New and Old HiFi - Old Happy Man

[andrewfi]

Confederate, I thought you were taking yourself and your chip elsewhere.

I find that I can learn from pretty much anyone. I have certainly learned from you. Open your mind, try to be less negative. Life will be more fun.

Why are you so unhappy at the moment? Is there something that you'd like to share?

[Contrarian]

Guile,

For regular home speakers, Thiel have always been highly recommended.

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1085thiel/index.html

High quality speakers deserve a similar quality amplifier.

https://www.psaudio.com/products/sprout100-integrated-amplifier/?gclid=CjwKCAjw2Jb7BRBHEiwAXTR4jfdC2_4cqbrSOMLoTCiwrBGYVBKtCAcP8wDGKPMc2FX-dM9UBbDBoRoCx0cQAvD_BwE#tab-features

[Contrarian]

Review of Denon DCD 2560.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/denon-dcd-2560-cd-player

This did actually turn out to be an odd review, I wonder if the player he got had some sort of defect?

All the other reviews were mostly very positive.

I saw a used one advertised for $135.

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/denon/dcd-2560.shtml

[Guile]

hey Confederate thanks for the links. I will check it out.  I got neighbours to be mindful of otherwise I'd go with a full speaker set.  Also although I like great audio I'm pretty content  with a mini-system. I am not inclined to spend thousands on separate pieces and build it to spec.  I'm a musician but not an audiophile.

Most of the music I listen to now is live stuff on Youtube or bootleg live concerts and I stream it wirelessly via bluetooth on my system.  Works for me.

[Contrarian]

hey Confederate thanks for the links. I will check it out.  I got neighbours to be mindful of otherwise I'd go with a full speaker set.  Also although I like great audio I'm pretty content  with a mini-system. I am not inclined to spend thousands on separate pieces and build it to spec.  I'm a musician but not an audiophile.

Most of the music I listen to now is live stuff on Youtube or bootleg live concerts and I stream it wirelessly via bluetooth on my system.  Works for me.

That's the important thing, do what works for you.

The Sprout amplifier by PS Audio I linked above has bluetooth.

I see you someday in a large luxurious house and then at that point in time you may want to get a full sized stereo system.

Until then enjoy what you have!

I may start streaming some music pretty soon but for now I still like the nostalgia of playing CD's and before that we had cars with Cassette player/radios, my old classic still has one.

[Contrarian]

Is vintage HiFi better?

         

[andrewfi]

Just been going through some tapes I ordered a few days ago. All are 4 track stereo at 7.5 ips.
I picked stuff I already knew I'd enjoy.
Copland's 3rd symphony
Resphigi's Fountains/Pines of Rome
Several trumpet concerti, always fun!
And highlights from Bizet's Carmen and L'Arlesienne. I've never heard the last one before.

The Copland one was pretty cool. It was made in 1959, so the tape is older than I am. It looked like it had never been played as it still had the adhesive tape tab on the leader. This was a very early 4 track stereo recording and the first recording of this piece in stereo in any format.

It sounds bloody marvellous. It is available in digital formats but, of course, it can't sound better than the copies of the original master tapes that still exist.

The only quibble I had was a bit of print through at the end of the tape where the longer recording could just be heard through the tape where there should've been silence. I had a quick listen to the Spotify version but have no opinion on the comparison at the moment. One thing is certain, there's no way an LP version could sound better. It's just not possible.

The other tape I have had time to go at was the Carmen. This was a treat. From about 1965. Recorded in Phase 4 stereo. A pretty advanced and exciting recording system. Not entirely natural but fun to listen to. I used to love to listen to Gilbert and Sullivan opperettas as a kid and I always looked for the Phase 4 versions. Purists don't much like them. Obviously I am no purist.

The Copland tape cost 7.95 in 1959. Today that'd be about $72. A man had to be a bit keen on his music to pay that kind of cash!  I paid about $26 including delivery.

BTW, yeah, Andrew Robinson quite likes the old hi-fi. He's caught the bug. I started 40 odd years ago. I think I mentioned it up thread.

Here's the thing about 'old hi-fi' if you can buy a good amplifier, for example, from the golden age which would be late 70s to early 80s at a good price then even if, in absolute terms, hi-fi is better now than it was back then, when you consider what you'd get today for the same money as that old thing then you can be pretty sure that you will have a better sounding piece of equipment than you could buy for that money today. Not only that, it will probably be better made and look better too.

IIRC Andrew Robinson lobbed out about $200 for his first Kenwood vintage amp. It would have been great back in the day. Still is great today - but not the best. But how much would you spend to better it with today's equipment?

Like my speakers. Made in about 1987. Sold until 2004, I think. There's an equivalent in the B&O lineup, very similar. I paid £800 for mine. You'd pay about £5000 today. Are the new ones better? Yes, absolutely! Are they worth paying £4200 to upgrade? Absolutely not.

Could you buy 'better' quality modern speakers for £800? I am sure that you couldn't but speakers are more of a matter of taste and prejudice than any other element in the system.

[AvHdB]

Interesting post, while I like the 3rd of Copland there is something vibrant about Billy the Kid. Sort of wonder if you would like L. Janacek* or I. Stravinsk? Please post your favourites in the songs/music thread!

How easy is it to get reel to reel of the above?

* Sorry I am to lazy to get the accent marks correct.

[BC]

Dynaco ST-70 + JBL 4301's   A thousand buck starter setup beats many pricy hi end systems.  A lot of fun if you're an electronics tinkerer like me, rebuilding, modding, refoaming etc.

I use an apple airport express to beam music to 'em.  Really great for 60's and 70's music but will blow your mind with today's modern music as well.

Pioneer A-400 amp is also a charm if you're not into the tube thing.

I would like to try some Rogers LS series speakers next, difficult to find a good deal though.

[BC]

Here's more info on the apple airport express used as DAC

https://kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm

[andrewfi]

Avhdb, honestly I am no connoisseur of music. The Copland 3rd Symphony I knew for incorporating Fanfare For The  Common Man. I knew nothing of Billy The Kid until I read a review of the original recording back in 1959 where the reviewer slammed the 3rd in comparison to Copland recording of Billy The Kid.

Getting tapes is easy enough as long as one manages one's expectations. Bear in mind that this is a new journey for me so mistakes will be made and prices will be paid!

If one has specific requirements in terms of recorded material such as a particular album or artiste then you're going to have difficulty in satisfying your cravings.

Reel to reel as a prerecorded format was over by the early 70s. The decent quality 7.5ips recordings had become rare by that time. Most issues were 3.75ips from the mid-60s.

Reel to reel tape recordings were expensive so that limited the music offered, as a generalisation, to stuff that a well-heeled, middle aged, man would buy.

You can get tapes from eBay, I have an account on a music database site called discogs.com. Discogs is like eBay for recorded music which is easier to search and seems to have lower prices. There's also some sites dedicated to selling old recordings in all sorts of formats.
I bought a tape from these guys: http://www.analogicmc.com/ it's now sitting in customs until I pay vat on it. Look at that site for a sampling of what's available and pricing. They ain't the cheapest place to buy but you'll get a sense of the scale of prices.

As the primary purpose, for me, of the reel to reel deck is to enjoy music that is at its best on that format I have settled on some criteria:
1) tape speed 7.5ips
2) only going to buy 4 track stereo
3) tape condition is more important than packaging condition
4) not going to pay 'collector premium' to buy a specific tape
5) I will buy tapes that call out to me but in large part this will be for 'perfomances' so that means classical and jazz rather than anything that might've hoped to be in the sales charts of the day.

The last point goes to the way the format works. Putting on a tape is more of a fag than an LP. So one puts on something and then settle down to listen, rather than merely hear. So one plays music to suit the style. No skipping from track to track, artiste to artiste. It's more relaxing and involving than using Tidal or Spotify.

[andrewfi]

BC, I'm not much of a tinkerer. I enjoy the equipment and the noises it makes but I can absolutely understand that side of things

I just like getting the value for money that comes with buying older equipment from a short period in time that was a golden age for HI-FI. A few years where technology had advanced to give us almost perfect sound, where the market was big enough to drive innovation, quality and value, and before manufacturers started to reduce quality to cut costs.

[BC]

Andrew,

Indeed there is good value in vintage equipment.  For those just getting into audio, suggest borrowing a decent amp and first test speakers at home before buying, then work backward for the rest of your setup. Relying on what you hear in a 'perfect' store speaker room environment can be deceiving.  Even throwing down a couple of rugs and different speaker placement of an existing setup can make a huge difference.

[andrewfi]

BC, there's another advantage of buying old equipment. Try it at home for a long as you want. If you don't want to keep it then sell it on. Chances are that you'll get at least what you paid for it.

With regard to the listening environment, I had a little surprise recently. When I installed the tape deck I put it on a shelf unit just below eye height. The positioning of the shelf unit meant that the speakers were moved further apart. At the same time, I connected everything through my Beocenter 9000. The speakers were now about 10' apart maybe 2' more than before.

I was unhappy. The stereo image was gone. Voices were no longer anchored to my TV when watching video. The previously invisible speakers were now there, easily detectable as the source of the sounds.

I found myself looking for preamp upgrades. Naim, Meridian, Quad, all came up on my screen as I looked at writing off the B&O.

But then I had a thought, what if I moved the speakers closer together. Not much movement was feasible. But I tried. Moving each speaker just 3" toward the other made everything perfect. Invisible speakers, TV sound coming from the TV, each instrument and voice with its own position.

Just 3" made the difference between enjoying what I already have and looking for something new.

[BC]

Yes, placement is everything... even changing the distance to the wall/corners can greatly improve bass.

Back in the mid-'70s, I used to hang around the audio center at the military bases.  GI's were really into it.  The speaker's room was the most fun.  Compared to today, music back then wasn't mixed with the chest-thumping bass we hear today (except for highly synthesized groups like Pink Floyd), so folks were more into the big box speakers with huge woofers to get some bass back. It was a race to see who could fit the most drivers into a box when only two or maybe three are needed LOL.

Very few liked the futuristic (for back then) sleek, stylish B&O, thinking they must sound tinny.  They rarely set one up in the sound rooms, but when they did, people would almost always smile and ask which speakers are playing   As far as reel to reel, Technics, Akai, Teac, and if you could afford it and didn't mind the style, Revox was the way to go, all big 10.5 inch reels.  Folks would record their fresh LP's into a good mix and just let it roll all day to keep from scratching them (sort of like what we do with today with Spotify, amazon music, etc.).

Enemy of vintage amps and other equipment are the electrolytic and some other types of capacitors that WILL be degraded and electrically leaky after several decades matter who made it, whether used or not, even if they still look mint.  Getting capacitors replaced is a must.  It greatly affects performance but can cause very severe damage as well.  Please don't wait for them to pop and blow magic smoke.  There are some in speaker crossovers as well.  A reputable vintage dealer knows this and will have them replaced, which is why some customers think their prices are too high. It can add up to several hundred bucks to get it done.  Just ask if it has been 'recapped,' and if the salesperson looks puzzled, get an estimate first from a good electronics technician before you buy.


 

[andrewfi]

Yes, the capacitor thing can be important but as far as I know it's not inevitable.
My feeling, right now is That none of my stuff is forever. Also, failure is not symptomless.

When something sounds wrong I might get work done - or just find new toys! There's no shortage of great equipment.

The sole exception might be the tape machine! Those are going up in price. Just four or five years ago my machine could be bought for less than a couple of hundred Euro. It just cost me almost 500 Euro! Touch wood,it is mechanically and electronically sound. I am awaiting delivery of new belts and a pinch wheel 'just in case'.

The Beocenter will never, I think, be worth more it is today at about 300 Euro. The speakers - I don't know. There's still a direct replacement in the current lineup so always 'new' secondhand to keep the kid on prices.

I'm a user rather than collector. Perhaps selfish!

[Manny]

Indeed there is good value in vintage equipment.  For those just getting into audio, suggest borrowing a decent amp and first test speakers at home before buying, then work backward for the rest of your setup.

I’m thinking of doing it the other way. I know zero about this stuff, only I’d like better sound than my modern cheap box and speakers put out. I’ve heard Andrew’s speakers in situ and was blown away. I was going to start with the speakers and then see what I need to add to feed them to make the sound quality I’d like.

I dunno if that’s a wrong way to go. What makes me cautious is to get anything near the level of knowledge that Andrew has I would have to do years of learning and spend many thousands of pounds. And I’m worried that if I start with a nice set of speakers, before you know it you’re down the wormhole and £10,000 and years of learning later you’ve got what you finally want.

I haven’t got the appetite to learn it as a subject. But I appreciate vintage electronics, B&O design, and Andrew’s speakers are right down my street on a number of levels.

It’s difficult to know where to start really. That’s the only reason I haven’t pressed the button and bought the speakers already.

[Contrarian]

Other than Andrew's speakers, which have you heard that you really like?

These are a good value and worth a listen.

https://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-Performance-Speakers-Drivers/dp/B07BRNHFKR/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ascsubtag=whathifi-us-4377717273589430000-20&dchild=1&keywords=Fyne+Audio+F302&qid=1601154161&sr=8-3&tag=georiot-us-default-20

[Contrarian]

These probably compare well with Bowers & Wilkins, a British manufacturer of speakers.

https://www.audioadvice.com/focal-chora-826-3-way-floorstanding-loudspeaker-each+color-Black?gclid=Cj0KCQjwzbv7BRDIARIsAM-A6-3LjFAtEAJ0Bf-aZo3RASgqFOe0kMiIdLQDuL8M9YwDQDYz-TVH2WwaAl_0EALw_wcB

[Contrarian]

Speaking of Bowers & Wilkins, here's a great review on the 700 S2 speakers.

https://www.audioadvice.com/videos-reviews/bowers-wilkins-700-s2-series-overview/

[BC]

I’ve heard Andrew’s speakers in situ and was blown away.

If you like what you heard with your fav music, go for it!

[Manny]

I’ve heard Andrew’s speakers in situ and was blown away.

If you like what you heard with your fav music, go for it!

I know, but it seems like some kind of sacrilege feeding them from some little department store Sony box. So then I might be disappointed, £800 in, and will have to upgrade the box, and that is where the learning starts.

That said, the Bang & Olufsen speakers are a piece of art on their own.

In the 1980s, in the small apartment I had as a teenager, with some secondhand hi-fi equipment that people would find collectable now, I bought a big pair of Wharfedale speakers that would look more in place in the disco (I bet my neighbours despised me and my Dire Straits, Prefab Sprout, ZZ Top and Art of Noise). I’ve never heard sound quality similar until I heard Andrews.

[andrewfi]

Manny, those speakers will plug straight into your TV. Nothing else required. You can probably even play music from Spotify through the TV. For years that's exactly what I did with the Sony speakers that I bought 25 years ago!

That's a normal use case for the Beolab 8000s and the replacements the Beolab 18s.

The other stuff I have is because I like to play and listening to music is quite an important part of my life. I decided I wanted an upgrade!

For everyone else, remember, for many people including myself, it's not just the sound that the speakers make that's important.

Other factors include ease of use, appearance, size, brand reputation and somewhere down the list, price.

I like the speakers I have. However the speakers they replace made by Sony, they were very similar in many ways. They had a built in amplifier (new ones have two in each speaker) because that's convenient and very often makes for a better listening experience. They have a very small footprint, almost identical. They both work well against a wall because I really don't want speakers that need to be 3' or more away from the wall. The Beolab speakers look great and sound hugely better than the Sony pair.

I can't imagine recommending speakers without knowing about all those other factors. Here's an essential truth: in most cases, the most important reason for choosing a pair of speakers is not about how they sound!

Here's another essential truth: in most cases, almost anything bought today will sound better than what is already in the room!

So, BC is about spot on! Manny has seen the Beolabs in my room. He knows that he likes the sound (that's a bonus). More importantly he can see how they will fit into his room and lifestyle without making Olya mad. In fact, I bet that if she's seen pics of the things that she already loves them!
Oh, the price is right too! He's going to end up with a hi-fi that's going to sound great and it's going to cost him about £700 - 800! It'll sound and perform better than anything he could buy from a hi-fi specialist for several times as much money.

Some people get too focused on the wrong things - perhaps that characteristic also shows up in other areas of their lives?

[andrewfi]

Oh, one point. I spent just shy of £1000 bringing those speakers over from the UK. I bought them without having heard them. I had heard them back when I was selling hi-fi in the early 80s but I don't think that can really count. The reason I bought them from all the others I could've chosen was because everything except the sound fitted the bill.

The reputation of the brand and model sealed the deal. The chances I would not like them were so small it wasn't worth consideration.

[Manny]

) More importantly he can see how they will fit into his room and lifestyle without making Olya mad. In fact, I bet that if she's seen pics of the things that she already loves them!

She has no opinion on such stuff as she knows less about it than me. She knows I don’t buy crap, do research and get most things right. She’ll like the sound and nobody can argue with timeless design. If her eclectic taste from Vivaldi to Liam Gallagher sounds better on it, she’ll be happy.

OK, I’m buying some...