Should the US supply arms to Ukraine or spend the money at home?

[2tallbill]

Should the US supply arms to Ukraine or keep the money at home?

[Contrarian]

Should the US supply arms to Ukraine or keep the money at home?

Keep the money at home.

We don't really get a choice as to what the Feds do with our money, they just steal it and add it to the national debt which puts every man, woman and child into debt bondage for eternity.

[Lon]

what do Ukrainians want?

[Bodine]

Wishful thinking.

Ukraine and its leaders had expressed in more than one occasion that what they want is to fight for their 'independence' even if it leads to their demise. If that's what their leaders and people want to do, we should all respect that declaration and cease all interference from us.

We have TONS of problems at home ourselves to be involving us in other nation's problems/wishes.

[WestCoast]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

[Jonas!]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

That is not realistic, but it seems to be a good enough excuse for some of the uninformed masses.

Jonas!   

[Bodine]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

Walk the talk, Westcoast. Have you signed up yet? I have a feeling the answer is a loud 'NO'.

[WestCoast]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

That is not realistic, but it seems to be a good enough excuse for some of the uninformed masses.

Jonas!

Please tell me why this isn't realistic? Few if any western military analysts believe all Putin wants is Ukraine.

Jonas I'm assuming you're old enough to know what the Warsaw Pact was? Why wouldn't Putin try something like that or simply induct Ukraine and other countries into Russia?

[WestCoast]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

Walk the talk, Westcoast. Have you signed up yet? I have a feeling the answer is a loud 'NO'.

I'm over 65 so even if I wanted to I'm too old for the Canadian military. However if Canada were about to be invaded and the Canadian military was offering weapons training for volunteer defense forces much like they're doing in Ukraine I'd sign up and get in as much weapons training as possible before the invasion. If possible stock pile weapons and ammo. Maybe join or form a civilian militia.

I've been to gun ranges in Nevada and fired off a few thousand rounds from different weapons, sidearms and rifles over a number of visits. Even did the CCW course in Nevada.

[Bodine]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

Walk the talk, Westcoast. Have you signed up yet? I have a feeling the answer is a loud 'NO'.

I'm over 65 so even if I wanted to I'm too old for the Canadian military. However if Canada were about to be invaded and the Canadian military was offering weapons training for volunteer defense forces much like they're doing in Ukraine I'd sign up and get in as much weapons training as possible before the invasion. If possible stock pile weapons and ammo. Maybe join or form a civilian militia.

I've been to gun ranges in Nevada and fired off a few thousand rounds from different weapons, sidearms and rifles over a number of visits. Even did the CCW course in Nevada.

Blah, blah blah... Exactly as I thought.

[2tallbill]

That is not realistic, but it seems to be a good enough excuse for some of the uninformed masses.

Jonas!

It fooled everyone in Germany they did a one time increase in their military
spending by $100 million dollars

[Jonas!]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

That is not realistic, but it seems to be a good enough excuse for some of the uninformed masses.

Jonas!

Please tell me why this isn't realistic? Few if any western military analysts believe all Putin wants is Ukraine.
 

The "Putin wants to take over the world" line is just used to get people on board with fighting him indirectly in Ukraine.  Ukraine itself isn't enough to get people interested, but when people start to talk about the rest of the world, then it perks some ears up.   I don't believe Russia has interest in administering to any more than it already has and is chewing off now.    West has provoked him into Ukraine which has ruined their Nord stream 2 pipeline.  The US price, a lot of Ukrainian lives and territory...not much of a price for the US for the short-term gain. 

Jonas!   

[Jonas!]

That is not realistic, but it seems to be a good enough excuse for some of the uninformed masses.

Jonas!

It fooled everyone in Germany they did a one time increase in their military
spending by $100 million dollars

I think you meant 100 billion.    Well countries should spend on their own defense if they can afford it.  I'm going to be curious to see if Germany takes on a larger role in aggressive 'western coalitions' abroad. 

Jonas!   

[Texan77]

The "Putin wants to take over the world" line is just used to get people on board with fighting him indirectly in Ukraine.

There are a lot of governments who are on board with it especial the ones near Ukraine who used to be part of the USSR. Putin screw up invading Ukraine and will over the next few years pay a big price. He is at war with his biggest customers who he will likely lose as well as the problems in Ukraine.  Yes, he can sell oil in India, but the shipping cost is eating up most of the profit. Brent is selling for near a 100 dollars. West Texas crude for around 88 dollars. Russian Crude is about 77 dollars. This is because of the quality of the oil as to the value of the products that can be made from the oil. Then Russia has to discount it 30 per cent and now pay shipping cost something close to 40 dollars for a ship to India not really that much left. Pipeline to Europe and getting full price while his shipping cost nearly zero made much more money. It is a big difference.  Now he is telling everyone he is at war with the USA but not saying this is a war of his choosing. He did the invading. He would not negotiate with anything that would Ukraine any sovereignty. Now he pays! He cannot stop the war he can only try to justify it after the fact. He thought at this point in time Ukraine would negotiate with him and he would get a breather and let him rebuild for the next invasion, but it is not happening.

[Jonas!]

 

   Now he is telling everyone he is at war with the USA but not saying this is a war of his choosing. He did the invading. He would not negotiate with anything that would Ukraine any sovereignty. Now he pays! He cannot stop the war he can only try to justify it after the fact. He thought at this point in time Ukraine would negotiate with him and he would get a breather and let him rebuild for the next invasion, but it is not happening.

I don't think "NOW" is correct.  It has been about the USA all along.   

Ukraine didn't negotiate, now perhaps it is too late, and they are paying dearly.  Their choice.  I think the ultimate consequence is going to make them wish they did.

Jonas!   

[Texan77]

Russia did not give Ukraine anything to lose. They lost everything if they gave into Russia. Now Russia has 80,000 dead or severely wounded. They need replacements from Korea. For now, the west is going easy on Russia by limiting supplies to Ukraine. I hope that does not continue. A battle for Kerson is going to be happening in coming months.

[Contrarian]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

            

West coast proving once again what a mental midget he is...

[Jonas!]

Russia did not give Ukraine anything to lose. They lost everything if they gave into Russia. 

Before the invasion Putin's requirements weren't too much in comparison to what they probably are now.  So, in that respect, Ukraine had a lot to lose.   Their choice, at this time the consequences they suffer are mostly theirs. 

Jonas! 

[Manny]

Similarly, Boris sent billions of our cash that our country needs to Ukraine without an electoral mandate. It's one of many reasons for me it was time for him to go. Unfortunately, his likely successor told me she will continue to spaff our money at Ukraine without mandate (my wording, not hers).

[Bodine]

Tragic in so many levels...

1. Even at Ukraine's darkest days, many of its people would rather embrace their personal greed at the expense of its own people and country.

2. Our own country, and its pseudo-public relations media, would rather opt to sacrifice untold thousands, even millions, than have the truth be known to all.

At the pinnacle of bloodshed and violence, Ukrainians couldn't resist what they're good at, smuggles the majority of weaponry to the black market than see it end to its intended destination. This, while tens of thousands of its citizens are dying on the frontline.

CBS was about to air their investigative report about this very fact, when the government of both Ukraine and US blocked it to be edited. The 'edited' report added an editorial that 'things are much improved' these days. Missing is a quantifiable amount of what that 'improvement' means. It was estimated that only 30% of arm assistance were reaching its targeted destination before, so one can deduce 35-40% can be an 'improvement'. The US sent a Brig. General to Kiev earlier this month (August. 6 months into the war) to oversee the arms distribution operation but didn't elaborate as to what and how exactly he'll be doing there.

Ever notice how much Zelensky, the Stooge kept crying about weapons, weapons, weapons in their early weeks - literally every single day as he basked on social media attention. One wonders if he at least have an idea where those 70% ended up in.

[WestCoast]

Russia did not give Ukraine anything to lose. They lost everything if they gave into Russia. 

Before the invasion Putin's requirements weren't too much in comparison to what they probably are now.  So, in that respect, Ukraine had a lot to lose.   Their choice, at this time the consequences they suffer are mostly theirs. 

Jonas!

Jonas are you referring to the denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine? Demilitarization would make it real easy to invade and conquer at a later date.

[WestCoast]

Better to fight Russia in Ukraine now then to fight Russia in western Europe and North America later.

            

West coast proving once again what a mental midget he is...

Contrarian someone who makes Andy look of normal intelligence. That's hard to do.

[2tallbill]

Jonas are you referring to the denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine? Demilitarization would make it real easy to invade and conquer at a later date.

You assume that Jonas knows what Russia demanded of Ukraine before he started
posting his opinions about it. Clearly you are assuming too much.

What country would voluntarily lay down their arms in advance to an enemy that already
annexed huge parts of their country so that they could negotiate peace.

[Jonas!]

Jonas are you referring to the denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine? Demilitarization would make it real easy to invade and conquer at a later date.

You assume that Jonas knows what Russia demanded of Ukraine before he started
posting his opinions about it. Clearly you are assuming too much.

What country would voluntarily lay down their arms in advance to an enemy that already
annexed huge parts of their country so that they could negotiate peace.

I seem to recall Russia had stated demands.  I remember commenting they won't that extreme.  Had Ukraine bit the bullet and complied who knows what would have happened, but Russia wouldn't have had the need to invade.   
The point about Russia annexing parts of Ukraine in 2014 does complicate the issue, yet we can see the ramifications of the route Ukraine did take...I don't think the other route would have been as destructive.   

Jonas!   

[andrewfi]

It is a mistake to ascribe agency to Ukraine in all matters. That is clearly not the case.

Was it Ukrainian policy to create an underclass in Ukraine or was that idea generated outside of Ukraine with Ukrainian people - citizens and politicians who provided the implementation?

Of course, lack of agency does not excuse the actions of Ukrainian citizens against their countrymen.

The actions of people outside of Russia and Ukraine set the stage for what is happening now. It was avoidable.
Of course, while we know of the lack of agency of the powers that be in Ukraine, we do not know the inducements placed upon them, however we can judge the lack of principals those people have demonstrated.

It is an absolute error to see what is happening as a Russia V Ukraine issue. It is a mistake that flies in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.