The Insanity of US Warmongers pushing Confrontation w/ Russia

[Bodine]

While this actually needs updating, this undoubtedly suffices the point 'we' are in fact 'funding and supplying Ukraine with weapons to fight those in the Donbas'.

As for NATO membership:

NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.  We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Interestingly, this was back in April 2008. 4 months prior to the Georgia-Russo war....2 years prior to the poll taken in Ukraine which the majority polled against NATO membership.

[mhr7]

I'm speechless 

That's a first. My mistake.

[mhr7]

While this actually needs updating, this undoubtedly suffices the point 'we' are in fact 'funding and supplying Ukraine with weapons to fight those in the Donbas'.

As for NATO membership:

NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.  We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Interestingly, this was back in April 2008. 4 months prior to the Georgia-Russo war....2 years prior to the poll taken in Ukraine which the majority polled against NATO membership.

Your article is from 2022 after Putin invaded Ukraine and started a war. Of course, we are now giving aid to Ukraine.

[BC]

mhr7

seems the document was updated in July 2022

I can't find a list of the changes, though.

03 Apr. 2008 -|Press Release (2008) 049Issued on 03 Apr. 2008|Last updated: 05 Jul. 2022 16:06

As for the support given (MAP), it's defined here:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37356.htm

[Bodine]

While this actually needs updating, this undoubtedly suffices the point 'we' are in fact 'funding and supplying Ukraine with weapons to fight those in the Donbas'.

As for NATO membership:

NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.  We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Interestingly, this was back in April 2008. 4 months prior to the Georgia-Russo war....2 years prior to the poll taken in Ukraine which the majority polled against NATO membership.

Your article is from 2022 after Putin invaded Ukraine and started a war. Of course, we are now giving aid to Ukraine.

It isn't an article. It's a NATO press release, dated April 2008. Bucharest Summit Declaration.

As for weapon and funding support, if you read the the white house statement, it specifically said: 'Since the start of the Biden administration', which would be 2021.

I hate posting 'articles' but hard to forget during the Trump administration's tribulations about the accsation of a 'quid pro quo', accusing Trump of witholding 'Congress-approved' shipment of weapons and security assiatnce to Ukraine.

"The U.S. has committed more than $1.5 billion in security assistance to Ukraine since 2014, when Russian-backed separatists began driving tanks through eastern Ukraine. The latest equipment was largely more of the same aid the U.S. previously supplied, aimed at helping Ukraine monitor and secure its borders, deploy its forces more safely and effectively, and make progress toward NATO interoperability."

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/09/25/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-us-aid-package-to-ukraine-that-trump-delayed/

[mhr7]

While this actually needs updating, this undoubtedly suffices the point 'we' are in fact 'funding and supplying Ukraine with weapons to fight those in the Donbas'.

As for NATO membership:

NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.  We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Interestingly, this was back in April 2008. 4 months prior to the Georgia-Russo war....2 years prior to the poll taken in Ukraine which the majority polled against NATO membership.

Your article is from 2022 after Putin invaded Ukraine and started a war. Of course, we are now giving aid to Ukraine.

It isn't an article. It's a NATO press release, dated April 2008. Bucharest Summit Declaration.

I was referring to your White House fact sheet. Although it is interesting that NATO has been considering membership for Ukraine and Georgia for so long. I think it shows how cautious they're being about antagonizing Putin.

[Bodine]

I was referring to your White House fact sheet. Although it is interesting that NATO has been considering membership for Ukraine and Georgia for so long. I think it shows how cautious they're being about antagonizing Putin.

See above 'edited' post.

[Bodine]

Here are a more 'credible' sources to address mhr7's inquiry.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/

Since 2014, the United States has provided more than $45.4 billion in security assistance for training and equipment to help Ukraine preserve its territorial integrity, secure its borders, and improve interoperability with NATO.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/lethal-weapons-to-ukraine-a-primer/

In a rare show of bipartisanship in 2014, the US Congress passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which appropriated $350 million in security assistance, including anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, to the government of Ukraine to defend its territorial integrity. Despite strong congressional backing, President Barack Obama decided not to authorize the US government sale or financing of lethal weapons to Ukraine. However, this policy did not prevent the private export of US-made lethal weapons to Ukraine.

During the Obama administration, direct commercial sales of small shipments of lethal arms to Ukraine were reviewed, approved, and licensed on a case-by-case basis by the Department of State in consultation with the Department of Defense. The US government authorized nearly $27 million of commercial defense articles and services to Ukraine in 2016 and about $68 million in 2015, portions of which are classified as lethal weaponry.

It'll be silly to assume Obama had no knowledge of lethal weapons being exported to Ukraine as early as 2014/2015 covertly or otherwise.

[Contrarian]

For the dumb phocks on this forum (bc, mhr7, halo) I will repeat:

Ukraine has never had any real geopolitical importance to US sovereignty, in fact the opposite is true:

The World is now on the verge of a Nuclear War, thanks to the insanity of the warmongers and war profiteers, who control our foreign policy, against the intentions of our Founding Fathers.

Ukraine has always been in Russia's sphere of influence, just like Cuba and other countries closer to the USA are in our sphere of influence. Furthermore, Ukraine has always had a very large Russian speaking population and Ukraine was historically attached to Russia.

Only West Ukraine was mostly ethnic Ukrainian language and culture, and Ukraine itself was an artificially created nation by Stalin, who took large parts of Poland in the process.

Ukraine has always been one of the most corrupt countries in the World, admitted by "halo" in the past, as well she admitted that Ukraine was a "failed state" entirely reliant on the West for financial handouts.

The USA is already planning to abandon Ukraine, leaving the country deep in debt to the likes of Blackrock and with at least half-a-Million dead and severely wounded mostly white Christian soldiers. Single women who tried to go to Sweden for example felt safer and more comfortable back in safter parts of Ukraine.

It will take decades to rebuild Ukraine and the men and some women who fought the War will slowly realize how badly they were deceived by London and WA DC. The country will never be the same and chances are that some cities will have unsafe parts for the mostly white Christians who once made up the Nation.

Wars only benefit the 1%, in both countries. The War was clearly manipulated into existence by the likes of Soros and the CIA in a typical "color revolution", all for the Ego of the warmongers and war profiteers, none of whom would ever send their children or themselves, to actually fight a war.

Can anyone imagine the obese ugly Victoria Nuland (a made up name to hide her real name) actually going off and fighting a war? How about any of the children of these warmongers?

BC and the other traitors who trot out words like "democracy" don't know anything about it.

Athenian Democracy was far different than what people suppose that it was. It was far more exclusive. And yet Plato criticized it vigorously.

Quote

"Athenian democracy was a remarkable institution, and remarkably different than what passes for democracy today.  To begin with, the population of the state (or polis) was small—it constituted only some 300,000 people at its peak, which included many slaves and foreigners.  By modern standards, this seems tiny but, for the time, it was extremely large.  Of this number, the only formal citizens were the adult native-born males, numbering perhaps 30,000, or just 10 percent of the population.  These citizens—the demos, the people—were the formal basis of political power, rather than some ruling wealthy elite (also known as oligarchs or plutocrats), or some tyrannical dictator, as could be found in other Greek states.

The democratic system, inaugurated by Cleisthenes around 500 BC, functioned in a very different way than we might expect.  For one, there were no elections; all leadership positions (apart from the military) were chosen by lot, at random, from among the citizens who had put forth their names.  This included even the leader of the Assembly—the collected body of citizens—who was effectively the president of the nation, though without much formal power.  The Greeks had invented a device called a kleroterion into which names were randomly inserted on small tokens; colored dice were then deployed to select names randomly and fairly from among the various tribes or families.  The system had several virtues:  immediate results, no costly or corrupted election campaigns, fairness, transparency, and an equal involvement of all concerned.  The Greeks clearly had to be nice to all their fellow (Athenian male) citizens, any one of whom could someday have a position of prominence.

Secondly, there were no representatives.  Athens was a famously direct democracy.  All interested citizens gathered on a large open hilltop, called the Pnyx, roughly once per month, to listen to the issues of the day.  When the time came for decisions, a very public show of hands determined the outcome.  Even the gravest of matters, such as going to war, were decided this way.  This is all the more striking when we consider that the army was composed of the very men who had themselves just voted for war.  In other words, when you voted for war, you personally went to war.  And many never returned.  We can only imagine a similar situation in America today:  that the Congressmen and women who support the next illegal and unjust foreign war[6] would be compelled to be on the first combat plane into the warzone.  I suspect that we would have very few wars indeed.

In sum, Athenian democracy was small, direct, accountable, and transparent.  The wealthy elite had very little power to steer events in their favor.  The citizenry comprised only native men; foreigners had literally no voice in the state, even though they outnumbered the actual citizens by a factor of two or three.  Greek democracy was thus a racial (White European), ethnic (Athenian), and gendered (men only) system of rule.  And it worked incredibly well; it produced and sustained the brilliant Athenian culture that we know today.

https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2021/11/15/america-must-die-so-that-the-people-can-live/

[Texan77]

The USA is already planning to abandon Ukraine, leaving the country deep in debt to the likes of Blackrock and with at least half-a-Million dead and severely wounded mostly white Christian soldiers.

So why does Russia not just wait for us to leave?

[rosco]

The USA is already planning to abandon Ukraine, leaving the country deep in debt to the likes of Blackrock and with at least half-a-Million dead and severely wounded mostly white Christian soldiers.

So why does Russia not just wait for us to leave?

It's a very simple one Tex, even you've got a chance of working it out.

Russia stop fighting, Ukraine starts winning and the US will decide to continue their support. The reason they're looking at an exit strategy, is because they've thrown everything at it and Russia are winning.

They've pretty much got the lands they wanted to secure and the counter offensive has been a disaster. Russia have now turned defence into attack and are taking land faster than you can shout nazi.

[Texan77]

Just maybe the USA is not going to leave for a very long time because of the war. Actually, Russian has driven Ukraine to be very close to the USA where if Russia behaved differently there would not be such a close relationship between the USA and Ukraine. It is all just more bad foreign policy on Russia part.

[Contrarian]

Just maybe the USA is not going to leave for a very long time because of the war. Actually, Russian has driven Ukraine to be very close to the USA where if Russia behaved differently there would not be such a close relationship between the USA and Ukraine. It is all just more bad foreign policy on Russia part.

But never "more bad foreign policy on the part of the USA" 

[Contrarian]

Just maybe the USA is not going to leave for a very long time because of the war. Actually, Russian has driven Ukraine to be very close to the USA where if Russia behaved differently there would not be such a close relationship between the USA and Ukraine. It is all just more bad foreign policy on Russia part.

But never "more bad foreign policy on the part of the USA" 

I'll just put this article here.

https://www.westernjournal.com/undercover-video-exposes-blackrock-recruiter-bragging-little-takes-buy-senator/

[rosco]

Just maybe the USA is not going to leave for a very long time because of the war.

Yea I can see them doing 20 years, now that parts of your country are falling into disrepair, society has broken down and your credit rating relegated.

Remember it took the US 20 years to replace the Taliban with a better armed Taliban. What you gonna do about Russia, leave them F16's? 

[BC]

BC and the other traitors who trot out words like "democracy" don't know anything about it.

Well, please feel free to expound on your version of "democracy".  I doubt it will resemble anything close to reality.

[Halo]

For the dumb phocks on this forum (bc, mhr7, halo) I will repeat:

Ukraine has never had any real geopolitical importance to US sovereignty, in fact the opposite is true:

I have never claimed Ukraine has geopolotical importance to the US.  If you're going to "attack", at least do so for what I have posted.

Ukraine has always been in Russia's sphere of influence, just like Cuba and other countries closer to the USA are in our sphere of influence. Furthermore, Ukraine has always had a very large Russian speaking population and Ukraine was historically attached to Russia.

It continued to be even after independence.  Even up to 2014, Russia was Ukraine's largest trading partner.  Millions of Ukrainians worked in Russia.  Education could be in either Russian or Ukrainian in all parts of Ukraine.

Only West Ukraine was mostly ethnic Ukrainian language and culture, and Ukraine itself was an artificially created nation by Stalin, who took large parts of Poland in the process.

Untrue.  First, EVERY region of Ukraine had an ethnically Ukrainian majority, other than the city of Donetsk, which was 60% ethnically Russian (self identified).  In all those regions, no one speaks what a "Russian" would view as "Russian".  The language is mixed, even in Donetsk.  I hear that language now from refugees.

Second, Ukraine declared independence in early 1918.  It had an independent government until it fell in 1921.  At that time, in the Russian Empire half of Ukraine, 11% of the population was ethnically Russian, living solely in cities.  That has always been the case.  Go to any village in Ukraine, and the inhabitants are ethnic Ukrainians.  At some point, there were villages filled with Germans (exclusively in Southern Ukraine), but they either emigrated, or were all deported to Siberia by Stalin.  Their villages were not taken over by anyone.

Ukraine has always been one of the most corrupt countries in the World, admitted by "halo" in the past, as well she admitted that Ukraine was a "failed state" entirely reliant on the West for financial handouts.

This has not been the case for at least seven years. There was a major push after Maidan to tackle corruption.  Ukraine is still corrupt, but it is not even among the "Top 10" in terms of corruption.  Russia is now, and has, for a number of years, been far more corrupt than Ukraine, and thanks to its resources, it has a huge pot to divvy up.  The imposition of martial law in Ukraine is also helping target corruption.  I think it will take a generation, but inroads are being made.  Not so in Russia. 

Ukraine also was making inroads in building a state, and that too, is attributable to Maidan activists.  The two (building a state/eliminating corruption) go hand in hand. 

You need to keep up with the times. 

It will take decades to rebuild Ukraine and the men and some women who fought the War will slowly realize how badly they were deceived by London and WA DC. The country will never be the same and chances are that some cities will have unsafe parts for the mostly white Christians who once made up the Nation.

As opposed to the Russians who INVADED?  When London or Washington INVADES Ukraine and lobs rockets at Ukrainian children, then mocks their deaths in Telegram channels, you'll have a point.

Wars only benefit the 1%, in both countries. The War was clearly manipulated into existence by the likes of Soros and the CIA in a typical "color revolution", all for the Ego of the warmongers and war profiteers, none of whom would ever send their children or themselves, to actually fight a war.

Did Soros or the CIA INVADE Ukraine? 

Another poster elsewhere, who is a bit crazy but quite prescient, stated that the Putin cabal were worried about a Maidan in their own country.  I think there is some truth in that, but I think this was about seizing Ukrainian enterprises and lands for the benefit of oligarchs.  They've stolen everything in Russia, so they needed new markets to exploit without actually doing any real work.

BC and the other traitors who trot out words like "democracy" don't know anything about it.

Neither does anyone who supports the Putin regime.

[Contrarian]

I don't support either government. As a pragmatic military man I supported a solution with the least casualties. That does not mean I support war mongering by either side.

The media in Ukraine has provoked Russia for a decade or so and the media in Russia has provoked Ukraine. Both poor examples of a lack of diplomacy.

As far as Soros and the color revolution caused by the CIA -- yes, that's an invasion. Yanukovich was Democratically elected. That election was watched and certified by most of Europe as having been a Democratic election.

Polls of the Ukrainian people always came back negative to the idea of Ukraine joining Nato. But no, warmongers and war profiteers could not take no for an example, so they overthrew the democratically elected Yanukovich.

Was he corrupt? It's a moot point. Ukraine elected him.

Ukraine isn't so corrupt anymore?   

Billions of dollars laundered by the US have been stolen by corrupt politicians in Ukraine. The weapons paid for by US taxpayers have shown up all over the World, instead of in the hands of Ukrainian soldiers.

Intelligent and legitimate leaders of Nations do everything they can to avoid war, save lives, save infrastructure and avoid further indebtedness to the likes of the predatory lenders at Blackrock.

I suspect a large percentage of Ukrainian young men and women know that they've been screwed over by the West and in particular by the Biden regime.

This war never would have happened had the election of President Trump been upheld.

[mhr7]

Polls of the Ukrainian people always came back negative to the idea of Ukraine joining Nato.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/record-83-ukrainians-want-nato-membership-poll-2022-10-03/

[Contrarian]

Polls of the Ukrainian people always came back negative to the idea of Ukraine joining Nato.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/record-83-ukrainians-want-nato-membership-poll-2022-10-03/

Sure numb nuts, after US warmongers manipulated a war into existence ...I was obviously referring to years back. Try to keep up.

[mhr7]

Polls of the Ukrainian people always came back negative to the idea of Ukraine joining Nato.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/record-83-ukrainians-want-nato-membership-poll-2022-10-03/

Sure numb nuts, after US warmongers manipulated a war into existence...I was obviously referring to years back. Try to keep up.

You don't give the Ukrainians any credit for actually deciding their own future.

[Contrarian]

Polls of the Ukrainian people always came back negative to the idea of Ukraine joining Nato.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/record-83-ukrainians-want-nato-membership-poll-2022-10-03/

Sure numb nuts, after US warmongers manipulated a war into existence  ...I was obviously referring to years back. Try to keep up.

You don't give the Ukrainians any credit for actually deciding their own future.

I don't believe Western manipulated polls nor do I trust a cocaine addicted actor pretending to be a leader who has outlawed opposing media views in Ukraine.

[Texan77]

[quote author=Contrarian link=topic=29769.msg549004#msg549004 date=1692758231

I don't believe Western manipulated polls nor do I trust a cocaine addicted actor pretending to be a leader who has outlawed opposing media views in Ukraine.
[/quote]

So, you trust genocidal imperialist who has outlawed opposing media views in Russia.

[Contrarian]

Biden stumbling about, falling down stairs, crashing his bicycle, gives Billions to this clown. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/06/01/president-biden-falls-handing-out-diplomas-at-air-force-academy/70278540007/

https://wegotthiscovered.com/news/volodymyr-zelenskyy-viral-playing-piano-with-penis/

[Wiz]

Biden stumbling about, falling down stairs, crashing his bicycle, gives Billions to this clown. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/06/01/president-biden-falls-handing-out-diplomas-at-air-force-academy/70278540007/

https://wegotthiscovered.com/news/volodymyr-zelenskyy-viral-playing-piano-with-penis/