Should Soviet Statues be Removed?

[msmoby]

Unlike Czech authorities (who have recently removed a monument to Marshal Konev

Not sure why the 'cheesey grin' or comparison is being made ..

I'm surprised a Russian general's statue lasted so long, given it was a Soviet ( 'Communist') response in Korea and Moscow came to 'liberate' the Czechs from authoritarianism, imposed their own form of same and forgot to leave for nigh on 50 years ..

[AvHdB]

Unlike Czech authorities (who have recently removed a monument to Marshal Konev ), Kim dynasty takes good care of the graves of Soviet soldiers, who died in Korea in 1945. Thus a medal for Kim the young:

There are a number of threads discussing the removal of monuments to soldiers and there leaders that have been removed or desecrated. This has happened in the Baltics, Ukraine as well as the South of the United States. It is a sad commentary on the mentality and agenda of those who organize there removal.

[rosco]

Unlike Czech authorities (who have recently removed a monument to Marshal Konev

Not sure why the 'cheesey grin' or comparison is being made ..

I'm surprised a Russian general's statue lasted so long, given it was a Soviet ( 'Communist') response in Korea and Moscow came to 'liberate' the Czechs from authoritarianism, imposed their own form of same and forgot to leave for nigh on 50 years ..

I see you’re a fan of deleting history because you don't like aspects of it, very childish. Those campaigning for the removal of statues aren’t emotionally equipped to see the bigger picture and they seem to think that a statue needs to be celebrated......for some strange reason.

Even the more controversial statues should remain in place because it reminds the newer generations of our not so wonderful past. Papering over the cracks because it upsets your feelings is an individual flaw, not a societal one. At least by outing yourself as one of them, it makes it easier for us to identify you and put you in your place.

[AvHdB]

Unlike Czech authorities (who have recently removed a monument to Marshal Konev

Not sure why the 'cheesey grin' or comparison is being made ..

I'm surprised a Russian general's statue lasted so long, given it was a Soviet ( 'Communist') response in Korea and Moscow came to 'liberate' the Czechs from authoritarianism, imposed their own form of same and forgot to leave for nigh on 50 years ..

I see you’re a fan of deleting history because you don't like aspects of it, very childish. Those campaigning for the removal of statues aren’t emotionally equipped to see the bigger picture and they seem to think that a statue needs to be celebrated......for some strange reason.

Even the more controversial statues should remain in place because it reminds the newer generations of our not so wonderful past. Papering over the cracks because it upsets your feelings is an individual flaw, not a societal one. At least by outing yourself as one of them, it makes it easier for us to identify you and put you in your place.

Thank you, well said!

[msmoby]

I see you're a fan of deleting history because you don't like aspects of it, very childish.

All I see you are a 'fan' of joining grown up discussions and realising you are out of your depth, laddie ...

Let me ask you a question.. 

Imagine you were on Guernsey during the Nazi occupation and the Germans erected a monument to a Nazi ... Would you expect the residents to 'respect' it after the occupation was over ... ?

IF you have access to Amazon Prime, I recommend "The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society"

[AvHdB]

I see you’re a fan of deleting history because you don't like aspects of it, very childish.

All I see you are a 'fan' of joining grown up discussions and realising you are out of your depth, laddie ...

Let me ask you a question.. 

Imagine you were on Guernsey during the Nazi occupation and the Germans erected a monument to a Nazi ... Would you expect the residents to 'respect' it after the occupation was over ... ?

IF you have access to Amazon Prime, I recommend "The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society"

Your question is rather pointless. Why not deal with reality.

[rosco]

I see you’re a fan of deleting history because you don't like aspects of it, very childish.

All I see you are a 'fan' of joining grown up discussions and realising you are out of your depth, laddie ...

Let me ask you a question.. 

Imagine you were on Guernsey during the Nazi occupation and the Germans erected a monument to a Nazi ... Would you expect the residents to 'respect' it after the occupation was over ... ?

IF you have access to Amazon Prime, I recommend "The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society"

More nonsense from our self appointed far left Tory. Now I’ll make this one quick because I already wasted 5 minutes answering another poorly thought through post from you on another thread.

For starters, and I’ll make this very clear to you, I don’t believe it’s right to pull down statues of historical value or reference, because someone who wasn’t even around at the time, decides that history (good, bad & different) offends their 21st century moral compass. It’s pathetic we even need to discuss this with you.

Now onto your question. The Nazis have never set foot in Guernsey for about 75 years so any statue which was erected under occupation could have been pulled down anytime from 1945 onwards. That a statue like that is still here today, serves as a reminder of our not so happy past and might well sow the seeds for future generations to learn all about life during that era. Tear it down and the Nazis and their occupation may we’ll be forgotten and lessons learned since thrown in the bin.

I spend quite a bit of time on Jersey where my sisters lived for around 20 years and I find the statues, bunkers and museums fascinating. It provokes thought and learning. Tearing it down and hiding it because people like you get offended is a true crime in itself.

We have plenty of statues and memorabilia up here in Scotland, much of it doesn’t sit well for a Scot, learning about our bloody history, English occupation and lost battles. But without them, we would all forget our past or worse still, let you lefties re-write our history for us.

Just look at how the BBC rewrites our history with their ridiculous dramas and programmes. No doubt you lap it up like the 3rd wave beta male dog you are. 

[rosco]

I see you’re a fan of deleting history because you don't like aspects of it, very childish.

All I see you are a 'fan' of joining grown up discussions and realising you are out of your depth, laddie ...

Let me ask you a question.. 

Imagine you were on Guernsey during the Nazi occupation and the Germans erected a monument to a Nazi ... Would you expect the residents to 'respect' it after the occupation was over ... ?

IF you have access to Amazon Prime, I recommend "The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society"

Your question is rather pointless. Why not deal with reality.

Agreed.

Moby asks, do we expect residents to respect it? The reality is, if the monuments weren’t torn down by those who lived during those times, what gives us the right to do so? People nowadays with their liberal ideals can’t even see how short sighted and selfish they are. They’re the new fascists.

He also misses the main point and confirms what I said earlier. He thinks statues need to be respected where in reality they’re a bookmark in our history.

Imagine what we’d be left with if Egyptians or Greeks from the 1800’s decided that their empires from years gone by were unethical so they destroyed the pyramids and the Parthenon.

Moby, you’re an idiot.

[msmoby]

Your question is rather pointless. Why not deal with reality.

Er, AvHdB

Guernsey and other Channel islands were occupied by the Nazi's,, the reality is like most occupiers - their statues and laws to drive on the 'wrong' side of the road were undone.. 

[AvHdB]

Your question is rather pointless. Why not deal with reality.

Er, AvHdB

Guernsey and other Channel islands were occupied by the Nazi's,, the reality is like most occupiers - their statues and laws to drive on the 'wrong' side of the road were undone..

ms, I must admit I admire the patience of Rosco to deal with your attitude and challenges! Please explain what are you 'burbling about'?, or is this just another swerve?

[Markje]

Unlike Czech authorities (who have recently removed a monument to Marshal Konev

Not sure why the 'cheesey grin' or comparison is being made ..

I'm surprised a Russian general's statue lasted so long, given it was a Soviet ( 'Communist') response in Korea and Moscow came to 'liberate' the Czechs from authoritarianism, imposed their own form of same and forgot to leave for nigh on 50 years ..

Ah you're trying to change history again.

You do well to read up on Marshal Konev before accusing him of something nefarious. The removal of his statue is completely uncalled for.

Heroes should be left alone.

[Markje]

Unlike Czech authorities (who have recently removed a monument to Marshal Konev

Not sure why the 'cheesey grin' or comparison is being made ..

I'm surprised a Russian general's statue lasted so long, given it was a Soviet ( 'Communist') response in Korea and Moscow came to 'liberate' the Czechs from authoritarianism, imposed their own form of same and forgot to leave for nigh on 50 years ..

Ah you're trying to change history again.

You do well to read up on Marshal Konev before accusing him of something nefarious. The removal of his statue is completely uncalled for.

Heroes should be left alone.

Just to help moby along:

Its also illegal what happened to this statue, the Czech authorities are looking into :

Committee opened a criminal case under the third paragraph of article 354.1 criminal code (“the Desecration of symbols of Russia’s military glory, committed publicly”).

Some further reading about exactly who this Marshal was (from New york times):
https://www.nytimes.com/1973/05/22/archives/marshal-ivan-s-konev-war-hero-dies-a-masterly-commander-served-as.html

And to put icing on the cake: Even the horrific anti-Russian disinformation site agrees that this is not something to celebrate 
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/removal-of-soviet-marshal-konevs-statue-in-prague-is-immoral-and-illegal/

[msmoby]

Ah you're trying to change history again.

You do well to read up on Marshal Konev before accusing him of something nefarious. The removal of his statue is completely uncalled for.

Heroes should be left alone.

Markje,

My stance is because I understand the perspective from living in a few nations that have been unwillingly occupied  .. I have FAR, far more about the feelings on both sides re removal / erections of statues..  'Irelands', 'Cyprus' ',  Georgia..

Your 'hero' is not regarded as such in a nation that was occupied and went to wars against a system they now support.

[msmoby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52630891

Czech media name Russian diplomat in 'poison plot' row

Russia's embassy in Prague has asked for police protection for one of its diplomats, who has been named by Czech media amid allegations of a plot to poison Czech politicians.

In 2018, there were 121 Russian diplomats and support staff in Prague, with another 18 at the country's consulates in Brno and Karlovy Vary. It's one of the biggest Russian diplomatic missions in Europe.

Exactly how many are spies using diplomatic cover is known only to Moscow. Privately Czech officials believe it could be as high as 40%.

Czech journalists are now tweeting photos of Mr Konchakov from his Facebook account. One of the most recent shows him surrounded by members of Russia's Night Wolves motorcycle gang, in front of the statue of World War Two Russian general Ivan Konev in Prague.

That's the statue that has now been removed; the act that caused so much anger in Moscow.

[AvHdB]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52630891

Czech media name Russian diplomat in 'poison plot' row

Russia's embassy in Prague has asked for police protection for one of its diplomats, who has been named by Czech media amid allegations of a plot to poison Czech politicians.

In 2018, there were 121 Russian diplomats and support staff in Prague, with another 18 at the country's consulates in Brno and Karlovy Vary. It's one of the biggest Russian diplomatic missions in Europe.

Exactly how many are spies using diplomatic cover is known only to Moscow. Privately Czech officials believe it could be as high as 40%.

Czech journalists are now tweeting photos of Mr Konchakov from his Facebook account. One of the most recent shows him surrounded by members of Russia's Night Wolves motorcycle gang, in front of the statue of World War Two Russian general Ivan Konev in Prague.

That's the statue that has now been removed; the act that caused so much anger in Moscow.

Please explain what the 'diplomat' has to do with the removal of the statue. Worth noting Karlsbad or Karlovy Vary as it is now known is largely owned by Russians and was the setting of a recent James Bond 007 movie.

[msmoby]

Please explain what the 'diplomat' has to do with the removal of the statue.

Please read the article, again..

"The head of the federal agency he works for in Moscow dismissed the reports as a "pure provocation", linked to an ongoing row over the removal of a statue of Soviet Marshal Ivan Konev in Prague.

Last month a Czech weekly, Respekt, alleged that a Russian agent had travelled to Prague with a suitcase containing the highly potent toxin, ricin. It suggested the poison might be used to target Czech politicians who had angered Russia.

Who is the man named in Czech media?
A Czech TV news programme has now alleged that the reports involved Andrei Konchakov, head of the Russian Centre for Science and Culture in Prague, and suggests he is an undeclared intelligence officer.

Without naming him, the embassy said on its Facebook page that a member of its staff was the target of an "anti-Russian information campaign" and that it had been forced to apply for police protection for him. It said the diplomat was the victim of a "slander campaign" whipped up by Czech media.

Worth noting Karlsbad or Karlovy Vary as it is now known is largely owned by Russians and was the setting of a recent James Bond 007 movie.

1/ The Czechs call it  Karlovy Vary.. Carlsbad( aka Karlsbad)  is the name the Germans use ..( a bit like us referring Moscow as 'Moskau') 

2/ It was film in Prague and in studios there, Planá, and Loket.. the Casino hotel exterior was Karlovy Vary .  very popular with the Russians

3/ I would not describe 14 years (2006) ago as 'recent'..it was Daniel Craig's first bond film and he's on his last ..

[Markje]

Your 'hero' is not regarded as such in a nation that was occupied and went to wars against a system they now support.

Oh he is, thats why this was also a big shit-storm in their media.

[msmoby]

Your 'hero' is not regarded as such in a nation that was occupied and went to wars against a system they now support.

Oh he is, thats why this was also a big shit-storm in their media.

Don't be a silly billy..

Two petitions re the statue ( keep or remove) were held and remove got FOUR times more signatures..

The statue kept being defaced..it ended up being covered ..

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomn%C3%ADk_mar%C5%A1%C3%A1la_Kon%C4%9Bva_v_Praze in Czech

The Marshall 'liberated' Prague, but his troops forgot to leave and he was instrumental in putting down the Hungarian uprising..

You may be confusing the Czech President with the views of many younger people, who saw the post WW2 years as Soviet occupation.. not liberation

https://www.rferl.org/a/prague-to-remove-statue-of-wwii-soviet-marshal-sparking-moscow-s-ire/30161806.html

[rosco]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52630891

Czech media name Russian diplomat in 'poison plot' row

Russia's embassy in Prague has asked for police protection for one of its diplomats, who has been named by Czech media amid allegations of a plot to poison Czech politicians.

In 2018, there were 121 Russian diplomats and support staff in Prague, with another 18 at the country's consulates in Brno and Karlovy Vary. It's one of the biggest Russian diplomatic missions in Europe.

Exactly how many are spies using diplomatic cover is known only to Moscow. Privately Czech officials believe it could be as high as 40%.

Czech journalists are now tweeting photos of Mr Konchakov from his Facebook account. One of the most recent shows him surrounded by members of Russia's Night Wolves motorcycle gang, in front of the statue of World War Two Russian general Ivan Konev in Prague.

That's the statue that has now been removed; the act that caused so much anger in Moscow.

Please explain what the 'diplomat' has to do with the removal of the statue. Worth noting Karlsbad or Karlovy Vary as it is now known is largely owned by Russians and was the setting of a recent James Bond 007 movie.

I agree, this needs bombed into his Russaphobe thread. We all know how the USSR operated but people seem to assume Russia is exactly the same now as it was then.

If one were writing propaganda for any country, we could say the same about any diplomat. Are US diplomats in Iraq not spies of some sort? Eyes and ears on the ground?

Either way, this has nothing to do with the thread.....Moby??

[msmoby]

Rosco,

I 'supposedly started this thread and if you can or will not see the poison story is connected to this spat over the Marshall statue...

What is 'russophobic' about wanting an occupiers statue removed....The Russians have been offered it in their embassy, as it keeps getting defaced.

I realise you have not been to the FSU much, recently, but as one who has..and with my RU wife.... I see evidence of young people in Georgia who have no issue with the RU people...but would like parts of their territory back...

There is generally no issue with speaking Russian in Prague or Tbilisi and in all my visits only SC had one taxi driver say "Russian Occupiers, go home.. "

This 'russophobe' had booked the driver via an app, remotely from the UK and heard it on Skype.  I reported the driver and was assured he'd not be working for the company again and got a free ride.

It's a bit like having a statue of  the Duke of Cumberland in ( say) Inverness, to commemorate Culloden.