How the story turned out for American man & Russian woman: Don't touch me, marry

[TomT]

You realize that the Bunkers were fictional characters, right?

[Valenki]

You realize that the Bunkers were fictional characters, right?

Of course, but you cannot deny that many similar relationships do exist ..... and they endure. THAT is the point I am making.

[Comecon.Chic]

Markje, I bet that there are some jobs in your household that are 'woman' jobs and some that are 'man' jobs. Woe betide you if you try to do a woman job or ask her to do a man job.

For example:
Changing a light bulb - man job
Cutting the grass in the garden - man job
Doing laundry - woman job
Cooking - woman job, but with a shashlyk exception! There's no way she's going to stink of smoke and burnt animals.

Perhaps a little misogynistic,  Mr Andrewfi  !?

I ask as I like gardening and I adore it when a man cooks for me.

[andrewfi]

Perhaps a little misogynistic,  Mr Andrewfi  !?

I ask as I like gardening and I adore it when a man cooks for me.

I do not disagree with you from a western European/USAian perspective however, my lived experience tells me that for many women (and by implication men) in what might loosely be called the FSU, there is a slightly different paradigm in play.

In western Europe/USA we tend to have a paradigm of equal and the same. I was surprised to find a different paradigm in play over here - equal but different.

I was surprised to be upbraided quite strongly by a Czech woman married to a Briton some 20 years ago. She was, until she chose to become a full-time mother, one of the very first female stockbrokers working on the Czech stock exchange. So, by default she was a challenger in the field of role equality in the country.

She said to me that under the previous regime there was full equality in most aspects of life and she, like most women, were happy that nobody expected them since the end of Soviet times to be road builders and bricklayers. She introduced me to the phrase equal but different and I confess that it seems entirely reasonable to me.

Since then, while nobody has ever made the point in quite the same way, in practice, that is the standard to which many people choose to live and work. The examples I gave were actually the ones she gave me back then in terms of how she set out the demarcation lines within the household. She saw her role in the family as being the one who made sure that her husband was always in a mental and physical condition to do his best at providing for her family.

There's no reason that she could not change a lightbulb or sit on the lawnmower as it trundled around the garden of their home near Prague, but she was setting the lines so that she was not overly burdened by work raising the kids and managing the home and that he was still a contributor to the home, not just the means by which money arrived every month.

When living with women here, I have usually had to fight to be able to cook a meal, or run the vacuum cleaner about the house, and usually only win those battles because I work from home.

My English friend, her husband, told me that it had been a surprise to him - he had been surprised at her choice but did his best to follow her rules. She was entirely happy with her choice. I have seen a similar situation on many, many occasions since that time.

My English friend - he, with her support, did exceptionally well for himself and rose at a very early age to the national head of a well-known multinational firm's business in the country. He ended up doing a similar role when he returned to the UK.

I have no way to know whether he would have done as well without the roles set by his wife and her support for him - but knowing him and how he was before meeting and marrying her, I am pretty sure that at least a part of his success was her support, encouragement and the training she provided him. In career terms, he did the best for himself among all the peers with whom I grew up in the UK and was the only one supported under this equal but different paradigm. Without her, I think he'd have ended up as a mid-packing sales manager in some FMCG company in the UK, not a national director in the same type of business.

Yeah, equal but different, I can live with that. After all, nobody should stop a woman from pursuing a career in road building if that's what she wanted. However, to understand and celebrate our differences is to optimise the attributes that are embodied in each gender.

[AvHdB]

Perhaps a little misogynistic,  Mr Andrewfi  !?

I ask as I like gardening and I adore it when a man cooks for me.

I do not disagree with you from a western European/USAian perspective however, my lived experience tells me that for many women (and by implication men) in what might loosely be called the FSU, there is a slightly different paradigm in play.

In western Europe/USA we tend to have a paradigm of equal and the same. I was surprised to find a different paradigm in play over here - equal but different.

I was surprised to be upbraided quite strongly by a Czech woman married to a Briton some 20 years ago. She was, until she chose to become a full-time mother, one of the very first female stockbrokers working on the Czech stock exchange. So, by default she was a challenger in the field of role equality in the country.

She said to me that under the previous regime there was full equality in most aspects of life and she, like most women, were happy that nobody expected them since the end of Soviet times to be road builders and bricklayers. She introduced me to the phrase equal but different and I confess that it seems entirely reasonable to me.

Since then, while nobody has ever made the point in quite the same way, in practice, that is the standard to which many people choose to live and work. The examples I gave were actually the ones she gave me back then in terms of how she set out the demarcation lines within the household. She saw her role in the family as being the one who made sure that her husband was always in a mental and physical condition to do his best at providing for her family.

There's no reason that she could not change a lightbulb or sit on the lawnmower as it trundled around the garden of their home near Prague, but she was setting the lines so that she was not overly burdened by work raising the kids and managing the home and that he was still a contributor to the home, not just the means by which money arrived every month.

When living with women here, I have usually had to fight to be able to cook a meal, or run the vacuum cleaner about the house, and usually only win those battles because I work from home.

My English friend, her husband, told me that it had been a surprise to him - he had been surprised at her choice but did his best to follow her rules. She was entirely happy with her choice. I have seen a similar situation on many, many occasions since that time.

My English friend - he, with her support, did exceptionally well for himself and rose at a very early age to the national head of a well-known multinational firm's business in the country. He ended up doing a similar role when he returned to the UK.

I have no way to know whether he would have done as well without the roles set by his wife and her support for him - but knowing him and how he was before meeting and marrying her, I am pretty sure that at least a part of his success was her support, encouragement and the training she provided him. In career terms, he did the best for himself among all the peers with whom I grew up in the UK and was the only one supported under this equal but different paradigm. Without her, I think he'd have ended up as a mid-packing sales manager in some FMCG company in the UK, not a national director in the same type of business.

Yeah, equal but different, I can live with that. After all, nobody should stop a woman from pursuing a career in road building if that's what she wanted. However, to understand and celebrate our differences is to optimise the attributes that are embodied in each gender.

My experience with women from different cultures is similar to Andrew's. I also dated a woman from the Czech Republic, but her families story was rather unique.

If one looks at the attitude of women from say the North East of the United States, The Netherlands, (South/North Holland) and Kiev they all had different expectations of a relationship. My observation equal but different rules in The East of Europe. Dutch women tend to have more an attitude of I will tolerate you if you do what I say and there American cousins are very entitled and impervious. I suspect one altering factor is what is the background (social, education and economic) of the partner. Caveat; this is a gross generalization and I am certain there many nurturing relations in every region with all groups.

Argue and disagree with any women, that was/is at your own risk!

[andrewfi]

I am perfectly happy to accept a person who supports the idea of equal and the same. But it really does, after having spent time with the equal but different paradigm, seem better to recognise the differences between gender and to optimise for them.

Of course many women could quite accurately say that they were physically much better suited to a life of building roads than I. But I think that most rational people would understand the clear differences in the position of men's and women's bell curves in terms of suitability.

Same, same for child rearing. There's no denying the differences in drivers between men and women here without disregarding the overlap between men and women.

[AvHdB]

There is another element that I am not sure is mentioned upthread. It seems to be more common in the American psyche, that of playing the role of the white knight or rescuer of women in need and protecting her from her dire straits. The threads of RUA regarding dating and relationships is littered with these train wrecks.

It does not help that many of the 'so-called' agencies perpetuated this falsehood for quite a while. Way to many Hollywood movies are made even today on this theme. Perhaps the best line from Hollywood that terminates this sort or relationship is 'Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.'

[andrewfi]

I reckon the White Knight thing, ralmas it certainly is come from somewhere else. A related issue.

If you look at the, often unfortunate, stories on this and other similar forums and sites you'll see a common thread. It isn't universal, but it is certainly frequent.

These white knights are very often guys who have an inappropriate vision of themselves and the women they 'rescue'.

Hmmm... Wassat Andrew, you been drinking?
Nope, not a bit of it.

I think that many of these guys have a picture of 'the last woman in the world'. That is that women are scarce and that if it is not this woman there may be no other woman. That increases their perception of the value of each female contact to that man. They will work harder, do more, put more on the line because they might never get another chance.

A part of this thinking is that because women are scarce they have a relatively high value, higher than the guys perception of his own value. By 'rescuing' a woman from some peril or other (often not a real peril) he is, in his own mind increasing his relative value. In effect he is buying her, or seeking to do so.

Of course most women that become targets of these guys are in no peril, do not need rescuing and, because they understand the process they play up to the weakness of the guy.

If the guys had a more realistic view of women, understood that women are not a scarce resource then what are the chances he'd seek out a woman to rescue? He does the white Knight thing because its his way of acquiring a woman at a bargain price.

And no, I am not talking about money, although that can be part of the process. Look at some here and their antics.

If a man understands that women are like buses or trains - that if he misses one then another will be along very shortly, how motivated would be be to seek out a woman who needs 'rescuing'?
He wouldn't, he'd understand that this is a bad bargain. That he can find a relatively problem free woman easily enough. So why would he waste his time?

From what I have seen, guys who end up with good matches are guys who understand that the man has value and so does the woman.

Of course this tendency for men to have a poor image of their manhood is a cultural issue, as you, AvHdB, noted.

By the way, those who have been around for a while might remember my story. In part a rescue story. However, in that case bad stuff happened whilst I was in a relationship. The peril was real. In my opinion, sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

However I am firmly in the women are like buses camp. And I understand that the other side of the coin is that most women have choices too. We men are not scarce, at least not until we start dying off before the women in our 3rd age!

[Halo]

The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.

How little you understand women.

She is critical because in her eyes, your execution of the chores is subpar.  Therefore, it's easier for her to do them herself, rather than redo them.  That is why she is criticizing you.  Stay in your lane, let her handle hers unless she asks for your help.

[Wiz]

The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.

How little you understand women.

Looks that you don't have any better experience about men too!
All fingers in your hand don't have the same length 

Usual comments from all married women to westerners and born on the USSR years. I have heard them many times before from several Slavic women I met.

Before settling down to marry, my current wife visited me for 1st time on December 2006, in “My Home” to get to know each other” and very soon she told me “that all decisions have to be common decisions, to which I agreed. Of course I was in full knowledge that soon she will start criticizing all my decisions and actions, like cooking, washing the plates etc. Normal sport from all women who like to have the upper hand into their relationships, for various reasons, something that I had already experienced with my previous relationships before meeting her.

Well my wife of the past 14 years, she knows very well my standard answer, when she feels the need to start criticizing me, for whatever I do… It is simple:

“If you think you married a useless husband then the answer is simple! Do it yourself,
 don't criticise me and close your mouth or  Open the door and go home!”

I don't see the reason arguing with her, loosing my temper, just to satisfy her need of showing off her bad habits acquired during her USSR upbringing years.

Please watch this video with Putin and Merkel……

Putin tells Merkel a joke about the wedding night!

 

[AvHdB]

The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.

How little you understand women.

Looks that you don't have any better experience about men too!
All fingers in your hand don't have the same length 

Usual comments from all married women to westerners and born on the USSR years. I have heard them many times before from several Slavic women I met.

Before settling down to marry, my current wife visited me for 1st time on December 2006, in “My Home” to get to know each other” and very soon she told me “that all decisions have to be common decisions, to which I agreed. Of course I was in full knowledge that soon she will start criticizing all my decisions and actions, like cooking, washing the plates etc. Normal sport from all women who like to have the upper hand into their relationships, for various reasons, something that I had already experienced with my previous relationships before meeting her.

Well my wife of the past 14 years, she knows very well my standard answer, when she feels the need to start criticizing me, for whatever I do… It is simple:

“If you think you married a useless husband then the answer is simple! Do it yourself,
 don't criticise me and close your mouth or  Open the door and go home!”

I don't see the reason arguing with her, loosing my temper, just to satisfy her need of showing off her bad habits acquired during her USSR upbringing years.

Please watch this video with Putin and Merkel……

Putin tells Merkel a joke about the wedding night!

I will let Halo defend herself if she so desires. Suffice to say you are both quite wrong in your assumptions.

[Wiz]

I will let Halo defend herself if she so desires. Suffice to say you are both quite wrong in your assumptions.

If you have an opinion why don't you express it openly instead of telling us that we both make wrong assumptions.....?

Ah yes sorry..... you always find an excuse to increase your trolling posts count for the payments of your services to Haifa and you interrupt our conversations!

It is pretty obvious that you have no relationship with any woman.......and from time to time you drops some hints about daughter .... but no mention of any REAL relationships!

Do us a favour..... if you don't have an opinion to offer please don't interrupt our postings, so you can increase your Trolling post count! Use the other post where you are listening Music...and leave us alone to post our views.

[Contrarian]

If you live in a big city, women are like buses. A new one comes along every 15 to 30 minutes. 

At least that's what one of my first Boses who was very old school, told me.