Ukrainian Losses

[Texan77]

The wars are a drain on the system not a benefit except to a very few. The war causes the dollar to lose values not support its value. Look at what happened during the Viet Nam war and the value of the US dollar. We had to go off the gold standard and had massive inflation in the early 1970 caused by the war. The other wars are just too small to affect the value of the dollar. But still, it is dropping in value mainly because aging population makes balancing the budget nearly impossible. The problem is this is not just a USA problem as this is happening in most of the industrialized world including Russia and China.  There is no different between the USA dollar value and wars than Russia and its war in Ukraine. Look and see what the war did to value of ruble.  You go back to when Russia started this mess in 2014 to present and you see it is not a benefit. Yes, every able body man in Russia has a job if he wants one. On the other hand, Russian assets are being drained. It was not until about the fifth year of the Viet Nam war that the damage to the US dollar was apparent and the huge recession set in that the war caused.

I was just using GPT doing some work and reading this, so I posed this question for fun: "Can you explain the premise that the USA needs constant war in order to feed its military-industrial complex and stop the dollar losing value?"

And AI or not, it knows:

[Faux Pas]

The wars are a drain on the system not a benefit except to a very few. The war causes the dollar to lose values not support its value. Look at what happened during the Viet Nam war and the value of the US dollar. We had to go off the gold standard and had massive inflation in the early 1970 caused by the war. The other wars are just too small to affect the value of the dollar. But still, it is dropping in value mainly because aging population makes balancing the budget nearly impossible. The problem is this is not just a USA problem as this is happening in most of the industrialized world including Russia and China.  There is no different between the USA dollar value and wars than Russia and its war in Ukraine. Look and see what the war did to value of ruble.  You go back to when Russia started this mess in 2014 to present and you see it is not a benefit. Yes, every able body man in Russia has a job if he wants one. On the other hand, Russian assets are being drained. It was not until about the fifth year of the Viet Nam war that the damage to the US dollar was apparent and the huge recession set in that the war caused.

Tex you're trying too hard to over complicate a relatively simple question. Occam's razor applies here. Inflation is the quiet but effective way for the government to transfer wealth from the people to themselves without raising taxes. The US ended the gold standard to allow it to print money unfettered as a way to develop the illusion of wealth and allow those in control to steal and finance anything they wish. In short, it allowed corruption to flourish.

[Markje]

Ofc, but Russia doesn't get a veto over who joins NATO.  If Putin's goal was for no more NATO expansion then he has failed miserably. He managed to frighten both Sweden and Finland right into NATO's arms. 

B/B

Im in danger of repeating myself: the level of death&destruction currently applied by Russia to persuade Ukraine not to join NATO suggests otherwise.

Putin's goals were never about finland/sweden, he just didn't want Ukraine in NATO , seeing as that would amount to a HUGE border with NATO-allied country all of the sudden.

[B.B.]

Im in danger of repeating myself: the level of death&destruction currently applied by Russia to persuade Ukraine not to join NATO suggests otherwise.

And yet, two more nations have joined NATO, with likely more (other than Ukraine) in the offing.  Russia's border with NATO has now DOUBLED in length. 

That's a pretty big fail, Mark.

Putin's goals were never about finland/sweden, he just didn't want Ukraine in NATO , seeing as that would amount to a HUGE border with NATO-allied country all of the sudden.

Yes, yes, "Putin's goals were never...." 

Were never what?  WIN?  Because for a guy with such an allegedly studly military - I guess we can reassess THAT now - he's not doing very well.

And re-read that bolded part again.  He's got a long-ass border with NATO, now, doesn't he?  Oopsy.  Putin has really screwed the pooch on this. 

His military has been exposed.  He has lost 50% of his tank fleet without NATO firing a shot.  He has done more to unite NATO since Lester B. Pearson, the Canadian statesman who thought it up. He has amply demonstrated to everyone in the neighborhood why they NEED to be in NATO.

So yeah, the "But this was never Putin's goal" rings pretty hollow. 

B/B

[rosco]

Ofc, but Russia doesn't get a veto over who joins NATO.  If Putin's goal was for no more NATO expansion then he has failed miserably. He managed to frighten both Sweden and Finland right into NATO's arms. 

B/B

Im in danger of repeating myself: the level of death&destruction currently applied by Russia to persuade Ukraine not to join NATO suggests otherwise.

Putin's goals were never about finland/sweden, he just didn't want Ukraine in NATO , seeing as that would amount to a HUGE border with NATO-allied country all of the sudden.

I think B/B's confusing himself with NATO expansion. It's not the member count that bothers Russia, it's the geography. Pretty simple stuff unless you really try hard to justify the provocation.

[rosco]

"It is the acme of professionalism to use Ukraine to fight Russia because that takes a strategic adversary off the table, without using any US troops. We can then focus on our primary adversary which is China at this time"

https://www.tiktok.com/@itallstartswithin/video/7357380310775926021?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7331901362584995361

At least they're now admitting that this is a staged proxy war. The US is obsessed with waging war around the world as part of it strategy and its completely unacceptable.

[AvHdB]

seeing as that would amount to a HUGE border with NATO-allied country all of the sudden.

Maps are good things especially if one can read them.
The Russian land border with Finland is about 1,300 kilometers long. The Russian Ukraine border is about 1,900 kilometers long.

[B.B.]

I think B/B's confusing himself with NATO expansion. It's not the member count that bothers Russia, it's the geography. Pretty simple stuff unless you really try hard to justify the provocation.

B/B is far from confused.  Putin made a critical, pivotal error.  Russia got away with annexing Crimea and some of the eastern lands, but he overstepped, united and expanded NATO and now he's forging a much stronger national identity in Ukraine that is never going to forget that what he did to them.

B/B

[sparky114]

Ukrainian Generals are saying they will lose now, and is even being written in western media now of how a loss will look like in terms of land borders 
Something us that live very close have known since the failed summer push last year that did not happen Just a matter of time
I wonder how history in the Future will write about that.

[Markje]

seeing as that would amount to a HUGE border with NATO-allied country all of the sudden.

Maps are good things especially if one can read them.
The Russian land border with Finland is about 1,300 kilometers long.

If they give up the "top" with murmansk in it (fat chance) they will have to defend only 400km... whereas the border with Ukraine will never get shorter.

[BC]

B/B is far from confused.  Putin made a critical, pivotal error.  Russia got away with annexing Crimea and some of the eastern lands, but he overstepped, united and expanded NATO and now he's forging a much stronger national identity in Ukraine that is never going to forget that what he did to them.

B/B

... and the West gained much insight into the RU military's actual capabilities and weaknesses, along with learning what works and what doesn't against its forces. It also received a heads-up that arms manufacturing capabilities must be beefed up. New military arms programs as well.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/unmanned/uas/2023/07/31/us-army-developing-lasso-tank-killing-drone-for-infantry/
https://thedebrief.org/darpas-new-rema-program-is-turning-ordinary-drones-into-autonomous-killing-machines-kind-of/

[2tallbill]

Putin's goals were never about finland/sweden, he just didn't want Ukraine in NATO , seeing as that would amount to a HUGE border with NATO-allied country all of the sudden.

Lets talk about what we all know to be true.

Ukraine isn't ever joining NATO AND 
Putin didn't want Finland or Sweden to join NATO either AND

Putin didn't arrange the Moscow Crocus Concert hall shooting/bombing

AND

The USA didn't participate either.

[Texan77]

Ukraine aid bill passes house. Now to senate. If not amended, then to Bidden. It will provide Ukraine limited amount of ammo and weapons. Likely enough to stop Russian advances but not enough to start any new offenses. 

[Markje]

Ukraine aid bill passes house. Now to senate. If not amended, then to Bidden. It will provide Ukraine limited amount of ammo and weapons. Likely enough to stop Russian advances but not enough to start any new offenses. 

More dead people without any real chance of winning this war.

[Markje]

Ok, this is rather funny.

The USA finally approved the 60 Billion dollar aid package and zelensky reacted to that.

Zelenskiy assures Ukrainians of victory with US aid in the balance

Kiev, Dec 6 (Reuters) - President Volodymyr Zelenskiy told Ukrainians on Wednesday that Kiev would defeat Russia and win a fair peace "against all odds" as the future of vital U.S. military and financial aid hung in the balance.

The man truly is delusional AND even better:

https://www.telegraaf.nl
Washington staat achter Kiev en Oekraïne zal niet "een tweede Afghanistan" worden, aldus de president.

Ummm, didn't you realize mr. Prez, that Russia LOST in Afghanistan? So you'd better hope you WILL be a second one.

[Texan77]

Ukraine aid bill passes house. Now to senate. If not amended, then to Bidden. It will provide Ukraine limited amount of ammo and weapons. Likely enough to stop Russian advances but not enough to start any new offenses. 

More dead people without any real chance of winning this war.

It is like Afghanistan. One day Russia will figure out there is no real reason for the war and go home. Likely going to take a few more years as we are not close to being there yet.

[Markje]

It is like Afghanistan. One day Russia will figure out there is no real reason for the war and go home. Likely going to take a few more years as we are not close to being there yet.

Thats not happening. Russia does not want Ukraine in NATO. As long as they don't agree on this point, the war will continue.

(Ukraine in a pro-western EU setting was not a problem , for the confused membership. Russia simply said if you deal with the EU, you can no longer get any discounts from Russia. Which in turn led to the removal of Yanu whom saw the EU then in a worse light then continuing with Russia.)

[Bodine]

Crazy. Just crazy…

[rosco]

Crazy. Just crazy…

It is just absolute madness and many people continue to be poorly informed (which they shouldn't be given all the access they have at their finger tips), they're disconnected or they're a shill. The government smokescreen along with a compliant media, have done an amazing job hoodwinking much of the western public, in order to get the green light for this complete mess.

I cant believe it's 2024 and some people still focus their emotions and rage at Putin rather than our own leaders. They'll continue to bark up the wrong tree, waving their Ukrainian flags irrespective of how they're educated and informed.

[rosco]

It is like Afghanistan. One day Russia will figure out there is no real reason for the war and go home. Likely going to take a few more years as we are not close to being there yet.

That's completely fanciful and unrealistic but a predictable statement from someone who doesn't know what's really going on around them.

Russia have been fighting for over two years now, at great cost and have fairly solid control over the vast majority of the ethnic Russian regions in the East and Crimea. They continue to make up ground on a daily basis and I suspect they'll stop when they have full control over these oblasts. The new US funding isn't enough for Ukraine to win but merely drags out the death and destruction for a little longer.

Russia can't and wont go home but they don't want to occupy the whole country. Yes some people like you think Putin will roll onto the next country if we give him Ukraine but that's just one of the strap lines used by the pro war Western leaders, to keep the poorly educated and simpletons in line.

As Mark also pointed out, Russia cant and wont let Ukraine join NATO because they see this as a direct threat to their existence. They can join the EU and become our burden but having US troops parked up in ethnic Russian Ukrainian soil will never happen.

[Texan77]

It is like Afghanistan. One day Russia will figure out there is no real reason for the war and go home. Likely going to take a few more years as we are not close to being there yet.

Thats not happening. Russia does not want Ukraine in NATO. As long as they don't agree on this point, the war will continue.

(Ukraine in a pro-western EU setting was not a problem , for the confused membership. Russia simply said if you deal with the EU, you can no longer get any discounts from Russia. Which in turn led to the removal of Yanu whom saw the EU then in a worse light then continuing with Russia.)

You sure get a lot of what happened with Yama wrong. The trouble now is Russia had a chance to keep Ukraine out of Nato but those days are over. Now no peace treaty unless Ukraine is part of Nato. So, the war goes on. Ukraine being part of Nato will not do anything to Russia. It is only a defensive pack which a member country has to be attacked for a joint response. What this does stop Russia's future expansion plans. Gee Finland is a bigger problem to Russian security than Ukraine but Russia still survived. It is just no one wants to invade Russia it is only Russia that want to invade other countries. Even Russian TV often saids what country should be after Ukraine.

[Markje]

Ukraine being part of Nato will not do anything to Russia. It is only a defensive pack which a member country has to be attacked for a joint response.

Tell that to Yugoslavia. It ceased to exist WITHOUT attacking any NATO country. Putin specificly remarked that he began to see NATO as an agressive military block when he witnessed that event.

Never mind that Kosovo was a good enough reason to want to do so, they should have first attained the UN's permission and they didn't. It is also still a huge trauma for the Netherlands, because of sbrenica.

[rosco]

The trouble now is Russia had a chance to keep Ukraine out of Nato but those days are over.

Can you remind me about this one?

Now no peace treaty unless Ukraine is part of Nato. So, the war goes on.

Highly unlikely.

Ukraine has been given more kit to keep the war going, there's more money to wash and the military industrial complex helps keep the US economy afloat for now....but Ukraine will never defeat Russia and push them out of Crimea or the East. I cant see endless billons being pumped into Ukraine from the West forever but Russia will dig in and protect what they have, if they're unable to move the front lines West.

If Ukraine joins NATO, it'll be when they've lost half their land and a buffer zone for Russia is in place. Call it stalemate and the start of a very long polarised cold war between the West and BRICS members. I still think Russia will slog it out until the US pull the rug and runs home like they did in Afghanistan.

Ukraine being part of Nato will not do anything to Russia. It is only a defensive pack which a member country has to be attacked for a joint response.

Absolute rubbish. If Ukraine were to join NATO, US troops would be swarming about the Russian border looking to provoke a response, as they do in every other NATO member state.

What this does stop Russia's future expansion plans. It is just no one wants to invade Russia it is only Russia that want to invade other countries.

 

[andrewfi]

Texan, please remind us of which countries NATO has invaded. Just to confirm that we both understand what you have written.

[Texan77]

Please wake up to the number of countries Russia has invaded before Ukraine. It is a long list.