My Visit to North Korea. A Look Inside the DPRK.

[Omega1982]

Manny did you take any photos of the metro?  I've seen a couple of photos and the stations are beautiful works of art.  Much like the Moscow and Tashkent metros.  I actually didn't like the metro in Kiev.  and its supposed to be very clean and efficient. 

The US lacks a decent transportation system and on top of that most of the US isn't exactly walkable.  I found Minsk, Moscow and Kiev to be very walkable cities and with an excellent transportation infrastructure.  It's one of the several reasons I would love to live in either one of these three lovely cities. 

[BillyB]

He knew the rules and cultural norms before he went and chose to ignore them.

Kids in our two nations know the rules and cultural norms even better yet they still break the rules at some points of their life.  Otto probably thought if he got caught stealing a poster, he'd get a slap on the hand. If it were your kid that did what Otto did, even though you warned him/her before visiting N Korea, and the result were the same as Otto's, would you be okay with the outcome? I know Otto's parents weren't happy.

[Guile]

There's a cool show called "Locked up abroad".. people who drug smuggled into countries and ended up in jail.  Some even get the death penalty.  Stupid thing to do but then again there are always stupid people.

A guy was arrested in the UAE for having a poppy seeds and a pot cake. 10 years in jail:

https://www.thenational.ae/uae/man-caught-at-dubai-airport-with-marijuana-cake-and-poppy-seeds-jailed-for-10-years-1.158380

Not fair to us but some countries are strict.

[Manny]

This side discussion about dating in Asia is now here: Dating in South East Asia, Korea and China

[rosco]

No need to take unnecessary risk.  That's why I won't go to Dubai. Seems like a hot tourist spot now but they still are under Muslim law.  No alcohol.  You can go to prison for unpaid debts.

Not true and another case of you speculating about a place you've never visited.

Dubai is in fact very safe and there's no reason to be concerned whatsoever. The odd newsworthy story pops up every now and again but there's always more to it than just a westerner getting jailed for holding hands etc. Unpaid debts is another term for stealing, the courts in the UK don't look kindly on it either. They just handle it in a more strict manner over there.

There's also probably more alcohol in Dubai than there is in all the distilleries in Scotland. You can get whatever you want in many many places all over the city. Lots of people socialise in restaurants, bars, cocktail venues and nightclubs and there's never an issue.

I've done it a few times myself and the place isn't how you think it is. 

[rosco]

I knew an Afghan guy who told me when he was a child at soccer games, the authorities would stop the game and announce what some people did. They'd say this guy stole and would then chop off his hand. This guy ran from the police and they would chop off his foot. Some got their heads chopped off.

Islamic culture is quite gruesome but even so, we all know that they don't just rock up to kids football matches, stop the game, announce crimes off the cuff and deliver a gruesome punishment to an unsuspecting innocent person.

The football stadium is the venue for local punishment, people turn up to watch criminals convicted under some muslim law, get punished. I don't support it but it's not how you think it happens Billy.

I think Manny answered your North Korean prison camp stuff but it's quite funny listening to the irony coming form a USAian. I watched a documentary recently and it was about the ridiculous amount of US citizens who are incarcerated. It painted a very bleak picture of the US and the business that is the prison system. I forget the stats but the US has the highest number of citizens locked up, many for minor offences.

Yet Guile wont visit Dubai. 

[Guile]

Dubai is in fact very safe and there's no reason to be concerned whatsoever. The odd newsworthy story pops up every now and again but there's always more to it than just a westerner getting jailed for holding hands etc. Unpaid debts is another term for stealing, the courts in the UK don't look kindly on it either. They just handle it in a more strict manner over there.

I've done it a few times myself and the place isn't how you think it is.

well if you wanna go to Dubai by all means! It's a hot desert in the Middle East which through oil money sprouted up from nowhere.  Holds no interest for me.  The Greek islands  or Ibiza are better.  And closer.

[Manny]

The side discussion on Libya has been relocated from this topic.

Discussion on Libya Before and After the US Invasion

[Manny]

Manny did you take any photos of the metro?  I've seen a couple of photos and the stations are beautiful works of art.  Much like the Moscow and Tashkent metros.  I actually didn't like the metro in Kiev.  and its supposed to be very clean and efficient. 

I did. I went on the Metro, got off at a few stations and wandered around.

Yes, they are very reminiscent of the Moscow Metro. One goes down a very loooooooong escalator, and the stations themselves are spotlessly clean - as is everywhere in the DPRK - and the decor is rather grand as you suggest.

The train carriages are ex Berlin, so there is some graffiti scratched on the hard surfaces here and there in German from those days.

I put a few images and two very short videos onto a single video here.

Members will notice that contrary to the propaganda we are fed, the people you can see here look reasonably well dressed, active and not suffering poverty; nobody looks malnourished or emaciated. 

I have a little tale from the Metro:

My fellow travellers, two guides and I were on the Metro. I noticed one local gentleman wearing a very interesting and familiar looking watch, but it had some insignia on it. I put my glasses on to get a better look. The guide asked me what had caught my attention. I told her, she said something to the guy, he took off his watch and passed it to me to look at. It was an Omega Constellation probably of late 1980s/early 1990s vintage with party insignia on the face (I have a bi-metal Constellation from the mid 90s - why it looked familiar). I examined it, thanked him and gave him his watch back.

I asked the guide how come a regular guy was in possession of what is probably a $3000-$5000 watch in the west. She explained that the guy had done something particularly good for the party, performed a great service or some such, and that watch was awarded to him as an award for exemplary service. So that is why a regular North Korean guy on the Metro is wearing a $5000 watch. It is a country of contradictions.

[BillyB]

Members will notice that contrary to the propaganda we are fed, the people you can see here look reasonably well dressed, active and not suffering poverty; nobody looks malnourished or emaciated. 

I've never seen propaganda that said people in Pyongyang were suffering. There's always a certain segment of society that does very well even in the poorest nations.

Were you able to walk up to citizens, shake their hands, introduce yourself and have a conversation? I'd be curious of what they think is happening outside their country if they are willing to talk.

[Omega1982]

Manny did you take any photos of the metro?  I've seen a couple of photos and the stations are beautiful works of art.  Much like the Moscow and Tashkent metros.  I actually didn't like the metro in Kiev.  and its supposed to be very clean and efficient. 

I did. I went on the Metro, got off at a few stations and wandered around.

Yes, they are very reminiscent of the Moscow Metro. One goes down a very loooooooong escalator, and the stations themselves are spotlessly clean - as is everywhere in the DPRK - and the decor is rather grand as you suggest.

The train carriages are ex Berlin, so there is some graffiti scratched on the hard surfaces here and there in German from those days.

I put a few images and two very short videos onto a single video here.

Members will notice that contrary to the propaganda we are fed, the people you can see here look reasonably well dressed, active and not suffering poverty; nobody looks malnourished or emaciated. 

I have a little tale from the Metro:

My fellow travellers, two guides and I were on the Metro. I noticed one local gentleman wearing a very interesting and familiar looking watch, but it had some insignia on it. I put my glasses on to get a better look. The guide asked me what had caught my attention. I told her, she said something to the guy, he took off his watch and passed it to me to look at. It was an Omega Constellation probably of late 1980s/early 1990s vintage with party insignia on the face (I have a bi-metal Constellation from the mid 90s - why it looked familiar). I examined it, thanked him and gave him his watch back.

I asked the guide how come a regular guy was in possession of what is probably a $3000-$5000 watch in the west. She explained that the guy had done something particularly good for the party, performed a great service or some such, and that watch was awarded to him as an award for exemplary service. So that is why a regular North Korean guy on the Metro is wearing a $5000 watch. It is a country of contradictions.

I wonder how many people would take off their Omega watch in the New York subway and pass it down to a complete stranger. 

Just goes to show how safe the place is. 

I heard similar stories of Spain under Franco. 

[Omega1982]

Manny how was the shopping?  They're an industrial nation, so I imagine there's a lot of manufacturing. 

One of the joys of traveling, when an exchange rate is favorable is the shopping.   

In basic economics we learn that each country has its own natural resources and some countries are better at producing some items than others. 

Apart from the posters and political propaganda I wonder what else is there. 

[Omega1982]

Manny are they manufacturing smartphones over there?  N. Korea has a wealth of rare earth minerals and I would imagine they have the technological know how for the manufacturing process. 

[Manny]

Were you able to walk up to citizens, shake their hands, introduce yourself and have a conversation?

My lack of Korean language might just make that hard. There was a woman in our group who was born in South Korea but now lives abroad, she was getting involved with locals everywhere she went. She was free to converse with anyone.

Manny how was the shopping? They're an industrial nation, so I imagine there's a lot of manufacturing.

I got some local stuff, ginseng tea, chocolates and the like. I dont do so much shopping when travelling. I didn't discuss manufacturing so much.

Manny are they manufacturing smartphones over there?  N. Korea has a wealth of rare earth minerals and I would imagine they have the technological know how for the manufacturing process. 

They do have their own brand of phone everyone seems to have, but I'm not sure where its made. I heard they have some minerals that are required for certain chips, and there is a demand for that, but it's not a subject I delved into deeply.

[Manny]

Another place they took us to was the circus.

In the article by the US lawyers I linked to previously here, they also went to the same circus and I agree with what they wrote about it:

International relations can sometimes seem like a circus. So it was no surprise when we found ourselves one evening attending a circus performance in Pyongyang. It was a Cirque du Soleil type performance, with acrobats, ice-skating, and a live orchestra. The breathtaking spectacle was made more remarkable by the presence of a large number of soldiers and sailors in the audience who laughed loudly at the clowns and comics and oohed and aahed like the rest of us at the high wire acts. The monolithic robotic repressive army described in the western press became as it appears, a mere figment of the imagination, as we shared joy and laughter rather than threats and rhetoric. We realized that the governments of nations often forget that the alleged “enemy” is really made up of people with hearts and feelings, and that armies are often staffed by teenagers and young men and women. We are walking a tightrope in a nuclear standoff, but for a moment, all differences faded and smiling together at the folly of humanity ruled the day.

The circus also further dissolved the stories of North Korea’s isolation. People attending came from different parts of the world, and from everyday North Koreans as well. But most surprising was when a young man who asked in English where we were from approached us after the performance. It turned out he was with a group of tourists from… South Korea!

For anyone interested, here is a taste of that.

[andrewfi]

Billy, if you disbelieve what an eyewitness known to you tells you then there's an easy solution. get on the big silver bird and visit North Korea. Why not give it a whirl. Scales might fall, even from your eyes.

[BillyB]

Billy, if you disbelieve what an eyewitness known to you tells you then there's an easy solution. get on the big silver bird and visit North Korea. Why not give it a whirl. Scales might fall, even from your eyes.

Andrew, if you disbelieve what an eyewitness who escaped N Korea tells you, then there's an easy solution, get on a plane and go live(not visit) where he/she lived, if you're even allowed to do so, to get the FULL N Korea experience.

I'm enjoying Manny's trip report even though he went to places where they wanted to take him.

[NS1]

I suspect if they had bad areas or ugly areas or extreme
poverty, the tour would not have shown you these.

I expect it not to be as bad as the folks on the outside
make it to be, But I suspect its not as great as the folks
on the inside wish you to believe either.

Personally, I have no great desire to live in any country like this.
Visit maybe.

[rosco]

I suspect if they had bad areas or ugly areas or extreme
poverty, the tour would not have shown you these.

I expect it not to be as bad as the folks on the outside
make it to be, But I suspect its not as great as the folks
on the inside wish you to believe either.

Personally, I have no great desire to live in any country like this.
Visit maybe.

Agreed but like I said, we don’t bus American & Canadian tourists round the nasty parts of Scotland, letting them interview wasters.

We show them what we want them to see.

[andrewfi]

Billy, I know that you do not understand this stuff and so the following words will mean nothing to you, but here goes. Those who 'flee' from the DPRK are massively incentivised to tell lurid stories. They gain income and security by doing so. Very often they have very good reasons to seek to escape the country, reasons that do not reflect well upon them.

Now, you have told us that you escaped from a country with a repressive regime. You display the hyper-cooperative nature of many such people. There are all sorts of reasons why people exhibit such behavior but it is common. At the very least, why would anyone give succour to a person whose motivation for 'escaping' leaving behind his responsibilities and obligations, was that the food was better in South Korea? Such people need a story to tell and they will be helped to tell it.

You may have left behind a genuinely unpleasant situation. It seems that this is not likely to be the case, today, in North Korea.

Coincidentally, right now, I am in contact with a person who is facing exactly the same dilemma as I outlined above. This person has moved illegally from one country to another. The reasons are not the obvious ones, but the outcome is very commonplace. The easy choice is to claim political asylum. Others have done the same and found accepting ears.

The reason to not do as others have done? The stories others tell are very largely untrue. This person does not want to lie, conscience fights against it. But the lies are the chosen narrative of the country in which this person now lives. Lying, badmouthing the country of origin, brings money, work, housing, health care and security. A better standard of living than the origin country.

What's a person to do in such a case?
Self interest and self preservation make the choice obvious.

My guess, Billy, is that you never needed to address issues of conscience, the choice might've been easier, or perhaps made for you. The impact upon you though is the same. You become a willing, but largely unknowing, conduit and mouthpiece of accepted and acceptable 'truth'. A true patriot of your adopted home in the least useful and wholesome form.

[BillyB]

Agreed but like I said, we don’t bus American & Canadian tourists round the nasty parts of Scotland, letting them interview wasters.

We show them what we want them to see.

I had a friend who visited Scotland a couple of years ago. They toured all over Scotland on their own free will seeing whatever they wanted to see. There were no barriers or guards to keep the Scots from fleeing. Andrew somehow wants me to believe there are no difference between freedoms and quality of life between N Koreans and elsewhere. He's wasting his breath on me.

[Manny]

Agreed but like I said, we don’t bus American & Canadian tourists round the nasty parts of Scotland, letting them interview wasters.

We show them what we want them to see.

I had a friend who visited Scotland a couple of years ago. They toured all over Scotland on their own free will seeing whatever they wanted to see. There were no barriers or guards to keep the Scots from fleeing.

Scotland is not comparable to North Korea. That one can freely wander in Scotland and not in North Korea is not really comparing oranges with oranges now is it?

[Manny]

Something else I got to do was have a go in a military shooting range. I did two bouts, one with an Anschutz rifle, and one with a Russian pistol.

So choose your weapon.............



My pistol of choice was this one............



This woman offers basic instruction and loads your gun as you go............



I'm no expert at shooting but I'm not bad. One of my guides offered me a competition with her, the prize was a block of chocolate, and although I did quite well, she thrashed me. 

Turns out she had done six months in the army as women are encouraged to do. This enables almost everyone able to use a gun in the event the US Imperialist Aggressors decide to try and invade them again.

[andrewfi]

Of course, as our benighted cousins across the water keep telling us, guns keep them free.

In a state where almost every adult knows how to use a gun and millions of them have a gun at their side, North Koreans must either be as happy with their lot as USAians, or the USAians who think their guns give them freedom are somehow deluded.

Or, more likely, in the minds of those whose heads are hurting from all the cognitive dissonance will tell us - every person who has a gun or knows how to use them is either a hypnotized automaton or a paid agent of the Korean state.

[NS1]

I would have won with a rifle, handgun no.

I just completed course and licence for restricted weapons ( handguns)
So I am about to learn.


Rosco, you are correct, but I like to wander, so if ever I get to Scotland ( would like to)
I will rent a car and wonder around, never going to happen in North Korea.
Yes Cuba is communist country and you can wander their.
NK is a unique scenario, not  oranges to oranges,
more like oranges to rocks lol.