Help, I might've been carrying a bomb!

[BillyB]

If the stuff that we are not allowed to take on planes is absolutely, positively, not dangerous why can we not take it on planes?

I already said why. They're not going to put a laboratory in airports to confirm the chemical makeup of millions of products that pass through everyday to verify if each item is dangerous or not. There's no practical way learn if millions of passengers bottles of liquid are absolutely, positively safe. It's simpler and cheaper to simply ban ALL liquids. Your water bottle violated the no liquid ban so it was trashed and you were allowed to proceed to your flight. You were not labeled a potential bomber. Now if your large bottle had different compartments holding two liquids that could later be combined or had an electronic device on it, your bottle would be sent to a room away from people, you would be a suspected bomber and you would not be allowed to proceed to your flight. Airport security knows liquid in a bottle by itself is not dangerous unless it's nitroglycerine and nitroglycerine is a stupid liquid for a terrorist to use because it would likely blow up before getting to it's destination. The liquid explosives they would use are stable and needs something to set it off. An electrical charge or getting mixed up with another chemical or liquid which can be done during a flight. Experts have estimated it's okay for people to bring on board liquids 100ml or less. May kill a few people or blow a hole on the side of the plane but the small amount of explosive shouldn't bring down a plane even if combined with another small amount brought on the plane by another terrorist passenger.

[Manny]

They're not going to put a laboratory in airports to confirm the chemical makeup of millions of products that pass through everyday to verify if each item is dangerous or not. There's no practical way learn if millions of passengers bottles of liquid are absolutely, positively safe. It's simpler and cheaper to simply ban ALL liquids.

Not so, I mentioned China:

In Chinese airports they take your bottle and stand it on a scanner thing that bleeps and they hand it you back. Many people have expensive looking reusable water bottles they take on the plane there too. I bet many a Chinese tourist has lost his expensive water bottle in Europe.

What they use is similar to this (skip forward to 1 minute in):

I was just checking the technology and what it might be called and found this article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/new-scanner-liquids-at-airport-security/

That explains why Andrew's water bottle is not a threat on its own and needs to be one of two or more.

A complete ban on carrying liquids onto an aircraft was introduced in August 2006 after a terrorist plotted to take down a transatlantic flight by mixing the liquid components of a bomb on board.

[NS1]

2 things.
1 it is apparent that security is not worried about airport being blown up
   Just planes.
2 Maybe they check 300 people so they don't look bad checking the 4 they want to check

[BillyB]

Not so, I mentioned China:

What they use is similar to this (skip forward to 1 minute in):

I and most travelers hate the liquid ban. Our aviation industry knows this. The video was made in 2013. It's now 7 years later and the American aviation industry has not adopted any liquid detection system that can identify liquids as safe or dangerous. I passed through American and Mexican airports last month and have not seen those machines. I still see signs that show liquid more than 100ml is banned.

Why haven't the American aviation industry adopted those detectors? What are the flaws and weaknesses? You won't find education on that on the internet. Terrorists may eventually learn how to beat those machines. Testing may have shown a particular explosive liquid can't be detected by the machine. Maybe an inside lead, carbon, or gold coating on a Coke can and fool those machines? Those who tested the machines knows what flaws they have but until a better machine is invented, the American aviation industry will continue with the same policy.

We also have to consider the human factor. Workers in airports can be recruited by terrorists. A Somalia plane in 2016 had an explosion happen in mid air. It was suspected that Russian plane flying out of Egypt a few years ago was a victim of the "human factor" too. Even if the liquid detection machine works great, the operator of the machine may not be working great. There must be a process in place that has quality detection of explosives and prevents human error or evil before the liquid ban is lifted.

[Contrarian]

2 things.
1 it is apparent that security is not worried about airport being blown up
   Just planes.
2 Maybe they check 300 people so they don't look bad checking the 4 they want to check

 

[Manny]

Not so, I mentioned China:

What they use is similar to this (skip forward to 1 minute in):

I and most travelers hate the liquid ban. Our aviation industry knows this. The video was made in 2013. It's now 7 years later and the American aviation industry has not adopted any liquid detection system that can identify liquids as safe or dangerous.

Amazingly, an aviation industry exists outside of the US. And as mentioned twice, such a system is already in use in an economy bigger than yours, with more people and one that is more technologically advanced. Go figure.

Theirs is way smaller than the one in the video actually.

[BillyB]

Manny you may have seen a liquid detector at a Chinese airport but that does not mean the Chinese aviation industry embraced liquid detectors.

Air China has liquid bans/restrictions. Here's their current restriction on baggage items

http://www.airchina.com.cn/en/info/travel-prep/baggage/liquid-items/liquid_items_c3.shtml

Regulations of Civil Aviation Administration of China last updated Dec 22 has bans/restrictions on liquids.

https://www.travelchinaguide.com/essential/civil-aviation/

If the Chinese aviation industry wants to eliminate the bans and rely on those detector machines, that's fine by me. They aren't attacked as often. Microsoft has to worry about viruses more than Mac. Hardly anybody attacks Mac products. Hardly anybody wants to bomb a Chinese plane.

[Manny]

Manny you may have seen a liquid detector at a Chinese airport but that does not mean the Chinese aviation industry embraced liquid detectors.

The way you reframe an argument with falsehoods is rather like a Moby Swerve^TM.

It isnt one airport, its multiple. Doesn't matter what it says on the net, like lights in North Korea you think dont exist, I saw them with my own eyes.

You can buy one yourself for $9000. Go and drag the US airlines into this century and make a few bucks.

[BillyB]

Manny you may have seen a liquid detector at a Chinese airport but that does not mean the Chinese aviation industry embraced liquid detectors.

The way you reframe an argument with falsehoods is rather like a Moby Swerve^TM.

It isnt one airport, its multiple. Doesn't matter what it says on the net, like lights in North Korea you think dont exist, I saw them with my own eyes.

It's not Moby swerve. I like to deal with facts. You said the Chinese aviation industry uses those machines. That's not true. I don't care if you saw them with your own eyes. All that means is that a few airports use the machines. It doesn't mean the Chinese aviation industry adopted them.

If a person right now wanted to travel to and within China and asked about carrying liquids on carry on luggage because they wanted to buy a $500 bottle of wine in Shanghai and drink it in Bejing, would you actually tell them there is no restrictions as long as the airport detection machine says the liquid is safe? Will you back that statement up with $500? A traveler can Google Chinese airlines and Chinese industry regulations to see they have restrictions on liquids no different than what America has. China is not leading the way in the aviation industry or more technologically advanced. They are doing what everybody else is doing.

Now you may have seen some videos of news reports on liquid detectors giving them glowing reviews. Did news organizations just stumble on these products at their secret development warehouses? No, the inventors of those products invite news organizations to do a review on them, if not free, a paid review to get the public educated on the product the way they want them educated so it gets the public excited enough to call their governments into buying the products they saw on tv so we can bring our own liquids on planes or combat global warming or shave the whales.

Liquid detectors have been invented 7 or more years ago and still today they are not in widespread use. That should tell you something about the lack of quality, accuracy, and flaws about those devices those infomercials aren't talking about.

[Manny]

Manny you may have seen a liquid detector at a Chinese airport but that does not mean the Chinese aviation industry embraced liquid detectors.

The way you reframe an argument with falsehoods is rather like a Moby Swerve^TM.

It isnt one airport, its multiple. Doesn't matter what it says on the net, like lights in North Korea you think dont exist, I saw them with my own eyes.

It's not Moby swerve. I like to deal with facts.

Lets see.....

You said the Chinese aviation industry uses those machines. That's not true.

No I didn't, I said multiple airports I have visited, go back and reread. Better still, place the quote here where I used that sentence.

I don't care if you saw them with your own eyes. All that means is that a few airports use the machines.

Which is what I said.

It doesn't mean the Chinese aviation industry adopted them.

There you go again imagining I said stuff I didn't.

If a person right now wanted to travel to and within China and asked about carrying liquids on carry on luggage because they wanted to buy a $500 bottle of wine in Shanghai and drink it in Bejing, would you actually tell them there is no restrictions as long as the airport detection machine says the liquid is safe?

English is a tricky language till you get the hang of it. The discussion was about water, not wine.

A traveler can Google.............

Your Google based arguments are specious when countered with actual fact.

China is not leading the way in the aviation industry or more technologically advanced.

Really? How is the 5G connection where you live? The 200mph bullet trains? Do you have robots doing customer service in department stores yet? Or are you all still using swipe credit cards, signing bits of paper and writing each other cheques like its 1982? 

Again for the challenged: Quite a few Chinese airports use liquid detectors and let you carry water through. I have seen that and experienced it. I doubt the ones I have seen are the only ones, and it may not be all of them. I made no reference to "all", "the aviation industry" or "$500 bottles of wine".

Like Andrew notes, it is precious talking with people who can only grasp black and white ideas, who have no concept of shades of grey, that alternative - maybe better - life exists outside the US, and best of all who rely on Google and imagine it trumps what travellers see and experience as if it never happened..........

[BillyB]

Really? How is the 5G connection where you live? The 200mph bullet trains? Do you have robots doing customer service in department stores yet? Or are you all still using swipe credit cards, signing bits of paper and writing each other cheques like its 1982? 

Checks can still be written, electronically used on the computer to send money or set up direct deposit, or at banks to instantly transfer money into someone else's bank. Credit cards are still in use or one can pay by phone at the cash register. 200mph bullet trains? America is big and people prefer to fly on 600mph airplanes to get around. Robots in department stores? Department stores are becoming dinosaurs and going extinct. I can order products on Amazon and they'll arrive same or next day. There are 6689 5G deployments in the world. Over 5000 5G deployments are in America.  America has almost 3 times the 5G than the rest of the World combined. Don't worry about us faltering. The economy is great and life is good over here, especially under Trump.

https://www.speedtest.net/ookla-5g-map

I'm glad we can agree no aviation industry, America, Chinese, or European has adopted liquid detectors. With these facts we can have a more sensible debate about liquids being confiscated at airports as being a smart move or being silly.

[Contrarian]

American made plane. Happened a few hours after the rocket attack. Coincidence or sabotage? Iran will do a thorough investigation.

Boeing has also been having some issues with their aircraft lately...

The model with the sensor problem has been grounded. The plane that crashed wasn't the model that's not allowed to fly.

Boeings newest 737 has an added safety feature to save lives by preventing stalling by pilots who are unaware their plane is flying too slow so when the sensor senses the plane about to stall, the computer takes control over from the pilots. The sensor was faulty. Boeing's mistake was trying to deliver planes on time when the anti stalling feature wasn't fully ready. The Ukrainian 737 doesn't have that sensor.

Boeings newest 737 has an added safety feature to save lives by preventing stalling by pilots who are unaware their plane is flying too slow so when the sensor senses the plane about to stall, the computer takes control over from the pilots. The sensor was faulty. Boeing's mistake was trying to deliver planes on time when the anti stalling feature wasn't fully ready. The Ukrainian 737 doesn't have that sensor.

Boeing cut corners on the 737 Max

They used an existing  design and with bigger engines necessary the natural tendency of the plane is to go nose up on application of power.

The Max had a 6000 page manual and NO mention if the stall prevention system...

The Max had a 6000 page manual and NO mention if the stall prevention system...

The news I get out of Seattle where Boeing is located is that there is pilot training to override the stall prevention system. But there are different levels of training and airlines that paid for cheaper training, their pilots didn't learn how to do that. Boeing is still to blame.

They even use their employes Car park to park
the planes they cannot deliver......
Watch later how many compensations
will have to pay for all grounded airliners.......

Boeing plane was only 3 1/2 years old. No reports the pilots radioed in an emergency. Hope they weren't shot down by Iran's military thinking it was a plane used for retaliation after the Iranian rocket attacks. Surely the Iranian military was on high alert after the rocket attacks.

it was also another Boeing 737! 

Iran already made a statement engine caught on fire which resulted in the crash. Engines on the 737 were not made by Boeing. On the Ukrainian 737, they were made by CFM which is a 50/50 joint venture by GE(USA) and Safran(France) engine makers.

Early photos coming out showing shrapnel holes in the wing and fuselage. If it was an accident, Iran should come out admitting it was a military accident. The world isn't going to punish Iran anyway. They want to keep peace and keep Iran in a nuke deal.

You’d like to think that squawk codes and the proximity to a civilian airport at those flight levels, would stop even the dumbest SAM operator from getting confused.

Military purposed jets have been known to disguise themselves as civilian aircraft like the one in the link below. Iranian radar and missile operators know this. Ukrainian plane was delayed an hour before taking off. Possible missile operators thought no planes were schedule to fly in the area that time so assumed it was a military plane in disguise.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/president-erdogans-jet-disguised-itself-as-civilian-aircraft-to-vanish-from-turkey-rebel-jets-radar-a7148051.html

Source for these early photos?

You can google for photos and videos if you don't like the sources below.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10694922/iran-plane-crash-ukrainian-airline-black-box/

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/ukrainian-airliner-crashes-tehran-iranian-media-200108032720868.html

Wisely, most passenger flights are going around Iran and not over it. Syria still has no passenger flight travelling in their skies. Eastern Ukraine is still being avoided like the plague.

https://www.flightradar24.com/23.81,62.49/4

If Iran didn't shoot down the plane, the black boxes will exonerate them and they should be releasing them soon.

If they did do it and they release the black boxes, you can be sure some data is missing.

More Iranians died on that flight than Americans. It would look like their military is incompetent for killing more Iranians than Americans on the day the Ayatollah designated for revenge.

The Iranian state run news has reported the missile stike killed 80 Americans though. Those religious zealots in charge are big on telling the truth because Allah demands it.

Initial anger is directed at Iran if ruled they're at fault but anger will turn towards the Ukrainian government and those in charge of their aviation. As soon as the Iranian general was killed, The FAA in America banned all American planes from flying in Iranian airspace. Ukraine should know better than anybody since a passenger plane was shot down in their country a few years ago during hostilities.

If I knew my or a family member's flight is flying over an area that just turned hostile, I would cancel the flight if the airline wouldn't or didn't at least promise to fly around that area.

American intelligence report says Iranian air defense radar locked onto Ukrainian passenger plane and two missiles were fired.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/01/09/ukraine-plane-likely-shot-down-iran-missile-report/4419263002/

In other news Russia announces order for two SA-15 TOR replacement missiles from anonymous buyer.

Justkidding.com

BillyB

Been out and about but when I come back home look above what I have found!

You are trying hard to prove that you are more American than those that were born there!

All you have posted it’s shear speculation and propaganda to cover the short comings and mistakes of Boeing

My contribution to this discussion was 2 videos proving that Boeing does not hesitate to cut corners to win over their main competitor and by doing so…….they shoot themselves in the foot!

If the comments on these videos were wrong, I am sure Boeing would have enough muscle to take them down….. but the people talking on the videos are experts!

From your very first post you made, it’s clear the propaganda you have been spewing out and I for a start pay no attention to your comments. All publications and other sources posted on this thread it’s just speculation and propaganda.

In simple terms for you to understand: “If the American Government had/have any real evidence, due to the attention paid to the Iran region now …..they should make them available to the world……..and hit Iran hard ……. if the American Mass Media is correct."

Personally I don’t believe the Iranians would have done such a stupid thing, to hit a civilian aircraft, just after their rockets , fell just outside their targets deliberately. The comments made by your Mafia supported President and then change of his tactics, were obvious, after the slap on his face by the Iranians. The Iranians proved to your President that with their rockets are capable to hit your assets, and avoided to kill American Soldiers…..by Calibrating the Rockets to hit… just outside the Fence! They just proved to their people and supporters that they can hit back…….so no point killing any soldiers.

Do you listen or watch any foreign mass Media?

The investigation for this tragedy has to be carries out by the Iranians, according to international agreements….. and I do not blame the Iranians refusing to give the Black boxes to Boeing and stop talking rubbish…….any parts deleted will be easy discovered by the foreign experts that would be present.

Finally I read that Iran Air has ordered 100 new Airbus planes………Read the  history of Iran Air in wikipedia and see how your country and sanctions destroyed an excellent airline.

Do you expect the Iranians to forgive you for what you have done to their Country?

Manny you may have seen a liquid detector at a Chinese airport but that does not mean the Chinese aviation industry embraced liquid detectors.

The way you reframe an argument with falsehoods is rather like a Moby Swerve^TM.

It isnt one airport, its multiple. Doesn't matter what it says on the net, like lights in North Korea you think dont exist, I saw them with my own eyes.

It's not Moby swerve. I like to deal with facts.

Lets see.....

You said the Chinese aviation industry uses those machines. That's not true.

No I didn't, I said multiple airports I have visited, go back and reread. Better still, place the quote here where I used that sentence.

I don't care if you saw them with your own eyes. All that means is that a few airports use the machines.

Which is what I said.

It doesn't mean the Chinese aviation industry adopted them.

There you go again imagining I said stuff I didn't.

If a person right now wanted to travel to and within China and asked about carrying liquids on carry on luggage because they wanted to buy a $500 bottle of wine in Shanghai and drink it in Bejing, would you actually tell them there is no restrictions as long as the airport detection machine says the liquid is safe?

English is a tricky language till you get the hang of it. The discussion was about water, not wine.

A traveler can Google.............

Your Google based arguments are specious when countered with actual fact.

China is not leading the way in the aviation industry or more technologically advanced.

Really? How is the 5G connection where you live? The 200mph bullet trains? Do you have robots doing customer service in department stores yet? Or are you all still using swipe credit cards, signing bits of paper and writing each other cheques like its 1982? 

Again for the challenged: Quite a few Chinese airports use liquid detectors and let you carry water through. I have seen that and experienced it. I doubt the ones I have seen are the only ones, and it may not be all of them. I made no reference to "all", "the aviation industry" or "$500 bottles of wine".

Like Andrew notes, it is precious talking with people who can only grasp black and white ideas, who have no concept of shades of grey, that alternative - maybe better - life exists outside the US, and best of all who rely on Google and imagine it trumps what travellers see and experience as if it never happened..........

China is a thief of intellectual property including aviation. What Chinese companies can compare to Boeing? No stupid jokes please. Hiccups don’t count.

[Wiz]

(Unnecessary text removed)

China is a thief of intellectual property including aviation. What Chinese companies can compare to Boeing? No stupid jokes please. Hiccups don’t count.

Have you been drinking?

China companies were buying 1 airplane a month.... from Boeing who cannot deliver......because of their Max  and other problems, paying you in Dollars they collected from selling products you cannot afford to build because you are very expensive!

Of course they decided to build their own aircraft C 919 and if you ave problems with theft ..... shut the bloody door and stop moaning.

Are you telling us that USA, its people and its companies have never stolen or copied  other people's property?

May I remind you that after Germany capitulated you stolen/acquired most of its professional brains and other items. Did you acquired "Wernher von Braun" and other professionals to build your rocket program?

I have a feeling that I have seen somewhere this building below!



How dare you, USA people, copy my Greek Heritage and culture monument
" The Parthenon" that now stands proudly as the centerpiece
 of Centennial Park, Nashville's premier urban park.?"
I don't remember anybody asking my permission!

 

[msmoby]

[trolling removed]

China has allowed companies to copy western cars ( Landwing = RR Evoque) to the extent that I will allow them to make kit - but the firmware gets put on in GE / EU

[Olga_Mouse]

Many people have expensive looking reusable water bottles they take on the plane there too.

That's what I'm always doing, too. Carrying an empty bottle across security check, then re-filling it after - either in lounge, or on board before taking off.