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Author Topic: Hot Potato  (Read 335 times)

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Online Confederate

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Hot Potato
« on: June 07, 2020, 01:55:37 PM »
Possibly shedding some light on war crimes attributed to Nazi Germany.

Have any of the intelligent people heard of this order from Stalin? (hoping to exclude the obnoxious illiterate one)


“as well as intelligence units, skiers and Partisan divisions, who are equipped with bottles with flammable liquid. These hunting expeditions in their activities of destruction are to be dressed to the greatest extent in German soldier’s uniforms and uniforms of the Waffen-SS looted from the German army.”


https://historicaltribune.wordpress.com/tag/stalin-order-0428/
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Online msmoby

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2020, 11:24:41 PM »
Sighs..

What ARE you trying to say, Cornfed ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dont-blame-us-for-stalins-slaughter-says-putin-1938727.html


"At a sombre ceremony in Katyn forest, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin urged Poles not to blame the Russian people for the murder of 22,000 Polish officers by Stalin's secret police in 1940 and to look to the future, not just the past.

"We cannot change the past but we can establish and preserve the truth and that means historical justice. Polish and Russian historians are now working to uncover this truth and to allow an opening between our countries," said Mr Putin."



Online andrewfi

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2020, 05:24:10 AM »
Confederate, order 0428 exists, there are copies in both Russian and U.S national archives.

Unfortunately for fans of war porn, the document does not say that which is claimed in your war porn link. The relevant text appears to have been added to a publicised version of the text of the order in around 1995 when it appeared in a German book: “Stalins Blutspur durch Europa: Partner des Westens 1933-1945”. I can't find this book in Google Books so no link.

The Soviet forces did follow a scorched earth policy but the order 0428 which outlines the activity does not mention people dressing up in German uniforms and committing atrocities.
The matter is discussed here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VXNwgpyOhSrxr-pszrGheAJL6OXOhTl6/view?usp=sharing The linked document is peer reviewed journal of contemporary history from October 2000.

Scroll down to page 670 for the relevant article and footnotes. The PDF is in German but Google Translate makes the job of reading easy.

As you can imagine, the policy did not sit well with the inhabitants of the affected regions who stood to lose everything. Here's a passage from a book Stalin, The Russians and Their War by M. J. Broekmeyer and Marius Broekmeyer,
https://books.google.ru/books?id=PGANqVNdjKQC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=Stalin%2BOrder%2B0428&source=bl&ots=hkARoUZQOV&sig=P2Cak7jTEViqI_PJNAU9dII4dsY&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Stalin%2BOrder%2B0428&f=false

There's other contemporaneous reports of the actions but it should be remembered that these were different days. There would have been little propaganda value in dressing people up in German uniforms because communications were so poor that such stories would not have travelled widely enough. The movement of people, animals, factories and other resources was a huge and very unpleasant endeavour but all together the migration saved the country and enabled the Russians to win the war.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!


Online Confederate

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2020, 09:35:39 AM »
Confederate, order 0428 exists, there are copies in both Russian and U.S national archives.

Unfortunately for fans of war porn, the document does not say that which is claimed in your war porn link. The relevant text appears to have been added to a publicised version of the text of the order in around 1995 when it appeared in a German book: “Stalins Blutspur durch Europa: Partner des Westens 1933-1945”. I can't find this book in Google Books so no link.

The Soviet forces did follow a scorched earth policy but the order 0428 which outlines the activity does not mention people dressing up in German uniforms and committing atrocities.
The matter is discussed here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VXNwgpyOhSrxr-pszrGheAJL6OXOhTl6/view?usp=sharing The linked document is peer reviewed journal of contemporary history from October 2000.

Scroll down to page 670 for the relevant article and footnotes. The PDF is in German but Google Translate makes the job of reading easy.

As you can imagine, the policy did not sit well with the inhabitants of the affected regions who stood to lose everything. Here's a passage from a book Stalin, The Russians and Their War by M. J. Broekmeyer and Marius Broekmeyer,
https://books.google.ru/books?id=PGANqVNdjKQC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=Stalin%2BOrder%2B0428&source=bl&ots=hkARoUZQOV&sig=P2Cak7jTEViqI_PJNAU9dII4dsY&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Stalin%2BOrder%2B0428&f=false

There's other contemporaneous reports of the actions but it should be remembered that these were different days. There would have been little propaganda value in dressing people up in German uniforms because communications were so poor that such stories would not have travelled widely enough. The movement of people, animals, factories and other resources was a huge and very unpleasant endeavour but all together the migration saved the country and enabled the Russians to win the war.

Thanks for your reply Andrew.

I still cannot fathom why Hitler ordered the German military to break the treaty with Russia.

Russia was actually supplying Germany with needed commodities prior to the commencement of “operation Barbarossa”.

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Online andrewfi

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 10:25:51 AM »
First, not an expert, just read a bit over the years!

1) Hitler badly, very badly, needed access to the oil fields in Baku and the Caucasus. That meant crossing Ukraine and the southern part of Russia.

He got distracted and decided to take Stalingrad and that error cost him the war.

2) Hitler became concerned that Stalin was building up forces to attack Germany. While this is not the generally accepted view of history there is some justification for that concern.

Here's a brief overview of the oil supply issue as part of a larger piece on oil and war: https://defense.info/re-thinking-strategy/2018/10/oil-and-war/#:~:text=However%20despite%20the%20German%2DSoviet,in%20Baku%20and%20the%20Caucasus.
That is an interesting article. :)

Here's the Wikipedia page on Soviet Offensive plans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

While the first question is in no doubt, the second is being debated.
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Offline Twinky

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 12:41:48 PM »
While the first question is in no doubt, the second is being debated.
The second question have not debated as Stalin haven't plans to to attack Axis forces in Eastern Europe prior to Operation Barbarossa.
Here is the attempts change the facts history to find an enemy in Soviet Union and at least partially justify the crimes of Nazism.

Soviet ideology was spread worldwide to find new friendly country and it wasnt any aggressive intentions to Germany or other European country or other country at all. 
The aggressiveness of Stalin's politics was inside the country and not outside. Russia historically almost haven't aggressive politics and expansion wars. 

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 01:57:05 PM »
Twinky, the matter is debated, that is clear - I did not invent the idea or carry out the research. The idea came from Russian historians including a bloke called Suvorov, and have a sound basis in historical research. However, as there was no attack on Germany before Barbarossa and thus no invasion orders it is not possible to be certain and, of course there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

What we do know, among other things, is the the Soviet army was primarily configured in an offensive rather than defensive mode, that offensive scenarios had been worked through, that the Red Army had an unusually large contingent of paratroopers - useless in defensive operations - albeit not very well trained in early 1941. Most importantly, war between the Soviet Union and Germany was inevitable. The Soviets knew of Germany's need for oil in the Caucasus and Donbas coal and that meant an invasion by German forces.

You can read up on it for yourself. It is an interesting idea. As a non-expert, I have no opinion, but it is clear that it would be foolish to disregard the possibility.

By the way, suggesting that the Soviet Union might have attacked Germany is hardly anti-Russian. If anything, it suggests that Soviet forces might have been better prepared than history records - just that they were beaten to the punch. IIRC Suvorov reckons that the reason the German forces attacked when they did was because Hitler had intelligence to suggest this and so started Barbarossa. That seems odd as it seems the invasion was delayed to finish other business in Romania and because of the wet winter.
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Offline Twinky

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 02:27:34 PM »
But who is IIRC Suvorov? Or where is this resource? If its the writer so its doubt source of historical viewing. As a writer he has a lot of imaginations.

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2020, 06:32:55 PM »
Twinky, the matter is debated, that is clear - I did not invent the idea or carry out the research. The idea came from Russian historians including a bloke called Suvorov, and have a sound basis in historical research. However, as there was no attack on Germany before Barbarossa and thus no invasion orders it is not possible to be certain and, of course there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

What we do know, among other things, is the the Soviet army was primarily configured in an offensive rather than defensive mode, that offensive scenarios had been worked through, that the Red Army had an unusually large contingent of paratroopers - useless in defensive operations - albeit not very well trained in early 1941. Most importantly, war between the Soviet Union and Germany was inevitable. The Soviets knew of Germany's need for oil in the Caucasus and Donbas coal and that meant an invasion by German forces.

You can read up on it for yourself. It is an interesting idea. As a non-expert, I have no opinion, but it is clear that it would be foolish to disregard the possibility.

By the way, suggesting that the Soviet Union might have attacked Germany is hardly anti-Russian. If anything, it suggests that Soviet forces might have been better prepared than history records - just that they were beaten to the punch. IIRC Suvorov reckons that the reason the German forces attacked when they did was because Hitler had intelligence to suggest this and so started Barbarossa. That seems odd as it seems the invasion was delayed to finish other business in Romania and because of the wet winter.

1. I thoroughly agree with Andrew that there was some evidence that the former Soviet had made contingency plans to attack Germany. The goals of Communism were to enslave the entire World. Is was not a secret I could easily post several sources proving this.

2. I disagree with Andy that the war between the two powers was inevitable. Hitler was on drugs to go to sleep, other drugs to wake up and it’s safe to say he had delusions of grandeur to the point of demons and insanity controlling him. He led a great nation and a great people to complete and utter ruin. And if he had been sane and kept the treaty both nations could have prospered.

Twinky you’re probably in Russia right now and it’s probably not PC for you to discuss the many crimes of Lenin, Stalin and Soviet Russian Communism in general; however those crimes were prolific and they exceeded the crimes of Germany at that time. Not that Hitler wasn’t trying to catch up.
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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2020, 09:09:26 PM »
IIRC Suvorov reckons that the reason the German forces attacked when they did was because Hitler had intelligence to suggest this and so started Barbarossa.

While I am not 100% certain I believe IIRC stands for If I Recall.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2020, 01:15:49 AM »
Confederate,
1) of course war between Germany and and Russia was inevitable. Apart from anything else, it was German government policy.

2) World enslavement was never Soviet policy. The premise of Communism, the philosophical underpinning of the Soviet system was the absolute opposite of the enslavement of workers.

3) Russia is not the United States. There are relatively few restrictions upon what people might think and say.

And yes Avhdb and Twinky, IIRC is an acronym for if I remember/recall correctly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Suvorov
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Offline Twinky

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2020, 11:02:30 AM »
Yes, but the Viktor Suvorov at really name Resun was traitor. So he can have any meaning to justify himself and give a reason for his actions. Its doubt historical source.
It need to come to library and archive to find something reliably.
And also at this time as I know at the USA have place for polite settlers and Canada had some polite repression and the colony  for polite settlers. It was relatively shot time but it was. So this social illness was not only for Germany or Soviet Union. Abuses of power and crimes against citizens were also planned by western countries but it didn't touch so much as Europe and SU.

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2020, 11:31:34 AM »
Abuses of power and crimes against citizens were also planned by western countries but it didn't touch so much as Europe and SU.

I still have not found Utopia, but I didn't see it over there and it's not here.

In my opinion European nations have and seem to continue to abuse there citizens. (For the good order I consider Europe, countries West of the Urals and more or less North of a line drawn from the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea including Georgia.) In fact at times I think the 'colonies' are a bunch of amateurs.
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Offline Twinky

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2020, 12:15:17 PM »
"Colonies" is not  "bunch of amateurs" I mean colonies as пенитенциарные учреждения, места ссылки (penitentiary institutions, places of exile).

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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2020, 02:51:39 PM »
"Colonies" is not  "bunch of amateurs" I mean colonies as пенитенциарные учреждения, места ссылки (penitentiary institutions, places of exile).

Aah! I did not consider colonies or places to mean penitentiary. I think in the West one might say gulag when referring to the Soviet period and locations. A place of exile before the Soviet period was Siberia as a whole. As I noted elsewhere V. Lenin was sent there twice.

On occasion some of the posters from the UK will refer the countries of North America as the colonies. I suspect there are regrets that we are no longer subservient to there wishes.  :hidechair:

As Andrew in the past has noted English is a tricky language, some speak the Queen's English others the People's English and one poster speaks Natural English. (No one is quite sure what he means.)
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Re: Hot Potato
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2020, 10:54:31 AM »
Its not English is a tricky language, its tricky method to name the penitentiary by usual word. Gulag have core in word lag or lager as campus or so. There is lager of pioneers, children school campus. So it sound not so frightened. :coffeeread: Looks like first settlements or other places. imho :hidechair: