Nazis in Ukraine - Denazification.

[Manny]

As of now, it appears that the president is willing to discuss all of the points the Russians are pushing with the exception of denazification - which from Zelenskiys point of view is probably a death warrant. Is it one or two of the original negotiating team who are now dead with a bullet in the head?

This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I did see on Twitter the other day that one of the negotiating team had been threatened and then killed, I didn't post it as I wasn't terribly sure of the source (an example to Contrarian and Tex, but I digress). The background I read to it was the negotiator was threatened by the very influential Nazi element (that some here deny exist) to do their bidding, not give in to demand X or some such. It seems the bloke didn't do as he was told and they killed him.

So it would seem that the Nazis are trying to influence the negotiating process from behind the scenes. Zelensky can't outright condemn them or they'll kill him too. So if he prevaricates and lets Russia do it, everyone wins.

[Gipsy]

As of now, it appears that the president is willing to discuss all of the points the Russians are pushing with the exception of denazification - which from Zelenskiys point of view is probably a death warrant. Is it one or two of the original negotiating team who are now dead with a bullet in the head?

This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I did see on Twitter the other day that one of the negotiating team had been threatened and then killed, I didn't post it as I wasn't terribly sure of the source (an example to Contrarian and Tex, but I digress). The background I read to it was the negotiator was threatened by the very influential Nazi element (that some here deny exist) to do their bidding, not give in to demand X or some such. It seems the bloke didn't do as he was told and they killed him.

So it would seem that the Nazis are trying to influence the negotiating process from behind the scenes. Zelensky can't outright condemn them or they'll kill him too. So if he prevaricates and lets Russia do it, everyone wins.

Denied by the Ukrainian supporters here, even when there is evidence and not fake news..

The video about children being nazified is especially disgusting..

[Contrarian]

Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

[Gipsy]

Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..

[2tallbill]

This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I asked you to do this earlier, but you need to define what you mean as
Nazi's. Please define Nazi's for the purpose of this debate/conversation.

Nazi's are far left extremists to the right of communists and socialists
and to the left of liberals. They believe in command and control by of
state and to have considerable State/Business interaction and unified
and singular purpose.

With the exception of their racism they should feel right at home
with the Green party in every European country.

Nationalism or pride in ones country, history or achievements is not
a characteristic unique to Nazi's. China's communist government is an
example of a country that fosters extreme nationalism at the Olympics
and elsewhere.

So what is your opinion on what constitutes Nazi's? What are their ideals,
goals, desires?

[andrewfi]

Yes, the one I am sure about has been corroborated by the Ukrainian government.

Apparently, he was shot in the head as he 'resisted arrest' by the SBU. He was being 'arrested' for treason. It is odd that a single shot to the head was required to complete the arrest. Even USAian police do not go for a head shot in such circumstances, they understand that while fatal, a shot to the head is harder to pull off than a body shot - with the benefit that the perp might actually survive the arrest.

A cynic, and everyone knows I am not a cynic, might think it was an extrajudicial execution. For sure it is bound to have the secondary (if not primary) effect of stiffening the president's resolve. To that end, it makes me a little less concerned about the possibility of Zelenskiy being in US custody in Poland. Although, the USAian track record on assassination is not a good one I think that they might be just a tad less reckless than some of Zelenskiy's erstwhile colleagues and staff.

Bill, to help you out because you do seem a tad confused. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is very probably a duck.

However, as a guide to help you, no matter the name of the National Socialist party, often referred to as the NAZI party (which is an acronym from the German name) the party was not a socialist party, at least not in the form by which the ruling party in Germany during the war was seen. By 1934 and afterwards the policies of the party and government appealed strongly to industrialists and owners of capital. It was this grouping who provided much of the financial support and practical backing for the party -oddly enough very similar to the Nazi or neo-Nazi organisations in Ukraine. 

So, yeah, quack, quack!

[2tallbill]

Young pioneers marching in Moscow

[2tallbill]

Young Pioneers in Russia during communism
Source TASS




 "The organization is remembered fondly today by millions of people from all over
the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe not so much as a brainwashing
system (though instilling patriotism and ideological education was part of the reason behind the creation of all such youth organizations) but as part of their growing up, where they made friends and became dynamic young souls. "

Source RT Russiapedia
https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/pioneers/

[2tallbill]

Modern Chinese nationalism and the awakening of self-consciousness of the Chinese Nation
https://ijae.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s41257-019-0026-6

Everyday Nationalism and Authoritarian Rule: A Case Study of North Korea
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/everyday-nationalism-and-authoritarian-rule-a-case-study-of-north-korea/861FBD98F17C36F50770291CFBD15348

[Gipsy]

Young Pioneers in Russia during communism
Source TASS




 "The organization is remembered fondly today by millions of people from all over
the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe not so much as a brainwashing
system (though instilling patriotism and ideological education was part of the reason behind the creation of all such youth organizations) but as part of their growing up, where they made friends and became dynamic young souls. "

Source RT Russiapedia
https://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/pioneers/

There is a massive difference between Pioneers of yesteryear and Pioneers of today, they are very similar to the GG movement..
A man of your intellect level should have known/realized that, instead of posting something so stupid obviously in an attempt to challenge my previously posted videos...
It would have been more interesting if you had posted evidence to contradict me, rather than posting such "Whataboutism" claptrap...

[Manny]

This is an interesting bit we haven't discussed.

I asked you to do this earlier, but you need to define what you mean as
Nazi's. Please define Nazi's for the purpose of this debate/conversation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

[Contrarian]

Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..

Why don't you first define "Nazify" the children.

This is and has been a baseless claim by Russian Nationalists. You know, the same Nationalists who say "Russia for Russians".

As 2TallBill has pointed out, the Communist youth camps are very similar, almost completely similar, to the "Nazi" youth camps.

Back when Hitler invaded Poland and the Sudentenland, he said that he had to protect "ethnic Germans and ethnic German speakers."

Quite frankly he had a more legitimate claim in saying that, than Putin has had in claiming the same thing as his rational for invading Ukraine and annexing Crimea, then his attempts to annex the Donbas.

However this sort of activity was denounced after WWII and Europe agreed not to rewrite the boundaries of a country in these sort of disputes. Blood was shed in order to come to that conclusion.

But what has happened? A guy who is bitter, angry and jealous that the Soviet Union caved in, wants his delusional fantasy of the old World back.

He doesn't like those kulaks in Ukraine having the nerve to want Democracy. He doesn't like free will and he certainly doesn't like Freedom or Liberty; call it what you will.

So he makes up childish labels, labels which could easily be pinned on many in Russia.

He doesn't like the Ukrainians working hard and owning companies and businesses, he wants to seize those companies and businesses after invading Ukraine and starting the first War on European soil in nearly 100 years.

So he will claim he has "denazified" Ukraine, after he gives all those businesses and companies to his favorite carpet baggers.

Russia has a large country, the largest in the World with amazing resources. But for someone who is angry, bitter and jealous it isn't enough, it never is.

So instead he starts a war, kills thousands of civilians and causes over a Million refugees in Europe. He makes his own country into a pariah on the World stage and he makes baseless accusations and labels on those who he wishes to steal from.

Many experts in the West have said, this is the beginning of the end of Putin. I give it 3 years and he will be gone. Ukrainians and Russians and Europeans and really the whole world will suffer needlessly to fuel the ambitions of a Soviet relic until then.

[NS1]

Easy Manny, tell Putin, to tell his Nazi buddies he installed in the east to go back to Russian
and Ukraine is denazified. Then the war can be over.

[Contrarian]

Easy Manny, tell Putin, to tell his Nazi buddies he installed in the east to go back to Russian
and Ukraine is denazified. Then the war can be over.

Simples!


And tell all of the Russian carpet baggers, who stole businesses in the Crimea, to give them back.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world/europe/crimea-annexation-russia-ukraine.html

[AJ]

Children being "nazified" looks no different at all from Russian military summer camps. If the Russians are chauvinist and nationalistic that's all good. But if the Ukrainians are the least bit nationalist, they get condemned. Keep grasping at straws.


https://www.dw.com/en/russian-kids-play-war-in-military-summer-camps/a-44857423


https://time.com/4516808/inside-russias-military-training-schools-for-teens/

Military training schools in Russia do not Nazify the children, that is my point...
The video posted is from a training camp run by the Azov battalion...
Try a little lateral thinking, it will help you understand more what is posted by anyone..

Yes its absolutely horrible.

Regardless ,
The use of this Battalion as a reason to invade Ukraine
Falls apart with russian supported Sparta  Battalion and WaGner PMC.
Wagner being used in Donbas.

Donbas  and  invasion into.mairipol was the spark  of reason the azov militia was even formed initially.

[Contrarian]

Easy Manny, tell Putin, to tell his Nazi buddies he installed in the east to go back to Russian
and Ukraine is denazified. Then the war can be over.

First, he needs permission from one of his advisors. 

[2tallbill]

There is a massive difference between Pioneers of yesteryear and Pioneers of today, they are very similar to the GG movement..
A man of your intellect level should have known/realized that, instead of posting something so stupid obviously in an attempt to challenge my previously posted videos...
It would have been more interesting if you had posted evidence to contradict me, rather than posting such "Whataboutism" claptrap...

For starters you have totally misunderstood the purpose of my post(s).
I want people to define what Nazi's mean before debating further

I have had the argument a thousand times that Nazi's are left wing nutjobs
rather than right wing nutjobs. I asked Manny (and others) to define what
the f#ck they think Nazi's are.

One of the very first arguments that people make trying to define Nazi is
that they are patriotic/nationalistic.

Now read this.

I posted photos to show that left wing governments are patriotic/nationalistic
all the time.

I didn't even review your stuff, so my photos and posts were in reference to
me and my posts rather than to debate either you or your posts.

[Gipsy]

There is a massive difference between Pioneers of yesteryear and Pioneers of today, they are very similar to the GG movement..
A man of your intellect level should have known/realized that, instead of posting something so stupid obviously in an attempt to challenge my previously posted videos...
It would have been more interesting if you had posted evidence to contradict me, rather than posting such "Whataboutism" claptrap...

For starters you have totally misunderstood the purpose of my post(s).
I want people to define what Nazi's mean before debating further

I have had the argument a thousand times that Nazi's are left wing nutjobs
rather than right wing nutjobs. I asked Manny (and others) to define what
the f#ck they think Nazi's are.

One of the very first arguments that people make trying to define Nazi is
that they are patriotic/nationalistic.

Now read this.

I posted photos to show that left wing governments are patriotic/nationalistic
all the time.

I didn't even review your stuff, so my photos and posts were in reference to
me and my posts rather than to debate either you or your posts.

Agreed, with the addition of white supremacist's, Nationalistic, xenophobic, racial hatred nut jobs IMHO..

[AvHdB]

To answer the question that Bill posses, personally I see the reality that those on the political spectrum are not unlike a clock, Nazism and Communism are 10 minutes before or after midnight.

There is in my opinion a subtle difference between Nazism or Fascism and Communism the two former are driven by an individual where as Communism is driven in theory by a party or group.

Simply stated it is a battle between evil and good. Please understand that Democracy and Capitalism in my opinion are far from perfect or ideal.

[NS1]

Only real Nazi here is Putin himself
look at his play book, write  out of Hilters diaries.

[AJ]

....
But Pro Russian folks here don't have an orignal thought
what ever Putin says, they push that narrative.
The end, "thats all folks"

It's interesting several neo nazi elements  initialized in 2014 over donbass. No?

2 Russian groups,  Sparta Battalion and the Russian funded Wagner pmc,
And the Ukrainian  militia azov battalion.


Both sides of the conflict.

I suppose it would take 5,instead if 2,  on the Russian side to.offest one on.the Ukrainian side in some.peoples minds?

Perhaps it might be interesting that Wagner heavily recruited  ukrainians in Crimea and donbas during that time and the last 8 years.
In September 21 they started refusing any recruit from donbas or Crimea.
Perhaps no longer useful idiots?

 
 

[2tallbill]

Bill, to help you out because you do seem a tad confused. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is very probably a duck.

It makes sense to make sure what we are debating. You often say, if you don't
know ask, but in this case you would prefer to act like a twat. You are more than
capable of debating using facts, history and reasoning. No need to be a twat.

However, as a guide to help you, no matter the name of the National Socialist party,
often referred to as the NAZI party (which is an acronym from the German name)
the party was not a socialist party, at least not in the form by which the ruling
party in Germany during the war was seen. By 1934 and afterwards the policies
of the party and government appealed strongly to industrialists and owners of capital.

Yes, this is nearly exactly like the modern left wing parties of the West.
They engage woke corporations and woke rich people, offer them preferential
treatment from government in exchange for money, favors and political
donations etc. The modern left wing parties are total Nazi's.

You made no mention of the racist or superiority complexes of the old day
Nazi's. I don't want to assume your opinion on that, so please clarify that
if is a component in your opinion of the modern day "Nazi's."

It was this grouping who provided much of the financial support and practical backing for the party -oddly enough very similar to the Nazi or neo-Nazi organisations in Ukraine. 

The primary differences is that the Old Nazi's in Germany were mostly legitimate
businesses and made money producing things. While the Nazi's in both Ukraine
and Russia are mobsters and old KGB henchmen/klepto oligarchs, who stole their
companies and resources then siphon money off from various industries. They
engage in murder and mayhem and are every bit as prevalent in Russia as they
are in Ukraine.

Is it possible that the Russian Mobster Nazi oligarchs just wanted to steal industries
and businesses from the Ukrainian Mobster oligarchs? And Russia went to war to
make that happen?

Or did you have a different definition of the kleptocracy presiding in both Russia
and Ukraine. They are pots calling each other's kettle black.   

Also are you speaking with confidence that is what Manny meant by Nazi's? or
is it only you who define it this way?

[Contrarian]

Bill, to help you out because you do seem a tad confused. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is very probably a duck.

It makes sense to make sure what we are debating. You often say, if you don't
know ask, but in this case you would prefer to act like a twat. You are more than
capable of debating using facts, history and reasoning. No need to be a twat.

However, as a guide to help you, no matter the name of the National Socialist party,
often referred to as the NAZI party (which is an acronym from the German name)
the party was not a socialist party, at least not in the form by which the ruling
party in Germany during the war was seen. By 1934 and afterwards the policies
of the party and government appealed strongly to industrialists and owners of capital.

Yes, this is nearly exactly like the modern left wing parties of the West.
They engage woke corporations and woke rich people, offer them preferential
treatment from government in exchange for money, favors and political
donations etc. The modern left wing parties are total Nazi's.

You made no mention of the racist or superiority complexes of the old day
Nazi's. I don't want to assume your opinion on that, so please clarify that
if is a component in your opinion of the modern day "Nazi's."

It was this grouping who provided much of the financial support and practical backing for the party -oddly enough very similar to the Nazi or neo-Nazi organisations in Ukraine. 

The primary differences is that the Old Nazi's in Germany were mostly legitimate
businesses and made money producing things. While the Nazi's in both Ukraine
and Russia are mobsters and old KGB henchmen/klepto oligarchs, who stole their
companies and resources then siphon money off from various industries. They
engage in murder and mayhem and are every bit as prevalent in Russia as they
are in Ukraine.

Is it possible that the Russian Mobster Nazi oligarchs just wanted to steal industries
and businesses from the Ukrainian Mobster oligarchs? And Russia went to war to
make that happen?

Or did you have a different definition of the kleptocracy presiding in both Russia
and Ukraine. They are pots calling each other's kettle black.   

Also are you speaking with confidence that is what Manny meant by Nazi's? or
is it only you who define it this way?

This.

And don't forget that the "old Nazi's in Germany were mostly legitimate businesses and made money producing things".

That's a real difficult one for dishonest thieves to acknowledge. 

[Manny]

Here's a delightful young lady I'm sure some of you would like to look up on VK.

In 2014, French magazine Elle featured Aidar Nazi Vita Zaverukha as the Ukrainian Joan of Arc fighting against Russia.

Zaverukha is best known for her calls for genocide, posting videos of her shelling villages and for taking part in the Odessa Trade Unions House massacre.

There's some UK media coverage of her here: Teenage girl soldier hailed as Ukraine's 'Joan of Arc' by Elle magazine is revealed as neo-Nazi and is arrested over cop killing.

[2tallbill]

I answered you three days ago

I can produce photos of individuals and groups of Neo Nazi's in the UK,
in the USA, in Germany, in Canada and elsewhere. There are far larger
groups of communists in each of those countries including Russia and Ukraine. 

I asked you to define what it is, so that we can have a discussion or debate
if we disagree. It's impossible to debate somebody who refuses to define
terms that they use.

In Chemnitz Germany
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/daca1bbb0d91f7ae01e7d3b13c833aaa9b412eae/0_116_2707_1624/master/2707.jpg?width=600&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=2bddef33c3a7b698bd2f036aed6a9ade


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheworld.org%2Fstories%2F2014-01-29%2Fso-heres-why-germany-struggling-ban-neo-nazis&psig=AOvVaw1IFPgyonQyL0Jn0t7n4ZaG&ust=1647274717704000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=2ahUKEwjrnrjUvsP2AhXngokEHZ3ABGYQjRx6BAgAEAk


In the UK




In Canada



In the USA
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F2017%2Fdigital%2Fnews%2Fspotify-deezer-cd-baby-nazi-bands-1202531578%2F&psig=AOvVaw3e7IyFUEnp6NM4Eb_A4j2E&ust=1647275229141000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAkQjRxqFwoTCJjL7svAw_YCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE