Russia Recognises Independence of Donetsk and Lugansk

[Contrarian]

Well it's official, Russia now claims the two breakaway Republics as being part of Russia.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-military-claims-ukrainian-attackers-143126993.html

[andrewfi]

Well it's official, Russia now claims the two breakaway Republics as being part of Russia.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-military-claims-ukrainian-attackers-143126993.html

Errm, no, that's not what has been said.

The Russian Federation is to recognise the two republics as independent states. That's the same as the Georgian case where Abkhazia and South Ossetia are recognised by Russia as independent states. This enables Russia to act as guarantor of their security.

[Contrarian]

Well it's official, Russia now claims the two breakaway Republics as being part of Russia.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-military-claims-ukrainian-attackers-143126993.html

Errm, no, that's not what has been said.

The Russian Federation is to recognise the two republics as independent states. That's the same as the Georgian case where Abkhazia and South Ossetia are recognised by Russia as independent states. This enables Russia to act as guarantor of their security.

Okay....it is more or less going to be claimed by Russia; eventually.


https://www.rt.com/russia/550170-putin-donbass-ukraine-speech/

[andrewfi]

That is a possibility, but not in the short term. However, it does not render your post any less inaccurate.

The status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia has not changed since the Russian army rolled back the Georgian forces a few years ago. In and out. Regard the Kazakh case recently as being a recent template.

[Gipsy]

Russian "Peace keepers have entered the Donbass areas, and will most probably be stationed on the contact line according to local rumour...
Should they be attacked in any way then all hell may break loose...
This may have been the plan all along, and not the full invasion of Ukraine as mouthed by the USAsians and others.
Will the Ukrainian military hold, or will many of its soldiers run???

[Contrarian]

Russian "Peace keepers have entered the Donbass areas, and will most probably be stationed on the contact line according to local rumour...
Should they be attacked in any way then all hell may break loose...
This may have been the plan all along, and not the full invasion of Ukraine as mouthed by the USAsians and others.
Will the Ukrainian military hold, or will many of its soldiers run???

Russian soldiers who enter Donbas are not peacekeepers, they are invaders.

And they already invade previously, that is how and why those two republics did not get firmly put back with Ukraine.

Because of Russian artillery during the Debaltseve Siege.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Debaltseve

[Contrarian]

Previous proof of artillery shot from Russian soil into Ukraine back in 2014....

https://abc7chicago.com/news/images-prove-russia-fired-artillery-into-ukraine-us-says/224251/

[Texan77]

Russian "Peace keepers have entered the Donbass areas, and will most probably be stationed on the contact line according to local rumour...
Should they be attacked in any way then all hell may break loose...
This may have been the plan all along, and not the full invasion of Ukraine as mouthed by the USAsians and others.
Will the Ukrainian military hold, or will many of its soldiers run???

Yea they are going to get attacked even if they have to attack themselves. Anything to have a fake made up reason that somebody like Gipsy would believe. These break away regions were always a Russian invasion and now it is being made official with these so-called peacekeepers. I understand they are planning to take the whole Donbas region which Russia only controls 1/3 of now. This is how Russia became a big country. Have a war then an agreement and take a little land then not abide by the agreement and have another war and take a little more land.

What land he takes it will be the amount for now then in the not to distance future it will be more land. Combined with the claims it is Russia that is being picked on and is only responding to agression of the neightboring countries who keep losing land. Russia has a very long history of this.

[rosco]

According to this article on the BBC, Putin has made it clear that he isn't yet looking to incorporate the two areas into the RF.

Groundwork for the controversial decision was laid earlier on Monday, when Mr Putin convened Russia's security council to discuss recognising the self-declared republics as independent.

Mr Putin's top officials were called to a podium to deliver their views, each speaking in favour of the move. Monday's televised meeting was not entirely smooth, however.
Two officials, during their exchanges with Mr Putin, appeared to reference the possibility to "incorporate" the regions into Russia. On both occasions, Mr Putin corrected them.

"We are not talking about that, we are not discussing that," he said, shaking his head in response to one official's use of the phrase. "We are talking about whether to recognise their independence or not."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60468237

It also provided some good analysis on the mood Putin had and the reasons behind his frustration - if you read the full article.

[rosco]

Yea they are going to get attacked even if they have to attack themselves. Anything to have a fake made up reason that somebody like Gipsy would believe. These break away regions were always a Russian invasion and now it is being made official with these so-called peacekeepers. I understand they are planning to take the whole Donbas region which Russia only controls 1/3 of now. This is how Russia became a big country. Have a war then an agreement and take a little land then not abide by the agreement and have another war and take a little more land.

What land he takes it will be the amount for now then in the not to distance future it will be more land. Combined with the claims it is Russia that is being picked on and is only responding to agression of the neightboring countries who keep losing land. Russia has a very long history of this.

Some solid one sided analysis there Tex. 

I have no dog in this fight and I see flaws, problems and wrong doings on all sides. That said, if two large neighbouring states bordering the US, were in the midst of an 8 year civil war which directly affected your national security, you can bet that we'd be seeing some US troops in there under a 'peace keeping role'. It's always easy to preach from the moral high ground when the conflict doesn't involve your own country and the civil war currently looks endless.

Throw in the prospect of those imaginary states or Mexico joining a defence union chaired by Russia and the presence of Russian 'training bases' pointing missiles over the US border and the US might get a sniff of what's starting to piss off old Vova.

I just feel sorry for the Ukrainians, who are stuck in the middle of an argument between Russia and the West.

[andrewfi]

As I just posted in another thread. This situation has come about, pretty much as I expected it would, as a result of the inability of, primarily, the United States, to see Russia as an equal and thus rejected even discussing the central points of Russia's draft treaty proposals.

What is now going to happen is a continuation of Russian statecraft to increase divisions between Europe and the USA and between NATO members.

This is not about Ukraine, the Ukrainian situation is merely a part of the larger picture - a picture that seems to be invisible to TPTB in the USA and NATO leadership. Many, if not most of the European governments are already getting the picture and seem to be willing to work toward a solution that suits Europe and Russia.

What happened yesterday was not, I am sure, the preferred route for Russia, however, we are seeing the implementation of a new branch of a planned series of steps. The manner in which events have transpired from the Russian side indicates that a plan existed. This is not happening on the fly. When the Americans acted as they did, a new envelope was opened with the steps required if the USA were to act as they did.

I am sure there are many 'envelopes' covering a wide range of contingencies. We have seen evidence of this level of planning from Russia several times over the past few years.

[Gipsy]

For those of you who are interested, this video is, IMHO, an honest appraisal of the situation and how it could/should have been resolved several years ago...

The first 45min are the interesting analysis...

[Contrarian]

According to this article on the BBC, Putin has made it clear that he isn't yet looking to incorporate the two areas into the RF.

Groundwork for the controversial decision was laid earlier on Monday, when Mr Putin convened Russia's security council to discuss recognising the self-declared republics as independent.

Mr Putin's top officials were called to a podium to deliver their views, each speaking in favour of the move. Monday's televised meeting was not entirely smooth, however.
Two officials, during their exchanges with Mr Putin, appeared to reference the possibility to "incorporate" the regions into Russia. On both occasions, Mr Putin corrected them.

"We are not talking about that, we are not discussing that," he said, shaking his head in response to one official's use of the phrase. "We are talking about whether to recognise their independence or not."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60468237

It also provided some good analysis on the mood Putin had and the reasons behind his frustration - if you read the full article.

It's rather obvious IMO that those statements by Putin or only temporary and for show. Didn't he make similar statements about Crimea, before turning around and incorporating Crimea into the RF?

Also by putting large amounts of Russian troops inside of the Donbas Putin can more easily fabricate a false flag type of operation which will give him the pretext he wants for a full scale invasion of Ukraine.

[AvHdB]

For those of you who are interested, this video is, IMHO, an honest appraisal of the situation and how it could/should have been resolved several years ago...

The first 45min are the interesting analysis...

Just a little late to the party?

In any event Wiz and myself have commented and noted this video earlier.

Please try to keep up.

[Contrarian]

Yea they are going to get attacked even if they have to attack themselves. Anything to have a fake made up reason that somebody like Gipsy would believe. These break away regions were always a Russian invasion and now it is being made official with these so-called peacekeepers. I understand they are planning to take the whole Donbas region which Russia only controls 1/3 of now. This is how Russia became a big country. Have a war then an agreement and take a little land then not abide by the agreement and have another war and take a little more land.

What land he takes it will be the amount for now then in the not to distance future it will be more land. Combined with the claims it is Russia that is being picked on and is only responding to agression of the neightboring countries who keep losing land. Russia has a very long history of this.

Some solid one sided analysis there Tex. 

I have no dog in this fight and I see flaws, problems and wrong doings on all sides. That said, if two large neighbouring states bordering the US, were in the midst of an 8 year civil war which directly affected your national security, you can bet that we'd be seeing some US troops in there under a 'peace keeping role'. It's always easy to preach from the moral high ground when the conflict doesn't involve your own country and the civil war currently looks endless.

Throw in the prospect of those imaginary states or Mexico joining a defence union chaired by Russia and the presence of Russian 'training bases' pointing missiles over the US border and the US might get a sniff of what's starting to piss off old Vova.

I just feel sorry for the Ukrainians, who are stuck in the middle of an argument between Russia and the West.

The USA is already being invaded by Mexico and other South American countries by a bunch of freeloaders and criminals. If we had a real President and Congress an emergency would be declared and ALL who came here illegally in the past 24 months would get evicted. Then if need be we would send the US military into Mexico and Guatemala and any other Southern country and put an end to these convoys of illegals looking for free handouts.

And put the media and others into prison who have been encouraging this illegal invasion in exchange for votes.

Meanwhile the USA could have made some minor concessions to Russia and stayed out of that conflict. 

[rosco]

According to this article on the BBC, Putin has made it clear that he isn't yet looking to incorporate the two areas into the RF.

Groundwork for the controversial decision was laid earlier on Monday, when Mr Putin convened Russia's security council to discuss recognising the self-declared republics as independent.

Mr Putin's top officials were called to a podium to deliver their views, each speaking in favour of the move. Monday's televised meeting was not entirely smooth, however.
Two officials, during their exchanges with Mr Putin, appeared to reference the possibility to "incorporate" the regions into Russia. On both occasions, Mr Putin corrected them.

"We are not talking about that, we are not discussing that," he said, shaking his head in response to one official's use of the phrase. "We are talking about whether to recognise their independence or not."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60468237

It also provided some good analysis on the mood Putin had and the reasons behind his frustration - if you read the full article.

It's rather obvious IMO that those statements by Putin or only temporary and for show. Didn't he make similar statements about Crimea, before turning around and incorporating Crimea into the RF?

Also by putting large amounts of Russian troops inside of the Donbas Putin can more easily fabricate a false flag type of operation which will give him the pretext he wants for a full scale invasion of Ukraine.

Or it could be comparable to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, neither of which were incorporated into the Russian Federation. Messy all the same.

[Markje]

So Putin declared earlier which parts of Donbass he meant and it was all of it, not just the parts the rebels hold.

[AvHdB]

So Putin declared earlier which parts of Donbass he meant and it was all of it, not just the parts the rebels hold.

For myself I would be curious to see the actual text and translation of V. Putin’s speech justifying the Russian ‘operation’ of yesterday.

[Contrarian]

So Putin declared earlier which parts of Donbass he meant and it was all of it, not just the parts the rebels hold.

Oh, so just like that Russia is going to march in to Ukraine and forcibly take yet more territory not belonging to them?

I doubt if Ukraine will let that happen without a fight.

Meanwhile here is the response from Biden.


 

[NS1]

Putin is just justifying what comes next.
Ukraine has two choices, let Russia take the east
or fight, if they fight  it will be nasty.
If they let them take them, it will be phase one.
WIth more to come.

IMO Ukraine has no choice, fight or just give up/in.
Anyone blaming the  USA or Parts of Europe are Just deflecting.
Nato does not exisit with out the US, Maybe some believe Nato is a waste of
time. different conversation.

Even through Ukraine is not part of Nato, if they do nothing here,
it sends the wrong message to the world.
Folks may want to consider what that means about any country wanting to invade a
non Nato, Sovereign nation.

[Contrarian]

Putin is just justifying what comes next.
Ukraine has two choices, let Russia take the east
or fight, if they fight  it will be nasty.
If they let them take them, it will be phase one.
WIth more to come.

IMO Ukraine has no choice, fight or just give up/in.
Anyone blaming the  USA or Parts of Europe are Just deflecting.
Nato does not exisit with out the US, Maybe some believe Nato is a waste of
time. different conversation.

Even through Ukraine is not part of Nato, if they do nothing here,
it sends the wrong message to the world.
Folks may want to consider what that means about any country wanting to invade a
non Nato, Sovereign nation.

Ukraine has an example of a smaller country which defied Russia and kept most of their territory: Finland, which is also not part of NATO.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail

[Wiz]

So Putin declared earlier which parts of Donbass he meant and it was all of it, not just the parts the rebels hold.

For myself I would be curious to see the actual text and translation of V. Putin's speech justifying the Russian ‘operation' of yesterday.

Don't Panic here is for your service: President's PUTIN Speech in the hope that you may calm down and probably you may Learn something

Address by the President of the Russian Federation

[Texan77]

What most people are missing is what happened in Belarus. Belarus went from being a close trading partner of Russia to being a satellite state of Russia. Russia can now treat Belarus like its own territory. So now troops will be station there permanently and will move about the country at Putin's will.

Today Putin is saying that Ukraine is not a real country and should not exist. So, you can see where this is headed.

On the news I keep hearing like maybe Sanctions are going to stop Putin? That is an easy question. NO!!!! Why would anybody think that? 

[Texan77]

The I do not know how many times Russia has threaten nuclear war if NATO helps Ukraine, but it is a lot.

Gravitas Ukraine Direct: Putin hints at nuclear response if NATO attacks (or defends Ukraine)

[yankee]

Putin is just justifying what comes next.
Ukraine has two choices, let Russia take the east
or fight, if they fight  it will be nasty.
If they let them take them, it will be phase one.
WIth more to come.

IMO Ukraine has no choice, fight or just give up/in.
Anyone blaming the  USA or Parts of Europe are Just deflecting.
Nato does not exisit with out the US, Maybe some believe Nato is a waste of
time. different conversation.

Even through Ukraine is not part of Nato, if they do nothing here,
it sends the wrong message to the world.
Folks may want to consider what that means about any country wanting to invade a
non Nato, Sovereign nation.

The US  has invaded numerous countries. Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Vietnam ....