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Author Topic: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater  (Read 804 times)

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Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« on: February 09, 2022, 08:39:39 PM »
This young lady became the first ice skating female in history to land a quad at the Winter Olympics. She not only landed one, she landed two in her program. She skated to Bolero. Most of us guys are old enough to remember when Bo Derek made this music famous in the movie 10.  :chuckle:

I am aware that now she is said to have failed a drug test. I sincerely hope this is a mistake. Either way nothing can take away from her accomplishment. Tragic if true. Her skating is amazing and she skates at a higher plateau.


 


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/winter-olympics/kamila-valieva-russian-figure-skater-becomes-first-woman-to-land-a-quad-at-the-winter-olympics/ar-AATyzzP
I read carefully everything you wrote about doing business with Russians....they will always wait for the moment to rob and destroy you.

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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2022, 09:19:48 PM »
I accidentally posted her Grand Prix debut above, here is the performance at the Olympics.


 
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2022, 07:59:38 AM »
Something is a little odd. Apparently, she failed a drug test in Estonia some months ago. And yet nothing seems to have been known about it until now.

The drug found in her system/blood is one that is banned.

A second problem that I see is this: she is a kid, just 15. As a kid, she does not have full control over her own body. That's normal, in the same way as a USAian kid cannot usually rely upon his or her own choices or wishes when it comes to medical care.

If her parents or those acting in loco parentis told her to take a drug, for some reason or other, she'd be likely to do so. It is normal for a kid.

I am not saying that she did not have the substance in her system, but I think, based upon the little that I have seen, that she cannot be treated as an adult. If the substance was present and the testing process was above board then the inevitable penalty of losing the medal should follow. However, in that circumstance, I also think that any personal sanction that might be meted out on an adult should not apply to her.

But, I remain curious about the timing of the information about the test result.

There's more going on here than meets the eye. I certainly do not see it as an instance of a continuation of the claims about widespread 'doping' made against Russian sportspeople a few years ago. This is something different and concerning. More like child abuse, if true.

She may be a victim rather than a complicit participant and that worries me a lot. Let us see what happens.

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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2022, 08:25:29 AM »
I have no idea how a performance-enhancing can influence something that is essentially an art-form.

You win on gracious movements, style and composition. Raw strength and speed have little to do with it.

Therefore: Bogus!
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2022, 10:09:17 AM »
I have no idea how a performance-enhancing can influence something that is essentially an art-form.

You win on gracious movements, style and composition. Raw strength and speed have little to do with it.

Therefore: Bogus!

It is a very strenuous discipline, look at how hard they are breathing after they finish a session lasting just a few minutes.

The drug she is suggested to have taken is designed to enable greater blood flow around the heart. That's why it is good for angina sufferers. Increased blood flow enhances one's ability to perform in part, as I recall from my school days, by reducing the effect of low oxygen in the blood thus enabling greater muscular control at the extremes of performance. That's why the drug is on the requisite banned substance list.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2022, 02:13:55 PM »
I have no idea how a performance-enhancing can influence something that is essentially an art-form.

You win on gracious movements, style and composition. Raw strength and speed have little to do with it.

Therefore: Bogus!


It might be an art form however most who have ice skated would strenuously disagree with you that "raw strength and speed have little to do with it".

Really?

Just how do you think they launch themselves up into the air and spin around, whether doing it three times or now four times? Do you think they are lighter than fairies and that it's only art without any strength and stamina being used?

I am flabbergasted as to how you came to such a conclusion, except that you have never ice skated, not even just going around a track in circles.

Try doing it quickly for at least 30 minutes and then get back to us.  :coffeeread:
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2022, 03:18:18 PM »
Something is a little odd. Apparently, she failed a drug test in Estonia some months ago. And yet nothing seems to have been known about it until now.

The drug found in her system/blood is one that is banned.

A second problem that I see is this: she is a kid, just 15. As a kid, she does not have full control over her own body. That's normal, in the same way as a USAian kid cannot usually rely upon his or her own choices or wishes when it comes to medical care.

If her parents or those acting in loco parentis told her to take a drug, for some reason or other, she'd be likely to do so. It is normal for a kid.

I am not saying that she did not have the substance in her system, but I think, based upon the little that I have seen, that she cannot be treated as an adult. If the substance was present and the testing process was above board then the inevitable penalty of losing the medal should follow. However, in that circumstance, I also think that any personal sanction that might be meted out on an adult should not apply to her.

But, I remain curious about the timing of the information about the test result.

There's more going on here than meets the eye. I certainly do not see it as an instance of a continuation of the claims about widespread 'doping' made against Russian sportspeople a few years ago. This is something different and concerning. More like child abuse, if true.

She may be a victim rather than a complicit participant and that worries me a lot. Let us see what happens.


Because of her age, this is a very complicated situation. Because of her age, she might be allowed to keep the Gold medal. And for those who are cynical, they will say that whoever gave her the banned substance, assuming this was done without her knowing about it; well that was the plan. They knew that she could not be blamed.

I am only the messenger here, posting an article. I don't know and really none of us know, if she knew she had been given something improper or if she took something improper herself, which I highly doubt. Why would she? I don't believe she would.


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/russian-doping-controversy-leaves-credibility-of-olympics-teetering-on-the-edge-062431232.html
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2022, 01:46:05 AM »
I have no idea how a performance-enhancing can influence something that is essentially an art-form.

You win on gracious movements, style and composition. Raw strength and speed have little to do with it.

Therefore: Bogus!


It might be an art form however most who have ice skated would strenuously disagree with you that "raw strength and speed have little to do with it".

Really?

Just how do you think they launch themselves up into the air and spin around, whether doing it three times or now four times? Do you think they are lighter than fairies and that it's only art without any strength and stamina being used?

I am flabbergasted as to how you came to such a conclusion, except that you have never ice skated, not even just going around a track in circles.

Try doing it quickly for at least 30 minutes and then get back to us.  :coffeeread:

Although I played ice-hockey and not figure skating, you will be surprised to know that : YES i did do that and therefore I know what is included.

Its all about bending the knees and keeping your limbs close to your body. Of course you will need strength/speed/etc. but the Drugs will not help you much with your own elegant moves or the ways your joints work together to create your movements.

Nope.
not.
buying the drugs story.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2022, 02:33:45 AM »
Markje, those folks are not just bimbling about on the ice. While a routine may last only a few minutes their energy expenditure is prodigious.

It seems that on an hourly basis a 70Kg competitor will burn around 950 calories. By comparison in ice hockey at a competitive level a player will consume about 680 calories per hour.

https://www.insider.com/how-many-calories-does-snowboarding-downhill-skiing-burn-2018-2#competitive-hockey-burns-an-estimated-680-calories-an-hour-8

In this type of activity lactic acid build up is the killer of performance. Its what causes the muscle pain that I recall from my running days. Improved blood flow, meaning less lactic acid build up enables better explosive performance and muscle control for graceful movements. In my case, lactic acid reduced my stamina, its why we trained our breathing and improved our bodies' performance.

This girl, in some manner, has been capable of feats of superhuman explosive strength and muscular control. She can do things no other human has ever done before.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2022, 03:45:20 AM »
Yup, I was right. Odd stuff happened. She was tested on Christmas Day In Saint Petersburg. The results did not come through until the day after the team won the gold medal.

The test was analysed in Sweden.

She competed in Estonia after that event and tested negative. Results already available.
She competed in the Olympic Games and tested negative. Results already available.

Question: what caused the delay in results from the Swedish laboratory?
https://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-olympics/60329120

Was the delay in revealing and the timing of the test result purposeful? Was it an act of sabotage against the child? In that case, is the test result genuine?
Of course, whichever way that goes, who has been abusing this poor kid?

I can fully understand why there's all sorts of legal to-ings and fro-ings here!
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2022, 09:29:47 AM »
Yup, I was right. Odd stuff happened. She was tested on Christmas Day In Saint Petersburg. The results did not come through until the day after the team won the gold medal.

The test was analysed in Sweden.

She competed in Estonia after that event and tested negative. Results already available.
She competed in the Olympic Games and tested negative. Results already available
.

Question: what caused the delay in results from the Swedish laboratory?
https://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-olympics/60329120

Was the delay in revealing and the timing of the test result purposeful? Was it an act of sabotage against the child? In that case, is the test result genuine?
Of course, whichever way that goes, who has been abusing this poor kid?

I can fully understand why there's all sorts of legal to-ings and fro-ings here!


Those are all great questions!

Considering that two out of three tests found her negative, there is something really fishy about the test which had such explosive and political delayed results.

What she has gone through and is going through is unacceptable. Hopefully clearer minds will prevail and she will retain her Gold medal, as she has. I realize they haven't had the ceremony and given it to her yet. Immaterial. She should not be being made into a pawn of some sorts due to politics.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2022, 08:13:07 PM »
Other Olympic athletes have tested positive for this drug,and/or similar drugs and also lost their medals regardless age,regardless if a physician coach or parent  advised ,or of it was their own choices.

Most training their lives for this even at a young age know what's listed as performance enhancing or vertigo reducing etc.
They have physicians and coaches  they trust of course to rely on ,and some where misled, or took actions of their own.
This did not change the rulings in general if they tested positive.

If they filed the proper therapeutic exemptions is typically the only way   a loss of medal or ban is avoided?

I'm not saying its right,its just how it has gone previously  with  other skaters in particular.

The real oddity  here is the pattern of testing and timing of results.
The rest frankly is par the course in Olympic athletes for the last few decades.


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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2022, 03:01:48 AM »
Yes, AJ, it's the delayed test results and the timing of their release. The slightly cynical might wonder if we would have heard nothing, or heard a different result if the kid had not performed so well.

How come testing by a specialist laboratory set up to provide relevant testing results be so spectacularly slow? We're talking about 6 weeks here for a service that can be provided in a matter of hours.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2022, 09:30:38 AM »
I did a bit of reading on Wikipedia about this case.

Interestingly, the pages in Russian and English differ quite a lot.
The fuller description of the matter is on the Russian language page: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0,_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0_%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0#%D0%A1%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%83%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%81_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8

Quote
Clause 10.3.1 of the WADA Code for Underage Athletes (protected person) reduces liability from a normal disqualification of 2 to 4 years to a disqualification of up to 2 years. When making a decision on the period of Ineligibility, WADA proceeds from the degree of participation of an athlete in doping. [66]According to the WADA Code, there is no automatic deprivation of points for team performance in the case of a doping sample taken outside the "in-competition period", in this case a positive doping test was obtained outside the in-competition period of the Olympics.

Only if WADA proves that doping may have affected the results of the competition, paragraph 11.2.1 and paragraph 11.2.3 of the WADA Code for deprivation of points of a team member who is found to have doping apply. In the case of the performance of the Russian figure skating team at the 2022 Olympics, this means that it will move to 4th place. [67] However, the doping test falls into the “competitive period” of the 2021 Russian Championship, and if doping is proven, the results of this competition will be automatically reviewed.
I learned a couple of things:
1) The delay in getting the test results was unexpected and is a matter of concern.
2) As the alleged infraction occurred so long ago, outside of a window for consideration for doping at the Olympics, withdrawal of the medal award and victory is not, under WADA rules, automatic. Basically, as I read it, in order to prevent the sort of foul-up from the delay in the results of testing, there is a period of time after the testing event after which disqualification for a negative previous test is not mandated. Mandatory disqualification is only called for in cases where the enhancement caused by a doping event would lead to enhanced performance in the longer term - including the event in question.

The window for mandated disqualification had passed. Although not mentioned in the article, as far as I recall, the drug would not lead to long term enhancement in the way that, for example, steroids would do. At best, the drug would lead to enhanced performance at a specific point in time. For example, I have used angina medication to deal with a short term issue, fortunately no longer needed. Its effect was to increase blood flow in the short term, a few hours. This relieves angina discomfort while the blood is carrying extra oxygen in the blood.

So, it seems the arguments are going to be focused right now around whether the test carried out on December 25th is a valid reason to disqualify Kamila Valerievna from the Olympics. For sure there will be other implications both immediately and in the longer term.

The linked page is worth a read as it has more detail than I have seen anywhere in English language media.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2022, 06:07:15 AM »
A well-written article in the Washington Post about the case and wider aspects.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2022/02/11/sally-jenkins-valieva-anti-doping/
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2022, 10:13:55 AM »
A well-written article in the Washington Post about the case and wider aspects.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2022/02/11/sally-jenkins-valieva-anti-doping/

From the article & listed drugs:

And here are its potential side effects: gastric or esophageal burning, muscular cramps, dizziness, effort-induced discomfort, depression, sedation and/or drowsiness, palpitations, visual disturbances, anorexia, and hyperorexia. Also, potential motor disorders including tremor, and muscle rigidity.

So, imagine you're an ice-skater and your primary means to win is "art" , gracious beauty and slender movements. A well-oiled performance that people grade based on how it looks.

Imagine a short-track racer like mr. Bolt, if he gets a short visual disturbance it does not really matter, he needs raw speed to win.

Would you say that taking the drugs she was accused of, grant her a more bigger chance to FAIL instead of win? I'd say all of the above side-effects are definately not what some ice-skater wants when performing primary on beauty/grace.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2022, 11:08:03 AM »
Yeah, that's what the article points out. I didn't know that. Of course, I didn't look it up. :)

There's something odd about the whole affair.

Strikes me as being more about sabotage than a genuine doping event. When I saw the side effects, I was moved further toward that opinion.

The drug, if used would seem to be of marginal potential benefit and with a greater downside than upside. The girl's training team are dedicated and driven. I can get behind the idea that they might choose to use drugs to enhance her performance. However, their motivation would also, IMHO lead them to choose better enhancements - if they were going to go down that road.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2022, 01:04:19 AM »
So, Kamila Valieva has been allowed to continue to participate in the Olympics but the issue of the medal award is in abeyance.

On the face of it, I think the adjudicators have reached the best possible compromise available to them.

It is clear that there are unresolved questions, questions that were not going to be answered in the time available.

Banning the kid from competing would seem to overstep the needs of the case and have a severe impact on a child who, if the test result is genuine and valid, almost certainly had no participation in the doping other than being a target and victim.

From the words of the adjudicators report, I surmise that they were alive to the same issues I had raised and I am pleased about that.
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I read carefully everything you wrote about doing business with Russians....they will always wait for the moment to rob and destroy you.

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Re: Ugh, a more complex tale emerges
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2022, 07:10:46 AM »
Although the testing report carried out by WADA in Sweden following her event in SPB on 25th December has not been made public, it seems that Valieva had two other drugs in her system at the time.

Both the other drugs were declared on the testing form and both are legally used. They both are used by athletes to improve heart performance.

From what I have seen, the commentary seems to be that this supports the idea that she was being knowingly doped. I am not so sure. If she was being given legal products to enhance performance, why would one also give an illegal one? It would have been unlikely that the drug would not have been picked up.

But, yeah, more complications.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2022, 09:07:54 PM »
I suspect that all of the anxiety and stress of the situation, specifically that she tested positive for a banned substance, came to bear on Kamila Valieva. She fell at least twice and consequently did not medal. This was of course a major upset to her, she was seen crying and in really bad emotional sorts after her performance. To make matters worse, one of her coach's said something very harsh to her. Hopefully she will fire that coach. I don't believe that she knowingly took the banned substance, it seems to me that her cruel coach is the most likely suspect.


https://news.yahoo.com/kamila-valieva-falls-multiple-times-135854801.html


https://news.yahoo.com/kamila-valievas-coach-harshly-criticized-164128809.html
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2022, 09:20:17 PM »
A very interesting article about Kamila's controversial coach. Apparently young girls doing quads have a shelf life due to how hard it is on their bodies after they hit puberty.


https://www.businessinsider.com/the-revered-but-controversial-coach-who-could-make-olympic-history-2022-2?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=yahoo.com
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2022, 11:42:44 PM »
One of the ROC girls who did medal also had a meltdown directly prior to the ceremony but I couldn't figure out what had upset her... she won! Way too much pressure on those girls and the subsequent drama must hellish to live through.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2022, 11:56:05 AM »
One of the ROC girls who did medal also had a meltdown directly prior to the ceremony but I couldn't figure out what had upset her... she won! Way too much pressure on those girls and the subsequent drama must hellish to live through.


I noticed that. Wasn't sure if she was upset on behalf of Kamila or upset that she didn't win the Gold medal. Her name is Trusova IIRC and she won the Silver.

Yes their coach put them thru too much. One of their cohorts was injured so badly that she had to go home in a wheelchair at a previous event. Their coach does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
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Re: Phenomenal Russian Ice Skater
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2022, 07:24:02 PM »
I read carefully everything you wrote about doing business with Russians....they will always wait for the moment to rob and destroy you.