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Author Topic: Would you sell an organ?  (Read 902 times)

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Online Lord of the Dance

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Would you sell an organ?
« on: March 07, 2021, 03:15:04 PM »
Would you sell one of your kidneys for $90,000 + the peace of mind knowing that you saved someone's life? I think I probably would. From an interesting text I'm reading concerning all forms of human trafficking (including organ trafficking):

"Some economists have called for legalizing the buying and selling of organs. They argue that the benefits of institutionalizing the organ trade outweigh the risks. Consider the following facts about kidney transplantation in the United States: Each day, about 13 individuals die waiting for a kidney transplant. Those who remain on the waiting list require dialysis. Dialysis costs about $75,000 per year, and most of this expense is covered by a taxpayer-funded End Stage Renal Disease Program (part of Medicare). Individuals who receive a transplant are healthier for much longer than individuals on dialysis. Also, one economist estimated that a kidney transplant yields $90,000 per patient in cost savings to taxpayers. Based on this calculation, providing a transplant for each individual on the waiting list in the U.S. would save billions of dollars per year (OR) paying donors $90,000 would allow the country to break even. As detailed throughout this chapter, there are serious ethical and bioethical concerns with allowing donors to sell their organs. But pilots of various extremes of the idea of institutionalized organ selling have yielded some positive results and information about the effectiveness of reducing transplant waiting lists.

Proponents of an open organ market argue that:
- We already sell biological products such as sperm, eggs and blood, so selling organs isn't much of a leap.
- It improves length and quality of life for recipients who are removed from organ waiting lists.
- Economically vulnerable people do dangerous things for money all the time.
- If medical professionals value autonomy, this should include allowing patients to decide whether they want to sell their organs.
- Poor people are already selling their organs out of desperation. A regulated market could ensure equitable compensation and increased safety for donors.
- A legalized organ market would drastically reduce human rights violations in the current world of trafficked organs.

Iran has legalized the selling of organs since the 1990s. Within a decade, the government claims to have eliminated the waiting list for organ recipients and created competitive demand among potential donors who are compensated about $3500." ~ Human Trafficking: a comprehensive exploration of modern day slavery (by Stickle, Hickman & White).

Just some food for thought...
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2021, 05:42:51 AM »
If people are willing to sell, and people are willing to buy, I don't see any harm in it.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2021, 08:02:42 AM »
If people are willing to sell, and people are willing to buy, I don't see any harm in it.

I can see that point of view and wouldn't argue too strongly against it but I have some concerns.

For example, there's not a whole load of organs that need transplant treatment and are not necessary for the continued life of the donor.
So, hard to have a free and open market in most of the likely cases - kidneys become a kind of special case.

What if I give up a kidney now and then need to replace the one that is left? Would the market enable me to obtain a replacement faster than normal?

If we can 'voluntarily' sell body parts, I'd be a tad concerned that this was the thin end of a wedge that led to forced sale or donation. In truth, in almost no cases would an organ sale be truly a voluntary action. It'd be forced by circumstances. Once the precedent was established, it would become easier to make the action less voluntary, even if there was still some payment to provide good optics and to salve consciences.

On the whole, I see it as being similar in many ways to prostitution. We can say 'yes a person should be free to rent out their body to another for sex'. However, we know that in many, if not most, cases the sale is not truly voluntary and the outcomes not positive. Given that, I'd prefer to see a situation where nobody felt that prostitution was the best/only choice available. Prostitution would still exist but in a different form.

I think the same applies to organ donation. Probably better to incentivise post-mortem donation than pre-mortem donation. For example, give me $30k today and you can harvest my organs after I am gone. My permission would be contractually given and no option for relatives to gainsay my choice as happens all too often today.

Done as I suggest, the cost of transplanted organs would be lower. The money would do some good here and now and one would not need to worry about the long term effects of having some bit of one's body hacked off.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2021, 02:57:35 PM »
Would you sell one of your kidneys for $90,000 + the peace of mind knowing that you saved someone's life? I think I probably would. From an interesting text I'm reading concerning all forms of human trafficking (including organ trafficking):

"Some economists have called for legalizing the buying and selling of organs. They argue that the benefits of institutionalizing the organ trade outweigh the risks. Consider the following facts about kidney transplantation in the United States: Each day, about 13 individuals die waiting for a kidney transplant. Those who remain on the waiting list require dialysis. Dialysis costs about $75,000 per year, and most of this expense is covered by a taxpayer-funded End Stage Renal Disease Program (part of Medicare). Individuals who receive a transplant are healthier for much longer than individuals on dialysis. Also, one economist estimated that a kidney transplant yields $90,000 per patient in cost savings to taxpayers. Based on this calculation, providing a transplant for each individual on the waiting list in the U.S. would save billions of dollars per year (OR) paying donors $90,000 would allow the country to break even. As detailed throughout this chapter, there are serious ethical and bioethical concerns with allowing donors to sell their organs. But pilots of various extremes of the idea of institutionalized organ selling have yielded some positive results and information about the effectiveness of reducing transplant waiting lists.

Proponents of an open organ market argue that:
- We already sell biological products such as sperm, eggs and blood, so selling organs isn't much of a leap.
- It improves length and quality of life for recipients who are removed from organ waiting lists.
- Economically vulnerable people do dangerous things for money all the time.
- If medical professionals value autonomy, this should include allowing patients to decide whether they want to sell their organs.
- Poor people are already selling their organs out of desperation. A regulated market could ensure equitable compensation and increased safety for donors.
- A legalized organ market would drastically reduce human rights violations in the current world of trafficked organs.

Iran has legalized the selling of organs since the 1990s. Within a decade, the government claims to have eliminated the waiting list for organ recipients and created competitive demand among potential donors who are compensated about $3500." ~ Human Trafficking: a comprehensive exploration of modern day slavery (by Stickle, Hickman & White).

Just some food for thought...

Would you sell one of your kidneys for $90,000  Do you happen to have their contact number?
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2021, 03:00:39 PM »
I know a few people who would sell just for the money
and some would take a lot less than 90k  :chuckle:

We had one fellow on here locked up on New years
who would have sold parts for 5k  :o
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2021, 11:52:09 PM »
"Some economists have called for legalizing the buying and selling of organs.


In America, you have to stand in line and wait your turn to get an organ. Legalizing buying and selling would benefit the rich and kill the poor. Organs will be sold to the highest bidders. If you have a car accident and is likely to survive, your doctor may see you're worth $200,000 based on what customers are willing to pay. You may just end up dying. This kind of stuff happens in third world countries. I know people from those countries. They tell me if you show up with $20,000 and tell the right people you need an organ, they will quickly get an organ for you from a person that did not volunteer their life.
"Billy, go read. You don't need to be an 'expert' to read. Billy, again read stuff. Even if this disease ends up being serious, in a few months it will be gone. That's how these things work." quote by forum epidemic and virology expert Andrewfi Jan 28, 2020 on the coronavirus

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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2021, 12:36:08 AM »
All interesting thoughts!

We can count ourselves lucky (at least for now) that none of us need a transplant... for those who are dying it must be hell waiting to see if you'll get an organ or not.

Here in the US you have an option to indicate organ donor status on your driver's license (I suppose so that if your life ends in a car accident they know if they can harvest in short enough order as to keep your useable organs viable). Is this the case with DLs in other counties like England and Russia?
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2021, 02:38:47 AM »
In the UK there's a system of assumed consent. Your organs and tissue can be harvested unless you register that you don't want this to happen.

Only about 1% of corpses are used for donations as in most cases the person dies outside of an environment where harvesting can take place.

Apparently, in the UK, somebody dies every day due to a shortage of body parts.

Billy, you probably didn't notice it but the organ donation system in your adopted homeland is not the model of equity that you imagine. Many people are excluded for not having insurance or being unable to fund copays or excess payments. In practice transplant surgery is for the relatively well-off. In the civilised world access is much more equitable and is based upon clinical need and optimal outcome.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2021, 03:12:59 AM »
I think all Provinces in Canada now are assumed consent, instead of having to sign up,
you have to sign out. I can't imagine legalizing the sale of body parts would go well.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2021, 09:04:11 AM »
Billy, you probably didn't notice it but the organ donation system in your adopted homeland is not the model of equity that you imagine. Many people are excluded for not having insurance or being unable to fund copays or excess payments. In practice transplant surgery is for the relatively well-off. In the civilised world access is much more equitable and is based upon clinical need and optimal outcome.


I have no problem with hospitals and medical personnel rejecting people who can't pay them. That's fair. Making people and hospitals work for free isn't fair. Old, veterans and poor people are fully covered on government health insurance so they'll be taken care of.
"Billy, go read. You don't need to be an 'expert' to read. Billy, again read stuff. Even if this disease ends up being serious, in a few months it will be gone. That's how these things work." quote by forum epidemic and virology expert Andrewfi Jan 28, 2020 on the coronavirus

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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2021, 10:09:54 AM »
You really don't understand the world or the language you pretend to use.

You made a clear statement as fact. It was factually incorrect.
Now you're telling us that you didn't mean what you told us.

Next, you don't understand that even in the civilised world medical care is paid for. The only real difference is that people do not die because they don't have money to pay for that care.

Billy, Billy, Billy.  :'(
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2021, 09:41:57 AM »
Next, you don't understand that even in the civilised world medical care is paid for. The only real difference is that people do not die because they don't have money to pay for that care.


Yeah people do die in your civilized world because government health care is crappy and slow. America built hospitals for Canadians and people from other countries to come to since they don't want to wait for surgery.


Looky here. The American lawmakers introduce legislation to punish those harvesting organs. We'll investigate and punish them as well as we investigated and punished those involved in election fraud.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/us-lawmakers-introduce-legislation-to-combat-chinas-forced-organ-harvesting_3727466.html

"Billy, go read. You don't need to be an 'expert' to read. Billy, again read stuff. Even if this disease ends up being serious, in a few months it will be gone. That's how these things work." quote by forum epidemic and virology expert Andrewfi Jan 28, 2020 on the coronavirus

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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2021, 06:17:51 AM »
Yeah people do die in your civilized world because government health care is crappy and slow.

Not true.

Our NHS is superb considering its free at the point of delivery.

It certainly isn't crappy.

It can be very fast, it can be quite slow. It depends where you live and what treatment you need against demand.

The fact that we are leading the world with Covid vaccinations demonstrates its far from crappy.  :prophead:
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2021, 06:30:23 AM »
Billy, you clearly live in a fantasy world.
It's OK to have an opinion, but facts matter. Idiots ignore facts.

You made factually incorrect statements and expected to be believed. Sadly, when you claim fantasy as fact you accrue ridicule.

It does not need to be this way. But you were too lazy to even follow the simple learning exercise I gave you.

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. People who are not smart can achieve great things by dint of hard work and perseverence.

Smart people can often achieve great things with less effort. But life is not fair.

Billy, you cannot afford to be as lazy as you clearly are.

There is plenty  of objective data and analysis that counters your uninformed opinion. Try doing some learning. It'll do you good.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2021, 08:47:56 AM »
Yeah people do die in your civilized world because government health care is crappy and slow.

Not true.

Our NHS is superb considering its free at the point of delivery.

It certainly isn't crappy.

It can be very fast, it can be quite slow. It depends where you live and what treatment you need against demand.

The fact that we are leading the world with Covid vaccinations demonstrates its far from crappy.  :prophead:

That might be normal for you but America has a big medical tourism which would be bigger if it weren't for visa restrictions. The benefits are quality and speed. It's certainly not cheap and because it isn't cheap, many Americans go out of country for their plastic surgery and other needs.


Billy, you clearly live in a fantasy world.
It's OK to have an opinion, but facts matter. Idiots ignore facts.

You made factually incorrect statements and expected to be believed. Sadly, when you claim fantasy as fact you accrue ridicule.

It does not need to be this way. But you were too lazy to even follow the simple learning exercise I gave you.

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. People who are not smart can achieve great things by dint of hard work and perseverence.

Smart people can often achieve great things with less effort. But life is not fair.

Billy, you cannot afford to be as lazy as you clearly are.

There is plenty  of objective data and analysis that counters your uninformed opinion. Try doing some learning. It'll do you good.

Andrew, you're like this with everybody who you feel threaten by which is just about everybody. Insecurity issues? It must be hard to live with you. Serious question. When was the last time somebody voluntarily wanted to live with you?
"Billy, go read. You don't need to be an 'expert' to read. Billy, again read stuff. Even if this disease ends up being serious, in a few months it will be gone. That's how these things work." quote by forum epidemic and virology expert Andrewfi Jan 28, 2020 on the coronavirus

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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2021, 01:34:53 PM »
Would you sell one of your kidneys for $90,000

As a practice I'm not against this. Personally though my kidneys are in constant use and would be missed.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2021, 03:29:30 PM »
I have on many occasion in the past said "I would give my left N#t for that"
So maybe selling parts is not as far fetched as one thinks  :ROFL:
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2021, 12:40:10 PM »
"Some economists have called for legalizing the buying and selling of organs.


In America, you have to stand in line and wait your turn to get an organ. Legalizing buying and selling would benefit the rich and kill the poor. Organs will be sold to the highest bidders. If you have a car accident and is likely to survive, your doctor may see you're worth $200,000 based on what customers are willing to pay. You may just end up dying. This kind of stuff happens in third world countries. I know people from those countries. They tell me if you show up with $20,000 and tell the right people you need an organ, they will quickly get an organ for you from a person that did not volunteer their life.

The liberals and their helmet laws are what drove organ prices up.



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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2021, 05:56:46 AM »
I have on many occasion in the past said "I would give my left N#t for that"
So maybe selling parts is not as far fetched as one thinks  :ROFL:

But how much would you want.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2021, 11:51:11 AM »
I have on many occasion in the past said "I would give my left N#t for that"
So maybe selling parts is not as far fetched as one thinks  :ROFL:

But how much would you want.
Well last time I made that comment it was
a $450,000 usd car :)
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2021, 01:49:53 PM »
I have on many occasion in the past said "I would give my left N#t for that"
So maybe selling parts is not as far fetched as one thinks  :ROFL:

But how much would you want.
Well last time I made that comment it was
a $450,000 usd car :)

Let me guess: AC Shelby Cobra circa 1967.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2021, 02:24:03 PM »
I have on many occasion in the past said "I would give my left N#t for that"
So maybe selling parts is not as far fetched as one thinks  :ROFL:

But how much would you want.
Well last time I made that comment it was
a $450,000 usd car :)

Let me guess: AC Shelby Cobra circa 1967.

No and you can buy for less, unless orignal then you need to double that.
New Ford GT at the time. :) but close I have a car list,
buidling one now, but not near that price range.
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2021, 03:38:50 PM »
I have on many occasion in the past said "I would give my left N#t for that"
So maybe selling parts is not as far fetched as one thinks  :ROFL:

But how much would you want.
Well last time I made that comment it was
a $450,000 usd car :)

Let me guess: AC Shelby Cobra circa 1967.

No and you can buy for less, unless orignal then you need to double that.
New Ford GT at the time. :) but close I have a car list,
buidling one now, but not near that price range.

The original AC Shelby Cobra's are now pricey.

The GT is an unique vehicle, in that as an used vehicle it never depreciated from the price out of the showroom.

For what it is worth I understand you can buy a new build Mustang Fast Back with a 1967~1966? VIN #  +/- 85,000.- US$

Are you building a GT or AC?
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2021, 12:56:36 AM »

Chinese Organ transplant donor falls off a building. Ruled suicide.

In December 2000, Zang established a liver transplant program in Shandong Provincial Qianfoshan Hospital and became the first to perform such a surgery in the province.

In September 2001, he contributed to the creation of the Shandong Provincial Organ Transplant Center.

From 2004 to 2008, he participated in 1,600 cases of liver removals from donors in Tianjin First Central Hospital.

In January 2005, Zang joined the Liver Transplantation Institute of the Beijing Armed Police General Hospital. In April, he was appointed deputy director of the institute. There, he did more than 1,000 liver transplants.

From 2014 onward, Zang moved to the Affiliated Hospital of Qingdao University and led the transplant activities there until he committed suicide on Feb. 26 for unknown reasons.

Wang Zhiyuan, chair of the World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG), noted in an interview with The Epoch Times on Mar. 11 that China is among the countries with the lowest average voluntary organ donation rates in the world, citing a figure of “only 0.6 per 1 million deaths (about 840 donors per year) in China in The Lancet,” an international medical publication.

He explained that Chinese people are reluctant to donate organs after death due to their age-old respect for the deceased—any removal of their organs would culturally be deemed disrespectful to them or an act that promotes misfortune to those who did such a thing.

Based on more than ten years of investigations carried out by the WOIPFG any other researchers, mounting evidence shows a massive living organ donor pool has existed since the CCP’s brutal persecution of Falun Gong practitioners began in 1999.

In 2019, an independent people’s tribunal concluded, after a yearlong investigation, that the CCP has been forcibly harvesting organs from prisoners of conscience for years on “a substantial scale,” with detained Falun Gong practitioners being the main organ source. The grisly practice continues to this day, the tribunal said.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinese-medical-experts-suicide-draws-attention-to-questionable-organ-transplant-model_3729518.html?utm_source=pushengage
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Re: Would you sell an organ?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2021, 02:41:31 AM »
I have on many occasion in the past said "I would give my left N#t for that"
So maybe selling parts is not as far fetched as one thinks  :ROFL:

But how much would you want.
Well last time I made that comment it was
a $450,000 usd car :)

Let me guess: AC Shelby Cobra circa 1967.

No and you can buy for less, unless orignal then you need to double that.
New Ford GT at the time. :) but close I have a car list,
buidling one now, but not near that price range.

The original AC Shelby Cobra's are now pricey.

The GT is an unique vehicle, in that as an used vehicle it never depreciated from the price out of the showroom.

For what it is worth I understand you can buy a new build Mustang Fast Back with a 1967~1966? VIN #  +/- 85,000.- US$

Are you building a GT or AC?

1990 Lx, doing a coyote swap, this likely should be somewhere else.
There is nothing permanent except change.


 

 

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