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Author Topic: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy  (Read 499 times)

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Online Wiz

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Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« on: March 01, 2022, 10:40:09 PM »
Ignored Warnings: How NATO Expansion
Led To The Current Ukraine Tragedy



NATO Expansion– The Trigger for Russia’s Attack on Ukraine?

Russia’s military offensive against Ukraine is an act of aggression that will make already worrisome tensions between NATO and Moscow even more dangerous. The West’s new cold war with Russia has turned hot. Vladimir Putin bears primary responsibility for this latest development, but NATO’s arrogant, tone-deaf policy toward Russia over the past quarter-century deserves a large share as well. Analysts committed to a U.S. foreign policy of realism and restraint have warned for more than a quarter-century that continuing to expand the most powerful military alliance in history toward another major power would not end well. The war in Ukraine provides definitive confirmation that it did not.

Thinking Through the Ukraine Crisis – the Causes

“It would be extraordinarily difficult to expand NATO eastward without that action’s being viewed by Russia as unfriendly. Even the most modest schemes would bring the alliance to the borders of the old Soviet Union. Some of the more ambitious versions would have the alliance virtually surround the Russian Federation itself.” Beyond NATO: Staying Out of Europe’s Wars (p. 45).   I wrote those words in 1994, at a time when expansion proposals merely constituted occasional speculation in foreign policy seminars in New York City and Washington, D.C. I added that expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia.”

What was not publicly known at the time was that Bill Clinton’s administration had already made the fateful decision the previous year to push for including some former Warsaw Pact countries in NATO. The administration would soon propose inviting Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary to become members, and the U.S. Senate approved adding those countries to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1998. It would be the first of several waves of membership expansion.

READ more: Ignored Warnings: How NATO Expansion
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Online AvHdB

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2022, 11:37:12 AM »
Wiz, thank you for posting the above. It explains to some degree the Russian obsession and perhaps fear of NATO. It is interesting how the article interprets the Munich speech of V Putin in 2007. I have noted the speech before as a changing and hardening of the Kremlin‘s standpoint.

The bigger problem for V. Putin is the democracy and the yearning of Ukraine to integrate further in Western Europe. The people of Ukraine are not stupid and see the difference between nations such as Belarus and Russia versus say Poland or The Czech Republic.

Worth noting we learned in church that “two wrongs do not make a right”.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2022, 01:10:59 PM »
Wiz, thank you for posting the above. It explains to some degree the Russian obsession and perhaps fear of NATO. It is interesting how the article interprets the Munich speech of V Putin in 2007. I have noted the speech before as a changing and hardening of the Kremlin‘s standpoint.

The bigger problem for V. Putin is the democracy and the yearning of Ukraine to integrate further in Western Europe. The people of Ukraine are not stupid and see the difference between nations such as Belarus and Russia versus say Poland or The Czech Republic.

Worth noting we learned in church that “two wrongs do not make a right”.



Oh gawd. You had enough courage to take the bait and now the all the absurdities about you working for Haifa will start.  :laugh: :laugh:
I read carefully everything you wrote about doing business with Russians....they will always wait for the moment to rob and destroy you.


Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2022, 01:24:47 PM »
Bullshit. Poo tin wants Ukraine at all costs. He can find a thousand pretexts.
Igor Kalinin
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Online AJ

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2022, 01:35:36 PM »
This silly tagline of Putin not wanting NATO on his borders ,
is really getting old.

As soon as those parroting that ,get a grip  and a geography lesson that  heavily militarized Kaliningrad is surrounded by  NATO,  that Estonia and Lativia right on Russias borders are NATO nations.

Maybe Puti is senile and needs a remedial class on his border nations?
Or maybe if he chooses to invade and  expand westward he would  naturally have an entire NATO  western border by his own devices.

  :'(

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2022, 01:51:50 PM »
Wiz, thank you for posting the above. It explains to some degree the Russian obsession and perhaps fear of NATO. It is interesting how the article interprets the Munich speech of V Putin in 2007. I have noted the speech before as a changing and hardening of the Kremlin‘s standpoint.

The bigger problem for V. Putin is the democracy and the yearning of Ukraine to integrate further in Western Europe. The people of Ukraine are not stupid and see the difference between nations such as Belarus and Russia versus say Poland or The Czech Republic.

Worth noting we learned in church that “two wrongs do not make a right”.



Oh gawd. You had enough courage to take the bait and now the all the absurdities about you working for Haifa will start.  :laugh: :laugh:

I am Dutch.

Wiz can be the winging minnow.  :ROFL:
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online Wiz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2022, 04:21:10 PM »
I find it very disappointing reading your “Empty” and almost “No comments” replies. Obviously none of you had any serious thoughts of what actually is taking place. Additionally you give the impression that you don’t care for all the changes that started to affect our lives already.

I suggest you better start learning the history of Russia, Ukraine and take a look at the adversarial nation of USA and then you may open your eyes.

Do we really need a WW III ?

 tiphat
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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2022, 08:47:36 PM »
Bullshit. Poo tin wants Ukraine at all costs. He can find a thousand pretexts.

Thank you for your service!!!!
3) There has been no "threat" to invade Ukraine. The US invented that and fed it to a complicit media.

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2022, 01:50:14 AM »
Bullshit. Poo tin wants Ukraine at all costs. He can find a thousand pretexts.

Glad to see you're alive and kicking. Hopefully it stays that way.
OO===[][]===OO
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria

Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2022, 03:28:17 AM »
Do we really need a WW III ?
WW III is impossible. Russia against the world is not a world war.
Igor Kalinin
Russian Translator/Interpreter/Guide/Agent for Odessa, the Crimea and the rest of Ukraine
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Online Wiz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2022, 08:55:47 PM »
Do we really need a WW III ?
WW III is impossible. Russia against the world is not a world war.

Do we really need a WW III ?
WW III is impossible. Russia against the world is not a world war.

Igor

I suggest you take another look in history and see how WW I  & WW II started. You have been around these boards for long time and I don't remember you expressing such strong views before because you were looking for clients..... No problem there and all of us help you to advertise for free.... Sorry but I cannot remember you expressing similar political views until now.

Now looks you have changed your views OR you are not afraid to express them openly. The photo on your avatar is very old, and if my memory serves me right I do know you for more than 12 years!  You start using this photo after the Russians took over Crimea, your old play ground. You also posted photos from your army training, and after the Coup de’etat Feb 2014 did not see much of you, around!

Now out of the blue you reappeared and you are showing your Nationalistic colours and I just wonder what happened to you in the very peaceful and nice city of Odessa?

For your information every morning I am listening to live reports from your city, on a Greek radio station. Two large convoys, from Marioupol and Odessa, with over 200 Greeks, yesterday morning, arrived safely in Greece.

Did you join the AZOV patriotic movement who killed 26 people in Odessa or you are a supporter of your Clown, nowhere to be seen,  President!

Remember the Americans after they use you they will drop you like a sack of bricks as they did in every country they invaded, see Vietnam Cambodia, Afghanistan and the list is endless.

USA is bankcrupt! Read financial news.


Good luck to you.  :coffeeread:




Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire ? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2022, 12:37:52 PM »
I suggest you take another look in history and see how WW I  & WW II started.
For your information, history is one of my hobbies, especially military history, and particularty WWII history, so I can tell you a lot more than you know.
You have been around these boards for long time and I don't remember you expressing such strong views before because you were looking for clients.....
No problem there and all of us help you to advertise for free.... Sorry but I cannot remember you expressing similar political views until now.
I did stop posting here like ten years ago although I had not been looking for clients before. Most of my clients come from the old Russian Women Guide board that I used like twenty years ago even before you joined it.

Back then I did not have strong views because no one attacked my country and my home in the Crimea was still mine.

Now I have some good friends of mine, some of them my former customers or employers who still post at this board, so why shouldn’t I "reappear out of the blue"? If you have a problem about it, try to put up with that on your own or consult your doctor privately.
Now looks you have changed your views OR you are not afraid to express them openly. The photo on your avatar is very old, and if my memory serves me right I do know you for more than 12 years!  You start using this photo after the Russians took over Crimea, your old play ground. You also posted photos from your army training, and after the Coup de’etat Feb 2014 did not see much of you, around!
The photo is five years old.

There was no Coup de’etat in Ukraine. Don't repeat Kremlin propaganda here.
Now out of the blue you reappeared and you are showing your Nationalistic colours and I just wonder what happened to you in the very peaceful and nice city of Odessa?
First, my Crimea was insidiously attacked. I was deprived of my home. Then they tried to take my second home Odessa. This time I said NO WAY.
Did you join the AZOV patriotic movement who killed 26 people in Odessa or you are a supporter of your Clown, nowhere to be seen,  President!
I joined the Ukrainian army in 2015 and served 14 months. Now I am in the territorial defense (militia). Our President may be a clown but it is better to be a clown, a bum, anyone but not Huylo. You know what that means don’t you? And once again, no Kremlin propaganda here please especially when you have very vague ideas of what you mention. Azov did not actually exist then and it is based in Mariupol. You look silly when you repeat someone else’s bullshit.
Remember the Americans after they use you they will drop you like a sack of bricks as they did in every country they invaded, see Vietnam Cambodia, Afghanistan and the list is endless.
For some reason you fail to mention Japan and Germany that prospered after the second world war despite being invaded by the U.S.
Igor Kalinin
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Offline Manny

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2022, 12:42:15 PM »
There was no Coup de'etat in Ukraine.

Obama and Victoria Nuland were invited to overthrow the elected president, were they? You might want to look up the audio of her talking about it.

I'm also curious about what you think of the children of Biden, Kerry and other US politicians being appointed to Ukrainian companies?
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Online Wiz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2022, 07:24:42 PM »
I suggest you take another look in history and see how WW I  & WW II started.
For your information, history is one of my hobbies, especially military history, and particularty WWII history, so I can tell you a lot more than you know.

I address you in a very polite manner and in your very first sentence of you reply you have shown the calibre of your character. You obviously you are a genius arrogant and you know all and better history from me, without having a clue of my knowledge and experiences.

Well done son, you shown your real colours and character of who you are and for real accurate information about Ukraine I rather listen to my Greek co-patriots, who live in Ukraine, Odessa mostly, for accurate and not to a member of the Nationalist and Fascists group who killed 26 people in Odessa or to a supporter of your Clown President, nowhere to be seen.

Just wonder what you will do when Odessa finally will be taken over by the Russia?
I guess you will be lucky and have your Crimea house back!

Finally for your information this is the last time I am addressing you.
Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire ? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2022, 10:52:20 PM »
Just wonder what you will do when Odessa finally will be taken over by the Russia?
Back in 2014 I said: there is no way Odessa could be Russian as long as I am alive.

NO WAY.

And I mean it. Even if I were the only man standing here, but I still have 600 rounds and 5 Bandera’s cocktails.

Luckily, I am not alone. There is no shortage of volunteers to join the militia here and I am sometimes shocked to see people there who I would never expect to join as some of them would say they did not bother about the Crimea being occupied or even sympathyzed Russia before.

Before Russia started dropping bombs on our cities. This gave such people a very efficient lesson.

So there is NO WAY.

Igor Kalinin
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Online Wiz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2022, 03:25:43 AM »
'HISTORY There was cruelty'!
The truth behind one of Ukraine's deadliest days

Just wonder what you will do when Odessa finally will be taken over by the Russia?
Back in 2014 I said: there is no way Odessa could be Russian as long as I am alive. NO WAY.
And I mean it. Even if I were the only man standing here, but I still have 600 rounds and 5 Bandera’s cocktails.

Luckily, I am not alone. There is no shortage of volunteers to join the militia here and I am sometimes shocked to see people there who I would never expect to join as some of them would say they did not bother about the Crimea being occupied or even sympathyzed Russia before. This gave such people a very efficient lesson. So there is NO WAY.

In one of the most deadly episodes in Ukraine’s turbulent 2014 power transition, 48 people were killed and hundreds injured on 2 May in the Black Sea port of Odessa. Street battles culminated in a fatal fire at Soviet-era building where hundreds of pro-Russia activists were barricaded in.



The events in Odessa played a key role in the unfolding violence further east, where Russia-backed separatists rose up against Ukrainian authorities. Russian state-owned media characterised the day’s events as a “massacre” planned by “fascists” in Kiev, a narrative that has gained widespread traction.



None of the pro-Ukraine activists have been put on trial for the events that led to the deaths in the Trade Unions building. The slow progress and incompetence of the official investigation was probably attributable to a general feeling of guilt as well as a desire to shield influential figures in Kiev, according to journalist Konstantinov.

All the 48 dead were from Odessa or the surrounding region, and it is an unavoidable fact that the violence on 2 May was perpetrated by Odessans against Odessans. Activists from both sides admit that the port city remains divided into two approximately matched camps – those who favour closer ties with Russia, and those loyal to the government in Kiev.

The threat of a pro-Russia coup in Odessa has receded since summer 2014, but tensions in the city remain high with a series of bomb blasts in the city centre targeting pro-Ukrainian organisations, and waves of arrests by the security services of radicals allegedly seeking closer ties with Moscow.




Information from The Guardian The-truth-behind-one-of-Ukraines-deadliest-days
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Online AJ

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2022, 09:20:44 AM »
Quote from: Wiz
  Wiz to Stirlitz.

 Finally for your information this is the last time I am addressing you.


This din't age well

Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Ignored Warnings, Ukraine Tragedy
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2022, 11:16:39 AM »
In one of the most deadly episodes in Ukraine’s turbulent 2014 power transition, 48 people were killed and hundreds injured on 2 May in the Black Sea port of Odessa. Street battles culminated in a fatal fire at Soviet-era building where hundreds of pro-Russia activists were barricaded in.
All Russian propagondoms post those pictures but keep silent about how it all started. Well, I can refresh your memory. In the pictures above it is getting dark as it was about 8 pm. But what happened in the morning and afternoon? A peaceful demo of Ukrainians was in the main street. It was attacked by a crowd of Russians and pro-Russian locals who SHOT DEAD several people in Deribasovskaya.





So, they got what they asked for. They fled to the trade union house and barricaded themselves inside. Then they shot from there and threw bottles with gas. Not a very smart move with predictable results.
Igor Kalinin
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