Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev has died at 91

[Lord of the Dance]

https://news.sky.com/story/mikhail-gorbachev-former-soviet-leader-has-died-reports-12685639

[Contrarian]

https://news.sky.com/story/mikhail-gorbachev-former-soviet-leader-has-died-reports-12685639

Gorbachev was a real leader for Russia and the World. Rest in Peace Gorby.

[AvHdB]

https://news.sky.com/story/mikhail-gorbachev-former-soviet-leader-has-died-reports-12685639

Gorbachev was a real leader for Russia and the World. Rest in Peace Gorby.

Well stated 

Gordy knew the current at the time USSR was unsubstanile and let it dissolve hoping that he could pick up pieces to fit in a new Soviet Union

Rest In Peace Gorby you did humanity a good turn.

[Markje]

https://news.sky.com/story/mikhail-gorbachev-former-soviet-leader-has-died-reports-12685639

Gorbachev was a real leader for Russia and the World. Rest in Peace Gorby.

And yet, within Russia he was hated with a passion. He is blamed for the demise of the USSR.

[rosco]

https://news.sky.com/story/mikhail-gorbachev-former-soviet-leader-has-died-reports-12685639

Gorbachev was a real leader for Russia and the World. Rest in Peace Gorby.

And yet, within Russia he was hated with a passion. He is blamed for the demise of the USSR.

Yea I've read that but you can see why he was viewed as the good guy in the West. He was the "American puppet" but thankfully it de escalated the Cold War.

[Danchik]

https://news.sky.com/story/mikhail-gorbachev-former-soviet-leader-has-died-reports-12685639

Gorbachev was a real leader for Russia and the World. Rest in Peace Gorby.

And yet, within Russia he was hated with a passion. He is blamed for the demise of the USSR.

Actually, I have always been confounded by the hate directed at Gorbachev in Russia so I started to take my own little poll amongst the Russians I know and was quite surprised at the number whom had relatively nice things to say about him.

Now I deal with the middle to upper middle class and elites in Moscow who are very anti-communist, free market types of people and very well-educated.

Sure, you have you diehard communists who think that he sold out to the West, especially how Western people/businesses came in and raped the country during the 90's, but most young people realise they wouldn't be living the life they do live now without his foresight.

He gets a bad rap, but it's mostly from the over 40, maybe 50 yr old crowd. If you hear a young person bashing him, most likely they're just parroting what their parents have said to them, if they even know much about him at all.

I have always been a fan of Gorbachev, a true statesman who was well ahead of the curve at that time in Russia. R.I.P.

[Markje]

He gets a bad rap, but it's mostly from the over 40, maybe 50 yr old crowd. If you hear a young person bashing him, most likely they're just parroting what their parents have said to them, if they even know much about him at all.

Ah so the people who actually lived during his reign bad-rep him. Gotcha.

[Danchik]

Well, most of the people who said positive things about him were alive (in their late 30's early 40's and a few in their 50's now), but too young to really know what was happening.

Those in their 50's talk about how they were down at the protests fighting for their freedom when the tanks came rolling in down the Arbat.

The comment I remember most is from a good friend who is now in his early 40's. "Name another head of state who had done, or attempted to do, what he did before that time. It was unprecedented". i.e. going/transitioning from a totally communist state to a free market economy.

[2tallbill]

And yet, within Russia he was hated with a passion. He is blamed for the demise of the USSR.

He also gets lumped with Yeltsin's sins.

The turmoil that Russia had before Putin was terrible to
go through. That's why everyone Russian thinks Putin is
the Sh!t.

[andrewfi]

Well, most of the people who said positive things about him were alive (in their late 30's early 40's and a few in their 50's now), but too young to really know what was happening.

Those in their 50's talk about how they were down at the protests fighting for their freedom when the tanks came rolling in down the Arbat.

The comment I remember most is from a good friend who is now in his early 40's. "Name another head of state who had done, or attempted to do, what he did before that time. It was unprecedented". i.e. going/transitioning from a totally communist state to a free market economy.

Yeah, what he attempted to do was unprecedented - it was also necessary. The difficulty was that he did not go far enough to be able to attain success. That may not have been his fault. I cannot remember the ins and outs; it was a long time ago that I was studying this stuff. Gorbachov would have had to deal with many stakeholders who were not in favour of any reform. Sadly, it took Yeltsin to enable the changes; he was misled and manipulated into disastrous choices for Russia, and, of course, some of the blame went back to Gorbachov, who was not to blame for the Yeltsin years.

The other problem is that he broke the social contract between the citizens and the state. This led, unsurprisingly, to poverty, stress and blighted lives, which remained blighted for many people now in their 50s and 60s.

Another point is that for many people, Soviet times were actually pretty good - until the end. So, and this goes back to the social contract issue, many people preferred life under the Soviet system to that which followed. Of course, since then, opportunities have opened up and, these days, a majority, particularly younger people, are happy with their lot.

Is the low opinion of Gorbachov held by many Russians and those who lived under the Soviet system elsewhere unjustified? No, I think it is not, from the perspective of those people.

I had not given this matter much thought until, well, some 20 years ago now...
A guy I used to know, a pretty successful man, said that he preferred Soviet times even though he had, in material terms, a much higher standard of living by the early 2000s. He lamented the quality of life that he felt he had lost. And from the times we shared together, I get his point and understand it. To be honest, I do not know his opinion of Gorbachov, but I'd expect, given his explanation of his preferences, that Gorby would not have been his favourite man.

Since then, I have met more than a few who preferred life under the Soviet system and more than a few whose lives were blighted by the end of the Soviet system.

And all of that is noted with an understanding that the Soviet system was going to end, that it had become unsustainable due to hidden inflation and the effects upon the economy and thus on society.

[2tallbill]

And all of that is noted with an understanding that the Soviet system was going to end, that it had become unsustainable due to hidden inflation and the effects upon the economy and thus on society.

A forced command and control economy is impossible to
either command or control. Deciding a year in advance
how much green paint you are going to produce is as
ridiculous as it's narcissistic.

Then running that command and control economy with all
those corrupt bureaucratic wanna be tyrants at every level.
It's not any wonder that it all came crashing down.

To me it's amazing that the corrupt system lasted as long as
it did.

[Lord of the Dance]

Gorbachev in a Pizza Hut commercial

[andrewfi]

Bill, it's about information and the quality of that information.

Data is processed and analysed and turned into information. The more complex the economy, the more data. And yes there are perverse incentives that lead to distortions in the data gathering. This leads to inaccurate forecasts.

Businesses manage budgets, inventory, orders all the time and are able to predict their likely needs. It is normal. Conceptually, there's not much difference between a business planning and forecasting future periods and what the Soviet system was doing.

Governments do much the same. Often less successfully.

The big difference is scale and complexity.

By Gorbachev's time, it was impossible to manage the data as the Soviet economy became more complex.

Today? I'm not so sure that it is not possible.

But the Soviet economy was more than just central control and planning. Just as the US economy is not entirely a free market one.

The shortcomings of the Soviet system were what Gorbachev was trying to address. He was unable to go far enough.

[Contrarian]

Bill, it's about information and the quality of that information.

Data is processed and analysed and turned into information. The more complex the economy, the more data. And yes there are perverse incentives that lead to distortions in the data gathering. This leads to inaccurate forecasts.

Businesses manage budgets, inventory, orders all the time and are able to predict their likely needs. It is normal. Conceptually, there's not much difference between a business planning and forecasting future periods and what the Soviet system was doing.

Governments do much the same. Often less successfully.

The big difference is scale and complexity.

By Gorbachev's time, it was impossible to manage the data as the Soviet economy became more complex.

Today? I'm not so sure that it is not possible.

But the Soviet economy was more than just central control and planning. Just as the US economy is not entirely a free market one.

The shortcomings of the Soviet system were what Gorbachev was trying to address. He was unable to go far enough.

The USA is far from a "free market economy" and has been for decades due to government meddling.

Neo CON Bush Jr destroyed the American economy with his illegal overseas wars which rewarded large MIC companies with federally subsidized dollars for them at the expense of the overall US economy.

Bailouts of large poorly performing corporations during the Covid situation by Trump and now Biden while not bailing out small companies accelerated the destruction of small businesses in America which was their plan all along.

[2tallbill]

Bill, it's about information and the quality of that information.

You are correct, however the Soviet Union was a massive
economy with 290 million people. There are too many data
points and too many possibilities/results to measure or control.

Also, the Soviets commissars would frequently lie about various
results, bad data leads to garbage in, garbage out (precisely your
point above).

A market economy is far more flexible and self correcting, the
biggest disadvantage is unemployment during down cycles. You
know all of this of course but not all the forum members do, so
please excuse me while pointing this out. 

Udachi!

Bill