Sidney Powell Releases 270 Pages Document on Massive 2020 Election Fraud

[mhr7]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

[andrewfi]

mhr7, there is nothing you can say that can help people like Billy. He and many other poor men and women have a belief so profound, yet unfounded in reality that they cannot accept the world around them as real.

When Pence gets on his hind legs and announces that Biden will be the next president of the United States there will be some new story, some new way to reject the reality of the world.

I think that people who act in this way in respect of one part of their perception of the world tend to do so in many areas of their lives - we certainly see it happen on this forum.

If somebody says to me that US elections are flawed, then I can agree with them. I doubt that many rational, honest, people would gainsay that contention. Most of us understand that the process will happen. Billy and others like him will come up with some new story - perhaps a guerrilla war led my a renegade Trump.

Like it or not Biden won the election. Whether it was honest, fair corrupt or not is not the issue. That's a finished battle.

Next time round the Democrats will be arguing the same points as many Trump supporters. Nothing will change becasue careers and fortunes are at stake. What suits Democrats now will suit Republicans in 4 or 8 years time. It  will suit stakeholders of all parties in lower level elections across the Home of the brae and so nobody will take a stance against it. The will to make real changes does not exist.

[BillyB]

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

You have a new friend named Andrew. He has reading comprehension issues. There's nothing in your evidence showing procedures in the event of dueling electors. We've had elector issues three times in our history and I showed you some where somebody goes home happy and somebody goes home sad. 1960 was the last time when VP Nixon was given multiple sets of electors from Hawaii to choose from. He could only count one set. What sets do you think VP Pence will count? Maybe he'll do a Pelosi and rip up the envelopes in front of Congress and won't count any sets.

[mhr7]

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

You have a new friend named Andrew. He has reading comprehension issues. There's nothing in your evidence showing procedures in the event of dueling electors. We've had elector issues three times in our history and I showed you some where somebody goes home happy and somebody goes home sad. 1960 was the last time when VP Nixon was given multiple sets of electors from Hawaii to choose from. He could only count one set. What sets do you think VP Pence will count? Maybe he'll do a Pelosi and rip up the envelopes in front of Congress and won't count any sets.

Billy, on Jan. 6th Pence won't have a choice because each envelope will contain the votes of only ONE slate of electors - the ones certified by each state. The Republican slates of electors have not been certified, will not have an envelope and will have no say in the outcome. There are no dueling sets of electors. I don't know how to make it any clearer. The states choose the electors, the VP opens envelopes.

[BillyB]

You're not getting it and I'll make one last effort to show you using History as a lesson. Nixon got to choose between the three sets of electors Hawaii sent. He ended up choosing the electors for Kennedy but he didn't have to. If Nixon knew he had a chance in winning, he may have acted differently. Nixon also knew the Democrats committed fraud in the election. Pence isn't going to be a Nixon.

As the Senate’s presiding officer, Vice President Nixon opened the certificates from each state and handed them to the four Members of Congress serving as tellers who read, counted, and announced the results in each state. Following recent tradition, the states were taken in alphabetical order starting with Alabama. The process was unremarkable until it got to Hawaii. When they got to Hawaii, Vice President Nixon announced:

The Chair has received three certificates from persons claiming to be the duly appointed electors from the State of Hawaii. The Chair will hand these certificates one at a time to the tellers who will read the certificates and the attached papers in full. After the first certificate has been read the Chair will then hand the second certificate to the tellers, and then the third.

The first certificate was the package transmitted by the Republican electors. The second certificate was the package transmitted by the Democratic electors. The third certificate came from the Archivist of the United States to whom both packages had been sent, as required by law. The Archivist certified the authenticity of the very recently arrived Democratic package.

In perhaps the most gracious act of his long tenure in public office, Nixon said:

In order not to delay the further count of the electoral vote here, the Chair, without the intent of establishing a precedent, suggests that the electors named in the certificate of the Governor of Hawaii dated January 4, 1961, be considered as the lawful electors from the State of Hawaii.

If there be no objection in this joint convention, the Chair will instruct the tellers-and he now does-to count the votes of those electors named in the certificate of the Governor of Hawaii dated January 4, 1961-those votes having been cast for John F. Kennedy, of Massachusetts, for President and LYNDON B. JOHNSON, of Texas, for Vice President.


https://takecareblog.com/blog/how-to-decide-a-very-close-election-for-presidential-electors-part-2

[mhr7]

The only reason Hawaii had two sets of electors is because of a recount and litigation. So Hawaii had no clear winner by the December 14th deadline for certified votes to be counted. The governor certified the two sets because the winner was unknown. That is not the case this year, all 50 states have a clear winner and the votes have been certified. That's why we know Biden received 306 votes and Trump 232. That will be the oucome on Jan. 6th. All you have to do is google and you'll see the truth.

[BillyB]

You're still not getting it. The President of the Senate which is the VP has the sole power to choose which set of electors that are in front of him.

Good news! Liberal news MarketWatch says Trump is the most admired man in America. Trump dethroned Obama.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/donald-trump-breaks-barack-obamas-record-streak-as-americas-most-admired-man-11609254922?siteid=yhoof2

But Obama has the last laugh as he gets to sleep with the most admired woman in America! Melania Trump took third place.

https://world365.info/michelle-obama-named-most-admired-woman-in-gallup-poll/

[mhr7]

He will have 1 set from each state. No choice to be made. That's all I'm going to say, you just don't understand.

[d672]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

 Thanks for posting the link. But it is very vague, and doesn't say anything about what Pence can or cannot do. There is actual precedence showing that the President of the senate can do more that just open and read the electors.  Thomas Jefferson actually became President by claiming 4 electors from Georgia for himself when the ballots were deemed constitutionally defective.
  https://macris.substack.com/p/who-counts-the-votes-of-the-presidential

Thomas Jefferson was remarkably aggressive as President of the Senate. Georgia’s certificate - granting four electoral votes to Jefferson - was constitutionally defective on its face, a deficiency that was announced on the floor of Congress and reported by leading newspapers of the day. To resolve all doubts, we have located Georgia’s certificate in the National Archives, and it does indeed reveal striking constitutional irregularities…

Nevertheless, Jefferson failed to pause before counting George’s four electoral votes into the Republican column, declaring the final vote as if nothing were amiss. Had Georgia’s ballot been excluded, the vote count…would have admitted all five candidates into a runoff in the House… Without the decisive use of his power as President of the Senate, Jefferson might never have become President of the United States. (emphasis added)

Read that again: Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, the man whose face adorns Mt Rushmore, among the most revered founding fathers of our country, only became President because he used his unilateral power as President of the Senate to open and count the presidential ballots in his own favor.


 There is another case written there about when electors from Wisconsin weren't submitted because of a snowstorm, but the President of the senate counted them to his discretion anyways. Take a look if you are interested in reading about it. The bottom line is that Pence's position is not just ceremonial, and all he can do is open ballots as you claim. He has a lot more power than that, power that cannot be overridden by congress as seen by these two cases.

[BillyB]

More good info on the topic

https://twitter.com/briancremy/status/1343982894440718346


I don't know why mhr7 thinks Biden will be President. Biden called Kamala Harris the President elect.....again. He can't even read the words off a teleprompter correctly.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/watch-joe-biden-slips-refers-kamala-harris-president-elect-saying-quiet-part-loud/


Apparently somebody from Congress ordered this to be updated and submitted right before the election. I guess they knew they'd be needing it.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40504.pdf

[d672]

mhr7, there is nothing you can say that can help people like Billy. He and many other poor men and women have a belief so profound, yet unfounded in reality that they cannot accept the world around them as real.

When Pence gets on his hind legs and announces that Biden will be the next president of the United States there will be some new story, some new way to reject the reality of the world.

I think that people who act in this way in respect of one part of their perception of the world tend to do so in many areas of their lives - we certainly see it happen on this forum.

If somebody says to me that US elections are flawed, then I can agree with them. I doubt that many rational, honest, people would gainsay that contention. Most of us understand that the process will happen. Billy and others like him will come up with some new story - perhaps a guerrilla war led my a renegade Trump.

Like it or not Biden won the election. Whether it was honest, fair corrupt or not is not the issue. That's a finished battle.

Next time round the Democrats will be arguing the same points as many Trump supporters. Nothing will change becasue careers and fortunes are at stake. What suits Democrats now will suit Republicans in 4 or 8 years time. It  will suit stakeholders of all parties in lower level elections across the Home of the brae and so nobody will take a stance against it. The will to make real changes does not exist.

 Lol! Listen to yourself Andrew. For years I have seen you cutting down people for not thinking for themselves, just believing the script given to them. Now when they do you cut them down for doing it! 

 You obviously didn't do much research before you gave your 2 cents worth. There are literally millions of people pissed off in the US today about what is happening, thanks to politicians who are straight out lying, and judges who refuse to even look at th fraud cases. When you see actual video footage of windows being blocked off you you can't see into counting rooms in Michigan, and Poll watchers being denied entry to watch the ballot counting, and ballots being counted late at night after everyone was told to go home in Georgia that is not some "flaws" in the voting system as you try to claim. And people are fed up with the politicians and the msm trying to whitewash it.

 And now you say everyone should stfu and accept what is going on? Yeah it's a corrupt system but there is nothing you can do about it so just forget it and go on with life? To be honest I don't think that is possible at this point. The fraud has been so transparent that if there isn't something done about it there is going to be riots that made what antifa and blm did this summer look like picnics. You're gonna have millions of people with guns scared that they are losing their rights and freedoms. And all those crooked politicians will have no one to blame but themselves.

[d672]

 Here's a video that an ammo manufacturer put out to explain to people that they are not holding back on making and selling ammo, they just plain can't keep up with demand.
 7 million new gun owners in the US since March, there is literally a shortage of ammo in the country. Between covid and now an election ripe with fraud who would you say the majority of those new guns owners are? Dem supporters who believe that Biden won? Or Rep supporters that think Trump got shafted, and are worried that they are losing their rights and freedoms? I'll bet on the Trump voters...

 This is a big reason why I think the politicians are playing a very dangerous game

[mhr7]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

 Thanks for posting the link. But it is very vague, and doesn't say anything about what Pence can or cannot do. There is actual precedence showing that the President of the senate can do more that just open and read the electors.  Thomas Jefferson actually became President by claiming 4 electors from Georgia for himself when the ballots were deemed constitutionally defective.
  https://macris.substack.com/p/who-counts-the-votes-of-the-presidential

Thomas Jefferson was remarkably aggressive as President of the Senate. Georgia’s certificate - granting four electoral votes to Jefferson - was constitutionally defective on its face, a deficiency that was announced on the floor of Congress and reported by leading newspapers of the day. To resolve all doubts, we have located Georgia’s certificate in the National Archives, and it does indeed reveal striking constitutional irregularities…

Nevertheless, Jefferson failed to pause before counting George’s four electoral votes into the Republican column, declaring the final vote as if nothing were amiss. Had Georgia’s ballot been excluded, the vote count…would have admitted all five candidates into a runoff in the House… Without the decisive use of his power as President of the Senate, Jefferson might never have become President of the United States. (emphasis added)

Read that again: Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, the man whose face adorns Mt Rushmore, among the most revered founding fathers of our country, only became President because he used his unilateral power as President of the Senate to open and count the presidential ballots in his own favor.


 There is another case written there about when electors from Wisconsin weren't submitted because of a snowstorm, but the President of the senate counted them to his discretion anyways. Take a look if you are interested in reading about it. The bottom line is that Pence's position is not just ceremonial, and all he can do is open ballots as you claim. He has a lot more power than that, power that cannot be overridden by congress as seen by these two cases.

It is just ceremonial, the whole event on Jan. 6th is ceremonial. December 14th was the day the electoral votes were set in stone. If the VP could change the outcome of the election then the US would not be a representative democracy. If the VP could do anything to change the outcome then George H. W. Bush would have served two terms instead of one because VP Dan Quail could have made that happen by not counting the votes of states Bill Clinton won. In 2001, VP Al Gore could have given himself the victory by not counting the vote of Florida. And in 2017, VP Joe Biden could have set aside the votes of the states Trump won thereby giving Hilary Clinton the victory But these things didn't happen because the VP has no power whatsoever to change any votes. If he did, the US would be an Autocracy and there would be no point in voting.

The real story of Thomas Jefferson -

1800 Presidential Election Results

"Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson defeated Federalist John Adams by a margin of seventy-three to sixty-five electoral votes in the presidential election of 1800. When presidential electors cast their votes, however, they failed to distinguish between the office of president and vice president on their ballots. Jefferson and his running mate Aaron Burr each received seventy-three votes. With the votes tied, the election was thrown to the House of Representatives as required by Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. There, each state voted as a unit to decide the election.

Still dominated by Federalists, the sitting Congress loathed to vote for Jefferson—their partisan nemesis. For six days starting on February 11, 1801, Jefferson and Burr essentially ran against each other in the House. Votes were tallied over thirty times, yet neither man captured the necessary majority of nine states. Eventually, Federalist James A. Bayard of Delaware, under intense pressure and fearing for the future of the Union, made known his intention to break the impasse. As Delaware’s lone representative, Bayard controlled the state’s entire vote. On the thirty-sixth ballot, Bayard and other Federalists from South Carolina, Maryland, and Vermont cast blank ballots, breaking the deadlock and giving Jefferson the support of ten states, enough to win the presidency.

https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/elections/election1800.html

And you can watch the process here -

[mhr7]

mhr7, there is nothing you can say that can help people like Billy. He and many other poor men and women have a belief so profound, yet unfounded in reality that they cannot accept the world around them as real.

When Pence gets on his hind legs and announces that Biden will be the next president of the United States there will be some new story, some new way to reject the reality of the world.

I think that people who act in this way in respect of one part of their perception of the world tend to do so in many areas of their lives - we certainly see it happen on this forum.

If somebody says to me that US elections are flawed, then I can agree with them. I doubt that many rational, honest, people would gainsay that contention. Most of us understand that the process will happen. Billy and others like him will come up with some new story - perhaps a guerrilla war led my a renegade Trump.

Like it or not Biden won the election. Whether it was honest, fair corrupt or not is not the issue. That's a finished battle.

Next time round the Democrats will be arguing the same points as many Trump supporters. Nothing will change becasue careers and fortunes are at stake. What suits Democrats now will suit Republicans in 4 or 8 years time. It  will suit stakeholders of all parties in lower level elections across the Home of the brae and so nobody will take a stance against it. The will to make real changes does not exist.

 Lol! Listen to yourself Andrew. For years I have seen you cutting down people for not thinking for themselves, just believing the script given to them. Now when they do you cut them down for doing it! 

 You obviously didn't do much research before you gave your 2 cents worth. There are literally millions of people pissed off in the US today about what is happening, thanks to politicians who are straight out lying, and judges who refuse to even look at th fraud cases. When you see actual video footage of windows being blocked off you you can't see into counting rooms in Michigan, and Poll watchers being denied entry to watch the ballot counting, and ballots being counted late at night after everyone was told to go home in Georgia that is not some "flaws" in the voting system as you try to claim. And people are fed up with the politicians and the msm trying to whitewash it.

 And now you say everyone should stfu and accept what is going on? Yeah it's a corrupt system but there is nothing you can do about it so just forget it and go on with life? To be honest I don't think that is possible at this point. The fraud has been so transparent that if there isn't something done about it there is going to be riots that made what antifa and blm did this summer look like picnics. You're gonna have millions of people with guns scared that they are losing their rights and freedoms. And all those crooked politicians will have no one to blame but themselves.

Several of the swing states have Republican legislatures and governors. Why would they accept the vote as legit and certify the Biden electors if they thought their elections were fraudulent? The Republican governor of Georgia was a strong supporter of Trump yet even he chose to certify the Biden electors. Why would he do that if there was provable fraud? Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong and that the events you listed as being fraudulent are, in fact, not fraudulent but have perfectly legit explanations?

[d672]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

 Thanks for posting the link. But it is very vague, and doesn't say anything about what Pence can or cannot do. There is actual precedence showing that the President of the senate can do more that just open and read the electors.  Thomas Jefferson actually became President by claiming 4 electors from Georgia for himself when the ballots were deemed constitutionally defective.
  https://macris.substack.com/p/who-counts-the-votes-of-the-presidential

Thomas Jefferson was remarkably aggressive as President of the Senate. Georgia’s certificate - granting four electoral votes to Jefferson - was constitutionally defective on its face, a deficiency that was announced on the floor of Congress and reported by leading newspapers of the day. To resolve all doubts, we have located Georgia’s certificate in the National Archives, and it does indeed reveal striking constitutional irregularities…

Nevertheless, Jefferson failed to pause before counting George’s four electoral votes into the Republican column, declaring the final vote as if nothing were amiss. Had Georgia’s ballot been excluded, the vote count…would have admitted all five candidates into a runoff in the House… Without the decisive use of his power as President of the Senate, Jefferson might never have become President of the United States. (emphasis added)

Read that again: Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, the man whose face adorns Mt Rushmore, among the most revered founding fathers of our country, only became President because he used his unilateral power as President of the Senate to open and count the presidential ballots in his own favor.


 There is another case written there about when electors from Wisconsin weren't submitted because of a snowstorm, but the President of the senate counted them to his discretion anyways. Take a look if you are interested in reading about it. The bottom line is that Pence's position is not just ceremonial, and all he can do is open ballots as you claim. He has a lot more power than that, power that cannot be overridden by congress as seen by these two cases.

It is just ceremonial, the whole event on Jan. 6th is ceremonial. December 14th was the day the electoral votes were set in stone. If the VP could change the outcome of the election then the US would not be a representative democracy. If the VP could do anything to change the outcome then George H. W. Bush would have served two terms instead of one because VP Dan Quail could have made that happen by not counting the votes of states Bill Clinton won. In 2001, VP Al Gore could have given himself the victory by not counting the vote of Florida. And in 2017, VP Joe Biden could have set aside the votes of the states Trump won thereby giving Hilary Clinton the victory But these things didn't happen because the VP has no power whatsoever to change any votes. If he did, the US would be an Autocracy and there would be no point in voting.

The real story of Thomas Jefferson -

1800 Presidential Election Results

"Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson defeated Federalist John Adams by a margin of seventy-three to sixty-five electoral votes in the presidential election of 1800. When presidential electors cast their votes, however, they failed to distinguish between the office of president and vice president on their ballots. Jefferson and his running mate Aaron Burr each received seventy-three votes. With the votes tied, the election was thrown to the House of Representatives as required by Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. There, each state voted as a unit to decide the election.

Still dominated by Federalists, the sitting Congress loathed to vote for Jefferson—their partisan nemesis. For six days starting on February 11, 1801, Jefferson and Burr essentially ran against each other in the House. Votes were tallied over thirty times, yet neither man captured the necessary majority of nine states. Eventually, Federalist James A. Bayard of Delaware, under intense pressure and fearing for the future of the Union, made known his intention to break the impasse. As Delaware’s lone representative, Bayard controlled the state’s entire vote. On the thirty-sixth ballot, Bayard and other Federalists from South Carolina, Maryland, and Vermont cast blank ballots, breaking the deadlock and giving Jefferson the support of ten states, enough to win the presidency.

https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/elections/election1800.html

And you can watch the process here -

 You are skipping ahead, Jefferson wouldn't have even been in that te if he hadn't taken the Georgia electors. My whole point is that he was able to take them as the President of the senate, even though they were not for him. so it is not just a ceremonial position

[LoyalMan]

After Powell has released these documents, Deep State criminals begin to destroy physical evidences:

• Attacking Nashville AT&T building which must have been a backbone of communication
• A ballot printing factory on Fire.

Deep State criminal members and mhr7 are in extreme panic!!!  HAHAHHAAH!!!

Choose a Good Room Number in Guamtanamo.  Let me send your request to Powell. 

[mhr7]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

 Thanks for posting the link. But it is very vague, and doesn't say anything about what Pence can or cannot do. There is actual precedence showing that the President of the senate can do more that just open and read the electors.  Thomas Jefferson actually became President by claiming 4 electors from Georgia for himself when the ballots were deemed constitutionally defective.
  https://macris.substack.com/p/who-counts-the-votes-of-the-presidential

Thomas Jefferson was remarkably aggressive as President of the Senate. Georgia’s certificate - granting four electoral votes to Jefferson - was constitutionally defective on its face, a deficiency that was announced on the floor of Congress and reported by leading newspapers of the day. To resolve all doubts, we have located Georgia’s certificate in the National Archives, and it does indeed reveal striking constitutional irregularities…

Nevertheless, Jefferson failed to pause before counting George’s four electoral votes into the Republican column, declaring the final vote as if nothing were amiss. Had Georgia’s ballot been excluded, the vote count…would have admitted all five candidates into a runoff in the House… Without the decisive use of his power as President of the Senate, Jefferson might never have become President of the United States. (emphasis added)

Read that again: Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, the man whose face adorns Mt Rushmore, among the most revered founding fathers of our country, only became President because he used his unilateral power as President of the Senate to open and count the presidential ballots in his own favor.


 There is another case written there about when electors from Wisconsin weren't submitted because of a snowstorm, but the President of the senate counted them to his discretion anyways. Take a look if you are interested in reading about it. The bottom line is that Pence's position is not just ceremonial, and all he can do is open ballots as you claim. He has a lot more power than that, power that cannot be overridden by congress as seen by these two cases.

It is just ceremonial, the whole event on Jan. 6th is ceremonial. December 14th was the day the electoral votes were set in stone. If the VP could change the outcome of the election then the US would not be a representative democracy. If the VP could do anything to change the outcome then George H. W. Bush would have served two terms instead of one because VP Dan Quail could have made that happen by not counting the votes of states Bill Clinton won. In 2001, VP Al Gore could have given himself the victory by not counting the vote of Florida. And in 2017, VP Joe Biden could have set aside the votes of the states Trump won thereby giving Hilary Clinton the victory But these things didn't happen because the VP has no power whatsoever to change any votes. If he did, the US would be an Autocracy and there would be no point in voting.

The real story of Thomas Jefferson -

1800 Presidential Election Results

"Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson defeated Federalist John Adams by a margin of seventy-three to sixty-five electoral votes in the presidential election of 1800. When presidential electors cast their votes, however, they failed to distinguish between the office of president and vice president on their ballots. Jefferson and his running mate Aaron Burr each received seventy-three votes. With the votes tied, the election was thrown to the House of Representatives as required by Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. There, each state voted as a unit to decide the election.

Still dominated by Federalists, the sitting Congress loathed to vote for Jefferson—their partisan nemesis. For six days starting on February 11, 1801, Jefferson and Burr essentially ran against each other in the House. Votes were tallied over thirty times, yet neither man captured the necessary majority of nine states. Eventually, Federalist James A. Bayard of Delaware, under intense pressure and fearing for the future of the Union, made known his intention to break the impasse. As Delaware’s lone representative, Bayard controlled the state’s entire vote. On the thirty-sixth ballot, Bayard and other Federalists from South Carolina, Maryland, and Vermont cast blank ballots, breaking the deadlock and giving Jefferson the support of ten states, enough to win the presidency.

https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/elections/election1800.html

And you can watch the process here -

 You are skipping ahead, Jefferson wouldn't have even been in that te if he hadn't taken the Georgia electors. My whole point is that he was able to take them as the President of the senate, even though they were not for him. so it is not just a ceremonial position

Georgia only had 4 electoral votes, Jefferson won by 8. The Georgian votes were for Jefferson so he didn't change their vote. Laws have changed since 1800. Today it is the tellers who examine the votes to make sure they are valid.

[d672]

mhr7, there is nothing you can say that can help people like Billy. He and many other poor men and women have a belief so profound, yet unfounded in reality that they cannot accept the world around them as real.

When Pence gets on his hind legs and announces that Biden will be the next president of the United States there will be some new story, some new way to reject the reality of the world.

I think that people who act in this way in respect of one part of their perception of the world tend to do so in many areas of their lives - we certainly see it happen on this forum.

If somebody says to me that US elections are flawed, then I can agree with them. I doubt that many rational, honest, people would gainsay that contention. Most of us understand that the process will happen. Billy and others like him will come up with some new story - perhaps a guerrilla war led my a renegade Trump.

Like it or not Biden won the election. Whether it was honest, fair corrupt or not is not the issue. That's a finished battle.

Next time round the Democrats will be arguing the same points as many Trump supporters. Nothing will change becasue careers and fortunes are at stake. What suits Democrats now will suit Republicans in 4 or 8 years time. It  will suit stakeholders of all parties in lower level elections across the Home of the brae and so nobody will take a stance against it. The will to make real changes does not exist.

 Lol! Listen to yourself Andrew. For years I have seen you cutting down people for not thinking for themselves, just believing the script given to them. Now when they do you cut them down for doing it! 

 You obviously didn't do much research before you gave your 2 cents worth. There are literally millions of people pissed off in the US today about what is happening, thanks to politicians who are straight out lying, and judges who refuse to even look at th fraud cases. When you see actual video footage of windows being blocked off you you can't see into counting rooms in Michigan, and Poll watchers being denied entry to watch the ballot counting, and ballots being counted late at night after everyone was told to go home in Georgia that is not some "flaws" in the voting system as you try to claim. And people are fed up with the politicians and the msm trying to whitewash it.

 And now you say everyone should stfu and accept what is going on? Yeah it's a corrupt system but there is nothing you can do about it so just forget it and go on with life? To be honest I don't think that is possible at this point. The fraud has been so transparent that if there isn't something done about it there is going to be riots that made what antifa and blm did this summer look like picnics. You're gonna have millions of people with guns scared that they are losing their rights and freedoms. And all those crooked politicians will have no one to blame but themselves.

Several of the swing states have Republican legislatures and governors. Why would they accept the vote as legit and certify the Biden electors if they thought their elections were fraudulent? The Republican governor of Georgia was a strong supporter of Trump yet even he chose to certify the Biden electors. Why would he do that if there was provable fraud? Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong and that the events you listed as being fraudulent are, in fact, not fraudulent but have perfectly legit explanations?

 Just because they are Republican does not mean they want Trump in. Have you even seen the video where they pulled out those votes out from under the covered table after hours and started counting them when no press and observers were around? The same video that showed Ruby Freeman running the same ballots through a counting machine multiple times? Both those actions are illegal whether they were legal ballots or not. How can you say after seeing that happen that there was no fraud? It's right on tape! You can see it with your own eyes!

 It was obvious that Kent was against Trump when he did nothing about that. He was just another Republican who rode his coattails the last 4 years but never truly supported him. Probably because it was harder to pad his bank account while he was president. Gotta get things back on track again!

 And in Arizona they are having a march tomorrow  to demand that the officials who refused the senate subpoena to release the voting machines for inspection resign. They are gop too. Why would they not let the machines be inspected if they had nothing to hide? But you won't see that on the msm because they are too busy kissing Biden's ass, so here it is on war room.

 That's an Arizona state senator Bannon is talking to. Someone who the msm would never interview and who's twitter account is suspended. There's your land of the free for you. And Steve Bannon's war room just became the most watched political podcast in the US this last week, he has all the big tech censorship to thank for that.

[mhr7]

After Powell has released these documents, Deep State criminals begin to destroy physical evidences:

• Attacking Nashville AT&T building which must have been a backbone of communication
• A ballot printing factory on Fire.

Deep State criminal members and mhr7 are in extreme panic!!!  HAHAHHAAH!!!

Choose a Good Room Number in Guamtanamo.  Let me send your request to Powell. 

The explosion in Nashville was a suicide.

[d672]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

 Thanks for posting the link. But it is very vague, and doesn't say anything about what Pence can or cannot do. There is actual precedence showing that the President of the senate can do more that just open and read the electors.  Thomas Jefferson actually became President by claiming 4 electors from Georgia for himself when the ballots were deemed constitutionally defective.
  https://macris.substack.com/p/who-counts-the-votes-of-the-presidential

Thomas Jefferson was remarkably aggressive as President of the Senate. Georgia’s certificate - granting four electoral votes to Jefferson - was constitutionally defective on its face, a deficiency that was announced on the floor of Congress and reported by leading newspapers of the day. To resolve all doubts, we have located Georgia’s certificate in the National Archives, and it does indeed reveal striking constitutional irregularities…

Nevertheless, Jefferson failed to pause before counting George’s four electoral votes into the Republican column, declaring the final vote as if nothing were amiss. Had Georgia’s ballot been excluded, the vote count…would have admitted all five candidates into a runoff in the House… Without the decisive use of his power as President of the Senate, Jefferson might never have become President of the United States. (emphasis added)

Read that again: Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, the man whose face adorns Mt Rushmore, among the most revered founding fathers of our country, only became President because he used his unilateral power as President of the Senate to open and count the presidential ballots in his own favor.


 There is another case written there about when electors from Wisconsin weren't submitted because of a snowstorm, but the President of the senate counted them to his discretion anyways. Take a look if you are interested in reading about it. The bottom line is that Pence's position is not just ceremonial, and all he can do is open ballots as you claim. He has a lot more power than that, power that cannot be overridden by congress as seen by these two cases.

It is just ceremonial, the whole event on Jan. 6th is ceremonial. December 14th was the day the electoral votes were set in stone. If the VP could change the outcome of the election then the US would not be a representative democracy. If the VP could do anything to change the outcome then George H. W. Bush would have served two terms instead of one because VP Dan Quail could have made that happen by not counting the votes of states Bill Clinton won. In 2001, VP Al Gore could have given himself the victory by not counting the vote of Florida. And in 2017, VP Joe Biden could have set aside the votes of the states Trump won thereby giving Hilary Clinton the victory But these things didn't happen because the VP has no power whatsoever to change any votes. If he did, the US would be an Autocracy and there would be no point in voting.

The real story of Thomas Jefferson -

1800 Presidential Election Results

"Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson defeated Federalist John Adams by a margin of seventy-three to sixty-five electoral votes in the presidential election of 1800. When presidential electors cast their votes, however, they failed to distinguish between the office of president and vice president on their ballots. Jefferson and his running mate Aaron Burr each received seventy-three votes. With the votes tied, the election was thrown to the House of Representatives as required by Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. There, each state voted as a unit to decide the election.

Still dominated by Federalists, the sitting Congress loathed to vote for Jefferson—their partisan nemesis. For six days starting on February 11, 1801, Jefferson and Burr essentially ran against each other in the House. Votes were tallied over thirty times, yet neither man captured the necessary majority of nine states. Eventually, Federalist James A. Bayard of Delaware, under intense pressure and fearing for the future of the Union, made known his intention to break the impasse. As Delaware’s lone representative, Bayard controlled the state’s entire vote. On the thirty-sixth ballot, Bayard and other Federalists from South Carolina, Maryland, and Vermont cast blank ballots, breaking the deadlock and giving Jefferson the support of ten states, enough to win the presidency.

https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/elections/election1800.html

And you can watch the process here -

 You are skipping ahead, Jefferson wouldn't have even been in that te if he hadn't taken the Georgia electors. My whole point is that he was able to take them as the President of the senate, even though they were not for him. so it is not just a ceremonial position

Georgia only had 4 electoral votes, Jefferson won by 8. The Georgian votes were for Jefferson so he didn't change their vote. Laws have changed since 1800. Today it is the tellers who examine the votes to make sure they are valid.

 No Georgia had 8, 4 for Jefferson, 4 for Burr. But they were not constitutionally valid because they were not signed by the electors. If what you are saying is true, that his position was only ceremonial then Jefferson should not have been able to count them, but he did, he had the authority to do it. And they had tellers back then too actually.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/03/how-jefferson-counted-himself-in/302888/

He says that Mr. Wells (a teller on the part of the Senate) informed him that the envelope was blank; that the return of the votes was not authenticated by the signatures of the electors, or any of them, either on the outside or the inside of the envelope, or in any other manner; that it merely stated in the inside that the votes of Georgia were, for Thomas Jefferson four; and for Aaron Burr four; without the signature of any person whatsoever. Mr. Wells added, that he was very undecided as to the proper course to be pursued by the tellers. It was, however, suggested by one of them that the paper should be handed to the presiding officer, without any statement from the tellers except that the return was informal; that he consented to this arrangement under the firm conviction that Mr. Jefferson would announce the nature of the informality from the chair; but, to his utmost surprise, he (Mr. Jefferson) rapidly declared that the votes of Georgia were four for Thomas Jefferson and four for Aaron Burr, without noticing their informality, and in a hurried manner put them aside, and then broke the seals and handed to the tellers the package from the next state

[mhr7]

mhr7, there is nothing you can say that can help people like Billy. He and many other poor men and women have a belief so profound, yet unfounded in reality that they cannot accept the world around them as real.

When Pence gets on his hind legs and announces that Biden will be the next president of the United States there will be some new story, some new way to reject the reality of the world.

I think that people who act in this way in respect of one part of their perception of the world tend to do so in many areas of their lives - we certainly see it happen on this forum.

If somebody says to me that US elections are flawed, then I can agree with them. I doubt that many rational, honest, people would gainsay that contention. Most of us understand that the process will happen. Billy and others like him will come up with some new story - perhaps a guerrilla war led my a renegade Trump.

Like it or not Biden won the election. Whether it was honest, fair corrupt or not is not the issue. That's a finished battle.

Next time round the Democrats will be arguing the same points as many Trump supporters. Nothing will change becasue careers and fortunes are at stake. What suits Democrats now will suit Republicans in 4 or 8 years time. It  will suit stakeholders of all parties in lower level elections across the Home of the brae and so nobody will take a stance against it. The will to make real changes does not exist.

 Lol! Listen to yourself Andrew. For years I have seen you cutting down people for not thinking for themselves, just believing the script given to them. Now when they do you cut them down for doing it! 

 You obviously didn't do much research before you gave your 2 cents worth. There are literally millions of people pissed off in the US today about what is happening, thanks to politicians who are straight out lying, and judges who refuse to even look at th fraud cases. When you see actual video footage of windows being blocked off you you can't see into counting rooms in Michigan, and Poll watchers being denied entry to watch the ballot counting, and ballots being counted late at night after everyone was told to go home in Georgia that is not some "flaws" in the voting system as you try to claim. And people are fed up with the politicians and the msm trying to whitewash it.

 And now you say everyone should stfu and accept what is going on? Yeah it's a corrupt system but there is nothing you can do about it so just forget it and go on with life? To be honest I don't think that is possible at this point. The fraud has been so transparent that if there isn't something done about it there is going to be riots that made what antifa and blm did this summer look like picnics. You're gonna have millions of people with guns scared that they are losing their rights and freedoms. And all those crooked politicians will have no one to blame but themselves.

Several of the swing states have Republican legislatures and governors. Why would they accept the vote as legit and certify the Biden electors if they thought their elections were fraudulent? The Republican governor of Georgia was a strong supporter of Trump yet even he chose to certify the Biden electors. Why would he do that if there was provable fraud? Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong and that the events you listed as being fraudulent are, in fact, not fraudulent but have perfectly legit explanations?

 Just because they are Republican does not mean they want Trump in. Have you even seen the video where they pulled out those votes out from under the covered table after hours and started counting them when no press and observers were around? The same video that showed Ruby Freeman running the same ballots through a counting machine multiple times? Both those actions are illegal whether they were legal ballots or not. How can you say after seeing that happen that there was no fraud? It's right on tape! You can see it with your own eyes!

 It was obvious that Kent was against Trump when he did nothing about that. He was just another Republican who rode his coattails the last 4 years but never truly supported him. Probably because it was harder to pad his bank account while he was president. Gotta get things back on track again!

 And in Arizona they are having a march tomorrow  to demand that the officials who refused the senate subpoena to release the voting machines for inspection resign. They are gop too. Why would they not let the machines be inspected if they had nothing to hide? But you won't see that on the msm because they are too busy kissing Biden's ass, so here it is on war room.

 That's an Arizona state senator Bannon is talking to. Someone who the msm would never interview and who's twitter account is suspended. There's your land of the free for you. And Steve Bannon's war room just became the most watched political podcast in the US this last week, he has all the big tech censorship to thank for that.

The people in that video were counting votes legally and 2 election officials were in the room.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/video-doesnt-show-suitcases-of-illegal-ballots-in-georgia/

[mhr7]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

 Thanks for posting the link. But it is very vague, and doesn't say anything about what Pence can or cannot do. There is actual precedence showing that the President of the senate can do more that just open and read the electors.  Thomas Jefferson actually became President by claiming 4 electors from Georgia for himself when the ballots were deemed constitutionally defective.
  https://macris.substack.com/p/who-counts-the-votes-of-the-presidential

Thomas Jefferson was remarkably aggressive as President of the Senate. Georgia’s certificate - granting four electoral votes to Jefferson - was constitutionally defective on its face, a deficiency that was announced on the floor of Congress and reported by leading newspapers of the day. To resolve all doubts, we have located Georgia’s certificate in the National Archives, and it does indeed reveal striking constitutional irregularities…

Nevertheless, Jefferson failed to pause before counting George’s four electoral votes into the Republican column, declaring the final vote as if nothing were amiss. Had Georgia’s ballot been excluded, the vote count…would have admitted all five candidates into a runoff in the House… Without the decisive use of his power as President of the Senate, Jefferson might never have become President of the United States. (emphasis added)

Read that again: Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, the man whose face adorns Mt Rushmore, among the most revered founding fathers of our country, only became President because he used his unilateral power as President of the Senate to open and count the presidential ballots in his own favor.


 There is another case written there about when electors from Wisconsin weren't submitted because of a snowstorm, but the President of the senate counted them to his discretion anyways. Take a look if you are interested in reading about it. The bottom line is that Pence's position is not just ceremonial, and all he can do is open ballots as you claim. He has a lot more power than that, power that cannot be overridden by congress as seen by these two cases.

It is just ceremonial, the whole event on Jan. 6th is ceremonial. December 14th was the day the electoral votes were set in stone. If the VP could change the outcome of the election then the US would not be a representative democracy. If the VP could do anything to change the outcome then George H. W. Bush would have served two terms instead of one because VP Dan Quail could have made that happen by not counting the votes of states Bill Clinton won. In 2001, VP Al Gore could have given himself the victory by not counting the vote of Florida. And in 2017, VP Joe Biden could have set aside the votes of the states Trump won thereby giving Hilary Clinton the victory But these things didn't happen because the VP has no power whatsoever to change any votes. If he did, the US would be an Autocracy and there would be no point in voting.

The real story of Thomas Jefferson -

1800 Presidential Election Results

"Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson defeated Federalist John Adams by a margin of seventy-three to sixty-five electoral votes in the presidential election of 1800. When presidential electors cast their votes, however, they failed to distinguish between the office of president and vice president on their ballots. Jefferson and his running mate Aaron Burr each received seventy-three votes. With the votes tied, the election was thrown to the House of Representatives as required by Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. There, each state voted as a unit to decide the election.

Still dominated by Federalists, the sitting Congress loathed to vote for Jefferson—their partisan nemesis. For six days starting on February 11, 1801, Jefferson and Burr essentially ran against each other in the House. Votes were tallied over thirty times, yet neither man captured the necessary majority of nine states. Eventually, Federalist James A. Bayard of Delaware, under intense pressure and fearing for the future of the Union, made known his intention to break the impasse. As Delaware’s lone representative, Bayard controlled the state’s entire vote. On the thirty-sixth ballot, Bayard and other Federalists from South Carolina, Maryland, and Vermont cast blank ballots, breaking the deadlock and giving Jefferson the support of ten states, enough to win the presidency.

https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/elections/election1800.html

And you can watch the process here -

 You are skipping ahead, Jefferson wouldn't have even been in that te if he hadn't taken the Georgia electors. My whole point is that he was able to take them as the President of the senate, even though they were not for him. so it is not just a ceremonial position

Georgia only had 4 electoral votes, Jefferson won by 8. The Georgian votes were for Jefferson so he didn't change their vote. Laws have changed since 1800. Today it is the tellers who examine the votes to make sure they are valid.

 No Georgia had 8, 4 for Jefferson, 4 for Burr. But they were not constitutionally valid because they were not signed by the electors. If what you are saying is true, that his position was only ceremonial then Jefferson should not have been able to count them, but he did, he had the authority to do it. And they had tellers back then too actually.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/03/how-jefferson-counted-himself-in/302888/

He says that Mr. Wells (a teller on the part of the Senate) informed him that the envelope was blank; that the return of the votes was not authenticated by the signatures of the electors, or any of them, either on the outside or the inside of the envelope, or in any other manner; that it merely stated in the inside that the votes of Georgia were, for Thomas Jefferson four; and for Aaron Burr four; without the signature of any person whatsoever. Mr. Wells added, that he was very undecided as to the proper course to be pursued by the tellers. It was, however, suggested by one of them that the paper should be handed to the presiding officer, without any statement from the tellers except that the return was informal; that he consented to this arrangement under the firm conviction that Mr. Jefferson would announce the nature of the informality from the chair; but, to his utmost surprise, he (Mr. Jefferson) rapidly declared that the votes of Georgia were four for Thomas Jefferson and four for Aaron Burr, without noticing their informality, and in a hurried manner put them aside, and then broke the seals and handed to the tellers the package from the next state

Yes, Jefferson should not have counted the vote, but the 4 electoral votes Georgia had for president, the other 4 votes being for vice president, didn't change the outcome. Ultimately, this was an anomaly in the history of vote announcement.

[d672]

mhr7, there is nothing you can say that can help people like Billy. He and many other poor men and women have a belief so profound, yet unfounded in reality that they cannot accept the world around them as real.

When Pence gets on his hind legs and announces that Biden will be the next president of the United States there will be some new story, some new way to reject the reality of the world.

I think that people who act in this way in respect of one part of their perception of the world tend to do so in many areas of their lives - we certainly see it happen on this forum.

If somebody says to me that US elections are flawed, then I can agree with them. I doubt that many rational, honest, people would gainsay that contention. Most of us understand that the process will happen. Billy and others like him will come up with some new story - perhaps a guerrilla war led my a renegade Trump.

Like it or not Biden won the election. Whether it was honest, fair corrupt or not is not the issue. That's a finished battle.

Next time round the Democrats will be arguing the same points as many Trump supporters. Nothing will change becasue careers and fortunes are at stake. What suits Democrats now will suit Republicans in 4 or 8 years time. It  will suit stakeholders of all parties in lower level elections across the Home of the brae and so nobody will take a stance against it. The will to make real changes does not exist.

 Lol! Listen to yourself Andrew. For years I have seen you cutting down people for not thinking for themselves, just believing the script given to them. Now when they do you cut them down for doing it! 

 You obviously didn't do much research before you gave your 2 cents worth. There are literally millions of people pissed off in the US today about what is happening, thanks to politicians who are straight out lying, and judges who refuse to even look at th fraud cases. When you see actual video footage of windows being blocked off you you can't see into counting rooms in Michigan, and Poll watchers being denied entry to watch the ballot counting, and ballots being counted late at night after everyone was told to go home in Georgia that is not some "flaws" in the voting system as you try to claim. And people are fed up with the politicians and the msm trying to whitewash it.

 And now you say everyone should stfu and accept what is going on? Yeah it's a corrupt system but there is nothing you can do about it so just forget it and go on with life? To be honest I don't think that is possible at this point. The fraud has been so transparent that if there isn't something done about it there is going to be riots that made what antifa and blm did this summer look like picnics. You're gonna have millions of people with guns scared that they are losing their rights and freedoms. And all those crooked politicians will have no one to blame but themselves.

Several of the swing states have Republican legislatures and governors. Why would they accept the vote as legit and certify the Biden electors if they thought their elections were fraudulent? The Republican governor of Georgia was a strong supporter of Trump yet even he chose to certify the Biden electors. Why would he do that if there was provable fraud? Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong and that the events you listed as being fraudulent are, in fact, not fraudulent but have perfectly legit explanations?

 Just because they are Republican does not mean they want Trump in. Have you even seen the video where they pulled out those votes out from under the covered table after hours and started counting them when no press and observers were around? The same video that showed Ruby Freeman running the same ballots through a counting machine multiple times? Both those actions are illegal whether they were legal ballots or not. How can you say after seeing that happen that there was no fraud? It's right on tape! You can see it with your own eyes!

 It was obvious that Kent was against Trump when he did nothing about that. He was just another Republican who rode his coattails the last 4 years but never truly supported him. Probably because it was harder to pad his bank account while he was president. Gotta get things back on track again!

 And in Arizona they are having a march tomorrow  to demand that the officials who refused the senate subpoena to release the voting machines for inspection resign. They are gop too. Why would they not let the machines be inspected if they had nothing to hide? But you won't see that on the msm because they are too busy kissing Biden's ass, so here it is on war room.

 That's an Arizona state senator Bannon is talking to. Someone who the msm would never interview and who's twitter account is suspended. There's your land of the free for you. And Steve Bannon's war room just became the most watched political podcast in the US this last week, he has all the big tech censorship to thank for that.

The people in that video were counting votes legally and 2 election officials were in the room.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/video-doesnt-show-suitcases-of-illegal-ballots-in-georgia/

 You better get your fact checker checked. the story they tried to tell that the poll watchers and the media left on their own has been debunked, they admit it isn't true now. and they were also supposed to inform the watchers they were going to resume counting but they never
 Then there is Ruby putting the ballots through multiple times. top left corner of the video. That is clearly fraud

[d672]

Here's another twist that i heard about today. I was watching Steve Bannon's war room and he was asking Trump's lawyer Boris Epshteyn what they were planning next, it looked like they were running out of options and time was running out. Epshteyn said that people have to remember that at the end of the day it is congress who determines who won the election and there was nothing to worry about.

He never went into details but I also found this video where a guy explains that Pence can refuse to even open the envelope containing a State's electors if that State broke federal election laws and as a result could sway the outcome of that election. And according to the constitution Pence has the final say in this. No debate, no court cases, nothing. The States he rejects would not be counted and if he does this with all the States in dispute then Trump will win 232 votes to Biden's 222. The guy also mentions that this was also said on the Rasmussen site. If this is true then Trump should have this in the bag.

Congress won't change the electoral vote, the Democrats in the House won't approve any objections and there are about a half dozen Republicans in the Senate who have said they won't approve any either. Plus Mitch McConnell has discouraged any senators from objecting. Pence's job is purely ceremonial, he has no constitutional authority whatsoever to deny a state its certified electoral votes. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassly, will.

 Got anything to back that up or are you just making stuff up again? Show us some legislation where it says that.

 According to what was said Pence has all the say, congress has nothing to do with that. I honestly don't know, I never read up to see if that is true. So show me

When have I previously made stuff up? Doing research is easy. I don't know why you and Billy think I'm here to do it for you.

 When you tried to say Trump hasn't done anything since the election and I showed you links where he did... thats just one of the times.

 We both gave links to back up what we say. You come along saying it is wrong yet don't show any proof why. Now that you are challenged about it you are trying to weasel your way out of it. The onus is on you to back your claims, not us. It's not the first time you've done that and I am sure it won't be the last. What you don't realize is how foolish you look when you give such stupid excuses to not back your BS. And how foolish you look when you insult what someone says instead of responding with a rebuttal, like you just did with Billy. Tell me, do you really think anyone who reads that thinks it's a good argument? Sorry, but around these here parts we call that a cop out!

Billy and I have discussed dueling electors MANY times and he still goes on and on about it. I've shown him evidence but he prefers his version of unreality.

Here's my evidence -

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States,

There ya go, that's what Pence will do. Open envelopes and declare the winner.

 Thanks for posting the link. But it is very vague, and doesn't say anything about what Pence can or cannot do. There is actual precedence showing that the President of the senate can do more that just open and read the electors.  Thomas Jefferson actually became President by claiming 4 electors from Georgia for himself when the ballots were deemed constitutionally defective.
  https://macris.substack.com/p/who-counts-the-votes-of-the-presidential

Thomas Jefferson was remarkably aggressive as President of the Senate. Georgia’s certificate - granting four electoral votes to Jefferson - was constitutionally defective on its face, a deficiency that was announced on the floor of Congress and reported by leading newspapers of the day. To resolve all doubts, we have located Georgia’s certificate in the National Archives, and it does indeed reveal striking constitutional irregularities…

Nevertheless, Jefferson failed to pause before counting George’s four electoral votes into the Republican column, declaring the final vote as if nothing were amiss. Had Georgia’s ballot been excluded, the vote count…would have admitted all five candidates into a runoff in the House… Without the decisive use of his power as President of the Senate, Jefferson might never have become President of the United States. (emphasis added)

Read that again: Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, the man whose face adorns Mt Rushmore, among the most revered founding fathers of our country, only became President because he used his unilateral power as President of the Senate to open and count the presidential ballots in his own favor.


 There is another case written there about when electors from Wisconsin weren't submitted because of a snowstorm, but the President of the senate counted them to his discretion anyways. Take a look if you are interested in reading about it. The bottom line is that Pence's position is not just ceremonial, and all he can do is open ballots as you claim. He has a lot more power than that, power that cannot be overridden by congress as seen by these two cases.

It is just ceremonial, the whole event on Jan. 6th is ceremonial. December 14th was the day the electoral votes were set in stone. If the VP could change the outcome of the election then the US would not be a representative democracy. If the VP could do anything to change the outcome then George H. W. Bush would have served two terms instead of one because VP Dan Quail could have made that happen by not counting the votes of states Bill Clinton won. In 2001, VP Al Gore could have given himself the victory by not counting the vote of Florida. And in 2017, VP Joe Biden could have set aside the votes of the states Trump won thereby giving Hilary Clinton the victory But these things didn't happen because the VP has no power whatsoever to change any votes. If he did, the US would be an Autocracy and there would be no point in voting.

The real story of Thomas Jefferson -

1800 Presidential Election Results

"Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson defeated Federalist John Adams by a margin of seventy-three to sixty-five electoral votes in the presidential election of 1800. When presidential electors cast their votes, however, they failed to distinguish between the office of president and vice president on their ballots. Jefferson and his running mate Aaron Burr each received seventy-three votes. With the votes tied, the election was thrown to the House of Representatives as required by Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. There, each state voted as a unit to decide the election.

Still dominated by Federalists, the sitting Congress loathed to vote for Jefferson—their partisan nemesis. For six days starting on February 11, 1801, Jefferson and Burr essentially ran against each other in the House. Votes were tallied over thirty times, yet neither man captured the necessary majority of nine states. Eventually, Federalist James A. Bayard of Delaware, under intense pressure and fearing for the future of the Union, made known his intention to break the impasse. As Delaware’s lone representative, Bayard controlled the state’s entire vote. On the thirty-sixth ballot, Bayard and other Federalists from South Carolina, Maryland, and Vermont cast blank ballots, breaking the deadlock and giving Jefferson the support of ten states, enough to win the presidency.

https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/elections/election1800.html

And you can watch the process here -

 You are skipping ahead, Jefferson wouldn't have even been in that te if he hadn't taken the Georgia electors. My whole point is that he was able to take them as the President of the senate, even though they were not for him. so it is not just a ceremonial position

Georgia only had 4 electoral votes, Jefferson won by 8. The Georgian votes were for Jefferson so he didn't change their vote. Laws have changed since 1800. Today it is the tellers who examine the votes to make sure they are valid.

 No Georgia had 8, 4 for Jefferson, 4 for Burr. But they were not constitutionally valid because they were not signed by the electors. If what you are saying is true, that his position was only ceremonial then Jefferson should not have been able to count them, but he did, he had the authority to do it. And they had tellers back then too actually.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/03/how-jefferson-counted-himself-in/302888/

He says that Mr. Wells (a teller on the part of the Senate) informed him that the envelope was blank; that the return of the votes was not authenticated by the signatures of the electors, or any of them, either on the outside or the inside of the envelope, or in any other manner; that it merely stated in the inside that the votes of Georgia were, for Thomas Jefferson four; and for Aaron Burr four; without the signature of any person whatsoever. Mr. Wells added, that he was very undecided as to the proper course to be pursued by the tellers. It was, however, suggested by one of them that the paper should be handed to the presiding officer, without any statement from the tellers except that the return was informal; that he consented to this arrangement under the firm conviction that Mr. Jefferson would announce the nature of the informality from the chair; but, to his utmost surprise, he (Mr. Jefferson) rapidly declared that the votes of Georgia were four for Thomas Jefferson and four for Aaron Burr, without noticing their informality, and in a hurried manner put them aside, and then broke the seals and handed to the tellers the package from the next state

Yes, Jefferson should not have counted the vote, but the 4 electoral votes Georgia had for president, the other 4 votes being for vice president, didn't change the outcome. Ultimately, this was an anomaly in the history of vote announcement.

 Nothing in the constitution says he could not do it. and its just one of the two times I showed you that a President of the senate has authority to do more than just count the votes, so it isn't just ceremonial like you claim. that's all there is to it. You can try to argue black is white all you want but the facts say different

[andrewfi]

D672, before you go on and on,try understanding what you read! If you can't grasp what you read then ask a question.

I am certain that many people in the USA are unhappy about the election system in the country.
But they are not the people who matter. The significant stakeholders are those who use the system to gain power and wealth. Yup repeating myself,but if you don't understand then ask a question.

The electorate do not hold the power. The Trump presidency showed us that. The incumbent power systems cooperated in running a slow coup against the president. He was unable to do anything substantive against the forces he was elected to combat.

Again, if there is something you don't understand,please ask a question.

The power in USAian politics is not with the electorate. The electorate is not up for an effective armed insurrection, no matter how many guns your masters let you keep under your beds.

D672, try to look at the world as it is, not as your beer fuelled fantasies present it to you.