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Author Topic: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!  (Read 3210 times)

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Online 2tallbill

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Another sanctimonious American. Spare me the guilt.

You believe that guilt was sent your way?


You would have needed a much bigger army than the one sent to Kiev and much more time as in months to possibly years to surround and take control of a city the size of Kiev according to my so-called expert. So no, it's not a try.

Team Putin miscalculated. That's not obvious?


Russia/Putin doesn't want to take over all of Ukraine, nor do they want to expand the operation to Poland or any other country.


You know this how?
FSUW are not for entry level daters. FSUW don't do vague FSUW like a man of action so be a man of action  If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane. There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.
Get an apartment not a hotel. DON'T recycle girls

Offline WestCoast

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2022, 02:33:44 PM »
Putin has shown he's not concerned about how many soldiers or military equipment he might lose to gain control of Ukraine.
 

Dude, this attitude is not unique to Putin. Last time I looked, he didn't grow up in the west.  :8)

Hmmm...
It is absolutely clear that this is not true. The strategy being employed clearly shows that this is untrue. I think this is a case of projection from whatever sources you're all relying upon to parrot the opinion.

The use of huge amounts of artillery and other stand-off weapons systems are designed to reduce casualties among the Russian forces.

Yet many western sources put Russian dead at about 15K, adding in the wounded and the numbers soar to 50K. That's more than were killed in Russia's years in Afghanistan.

I'm sure you stand beyond whatever numbers the Kremlin puts out even though it gives no reasons for the numbers.

The numbers of dead Russian soldiers has gotten so bad around Kiev that retreating Russian soldiers are leaving the dead behind to be collected by the Ukrainian military.


https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220517-young-poor-and-from-minorities-the-russian-troops-killed-in-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61571855
andrewfi says ''Proximity is almost no guarantee of authority" and "in many cases, distance gives a better picture with less emotional and subjective input."

That means I'm a subject matter expert on all things Russia, Ukraine and UK.

Online 2tallbill

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2022, 04:37:55 PM »
Nobody has suggested that its ok but those who understand what's going on, realise that Ukraine are fighting a battle they cannot win. If they cant win the battle and ultimately they're fighting for a better negotiating position, then launching long range missiles at Moscow is unlikely to end the conflict quickly or leave Ukraine in a better position.

But sure, go ahead and fire on Moscow and see what happens to Ukraine as a whole, rather than the South/East. It's not about what's fair right now, it's about what's sensible.

Ukraine was supposed to be whipped in a week or so. Hillary was supposed to beat
Donald Trump. I could go on and on. They don't fight battles on paper. The only way
to beat Ukraine is to beat them.

But sure, go ahead and fire on Moscow and see what happens to Ukraine as a whole, rather than the South/East. It's not about what's fair right now, it's about what's sensible.

I doubt anyone would fire on Moscow. But on a supply train bridge? On a resupply
boat in the Black Sea? Maybe that would make sense.
FSUW are not for entry level daters. FSUW don't do vague FSUW like a man of action so be a man of action  If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane. There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.
Get an apartment not a hotel. DON'T recycle girls


Offline Lon

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4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2022, 07:47:01 PM »
yes, I realize that the Russian troopers went in with a soft hand.  except for all the civilians killed.  I wonder what they think of that soft hand.

Another sanctimonious American. Spare me the guilt.

what guilt?  I was not trying to make you feel guilty or anyone else.  just pointing out the lie.


the attempt to surround Kiev, the capital of Ukraine.  that is not a 'try' to take all of Ukraine?  what would the landscape of the Ukraine be if that part of the  'special operation' had succeeded?

You would have needed a much bigger army than the one sent to Kiev and much more time as in months to possibly years to surround and take control of a city the size of Kiev according to my so-called expert. So no, it's not a try.

Russia/Putin doesn't want to take over all of Ukraine, nor do they want to expand the operation to Poland or any other country.

I don't care who your so-called Russian experts are, unless you're in the room with Putin, you're guessing.

needing a bigger army...hind sight is something isn't, now that the Russian military has been pushed out of the north.
of course proper tactics, a properly trained military, a military not robbed blind by oligarchs, etc.....and you would be singing a new tune.

Putin doesn't want to take over all of Ukraine....from Putin's lips to your ear I guess   :biggrin:   I said nothing about any other country.

who are your experts?  Alexsey Zhuravlyov and Olga Skabeyeva?  aren't these the two that are predicting the 500meter tidal wave over the UK?  or how many nuclear missiles will it take to wipe out the two coasts of America...4 Sarmet missiles...per your experts?
you might want to start watching western media for better experts.


Hey, I have an idea, why don't you (as in America) stop sending weapons to Ukraine, transferring another boatload of money to to a niche group of people i.e death merchants, selling out the future of the next 2-3 generations of Americans, try some diplomacy instead (oops, no money in that), and GTFO of this part of the world.

You know, because all you people care so much about Ukrainians.

here, I know, let us go back in history.  we as "America past" not send weapons and material to "Russia past",  just think how many Russians would still be alive from that "past".
but that did not happen, you know, because somebody cared so much about the Slavic peoples.  (try not to minimize the material support from the western world, it is a matter of record, and I and others can find it for you, including Stalins own words)

Offline Texan77

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You would have needed a much bigger army than the one sent to Kiev and much more time as in months to possibly years to surround and take control of a city the size of Kiev according to my so-called expert. So no, it's not a try.


It did not take that long in Bagdad when it was the USA. Russia was so out of it and believed their own propaganda. They thought there would be not war. Kiev would be just handed over to them. They actually had parade gear in some of the tanks. Russia lost so much material and weapons in Kiev they have never recovered. If the was a distraction it was one of the dumbest move any country ever made. There is so much corruption in Russia the convoy ran out of fuel because Russian soldiers were selling gas for Vodka. They had bad tires and maintenance because likely someone stole the money, Then the opposition in Belarus mess up the train signals so Russia resupplies did not arrive on a timely manner. The Russian General over the Kiev operation said it would only take 48 hours and this war would be over. Putin thought the people of Ukraine would rise to support him. Well that what he gets from reading RT news.
3) There has been no "threat" to invade Ukraine. The US invented that and fed it to a complicit media.

Offline Texan77

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2022, 10:54:24 PM »

here, I know, let us go back in history.  we as "America past" not send weapons and material to "Russia past",  just think how many Russians would still be alive from that "past".
but that did not happen, you know, because somebody cared so much about the Slavic peoples.  (try not to minimize the material support from the western world, it is a matter of record, and I and others can find it for you, including Stalins own words)

Yea if we would not of sent weapons their would not be many Russians as Germany would killed most of them. How do you guys think Russia turned the tide on Germany in ww2? Some how Russia has forgotten.

Putin said himself before the war wrote Ukraine should belong to Russia. The whole country. Now that he is not getting it everything changed.
3) There has been no "threat" to invade Ukraine. The US invented that and fed it to a complicit media.

Offline dorbradavid

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2022, 08:54:01 AM »

needing a bigger army...hind sight is something isn't, now that the Russian military has been pushed out of the north.
of course proper tactics, a properly trained military, a military not robbed blind by oligarchs, etc.....and you would be singing a new tune.

Putin doesn't want to take over all of Ukraine....from Putin's lips to your ear I guess   :biggrin:   I said nothing about any other country.

who are your experts?  Alexsey Zhuravlyov and Olga Skabeyeva?  aren't these the two that are predicting the 500meter tidal wave over the UK?  or how many nuclear missiles will it take to wipe out the two coasts of America...4 Sarmet missiles...per your experts?
you might want to start watching western media for better experts.


Hey, I have an idea, why don't you (as in America) stop sending weapons to Ukraine, transferring another boatload of money to to a niche group of people i.e death merchants, selling out the future of the next 2-3 generations of Americans, try some diplomacy instead (oops, no money in that), and GTFO of this part of the world.

You know, because all you people care so much about Ukrainians.

here, I know, let us go back in history.  we as "America past" not send weapons and material to "Russia past",  just think how many Russians would still be alive from that "past".
but that did not happen, you know, because somebody cared so much about the Slavic peoples.  (try not to minimize the material support from the western world, it is a matter of record, and I and others can find it for you, including Stalins own words)

Ok, WADR, saying Russia needs/needed a "bigger army" appears to be a simple demonstration of engaging your fingers before your brain.
Size is not the problem. Corruption (and professional competence is a subset of that) appears to be the problem.   tiphat
Dobra David

Online 2tallbill

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4 possible endings to this war, discuss!
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2022, 11:21:47 AM »
Hey, I have an idea, why don't you (as in America) stop sending weapons to Ukraine, transferring another boatload of money to to a niche group of people i.e death merchants, selling out the future of the next 2-3 generations of Americans, try some diplomacy instead (oops, no money in that), and GTFO of this part of the world.

You know, because all you people care so much about Ukrainians.

The Ukrainians can decide if they want our weapons. They should be
allowed to govern themselves.

Russia flew air missions against Americans in Korea. Russia provided
Vietcong with missiles and materiel to kill Americans, Russia gave money
weapons and death to Africa, South America and the world over. The cold
war is back, if it was ever over.

The Soviet rules will be back as well. Soon Russian girls will lose their freedom
to travel abroad or to move away.

FSUW are not for entry level daters. FSUW don't do vague FSUW like a man of action so be a man of action  If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane. There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.
Get an apartment not a hotel. DON'T recycle girls

Offline Lon

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4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2022, 06:44:56 PM »
needing a bigger army...hind sight is something isn't, now that the Russian military has been pushed out of the north.
of course proper tactics, a properly trained military, a military not robbed blind by oligarchs, etc.....and you would be singing a new tune.

Ok, WADR, saying Russia needs/needed a "bigger army" appears to be a simple demonstration of engaging your fingers before your brain.
Size is not the problem. Corruption (and professional competence is a subset of that) appears to be the problem.   tiphat

'needing a bigger army' was from Danchik originally, not me

Online AvHdB

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2022, 07:33:17 PM »
needing a bigger army...hind sight is something isn't, now that the Russian military has been pushed out of the north.
of course proper tactics, a properly trained military, a military not robbed blind by oligarchs, etc.....and you wouldbe singing a new tune.

Ok, WADR, saying Russia needs/needed a "bigger army" appears to be a simple demonstration of engaging your fingers before your brain.
Size is not the problem. Corruption (and professional competence is a subset of that) appears to be the problem.   tiphat

'needing a bigger army' was from Danchik originally, not me

I suspect DobraDavid in fact posted that.

But the short story is V. Putin got his ass kicked trying to take Kiev and Kharkov. Unless he likes losing hundreds of field armament and 1,000 plus personnel for some gesture. What I am not exactly sure of.

Worth noting there are repeated remarks that the troops that passed through Chernobyl are unfit for further service.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Lon

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4 possible endings of this war, discuss! TTBs solution
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2022, 08:30:47 PM »
Putin needs to pull everyone back to 2008 borders and do a Stalin type purge of
the military, government and Russian business world. He could have show trials
and executions at Red Square. All of it televised on RT.

He sets the limit at 500 executions to prevent a repeat of the French revolution.
Then he writes a general amnesty of past swindlers on the condition that they
sin no more and end their corruptive ways.

Blames corruption for all of Russia's woes and reinvents himself as a reformer that
stamps out Russian corruption in the government, military and business he would
become more revered and loved than Peter the Great and historians would write it
that way as well. 

The Russian economy would take off, wages and living conditions would sky rocket
and nobody living in their Mothers basement would ever be able to marry a Russian
woman again.
 
Putin would have his legacy, standing in history and the world would be a far
better place.

I have to agree that this is a fantasy, a nice idea, but still....

with that being said, there is a short list of leaders in the world that could pull it off.  and I would put Putin at the top of that list.

Offline Lon

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4 possible endings of this war, discuss! utube infographics show
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2022, 08:33:18 PM »
this vid discusses 4 different was that the war could end.
none of them are good for anyone, some very bad for everyone.
only 13 minutes long


Offline Lon

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4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal lend lease
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2022, 08:42:00 PM »
How do you guys think Russia turned the tide on Germany in ww2?

Russia won by paying the price in blood. the most blood.

Yea if we would not of sent weapons their would not be many Russians as Germany would killed most of them.

I have read a great many discussions on the effect of lend lease.  most opinions were that Russia would have won even with out the aid from the western allies.  but the cost would have been so much higher....time, men, war materials, infrastructure, etc...

Offline WestCoast

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss! utube infographics show
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2022, 09:44:35 PM »
this vid discusses 4 different was that the war could end.
none of them are good for anyone, some very bad for everyone.
only 13 minutes long


About 11:30 in the video it says that if Ukraine is taken Putin would move on to take Moldova. Of course Putin doesn't need to take all of Ukraine to move on to take Moldova all Putin needs to do is to take a land bridge from Russia to Moldova. This would make it much easier to move supplies and military equipment into Moldova.
andrewfi says ''Proximity is almost no guarantee of authority" and "in many cases, distance gives a better picture with less emotional and subjective input."

That means I'm a subject matter expert on all things Russia, Ukraine and UK.

Offline dorbradavid

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal lend lease
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2022, 06:14:16 AM »

I have read a great many discussions on the effect of lend lease.  most opinions were that Russia would have won even with out the aid from the western allies.  but the cost would have been so much higher....time, men, war materials, infrastructure, etc...

Ok, before retiring, I spent a tour as the chief, Military History, at the Armor Center at Ft. Knox.

Lend-lease to the Soviet Union, like most things, "is complicated". But in 1941-42, when the Soviets were relocating their factories to the Urals, lend-lease was a major factor in keeping the Soviets afloat. Really good video on this topic


Dobra David

Offline Manny

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2022, 05:17:06 AM »
There's word on many of the Russian language Twitter channels this morning that Kiev is planning an imminent strike on Crimea using Himar (or Himars) missiles supplied by the US. The conversation noted that Crimea is better protected than the east so its unlikely to be too successful.

I suspect however, if that happens, Russia will move to cut the head off the snake, declare war and remove Zelensky.

Putin did point out recently something to the effect of 'we havent even started yet compared to what we could do' in the context of they have gone in slow and soft up to now, instead of the NATO style of just wiping out the capital.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline Contrarian

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss! rebuttal lend lease
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2022, 06:39:33 AM »
How do you guys think Russia turned the tide on Germany in ww2?

Russia won by paying the price in blood. the most blood.

Yea if we would not of sent weapons their would not be many Russians as Germany would killed most of them.

I have read a great many discussions on the effect of lend lease.  most opinions were that Russia would have won even with out the aid from the western allies.  but the cost would have been so much higher....time, men, war materials, infrastructure, etc...


100% false IMO.

Germany came much closer to winning WWII than most people realize.

In some if not many historians believe that if the German high command had found a way to neutralize Hitler early on then they would have been free to make much better decisions than he did which would have ensured victory.


Offline Contrarian

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2022, 06:43:43 AM »
There's word on many of the Russian language Twitter channels this morning that Kiev is planning an imminent strike on Crimea using Himar (or Himars) missiles supplied by the US. The conversation noted that Crimea is better protected than the east so its unlikely to be too successful.

I suspect however, if that happens, Russia will move to cut the head off the snake, declare war and remove Zelensky.

Putin did point out recently something to the effect of 'we havent even started yet compared to what we could do' in the context of they have gone in slow and soft up to now, instead of the NATO style of just wiping out the capital.


Putin is out of touch with reality.

Russia may yet subdue much of the East and South of Ukraine however the victory will be pyrrhic. In the long run Russia and the Russian people have mostly lost the war, that is to say the economic war and the war of ideas. In the end Russia's victory in Ukraine will be an empire of dirt. And then they will eventually lose much of this dirt plus some and withdraw back from whence they came.

Offline Manny

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2022, 07:41:57 AM »
Thats a lovely fantasy. I see the good old CNN is working well.  :thumbsup:
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline Contrarian

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2022, 10:01:57 AM »
Thats a lovely fantasy. I see the good old CNN is working well.  :thumbsup:


Here's a lovely video for you about an Empire of Dirt.

Just imagine it is Putin singing this song about the destruction he has caused.


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4 possible endings of this war, discuss! Axis winning?
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2022, 10:50:51 AM »
How do you guys think Russia turned the tide on Germany in ww2?

Russia won by paying the price in blood. the most blood.

Yea if we would not of sent weapons their would not be many Russians as Germany would killed most of them.

I have read a great many discussions on the effect of lend lease.  most opinions were that Russia would have won even with out the aid from the western allies.  but the cost would have been so much higher....time, men, war materials, infrastructure, etc...


100% false IMO.

Germany came much closer to winning WWII than most people realize.

In some if not many historians believe that if the German high command had found a way to neutralize Hitler early on then they would have been free to make much better decisions than he did which would have ensured victory.

the trouble with this Hitler scenario, if he was neutralized early on, there is no war.

say, he is gone/neutralized after Barbarossa and Germany does not declare war on US after Pearl Harbor.  then they are still fighting 2 fronts , then 3, and then 4 ( do not forget African and Greek fronts).  and the US is still supplying war material to Allies.

after US enters war Axis can not win, mostly due to over whelming and protected industrial output.

Offline yankee

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2022, 11:22:00 AM »
There's word on many of the Russian language Twitter channels this morning that Kiev is planning an imminent strike on Crimea using Himar (or Himars) missiles supplied by the US. The conversation noted that Crimea is better protected than the east so its unlikely to be too successful.

I suspect however, if that happens, Russia will move to cut the head off the snake, declare war and remove Zelensky.

Putin did point out recently something to the effect of 'we havent even started yet compared to what we could do' in the context of they have gone in slow and soft up to now, instead of the NATO style of just wiping out the capital.

I agree with what Manny has said.  This has been discussed on the Russian channels.
What is worse than not being able to get what you don't even want?

Offline WestCoast

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2022, 11:47:37 AM »
There's word on many of the Russian language Twitter channels this morning that Kiev is planning an imminent strike on Crimea using Himar (or Himars) missiles supplied by the US. The conversation noted that Crimea is better protected than the east so its unlikely to be too successful.

I suspect however, if that happens, Russia will move to cut the head off the snake, declare war and remove Zelensky.

Putin did point out recently something to the effect of 'we havent even started yet compared to what we could do' in the context of they have gone in slow and soft up to now, instead of the NATO style of just wiping out the capital.

You're saying Russia hasn't been fighting hard enough? How many generals has Russia lost? How many soldiers killed and injured?

If with some more effort Russia could kill or capture Zelensky why hasn't Russia? Zelensky is seen as a heroic leader in Ukraine, certainly by the foreign non Russian press.   

If Ukraine uses the Himar missiles and does some serious damage to the Russian military in Crimea what's Putin going to do? Jump up and down and rant about the bad Americans?
andrewfi says ''Proximity is almost no guarantee of authority" and "in many cases, distance gives a better picture with less emotional and subjective input."

That means I'm a subject matter expert on all things Russia, Ukraine and UK.

Offline Texan77

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2022, 12:36:02 PM »
This war not likely over anytime soon.

I think less than two weeks.

Just a sample of Manny's understand of the war. Putin does not call up 100s of thousands of reservists because Russians are supporting the war because someone else's children from some poor areas of Russia are doing all the fighting and dying.  Wait until there is a general call up and middle-class Russian are losing their children. Things will change really quick. These reservists are poorly trained, and Russia does not have the equipment to make them very effective. They may take more ground but the cost in blood for Russia would be very high as well as the political cost to Putin. This is why Russia tries to get Belarus to enter the war and buy drones from Iran.
3) There has been no "threat" to invade Ukraine. The US invented that and fed it to a complicit media.

Offline rosco

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Re: 4 possible endings of this war, discuss!
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2022, 01:28:30 PM »
There's word on many of the Russian language Twitter channels this morning that Kiev is planning an imminent strike on Crimea using Himar (or Himars) missiles supplied by the US. The conversation noted that Crimea is better protected than the east so its unlikely to be too successful.

I suspect however, if that happens, Russia will move to cut the head off the snake, declare war and remove Zelensky.

Putin did point out recently something to the effect of 'we havent even started yet compared to what we could do' in the context of they have gone in slow and soft up to now, instead of the NATO style of just wiping out the capital.

You're saying Russia hasn't been fighting hard enough? How many generals has Russia lost? How many soldiers killed and injured?

If with some more effort Russia could kill or capture Zelensky why hasn't Russia? Zelensky is seen as a heroic leader in Ukraine, certainly by the foreign non Russian press.   

If Ukraine uses the Himar missiles and does some serious damage to the Russian military in Crimea what's Putin going to do? Jump up and down and rant about the bad Americans?

You're saying Russia cant up the ante?