Ukrainian Boeing 737 crashes in Iran

[Lord of the Dance]

This one looks pretty bad...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukrainian-boeing-737-crashes-in-iran-all-170-aboard-killed-iranian-state-tv/ar-BBYITLH

[BillyB]

American made plane. Happened a few hours after the rocket attack. Coincidence or sabotage? Iran will do a thorough investigation.

[Lord of the Dance]

American made plane. Happened a few hours after the rocket attack. Coincidence or sabotage? Iran will do a thorough investigation.

The thought had occurred to me, but Boeing has also been having some issues with their aircraft lately... it’s a wait-and-see situation for now, I’m afraid.

But in any case, prayers to all involved. What a terrible loss of many innocent lives.

[BillyB]

Boeing has also been having some issues with their aircraft lately...

The model with the sensor problem has been grounded. The plane that crashed wasn't the model that's not allowed to fly.

[Lord of the Dance]

Boeing has also been having some issues with their aircraft lately...

The model with the sensor problem has been grounded. The plane that crashed wasn't the model that's not allowed to fly.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that a similar problem hasn’t developed elsewhere though. Unfortunately Boeing is trying to catch up to Airbus in the lunacy of a fully automated cockpit. For Boeing’s sake I really hope that’s not the case.

[BillyB]

Boeings newest 737 has an added safety feature to save lives by preventing stalling by pilots who are unaware their plane is flying too slow so when the sensor senses the plane about to stall, the computer takes control over from the pilots. The sensor was faulty. Boeing's mistake was trying to deliver planes on time when the anti stalling feature wasn't fully ready. The Ukrainian 737 doesn't have that sensor.

[Lord of the Dance]

Boeings newest 737 has an added safety feature to save lives by preventing stalling by pilots who are unaware their plane is flying too slow so when the sensor senses the plane about to stall, the computer takes control over from the pilots. The sensor was faulty. Boeing's mistake was trying to deliver planes on time when the anti stalling feature wasn't fully ready. The Ukrainian 737 doesn't have that sensor.

I understand what you’re saying Billy, but my point is that it’s entirely possible that this aircraft was brought down by mechanical failure. There are really only four main scenarios that will bring down a plane: pilot error, weather, mechanical failure or foul play. All four need to be investigated, and pilot error or foul play are certainly likely scenarios, but complex aircraft like Boeing’s 737-800NG are certainly susceptible to mechanical failure. The inherent risk of increasing automation on the flight deck is twofold: it exposes the system to more potential for electronic/mechanical breakdown, but it also breeds complacency within the modern flight crew. I am not entirely against automation (and in fact plan to install an automatic pilot in the kit plane I’m currently building), but one cannot dispute the fact that with increased cockpit automation comes increased risks and benefits. Hopefully Boeing will be found blameless in this crash. Like I said, pilot error or foul play are likely causes, but we can’t exclude the aircraft systems yet.

[msmoby]

Boeings newest 737 has an added safety feature to save lives by preventing stalling by pilots who are unaware their plane is flying too slow so when the sensor senses the plane about to stall, the computer takes control over from the pilots. The sensor was faulty. Boeing's mistake was trying to deliver planes on time when the anti stalling feature wasn't fully ready. The Ukrainian 737 doesn't have that sensor.

Boeing cut corners on the 737 Max

They used an existing  design and with bigger engines necessary the natural tendency of the plane is to go nose up on application of power.

The Max had a 6000 page manual and NO mention if the stall prevention system...

[Manny]

Coincidence or sabotage? Iran will do a thorough investigation.

If done by the US, somebody will have shorted Boeing stock right before and made milions.

A very unusual coincidence.

[rosco]

Boeings newest 737 has an added safety feature to save lives by preventing stalling by pilots who are unaware their plane is flying too slow so when the sensor senses the plane about to stall, the computer takes control over from the pilots. The sensor was faulty. Boeing's mistake was trying to deliver planes on time when the anti stalling feature wasn't fully ready. The Ukrainian 737 doesn't have that sensor.

Agreed plus there was a bird strike to one of the sensors, on one of the aircraft which crashed last year.

[rosco]

I had a quick read this morning and it all seems a bit odd. The 737 (max aside) is such a safe aircraft and I also understand it was pretty new, 2016.

There was early speculation that it was engine failure related. It’s seems almost impossible that both engines would fail at the same time unless it’s fuel related or something.

The other bit, which I’ve picked up from my early flying, is that even soon after take off, all aircraft can glide for a given distance and make a forced landing and a reasonable attempt at a belly landing.

The crash scene shows the plane in absolute pieces, suggesting a hard impact either in the air or on the ground. Planes down fall out the sky like a dart unless their wings fall off or explode mid air.

It’ll be an interesting one.

[Markje]

Dutch news was saying this plane was already having problems when it took off from Kiev before crashing on the return-leg starting in Iran.

[Wiz]

Boeings newest 737 has an added safety feature to save lives by preventing stalling by pilots who are unaware their plane is flying too slow so when the sensor senses the plane about to stall, the computer takes control over from the pilots. The sensor was faulty. Boeing's mistake was trying to deliver planes on time when the anti stalling feature wasn't fully ready. The Ukrainian 737 doesn't have that sensor.

Billy watch these 2 videos..... and you will learn a lot!

 

It has been suggested that was a design fault regarding the new bigger engines. They had to reposition the engines because they were very close to the ground,  and by doing so created karger lift on the nose .... so they created the automatic stall prevention system... without advising the Pilots.....in their hand book.

In simple words... Greed above security. So AirBus is doing very well!

[Contrarian]

RIP travelers from Iran to Ukraine...

[BillyB]

The Max had a 6000 page manual and NO mention if the stall prevention system...

The news I get out of Seattle where Boeing is located is that there is pilot training to override the stall prevention system. But there are different levels of training and airlines that paid for cheaper training, their pilots didn't learn how to do that. Boeing is still to blame.

Agreed plus there was a bird strike to one of the sensors, on one of the aircraft which crashed last year.

Bird strikes are known to happen but a bird strike on one sensor shouldn't bring down a plane. There should be a backup plan for the plane to fly should a sensor get damaged. No excuse for Boeing.

There was early speculation that it was engine failure related. It’s seems almost impossible that both engines would fail at the same time unless it’s fuel related or something.

You're right both engines have to fail for the plane to come down. A two engine passenger jet is designed where it can still fly on one engine. Something catastrophic had to happen to that Ukrainian 737. Hopefully the black boxes are recovered and Iran allows the world to learn the truth.

[BillyB]

Boeing plane was only 3 1/2 years old. No reports the pilots radioed in an emergency. Hope they weren't shot down by Iran's military thinking it was a plane used for retaliation after the Iranian rocket attacks. Surely the Iranian military was on high alert after the rocket attacks.

[Steveboy]

I do not fly on Russian planes and for absolute sure I would never step onto a Ukrainian plane..

Im not worried about Boing or a rocket attack... more worrying is poor maintenance .. I do not want to die yet! Done one near death trip on a Russian plane and that was my last..

[MBS01]

Our thoughts and sadness as at least 63 were from Canada!  Many families and academics returning to Canada after the holidays.  Not sure what happened yet, however it was also another Boeing 737!  Plus the war footing in Iran etc.  None of these are good and certainly not for the families lost especially those  who are not now returning home to Canada.

[MBS01]

Our thoughts and sadness as at least 63 were from Canada!  Many families and academics returning to Canada after the holidays.  Not sure what happened yet, however it was also another Boeing 737!  Plus the war footing in Iran etc.  None of these are good and certainly not for the families lost especially those  who are not now returning home to Canada.

[BillyB]

it was also another Boeing 737! 

Iran already made a statement engine caught on fire which resulted in the crash. Engines on the 737 were not made by Boeing. On the Ukrainian 737, they were made by CFM which is a 50/50 joint venture by GE(USA) and Safran(France) engine makers.

Early photos coming out showing shrapnel holes in the wing and fuselage. If it was an accident, Iran should come out admitting it was a military accident. The world isn't going to punish Iran anyway. They want to keep peace and keep Iran in a nuke deal.

[2tallbill]

I understand what you’re saying Billy, but my point
is that it’s entirely possible that this aircraft was
brought down by mechanical failure. .

NOTE to the Russian defenders of all things Russian: I am not
saying that this is what happened! So don't get all puffed up yet.
However, this is what I think the Western media will start going
on about as soon as somebody suggests it. Right now they would
love to hang this on Trump, but the Russians are the second best
boogeymen.


It Sure Looks Like the Ukrainian 737 May Have Been Accidentally Shot Down in Iran
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/iran-plane-737-crash-in-tehran-was-it-shot-down.html



Russia Completes S-300 Delivery to Iran
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2016-11/news-briefs/russia-completes-s-300-delivery-iran

[rosco]

Boeing plane was only 3 1/2 years old. No reports the pilots radioed in an emergency. Hope they weren't shot down by Iran's military thinking it was a plane used for retaliation after the Iranian rocket attacks. Surely the Iranian military was on high alert after the rocket attacks.

You’d like to think that squawk codes and the proximity to a civilian airport at those flight levels, would stop even the dumbest SAM operator from getting confused.

I don’t buy double engine failure and a devastating hard impact. All a bit too odd.

[Contrarian]

it was also another Boeing 737! 

Iran already made a statement engine caught on fire which resulted in the crash. Engines on the 737 were not made by Boeing. On the Ukrainian 737, they were made by CFM which is a 50/50 joint venture by GE(USA) and Safran(France) engine makers.

Early photos coming out showing shrapnel holes in the wing and fuselage. If it was an accident, Iran should come out admitting it was a military accident. The world isn't going to punish Iran anyway. They want to keep peace and keep Iran in a nuke deal.

Source for these early photos?

[BillyB]

You’d like to think that squawk codes and the proximity to a civilian airport at those flight levels, would stop even the dumbest SAM operator from getting confused.

Military purposed jets have been known to disguise themselves as civilian aircraft like the one in the link below. Iranian radar and missile operators know this. Ukrainian plane was delayed an hour before taking off. Possible missile operators thought no planes were schedule to fly in the area that time so assumed it was a military plane in disguise.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/president-erdogans-jet-disguised-itself-as-civilian-aircraft-to-vanish-from-turkey-rebel-jets-radar-a7148051.html

Source for these early photos?

You can google for photos and videos if you don't like the sources below.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10694922/iran-plane-crash-ukrainian-airline-black-box/

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/ukrainian-airliner-crashes-tehran-iranian-media-200108032720868.html

[BillyB]

Wisely, most passenger flights are going around Iran and not over it. Syria still has no passenger flight travelling in their skies. Eastern Ukraine is still being avoided like the plague.

https://www.flightradar24.com/23.81,62.49/4