there being no money. German highways were an invention of Hitler and they were built ..... despite no money.

Germany had built up to the strongest economy in Europe before they started WWII.

What are you smoking?

Apparently something that makes me know history.

[Markje]

Apparently something that makes me know history.

World War II: Causes (1919–1939)
You Mean World War I Was Not “The War to End All Wars”?

Economic Depression
The whole world was hit by an economic depression in the late 1920s. In a depression, economies shrink, trade is reduced, businesses close, prices fall, banks fail, and unemployment rises. Sometimes during a depression, people look
for a strong political leader to resolve their problems. In 1933, Adolf Hitler became the leader of Germany by promising to
restore German wealth and power

But one example, just google for it and you will find it.

The great bankrupcy of the world including Germany (whom also was forced to pay enourmous amounts of money/coal to France) meant that Hitler rose to power easily, promising the German people prosperity and wealth.

Which of course meant that they weren't prosperous nor wealthy when WW-2 started.

[Bodine]

Marjke-

I guess it will be a matter of definition. Germany created their own prosperity before WW II started. Literally zero unemployment a few years before WW II.

You are right they were in economic shambles after the Great War until a few years before WW II when NAZI came to power.

[Wiz]

Marjke-

I guess it will be a matter of definition. Germany created their own prosperity before WW II started. Literally zero unemployment a few years before WW II.

You are right they were in economic shambles after the Great War until a few years before WW II when NAZI came to power.

Any idea who financed Fashist Germany when Hitler came to Power?