Illegal Immigration discussion

[2tallbill]

Illegal Immigration discussion:

I am starting this thread so that another thread doesn't get bogged down
with this. Maybe a mod can toss the illegal immigration posts over to this
thread?

[2tallbill]

The USA doesn't "permit enough legal immigration to accommodate demand"? Where do you get your information? The link shows "persons obtaining legal permanent resident status by fiscal year" back to 1890. Totals shown are for the last 6 years. I don't think these total includes immigrants from the Green Card Lottery which would add at least another 50K people a year.

2015   1,051,031
2016   1,183,505
2017   1,127,167
2018   1,096,611
2019   1,031,765
2020   707,362

An average of 1 million new immigrants a year for the last 6 years isn't enough immigrants? How many immigrants a year is required in your opinion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa

Westy,

Jonas aka Fathertime doesn't rely on facts, he relies on his feelings
and his anecdotal experiences. If challenged he will never, ever use
a reference or source to back up what he says.

He will never accept any statistic, reference or source you post as valid.
Anything that disagrees with his worldview is biased and partisan.
Arguing with him is mostly a waste of time.

[2tallbill]

I have no number, I don't need to have a number.

I knew you were using your feelings and anecdotal flim flam.

I don't need to have a number. 

But team Biden needs a number. Team Biden is trying to increase illegal immigration
by 500-600% over any year in history by their own admission. Would it not be smart
to know if this was too little, too much or just right?

Who thinks that purposefully helping millions of people to subvert our
immigration laws is an impeachable offense?


Judge blocks Biden administration from lifting public health order used
to quickly expel migrants
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/20/title-42-border-judge-ruling-migrants/

[WestCoast]

The USA doesn't "permit enough legal immigration to accommodate demand"? Where do you get your information? The link shows "persons obtaining legal permanent resident status by fiscal year" back to 1890. Totals shown are for the last 6 years. I don't think these total includes immigrants from the Green Card Lottery which would add at least another 50K people a year.

2015   1,051,031
2016   1,183,505
2017   1,127,167
2018   1,096,611
2019   1,031,765
2020   707,362

An average of 1 million new immigrants a year for the last 6 years isn't enough immigrants? How many immigrants a year is required in your opinion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa

Westy,

Jonas aka Fathertime doesn't rely on facts, he relies on his feelings
and his anecdotal experiences. If challenged he will never, ever use
a reference or source to back up what he says.

He will never accept any statistic, reference or source you post as valid.
Anything that disagrees with his worldview is biased and partisan.
Arguing with him is mostly a waste of time.

I'm beginning to understand that. I think he said in one post he owns a store in LA. Maybe he thinks
more immigration will increase his sales?

[Jonas!]

I'm beginning to understand that. I think he said in one post he owns a store in LA. Maybe he thinks
more immigration will increase his sales?

What is there to understand?  I don't have a number to give you, and choose not to make a number up.  I am stating we need more immigration. 

So far we haven't agreed on certain things, but I haven't taken pot shots at you.  If you want to start down that road, we can do that, and I can be a persistent pain, and would rather not. 

As far as Bill goes, he is utterly miserable (and angry) with me because he doesn't know how to disagree properly without throwing a fit.   

Jonas! 

[Jonas!]

I think he said in one post he owns a store in LA. Maybe he thinks
more immigration will increase his sales?

Illegal immigrants do increase sales, although I'm almost done selling off the business, so I don't really care about that aspect.    The reality is, I see who is doing the heavy work and buying the tools.   The people south of the border are the ones in the trenches everywhere.  Granted some are illegal.  There are a lot of self starters, living on their wiliness to work hard...they have no safety net but are out there toiling.   Meanwhile I see a lot of lazier citizens very quick to criticize while sipping their coffee feet propped up in their office chair.    The violent criminal element of any element I'm all for throwing the book at them.   

Meanwhile I'm for more immigration, preferably legally.   

Jonas! 

[2tallbill]

An ISIS plot where they planned to cross into the USA from Mexico.
Dingbat Lefty's don't understand the dangers of having zero border
controls.

EXCLUSIVE: ISIS Plotting To Assassinate George W. Bush In Dallas
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2022/05/24/exclusive-isis-plotting-to-assassinate-george-w-bush-in-dallas/?sh=962bfcc180f2

[Lon]

Illegal immigrants do increase sales.    The reality is, I see who is doing the heavy work and buying the tools.   The people south of the border are the ones in the trenches everywhere.  Granted some are illegal.  There are a lot of self starters, living on their wiliness to work hard...they have no safety net but are out there toiling.   Meanwhile I see a lot of lazier citizens very quick to criticize while sipping their coffee feet propped up in their office chair.    The violent criminal element of any element I'm all for throwing the book at them.   

that may be what you are seeing in your corner of the world, but you can not draw accurate conclusions that illegal immigrants are good for the US from that single viewpoint.

Meanwhile I'm for more immigration, preferably legally.   

Jonas!

it might be preferable to have more US babies, rather than importing more.  this is how an economy grows

[Jonas!]

That may be what you are seeing in your corner of the world, but you can not draw accurate conclusions that illegal immigrants are good for the US from that single viewpoint.
 

I won't speak for you or anyone else.  From my view, it is mostly recent arrivals, legally & illegally, that are doing much of the hard work.  Their offspring as well.

it might be preferable to have more US babies, rather than importing more.  this is how an economy grows

Yes, although that has been happening for a few decades.  This trend continues with lower and lower birthrates in the US.  Perhaps young people aren't very interested in rearing children, when smoking dope is more relaxing and easier.   

Realizing there is a limit to growth overall, natural resources sometimes get depleted.    I know this is a terrible sin but I was listening to the infamous AlGore a couple days ago.   He likened oil shale to a drug addict that could no longer use his arm veins (Due to overuse) to inject himself, so he had to inject himself between the toes.    Basically he was stating the amount of energy required to get to the oil shale was so great, it was nearly self defeating to extract it.  AlGore seems to exaggerate a bit, nevertheless perhaps their is some validity to his point.   

Jonas! 

[andrewfi]

Jonas!, the concept you refer to above is EROI (Energy Return On Investment), which is a problem.

here's a paper n the topic from 2010: https://westernresourceadvocates.org/publications/assessment-of-energy-roi-of-oil-shale/

It is outdated in that there have been efficiency improvements but, from what I can see as a literate dolt, there is a real issue here. It goes further than shale oil.

In macroeconomic terms, a society can only survive if its energy is affordable. Ask why interest rates are so low in the US and much of the western world? It is due to the cost of energy. Low interest rates reduce the cost of energy investments and make them seem more affordable. The problem is that low interest rates cause other issues in the economy and are thus not sustainable. Not least is the misallocation of risk. If interest rates are low, then money tends to flow into riskier investments (such as oil shale). Oil shale in the US probably only exists because the cost of capital is so low and the returns do not justify the rates of return offered by oil shale producers.

Long articles and books on the topic, but Al Gore, based on what you wrote, seems to be about right.

[Bodine]

I won't speak for you or anyone else.  From my view, it is mostly recent arrivals, legally & illegally, that are doing much of the hard work.  Their offspring as well.

No one refutes the manner in how most immigrants are prone to possess greased elbows a bit more so than the natives. But that's likely more attributable to having a fresh perspectives of being in the 'have nots' state. Eventually and in due course, most if not all, settle to the same state as others albeit with a more pronounced sense of *entitlement*.. Marching on the streets of DC while carrying their respective country's flags and all as though this nation is eternally indebted to each of them for 'being here'.

Mind you, it is only those who broke this country's sovereignty and entered it illegally, that are more prone to do this.

I won't speak for you or anyone else.  From my view, it is mostly recent arrivals, legally & illegally, that are doing much of the hard work.  Their offspring as well.

Yes, although that has been happening for a few decades.  This trend continues with lower and lower birthrates in the US.  Perhaps young people aren't very interested in rearing children, when smoking dope is more relaxing and easier.   

Realizing there is a limit to growth overall, natural resources sometimes get depleted.    I know this is a terrible sin but I was listening to the infamous AlGore a couple days ago.   He likened oil shale to a drug addict that could no longer use his arm veins (Due to overuse) to inject himself, so he had to inject himself between the toes.    Basically he was stating the amount of energy required to get to the oil shale was so great, it was nearly self defeating to extract it.  AlGore seems to exaggerate a bit, nevertheless perhaps their is some validity to his point.   

Jonas!

Flies in the same face as any other types of energy. Natural gas (methane release), Solar / wind (environmental), Nuclear, etc... Like he's always been, I wonder what the point of isolating one subject, citing the ills, and not cite, just as viably, the collective. More importantly, offer a solution.

[andrewfi]

Bodine, right now, there is no viable solution to the issue of energy costs. With the possible exception of nuclear.

Low EROI is a particular manifestation of a more general problem.

[Bodine]

Bodine, right now, there is no viable solution to the issue of energy costs. With the possible exception of nuclear.

Low EROI is a particular manifestation of a more general problem.

Fully concur, Andrew. Especially with an eternal growing population, on an overly indulging global society who will likely refuse, or depart from, any material affluence we've all grown to rely on. I doubt any improvement to EROIs any time soon, IMO, seem silly.

But what irks me is this constant declaration by moronic talking heads that *there's a viable alternative to the problem at hand* today. As though it's as simply as flicking a switch. Giving little understanding or explanation what each alternative actually yields in terms of at-points of extraction and usage.

Nuclear? Maybe, but not yet. Dunno. We do not have a full understand of the 'what if' all our energy source comes solely via nuclear, and what actual implication that may ultimately prove to be. IIMN, the total percentage of global nuclear low carbon power is at less than 30% - yet we've witness more than a few catastrophic ills we've experience thus far. Imagine a 100% reliance.

[Lon]

Bodine, right now, there is no viable solution to the issue of energy costs. With the possible exception of nuclear.

Low EROI is a particular manifestation of a more general problem.

Fully concur, Andrew. Especially with an eternal growing population, on an overly indulging global society who will likely refuse, or depart from, any material affluence we've all grown to rely on. I doubt any improvement to EROIs any time soon, IMO, seem silly.

Nuclear? Maybe, but not yet. Dunno. We do not have a full understand of the 'what if' all our energy source comes solely via nuclear, and what actual implication that may ultimately prove to be. IIMN, the total percentage of global nuclear low carbon power is at less than 30% - yet we've witness more than a few catastrophic ills we've experience thus far. Imagine a 100% reliance.

as one example....Robert Murray-Smith is a utube person that discusses energy matters.  batteries, generating and costs of such things.  perhaps more geared for the individual rather than large scale.  sometimes simple explanations others more thought provoking.  Zinc Bromine batteries come to mind for stationary storage.  simple, cheap and safe easy recycle

one of the biggest impacts we as individuals can have is in our housing.  by building or retro fitting our homes to super insulated, we can cut our heating/cooling cost by about 90% (compared to a normally insulated home).  Matt Ferrell, another utuber, has a good vid on this, others do also.  this reduction in energy use can be applied to larger buildings such as those used by businesses.  these upgrade costs pay themselves back in 5 years, if their numbers are to be believed.  Matt has a vid on the ZnBr battery, if I remember correctly.

another vid talked about person cooling his home while he slept (I have forgotten his name). his point was to save money during off peak costs of electricity generation, but a person would also be cooling a home (or business) during coolest part of the night (he was doing 10pm to 3am).  the only drawback in his mind was getting up to a chilly house.

isn't the Gigafactory one of those carbon neutral buildings?
"All energy used in the facility will be drawn from sustainable sources. The largest source of energy will be the building’s own roof, which will be totally coated in solar panels."
https://architizer.com/blog/inspiration/stories/10-facts-about-elon-musks-gigafactory-the-soon-to-be-largest-building-in-the-world/

a more holistic approach might be better than thinking that we need to build more capacity.

[WestCoast]

Bodine, right now, there is no viable solution to the issue of energy costs. With the possible exception of nuclear.

Low EROI is a particular manifestation of a more general problem.

Fully concur, Andrew. Especially with an eternal growing population, on an overly indulging global society who will likely refuse, or depart from, any material affluence we've all grown to rely on. I doubt any improvement to EROIs any time soon, IMO, seem silly.

Nuclear? Maybe, but not yet. Dunno. We do not have a full understand of the 'what if' all our energy source comes solely via nuclear, and what actual implication that may ultimately prove to be. IIMN, the total percentage of global nuclear low carbon power is at less than 30% - yet we've witness more than a few catastrophic ills we've experience thus far. Imagine a 100% reliance.

as one example....Robert Murray-Smith is a utube person that discusses energy matters.  batteries, generating and costs of such things.  perhaps more geared for the individual rather than large scale.  sometimes simple explanations others more thought provoking.  Zinc Bromine batteries come to mind for stationary storage.  simple, cheap and safe easy recycle

one of the biggest impacts we as individuals can have is in our housing.  by building or retro fitting our homes to super insulated, we can cut our heating/cooling cost by about 90% (compared to a normally insulated home).  Matt Ferrell, another utuber, has a good vid on this, others do also.  this reduction in energy use can be applied to larger buildings such as those used by businesses.  these upgrade costs pay themselves back in 5 years, if their numbers are to be believed.  Matt has a vid on the ZnBr battery, if I remember correctly.

another vid talked about person cooling his home while he slept (I have forgotten his name). his point was to save money during off peak costs of electricity generation, but a person would also be cooling a home (or business) during coolest part of the night (he was doing 10pm to 3am).  the only drawback in his mind was getting up to a chilly house.

isn't the Gigafactory one of those carbon neutral buildings?
"All energy used in the facility will be drawn from sustainable sources. The largest source of energy will be the building’s own roof, which will be totally coated in solar panels."
https://architizer.com/blog/inspiration/stories/10-facts-about-elon-musks-gigafactory-the-soon-to-be-largest-building-in-the-world/

a more holistic approach might be better than thinking that we need to build more capacity.

One of the many problems with super insulating a home is the age of the home. The average age of homes in the US is about 37 years. In the northeast it's about 57 years. How easy is it going to be to insulate homes that old? Can it be done at a reasonable cost? Will it add value to the home? Will it add comfort to the home? Can the home owner afford it at any cost? Are there government rebate programs for insulation?

https://buyersask.com/articles-of-interest/age-of-houses-in-the-us-whats-the-average-age/

[jseddy]

Fully concur, Andrew. Especially with an eternal growing population, on an overly indulging global society who will likely refuse, or depart from, any material affluence we've all grown to rely on. I doubt any improvement to EROIs any time soon, IMO, seem silly.

Those things are going to be changing. Quick example, expect insurance companies to quit offering policies to coastal homes. I know a bunch of them scam people out of hurricane damage but how long is that a buisness model?

[Jonas!]

One of the many problems with super insulating a home is the age of the home. The average age of homes in the US is about 37 years. In the northeast it's about 57 years. How easy is it going to be to insulate homes that old? Can it be done at a reasonable cost? Will it add value to the home? Will it add comfort to the home? Can the home owner afford it at any cost? Are there government rebate programs for insulation?

We sent 40-50 billion to Ukraine, so if we have money to do that, then I think we have 40-50 billion to super insulate a lot of homes.  If the superinsulation costs $5,000 a pop US could probably insulate 10 million homes.   That is what I'd call putting America first.

Jonas!   

[Texan77]

We sent 40-50 billion to Ukraine, so ...

They are planning to send 40 to 50 billion to Ukraine in future, but it is just now working its way thru congress. So far, nowhere near that and over half of that not military aid. 

[rosco]

We sent 40-50 billion to Ukraine, so ...

They are planning to send 40 to 50 billion to Ukraine in future, but it is just now working its way thru congress. So far, nowhere near that and over half of that not military aid.

You lot might be sending it but I can assure you, the US will be getting a turn for it.

[Texan77]

We sent 40-50 billion to Ukraine, so ...

They are planning to send 40 to 50 billion to Ukraine in future, but it is just now working its way thru congress. So far, nowhere near that and over half of that not military aid.

You lot might be sending it but I can assure you, the US will be getting a turn for it.

I have no idea what this means. Russia spends over a billion dollars a week to fight this war. It is going to cost something on that order to return the fight. So what is this turn the west is going to get? It is just like WW2 we get a return when we stop the NAZIs and now it is the same thing when we stop the Nazis in Russia. The return is Business will go back to normal and everyone is able to make money just like it has worked out since ww2. USA companies like companies all over Europe and even China will make more money because the world will do more business.

Back then we did this same type of support of Russia which was a big part of Russia being so successful in the east. WE now spend 800 billion dollars on military to protect ourselves from mainly Russia and China so we should be able to find this small sum to reduce the threat from one of those nations. It is less than 5 per cent of the military buget when Russia is spending nearly all of its budget on this.

When the price of gas was low notice there was no big war because Russia simply could not afford it. When the price of oil and gas went up now the Russia shows it true Nazi nature and invades Ukraine.  Europe sends Russia a billion dollars a week and that is what Russia spends on the war. Russia not likely able to keep this up for very many years even when they receive this money from Europe because long term they will not be able to pay for roads, health care and pensions in Russia. 

Long term there will be a payout for Nato for the war. This is because we will not have to pay for as much military equipment for Nato over the Russian threat. It is to Nato's benefit if the Nazis in Russia destroys the country over Ukraine. If Russia wanted to be a business partner instead of a Nazi nation we would not be in this place.

[AvHdB]

The comments of Tex are copied to the Russian losses thread.

[rosco]

We sent 40-50 billion to Ukraine, so ...

You lot might be sending it but I can assure you, the US will be getting a turn for it.

I have no idea what this means.

It means that the US isn't doing it out of goodness and there will be a return on the investment.

[rosco]

It is just like WW2 we get a return when we stop the NAZIs and now it is the same thing when we stop the Nazis in Russia.

I hope you're getting the necessary care & attention you need. At least here on RUA, we're seasoned when it comes to dealing with people like you.

[2tallbill]

I have no idea what this means.

This is the illegal immigration thread. Please explain how anything you've posted
is related to that.

I started this thread because a different group of Yahoo's couldn't stay on topic.
I am sure you can find a thread where your posts are more relevant.

[2tallbill]

What is there to understand?  I don't have a number to give you, and choose not to make a number up.  I am stating we need more immigration. 

There is a lot to understand. Clearly we don't need more than a quarter
million per month in illegal immigrants.

"Border Patrol officers have encountered record numbers of migrants trying to
cross the southern border during the past year, with 239,416 recorded last
month and 235,478 the month before that.₁"




1. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/migrant-encounters-southern-border-record-may