Freedom in America?

[Contrarian]

Hope everyone enjoys this poll. It does actually seem to have a lot to do with the war in Ukraine, which is not just military but also cultural.

[andrewfi]

Freedom is a relative concept. Freedom means different things to different people and different cultures.

Before asking such a question, pehoas you might want to tell us exactly what freedom means to you so that we might respond to your question in the same or at least similar terms.

Years ago I came up with the concept that cultures or societies were like a box. Every society has a different shaped box, different proportions.

Most people never touch the sides of the box, no matter where they live, but when they do they are sanctioned in some way, usually quite harshly. At the same time, most of the population agree with the sanctions on the box toucher.

So, in those terms, an Estonian will have a different concept of freedom to a USAian. A resident of each country will probably be surprised by some of the limits placed upon the residents of the other.

Almost all inhabitants of all the boxes, would be unlikely to touch the sides of the boxes of other societies if they were to move to another box. That's because most of us never test the limits of our societies, no matter where we live.

So, tell us, what is freedom?

[Markje]

If you mean freedom as in how the constitution of USA envisioned it i'd say you lost little.

If you mean fair democratic elections id say no

[WestCoast]

If you mean freedom as in how the constitution of USA envisioned it i'd say you lost little.

If you mean fair democratic elections id say no

The farmers in the Netherlands appear to be saying the Netherlands is turning into an authoritarian regime.

[Markje]

If you mean freedom as in how the constitution of USA envisioned it i'd say you lost little.

If you mean fair democratic elections id say no

The farmers in the Netherlands appear to be saying the Netherlands is turning into an authoritarian regime.

Thats what a govt is, by definition.

The Dutch farmers are reacting to a very one-sided policy that would mean the end of all livestock farming in the Netherlands. Someone wasnt thinking when they made this policy

[Contrarian]

If you mean freedom as in how the constitution of USA envisioned it i'd say you lost little.

I say you're wrong, it's getting worse and will continue to do so. Out of control crime is one key area.

Back when the country started criminals were hung in a public square or at least put in jail after a speedy trial.

We don't have fair elections and this has a lot to do with the tyranny of imposters destroying the US Constitution.

[Markje]

If you mean freedom as in how the constitution of USA envisioned it i'd say you lost little.

I say you're wrong, it's getting worse and will continue to do so. Out of control crime is one key area.

Back when the country started criminals were hung in a public square or at least put in jail after a speedy trial.

We don't have fair elections and this has a lot to do with the tyranny of imposters destroying the US Constitution.

Choosing between 2 parties is redicolous, as is the plethora of parties NL has.

I dream that someday you guys wake up and vote en-masse for the 3d option (jill stein? Last time) and not for dems not for rep.

[andrewfi]

How is crime a freedom issue?

One might argue that we should be free to steal and that police remove the freedom to do so.
One could argue that freedom to enjoy one's property is a freedom.
So, two perspectives both valid.

So, what is 'freedom'?

All societies place limits on what their members can do. All societies limit freedom. So, however we define freedom, there will be limits - hence my box idea.

In the EU there is a list of freedoms: https://ec.europa.eu/info/aid-development-cooperation-fundamental-rights/your-rights-eu/know-your-rights/freedoms_en
But what about the ones not listed?

China also has a similar list: https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/celt/eng/zt/zfbps/t125236.htm Again, what about the ones not listed?

Often we talk of freedoms as 'human rights', but I am not sure they are fully synonymous.

I was a fan of Robert Heinlein's writing when I was a kid. he had stuff to say about freedom and democracy. Some of it still resonates, but much does not. Here's some of his ideas as quotes:
https://www.azquotes.com/author/6509-Robert_A_Heinlein/tag/freedom

This quote still rings true; as I grow older, I find myself more strongly in agreement with it!

The greatest fallacy of democracy is that everyone's opinion is worth the same.

Only obliquely about freedom, however, as a fundamental point, it makes sense in terms of freedom because it means that we should discard what many people bleat about on any topic.

[andrewfi]

How is crime a freedom issue?

One might argue that we should be free to steal and that police remove the freedom to do so.
One could argue that freedom to enjoy one's property is a freedom.
So, two perspectives both valid.

So, what is 'freedom'?

All societies place limits on what their members can do. All societies limit freedom. So, however we define freedom, there will be limits - hence my box idea.

In the EU there is a list of freedoms: https://ec.europa.eu/info/aid-development-cooperation-fundamental-rights/your-rights-eu/know-your-rights/freedoms_en
But what about the ones not listed?

China also has a similar list: https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/celt/eng/zt/zfbps/t125236.htm Again, what about the ones not listed?

China is an interesting case and gives insight into why the USA, in particular, finds China difficult to understand. China and the Chinese tend to see themselves as being a community. Freedom is less about the individual and more about the group. The USA is an individualistic culture so what they might see as tyranny and even authoritarian the Chinese see as normal and sensible because it enables the success of the community, the commonwealth. Russia, IMHO, falls between the two, but even Russia is incomprehensible to most USAians. I have previously written that IMHO, Russia has a great degree of personal freedom. Not because there is no corruption (there is- still). Not because rule of law is perfect - it isn't. But simply because, in most respects, Russia as a state has little wish to interfere in the lives of individuals going about their lives.

Often we talk of freedoms as 'human rights', but I am not sure they are fully synonymous.

I was a fan of Robert Heinlein's writing when I was a kid. he had stuff to say about freedom and democracy. Some of it still resonates, but much does not. Here are some of his ideas as quotes:
https://www.azquotes.com/author/6509-Robert_A_Heinlein/tag/freedom

This quote still rings true; I agree more strongly with it as I grow older!

The greatest fallacy of democracy is that everyone's opinion is worth the same.

Only obliquely about freedom, however, as a fundamental point, it makes sense in terms of freedom because it means that we should discard what many people bleat about on any topic.

So, the things that USAians see as freedoms, Chinese and Russians may not - and vice versa.

[Steveboy]

Freedom is not having a chain around your neck.. loans, credit.. debt ....

Being answerable to no one and not being a slave to society is freedom for me..That can be in any country..

looks like lots in the US are only on level 2 for financial freedom..

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/10/the-7-levels-of-financial-freedom-according-to-a-millionaire-50percent-of-us-workers-are-at-level-2.html

[andrewfi]

Freedom is not having a chain around your neck.. loans, credit.. debt ....

Being answerable to no one and not being a slave to society is freedom for me..That can be in any country..

looks like lots in the US are only on level 2 for financial freedom..

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/10/the-7-levels-of-financial-freedom-according-to-a-millionaire-50percent-of-us-workers-are-at-level-2.html

I understand that I can certainly agree with that statement. But many people in the USA might talk of freedom to be able to kill people with their guns or the freedom to burn down police stations. Others might talk of the freedom to stop women from having abortions - and some about the freedom of women to control their own bodies.

IMHO, the lists of human rights or freedoms of China or the EU make a good start but are certainly culturally biased.

[Contrarian]

Toto, I Don't Think We're In Kansas Anymore...


"Recently, an American colleague commented to me, “We no longer live in a democracy but a dictatorship disguised as a democracy.”

and

"Vladimir Lenin stated that “Fascism is capitalism in decay.” He was quite correct. Fascism is a slow cancer that eats away at an economy. It transfers wealth to the largest, most politically influential corporations. Yet, the concept of fascism is greatly misunderstood today. Most anyone who decries fascism will describe symptoms such as jackboots and swastikas, but fail to offer an actual definition.

For a definition, we might ask Benito Mussolini, the father of national fascism. He stated, “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.”

By defining the term, we can conclude that the US is no longer a capitalist country and hasn't been one for a long time. The US began its slide into fascism in a major way around the time that income tax and the Federal Reserve were created – in 1913. These measures were the brainchild of the largest bankers of the day and the Fed still remains under the power of the major banks."


https://internationalman.com/articles/toto-i-dont-think-were-in-kansas-anymore/

[andrewfi]

I think the colleague does not know the definition of dictatorship.

However, a dictatorship as government is not a guarantee of a significant lack of personal freedom. Although, at times, it might be - but on those occasions, personal freedoms would likely be limited under other forms of government.

The form of government is not the arbiter of freedom. And to repeat, freedom is a variable concept that is highly culturally dependent and open to individual definition.

[Contrarian]

I think the colleague does not know the definition of dictatorship.

However, a dictatorship as government is not a guarantee of a significant lack of personal freedom. Although, at times, it might be - but on those occasions, personal freedoms would likely be limited under other forms of government.

The form of government is not the arbiter of freedom. And to repeat, freedom is a variable concept that is highly culturally dependent and open to individual definition.

You aren't American nor do you have roots going back a few hundred years here like many of us. This poll is really best answered by real Americans, which I define as somebody whose ancestors first came here a minimum of 150 years ago.

You're obviously excluded from that sort of definition and although your opinion has been noted it's meaningless to me and others who hail from here.

[B.B.]

The Dutch farmers are reacting to a very one-sided policy that would mean the end of all livestock farming in the Netherlands. Someone wasnt thinking when they made this policy

They were thinking, but the problem is that they are simply evil.

B/B

[B.B.]

I dream that someday you guys wake up and vote en-masse for the 3d option (jill stein? Last time) and not for dems not for rep.

First, F*CK Jill Stein, she's basically a commie.  The difficulty the US has in this is that it is not a parliamentary democracy. 

Ross Perot got nearly 20M votes in 1992, or about 19% of all cast, but did not get a single Electoral Vote.  Not even one. 

B/B

[Bodine]

Freedom is a relative concept. Freedom means different things to different people and different cultures.,<snip>

I disagree.

Freedom is a concept. Period. Unattainable. Freedom is liberty unfettered by limitations/restriction. Civilization is the antithesis of freedom in its purest state.

[andrewfi]

Bodine, unless you have examples of complete freedom, then, of course it is a relative concept.

And just look at the laws of various countries to see how the concept of what freedom means and which freedoms should be prioritised.

Personally, I think that complete freedom would be a form of tyranny as stronger people in society imposed their own freedoms on others. Oh, wait, that's exactly what we have now. And that leads us back to the relativity of freedom.

[Contrarian]

Freedom is a relative concept. Freedom means different things to different people and different cultures.,<snip>

I disagree.

Freedom is a concept. Period. Unattainable. Freedom is liberty unfettered by limitations/restriction. Civilization is the antithesis of freedom in its purest state.

It is not unattainable. Remember that even in the former Soviet there were those who survived by barter and who continued to practice Christianity underground despite the communist decrees against it (not that I think "christianity" is the only religion people should be free to practice).

Let me rewrite your last sentence: Democracy is the antithesis of freedom in its purest state.

Doesn't that sound more accurate? Refer back to Athenian democracy and compare it to the mamby pamby crap it is today thanks to certain rat-*snip*s. 

[Bodine]

Bodine, unless you have examples of complete freedom, then, of course it is a relative concept.

That statement in of itself was exactly my point. Freedom, in its purest state/definition, is simply a concept, an idea. Degrees of restriction, limitation, boundaries - positive/negative, begins to diminish the purity of the definition. Subjection, in any degree or form, creates relativity - which would be your point. By then, all you really have is 'some' degree of 'freedom.

And just look at the laws of various countries to see how the concept of what freedom means and which freedoms should be prioritised.

Personally, I think that complete freedom would be a form of tyranny as stronger people in society imposed their own freedoms on others. Oh, wait, that's exactly what we have now. And that leads us back to the relativity of freedom.

IIRC, there was an article written not too long ago ( I don't remember the author) that spliced, then applied, the concept of freedom both in civilization's social and political sector. It attempted to explain the various positive/negative freedoms as a result of human's attitudes, behavior and learned experiences.

Example: Freedom to fight for liberty and just cause! But is it? From whose definition? To some, such persons are freedom fighters/liberators. To others, Terrorist/murderers. Both limit freedom regardless.

The 'concept' had long been defined, debated, explained by greater minds than myself, all in thousands pages of literature, even prose, and yet to this day, feeble minds like my own are still in search of what 'freedom' really is.

Freedom is a relative concept. Freedom means different things to different people and different cultures.,<snip>

I disagree.

Freedom is a concept. Period. Unattainable. Freedom is liberty unfettered by limitations/restriction. Civilization is the antithesis of freedom in its purest state.

It is not unattainable. Remember that even in the former Soviet there were those who survived by barter and who continued to practice Christianity underground despite the communist decrees against it (not that I think "christianity" is the only religion people should be free to practice).

Let me rewrite your last sentence: Democracy is the antithesis of freedom in its purest state.

Doesn't that sound more accurate? [b[Refer back to Athenian democracy and compare it to the mamby pamby crap it is today thanks to certain rat-*snip*s.[/b] 

The very argument you extolled above only displays Andrewfi's example of relativity. Which I disagreed with. There has never been 'freedom' in any of our civilized societies.

One can argue, and I certainly will, that present day USA is actually moving far closer to the idea of total 'freedom' in its purest definition. Gender Identity is a good example of that as it now offers wide freedom for sectors within our society, which was restricted, and even oppressed, not too long ago.

California's Proposition 47 effectively broadens limitations of our social existence. There are far more 'homelessness' than it used to be. Hell, not trying to be facetious, looting was once illegal. We now conduct 'total freedom' of open warfare elsewhere (e.g. Obama) - without an official declaration of one. We now murder US citizens without due process (e.g. Obama), etc...