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Author Topic: Victory day...  (Read 1377 times)

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Online Steveboy

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Victory day...
« on: May 09, 2021, 04:52:51 AM »
Shame on you lot!! have you forgot today is Victory day!

I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2021, 05:28:16 AM »
Its also mothers day :)

Happy V'Day / Mothers day all!
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2021, 07:47:29 AM »
From the web site of V. Zelensky.

"What is victory over Nazism for us? It is gratitude. Which has no boundaries, statutes of limitations or geographical division," he said. "This is memory. About its horrible price. About the fact that more than eight million Ukrainians died in World War II. That every fifth Ukrainian did not return home. In total, the war claimed at least 50 million lives."

"This is at least seven million Ukrainians, without whom victory would be impossible," he added.

"And for us, the victory over Nazism is a treasure gained through suffering, not another reason to go for barbecues. These are not stickers on cars, but flowers on the grave of ancestors. This is not a carnival, not a costume party, and certainly not a photo shoot of politicians in the uniform of an army to which they had nothing to do, with a machine gun that they do not know how to hold in their hands…This is involvement in a great cause for humanity," he said.
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Online Gipsy

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2021, 10:18:56 AM »
From the web site of V. Zelensky.

"What is victory over Nazism for us? It is gratitude. Which has no boundaries, statutes of limitations or geographical division," he said. "This is memory. About its horrible price. About the fact that more than eight million Ukrainians died in World War II. That every fifth Ukrainian did not return home. In total, the war claimed at least 50 million lives."

"This is at least seven million Ukrainians, without whom victory would be impossible," he added.

"And for us, the victory over Nazism is a treasure gained through suffering, not another reason to go for barbecues. These are not stickers on cars, but flowers on the grave of ancestors. This is not a carnival, not a costume party, and certainly not a photo shoot of politicians in the uniform of an army to which they had nothing to do, with a machine gun that they do not know how to hold in their hands…This is involvement in a great cause for humanity," he said.

Yeah right...

He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..

Very convenient ...
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2021, 11:00:52 AM »
He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..


Who's doing the estimation? Did you know all the people at the Capitol on Jan 5th were White Supremacists? Anytime a government doesn't like a group of people, they apply the Nazi label on them. Doesn't mean it's true. I'm a minority and I've been all over Western Ukraine where the Nazi's are supposed to live and I never felt threatened.

There is a history where Ukrainians joined the Nazis to fight Stalin but it wasn't about a partnership among people who think alike, it was business.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2021, 11:03:25 AM »
He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..


Who's doing the estimation? Did you know all the people at the Capitol on Jan 5th were White Supremacists? Anytime a government doesn't like a group of people, they apply the Nazi label on them. Doesn't mean it's true. I'm a minority and I've been all over Western Ukraine where the Nazi's are supposed to live and I never felt threatened.

There is a history where Ukrainians joined the Nazis to fight Stalin but it wasn't about a partnership among people who think alike, it was business.

They labeled themselves neo-nazi. Complete with nazi swastika hitler salute and ideology
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2021, 11:15:17 AM »
He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..


Who's doing the estimation? Did you know all the people at the Capitol on Jan 5th were White Supremacists? Anytime a government doesn't like a group of people, they apply the Nazi label on them. Doesn't mean it's true. I'm a minority and I've been all over Western Ukraine where the Nazi's are supposed to live and I never felt threatened.

There is a history where Ukrainians joined the Nazis to fight Stalin but it wasn't about a partnership among people who think alike, it was business.

They labeled themselves neo-nazi. Complete with nazi swastika hitler salute and ideology

I haven't seen 30% of the Ukrainians wearing swastikas. I haven't even seen ONE Ukrainian wearing a swastika in my many travels to Ukraine. I live in America where a hundred thousand Ukrainians settled and haven't seen anybody wearing a swastika.

In the past when a civilian army such as the one in Ukraine joins an organized government army in the case Nazis, they are likely to use the gear, including guns and clothes the organized army gives them. People once thought America supported the terrorists called the Taliban and America supplied them with the gear to fight the Soviets. It wasn't friendship, it was business. People once thought America supported the dictator Saddam Hussein in his fight against Iran. It wasn't friendship, it was business.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2021, 11:59:56 AM »
From the web site of V. Zelensky.

"What is victory over Nazism for us? It is gratitude. Which has no boundaries, statutes of limitations or geographical division," he said. "This is memory. About its horrible price. About the fact that more than eight million Ukrainians died in World War II. That every fifth Ukrainian did not return home. In total, the war claimed at least 50 million lives."

"This is at least seven million Ukrainians, without whom victory would be impossible," he added.

"And for us, the victory over Nazism is a treasure gained through suffering, not another reason to go for barbecues. These are not stickers on cars, but flowers on the grave of ancestors. This is not a carnival, not a costume party, and certainly not a photo shoot of politicians in the uniform of an army to which they had nothing to do, with a machine gun that they do not know how to hold in their hands…This is involvement in a great cause for humanity," he said.

Is this quote accurate?

How is it that first he says more than 8 million Ukrainians lost their lives, then he goes on to say “at least 7 million”.

Is he really bad at math? Didn’t someone check the speech first?

Other than that it’s a good speech.

And give a rest about the nazi talk.
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2021, 12:00:57 PM »
He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..


Who's doing the estimation? Did you know all the people at the Capitol on Jan 5th were White Supremacists? Anytime a government doesn't like a group of people, they apply the Nazi label on them. Doesn't mean it's true. I'm a minority and I've been all over Western Ukraine where the Nazi's are supposed to live and I never felt threatened.

There is a history where Ukrainians joined the Nazis to fight Stalin but it wasn't about a partnership among people who think alike, it was business.

This.
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2021, 12:10:51 PM »
From the web site of V. Zelensky.

"What is victory over Nazism for us? It is gratitude. Which has no boundaries, statutes of limitations or geographical division," he said. "This is memory. About its horrible price. About the fact that more than eight million Ukrainians died in World War II. That every fifth Ukrainian did not return home. In total, the war claimed at least 50 million lives."

"This is at least seven million Ukrainians, without whom victory would be impossible," he added.

"And for us, the victory over Nazism is a treasure gained through suffering, not another reason to go for barbecues. These are not stickers on cars, but flowers on the grave of ancestors. This is not a carnival, not a costume party, and certainly not a photo shoot of politicians in the uniform of an army to which they had nothing to do, with a machine gun that they do not know how to hold in their hands…This is involvement in a great cause for humanity," he said.

Yeah right...

He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..

Very convenient ...

When 7 million of your people are intentionally starved to death by Stalin, you might be more inclined to listen to the other guy.

I note that the Russians often conveniently forget they were friends and allies with Hitler up until June of 1941.
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Offline B.B.

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2021, 12:12:16 PM »
Shame on you lot!! have you forgot today is Victory day!

I posted abt it on my social media and congratulated some Russians I know personally.  As my dad was a WWII guy, they congratulated me also.

B/B
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2021, 12:37:33 PM »
Shame on you lot!! have you forgot today is Victory day!

I posted abt it on my social media and congratulated some Russians I know personally.  As my dad was a WWII guy, they congratulated me also.

B/B

 :thumbsup:
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2021, 01:29:02 PM »
From the web site of V. Zelensky.

"What is victory over Nazism for us? It is gratitude. Which has no boundaries, statutes of limitations or geographical division," he said. "This is memory. About its horrible price. About the fact that more than eight million Ukrainians died in World War II. That every fifth Ukrainian did not return home. In total, the war claimed at least 50 million lives."

"This is at least seven million Ukrainians, without whom victory would be impossible," he added.

"And for us, the victory over Nazism is a treasure gained through suffering, not another reason to go for barbecues. These are not stickers on cars, but flowers on the grave of ancestors. This is not a carnival, not a costume party, and certainly not a photo shoot of politicians in the uniform of an army to which they had nothing to do, with a machine gun that they do not know how to hold in their hands…This is involvement in a great cause for humanity," he said.

Yeah right...

He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..

Very convenient ...

When 7 million of your people are intentionally starved to death by Stalin, you might be more inclined to listen to the other guy.

I think that the figure was more like 3.5-3.9 million.
When the other guy sanctions the many recent neo-Nazi marches carried out in many of his countries cities, including his capitol city, then, in my mind,  the guy has nothing worth listening to.
Russians celebrate Victory Day, the final destruction of Hitler's Nazi's, it is NOT a celebration of other shameful situations brought about by Stalin in the USSR days.

I note that the Russians often conveniently forget they were friends and allies with Hitler up until June of 1941.

I also note that the rise of the third Reich, and much of the war was financed by US bankers
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2021, 02:32:55 PM »
From the web site of V. Zelensky.

"What is victory over Nazism for us? It is gratitude. Which has no boundaries, statutes of limitations or geographical division," he said. "This is memory. About its horrible price. About the fact that more than eight million Ukrainians died in World War II. That every fifth Ukrainian did not return home. In total, the war claimed at least 50 million lives."

"This is at least seven million Ukrainians, without whom victory would be impossible," he added.

"And for us, the victory over Nazism is a treasure gained through suffering, not another reason to go for barbecues. These are not stickers on cars, but flowers on the grave of ancestors. This is not a carnival, not a costume party, and certainly not a photo shoot of politicians in the uniform of an army to which they had nothing to do, with a machine gun that they do not know how to hold in their hands…This is involvement in a great cause for humanity," he said.

Yeah right...

He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..

Very convenient ...

When 7 million of your people are intentionally starved to death by Stalin, you might be more inclined to listen to the other guy.

I think that the figure was more like 3.5-3.9 million.
When the other guy sanctions the many recent neo-Nazi marches carried out in many of his countries cities, including his capitol city, then, in my mind,  the guy has nothing worth listening to.
Russians celebrate Victory Day, the final destruction of Hitler's Nazi's, it is NOT a celebration of other shameful situations brought about by Stalin in the USSR days.

I note that the Russians often conveniently forget they were friends and allies with Hitler up until June of 1941.

I also note that the rise of the third Reich, and much of the war was financed by US bankers

And what was the ethnicity of those "US bankers"?

It's no mystery that the Bolsheviks were financed by "US bankers" as well.

Pitting the Soviets agains the Germans was intentional. Figure it out. And I disagree with your Holodomor figures.
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2021, 02:44:58 PM »
I think that the figure was more like 3.5-3.9 million.
When the other guy sanctions the many recent neo-Nazi marches carried out in many of his countries cities, including his capitol city, then, in my mind,  the guy has nothing worth listening to.
Russians celebrate Victory Day, the final destruction of Hitler's Nazi's, it is NOT a celebration of other shameful situations brought about by Stalin in the USSR days.
Pitting the Soviets agains the Germans was intentional. Figure it out. And I disagree with your Holodomor figures.

The Holodomor was an unforgivable act , never the less, the death toll Gipsy mentioned was correct. All the higher figures includes non-born children because women died.

Quote
In 2002, Ukrainian historian Stanislav Kulchytsky, using demographic data including those recently unclassified, narrowed the losses to about 3.2 million or, allowing for the lack of precise data, 3 million to 3.5 million

source:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Death_toll
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Offline Halo

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2021, 02:48:41 PM »
From the web site of V. Zelensky.

"What is victory over Nazism for us? It is gratitude. Which has no boundaries, statutes of limitations or geographical division," he said. "This is memory. About its horrible price. About the fact that more than eight million Ukrainians died in World War II. That every fifth Ukrainian did not return home. In total, the war claimed at least 50 million lives."

"This is at least seven million Ukrainians, without whom victory would be impossible," he added.

"And for us, the victory over Nazism is a treasure gained through suffering, not another reason to go for barbecues. These are not stickers on cars, but flowers on the grave of ancestors. This is not a carnival, not a costume party, and certainly not a photo shoot of politicians in the uniform of an army to which they had nothing to do, with a machine gun that they do not know how to hold in their hands…This is involvement in a great cause for humanity," he said.

Yeah right...

He failed to mention the estimated 30% of current Ukrainian's who support Nazism..

Very convenient ...

It's not a support of Nazism.  Western Ukrainians were victims of the Nazis as well, with millions taken as slave labourers to Germany.

The fact that Western Ukrainian support those who wanted to fight for their emancipation from the Stalinist regime does not mean they support the Nazis.

You may want to spend less time here and more reading some actual history. 

PS - The most recent estimate of direct Holodomor victims (i.e., deaths) is 4 to 4.5 million.  That is based on studies of actual demographic numbers from Soviet archives.
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Offline B.B.

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2021, 03:05:18 PM »
I note that the Russians often conveniently forget they were friends and allies with Hitler up until June of 1941.

I also note that the rise of the third Reich, and much of the war was financed by US bankers

Was it US bankers whose tanks rolled into Poland from the East?  Asking for a friend.

The Holodomor was an unforgivable act , never the less, the death toll Gipsy mentioned was correct. All the higher figures includes non-born children because women died.

I think the proper word is "genocide" - much like how Stalin reduced the Kazaks to being an ethnic minority in a country NAMED after them.

At any rate it appears that we are proving Stalin's famous dictum correct: "The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions is a statistic."

B/B

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2021, 05:08:46 PM »
It's not a support of Nazism.  Western Ukrainians were victims of the Nazis as well, with millions taken as slave labourers to Germany.
And therefore its so troubling that they currently have such widespread support of neo-nazi's.

The fact that Western Ukrainian support those who wanted to fight for their emancipation from the Stalinist regime does not mean they support the Nazis.
No the nazi flag, hitler-salute, propaganda / ideals they are spreading and behaving like nazis + declaring themselves nazi is clear enough for me to say they support the Nazi.

Quote
You may want to spend less time here and more reading some actual history. 
Gipsy wasn't talking about history, he was talking about current events, this month happening right under Zelenski's nose in his own Capital city of Kiev.

Quote
PS - The most recent estimate of direct Holodomor victims (i.e., deaths) is 4 to 4.5 million.  That is based on studies of actual demographic numbers from Soviet archives.
It was 3 - 3.5 mil, already quoted source upthread for that.

And of course B.B. was correct on that, it was genocide , Stalin had no love for human life. The way he treated soldiers, ukrainians, kazakhs, etc. etc. shows that quite clearly.

Luckily, all the world (including Russia) is aware of that and will not allow for stalin-worship anywhere anymore.
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2021, 05:24:11 PM »
One of the preeminent historians of Ukraine, John-Paul Himka, who had access to all Soviet archives, puts the deaths at 4 million.  Other historians put it at 4.5 million.  That's why I chose a number range. 

As for Nazis, there are not Nazis roaming the streets of Kyiv, no matter what your Russian news sources state.  It's a ridiculous assertion.  There are about as many neo Nazis in Ukraine, proportionately, as there are in Russia, other Eastern European, and Western European countries.  In fact, I'd assume less in Central Ukraine, as they experienced a particularly brutal occupation, and young people would not dishonour the memories of their grandparents and great grandparents in this way.  There is far, far more nostalgia for Soviet times in what was "Left Bank" Ukraine than admiration for Nazis. 
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2021, 06:36:57 PM »
One of the preeminent historians of Ukraine, John-Paul Himka, who had access to all Soviet archives, puts the deaths at 4 million.  Other historians put it at 4.5 million.  That's why I chose a number range. 

As for Nazis, there are not Nazis roaming the streets of Kyiv, no matter what your Russian news sources state.  It's a ridiculous assertion.  There are about as many neo Nazis in Ukraine, proportionately, as there are in Russia, other Eastern European, and Western European countries.  In fact, I'd assume less in Central Ukraine, as they experienced a particularly brutal occupation, and young people would not dishonour the memories of their grandparents and great grandparents in this way.  There is far, far more nostalgia for Soviet times in what was "Left Bank" Ukraine than admiration for Nazis.

Well "left bank" Ukraine does include the Donbas and we know what has happened there.

Having said that I think it was in poor taste to bring it up. It's not the proper day for that sort of propaganda.
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2021, 06:44:48 PM »
I note that the Russians often conveniently forget they were friends and allies with Hitler up until June of 1941.

I also note that the rise of the third Reich, and much of the war was financed by US bankers

Was it US bankers whose tanks rolled into Poland from the East?  Asking for a friend.


Well that is why they chose him, they knew he had a predisposition for wanting to rule the World. And quite frankly Preston Bush should have rotted in prison for trading with the enemy. Can't have it both ways.

And yes, he gave a black eye to the idea of Nationalism ever since then. Which is why it was so easy for TPTB to attack Trump for saying he was a Nationalist; or shall we say, an America First type of President.

The Holodomor was an unforgivable act , never the less, the death toll Gipsy mentioned was correct. All the higher figures includes non-born children because women died.

I think the proper word is "genocide" - much like how Stalin reduced the Kazaks to being an ethnic minority in a country NAMED after them.

At any rate it appears that we are proving Stalin's famous dictum correct: "The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions is a statistic."

B/B

Definitely genocide.

I wonder if Biden will declare as such, since he's now done that for Armenia?

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2021, 01:17:26 AM »
It's not a support of Nazism.  Western Ukrainians were victims of the Nazis as well, with millions taken as slave labourers to Germany.
And therefore its so troubling that they currently have such widespread support of neo-nazi's.

The fact that Western Ukrainian support those who wanted to fight for their emancipation from the Stalinist regime does not mean they support the Nazis.
No the nazi flag, hitler-salute, propaganda / ideals they are spreading and behaving like nazis + declaring themselves nazi is clear enough for me to say they support the Nazi.

Quote
You may want to spend less time here and more reading some actual history. 
Gipsy wasn't talking about history, he was talking about current events, this month happening right under Zelenski's nose in his own Capital city of Kiev.


Basically Mark is parroting Russian propaganda, the Kremlin is pretty good at this tactic. I suspect he is referring to Svoboda.

Svoboda, a party started in the last century that had some very neo-facist standpoints at that time. In the last 10 years they have become far more centerist, but also in the last two election cycles have not gained any seats in Verhovna Rada (Parliament). Certainly there are individuals in Ukraine, as well as The Netherlands and The United States that espouse standpoints of Nazism. I suspect they do not understand how fundamentally evil they were, but the same can be said of the Soviets and there leader at the time.

As I recall earlier this year in the Kyiv a Third Reich swastika was painted on the walls just outside the Presidential Palalce, the perpetrators were arrested and admitted they were quite drunk at the time.
 
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2021, 01:48:39 AM »

Svoboda, . . . in the last two election cycles have not gained any seats in Verhovna Rada (Parliament).
 


I stand corrected they presently have one constituency seat in the Rada. There are in total 450 seats.
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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2021, 02:12:35 AM »
Basically Mark is parroting Russian propaganda, the Kremlin is pretty good at this tactic. I suspect he is referring to Svoboda.

Svoboda, a party started in the last century that had some very neo-facist standpoints at that time. In the last 10 years they have become far more centerist, but also in the last two election cycles have not gained any seats in Verhovna Rada (Parliament). Certainly there are individuals in Ukraine, as well as The Netherlands and The United States that espouse standpoints of Nazism. I suspect they do not understand how fundamentally evil they were, but the same can be said of the Soviets and there leader at the time.

As I recall earlier this year in the Kyiv a Third Reich swastika was painted on the walls just outside the Presidential Palalce, the perpetrators were arrested and admitted they were quite drunk at the time.
 


You do know that Propaganda works best when its actually the truth, don't you.
I picked up about these nazi's in ukrainian news, not Russian btw.

You can try to downplay anything you want, but the images and language speak for themselves, I don't even need to be ukrainian/russian speaking to understand whats going on here.

I have 1 news site and youtube after a quick google for you. Want to know more, do your own research because I am not going to be called spewing propaganda when you are in disbelieve yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4Wyo39OKhmY
https://amp.strana.ua/news/330734-marsh-v-kieve-sehodnja-onlajn-mitinh-natsionalistov-v-vyshivankakh-v-chest-divizii-ss-halichina.html
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Online Markje

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Re: Victory day...
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2021, 02:40:34 AM »
German ambassador in Kiev (anka feldhusen) said about this event:
https://twitter.com/AnkaFeldhusen/status/1387442763021660167

Quote
Waffen SS units were involved in the most serious war crimes and the Holocaust during World War II. No volunteer organization that is fighting and working for Ukraine today should be associated with them.
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My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria